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Who Should Have the Final Say About Your Medical Care: Your Doctor, or Government Bureaucrats?

Three States go to Federal Court for Right to Overrule Doctors' Medical Decisions

Update by Jeff: Perhaps this comment will shine a bit more light on the import of this issue.

WHO SHOULD HAVE CONTROL over your medical care: your family doctor, or a bureaucrat you’ve never met whose sole job is to look out for the government’s financial bottom-line?

That question, which is the subject of today’s AOL Hot Seat poll, is being debated in court right now, as three states are currently seeking a ruling from a federal judge that the final say in an individual’s medical treatment lies with the government, not with that patient’s doctor.

In March, Georgia, Florida, and Alabama joined in an appeal of a 2008 U.S. District Court ruling that a patient’s physician was better positioned – and better qualified – to make decisions about that patient’s medical treatment than state bureaucrats.

The case centers on Callie Moore, a disabled teenage girl living in Georgia. A stroke Callie suffered in utero left her suffering from multiple conditions, including cerebral palsy and mental retardation. For the last decade, she has received around-the-clock in-home nursing care for her medical conditions.

IN 2007, THOUGH, the state of Georgia cut coverage of Callie’s in-home care by 15%, from 94 hours a week to 84 over the objections of her attending physician, who was intimately familiar with her case and her needs. State officials (who were not medical professionals) cited disagreement with the attending physician about just how much care Callie needed as the primary reason for this reduction in care.

Callie’s mother filed suit in 2007, arguing that the state had no right to contradict the orders of her personal physician and limit her treatment. However, because Callie receives her medical treatment under Medicaid, the joint federal-state administered health coverage program for low-income individuals and families, Georgia officials argued that Callie’s care was subject to rationing, as state bureaucrats’ need to ensure Medicaid resources were allocated “fairly” superseded her doctor’s care prescription or her personal medical needs.

On June 4, 2008, U.S. District Judge Thomas Thrash ruled that Callie’s doctor, not state bureaucrats, had the right to prescribe just what medical treatment and care his patient required. Georgia was ordered to raise Callie’s skilled home nursing care back up to 94 hours a week, as prescribed by her doctor.

Rhonda Meadows, commissioner of Georgia’s Department of Community Health, immediately appealed the ruling to the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals on behalf of the Peach State. Her argument was that state officials, not doctors, should have final say in what treatments and care patients within their purview require. Florida and Alabama, which fall under the 11th Circuit’s jurisdiction and will have to abide by its ruling, filed an amicus brief with the Atlanta-based court.

THIS CASE HAS THRUST into the spotlight debate about an issue that has long been confined to dark, smoky rooms in state capitals and Washington, DC, and to the back pages of legislation Members of Congress aren’t bothering – or being allowed – to read before their passage.

From state governments to the federal legislators and bureaucrats who had a hand in writing and passing President Barack Obama’s 2009 “stimulus” bill, more and more officials are beginning to make the public argument that it is not a trained doctor with years of experience and personal knowledge of a patient’s medical history and needs who should have final say when it comes to patient diagnoses and prescriptions, but some nameless, faceless bureaucrat inhabiting a cubicle in some nondescript government building, with nothing but an agency-developed cost-effectiveness spreadsheet to guide them in determining what is and is not medically appropriate or necessary for every patient seen within their jurisdiction.

The case currently being decided in Atlanta, Moore v. Medows, is evidence of this. In oral argument before a panel of the 11th Circuit on March 24, attorney Robert Highsmith contended that, while bureaucrats “will consider doctors’ determinations,” the “final arbiter” of medical decisions is “the state.”

The thrust of the states’ argument is summed up in a brief written by the attorneys representing the state of Florida in the case. “Left to their own devices,” they write, doctors “advocate for their patients” – something the apparently resented by state governments for its interference in the execution of their cost-effectiveness analyses.

IT IS DIFFICULT TO OVERSTATE the impact a decision in the states’ favor would have in this case. Medical professionals and health care advocates rightly fear doctors’ evaluations, diagnoses, and prescriptions would sink to the status of mere suggestions pending review and approval or disapproval by state bureaucrats.

Imagine, if you will, every decision made about your personal motor vehicle, from the gas you put in it to the recommendations the mechanic makes for fixing your worn-out brakes or broken transmission, was subject to final review by a state bureaucrat with no experience in the automotive industry. Now extrapolate that scenario to your health care. Are you concerned yet?

Even if the judges of the 11th Circuit disagree with the appellants’ argument, the fact that three states are currently in federal court seeking official validation of their “right” to overrule physicians and arbitrarily ration medical care is frightening enough.

When government is given free rein to overrule a medical professional’s judgment of care based on their analysis of cost, physicians and their patients no longer have a role in making decisions about those patients’ care.

The battle is not only being fought at the state level but at the federal, as well, where funding and authorization for “comparative effectiveness research” was included in the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act (or “stimulus” bill). That benign-sounding term refers, quite simply, to the drawing up of those comparative-effectiveness spreadsheets bureaucrats will use to approve or overrule physician diagnoses and prescriptions once the federal government’s power to do so has been affirmed, be it by legislative action or judicial fiat.

Given the track record of the faceless bureaucrats who make the majority of the government’s day to day judgments, the idea that they, rather than the doctor you know and trust, could be responsible for your medical decisions should be a very frightening prospect indeed.

COMMENTS

  • kdoc

    In the case of the murder of unborn infants, the liberals insist that the government must not interfere in the doctor-patient relationship. But in EVERY OTHER MEDICAL PROCEDURE, those same liberals are now insisting that the government has a right to overrule that doctor-patient relationship.

    • $peciallist

      under State controlled healthcare…

      They will delay your treatment for months…they will cancel your treatments due to cost efficiency….

      They will say you’re to young for this..

      They say you’re too old for that…

      But they will NEVER cancel Abortions….we must FIGHT!!

  • wayneinnh

    Life in the Obamanation is being devalued day by day. We are now paying for abortions around the world due to the rescinding of the Mexico City policy. We are allowing human life to be destroyed for the purpose of experimentation with stem cells because of the possibility that it may help someone already living.

