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The Heartbeat Bill: THIS may be the case that changes the culture (and overturns Roe v. Wade)

Several pro-life bills have been introduced in the Ohio legislature, but the one that I especially hope inspires identical bills in each of the other 49 states is the one they call the “Heartbeat Bill.” More than any other mere piece of legislation, this is the bill that could change millions of hearts and minds on the abortion issue. And more than any other, this bill, when it is inevitably litigated and taken to the Supreme Court, could result in the overturn of Roe v. Wade. The bill would ban abortions after the baby’s heartbeat can be detected. At present, a baby’s heartbeat can first be detected at between 18 days and 5 weeks after conception. Since most abortions are done after that point, the bill would effectively ban nearly all abortions in Ohio.

Here’s the ad that Faith2Action has been running in Ohio:

It seems so obvious, once presented, that it makes you wonder why nobody thought of it before. Everyone has a heartbeat; everyone can connect, everyone can relate as a fellow human being when they hear a heartbeat. This is pure genius — and it will ring true. For it is based on a simple physical fact, an objective, measurable criterion — nothing more complicated than a heartbeat! And yet that simple physical phenomenon resonates more deeply than almost anything in human existence: The beating of the human heart has a visceral, elemental, universal affective power.

Only a few short years ago, a baby’s heartbeat could not be detected until 6 weeks. That date has moved up earlier and earlier thanks to advances in technology.

It is similar to the way ultrasound technology has advanced our ability to see the baby in the womb — an ability that has effected some very high-profile conversions to the pro-life cause, including Dr. Bernard Nathanson, at one time the director of the world’s largest abortion facility, and, more recently, Abby Johnson, former director of a Planned Parenthood clinic. Nathanson and Johnson are now highly visible and effective pro-life advocates, whose inside views of the abortion industry give them added credibility with people who are ambivalent on the issue.

Another technology that has made Roe v. Wade more absurd than ever is neonatal care. The Supreme Court in 1973 arbitrarily drew a line at “viability,” ruling that states could impose no restrictions on abortion before “viability,” and some restrictions — at least, theoretically — after that arbitrary point. But the survival rate — and the rate at which babies not only survive but thrive, with no permanent problems — of premature babies has increased dramatically, and moved to earlier and earlier ages.  There may be no greater image of our society’s schizophrenia than that of the many hospitals in which, in one room, a 22-week baby is being brutally killed, while in another room in the same hospital, a 22-week-baby is benefiting from the latest technology to help him or her survive and thrive.

These macabre juxtapositions pointedly show how arbitrary and irrational was the Court’s selection of “viability” as some sort of magical dividing line between person and non-person. The line keeps moving — and it was always subjective in the first place. After all, a 1-year-old toddler cannot survive on its own. A person with advanced Alzheimer’s, multiple sclerosis, Lou Gehrig’s disease or Huntington’s cannot survive on their own. Anyone who’s in the intensive care unit of a hospital — whether for days or for weeks — is not surviving on his or her own. “Viability” as a criterion for deciding who’s human and who’s not was always just plain silly — so silly that it would be laughable if it didn’t have the most deadly serious of consequences: the murder of more than 50 million children in the United States since 1973.

The pro-life movement is a huge, broad, diverse movement, and part of its diversity has been in tactics. There have been those who, with photographs and statistics, have tried to show the magnitude and the horror of child-killing. Others have taken a sunnier, “Life is good” approach, urging us to “celebrate life.” I’ve always thought both approaches, and more, were needed.

In the Ohio “Heartbeat Bill,” we have the perfect confluence of “all of the above.” It is as much an appeal to people’s hearts as it is an irrefutably logical counterblow to a nonsensical court ruling. It brings to the foreground a graphic, physical reality — while making a poignant appeal to the sweetness of natural human affection. It is so plain, so simple, so obvious that it can be understood by any child — and maybe, just maybe, by even some hardened adults.

Cross-posted at West to the West Wing

COMMENTS

  • keepourrepublic

    The vast majority of Americans believe that a woman should have the ability to have an abortion in the case of rape. Under this law, by the time she knows she’s pregnant the choice would be removed from her.

    Also, you have the matter of ectopic pregnancies. These pregnancies occur when the embryo implants in the fallopian tubes or even outside the uterus and fallopian tubes altogether. Depending upon how it implants may determine how far into pregnancy the woman can go. Maybe she can get it past 21 weeks with out endangering her life. Maybe she can’t.

    How do you propose to resolve these issues?

    • Uma Richie

      of weapon with which to confront her attacker. Basically, after the baby is born, DNA samples are taken. The father is positively identified, restrained and his fate left to the woman. I think this is a more compassionate approach than pressuring her to submit to more violence within her own body at the hands of an abortionist.

      I have not been able to find the text of the bill to ascertain how it will maximize efforts in extreme cases to save both lives (or more when there are multiple fetuses with cute little heartbeats).

      I suspect you are playing “What if” games because you disagree with the main purpose of the bill, which is to reduce elective abortions — the 93% of all abortions that performed for selfish rather than life-saving reasons. Please confess if that is the case. I appreciate honest debate.

      • keepourrepublic

        but disagree to the degree this bill would do so.

        Popular opinion has remained basically the same for the past 40 years.

        70+ percent of Americans believe abortion should be legal in the first trimester, 60+ percent believe it should be illegal in the second trimester, and 70+ percent believe it should be illegal in the third trimester.

        If the method restricted abortions to some point within the second trimester it would promote life and dovetail with popular opinion as it has been for 40 years and is likely to be for the next 40 years.

        This bill, however, would be flying against rock solid popular opinion regarding the first trimester and rape. Remember, even among those that consider themselves Pro-Life you have many people willing to make exceptions for rape. Only about 15% of Americans believe there should be no exceptions for rape.

