I have a very wicked habit – I gawk. I am a visual person who takes in every detail. I can describe anything down to the minutest element. I stare at people. I scrutinize lines on faces and if someone is interesting or unusual looking I drink in the facets of what I’m seeing even more. My bad habit has become a tool in writing, which provides a paint box full texture and interest to what I’m attempting to convey.
When I was a little girl my Dad told me, “Stop staring!” He said it was impolite and made people feel uncomfortable. If I saw a handicapped person with a deformity, I brought staring to a whole new level. If I happened upon a person who was mentally challenged, my father would have to literally drag me away because my reaction was as if I encountered an otherworldly phenomenon– eyes wide, mouth agape frozen and fixated.
Now, as a Grandma, I have learned to curtail my habit and feed off the treasure trove of past staring information that I stored away. However, the practice of staring has given me insight as to why the situation we find ourselves in as a nation irritates me the way it does. I realize that there are people who beg us to look at them and then censure us for doing what they dared us to do–like people with full body tattoos or ten penny nails through their pierced eyebrows.
After many years of contemplating my annoyance and impatience with a certain people group that doesn’t like being stared at, I finally figured out what bothers me about Muslim women outfitted in hijāb.
I want to clarify, although I realize that the burqua marginalizes women and is a symbol of the inequality between males and females in the Muslim culture that isn’t what irks the living daylights out of me. Freedom of religion aside –I know myself enough to know that I’d be unable to control my reaction if confronted on the street by Casper the Friendly Ghost. Trust me, I would stare.
The crux of the matter is that the Muslim culture has invaded our nation and their repressive, 5,000-year-old outerwear is being inflicted on us in our day-to-day life. Muslims make some sort of costume statement and we’re being told to dare not ogle? If we do, because we can’t believe our eyes–it’s interpreted as religious discrimination against Islam. You know what I say, “Tough! If you don’t like it, woman-up and take off that ridiculous outfit.”
Question? If you saw two people walking around in the grocery store in Renaissance attire acting like it was the most normal thing in the world, would you keep thumbing through the National Enquirer, or look?
For example on a recent foray into Walmart, the people’s market, I was subjected to quite an eye-opener. Perusing the laundry detergent aisle and innocently comparing the prices between Tide and Purex, I prefer Tide, whiter whites and all, out of the corner of my finely tuned eyes appeared a Muslim man outfitted in a floor length, galabiyya. On his poorly coifed head, a wrinkled kufi. He had sandals on his, hygienically challenged bare feet and sported a full length, never been groomed, overgrown, Prophet Muhammad beard. Trailing right behind him, at a comfortably respectful, but no less repressive-submissive pace, was a woman dressed in full burqua, with niqab – and sunglasses no less. And I’m not supposed to look? I was gripped with horror like the first time I saw the Invisible Man – no skin, a mummy in Ray Ban’s. I thought, “Is there someone in there?”
I couldn’t stop staring and as I did, I questioned reality asking, “Is this America?” I know the argument that other religions dress funny like the Hasidic Jews or even the Amish, who by the way all look alike. I’m sorry, there is a big difference between a head scarf, suspenders and a full body tent with two holes cut out for eyes —it just doesn’t compare.
Meanwhile, back at Walmart the woman in the niqab was struggling to see under her sunglasses, holding Windex in one hand and a pair of trendy pink flip-flops in the other. Shoppers were making wide turns to avoid these two. Although straining toward a politically correct effort not to gawk, I could see that inquisitive shoppers were just pretending to read the ingredients on the products they held in their hands, while every eyeball was riveted on Abdul and Habibah.
Or how about the woman I encountered in Starbucks trying to drink a Caramel Macchiato in a burqua? My thought at the time was maybe she should put the drink on the floor and snake a garden hose up under her garment and into her mouth. Then, the only thing suggestive of latte drinking would be the veil covering her face billowing like a sail on a mizzen mast.
Originally, my first reaction to burqua-draped females was mild interest; my second, feigned respect and then following close behind was infuriated rage! I became outright indignant and it showed. In my heart and on my face I was ripping headgear off and throwing it to the floor in a blasphemous statement…and saving Judeo-Christian foundations in the process. After watching what could best be described as a religious sideshow I lost my ability to acquiesce to the First Amendment and wondered what the framers of the Constitution would say about the abuse American culture is presently being forced to endure.
The First Amendment does says that, “The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretext, infringed.” However, Santeria is a religion and animal sacrifice, which is an integral part of that faith, is still against the law. Can’t we outlaw burquas? Burquas offend much more and at least you can eat dead chickens.
I can’t help thinking America is presently the victim of a Santeria ritual being slaughtered under the oppression of a Muslim culture that is slitting the throat of cultural sanity. I also can’t help but believe that to ask an American citizen to be subjected to the scene similar to the one in Walmart, while simply buying laundry soap, is an “…abridgement of civil rights on account of Muslim religious belief or worship.”
The couple in Walmart had no problem inflicting on modern American culture a fashion statement instituted in the days of the Byzantine Empire and while doing so dared Americans to object.
Reality is, we’re under invasion, literally and culturally and the invasion includes subjugation. American culture is being subjected to having to endure infiltration by a religious system that insists, regardless of how much it offends, that America submit to a 1500-year old tradition…and dare not complain about it.
Fatwa aside and risking suffering the potential fate of Salman Rushdie, part of my new plan to address the problem is to disobey my much revered late father and stare. I plan on staring down every woman in a burqua I run across whether pumping gas or picking up dry cleaning. Hopefully, my staring will send a message making marauding shrouded entities more uncomfortable than they make me –forcing niqābīah; to either assimilate, take the sartorial hijāb off, or take it somewhere else.
Cross posted at: www.jeannie-ology.com
Moe Lane
Steve Maley
Dan McLaughlin
Neil Stevens
Daniel Horowitz
Once again you have hit one out of the park....
JadedByPolitics (Diary) Thursday, November 12th at 8:12PM EST (link)Oh they are DARING us to say something. I worked with a guy whose wife never wore a hijab until AFTER 9-11 to see if someone would screw with her OBTW HUGE lefties both of them!
I will stare and if they say something they will get their what for! I find the whole thing to be a slap in the face of Americans! You are either going to assimilate or turn around and go home. America is NOT for you to come here to change it for you to come here to enjoy the FREEDOM’s that exist here and those burkas are NOT FREEDOM they are BONDAGE!
OBTW I used to mock and stare at the moonies in their orange robes too so I am an equal opportunist when it comes to mockery
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Burqua's and Starbucks just don't flow
jeannieology (Diary) Thursday, November 12th at 9:00PM EST (link)Jaded…we’ll gawk together OK girl?
oh we will gawk alright :) great diary jeannie!...nt
JadedByPolitics (Diary) Friday, November 13th at 6:29AM EST (link)..
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Excellent, Excellent, Excellent
Scope (Diary) Thursday, November 12th at 9:02PM EST (link)Even Sarkozy said there is no room for burkas in France. England has been overtaken by the Muslims. Now, we have to get a House and Senate to agree, fat chance.
Excellent, Excellent, Excellent
Scope (Diary) Thursday, November 12th at 9:02PM EST (link)Even Sarkozy said there is no room for burkas in France. England has been overtaken by the Muslims. Now, we have to get a House and Senate to agree, fat chance.
I, for one, don't gawk
mschmitt (Diary) Friday, November 13th at 7:42AM EST (link)… and the reason is very simple. For many women, this type of dress is the tangible evidence of repression (for all you know, they WANT to take the darn thing off); for others, it could be a perfectly harmless expression of their culture and/or religion. To me, assimilation into America is about embracing individual liberty and freedom — not dress — so if the dress truly indicates a lack of freedom, it is something to be pitied, not shamed; and if it is an expression of religion: heck, welcome to America!
For me, whenever I see such a lady, I go a little further out of my way to do the “gentleman” stuff (picking up things they’ve dropped, offering to carry things, opening and holding doors, applying proper elevator etiquette, etc.).
In this way, on the one hand, the ones who are cast as less than human in their homes and homeland will see that — in America — they are not dogs (as an aside, I wonder how many are shamed just to have been “noticed” by a man). On the other, those who simply want you to KNOW that they are proud Muslims need to realize that America has traditionally embraced freedoms of every sort — particularly religious freedoms — and will continue to do so for as long as they support ours in kind (oh, and don’t try to kill us).
I appreciate your wisdom as an elder, jeannieology; and by your standards, I’m just a young buck. But I sincerely think you should reconsider your approach.
usque ad finem
I understand their oppression
jeannieology (Diary) Friday, November 13th at 9:18AM EST (link)and I sympathize with that part of it…however, I resent having to be subjected to seeing my country turned into Persia.
This attire is an in your face message that in “the land of the free and the home of the brave” discrimination and repression can take “cover” under a mantle of religious freedom. Curiously, I’m surprised that more liberated women don’t object…but I digress.
In addition, the ultimate plan is to have every other woman you see while out shopping eventually draped in the same attire.