    The similarities with what is going on with the the bailout funds are striking. If the government is giving the money, they will have the final say. Now the same geniuses that gave us Fannie, Freddie, social security, and the welfare state are running AIG, GM, and are trying to run health care. The next time you are standing in line at the DMV to register your car, remember this is the same system that may be running your health care some day.

    The people of faith reading this should be praying for our nation and president. If God doesn’t pass severe judgment on this nation, then he made a mistake with Sodom and Gomorrah and owes them an apology. But we know that can’t be the case.

  • Joe_Cor

    of having the state pay for Callie’s home care in the first place. Once you make a person that dependent on the state, that person’s liberty and wll being becomes dependent on the whims and wills of the state. A very frightening scenario.

    I don’t know if a private insurance company might not try the same gambit in order to save costs, however. Does anyone have any thoughts on that? Rationing, however, wouldn’t be a factor in the case of private insurance.

    • http://jeffemanuel.net Jeff Emanuel

      ….the debate currently going on around the country is whether (Democrats) or not (Republicans) we should all be moved into a bureaucrat-run Medicaid/Medicare-type health care program.

      On your second point, yes, private insurers are capable of the same thing, though they wouldn’t justify it by citing the need to “fairly distribute resources.” This is part of why less dependence on insurance of any kind (outside catastrophic incidents) and more emphasis on published pricing and fee-for-service health care is needed in our system.

  • judgew7

    The state isn’t rationing healthcare, it’s simply determining what it will pay for – which it should be able to. A state shouldn’t be liable for the whimsy of a doctor or family member. It is not the responsiblity of the state to provide perfect or compelete health care.

    it’s not the responsiblity of the state to provide health care at all. This article reads more like it’s from bluestate than redstate….

    • Bartlett

      Fine, as long as we can remove the distortion placed into the marketplace by government intervention in health care to begin with.

      Health care (specifically including skilled nursing care) costs far more than it should, in large part because it is directed, reimbursed, regulated, and directly controlled by the government. You can’t practice medicine without the permission of the state. You can’t prescribe medications without the permission of the state AND the federal government. Those permissions aren’t permanent or cheap – you have to be periodically investigated and to pay moderately large sums of money to continue to have the ability to practice. (And I know of what I speak – I’m a practicing physician.)

      Furthermore, you have to pay HUGE sums of money in order to practice in reality, because the government has established a high-stakes lottery in the form of a malpractice insurance system, and you WILL be sued and you WILL pay thousands (or hundreds of thousands) of dollars a year to an insurer to protect you from the government (in the form of the civil courts).

      If you are a doctor, the government tells you what services you must provide. It tells you how you must bill for them, and how much you may charge at a minimum. Medicare is the single largest payor for health care for adults, and the price ratchet imposed by law makes it impossible to provide services at a discount.

      Not to mention that the fee and insurance floor means that many doctors (including most specialists) are “rich” by the government’s standards, which means that they are subject to special taxation.

      It’s the “you broke it, so it’s yours” argument about payment for medical care – if the government wants so desperately to control and punish the practice of medicine, it had better be prepared for the counterpunch. If you want to suddenly change all that, I’d recommend starting somewhere other than paying for the relatively modest cost of a disabled child.

      • Next93

        All of your points are excellent (particularly how the government has ensured that there’s no price pressure on services), but that’s really a different issue; the point that judgew7 makes is simply the fact that *any* insurer is going to have to place a limit on payments, and these extreme cases are where that’s going to be the most effective and seem the most heartless.

        This article doesn’t really make a case that the state has told the physician what he can and can’t prescribe, but rather what the state will pay for. It would seem to me that the solution here is to allow the health care provider to strike a deal with the consumer for direct-billing the “gap” coverage, hopefully at a reduced rate.

        The problem seems to be that, while private insurers can (and do) impose limits based on the conditions stated in the policy, the states appearently want the right to make decisions in an arbitrary manner, based on the subjective opinion of the case worker as to what consitutes “fair” distribution of health care. I can just imagine the howls of media indignation if a private insurance company tried to do that; just this morning GMA ran a blatantly biased piece on how AIG denies up to 45% of claims (which is pretty much what an insurance company’s supposed to do).

        By the way, I’ve heard anecdotes of more than one instance in which insurers attempt to control what physicians prescribe. As I understand it both Medicare and private insurers do this by threatening to drop physicians from thier network if thier aggregate therapy statistics exceed arbitrary limits set by the insurer. That’s the practice that I think should be getting some serious attention, not limiting payments in these big-ticket cases.

        • http://jeffemanuel.net Jeff Emanuel

          This article doesn?t really make a case that the state has told the physician what he can and can?t prescribe, but rather what the state will pay for. It would seem to me that the solution here is to allow the health care provider to strike a deal with the consumer for direct-billing the ?gap? coverage, hopefully at a reduced rate.

          That’s true, and Callie’s family already pays for the remainder of her 24/7/365 in-home care.

          The problem here is the encroachment of government into doctor-patient decisions — and that problem grows as we slide closer to a 100%-government-overseen health care system.

          Tom Daschle, who President Obama tapped to be both HHS secretary and health care czar (and to whom he is presumably still listening), has spoken openly for years about his desire to remake our health care system in the image of Britain’s. There, the National Institute for Clinical Effectiveness (NICE) draws up these cost-effectiveness spreadsheets that say what is and isn’t covered, regardless of physician’s official medical opinion — and patients who go above and beyond that by paying out of pocket automatically and legally forfeit the state-managed health care benefits their taxes pay for and their fellow Britons are still receiving

          Government is a jealous mistress. What simply appears to be an issue of who pays for a few extra hours of care today is well on its way to turning into a get-half-coverage-or-none-at-all situation here like it is in Britain.

          The answer is to get government as far away from our health care and medical decisions as possible. We need to be making those decisions on our own, with our physicians.

    • http://jeffemanuel.net Jeff Emanuel

      (1) No health care safety net? Fine; set up your own island nation where you can live alone and avoid any semblance of community. Though I don’t have to defend my conservative bona fides to you, I’m pretty firmly set on the right on this issue — and I have zero qualms about having social safety nets. They’re not done anywhere near right by government, but they do need to be there.