        I do not believe that riding so hard against popular opinion is the best means to promote life.

        • http://westforwestwing2012.com heartlander

          …is that the campaign for it is, in itself, an educational tool that will CHANGE public opinion.

          I mean, did YOU know that a baby’s heartbeat can be detected 18-24 days after conception? I don’t think most people know that!

          And don’t you think that learning that might change some people’s feelings on the subject?

        • jerry39

          Like keeppour here. He/she is not at all phased by the beating heart. He’s not even saying the bill couldnt pass because of public opinion – he’s saying he doesnt want to support the bill becuase he believes it goes against public opinion. But that was his second argument,

          His first argument was rape and eptopic pregnancies. Eptopic pregnancies are a total strawman, and not even considered abortion by pro-lifers. Rape is the great emotional weapon of pro-choicers – abused women need to be able to kill their babies to punish the rapist as the theory goes. Or that they will subdue the pain of trauma by commiting trauma themselves. Its as false of a logic as any of the pro-abortion arguments.

          They want an exception for rape and they want a broad exception for “health of the mother” for any abortion restrictions. The “pubic” keeppour is so worried about has no idea that the abortionists simpy uset the exception to destroy the rule.

          DId you want to have sex?
          Well not really, but…
          Oh, then you were raped. Dont worry its private and you dont have to get anybody in trouble.

          Have you had any morning sickeness?
          Yes
          Well sounds like we need to do this for your health.

          But I digress, as you see rape and eptopic pregnancies weren’t his real reasons, wihich he asserts to be not wanting to go against public opinion, even though the whole purposes of the bill is appeal to public opinion.

          So his real point is that he is trying to find the least offensive way of being pro-abortion and kicking this bill to the curb.

          There are going to be lots of people like this. Both outside and “inside” the pro-life movement. But this diary is 100% correct about this bill and it will change the hearts of plenty of independents and moderate pro-choicers. But it will require work getting the word out and pushing this bill and overcoming the reality that we have reached a point where many consiouses are sufficiently deadened to be OK with snuffing out a beating heart.

          But no matter how they play it, this is the fight they dread, because there are very few places to run and hide to. They have to come out in the open like keeppour just did and basically admit their OK with taking innocent life. No matter how much programming we have been subjected to for the last 40+ years, the abortion industry stil cannot stand in the light on its own to feet and win a fair fight. Your exitemetn about this bill is warranted.

          • keepourrepublic

            jerry39,

            If you define anyone who does not agree with your position 100% as “pro-abortion” then that is your mistake to make.

            You have a good day.

          • jerry39

            I define pro-abortion as being in favor of legalized abortion, Its a pretty simple definition. You are in favor of that until at least some point in the second tri-mester and you oppose legisltion that would prohibit abortion before that point. What am I missing?

            Its also pretty obvious when you lead in with NARAL talking points of rape and eptopic pregnancies, then quickly shift to a general support of abortion based on bogus polling data you say reflects public opinion.

            Sorry, you just cant get much credit for saying you want to reduce abortions, even Barak Obama and Nancy Pelosi say that as they’re cashing their checks from Planned Parenthood.

          • keepourrepublic

            who consider themselves Pro-Life will make allowances for abortion.

            http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm

            http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion2.htm

            There

          • jerry39

            As in your entropic pregnancy. Your not addressing my point which was about YOU being pro–abortion. Your trying to attack my definition as it applies to hypothetical people we weren’t discussing, because I didnt give enough detail. You have not posted honestly yet in this diary. And your polls aren’t the ones you quoted earlier. I didn’t see any trimester polls.

            If someone is for abortions in case of life of the mother, I’m with them on that. Basically thats only the entopic pregnancies we already discussed, but it skews your polls down on the absolute issue.

            If someone is only for exceptions in rape/incest/and life of the mother, I know they are a little misguided on the rape issue, but I am not going to say they are pro-abortion. I bet dollars to donuts 1/2 of those would change their mind if they thought it through. Now were right around 50 % in recent polling. Heres a 2010 gallup showing over 70% say legal in only certain circumstances.

            http://www.gallup.com/poll/1576/abortion.aspx

            Are there some of those who self identify as pro-life that I would not let get away with it? Yes, like you for instance supporting abortion on demand to some point in the second trimester. But 70% of he people in those polls dont think that, so your not guilty by association theory is bogus.

            But I don’t care if I end up calling 90% of the people who think they are pro-life pro-abortion, if thats reality.

            Do you recognize your whole mindset on this issue is about diversion tactics? Do you realize the whole point of the heartbeat bill is to work around the abortion lobby’s diversion tactics?

            That if you take that pro-life majority and even a chunk of the self identified pro-choicers and ask them if they are OK with abortion on demand when the baby has a heartbeat, the numbers are going to be in our favor?

            If you dont see that at all, then I offer that you might be a tad brainwashed on this issue. If you do see it, then you simply cant justify your comments any other way except as intentional pro-abortion rhetoric, because you dont want this bill to see the light of day.

          • keepourrepublic

            I don’t think this bill is going to be the end result of the abortion debate. I think it goes farther then what the limits public opinion will bear.

            While I would like to see abortions not occur after the first trimester I believe it is important the the grounds that abortion be restricted be acceptable to the majority. The grounds used to justify the restriction we may not land right at the dividing line between the first and second trimesters.

            If the majority does not agree with the grounds that abortion is restricted then the new rule will be viewed as lacking legitimacy, much like Roe vs Wade is viewed as lacking legitimacy. Whatever solution we achieve that maximizes life needs to be seen by the majority of people as legitimate so that the solution stands.