The other day at Ft. Hood Nidal Hasan was practicing his religion when he murdered 13 American soldiers fighting a religious war against our nation — its time America set the standards for our nation — not usurpers who don’t have woman or our nations best interest at heart.
If you are a “Young Buck” your gentlemanly nature is appreciated but you haven’t been subjected to what the rest of us have for as long as we have — eventually those rose colored Ray Bans will come off and you’ll see the threats around us in the same way we old folks do.
mschmitt, I am going out on a limb in and give you support.
penguin2 (Diary) Friday, November 13th at 10:17AM EST (link)First, I had typed and then deleted a lengthy response to the diary last night. Cowardly I am and did not want to ignite a firestorm. Today, I will try to express my feelings on this.
I certainly understand that the burqa represents to us oppression and subjugation of women. Along with that is the understanding of the extremes of Islam practices and beliefs, including of course, Sharia Law. To my Western woman’s eyes and world view, I want all women to have freedom and liberty.
IMO, it is important to recognize that we are using a Western world view to judge the Mid-Eastern. I think some of the reaction to what we see is out of our angst about Muslim extremism. Here is where I am trying to go with this: you mentioned the Amish and Hasidic Jews. Ultra-orthodox Jewish women dress are almost covered head to toe as well, from their toes to every hair on their head. Amish women have head coverings as well, as leg coverings. I remember 100 degree days in NY and seeing the Orthodox Jewish women and thinking how miserable they must be.
Yes, France has outlawed headscarves for Muslim girls. The ban also includes wearing the Christian cross and yarmulke for Jewish boys in their public schools. To me, this is an infringement on religious freedom. Our nation has always enjoyed cultural and religious freedom, I do not want to see that happen here.
Religious/cultural beliefs and practices often include modest dress for the women. Our Americanized idea of freedom has practically stripped our women to be almost naked in public. Why should we force that on other cultures? Assimilation usually occurs over several generations and the cultural changes evolve
for the immigrants. Some of that is good, some not so much.
I understand what Jeannie is saying. And I certainly agree if it a forced issue, then working to enlighten and educate people is helpful. The diarist judged the man in Arab dress as well as the woman. This has been difficult to explain, but I am glad that you said what you did mschmitt.
Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. – Benjamin Franklin
When Good stands up to Evil, Evil blinks. – Vassar Bushmills
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I did the exact same thing, penguin...
mschmitt (Diary) Friday, November 13th at 11:00AM EST (link)… typed a response, changed my mind at the last second, but then typed it out another one again this morning.
At this point, all I would like to add is that I, too, understand the threats we face (all too well, I’m afraid): to our lives, nation, and our very cultural existence.
So, to be clear, I’m not advocating phony political correctness; just that we should be precise in our thinking. The people who deserve our scorn — and our aide in delivering them before their God if necessary — are those who are intent on destroying us or our way of life (for much the same reason that they oppress and kill their women).
As you said; for many of these people, adapting to a new culture is tough. This dress, though strange to us, is all they’ve been allowed to wear since birth; and likewise, they’ve been trained to see western fashions as immodest and ugly.
These things take time — possibly generations — though possibly much less if we embrace them as people and teach them about American ideas on religious tolerance.
usque ad finem
Which is what I advocate...
jeannieology (Diary) Friday, November 13th at 12:23PM EST (link)Assimilation into our Judeo-Christian culture!
If they view western fashion as immodest and ugly why did they leave the east? No immodesty there? -Why would a person want to live in the ocean if they hate water other than hoping to get everyone who loves water to hate it too? That is simple logic as far as I can tell.
I understand what you are saying and appreciate your sensitivity — problem is I’m at the point in my life where I require some sensitivity too — my nation, better judgment, environment and shopping trips are being inundated with insensitivity on the part of other cultures that are intent on inflicting there archaic ways of life on my day — and I can’t help it I have to be honest…it bothers me.
And I would guess that it bothers a lot of other Americans too, if they were honest about it!
They have no intention
sharonmcp (Diary) Sunday, November 15th at 10:58AM EST (link)“If they view western fashion as immodest and ugly why did they leave the east?”
They have no intention, at least the majority of the men don’t, of assimilating into Western Culture.
And what happens to the women who dare to?
“Orchard Park police are investigating a particularly gruesome killing, the beheading of a woman, after her husband — an influential member of the local Muslim community — reported her death to police Thursday….Authorities say Aasiya Hassan recently had filed for divorce from her husband.”
http://www.buffalonews.com/494/story/578644.html
“A 57-year-old Canadian man suspected of strangling his teenage daughter for not wearing her traditional Muslim head wear will appear in court later today for a bail hearing.”
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=3987812
“Yaser Abdel Said is wanted for murder. On January 1, 2008, Said took his two teenaged daughters for a ride in his taxi cab, under the guise of taking them to get something to eat. He drove them to Irving, Texas, where he allegedly shot both girls to death.” (because they were too ‘Western’)
http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/fugitives/vc/murders/said_y.htm
“Atlanta — A Pakistani man, apparently upset his daughter wanted out of her arranged marriage, strangled her with a bungee cord, according to arrest warrants revealed Monday afternoon in Clayton County Magistrate Court.”
http://www.aina.org/news/20080707165033.htm
“(CNN) — Arizona police are looking for an Iraqi man who they allege ran down his daughter [who later died] and her friend because he believed his daughter had become ‘too Westernized.’”
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/10/21/arizona.iraqi.daughter.struck/index.html
That the ‘liberal women of the media’ would tolerate and in some instances, defend, the religious customs and beliefs of those who commit such atrocities, while denouncing and ridiculing the religious customs and beliefs of the Amish, shows the depth of their hypocrisy.
“Above all, we must realize that no arsenal, or no weapon in the arsenals of the world, is so formidable as the will and moral courage of free men and women.” ~ Ronald Reagan
5 5 5....nuff said...nt
JadedByPolitics (Diary) Sunday, November 15th at 8:16PM EST (link)…
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555 Sharon
Warrior (Diary) Monday, November 16th at 6:18PM EST (link)The feminists had nothing to say about Boy Clinton, a textbook example of what feminists had railed about before his pecadillos became public — a man in authority using his power to sexually seduce and/or harrass female subordinates.
It seems the feminists are only outraged by caddish behavior from conservatives and Republicans…
(And not at all by such behavior from anyone who might blow them to Kingdom Come, like extremist Muslims…)
“Racial criteria are irrational, irrelevant, [and] odious to our way of life.” — Thurgood Marshall for the NAACP Legal Defense Fund in the 1950 Supreme Court case of McLaurin v. Oklahoma
Penquin...LOL
jeannieology (Diary) Friday, November 13th at 12:31PM EST (link)You said the exact thing as my sister about Orthodox Jewish women…
Its not so much about the dress…as you say its about the attitude behind it…Muslim women embody oppression and discrimination which is intrinsic to the faith—honor killings and other seedy practices are also Islamic religious practices — which cannot be found in civilized cultures — so veiled women epitomize much more than an affinity for muslin or modesty.
When my grandparents came from Italy they wore ethnic outfits because they sat on the side of mountains with goats — when they came to America…they assimilated and wore the garb of this nation — because they wanted to be American and identify themselves as American.
I think this is something else — I hope I’m wrong – in the meantime we’ll see.
It was the attitude behind it that caused me to reccommend it.
Steph C (Diary) Friday, November 13th at 12:59PM EST (link)I don’t care what they wear or what they have an affinity for but this claim of offense when it is not the norm for this country is grating at best. They should not expect special treatment over and above everyone else.
I used to have a number of gay employees, 3 of them out of a crew of 13. Of the 3, one was a problem such as you described above. His “gayness” was to be tolerated no matter how offensive he, in particular, was. I hate to admit but the other two employees gave me the leeway to fire the first one. For him, every day was a day for that San Francisco fair that is held there one or two weeks out of the year. He was offensive to the rest of the crew and to the customers; lewd gestures and sexual innuendos were a constant with him… and dared me to fire him by threatening to take me to court.
That experience helped me identify with your experience of the burka clad lady and her husband. They dare you to notice and when you do, they claim offense.
“[I]f the public are bound to yield obedience to laws to which they cannot give their approbation, they are slaves to those who make such laws and enforce them.” –Candidus in the Boston Gazette, 1772
Hillbilly Politics
Steph...isn't it amazing
jeannieology (Diary) Friday, November 13th at 1:11PM EST (link)Look at me, look at me…why are you looking at me?
As far as I’m concerned the burqua clad woman might as well be walking around in a thong…same thing…it calls attention to itself and then act like, “What are you looking at?”
Its all bull dung…and I, quite frankly, am sick of it.
So am I.
Steph C (Diary) Friday, November 13th at 1:43PM EST (link)Now, if they invited attention to open a dialogue that would be a different matter entirely. I’m down with that. Unfortunately, it’s all about being offended rather than any sort of tolerance.