      (2) Determining what it will pay for based on the desire to “spread resources around fairly” = rationing. Or are we in an alternate-word-meaning universe this morning?

      (3) “A state shouldn?t be liable for the whimsy of a doctor or family member.” So why do we even have doctors (who, you know, go through about 8 years of school and years of residency after that to gain medical expertise) if we’re so distrustful of their official medical opinions that we refer to them as “whimsy” [sic] and go to bureaucrats for final approval or disapproval?

      You can be as laissez-faire as you want on this issue, but as long as you’re living in reality, you’re going to be wrong (and sound pretty ridiculous).

      • Jim

        “I?m pretty firmly set on the right on this issue ? and I have zero qualms about having social safety nets.”

        Are you referring to “state run” social safety nets? Or simply institutions, preferably voluntary (churches, community groups, charities, etc), that help the poor and needy in our society?

        “You can be as laissez-faire as you want on this issue, but as long as you?re living in reality, you?re going to be wrong (and sound pretty ridiculous).”

        So to hold up the ideal and work toward that is fruitless? 100% state-run “universal health care” is the goal of most liberals these days. Do they chastise those in their ranks who want such a radical and far-fetched idea? Absolutely not! So why chastise someone on our side who is advocating for the free market (albeit in incomplete terms)? If the federal government is going to try to intrude into the healthcare industry, my main question for its advocates (to any degree, from Medicare part D to universal healthcare) is under what article and section of the U.S. Constitution does the Congress have authority to enact any laws pertaining to healthcare? If we concede that basic and fundamental point, then everything afterwards is empty rhetoric argued on shallow, utilitarian ground.

      • judgew7

        I’ll ignore the pretentiousness of the response, but find them interesting. You’re the one who thinks gov’t ought to be responsible for whatever the family and doctor want for whatever patient – that’s simply NOT a conservative position. That is a fundamental underlying tenant of socialism (though you may want it in smaller degrees – though you can’t define them) and is based on the ‘from each according to their ability to those according to their need.” You ignore the fact that the gov’t has to forceably take from others to do so…..

        Social security was started as a ‘safety net’ and it’s a net that now entangles the entire nation, retarding production and further limiting opportunities. It simply is NOT my neighbor’s RESPONSIBILITY to take care of me. They may want to, but I should have no right to FORCE them. I would think for a person with the proper bona fides that would be obvious.

        You also object to my phrase ‘whimsy of the doctors’ – as if 8 years of school makes a man perfect in all ways. I forgot, they take their God 101 class. Actually, having worked in surgery for 6 years and attended med school for one year – give me some insight, having actually done it. Physicians continually order tests, or give scripts necessarily – they make bad judgements, are lazy or want to please the family members. There’s not a profession out there that doesn’t have problems and medicine is no different. Again, it’s not the communities responsibility to make doctors millionaires. If you’ll do some basic study on the issue, doctors were middle class professionals until the 60′s when Medicare/Medicaid started. That’s when they realized they could make tons of money by eliminating house calls and treating patients like an assembly line. The care was no longer primary, it was the profit – warped by gov’t intervention. Gov’t has done much to screw up the delivery and accessibility of medicine, their continued further involvement won’t cure the situation. You’ll also have to point out wherever it is I argue for letting bureaucrats give ‘approval or disapproval’ for any treatment. I simply point out gov’t has limits on what it can spend – never that it should have final say in the treatment. Of course, if you can’t argue the facts, make up your own straw men.

        You can ignore the facts all you want, just don’t be naive enough to think others will see that as ‘reality.’

        • judgew7

          In the above, I should have typed:

          Physicians continually order tests, or give scripts unnecessarily – they make bad judgments, are lazy or want to please the family members.

    • williemcbride

      I can see any doctor that I want, but my insurance company will only cover the visit if the doctor is in their network.

      I can order any drug I want, but my insurance company will only cover the costs of the drug as long as it is in their formulary.

      I can have any medical procedure I want, but my insurance company will only cover the cost if they have approved the procedure.

      My son needed to have a crown to take the space for a missing adult tooth. My insurance company did not cover the procedure since they determined that the condition was congenital. We decided to go ahead with the procedure, for which I am still paying it off. But that was the financial decision that I made.

      Decisions about treatment need to factor in the cost vs. the benefit of the treatment,

      • janis

        instead of just a crown? And what if you couldn’t pay for that crucial health care for him? Would you then still advocate this position?

        I’m all for people being responsible for their own care, but am also for a safety net for those who can’t–not won’t, CAN’T. For our children and the elderly, this is necessary.

        • Kyle-MI

          What if that life-extending care only had a 1/200 change of success? If it is your son or daughter, you might be willing to pay for that slim chance, but should everyone else? It is not just about money. The cost for paying for that procedure could have been used on vaccines (for example) that would have saved many, many more lives. It comes down to a decision to sacrifice other peoples’ children for a slim chance for your own.

          I would love to be in the position where we could afford to try every possible treatment for every person, but I don’t think we can afford it as a country.

          • janis

            denying health care procedures to those who genuinely need them and can’t afford them, it would be a huge money saving measure to get rid of everyone who is receiving gov. benefits fraudulently. Specifically, those who are on SSI disability and automatically qualify for Medicare as well as those who manage to qualify for foodstamps. Here in TN, if you qualify for foodstamps, you also qualify to receive TennCare. People are arrested here daily for using TennCare fraudulently, the majority of them being drug abusers and/or those who obtain pain killers in order to sell them.

            Get rid of the waste first, and then address the health care issues.

          • Achance

            for most plans. I don’t know how old this “Callie” is, but I’ve been around the profoundly disabled for a period in my life – worked in a couple of mental health facilities when I was in school. They sometimes live a long time with modern medicine and that medicine is extraordinarily expensive. Almost no private party can afford the medical expenses so such cases almost always go to Medicare/Medicaid.

            With private plans, the equivalent is end-of-life for the terminally ill or for the aged. You hear the obits all the time about how some celebrity died of cancer at age 87 or so. Well, did he die of cancer of did he die of being 87? Doctors for both good and bad reasons will never tell a family that they ought to just cease treatment and make the patient as comfortable as possible until the end. They’ll always do what the family wants and the unscrupulous ones, and there are some, will do the old “he deserves a chance” thing, at least until the HI runs out.