            I have been honest and cordial in this thread. I have provided sources when asked and have found various points upon which we agree even though you through we disagreed upon them. If you want to believe that I have been dishonest then I can’t very well convince you otherwise. It should be noted that such an accusation is not likely to grant your arguments any more persuasive then had they lacked such accusations. Indeed it should be supposed to have the opposite effect.

            That’s okay. I forgive you.

          • keepourrepublic

            Apparently there’s a hot key I’m unaware of to post a reply. And I hit it before I was done. Ignore the title of the previous post as it does not relate to what had been typed thus far.

            Cheers.

          • Uma Richie

            Since you do, may I please direct your attention to Zogby 2004:

            Zogby International April 15-17, 2004 N=1,209 +/- 2.8%

            Abortion should not be permitted after the fetal heartbeat has begun (strongly/somewhat agree, strongly/somewhat disagree)

            Agree 61% Disagree 34%

            http://www.zogby.com/Soundbites/readclips.cfm?ID=8087
            http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1132392/posts

            Please don’t move the goalposts of the debate in light of this new information. It is one of my pet peeves.

          • keepourrepublic

            What is the point of implementing a policy by hook or by crook that will be rejected by a significant slice of the electorate? Isn’t that what happened with Roe v. Wade? If it’s bad for the goose then it’s bad for the gander.

            I would like to see an abortion policy that 70+% of Americans could agree upon in large part. Looking at a lot of the numbers there is a consensus on a bunch of individual aspects on abortion, but no immediate way to tie them all together into a coherent policy demonstrated by a consistent morality. I don’t see the point of seeking a solution that would leaves our country again divided roughly 50/50 on either side of the issue because the argument will not have been won, just like it wasn’t won by the other side with Roe v. Wade.

          • Locked and Loaded

            How could the pro-aborts win any more than the nearly unfettered access to abortion at any stage of pregnancy (perhaps beyond) that they now enjoy?

          • keepourrepublic

            If a sizable amount of the population didn’t have problem with the current abortion then they would have won. As it is there is a a Pro-Life movement working to reverse their efforts. They have the field, but the game is not over. The game won’t be over until the vast majority agree upon policy. It’s not enough to just get 50%+1 on this issue.

          • http://westforwestwing2012.com heartlander

            …and I don’t think our Founding Fathers envisioned being governed by them!

            Here’s how all that works; Various commercial media pound people day and day out with biased “news” designed to make them all think a certain way. Then those commercial media (or the advocacy groups for whom they serve as a mouthpiece) commission “opinion polls” to measure how well their propaganda has worked. Then the media report the results.

            Do you see how what a joke this is?

            Furthermore, the media (ABC, CNN, USA Today, whatever) design the wording of the opinion poll’s questions so as to achieve maximum positive results for whatever angle they’ve been pushing.

            Then, on top of everything else, they can control the poll “results” by weighting the sampling in particular ways. Surely you’ve heard of how political opinion polls are forever overweighting the Democrats in their population sampling. It’s just a big game.

            It’s all so silly. And the idea of governing a country this way is just plain obscene, IMO. Talk about banal!

            So with respect to the topic at hand:

            1. I don’t trust the accuracy of ANY of those numbers that have been reported by anyone in this entire thread. It’s not that I don’t trust you, my fellow commenters, it’s that I don’t trust the data. Garbage in, garbage out.

            2. A dedicated public-education effort by our side could change the real numbers more quickly than you think.

            3. One of the purposes of the Heartbeat Bill is precisely to educate the public. The proponents are hopeful about the bill’s passage, because they are putting a lot of effort into educating people, and I suspect they are finding that it works. At the very least they’re willing to give it a good hard try. Which is better than sitting around waiting for the drive-by media to ever cover the facts objectively.

          • congressworksforus

            “Eptopic pregnancies are a total strawman, and not even considered abortion by pro-lifers. ”

            OK… but when the law outlaws an abortion if a heartbeat is detectable, then the court enforces the law, not what pro-life or pro-abortion people consider to be abortion.

            This is the problem with this topic. If you create exceptions, you have lawyers driving a truck through them; if you remove all the exceptions, SCOTUS nixes the bill…

          • jerry39

            these pregnancies are not an issue. But the people putting this together also have enough experience to know you cant just have a blanket “health of the mother” excption that PP will drive the truck through. Thats my belief anyway, if actual issues like this arent dealt with you will see it when the bill gets debated.

        • Uma Richie

          I don’t accept your assumptions about public opinion.

          I think you are a hypocrite for saying that public opinion is important, that 60% of the public believes in outlawing 2nd trimester abortions, and that you think the correct path would be to outlaw abortions “at some point in the second trimester.” Clearly, you are no better than those you criticize. You have your own criteria on where, when and how the government should grant power for one group of people to murder another group. You want your criteria to be the law of the land.

          And your obstinacy in using women who have been raped to give you cover makes me sick. It seems as though you are rooting for more rapes, especially ones that result in pregnancy, to help keep abortion legal.

        • lineholder
          • keepourrepublic

            http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm

            http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion2.htm

            There’s various polls that list Always Legal – Usually Legal – Usually Illegal – Always Illegal. Always Illegal scores anywhere between 10% and 20%, but is usually around 15% with that phrasing. “Always Illegal” option can score as low as 5% and as high as 25% with other phrasing.

            I was thinking of the result for 25% believe it should always be illegal to infer the 70+% within the first trimester.

            Assuming the nation is split 50/50 on the issue then at best only 50% of those who consider themselves Pro-Life would ban abortion entirely. If we go with the average of 15% then according to jerry39 70% of those who identify as Pro-Life and 85% of all Americans are “pro-abortion”.

            With regards to the trimesters Gallup has asked in 1996, 2000, & 2003:

            Thinking more generally, do you think abortion should generally be legal or generally illegal during each of the following stages of pregnancy. How about…[RANDOM ORDER]?