It’s really a double-edged sword, this assimilation thing. I knew a woman at my old apartment complex whose husband had left her because she was too Americanized. I suppose she’s lucky not to have experienced the honor killing variety of retribution but still…
Mailloux has a wonderful take on the burka.
“[I]f the public are bound to yield obedience to laws to which they cannot give their approbation, they are slaves to those who make such laws and enforce them.” –Candidus in the Boston Gazette, 1772
Hillbilly Politics
Agree Jeannie, I'm glad you took my comments in that light.
penguin2 (Diary) Friday, November 13th at 1:00PM EST (link)It is what it represents to us and we have reason to be obviously concerned. For security issues here in this country as well as regards the oppression of women. It is just that in my heart, I felt like we should recognize and accept the differences that occur culturally and religiously. The difficulty we face to today is the association we have with Islamic extremism and the evil it presents to us. Still, there needs to be a separation of the extreme, from their own personal choices.
Assimilation comes over several generations, and when a culture gives up everything that was traditional and meaningful to them, to take on the new culture, it is saying one is better than the other. The ideal would be to be able to blend the best elements of both worlds.
Many other countries/cultures have women garbed far more modestly than ours, and I guess I was just trying to say that is acceptable. I do not want to see Francelike thinking infringe on our religious/cultural freedom. America was founded on religious freedom and everyday we have to fight to maintain it.
Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. – Benjamin Franklin
When Good stands up to Evil, Evil blinks. – Vassar Bushmills
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Well said penguin
jeannieology (Diary) Friday, November 13th at 1:08PM EST (link)well said
I echo, jeannie, however...
Steph C (Diary) Friday, November 13th at 1:39PM EST (link)Tolerance, or acceptance, is not a one-way street. There has to be some two way interactions above the offensive kind. What we have is a willingness to subjugate ourselves (a bending over backward to avoid offending anyone) while those who accept that tolerance exhibit none of their own.
We cannot live in a state where the threat of perpetual outrage and its consequences become the norm.
“[I]f the public are bound to yield obedience to laws to which they cannot give their approbation, they are slaves to those who make such laws and enforce them.” –Candidus in the Boston Gazette, 1772
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Oh no Steph, not talking political correctness here.
penguin2 (Diary) Friday, November 13th at 2:03PM EST (link)Not in my mind at all. In fact pc stuff is what the French are making happen. A secular state and everyone the same, to the extent that it
infringes on religious freedom. Actually, it is our pc mantra in this country, that is so harmful to Christians and Jews, and not the Muslims. I am just recognizing the religious/cultural choices of other nations, faiths, etc.
The perpetual outrage in this country seems to be directed so often against the traditional American. It is an unceasing burden we have, to fight against the destruction of our own traditional religious/cultural beliefs and practices.
I’m 100% with you on that.
Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. – Benjamin Franklin
When Good stands up to Evil, Evil blinks. – Vassar Bushmills
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P.C. is the mantra
Steph C (Diary) Friday, November 13th at 2:46PM EST (link)under which tyranny comes.
“[I]f the public are bound to yield obedience to laws to which they cannot give their approbation, they are slaves to those who make such laws and enforce them.” –Candidus in the Boston Gazette, 1772
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Do you know Nazism
jeannieology (Diary) Friday, November 13th at 3:03PM EST (link)started with political correctness?
Not sure why you two are still on this.
mschmitt (Diary) Friday, November 13th at 3:05PM EST (link)Neither penguin nor myself said a word about political correctness. To the contrary.
usque ad finem
Err, correction.
mschmitt (Diary) Friday, November 13th at 3:07PM EST (link)I said a few words about political correctness to point out how I didn’t want my comments misconstrued as being based on a misguided notion of PC.
usque ad finem
er, penguin mentioned the pc mantra
Steph C (Diary) Friday, November 13th at 3:19PM EST (link)in the comment to which I replied????
If it helps, penguin and I are friends. I’m not bashing her and she knows it.
“[I]f the public are bound to yield obedience to laws to which they cannot give their approbation, they are slaves to those who make such laws and enforce them.” –Candidus in the Boston Gazette, 1772
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Who me? Couldn't be!
penguin2 (Diary) Friday, November 13th at 3:25PM EST (link)LOL, I did think you were talking about pc stuff and I wanted to clarify that I wasn’t.
We’re cool here schmitt. and it does explain why I very carefully wrote out my point of view, so I would not ignite a firestorm. And did not want anyone to think penguin had lost her mind.
Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. – Benjamin Franklin
When Good stands up to Evil, Evil blinks. – Vassar Bushmills
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It's okay, lol.
Steph C (Diary) Friday, November 13th at 3:41PM EST (link)We’ll grow old and gray (oh wait a minute, I’m already there) smacking our gums and laughing over it.
“[I]f the public are bound to yield obedience to laws to which they cannot give their approbation, they are slaves to those who make such laws and enforce them.” –Candidus in the Boston Gazette, 1772
Hillbilly Politics
OK, fair enough!
mschmitt (Diary) Friday, November 13th at 3:46PM EST (link)I also read Steph’s comment as casting us in the light of the PC crowd for our (mild!) dissent, when nothing could be further from the truth.
usque ad finem
Oh, no.
Steph C (Diary) Friday, November 13th at 4:33PM EST (link)I wouldn’t do that, especially wouldn’t based on wha t you wrote, lol. Actually, I was concurring with Penguin’s statement on the p.c. mantra.
“[I]f the public are bound to yield obedience to laws to which they cannot give their approbation, they are slaves to those who make such laws and enforce them.” –Candidus in the Boston Gazette, 1772
Hillbilly Politics
I wasn't addressing that to you
jeannieology (Diary) Friday, November 13th at 3:29PM EST (link)I was addressing the P.C. mantra that Steph put up there
Yes, but we're not supposed to invoke Hitler, you know.
Steph C (Diary) Friday, November 13th at 3:24PM EST (link)That would be fear mongering.
Or the heresy of Galileo when somebody wants to cite ‘consensus’ on global warming.
Or communism, or socialism, or point out where progressives are really regressive…
It’s the word, not the intent that counts. We describe it however we want as long as we don’t use the actual words or question the liberals’ patriotism.
“[I]f the public are bound to yield obedience to laws to which they cannot give their approbation, they are slaves to those who make such laws and enforce them.” –Candidus in the Boston Gazette, 1772
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Turnabout *is* fair play.
Uma Richie (Diary) Friday, November 13th at 8:08AM EST (link)On my very first Navy port visit, we pulled pier side near Dubai, a city that’s no stranger to westerners. I was dressed in accord with the Navy’s mandated liberty attire for that part of the world, so I was well covered except for my head.
When we got into town, I stopped at a bank to exchange currency, and a woman in the head-to-toe-with-mask combo looked my way, then grabbed her two children and buried their heads in her bosom. I’m no beauty queen, but I’ve never had that reaction before or since.
Anyway, jeannie, if you can stare, I can shield my kids’ eyes.
Uma that made me laugh
mom2oneson (Diary) Friday, November 13th at 11:19AM EST (link)I am pictured her hiding her kids faces you poor thing! What a way to be greeted. If it makes you feel any better I noticed they are basically trained to look away if a woman is uncovered. I saw this with my former husband. We would knock for a friend and he would kind of stand at the side of the door. Once there was a situation where I was already there and she needed me to grab her scarf I had no idea what she was saying, he couldn’t enter LOL it was kind of funny. Even she would look away ont he tv if they were watching soccer and it showed a man legs close up in shorts. I bet they at the bank they were probably boys? I don’t know but that is what I’m guessing. Once when he visited me I was in the shower and answered the door in the towel, it was a bath towel not an immodest one, we where alreayd seperated but he was looking down to look away LOL did the sork bring our son? It was kind of funny. Don’t feel bad it was just a natural reaction if it was just the two of you alone you would probably be surprised at how relaxed and comfortable she would be with you. They are actually very “relaxed” with women things that are unheard of here (like a mother in law buying her daughter in law lingerie like maybe here her best friend would) are just normal there.
Glad I could give you a chuckle.
Uma Richie (Diary) Friday, November 13th at 6:25PM EST (link)I don’t think I caught a good enough look at the children to have determined whether they were girls or boys or one of each. It only happened once and was out of sync with everything else in Dubai.
To be fair, there were some things I admired about Arab culture — great food and the role of family immediately come to mind; however, over two years, I detected plenty of religious hypocrisy and two-faced treatment of westerners. In the end, I felt that much of the friendly behavior towards us was the product of required hospitality, business acumen, or proselytization rather than an expression of genuine affection. Of course the degree varied from country to country.
LIVING BY THE BOOK
reelman (Diary) Friday, November 13th at 4:34PM EST (link)LIVING “BY THE BOOK”…
OFF NEWSBUSTERS.ORG:
“The most relevant point is that here is a man (Hasan) doing exactly what it says in his “holy book”
Here he is following these things it says in his book:
“Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]…
until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued.” (Surah 9:29)
“When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters [non-moslims] wherever you find them.
Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them.” (Surah 9:5)
“Believers! Know that idolators [non-moslims] are unclean.” (Surah 9:28)
“If you fear treachery from any of your allies, you may fairly retaliate by breaking off
your treaty with them.” (Surah 9:12)
“Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends.” (Surah 5:51)
“Fight unbelievers [non-moslims] who are near to you.” (Surah 9:123)
“Unbelievers [non-moslims] are enemies of Allah and they will roast in hell.” (Surah 41:14)
“The Day of Resurrection will not arrive until the Moslims make war against the Jews and
kill them, and until a Jew hiding behind a rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say:
‘Oh Moslem, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!’”
(Sahih Bukhari 004.52.176)
“Unbelievers [non-moslims] are those who say: ‘God is one of three.’ There is but one God.
If they do not desist from so saying, those of them that disbelieve shall be sternly punished.”
(Surah 5:73)
“The Christians say: The Christ is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths;
they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them.” (Sura 9:30)
“The unbelievers [non-moslims] are the firewood of hell.” (Surah 72:15)
“When you meet the unbelievers [non-moslims], smite their necks, then when you have made
wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom,
until the war lays down its burdens.” (Surah 47:4)
“Prophet make war on the unbelievers [non-moslims] and the hypocrites [non-literalist moslims]
and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home.” (Surah 9:73)
THAT’s the relevant issue here.
Anyone who believes these things are true, is BY DEFINITION a threat to whatever country they reside in.
If islam were a small cult of a few 1000 people, they would be persona non-grata in ANY civilized country.
But since there’s a billion of them, some people think it’s politically expedient to allow people with such beliefs into America?”
=====
A post on newsbusters.org Nov 13, 2009 by notonmywatch
(how many centuries has islam had to remove or greatly modify these statements…well, how many?)
http://conservablogs.com/theconservativecrawfish
“Ignore what is said, watch what is done”
The problem is congress…is congress…
Secular Socialism is never the answer…
“This is where we hold them, this is where we fight”
The “reelman” in central Louisiana
How is wearing a burqua so horribly offensive?
bdover1 Sunday, November 15th at 4:29AM EST (link)Jeanieology…I humbly suggest that you may be being a little too sensitive about the whole thing.
I am totally with you on this one point: I don’t get why people go out of their way to look weird (tattoos, etc) and then get all offended when people stare. As far as I’m concerned, stare away, they are asking for it.
I realize burquas are rooted in a long history of subjugation of women in middle eastern countries, and as such I don’t much care for them. Nonetheless, people have the right to look however they want…and you, in turn, have every right to stare at them and then go home and rant about it on the internet. Freedom of expression is wonderful that way.
However, I fail to see how a few people wearing middle eastern garb is such a total affront to your religious freedom, or judeo-christian principles, or whatever. That couple in walmart, which you describe as being “subjected to,” did not have to affect you in any way. They were just 2 people, going about their business, and you could have simply gone about yours, rather than being so threatened. I am puzzled as to why you are so deeply offended at the mere existence of 2 people who follow the islam religion. I do not follow your leap from the existence of these people to some sinister invasion of american culture.
I am also puzzled by your obsession with forcing these people to assimilate. You do realize that we are not traditionally any one particular culture, but rather a mixture of cultures from all over the world? We should be celebrating the fact that we have a wide variety of people here…it is what makes america so great.
Furthermore, it has been my observation that people who move here from some other country cannot assimilate all at once. It takes time, they do it gradually, as they are ready to. It is completely unreasonable to demand that people instantly become american just so that you do not have to feel uncomfortable because you happen to see someone who is different than you.
Look at me, I’m a troll who picks a username full of adolescent ‘humor’ before I get banned.
You miserable stupid jackass.
Third Street (Diary) Sunday, November 15th at 5:05AM EST (link)This rainbows-and-unicorns horsecrap was only slightly more amusing before the “wide variety of people” we should be celebrating blew away a bunch of soldiers on an Army base. In the wake of that it is truly hateful and obnoxious.
Take your passive-aggressive “someone who is different than you” leftist sanctimony and shove it. You are the dumbest, most insensitive, most idiotic and thoughtless clod imaginable to trot this garbage out as your first post, only a week after a Muslim terrorist attack that claimed over a dozen American lives. Get the hell out of here.
“Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery.” –Wilkins Micawber, “David Copperfield”
Third Street...
mschmitt (Diary) Sunday, November 15th at 8:02AM EST (link)If you’ll look up-thread, I and a few others already had this discussion. bdover1 here could quite well still out him/herself as a concern troll or moby; but as it stands, s/he could just use a minor correction on why assimilation on certain things — such as love of liberty — is so doggone important.
usque ad finem
Thanks a lot for the insult
bdover1 Sunday, November 15th at 3:19PM EST (link)No, I don’t think I’m a troll. Yes, I do tend to swing more toward the liberal side of things, but I’ve been reading this website for a while because I’m interested to see what “the other side” has to say. If that makes me a troll, than so be it, I’m a troll.
I just read this diary and I wanted to voice my opinion that things like forced assimilation and outlawing certain religious garments would be a dangerous affront to the freedoms that we all celebrate in this country. You cannot have the freedom to bash me on the internet unless you are willing to allow others to have the freedom to wear whatever they wish, or follow whatever religion they want. You cannot ban one without banning the other.
And yes, I realize that the attack on Fort Hood happened recently. And yeah, maybe it’s insensitive to talk about the fact that muslim people have the right to freedom of religion now. But I think it is much worse to lump people like those 2 innocent people that jeanieology saw in walmart together with the sick and depraved people who would do such a thing as shoot people on an army base, simply because they follow the same religion.
Look at me, I’m a troll who picks a username full of adolescent ‘humor’ before I get banned.
bdover1, thanks for proving...
mschmitt (Diary) Sunday, November 15th at 9:32PM EST (link)… me wrong in such a spectacular way.
usque ad finem
What do you mean?
bdover1 Sunday, November 15th at 10:44PM EST (link)That I’m a troll after all? I’m honestly not trying to be a troll…I thought a troll was someone who says purposely inflammatory things for the sole purpose of making people argue. Yeah, I guess I had the effect of making people argue further down the thread, but that really wasn’t what I was going for. I was just saying what I thought, in what I thought was a respectful manner. Maybe you all have a different definition of “troll” around here.
Look at me, I’m a troll who picks a username full of adolescent ‘humor’ before I get banned.
I stuck up for you...
mschmitt (Diary) Sunday, November 15th at 10:55PM EST (link)… by saying “s/he could just use a minor correction on why assimilation on certain things — such as love of liberty — is so doggone important.”
Anyone who is able to equate the position of the Catholic Church regarding abstinence (by the way, indisputably the most effective contraceptive/STD preventative) to the murderous tyrants who want to kill all who do not submit needs more than “a minor correction.”
usque ad finem
OK
bdover1 Sunday, November 15th at 11:27PM EST (link)Thanks for sticking up for me by the way. And thanks for answering my question like as though I’m an actual human being.
Look at me, I’m a troll who picks a username full of adolescent ‘humor’ before I get banned.
You expected something more from it?
Third Street (Diary) Sunday, November 15th at 10:59PM EST (link)I mean, seriously: It’s making apologies for a bloodthirsty 9th Century death cult only a week after one of its practitioners committed the first terrorist attack on American soil since 9/11. If that’s not worthy of our eternal scorn and condemnation then I don’t know what is.
As for you, bdover1, I’m disgusted to see you’re still here. I’d have banned your weak, mewling punk ass hours ago. Perhaps the “b” stands for “bend”; that would certainly be appropriate.
“Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery.” –Wilkins Micawber, “David Copperfield”
And just now I'm seeing its post equating the Pope to suicide bombers.
Third Street (Diary) Sunday, November 15th at 11:05PM EST (link)Classy. But I’m not surprised at all. Give the benefit of the doubt to somebody lower than compost, and chances are you’ll get a load all over you.
“Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery.” –Wilkins Micawber, “David Copperfield”
"sinister invasion of american culture"
kyle8 (Diary) Sunday, November 15th at 8:15AM EST (link)You sound exactly like a lot of Brits did a decade ago. Now they have moslems running a large part of their government. They are closing down pubs and enacting all sorts of laws so that they don’t offend moslems.
In parts of London they are awakened by the call for prayer on huge loudspeakers and they can’t do a damn thing about it.
They have a rash of honor killings and the police are afraid to investigate because it will offend.
Lately there have been attacks on Jews.
No, some cultures are not compatible with a modern, just, and free society. This iron age death cult is one of them.
“Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty”
Kyle
Being one of the weird looking tattooed people...
nessa (Diary) Sunday, November 15th at 11:21AM EST (link)…I thought I would take a shot at this one.
I’ve never met anyone heavily tatted who was offended by someone looking at their art. Walk up and ask if you can get a better look, I have them so that people can see them and if I’m not in a rush I’ll gladly stop and show off a bit. I have tats because I want them, not because it is culturally required. They are my choice, no one forced me to get them, no one is going to kill me because I don’t have them.