            I makes for some very tough more and economic decisions for plan administrators and those Godawful ugly cost-benefit analyses become a real issue when you’re looking at possibly millions of dollars of treatment costs for someone who is not going to recover to live anything like a normal life no matter what you do or for someone who under any circumstance has only a few years to live; none of us live forever no matter how “healthy” our lifestyle.

          • mom2oneson

            has made a huge impact on the cost of this. Grandma can’t move in with the family to be changed every couple of hours and spoon fed because mom is working. The costs of nursing home care is very high. Most of what they need is very basic nursing care, diapers changed, being turned, bathed/dressed and being fed.

          • Achance

            these days, particularly women. By the time Grandma needs that sort of care, her daughter may be elderly and infirm as well. Then it falls to grandchildren who in today’s world are likely to be thousands of miles away.

          • janis

            trumpeting that scientists now say that it’s possible for people to live to 120 years old, the same question always comes out of my mouth:

            Who’s going to pay for it?

            Followed closely by the next question:

            Who would WANT to live to 120 years old?

          • Next93

            Dogbert, in his financial advisor perona, is talking to a client:

            Frame 1:
            “With modern medical adcances, you can expect to live to be 200.

            Frame 2:
            “And with responsible financial management, you’ll only have to live the last 120 years of that in squalor.”

            Frame 3:
            “My advice to you is diversification…
            And bacon.”

          • mom2oneson

            How do we ration that? Those are frequent very high dollar pediatric cases that medicaid covers.

        • judgew7

          with a safety net, is that no one can define it.

          Unfortunately, we all face death and difficult situations. The communities, the churches, other family members and even the charitable nature of docs/hosptials should be the providers for the best they can give – and that’s it.

          People should not be coerced, through oppressive taxes, to provide care for others via a wasteful and inefficient gov’t bureaucracy. It’ is not gov’ts responsiblity to extend anyones life, only to defend their liberties and the right to pursue their own happiness.

  • dmartin

    ME.

    An enthusiastic application of Ocams razor is in order here. Health care should be a pay as you go system with no insurance other than for catastrophic coverage. Health care would be available, affordable, and of a higher quality.

    • dmartin

      Just to clarify, I only want to have the final say about my health care, I want you to have the final say about yours

    • http://jeffemanuel.net Jeff Emanuel

      And the question should probably read, “Who should have the final say on official medical opinions, diagnoses, and treatments related to your health care, which you then, as the patient, decide your actions based on,” but it’s a little clunky and there isn’t a lot of room at the top of the page there ;-)

  • cindermutha

    Think VA hospitals and DMV’s.

    And the r word- rationing – should scare everyone. I can see it now. You are denied healthcare because you used up more than your fair share… time to go off in the corner to die.

    • Jeff Weimer

      And an example of how socialized medicine could work:

      http://www.slate.com/id/2114554/

      But here’s something more recent, from Jason Leopold at pubrecord.org:

      http://www.pubrecord.org/nationworld/717-obamas-va-budget-proposal-aims-to-eliminate-benefits-claims-backlog.html

      Wow, what a difference! I guess the VA is good fodder for the left going BOTH WAYS depending on the monster you want to slay. Good governance? See Slate. Bad President? See Leopold.

      Oh, and really like this paragraph from Leopold:

      His proposal for the agency would fund a radical overhaul of VA?s technological infrastructure and aims to eliminate an average six-month wait to have disability claims processed. As of September 2008, 330,000 Iraq and Afghanistan war veterans have filed disability claims to the VA, according to the agency. Yet, 54,000 are still waiting for the VA to confirm their claims were received. The average wait for a disability claim is more than six months.

      This is exactly the ?regulatory/red tape/insurance BS that has made our hospital emergency waiting rooms and corridors cautionary tales for the rest of the industrialized world? the left rails against, and it?s the government providing the care. Is this the quality of care and responsiveness we can expect from universal healthcare, I don?t want it. I mean, if there are this many problems with government-provided care in a small cross section of Americans, how exactly is it going to be better when everyone is on it?

      Of course, you may remember Leopold from his smackdown by the Columbia Journalism Review:

      http://www.cjr.org/politics/jason_leopold_caught_sourceles.php.

    • KevinFinity

      And Police departments? They do a pretty decent job of running an army. (as far as I can tell.)

      Perhaps the VA hospitals and the DMV suffer becuase they are underfunded.

      (just being a devil’s advocate… this is my first post on RedState)

      • itrytobenice

        Health care for the people of the US…not so much.

  • http://www.publiusforum.com Warner Todd Huston

    I want the same government that pay $700 for a toilet seat to bill me for my healthcare!

  • RJD

    Since I don’t fully know Callie’s or her family’s circumstances, my only comment on this has to be about medicare. It’s an all or nothing venture. You can’t drop medicaid without losing social security and perhaps other benefits. My parents have reached that age where they were automatically enrolled in it. They also pay for secondary insurance (I admit, I don’t know the ins and outs specifically). They would much prefer private insurance, but don’t want to surrender the little social security they receive.

    As for who is paying? Isn’t Callie’s family paying? It is their taxes, after all (and ours). I’m fine with 94 hours of care for Callie, if that is what her doctor recommends.

    • http://jeffemanuel.net Jeff Emanuel
    • Jeff Weimer

      And that sentiment is what will cause socialized medicine to fail in the ways we have seen in other countries.

      Look at it like this – replace your insurance premiums with your taxes. It’s really that simple. The government will become the insurance company. Except it replaces the profit motive with political motive to hold down costs. the profit motive at least promotes efficiency up and down the process. The political motive promotes politicians looking good no and then.

      • Aaron Gardner

        if the Govt took over. the bureaucracy that would need to be built to provide any single payer govt system would end up destroying any possible cost savings that are expected.

        Although the HMO’s are also bogged down in bureaucratic nonsense at least we still have limited choice as to which one we will use. With the single payer system we lose that choice and in the process weaken our Free Market stance.