            These are the 2003 results and they are mirrored in the other samples:

            Believe should be Legal
            1st trimester 66%
            2nd trimester 25%
            3rd trimester 10%

            Believe should be Illegal
            1st trimester 29%
            2nd trimester 68%
            3rd trimester 84%

            There’s a lot of interesting data in there. How the questions are asked and what options are provided can cause a variance of 10% or so on one particular aspect.

          • lineholder

            I can use them for something that I’m working on. Any thing more recent than this? My impression,and this is just an opinion, is that the trends are shifting a bit and these values might not be as strong in favor of abortion as they were in 2003.

            Right to Life issues have become more predominant in the eyes of the general public recently, on both ends of the life spectrum. And there are also other issues that have raised public awareness, such as the Gosnell case in PA.

            But I do appreciate what you have provided. Thanks.

          • rightwingmom52
          • jerry39

            Out there where the questions try to get narrow in and get past the question bias. I found a composite list of these the other day, but don’t have the time to look right now. Everything shows trending our way and majorities or near majs. for most restrictions.

          • keepourrepublic

            lineholder,

            I’m glad the stats will be of help to you.

          • rightwingmom52

            http://www.gallup.com/poll/118399/more-americans-pro-life-than-pro-choice-first-time.aspx

            and more in 2010 here

            http://www.gallup.com/poll/128036/new-normal-abortion-americans-pro-life.aspx

            If you’re going to use Gallup, at least pull the latest data.

          • lineholder

            BTW, did you see the 2010 chart on pro-life views versus age? For 2010, the 18-24 age group jump towards pro-life was HUGE!!!

          • http://westforwestwing2012.com heartlander

            The median age of those marchers gets younger and younger every year.

          • jerry39

            Peacefully marching and seeking freedom from death for those they will never know. Odd that Obama wasn’t all over the place congratulating these young people for the strength of their convictions. Not his kind of young people I guess.

          • rightwingmom52
          • jerry39

            68 – 75% dont think it should be legal in the second trimester. Yet you wanted to prohibit at some point after the second trimester began? So your opposed to 75% of the public, even after all this reliance on polls for your morality?

            You also have to remember that these polls dont juxtapose exceptions with trimesters. It could be that 50% of the first trimester people have only rape and life of the mother in mind? We just dont know from these polls.

          • keepourrepublic

            The majority do not believe abortion should be legal in the 2nd trimester. You are also correct that I referred to restricting abortions at “some point within the second trimester.”

            I suspect that within the second trimester we may find that the public has different levels of opinion for the first 4 weeks, second 4 weeks, and third 4 weeks of the 2nd trimester. I suspect that were it polled that we would find that a divided 2nd trimester may yield similar results to the three trimesters – a greater amount being in favor in the first 4 weeks, and a greater amount being opposed for the second and third 4 weeks.

            The softer numbers against abortion in the 2nd trimester as opposed to the 3rd would indicate to me that a precise consensus is unknown. Further polling would be helpful in this matter.

          • runner12

            to determine what you belive or rather what you would support based on polling data. If you are pro-life, that is if you believe that abortion is murder, then you logically have to oppose abortion in all circumstances. Otherwise, then you are saying that you believe that murder is okay given the right circumstances. This is an inconsistent belief pattern.

            I guess it all determines how you quantify the term pro-life.

          • keepourrepublic

            You got it in one.

            I believe in an abortion policy that promotes life by making incentives be to Choose Life. I am with the 70+% that believe there should be greater restrictions on abortion.

            That said I do not yet know where to draw the line. What I am looking for is a comprehensive abortion policy would be that would maintain a consistent morality throughout.

            If the policy has exceptions to it’s morality then it fails. So I’m still looking.

          • jerry39

            He is a commited abortionist and one of the people who’s minds cannot be changed easily. It also doesnt affect the power of this Bill.

            I was about to try a softer approach to you above Keep, because you have been very cordial, and at times It almost seems like you are reaching out for someone to help you discover the moraility that is in you, but that has been beaten down by whatever influence.

            But then I get to this post and youve circled back yet again to morality and arguing that this bill doesnt have a consistent morality based on zilch?

            - your morality is allegedly based on polls
            - you have misquoted your own polls
            - when it is pointed out that you that a majority would support this bill – you move the bar to wanting 70% approval
            - you refuse to addres the hard questions, but divert

            Example tough question: If slavery was legal, would your suggestion be to wait until 70% approved freedom for the slaves before thinking

          • jerry39

            So the examle was do you keep slavery going until 70% agree.

            And the logic is so twisted. Your point is that if 60% agreed with this bill we should go against that unitl we can to 70%. Its like minority rule, and for some reason we need a super-majority to stop killing babies? How sick is that.

            Then you just toss in “consistent morality.” Is it moral to kill an innocent baby? How is killing less innocent babies an inconsistent morality?

            Are you back to eptopic pregnancies? Look this bill is not going to force mothers with eptopic pregnancices to die – I guarantee it. If you research the bill and find I am wrong, then come back and argue it. But until then, it is a total red herring.

            Bottom line is, if you are a conservative – you need to have at least some sense of morality. A Republic like ours simply cannot endure without a sense of respect for the rights of the individual.

            Look at the Lara Logan rape/assault by 200 men in public in Egytpt. If a majority of Egyptians vote that she deserved it – does that make it right? You just dont realize what this country will descend into if everydody were to think like you.

            Dont give me any more stats. Tell me why its OK to kill innocent babies. Make yourself deal with that question.

          • keepourrepublic

            and have stated that I’m still grappling with the issue.

            I see you want to rail against a pro-abortionist. I hope one steps forward so you can have the conversation you want.

            You have a good day.