If burquas were an individual choice people might still stare but no one would be offended by them. The offensive thing is centuries of individual repression continuing today inside a Nation founded on the freedom of the individual.
As for your views on assimilation into our society, my family came here 170 years ago. While they remained Scandinavian and continued to celebrate their heritage, they recognized that they were now Americans. The children immediately began to learn English. On the rare occasions the children were taken to town, it was a two or three day trip, English was the rule. While the family knew Swedish even my grandmother had stories about her older brothers getting a stern reminder, usually in the form of a cuff upside the head, that in public English was the language to be used.
They adapted to their new surroundings becoming American. Not force their new surroundings to change to what they were used to in “the old country.” Not forcing America to become Swede, not forcing other Americans to recognize them as Swedish and deal with them differently than everyone else or give them special treatment in the name of diversity.
The “assimilation” you speak of above used to be a “chemical reaction.” The immigrants that were added to the mix were changed when they intermingled with their fellow Americans, the entire mix became something new and uniquely American. The diversity lauded by the left today isn’t a chemical reaction, there is no change in the individual ingredients being added to American society, instead Americans are asked to change to meet the requirements of the newly added. The melting pot no longer has any heat, new immigrants don’t want to become American they want to be something hyphenated and change our culture to reflect theirs. Hell, even long time Americans are jumping on the hyphenated bandwagon, trying to separate themselves from the mixture and re-form into something they never quite were.
Just like the America of 170 years ago that didn’t speak Swedish, the America of today doesn’t speak Spanish and we don’t submit to Sharia Law. Immigrants need to change to adapt to their new surroundings, it was proven in the past that they can do so while retaining their cultural identity without demanding that we, Americans lose our cultural identity.
“If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
Contributor to Unified Patriots
teh twitter
I see what you're saying
bdover1 Sunday, November 15th at 3:44PM EST (link)I never meant to imply that people should come here and then force us all to change to accommodate them. I just meant that we shouldn’t force them to change either, just so that we don’t have to be “confronted” with their existence. If we do that, we are no better than the oppressive regime they left behind. I guess I’m trying to say “live and let live?”
And just for the record, I don’t have anything against tattooed people or anything…I just used tattoos as an example because it was also used in the diary. I realize that tattoos are different than burquas because no one ever forced anyone to get a tattoo. Burquas represent hundreds of years of oppression. However, if we then tell women that they cannot wear a burqua, how are we any different than the people who forced them to wear it in the first place?
Look at me, I’m a troll who picks a username full of adolescent ‘humor’ before I get banned.
What you are missing bdover1 is that the burka....
JadedByPolitics (Diary) Sunday, November 15th at 3:52PM EST (link)is subjugation and in America those women are still NOT free! France is saying that is unacceptable and WE should too! In this country ALL are free to be themselves and EVERYONE including yourself surely knows that these women are less then in the eyes of their “husband”. It is like viewing a woman being beaten by her husband and doing nothing, WE wouldn’t allow that and WE shouldn’t allow this. It is hardly about religion it is about power It was added into Sharia Laws MUCH later on in the Muslim religion because it is a power tool and WE should NEVER allow a man to have power over a woman EVER!
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But that is what is happening, bdover...
nessa (Diary) Sunday, November 15th at 6:47PM EST (link)…they are coming here acting and dressing out of the ordinary for their new surroundings and then screaming discrimination and intolerance when they get looked at funny. Well duh! Its a pitiful but successful attempt to control our actions and gain the upper hand for their own.
My intent with the tattoo comments was to highlight the Muslim’s own intolerance. I like every other heavily tatted person I know enjoys the attention, my tats represent who I am, please notice, I’ll take the time to tell you the story behind each and every one, I’ll also tell you who the artist was and where he works now in-case you want to get some work done.
I agree it should NOT be legislated, government has no place in this disagreement. But neither should their right to wear it be “protected” by that same government.
“If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
Contributor to Unified Patriots
teh twitter
Nessa...I'm sure you're beautiful
jeannieology (Diary) Sunday, November 15th at 4:43PM EST (link)but it seems to be my experience that some people who call attention to themselves are the least likely to appreciate the attention they get. Kind of like Brad and Angelina getting mad that the papparazzi follows them around — whats that about?
LOL, thank you Jeannie...
nessa (Diary) Sunday, November 15th at 6:54PM EST (link)…and yes you’re right about some attention seekers. The references to tattoo’s struck me because just a few days ago my wife and I were called away from our business’ grand opening for some unrelated business. Our business is a Tattoo Shop, the people we went to meet were related to other things but gave us some very strange looks while our meeting was going on. I met with one of the people a couple days later to seal the deal, so to speak, and he asked me if he could ask a personal question. I said “of course” his question was “if you see someone with tattoo’s can you look, is it alright to stare?” He went on to equate the way he felt about looking at someone’s tats to staring at a person in a wheelchair. This was kind of the second time I’d heard the same question very recently. BTW, the answer is that it is fine to stare and as I mentioned, ask any tattooed person if you can see their work, they’ll love it and show you anything fit for the surroundings. LOL!
“If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
Contributor to Unified Patriots
teh twitter
5^
makemyday (Diary) Sunday, November 15th at 11:13AM EST (link)n/t
When all else fails…….. Shoot!
“Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.” –American author Mark Twain (1835-1910)
“We should never despair, our Situation before has been unpromising and has changed for the better, so I trust, it will again. If new difficulties arise, we must only put forth new Exertions and proportion our Efforts to the exigency of the times.” –George Washington, letter to Philip Schuyler, 1777
It's not often I
redneck_hippie (Diary) Sunday, November 15th at 1:51PM EST (link)slot myself as a squishy moderate, but here I am. I was confronted with a similar encounter you describe not 24 hours ago in the Home Depot. Not having had the leisure to indulge my visual curiosity, I breezed right by the man and his younger companion. I most certainly did want to stand and stare to my heart’s content, but forced family fun was beckoning, and time was short. My usual reaction to these sorts of visual close encounters is the thought that they just want to make their purchases and get back to whatever the heck they need or want to do with their time. I save my indignation for a chief executive who abases himself third world dictators.
That being the case, I am glad you are out there staring down the nonconformist believers in our midst. If I wanted to stare down someone for their lifestyle choices I’d take it to the nearest abortion clinic.
Speaking of abortion clinic, a younger coworker this week was bemoaning the fact that there are a lot more religious conservatives nowadays. I said I thought those who see this should be cognizant of the fact it is not the fundamentalists who are aborting their babies.
Jeannie, please don’t take this as critical of either your work or your views. I simply feel compelled to chime in with my attitude. This is what you get when you cross a redneck prairie farmer’s daughter with a 1960′s tree-hugging John Lennonite. My bible belt traditionalist background is garnished with an impervious sealcoat of toleration.
I had no idea this was going on...
jeannieology (Diary) Sunday, November 15th at 4:30PM EST (link)I didn’t know that this post was getting this conversation…well at least it started a discussion.
redneck – I appreciate what you say – I was just trying to be honest about what I feel and think that my thoughts may be what others feel but don’t or can’t say it.
Funny my hubby Jerry and I were talking about the post on the way home from Church and he said, “Its annoying but God is more concerned with their souls than He is with what they are wearing!”
Also the burka
jeannieology (Diary) Sunday, November 15th at 4:34PM EST (link)is a visual representation of subjugation – should we tolerate everything that religion justifies?
How about honor killing or female circumcision – stoning?
If I decided to walk someone around on a dog chain…and treat them like a slave — claiming it was part of my religion would that be alright too?
I think its stunning that anyone in this nation would defend burkas and not because of what they look like but what they stand for!
www.jeannie-ology.com
Defending religious tolerance is not
redneck_hippie (Diary) Sunday, November 15th at 4:59PM EST (link)equivalent to defending every tenet and/or every sect of a or any religion. Perhaps it would be helpful for you to have known some Muslims personally.
Barbarities are practiced all over the world in the name of religion and those that are against the law are punishable by law.
Trampling on the Constitution
SteveLA (Diary) Sunday, November 15th at 5:55PM EST (link)I’m not sure I know where the line is on what constitutes the line between trampling religious expression and protection of society from practices which I might personally not agree with. I do know that I’m probably only in favor of government of any kind being involved in people’s religious practices as a last resort.
Berka’s as an expression of religious belief is probably one of those issues that I think the differences between France or any other country and this country with our Constitution and Bill or rights makes for a very difficult proposition. The rules for removal of face covering for drivers licenses, appearance in courts and the like are things I can wrap my head around, going beyond that is something that is really getting into a quagmire of what the US Constitution says and means.
______________________________________
Competency over ideological purity and litmus tests
We'd also be trampling on the
redneck_hippie (Diary) Sunday, November 15th at 6:02PM EST (link)Constitution if we advocated arresting those who stare.
I worry much more about the distortion of the Constitution claiming that it includes a spurious separation of church and state.
Ok redneck since barbarities are practiced around the world...