        • Jeff Weimer
      • KevinFinity

        The insurance companies can deny anyone for any reason. I’ll use myself as an example: even though I am in good health, I was denied insurance because I took two prescription drugs last year. No appeal, no explanation, just a flat denial.

        If the answer from the right is “tough luck”, and the answer from the left is “The government will help” then I am much more receptive to the left.

        • Brian Hibbert

          won’t deny you any medical care?

          Take a look at how such programs are run in other countries. Either the specific drug/procedure/equipment is not at all available or is severely rationed.

          In the case of YOUR example, you claim to have been denied coverage from one company because of having taken 2 prescriptions the previous year. While I doubt your story, even if it were true, you still have the opportunity to get insurance from the thousands of other companies, to pay for your own medical care, or to receive government aid for any medical care if you can’t afford your own. In the case of government run health care, you have no other options when a bureaucrat denies your requested health care.

          • KevinFinity

            …I do not know that I was denied coverage because I had two prescriptions. That is what my broker *assumed* was the reason. Blue Cross simply said “no”. I am currently applying to other companies. Right now I am pretty stressed about it.

            My problem with our privatized system is that we rely on insurance companies to decide who gets coverage and who does not.

            Insurance companies are naturally motivated by profit, so it makes sense that they would deny anyone that looks like they might be at risk. That leaves a lot of people unable to get anything but emergency care.

            I would definitely take nationalized health care over no health care at all.

          • Brian Hibbert

            is high enough to cover the risk. And as I said, if one company denies you, others will line up to take your business.

            And you always have the choice to pay for your doctor visits yourself. If as you stated you are generally healthy, it would probably be cheaper to pay your own doctor visits anyway.

            Your choice isn’t nationalize or nothing. That’s a falsehood. You will always be able to get treatment in this country.

          • Brian Hibbert

            your preference when coupled with the power of the US Government becomes force to those of us who don’t want to have nationalized health care.

            Good little dictator aren’t you?

          • KevinFinity

            Perhaps my problem is that I am not wealthy enough to pay extremely high premiums or doctor visits and routine drugs for my family and myself. If one of my kids needed emergency surgery for some reason, I could lose my house. It still sounds like the answer is “tough luck”.

            >>”your preference when coupled with the power of the US Government becomes force to those of us who don?t want to have nationalized health care.”

            Sorry I dont get this …why wouldnt you be able to buy your own insurance and opt out of the nationalized health care system? You can choose to use FedEx instead of the post office, or go to a private university rather than a State college.

          • Brian Hibbert

            There are 2 problems with your “opt out” suggestion.

            1. The government will use force to take what money I have to pay for YOUR government run health care. This will leave me with not enough money to pay for my own health care.

            2. Many of the government run (AKA single payer) health care programs do not allow a private care to coexist with the government run system. When they say Single Payer they mean in. The Canadian system which is most often used as the model for proposals in the US, is structured this way. If you want private care you have to leave the country to get it.

            Item 2 leads back into the other problem with a government run health care. One of the prime measures Canada uses to measure success of it’s system is the number of people who die while on waiting lists to receive care. They ration services because the system even with a 50% tax rate (non-progressive) the Canadians can’t provide the level of services we have here. Canadians currently can come across the border to get treatment they REALLY need (and often do). That avenue would be shut off from them if WE shifted to their model of health care.

            In contrast, our system of health care, though expensive, is generally able to provide services on demand. A couple of years ago (when I researched it) there were more MRI machines and CT scanners in Peoria, IL than there were in entire provinces of Canada. And Peoria isn’t exactly a major metropolitan area. Medicine is practiced differently there. A Canadian doctor won’t even consider asking for an MRI when he suspects tendon damage because he knows the waiting list is too long. Instead he’ll use older, less accurate techniques. The medicines the doctor prescribes aren’t the most current because they aren’t as available. In essence, the Canadian system is a dumbed down version of ours.

            As for you not being able to afford the level of health care you want…. someone has to pay for it. It isn’t free. Insurance (when done properly) is priced for individuals based on the expected payouts for the group of individuals insured. If you are in a low risk group, your premiums will be small. If you are high risk, you will be placed in a high risk group and the premium will reflect the expected costs. If you choose not to pay for health insurance (I still don’t believe your “I’m healthy but can’t get insurance” story), you take on the risk that you will be directly financially responsible if you or your children get sick and use medical services. Yes this could bankrupt you, but in many states, bankruptcy doesn’t include losing your house.

          • KevinFinity

            1. True…but isn’t that the argument against taxes in general? You could just as easily say “The Government should not force ME to pay for YOUR road repairs and YOUR military defense.”?

            2. I don’t know if the Canadian system is a straw-man or not but I still don’t understand why a private doctor couldn’t opt out of OUR public system. If patients are willing to pay extra for top talent, why couldn’t a doctor charge more? Its just like FedEx vs. USPS: If I want to pay more for better service I can still do it.

            As far as Canadian MRI’s go … this is from wikipedia so take it FWIW:

            “…MRI scanners are used more intensively in Canada than either the U.S. or Great Britain. This disparity in the availability of technology, some believe, results in longer wait times…. according to more recent official statistics (2007), all emergency patients receive MRIs within 24 hours, those classified as urgent receive them in under 3 weeks and the maximum elective wait time is 19 weeks in Regina and 26 weeks in Saskatoon, the province’s two largest metropolitan areas.”

            I dont know if that proves anything or not. But there you go. I have heard that although Canadians do come over here from time to time for elective care, it really is not widespread.

            Even if we do have better doctors, I don’t see how we can draw the conclusion that we have higher quality of care because of our private system. Maybe we just have superior medical schools that produce better doctors. Just as our superior engineering schools produce better rocket scientists, and our superior business schools produce better CEOs. So now we have a better space program, more profitable corporations, and higher quality of health care than other countries.

            As you can see I am really struggling with this. There are what 45 million people who are uninsured? So that’s around 15% of all Americans. If 15% of our country’s roads and highways were unusable, wouldn’t we have to do something about it?

          • itrytobenice

            1. How can you conflate an individual’s health care against public roads or military? The roads are clearly a public good and available equally to all the public. As is the military. Your health care, on the other hand does not help me or my family. It actually helps no one but the one who gets it.