          • jerry39

            Sorry, like I said i posted prematurely on that one. I did not mean “abortionist” I meant that you were pro-abortion as in you support a pretty unrestricted right to abortion. That was my mistake.

            I also didnt catch the post where you said you were stil struggling w/the issue, but that is a keyt purpose of the bill being discussed on this diary – to make people think about the issue armed with just a little more truth.

            And I do think that having that discussion is perfectly appropriate to the diary, and I am happy to have that discussion without railing against you.

            It’s just that the discussion has to be first about right and wrong, about morality, about the promises and principles of America vis-a-vie this issue. Not about polls.

            This type of discussion should never be about polls, but it is doubly true with abortion when you realize that the entire strategy of the pro-abortion movement from day 1, over 40 years ago has been to distort the truth, alinsky rules, and an ongoing abortion marketing campaign – designed not to allow people to think about the truth of abortion.

            The link below is one of Bernard Nathanson’s statements. He is the now pro-life co-founder of NARAL and abortionist. And by that I mean he actually aborted over 75000 babies, one of them his own child, before his conversion. He talks about what they did to sway opinion back in the 60′s. Its a very quick read. You will also note why I am particularly hostile to someone coming on here misquoting polls to oppose a pro-life piece of legislation.

            http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/abortion/ab0005.html

            This is an article about his conversion to being pro-life and it has the 1984 video he made of an ultrasound abortion, “The Silent Scream.”

            http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/abortion/ab0005.html

            There’s another out there where he talks about how they hired public relations firms to come up with the “pro-choice” theme and other themes. You get my point.

          • Uma Richie

            I’m going to bite one more time. I don’t think that you are ready to accept that life begins at conception, but I do believe that you can support the Heartbeat Bill. I am going to try to speak to you in your own language and based on your own criteria. I don’t agree with your decision making process, and I believe that life needs to be protected from conception.

            -First, this bill is not a “hook or crook” tactic. It is being considered at the state level for a single state by a popularly elected lawmaking body.
            -Second, as I pointed out above, there is popular support for outlawing abortion after the start of the fetal hearbeat.
            -Third, a heartbeat law would not put an unreasonable burden on anyone. A case of 24 pee-on-a-stick home pregnancy tests costs $25. Women have been reminded to do monthly breast self-exams for years. POAS is easier than that. A woman who believes she has the right to sex without consequences can exist in a Heartbeat Law world by keeping a stash of home pregnancy tests under her sink and using them regularly.
            -Fourth, in a country where chemical abortion exists, it should give you pause that bimonthly home pregnancy tests are not recommended for sexually active women who would wish to abort if they conceived a child. Surgery, anesthesia, forced dilation, sharp objects in the uterus all present increased risks to a woman’s health. Pro-abortionists compare beautiful fetuses thriving in their’s mothers’ wombs to cancer. If there were a cheap, noninvasive test that could detect cancer two weeks after the first cancer cell appeared, wouldn’t all people at risk for that cancer be advised to take it regularly?
            -Fifth, you are looking for some kind of morality, but the American ideal of recognizing the right to life does not appeal to you. How about the morality of minimized cruelty. If it were legal to kill drug addicts after three strikes at rehab, I would be aghast if you favored dismembering them alive. Applied to babies before they are born, I am aghast that you support tearing them limb from limb and sucking them into a machine when generalized organ failure is available. (I hate this paragraph. It sickens me to type it.)
            -Sixth (and this is beyond the scope of the Heartbeat Bill), if in your quest to search for a “consistent morality” you wonder about the fate of women who fail to abort their children in the timeframe allowed by law, I suggest the following: Allow for induction of labor for a live birth any time after 28 weeks. Your average teenager can still hide a pregnancy to this point, the complications of late pregnancy are avoided, and 1950s technology (as opposed to the latest and greatest neonatal intensive care) should be able to substitute for the womb.

          • runner12

            having trouble seeing where the consistency in your beliefs lies. Do you believe abortion is murder? If not, then why do you oppose greater restrictions?

            I

          • runner12

            believe abortion is murder, then why are you pushing for greater restrictions? In other words, what is you moral opposition to abortion?

          • keepourrepublic

            The abortion policy we currently have is sick and twisted.

            However, if I accept the premise that abortion is murder then abortion should not be allowed under any circumstances. To be logically consistent, abortion should then not be allowed for rape or incest. If an ectopic pregnancy were to occur then the mother would have to roll the dice and hope she is able to make it to the 25th week so the child has a 50% chance of survival. If she dies then oh well. Further, embryos that are created via IVF would need to be implanted regardless of the wishes of the parents. If they do not wish to use the embryos themselves then the state could then forcibly remove the embryos from the parents possession so that they may be used by another couple.

            If I accept the premise that abortion is murder then that is the position that would be logically consistent, but not morally consistent. It would necessarily condemn women to die needlessly and grant the state the power to force people to reproduce.

            Mandating those things is as sick and as twisted as the policy we have now.

            Neither can I accept “abortion is murder, except for when it isn’t” because that is as an arbitrary measure lacking any kind of moral consistency or internal logic.

            If you can propose an abortion policy that would be both logically and morally consistent then I am all ears.

            Until I find such a policy to advocate for I will be cautious in pushing too far.

            I hope that sufficiently clarifies my hesitation on the matter.

          • Menlo

            Besides killing in self-defense, medical emergencies sometimes present the need for triage. I suppose neither of those is “logically and morally consistent” enough?

          • jerry39

            The issue for this bill is saving lives, not defining murder. I think the bill prohits killing, but doesn’t define abortion as murder. The relevant question is whether u think there is life when there is a beating heart?

            If we knew everyone that swam in a particular polluted lake would die from it, we would ban swimming in the lake to save lives, and is there any question that would be a morally and logically consistent law?