JadedByPolitics (Diary) Sunday, November 15th at 5:57PM EST (link)in the name of religion could you tell us some of those examples that do not include Radical Islam? I mean I am curious because I am not hearing of Catholics, Buddhists etc. killing people but perhaps I am not reading the right papers. I am not being snarky either I want to know other examples that DO NOT include those HUNDREDS of years ago…thanks!
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Jaded,
redneck_hippie (Diary) Sunday, November 15th at 6:20PM EST (link)The 20th century problem was not so much one of religious barbarism as barbarism against the religious. In this country we have laws against committing crimes, including those motivated by religious belief, and that was my point.
Oh I know redneck it is just I am so sick of....
JadedByPolitics (Diary) Sunday, November 15th at 7:03PM EST (link)ANYONE who uses hundreds of years old past offenses as a defense of the HORROR that is occurring around the world on a daily basis in the name of Islam and instead of coming out and DECRYING it places like CAIR send out money making emails about it.
The problem is the perhaps and I say perhaps because I have NOT seen a LARGE group the million within the billion Muslims WILL NOT speak out! The Imams are preaching from their pulpits around the world for jihad. If just HALF of them said enough is enough it would SLOWLY DIE! but they don’t they fear repercussion just as the makers of 2012 the movie feared repercussion. It is PATHETIC!
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I know you didn't ask me, but...
bdover1 Sunday, November 15th at 6:23PM EST (link)Off the top of my head, I would include as an example of “barbarities being practiced in the name of religion,” the pope’s position on the use of condoms to stop the spread of AIDS in africa.
For example, follow this link
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29734328/ns/world_news-africa/
I realize the catholic church is not directly murdering anyone. But people are dying in droves in africa, and if they were simply educated about and provided with condoms, maybe not so many people would get AIDS and die. But the pope fights against this, apparently believing that his personal faith is more important than the lives that could be saved.
Look at me, I’m a troll who picks a username full of adolescent ‘humor’ before I get banned.
REALLY? the Pope's position on condoms is...
JadedByPolitics (Diary) Sunday, November 15th at 7:07PM EST (link)equivalent to homicide bombers, murderous religious shrinks, KSM and his beheading of Daniel Pearl and 19 highjackers killing 3K of our fellow American citizens and on and on? REALLY TOOL? Is that because everyone listens to the Catholic Church in regards to abortion? so extrapolating from that surely EVERYONE is listening to the Church on not using condoms.
Your MORAL RELATIVISM doesn’t fly here sparky take it somewhere else you know to the gutter over at Kos where you obviously would be better accpeted!
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OK
bdover1 Sunday, November 15th at 8:28PM EST (link)You know, if you really wanted an example of barbarism in the name of religion, then why are you working yourself into a frothing rage when I suggest one? You said you were honestly just curious, but that does not seem to be the case. You asked for an example of barbarism in the name of religion, and I gave what I consider to be one. You disagree. OK.
I did not, and would not, claim that fighting against saving lives in africa is the moral equivalent of 9/11 etc. They are two different things and as such I cannot compare them. The most I can say is that they are both heinous acts performed in the name of religion. I am not trying to justify one with the other.
Also, I really don’t understand your comment about abortion.
Look at me, I’m a troll who picks a username full of adolescent ‘humor’ before I get banned.
your example is NOT an example it is...
JadedByPolitics (Diary) Sunday, November 15th at 8:32PM EST (link)some TWISTED moral relativism and you little lefties like to play that game and WE don’t!
WOW you don’t get get the abortion analogy? You say the Pope preaches against condoms and abortion well he certainly is NOT abided by with regards to abortion so why should his preaching on condoms mean a hill of beans?
OBTW I do NOT have frothing rage what I do have is a healthy DISRESPECT for liberals/leftist/Democrats which includes you!
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bdover1, are you kidding? "heinous acts?"
penguin2 (Diary) Sunday, November 15th at 8:43PM EST (link)That’s an outrageous statement on your part. The Pope took the position he did about condoms in Africa, because the root cause of the problem in the spread of Aids was not being addressed. Open and unrestrained sexual intercourse, without moral restraint. He wanted teaching and guidance for abstinence and fidelity, that would go much further in helping prevent the spread of Aids.
You are insulting.
Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. – Benjamin Franklin
When Good stands up to Evil, Evil blinks. – Vassar Bushmills
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Not using condoms equates to barbarism? I don't think so.
nessa (Diary) Sunday, November 15th at 9:05PM EST (link)If Africans don’t want to get AIDS how about not having sex? In fact that method works for anyone, regardless of race or religion.
Barbarism? Hows this…
or this…
Hmmm, Muslims…
“If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
Contributor to Unified Patriots
teh twitter
Video didn't embed, here's a link.
nessa (Diary) Sunday, November 15th at 9:08PM EST (link)Still Muslim though…
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1004446066066
“If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
Contributor to Unified Patriots
teh twitter
But...
bdover1 Sunday, November 15th at 9:59PM EST (link)Look, the catholic church’s response to the problem of AIDS in africa was to LIE to people, and tell them that condoms don’t stop HIV because they have tiny holes in them which let the virus through. Here is a news story about that:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/oct/09/aids
As a result, people are still dying of AIDS, when if they were just educated properly about condoms, they wouldn’t be.
The catholic church lies about condom effectiveness, and thus, people are still dying. That IS a heinous act, done solely to promote their particular anti-science view that condoms don’t work.
Yes, condoms do not 100% block AIDS, but they do block it at least most of the time. I went to your link, Uma Richie, and this is what I read, “Laboratory studies have demonstrated that latex condoms provide an essentially impermeable barrier to particles the size of HIV.” It seems to be that using a condom would be better than using nothing at all…at least then you have a chance. A pretty good chance, by the sound of it.
And yes, I do realize that if they were abstinent or monogamous, that would also help control the spread of AIDS. But just as throwing condoms at the problem is not the only solution, neither is telling people to just stop having sex. They won’t. You need both. Teach them abstain when they can, but if they are going to have sex, use a condom, and educate them about the risks. That is a more realistic solution. If you tell people condoms don’t work, it’s not going to stop them from having sex, it’s just going to stop them from using condoms.
To reiterate, I am NOT trying to deny that some followers of islam do terrible things. I am just trying to say that other religions are not entirely innocent.
Look at me, I’m a troll who picks a username full of adolescent ‘humor’ before I get banned.
and WE are SICK of you equating...
JadedByPolitics (Diary) Sunday, November 15th at 10:09PM EST (link)The Pope’s teachings on condoms with Radical Islam it DOESN’T and AGAIN your moral relativism DOES NOT play here at Redstate!
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Bzzzzt. Wrong again.
Uma Richie (Diary) Sunday, November 15th at 11:38PM EST (link)I could spend hours picking apart your comment. I will try to reduce it to one or two short posts.
This time the information you seek is brought to you another federal entity, the National Institute of Health.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10225589?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=7
You might want to revisit whom you are calling a liar.
You might want to revisit whom you are calling anti-science.
You might want to reeducate yourself on the effectiveness of condoms.
A pet peeve of mine
Uma Richie (Diary) Monday, November 16th at 12:45AM EST (link)is that condom purveyors say things like, “Even with abstinence education, some kids will still have sex,” but can’t admit that “Even with condom education, some sexually active kids will use condoms incorrectly or not at all.”
And your claim that “If you tell people condoms don’t work, it’s not going to stop them from having sex, it’s just going to stop them from using condoms,” is pretty bold. I tend to give the people of Africa more credit for making decisions about their and their children’s fate if presented with all the relevant information.
And finally, since the original diary was about the burkha,
Uma Richie (Diary) Monday, November 16th at 1:15AM EST (link)The male adolescent fantasy of consequence free sex is the burkha of liberalism.
Sex outside marriage oppresses women and girls, yet liberals persist in claiming that it’s okay as long as the man wears a condom. In reality, women bear the brunt of the ill-effects of extramarital sexual activity, including HPV and other STDs, cervical cancer, blood clots from oral contraceptive use, weight gain from oral contraceptive use, mood swings from oral contraceptive use, abortion, abortion complications, post abortion syndrome, endometriosis, ectopic pregnancy, sterility, incompetent cervix during pregnancy, scary abnormal pap smears, breast cancer if they smoke and use oral contraceptives, depression, poor body image, anorexia, bulimia, poverty, physical abuse, mental abuse, drug and alcohol abuse, and poor school performance.
the older I get the more I understand
mom2oneson (Diary) Saturday, November 21st at 12:40PM EST (link)one of the pro-life activists that whispers to me one day that abortion is for men. I remember my Sunday School teacher in high school talking about woman’s fashions (high heels, short skirts) being for men too. Fortunately I was only around good men and had NO idea what he was talking about but now I get it. I don’t know how this part of men that will use women got women to join forces and fight for them . I’d rather be single forever than used by serial boyfriends..what is the appeal to these feminist. For all the poverty and help people in crisis that talk about they should see the #1 safety net of the family is destroyed from people having relations with someone other than thier spouse. People are having less children too, there aren’t going to be so many Aunts and Uncles to pick up the pieces of MIA parents. The less strong families the less friends a kid will have with nice parents to possibly allow them to stay there too. This is really seen in cities. It’s so sad I feel SO BAD for kids. It is such a hard life for them when they sleep on couches and have no adults to guide them into adulthood. It’s not hard in what some people think but not understanding how the adult world works make everything learned by trial and error. Fortunately it seems like for most that parenting is The Great Equalizer, once people have kids they give themselves stable lives automatically by providing for their children. Still it’s so wrong, the struggles could so be prevented, there should be strong families to be the real safety net, I just hate what the feminist movement has done to so many children.