            2. ??MRI scanners are used more intensively in Canada than either the U.S. or Great Britain. This disparity in the availability of technology, some believe, results in longer wait times?. according to more recent official statistics (2007), all emergency patients receive MRIs within 24 hours, those classified as urgent receive them in under 3 weeks and the maximum elective wait time is 19 weeks in Regina and 26 weeks in Saskatoon, the province?s two largest metropolitan areas.?

            This doesn’t even make sense. If they have more, how can the ‘disparity in the availability of technology’ result in longer wait times for them? If they have more, their technology is superior to ours and therefore they would have less wait time.

            And a living (formerly) example is Natasha Richardson. She didn’t get an MRI ordered at her first hospital, even though she had all the classic symptoms of brain damage. And they didn’t even have the capacity to life flight her to a capable facility. They had to take the two hour drive. In every little hick town here in MO, we would get better care than that, but her gov’t run program was unable to provide her with life giving care, even though a very simple procedure would have saved her life.

            3. The 45 million figure is demogogued. It includes illegal immigrants, people in transition between occupations or insurances, people eligible for Medicare or Medicaid who have not signed up and the self insured (for example I have three wealthy friends who have all chosen not to purchase insurance as they are capable of easily paying for their own care and they think they will beat the odds.)

            Here is a link to an article that explains it (if I can pull the link off)

            http://www.businessandmedia.org/printer/2007/20070718153509.aspx

          • itrytobenice

            And I forgot to finish:

            Why should the vast majority of Americans, who are perfectly satisfied with our health care, have to have our system turned upside down and collectivized by Uncle Sam because a small minority either doesn’t want to, or can’t purchase similar health care.

            At some point, this is going to fall into the “Life Isn’t Fair” category. It’s either going to be unfair to 90% of us or 10% of us. And that 10% may not even get any better care than they get now. Right now, if a typical uninsured broke person gets hurt or sick, they go to the hospital and get fixed. Wait until the gov’t fixes that. I think the cure will be worse than the disease.

    • RJD

      Now I need some help making an argument against socialized healthcare as it relates to government bureaucracy, inefficiency and cost.
      Basically, I have a friend who has made an argument that government-run healthcare would be as efficient as the US Postal Service. In his mind, it’s better for a government bureaucrat to make health decisions than a capitalist, bureaucratic insurance agency.

      Any suggestions?

      • Aaron Gardner

        We have seen the cost of mail delivery grow while the service has stayed the same. Currently the USPS is running a debt and they are laying off people left and right. Also all members of the USPS are unionized…I don’t think I would want a union doctor performing surgery on me.

        • RJD

          I found a few articles about the USPS’ situation. Just trying to find enough to form an argument.

  • Skanderbeg

    Well, this isn’t one of “my” RS portfolio issues (but I can find a way to link it to one), but since I reside relatively close to the Canadian border I’m in a position to notice a few things.

    I’m not closely following the stuff being kicked around the pitch in Washington on this, so I don’t know where the proposals are sitting – if there is supposed to be a “public” system available but nothing done to prevent the existence of “private” systems – or if all “private” health care will be banned.

    Most of the places that have implemented “national health services” allow private systems to operate.

    A few though have outright banned (as a criminal offense) any “delivery of health care services” outside of the “public” system.

    Canada is one of the latter.

    One of the side-effects has been the use of the U.S. side of the border as the “private” system for Canada. If you don’t believe me, just pay a visit to the big medical center in Burlington (VT) and take a stroll around the parking garage and note the fraction of parked vehicles with Quebec plates. (Someone who actually did this once said that he estimated that about 1/3 did.)

    So my guess is that if our health care wisepersons go to a Canadian-style system, anyone who can afford it will outsource their health care to other jurisdictions. There’s already a great deal of “medical tourism” due to the cost inflation – so the base of that sort of thing is already in place….

  • bellpe

    State bureaucrats want to save money on state-subsidized care by restricting the “Dispense As Written” rule.
    This is all being done under the guise of budget-cutting to help bridge a massive state deficit. Only problem? Generics make a lot of people sick; should a bureaucrat really have control over what your doctor prescribes to you for effective treatment?

  • larryp

    Will this Healthcare Govenment be set up with regional commission. Then if you need to re-locate for work or to take care of a loved-one, youhave to aply to that board.If there is no room in there area for a new medical “risk”, then you are turned down and Mom has to get no care or the job is not taken.
    We are locked into place.

  • Raven

    Why can’t I have the final say in my medical care?
    My doctor is supposed to get my permission to perform any treatment. I’d like to keep it that way.

    • http://jeffemanuel.net Jeff Emanuel
      • Raven

        I was posting to this thread in one of the few quiet moments I had yesterday when I wasn’t tallying new numbers for Tea Party turnout. (which I should be doing now, but won’t be doing at all today), so I didn’t have time to read through all the comments in addition to the OP.

  • Jeff Weimer

    But to be a bit of a devil’s advocate.

    The insurance companies and HMOs do this type of thing (limiting care to save money) all the time,. It’s one very powerful argument the left has versus the current system – and they are right. They, of course, use it to lead their argument towards full government control, since the government is responsive to the electorate, right? That’s their line, and it is persuasive to the average person/voter. We can’t deny that. They are drawing a direct line from the problem to their solution, even though they and we know it’s not that simple. We have to come up with at least an equally persuasive argument, and equally simply presented.

    • Kyle-MI

      Sure, insurance and HMO’s do some of this, but do you think the government can do better? More likely they will be worse. The mental picture we need to paid with voters is the IRS or DMV as your doctor. Everyone knows who government works. Why do you think they will be any better at health care?

      • Jeff Weimer

        nothing good can come of it
        But we have to push a better paradigm, else they win, and we all lose.

        They want to destroy the current system and replace it with their idea.

        If we were to destroy the current system, what would we replace it with?

        Is there a compromise?

        • Next93

          He wanted to move the tax benefit for health insurance premiums from the employer to the individual. Unfortunately, that meant that employer paid healt care premiums would become taxable, and the Obomunists had a field day with that.

          • Jeff Weimer

            It was a complicated plan presented half-heartedly, like the campaign felt they HAD to say something. But their heart wasn’t in it.