            But it doesn’t matter how many times u move the ball, there is no rational way to dispute this, except to say that u are ok with killing innocents for convenience.

            Murder is the intentional killing of another with malice aforethough. That is what happens in an abortion, but it is not as simple as that either. Murder has absolute defenses, such as self-defense. So the killing of a child to save the mothers life is not murder. Allowing that exception is no more inconsistent than a woman shooting her attacker in a dark alley. Likewise the defense carries over to threats of extreme physical harm as well, so even if a serious harm would be caused by pregnancy, abortion would be acceptable.

            As to rape and incest, those are not rational justifications, because you can’t punish an innocent 3rd party for the crime of another. rape and incest are terrible traumas on the person, and the impact will like never subside. But it is not correct to assume that the trauma of a rape is somehow lessened by the killing of your own child. That is simply another. trauma to the person that will last a lifetime. Consider many children are abused and grow up to be abusers. We sympathize with the trauma they experienced, but we cannot condone their harming others simply because it was done to them.

            Also, even though abortion is murder, most of the people who have abortions are more victims than they are murderers because it has been legal and promoted for over 40 years. It is stupid to condemn Thomas Jefferson for being a save owner under todays laws, because it had mass acceptance at the time, but that also meant mean we should have allowed slavery to continue.

            Fiannly, if u choose not to decide, u still have made a choice.3000000 babies are aborted every year invite US. Your coming out opposed to this legislation because u don’t have moral clarity is the same as being abortion.

            The other issue is that even though abortion is murder, we cannot ignore the reality that it has been legal for 40 + years.

          • runner12

            emergency and not a viable pregnancy. It is an abnormal physiological phenomenon, so comparing it to abortion is not acurate. Secondly, sometimes you must triage a medical emergency, that means that negative consequences may indeed occur. It is a risk that must be taken.

            Secondly, with regards to invitro fertilization it is a process in which to create life, NOT destroy it. Not to say there are not medical ethics that must be discussed and certain lines must be drawn, but that is a separate debate.

            Here is a suggestion. How about restricting those forms of abortion that willfully and intentionally seek to destroy a viable, growing baby? That is clear and concise and morally and legally consistent.

        • Menlo

          Most people were against “equal protection” when the fourteenth amendment passed. Popular opinion should be irrelevant where equal protection and genuine civil rights are concerned. Then again, I think judicial opinion should be irrelevant too in this case. It’s horrifying that the court was taken seriously by law enforcement in all fifty states in 1973 and has been since. Unless Ohio’s executive branch is willing to defy the judiciary, this bill is just for show.

          • http://westforwestwing2012.com heartlander

            I know I hadn’t until recently, and I’ve been in the pro-life movement for 38 years!!

            As we see so clearly with the immigration issue, any law (or court ruling) is only as good as its enforcement. Example: Here in Kansas, George Tiller broke the law for years, but because he had friends in high places (such as Kathleen Sebelius), he just kept getting away with it.

            Phill Kline, the former Kansas Attorney General who brought charges against Tiller, has started a project he calls the Amistad Journey,
            http://standwithtruth.com/?page_id=303
            whose purpose is to inspire District Attorneys to make sure the laws in their jurisdictions are actually enforced (What a radical concept!).

            From the website:

            Did you know: a single Congressman is one of 435 persons who cannot directly engage in enforcing our laws while the average District Attorney is the only decision maker and has, in most instances, sole authority to enforce our laws designed to protect women and children and restrict abortion?

            Did you know: that pro-lifers will contribute millions of tax deductible monies to organizations to track congressional action, however, the prolife community has not engaged in ensuring the enforcement of state and federal laws restricting abortion?

            Did you know: that despite the passage of all of the prolife legislation through the years the only single enforcement effort ever against Planned Parenthood was the one I initiated?

            All of the prolife efforts to persuade and direct Congress must continue but we must now finally and firmly engage in the effort to ensure our laws are enforced!

          • jerry39

            See my comment down the line to timelyrenewed. I dont disagree that a strong State could and should refuse to enforce Roe, but that should be the last resort.

          • Menlo

            As per your thinking, one who thoroughly read the history of judicial opinions would see that the obiter dicta from Roe has been too often confused with its rationes decidendi and that of subsequent rulings. One must read the whole thing in context to see that nothing in the actual ruling is based on a lack of scientific evidence.

            No one on the judiciary believes there is some question of “when life begins” that would change the outcome. That holds for almost everyone who favors abortion.

            Judicial defiance and not taking them seriously actually should have been an immediate response of first resort in 1973, but it’s obviously far too late for that.

          • jerry39

            The Court spends a great deal of time determinig at what point the State’s interest becomes sufficiently compelling. They punt on the question of when life begins –

            “We need not resolve the difficult question of when life begins. When those trained in the respective disciplines of medicine, philosophy, and theology are unable to arrive at any consensus, the judiciary, at this point in the development of man’s knowledge, is not in a position to speculate as to the answer.”

            So much so in fact, that the State’s interest they settle on is its interest in protecting “potential life” and it is deemed sufficently strong to prohibit most abortions at the point of “viability.”

            So development of the fetus, whether in terms of a consensus on life begining or the lesser interest of potential life is the determining factor, and is not dicta, in the sense of ability to impact the decision.

            Its also not the case that the knowlede of when life begins wil automatically change the outcome – but if a state carefully defines their compelling interest, not only as when life begins, but when there is proof of a beating heart – it becomes impossible for the judges to counter this with Ancient concepts of date of quickening, etc. What more axiomatic definition of life can there be than the beating heart? It is the visual and mental picture to the 3 week old baby that partial birth abortion was to the 3rd trimester baby.

            I would agree that some of Roe’ progeny are more restrictive and I have not gone through and re-read those, but I think this concept has a real shot.