Remedial sex ed for bdover1.
Uma Richie (Diary) Sunday, November 15th at 9:21PM EST (link)Do condoms prevent the spread of AIDS? Only in theory.
For further info, visit the CDC web site. Your tax dollars are paying for it.
http://www.cdc.gov/condomeffectiveness/latex.htm
Please also note on that page that condoms, when used correctly and consistently, *do not* prevent the spread of HPV, which is also a killer by causing cervical cancer.
In short, if you’re a male who has been relying on condoms, please keep your cancer stick to yourself from now on.
LMAO! Nice one Uma!! nt
nessa (Diary) Sunday, November 15th at 9:23PM EST (link)“If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
Contributor to Unified Patriots
teh twitter
the practice of Sati
quoteme Sunday, November 15th at 8:24PM EST (link)It’s the Hindu practice of widows burning to death on their husband’s funeral pyres. In some cases, it was voluntary. In many, it was forced. The practice was recently outlawed in India, but still takes place in rural areas.
I’m sure there are plenty of other contemporary examples.
You got a link for Sati and a recent example?...
JadedByPolitics (Diary) Sunday, November 15th at 8:53PM EST (link)I don’t do the legwork for you example! OBTW since you are sure there are “plenty” of other contemporary examples I will EXPECT a lot of links.
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links
quoteme Sunday, November 15th at 9:52PM EST (link)Roop Kanwar was burned in 1987:
http://www.hinduismtoday.com/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=472
More recently: (2006)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/5273336.stm
Nigerian Christians murder children:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/nigeria/3407882/Child-witches-of-Nigeria-seek-refuge.html
Here’s a money quote from the above story:
“Many of those branded “child-witches” are murdered – hacked to death with machetes, poisoned, drowned, or buried alive in an attempt to drive Satan out of their soul.”
And of course, we have incidents in our own country:
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/homepage/20091008_Faith-healing_parents_charged_in_death_of_infant_son.html
http://www.uwpexponent.org/2009/10/22/column-child-deaths-highlight-need-for-religious-boundaries/
One more thought. I enjoy teaching and informing people. While I don’t expect you to do my “leg work”, I will not respond to hostility again.
Oh please "I will not respond to hostility again"...
JadedByPolitics (Diary) Sunday, November 15th at 10:02PM EST (link)WAH WAH….first off IMO those Christians who do NOT take their children to doctors when they are ill should be in jail and guess what they ARE because its ILLEGAL.
I will take your PALTRY links and say to you that there are NOT 1 billion or any LARGE portion thereof Christians who are SLAUGHTERING around the globe in the name of their God. I get you think that somehow, someway your articles will enlighten me to some different conclusion is WRONG because at the end of the day I will wake up tomorrow and dozens of people will have been blown up by Radical Muslims and that is NOT changing.
I will wake up in America where religion is free and those who practice are free but they are NOT free to change what is the very basic condition of being American and that is to NOT be subjugated to another human being.
The crux of this diary is that the burka is exactly that and the insight of the diary is that those same people WHINE when they are looked at but they want you to look because if those Radicals had their way ALL women in the USA would be in those burkas!
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ok you got me
quoteme Sunday, November 15th at 10:15PM EST (link)I’m going to respond to your hostility. You did not take the time to look at any of the links. You did not have time to read them. Of course, by your post, you appear to be barely literate.
I’m going to get myself banned, and I’m proud of it. Why did I bother posting anything? Because religion, all religions, suck! Islam, Christianity, Judaism. They all suck. They are always misused.
You are so afraid. You are such a coward. Amazing.
I did read them tool....
JadedByPolitics (Diary) Sunday, November 15th at 10:21PM EST (link)I saw the poor children who had been burned in the UK article…
You have NO CLUE how fast I read but that is neither here nor there because your point is to show ALL religion as being bad so as to have Radical Islam not look as bad IT DOESN’T work because there are a ton just like you who have tried the same tack.
We in this country have been at war since 1979 and kept our head in the sand NO LONGER….and idiots like yourself ALWAYS respond back to me…heh!
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Religions vary greatly-- as do atheists
Ann_W (Diary) Monday, November 16th at 2:35PM EST (link)Hinduism has issues with treatment of people that has resulted in many bad acts. But it is not fair to lump Christianity with Hinduism and Islam. If your mind is big enough to deal with nuance, I’ll explain.
When Christians commit atrocities, it is in spite of, not because of the basic tenets of their religion, i. e. “Love one Another”, “Turn the other cheek”, etc. In modern times it will be crazy people within the faith or in the past people completely ignoring Christian beliefs and pretending to be Christian for political power. A vast majority of Christians will always rise up and condemn bad acts done by another Christian, it is not systemic in any way.
And the flip side of that is Christians give more time and money to charities– faith-based and other than non-believers (and the faith-based ones are on the front-line fighting hunger, etc.). I know personal examples where a Christian faith has constrained a desperate person from violence because they don’t want to have to explain their act to God eventually. Also, the church community gives people mentors to reach out to for help and achievement. This community benefits health and happiness, too. (You can look up the studies.)
Let’s look at atheists under the same lens– you don’t get told when a person committing a crime is an atheist, so it’s a little harder, but… Leopold and Loeb were OK with murdering (according to Clarence Darrow) because their faith in God had been destroyed.) Then we have Stalin who organized his “Army of Militant Atheists” that first mocked, then robbed and killed Russian Orthodox believers because they interfered with his atheist utopia. Not to mention the tens of millions of others killed by himself and Mao for the same reason.
The “all religions suck” argument is very trendy now, but they don’t really hold up. Any unbiased observer would have to admit that on balance Christianity is a benefit to the world.
“One of the great mistakes is to judge policies and programs by their intentions rather than their results.”
— Milton Friedman
The War on Poverty– forty-six years and counting!
individuals vary greatly
quoteme Monday, November 16th at 9:09PM EST (link)Most religions have good intentions:
“Do not let your hatred of a people incite you to aggression.” (5:2)
“O mankind! We created you from a male and a female and made you into nations and tribes that you may know and honor each other (not that you should despise one another). Indeed the most honorable of you in the sight of God is the most righteous.” (49:13)
“All God’s creatures are His family; and he or she is the most beloved of God who tries to do most good to God’s creatures.”
The first two quotations are from the Koran. The last was supposedly spoken by Muhammad. There are some ugly quotations from the Koran, but that goes for the Bible, too, especially the Old Testament.
As for Stalin, that guy was a monster, and if there is a hell, he certainly deserves to be there. I’d like to clarify something you said, though. Not all of those millions were killed because of their religion. Many were killed because they were educated. Others were killed because they were deemed a threat to Stalin’s power.
A point I’d like to make is that we shouldn’t need religion. We should be better than this. If the only reason people are good is because they’re afraid of the punishment waiting for them, then people are more messed up than I realized. The fact that people that people allow themselves to be led into doing heinous acts because of their beliefs is unforgivable. Religion doesn’t have the monopoly on this kind of behavior, but it sure has its share.
I’d also like to point out that there are a lot of people who believe in God, but are not religious. My girlfriend’s mom is an example.
On balance Christianity is a force for good in the world
Ann_W (Diary) Tuesday, November 17th at 12:09PM EST (link)…world, was my point.
Not only does Christianity spout good intentions, but those intentions are translated into kind deeds in millions of ways everyday. I could give you a “War and Peace” length novel reciting good deeds done for my family and many others that I have witnessed. Fear of God may motivate at first, but then it’s just a part of living the good news and loving. You may wish that people didn’t need God as a motivation, yet somehow your fellow atheists aren’t contributing as much time and energy to charities that the motivated are. Oh… maybe a little motivation can be a good thing??
The examples you give of Christians doing heinous acts are very few and mostly crazies (many times mixing other rituals into Christianity, that didn’t originate there.) These bad actors are separated from what 99.9% of Christians believe.
Meanwhile, I gave you an example of an atheist using his godless world view to justify murder and you tell me that “not all of the millions were killed for their religious beliefs.” Huh? Guess what, your teammate’s 100′s of thousands of religious killings beat your handful of examples from the believer team.. Also, while it is definitionally difficult for a non-believer to kill for his beliefs Stalin and Mao’s other 10′s of millions of victims were definitely killed to get them out of the way of those “men”‘s beliefs in the superiority of their godless system.. Some atheist belief systems suck, to a level that even the most destructive religion has yet to achieve.