            Health care is an issue growing in importance and people essentially want the problem to go away. the democrats and left have a simple solution – government provided and paid care. We know the problem is not that simple, and we want to keep it mostly in the private secotr. We come off as late to the party and a little too “me-too”ish when we present plans like McCain’s. When we knock on it, we appear like we’re merely criticizing, and without a practical solution.

            Now I understand and feel we need to move away from the employer-tied system we have now – and his plan was a good start. It was just easy to pick apart, and the tax implications were a good place to hit.

            I like the idea of MSA’s with supplemental insurance (it could even be government provided ala medicare/medicaid). Maybe we could fund them out of tax returns – a certain percentage (or the entire lot) of the child tax credit from the parents goes to fund the child’s MSA and it turns over to the child upon majority, and is subsequently funded from a percentage of his or her tax return.

          • Jeff Weimer

            For the record, I don’t claim my my idea is perfect. For instance, how do you fund the MSA if you’re unemployed, homeless, or don’t receive a tax return, but actually have to pay? the first two are a tougher nut to crack (hopefully unemployment is temporary, but homelessness makes it hard to get services), The last, at least for those with children, is to add the required amount to the tax bill.

        • Raven

          Like a company I worked for for a short time, called CareOne.
          You buy a membership into their PPO and then pay any doctor in their network the same price your insurance company would pay.
          If you have insurance, then it applies for whatever is left after the insurance has paid their part.
          Makes a Huge difference.

          The Market was already adjusting for the problems in Healcare Affordability. We only have to let it continue to do so. It may be slow to respond, sometimes, but it’s the only system that responds successfully.

          • Raven

            It puts the bill in your hands and the decisions about what will be covered in your wallet.
            Both programs do. They Can replace insurance, but don’t have to. They make great supplemental insurance.

  • http://web.mac.com/mayo99/iWeb/Site/VladBlog/VladBlog.html Vladimir

    …or a Canadian who wouldn’t come to the US for health care.

    He had adrenal gland irregularities that caused near total depletion of potassium in his system. He’s had symptoms for 20 years & has been actively treated for 6, with massive doses of pills.

    The procedure that saved him involved sampling blood near each gland & figuring out which one was haywire.

    The bad one was removed by scope on Monday & his potassium levels went to normal within 24 hrs.

    Five-year survival with prostate cancer is 95% here vs 76% in the UK. And then there’s dental care. Yikes. What more does one need to know about socialized medicine?

    • Next93

      I had a series of heart attacks two years ago. I probably would have gotten the emergency treatment I needed but my guess is that the non-emergency procedure that removed the final blockage would probably have been put off till it killed me.

      Every time I hear someone talk about our “broken” health care system, all I can think of is the 8 cardiac stents keeping the veins in my heart open. They were designed in America, implanted using tools and techniques developed in America, and emplaced by American doctors trained in American hospitals. That’s “broken”???

      • TNJim

        I have several friends who would be dead now if not for our “broken” health care system.

  • mom2oneson

    read the medicaid application when she signed it. I remember reading it and I felt like if I signed it I was signing over my child’s healthcare decisions to the state and was not comfortable with the terms on the application.
    I don’t see how the judge could even rule over this if the mother agreed to it when she applied for medicaid. I don’t see how we should be critical of the state limiting it when the parents are agreeing to that in the first place.

    Every insurance company has a medical director and nurses dealing with these cases, it’s not just a person with no healthcare experience. Usually these nurses are very well educated, sometimes with graduate degrees. I don’t think it’s fair to paint those working for the insurance companies with no healthcare experience.

    I’ve seen more problems with people not getting referrals and access to specialist due to their primary care physician not allowing it instead of the insurance company rejecting it.

    • mom2oneson

      is another example of what they try to do to the low income or gov dependent first, nobody fights them on it, and then they do it to everyone else, and they already have these examples for their case. The fine print in the medicaid application would be what they are doing to the poor first giving the state the decision making power.

  • constitutionalistconservative

    Great article Jeff! This has been weighing on me heavily lately.

    My wife is in the commercial insurance industry and due to abuse claims and malpractice claims (which pretty much anyone can file), many assisted living facilities have difficulties affording professional lines and care insurance (with an aging Grandmother, I have looked into these facilities and the least expensive ones are $65,000.00/yr here in Phoenix). The extent of these claims, lawsuits and the cost of defense are not just punishing those that need to be punished, but those that are providing top notch care.

    Same with general health insurance (whether private or government sponsored). I know plenty of 30 somethings that had aspirations to become doctors when they were in college (and they had the drive and spirit to make it happen). However, the extent of existing government controls and the ability for a patient with a malpractice suit to be able to sue the doctor ?into the ground? turned many of these folks away from the profession. Again, if the malpractice suit is warranted, fine; but do not destory the hard work ethic of other professional doctors by penalizing them as well with higher insurance rates. The malpractice system needs a total overhaul. What will happen when the government appointed doctor cuts into the wrong leg? Are we going to sue the government? Not going to happen. There goes patients’ rights right out the window!

    I also think that the health insurance system needs an overhaul. For example, I may visit the doctor every 5 to 6 years with a cold (I’m 35 and in fairly good shape), but I pay my insurance premium whether I am healthy or not. I think the healthier a person can show they are, the lower their premiums should be. If the system is to remain the same, I would like to see the insurance companies accrue all the premium amounts I do not use (because I am healthy) and create a ?bank account? for me to draw from as I get older. If I kick the bucket early, pass the funds on to another person (I know these insurance companies are investing the premiums at good rates of return). For cases such as Callie’s, I pay my taxes and my taxes should be going to work helping others such as Callie! I am in the commercial real estate profession and I go down to my local zoning department regularly. I see the four guys standing behind the counter talking about what to have on their pizza for lunch while I have to sign in and wait for an hour – even though I am the only person at the help desk. Whack! Three unneeded salaries gone and there is $150,000.00 a year for Callie’s care. The system is broken and only we can fix it!