            I also agree with you that States should have taken a stand in 1973, but at this point a new stimulus is needed to justify a Constitutional crisis and I believe this law could be it. In other words, nullification should be the back up plan if the gets overturned.

          • http://westforwestwing2012.com heartlander

            I am not a lawyer and must confess ignorance as to obiter dicta and rationes decidendi….
            but Jerry has a good point about the court punting as to when life begins. Many legal scholars have pointed out that one of the weaknesses in Roe is that “viability” was a completely arbitrary dividing line that could be torn down in the future.

            Basically, Roe has stood because too many people have WANTED it to stand. I don’t normally quote leftists, but Molly Ivins once said that people who have a PERSONAL STAKE in not being persuaded of something, simply will not be persuaded, no matter how much logic, reason, factual evidence and rhetorical eloquence you bring to bear on the issue.

            I’ve told the story before of how, at a women’s conference I attended about 20 years ago, an argument about abortion was quickly brought to a halt when a young woman stood up and said, “Look, people, we all know that abortion kills a baby. But that’s not the issue.”

            So, believe me, I know how hard-hearted and closed-minded people can be on this issue. BUT, just as ultrasounds have been PROVEN to persuade most abortion-minded women to change their minds and carry their babies to term, I think the simple sound of a heartbeat may very well change people’s hearts.

          • Menlo

            There has been no question of when human life begins since the 1800s. Any educated person who claims or claimed otherwise is lying, as the judges in that case did. There is no question, debate, or matter of opinion. It is biological definition, and no rational and educated person could even accept that another rational and educated person might question it. This is one reason the court should have been defied, discredited, and disrespected. Of course I’d have no problem abolishing it completely.

            Regardless, the portion you cite actually was not relevant and was indeed obiter dicta. Why they bothered to lie for it is beyond me, but it even says they “need not resolve” it. I suspect these are the ramblings of the clerks who authored the opinion. The issue of “viability” too is irrelevant as it was written to be solely to the abortionist to determine together with a “health” exception that negates any possible restriction.

            I would also point out that most of the rationale (including the issue of a state’s “interests”) was overridden by the 1992 Casey case. A thorough reading of Casey (including a “between the lines” reading) will show why any hope for a meaningful change from the judiciary is completely unrealistic and why the judicial system as it stands now deserves the utmost disrespect.

          • jerry39

            But I am, and u overstate both the meaning of dicta in general and as applied to the particular quotes discussed.

            As to the health excepton, the court did not intend an illusory right of the state to restrict abortion. The health language as applied has been almost a blanket exception, but states can tighten that up without running afoul of roe.

            I agree in general that the court must want to overturn, but this law not only gives them a way around roe, it could drive the public support necessary to motivate them to want to overturn.

          • Menlo

            The quoted text is irrelevant, both because it says so itself and because it is and always was an obvious lie. A lie is a lie; it is not some unproven hypothesis that may become more true or false over time.

            Even that does not matter though. Nothing is going to significantly change with regard to the status quo on abortion as long as the nation stands. It’s not going to change in the judiciary, in so-called “law” school, in law enforcement, in practice, or in public opinion. Media spin pointing to the contrary is just that.

            I can say that whatever the court intended, I assume nothing but ill motives on their part (and perhaps more accurately the clerks who write all the opinions).

          • http://westforwestwing2012.com heartlander

            Good Lord, I sure hope you’re wrong — or we are doomed!

            A nation that kills its own children will not stand. That’s just the way the world works. Things have logical, natural consequences.

            Someone once asked Fr. Frank Pavone, founder of Priests for Life, if he thought abortion would still be legal in the United States 50 years from now. Pavone replied, “Either there will not be legal abortion 50 years from now, or there will not be a United States 50 years from now.”

          • Menlo

            I don’t quite see how that follows. It’s been going on nearly 40, and the birth rate is much higher than the abortion rate and well above replacement levels. I suppose Fr. Frank Pavone expects God to send a big bolt of lightning to wipe out the nation as punishment?

            A more likely (yet still unlikely) downfall of the US would be continued free trade with China.

          • http://westforwestwing2012.com heartlander

            But a people who can convince themselves of something as absurd as the idea that a baby is not really a baby can convince themselves of ANYTHING. For example, “a baby is not really a baby” is no less absurd than “terrorists are not really terrorists — therefore we’re not really at war” or “the way to get out of debt is to spend more money.” Any of that sound familiar? What I am saying is that everything is connected. A society can’t be insane in one area while somehow magically maintaining sanity in all other areas. When society cracks up, it cracks up in many ways. Hence, our present situation — which, if not repaired, really will end America as we have known it.

            The level of psychic numbing and cognitive dissonance that has to be sustained to make one’s peace with a massive scale of child-killing going on all around you makes a society dysfunctional. A society that is willing to condone the murder of its own children will quickly lose even the will to defend itself against its enemies. As we see.

            What Fr. Pavone was alluding to was the way human nature and society and politics WORK. Like the laws of physics, you can try to get around the basic laws of human nature — but your efforts will be doomed.

          • Menlo

            I suspect the majority of women seeking abortions (and those performing them) realize they are killing a baby. Several abortionists themselves publicly acknowledge it. Others may try to hide it in euphemisms, but they know. With few exceptions, that realization doesn’t change things, and it’s not going to.

            Otherwise, the prevalence and acceptance of one evil doesn’t imply the prevalence or acceptance of another, certainly not in a country as large, diverse, and inconsistent as ours.

            To the extent any such thinking extends to other areas of life, it is not anywhere nearly enough to create any sort of instability that would even remotely threaten the existence of the US in any of our lifetimes. It’s more likely the nation would be hit by some object from outer space. Granted with Roe’s basis in emanations, penumbras, and “shadowy edges” and Casey’s basis in “mysteries of the universe,” that may not be far off.