Add in there the fact that nations with Christian founders have provided more tolerance, justice and well-being to their citizens than any other religion or non-belief has been able to provide, I think I’d be willing to be a fan, even if I weren’t absolutely convinced of Jesus Christ’s divinity.
So my only point, which I would love to see you be intellectually honest enough to concede, is that some religions do not, in fact, suck. Maybe it’s scary to you to not be superior to the believers….
“One of the great mistakes is to judge policies and programs by their intentions rather than their results.”
— Milton Friedman
The War on Poverty– forty-six years and counting!
Hey Jaded,
aesthete (Diary) Sunday, November 15th at 10:24PM EST (link)what’s your position on banning burkhas? I’m just curious (For myself, I’m against).
The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton
I have to say that because of the history behind it...
JadedByPolitics (Diary) Sunday, November 15th at 10:29PM EST (link)I am for banning it!
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Mmm, ok nt
aesthete (Diary) Sunday, November 15th at 10:50PM EST (link)The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton
Wow this burka issue is really hot button
jeannieology (Diary) Sunday, November 15th at 8:05PM EST (link)I’m kind of shocked that my laundry soap expedition incited such interest.
Well Jeannie, I had thought of using the example of the...
penguin2 (Diary) Sunday, November 15th at 8:10PM EST (link)Catholic Religious. There are still some orders who wear the traditional nun’s habit that often had the good sisters referred to as “penguins.”
Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. – Benjamin Franklin
When Good stands up to Evil, Evil blinks. – Vassar Bushmills
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I agree with your diary
TxTess (Diary) Monday, November 16th at 9:54AM EST (link)There was a “JAG” episode a few years back where Catherine Bell’s character had to wear what I believe is the “chador.” It is black, the full covering with the veil. The burqua looks like it covers a pill box hat with some weaving over the eyes and fall to the ankles normally seen in Afghan regions. The two terms might be interchangable. Both are very repressive. The episode was interesting because it showed how it felt to where such clothing from the wearers point of view.
I’ve always thought that men who practice Islam must be very weak-minded and lack imagination since one of the stated reasons for muslim women wearing such outfits is to prevent the men from lusting after them, but that is just my take.
I was stationed in Turkey in the early 90′s and agree with Uma regarding the friendliness of the natives. I believe it is called tarqique, but probably misspelled it. Lying to non-muslims is allowed if it helps Islam or some such nonsense.
Because I walk softly and carry a big Lipstick – Lori_Z at Red State
If it is a voluntary thing
Leopard1996 (Diary) Sunday, November 15th at 9:02PM EST (link)I don’t have a problem with it, because we in America are supposed to respect all cultures, religions, etc But when it is used as a hammer against things like the DMV needing to take a picture for a driver’s license, that is where I draw the line. Your culture is not allowed to piss on the running of this country.
“The accumluated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, “Save Us!”….and I’ll look down and whisper, “No”…The Watchmen
It's not about respecting religion
aesthete (Diary) Sunday, November 15th at 10:47PM EST (link)Religions, as everything else, must earn our respect. It’s about individual rights, and whether or not a person is free to wear something that doesn’t harm others, or not. Other than that quibble, I agree with you.
The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton
Very True, -nt
Leopard1996 (Diary) Tuesday, November 17th at 5:21PM EST (link)“The accumluated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, “Save Us!”….and I’ll look down and whisper, “No”…The Watchmen
Sez who? There are lots of cultures not worthy of respect.
Achance (Diary) Saturday, November 21st at 11:46AM EST (link)The “we in America are supposed to respect all cultures, religions, etc.” thinking is just mush-minded celebrate diversity cant. Actually, very few “cultures” on this planet have done anything to improve the lot of the people living in them and many cultures are the base evil that keeps the people in ignorance and poverty. The kleptocracy cultures of Africa are largely responsible for the short, nasty, and brutal lives most people have there. The Dark Ages culture of the Islamic world overlain by its own degenerate kleptocracy likewise keeps people there in ignorance and poverty and makes many of them a positive menace for the rest of the World. Nothing good is ultimately going to come from the anthill culture of China; my predictions is that our grandchildren will wind up fighting it out with them with sticks and stones in the rubble of a once-flourishing planet.
We have won the lottery of life by being born with an American passport and that is the culture we should celebrate. I for one haven’t lost anything worth going back for anywhere else in the World.
In Vino Veritas
the only part of any culture worth a damn is the military
lycurgus (Diary) Monday, November 16th at 3:58PM EST (link)these are our heroes, and they will rise again
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IbRQVqDxXc
bdover1 & quoteme, just for the record
Warrior (Diary) Tuesday, November 17th at 1:02PM EST (link)African nations which have embraced an abstinece model have shown lower rateds of AIDS than those which have tried the condome route.
“In the fight against AIDS, abstinence-based programs that focus on changing behaviors rather than handing out condoms simply work better, says an AIDS expert…Take the well-known case of Uganda, where the prevalence rate dropped from 15% in 1991 to a little over 5% in 2001. Behavior change was so thorough in Uganda that by the mid-1990s, 95% of adults in that country said they had only one partner or none at all. But it is not only Uganda…Where this kind of behavior change has not taken place, HIV incidence has remained high. This is the case in South Africa, which has been a vigorous promoter of condoms, but rather silent about the need for a more profound modification of behavior, specifically multiple partnerships.” Matthew Hanley — HIV/AIDS technical adviser at CRS for the last seven years and the author of the forthcoming book “Avoiding Risk, Affirming Life: Science, Love, and AIDS
—–
And the Indian practice of suttee was stopped by the British Indian Army almost two hundred years ago.
Here is the law’s actual wording by Lord William Cavendish Bentinck (1774-1839), the Governor General of India from 1828 to 1835…
Sati Regulation XVII, A. D. 1829 of the Bengal Code: 4 December 1829
I. A regulation for declaring the practice of suttee, or of burning or burying alive the widows of Hindus, illegal, and punishable by the criminal courts. Passed by the governor-general in council on the 4th December 1829, corresponding with the loth Aughun 1236 Bengal era; . . .
II. The practice of suttee, or of burning or burying alive the widows of Hindus, is hereby declared illegal, and punishable by the criminal courts.
Now, you two idiots can go peddle your lies someplace else…
“Racial criteria are irrational, irrelevant, [and] odious to our way of life.” — Thurgood Marshall for the NAACP Legal Defense Fund in the 1950 Supreme Court case of McLaurin v. Oklahoma
just because something is illegal
quoteme Tuesday, November 17th at 1:25PM EST (link)doesn’t mean it isn’t practiced, you moron! Look at our jails if you don’t believe me. And read the news stories on current practices.
Look jackass,
Warrior (Diary) Saturday, November 21st at 10:41AM EST (link)You’re original point was to list licit religious practices which caused harm. Just because it’s practiced doesn’t mean it’s endorsed by the religion. Anybody can do ANYTHING in the name of a particular religion — so what?
Why don’t you pay attention or go home, idiot?
“Racial criteria are irrational, irrelevant, [and] odious to our way of life.” — Thurgood Marshall for the NAACP Legal Defense Fund in the 1950 Supreme Court case of McLaurin v. Oklahoma
Warrior, hang onto your blood pressure.
penguin2 (Diary) Saturday, November 21st at 10:53AM EST (link)These two like to come and go, I suspect they’ll be back and we’ll work on them next time. Really aggravates me too, their hit and run tactics.
Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. – Benjamin Franklin
When Good stands up to Evil, Evil blinks. – Vassar Bushmills
Conservative Education: Suggested Reading List
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Thanks for the heads up Pen
Warrior (Diary) Saturday, November 21st at 11:12AM EST (link)Immediately after writing the origianl comment, I had to go out of town on a business trip. I didn’t see the reply until this AM. (I check my e-mail during business travel, but usually not the RS comment section. Maybe I should start.)
Anyway, I appreciate the update, my BP was indeed rising. It’s the typical leftist maneuver — go find the worst example out there and present it as the norm.
And most people don’t understand about the Christian Crusades, just in case one of these cretins goes there. Islam had converted at the point of the sword or killed every non-Muslim from the Bahgdad to southern Europe. They were harrassing, robbing and killing Christian pilgrims to the Holy Land at the time. The Crusades were originallly designed to allow Christians from Europe safe passage to visit Jerusalem and return home.
Now, they became something else later, as things like that do, but in no way were they any kind of religious “jihad” or Holy war against Islam. It’s muslim fanatics who do that. IMHO, once a “religion” starts killing people who don’t convert, it has lost all claim to being a bona fide “religion.” We are the most religiously tolerant country in the world, but we draw the line a “honor killings” “jihad” and all the rest of that 5th century hogwash…
“Racial criteria are irrational, irrelevant, [and] odious to our way of life.” — Thurgood Marshall for the NAACP Legal Defense Fund in the 1950 Supreme Court case of McLaurin v. Oklahoma