    • http://briansimpson.wordpress.com Brian Simpson

      If the system is to remain the same, I would like to see the insurance companies accrue all the premium amounts I do not use (because I am healthy) and create a ?bank account? for me to draw from as I get older. If I kick the bucket early, pass the funds on to another person (I know these insurance companies are investing the premiums at good rates of return)

      While not quite 100% accrual, it would take a large portion of the money you set aside and place it in an account similar to a Roth IRA (same tax treatments and distribution requirements). You would still have some money sunk into the cost of the catastrophic portion of your insurance.

      See more at HSAEducator.com

    • $peciallist

      “What will happen when the government appointed doctor cuts into the wrong leg? Are we going to sue the government? Not going to happen. There goes patients? rights right out the window!”

      Patients will treated like Cattle….they will have to put little tags in our ears to keep track of us…

      and If they make a mistake…”Fill out this form and call this number and we’ll try to get that Good leg sewed back on as quick as possible..”

  • mom2oneson

    to file a suit with. I wonder if it was set up purposely to be taken to court, did the dr purposely prescribe more hours than he knew they would approve? It’s not something critical like a treament where she would suffer if they lost and there is time to drag it out in system. Whoever decided to use this case and sue is very smart.

  • student

    Back in the 1990s when Hillary care looked like it would pass the hospitals started to panic, contracted for market share without really understanding their prices, and while Hillary care was defeated, the dominos it set in motion led to a massive shift in power from doctors to insurers. The driver was that managed care would lower costs. And it did provide a one-time drop in costs of about 10%, about a years worth of medical cost inflation. The price of the shift from fee-for-service where your relationship with your physician controlled resource allocation to putting the insurance companies in control over the doctors functioning was that instead of physician’s master/client being you it became the insurance company. Now the state of Georgia is taking the next step. The “decider” about you health care will not be the physician you choose, or the insurance plan you choose (if you are lucky enough to have choice) but rather it will be the government bureaucracy and the political authorities. If you are really good at kissing up to them, maybe they will cut you slack so you can live. I saw this coming in the 1990s and got out of practicing medicine – a once noble profession now disempowered to all our detriment.

  • trki

    9/11 Bin Laden said “We will beat you with your own laws”,people look around.We have people in office still making policies that should not be there.Pelosi says the TEA party “was not grass root it was astro turf”. You are not suppose to say Christmas. Our justice system should get use to Sharia law.Our government,I use that term loosely,want’s to put our Veterans on an extremist list.We can’t get a political person to do the right thing.Then on top of all that,we are not to correct our own children without getting in trouble.Folks something is very wrong here. They want to tell doctors who they can and cannot treat.We are not to have an opinion,if we do we go on a list.It is our fault that Mexico is in the trouble it is in.We give them money both legal and illegal for years.Where is it? Then we give them Blackhawks,what a day.They have made enough off of us to buy their own! Call me an extremist but, they have not worked for us.Red or Blue,THEY work for themselves.Look around folks there is abigger picture.

  • observant

    well, that woud be me. I SHOULD HAVE THE FINAL SAY.

    The doctor I have is only interested in himself. I might as well have a faceless bureaucrat. Am I alone in living through this?

    I have no family, hence I have no family doctor. How about a doctor for us non-family types?

  • Luckyoldsun

    It suggests that under liberals/Democrats patients will be limited by government rationing as to the level and amount of health care they receive while under conservatives/Republicans, patients will live in a state of Nirvana where they get unlimited health care bases on the recommendatons of their “family doctor”.

    Of course under any system there will be rationing. Under the conservative/Republican system, the rationing is done by the insurance company.

    Obviously, under the market system there will be some rich people who can afford and receive “unlimited” health care. But politically speaking, people of the diarist’s persuasion seem to be trying to hoodwink middle (and even lower middle) class people into believing that THEY will receive unlimited healt care under a Republican system.

    • 6eorge Jetson

      It suggests that health care under government controlled systems provides a similar level of access, timeliness, and quality in liberal European/Canadian Nirvana as equal to that presently experienced in the less government controlled US system.

      Of course under any system there will be rationing. Under the liberal/Democratic system, rationing is done by the all powerful government, and doctors will have no say in the matter or ability to refuse an insurance provider by going elsewhere.

      Obviously, under the liberal European/Canadian system there are some rich people who can afford to travel to the US to receive “unlimited” health care. But politically speaking, people of the diarist’s persuation seem to be trying to hoodwink middle (and even upper middle) class people that THEY will receive free care of equal quality under a Democratic system.

      • Trelaina

        n/t

      • Luckyoldsun

        I have not suggested that upper middle class people will receive health care under a liberal/Democrat system that’s as good as what they’d get under a private/conservative system.

        If the diarist’s anecdote had been about some upper=middle classe person who’s benefits are better under private insurance than they would be under the liberal/Democratic system, I would not have objected.

        But the diarist specifically chose a poor Medicaid recipient for his anecdote and he objected to restrictions/rationing on HER coverage. The implication was that this welfare recipient would get unlimited, unrationed coverage under the conservative/Republican system,

        THAT’s the pie-ion-the-sky dishonesty.

    • Rod_Patrick

      to get your regular dose of DISHONESTY.

    • http://www.fredsnews.com Fred Maidment

      …but no one is claiming that under a free-market system there will be “unlimited” health care. That’s the mantra of the Left and its push for government health care.

      All anyone with half a brain is saying is that, with the profit-motive intact, the system will be far more efficient and effective than if run by government bureaucrats.

      Which it is. Why else would people come here from other countries to get health care that they are unable to get where they live?

      • Luckyoldsun

        That the medicaid/welfare recipient who was the subject of his diary would receive unlimited coverage under they system he advocates.

        Otherwise, what the h_ll was the point of the anecdote??

  • mistersnark

    …this situation happens all the time under our current privately-managed health care system. In fact, I would suggest that were this girl’s family on private insurance, their benefits would’ve been diminished long ago. As it is, they’re receiving 12 hours of free nursing care 7 days a week.

    So why is this even an item for comment?

  • mistersnark

    …this situation happens all the time under our current privately-managed health care system. In fact, I would suggest that were this girl’s family on private insurance, their benefits would’ve been diminished long ago. As it is, they’re receiving 12 hours of free nursing care 7 days a week.

    So why is this even an item for comment?

  • mistersnark

    Sorry for the dupe post.