          • jerry39

            “Otherwise, the prevalence and acceptance of one evil doesn

          • Menlo

            I won’t deny for one second that it’s an evil world and the United States is no exception. I also won’t deny that it’s not going to get any better. However, the only evil I can see possibly threatening the continued existence of this nation is free trade with China.

    • http://westforwestwing2012.com heartlander

      From a moral standpoint, what you are doing is getting rid of the threat to the woman’s life — with the unfortunate indirect consequence being the death of the baby.

      This is a very different scenario than that of most elective abortions, where the primary, purposeful intent is to directly kill the baby.

      My understanding is that an ectopic pregnancy, if left untreated, would kill BOTH mother and baby.

      • keepourrepublic

        if left untreated, ectopic pregnancies will kill both mother and baby.

        I bring ectopic pregnancies up to be thorough. Such pregnancies, while rare, need to be accounted for in any abortion policy. Failing to do so creates the a surety that we will have an inconsistent morality to our abortion policy.

        • http://westforwestwing2012.com heartlander
        • jerry39

          You didnt bring up eptopic pregnancies to ensure a “consistent morality to abortion policy,” you oppose the law either way. You brought it up as a sideshow and moved on to your other bogus reason for supporting abortion on demand, public opinon. So do you want a consistently moral abortion policy or one based on public opinion? My guess is neither, and if I show you the polls that a majority oppose all abortions except in cases where mother’s life is threatened (eptopic), you’d move on to your next justification.

    • runner12

      I believe these are defined as more of an emergency medical situation rather than a pregnancy. Differing symptoms occur that signal that it is not a normal pregnancy. Also, very rarely is a fetus viable with an ectopic pregnancy. Usually what happens is that in an attempt to save the mother’s life, the baby dies. This is quite different than using instruments and machines to forcibly remove a baby.

      As to rape, that is a difficult situation. But I think that it makes it worse by aborting the baby. After all, two wrongs don’t make a right. What I would like to see is tougher laws on those who committ rape. Our rape laws are a joke, in my opinion. People who committ rape should be elegible for life in prison.

      • runner12

        good old Webster’s. The correct spelling would be “commit.”

    • Joliphant

      That our society is willing to compound a heinous crime with an even greater crime.

      What you are describing though isn’t a conflict within a moral system, its the clash of two differing moral systems. One believes that life is sacred, the other is willing to turn a blind eye to the killing of a child.

    • GregInFla

      A baby is a baby. Sorry, the wrong party is the rapist, not the baby.

  • rightwingmom52
  • Scope

    I would also like for a minute too talk about those that dedicate their lives to saving babies and their moms. I have been reeling and teary eyed at the death of a Doctor, here in my Charlottesville area, that specialized in high risk pregnancies, and pregnancies of addicted women. He donated time at the Pregnancy Center in Charlottesville. I know Dr. Gary Helmbrecht from hearing him on the radio frequently, hearing him speak at Tea Party gatherings, and exchanged some comments with him on a local blogpost. He was fiercely against Ocare, and was very vocal against it here in the area. His death is a major loss to the entire community. His brilliance, accomplishments and activism is listed in his obit.

    http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/dailyprogress/obituary.aspx?n=gary-helmbrecht&pid=148620872

    He was only 53 years old, and I had not heard anything about any prior illness.

    • http://westforwestwing2012.com heartlander

      Thank you so much for sharing about this wonderful man!

  • http://www.timelyrenewed.com timelyrenewed

    This is a wonderful idea. However, until the Supreme Court’s usurpation of the right of the states to regulate abortion is addressed, these and other state laws are fighting an uphill battle against the doctrine of judicial precedent. There is another possible solution. This is to correct the underlying distortion of the Constitution which has allowed the Supreme Court to use the hopelessly vague language of section 1 of the 14th amendment to read whatever social policy it wants into the Constitution. The solution to this is a constitutional amendment, not to ban abortion, but rather to return section 1 to its original purpose of banning governmental race discrimination. This will zero out all of the Supreme Court’s unrelated judicial lawmaking under that section of the Constitution. See http://www.timelyrenewed.com

    • jerry39

      The bill is premised on the weakness of Roe which was its refusal to deal with the when life begins issue becaue we were dealing with 1960′s technology.

      The decision itself points out that the States interest in protecting the fetus could be greater if it could prove the point of when life begins. Thats the target of this bill. Its not just another resctrictive abortion law destined to be ruled unconstitutional. It has a real shot at getting around Roe v. Wade.

  • penguin2

    There may be no greater image of our society

  • JadedByPolitics

    I am pro-life all 9m months but my 25 yr old fancies himself a little more Libertarian then Conservative and we had a discussion about life and we finally got to the 5 wk point where his friends seem to think that those “cells” haven’t become a human being (never answering the question how they all got beyond that 5 wk timeframe) but when I said to him they can prove a heartbeat (which is indeed LIFE) at 18 days he waivered and said that it is life and he gets where it is then impossible to kill that life. I have been saying it for so long I get tired of hearing myself but these sonograms, these new technologies are the way forward to saving these babies. I believe Americans as a majority when given the facts (they have been lied to for decades) will reject MURDER of their future fellow American citizens!

  • http://teapartisan.wordpress.com Socrates

    that people who will readily accept laws against 18-20 year-olds drinking because they might have too much and might drive and then might harm someone will also readily accept laws for killing children who would otherwise almost certainly be born.

  • Common_Cents

    We do that for taking a life in capital punishment with appeals etc…but no appeals for the unborn.

    Shouldn’t the burden of proof be on the abortionists to prove that a fetus isn’t life?

  • congressworksforus

    The same people demanding a women’s right to choose, deny that same women the right to choose not to join a union…

  • GregInFla