No heroes or clean hands in S. Ossetia


(Lesterblog update)

(I would have edited the wording of some sentences that were more pertinent to Lesterblog but every such sentence included an important link, so I decided RS readers don’t need a further explanation of a cross-post, anyway.

BTW, I forgot that RS 3.0 was imminent when I disappeared a couple weeks back. I like it.)

This weekend’s rapidly escalating fighting in the former Soviet republic of Georgia is absolutely appalling. Saakashvili’s irresponsible and disastrous offensive to retake South Ossetia has provoked a predictably heavy-handed Russian retaliation. Both sides seem to be indiscriminately shelling and bombing civilian areas for (apparently) no greater cause than ethnocentric identity.


Things weren’t looking good for the next US president’s foreign policy, anyway, with Obama advised by Brzezinski and McCain advised by Scheunemann, we were already looking at needless antagonism of Russia, which would set back future energy supply farther than new domestic drilling could ever make up for, among other important considerations. Now Russia’s hand has been forced and the whole thing is just a sorry spectacle for all.

For better elaboration on my under-attributed submission, I think I most favor Anne Applebaum’s take on the whole scenario.

BTW, I have added A Secondhand Conjecture to the blogroll because that’s been the best blog roundup of South Ossetia news and views I’ve found tonight.

EXTRA:

I say “extra” because I wish to mention something extraneous to the main body of the post, in the sense that it ties my region to the region in question and adds a few human faces to my expressed position, and I also do this with no express or implied attempt to characterize the opinions of the subject matter held by those individuals. Our Congressman is Rep. Paul Broun, MD, and tonight, his official front page has a photo of a recent visit with University of Georgia head football coach Mark Richt, who has adopted two orphans from Ukraine.

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17 Comments Leave a comment

one sentence you write needs to be explained

pilgrim Sunday, August 10th at 7:21AM EDT (link)

You write this:

Saakashvili’s irresponsible and disastrous offensive to retake South Ossetia has provoked a predictably heavy-handed Russian retaliation.

Could you imagine writing the sentence this way?

Putin’s irresponsible and disastrous offensive to retake Chechn’ya has provoked a predictably heavy-handed Turkish retaliation.

I didn’t think so. I liked the anecdote about the coach and the adoption of the children from Ukraine. I don’t like the idea of waking a Russian bear out of its slumber, but I am not that sure the Russian bear had been sleeping in this case.

It is a great advantage to a president, and a major source of safety to the country, for him to know that he is not a great man.Calvin Coolidge

Thanks. Mentioning the Turks

jonlester Sunday, August 10th at 7:34PM EDT (link)

in the imagined rewording isn’t very far off. I was reminded of how we’ve managed the Turks and the Iraqi Kurds regarding the PKK. Unlikely as it may be, if someone rallied the Peshmerga for incursions into Turkey proper, we’d have a real disaster. We’d probably have to say to the Turks, “hey, why don’t you run it from now on? We’ll see ya.”

 
 

S Ossetia issue cannot

Rod_Patrick Monday, August 11th at 2:24AM EDT (link)

be fully explained by this:

Saakashvili’s irresponsible and disastrous offensive to retake South Ossetia has provoked a predictably heavy-handed Russian retaliation.

You are at least responsible to explain the causes and ramifications of the said conflict since you have named your diary as “no heroes or clean hands in S Ossetia”. Georgia’s offensive has deeper internal reasons that your diary seems to shun.

You know that Georgia is our major ally in Iraq War. We should start educating the people on this issue, especially if our leaders, particularly McCain, are considering to make specific efforts in assisting Georgia on this conflict.

 

UNRECOMMEND

JSobieski Monday, August 11th at 3:36AM EDT (link)

“This weekend’s rapidly escalating fighting in the former Soviet republic of Georgia is absolutely appalling.”

We agree on something, just not a lot.

“Saakashvili’s irresponsible and disastrous offensive to retake South Ossetia has provoked a predictably heavy-handed Russian retaliation.”

Offensive? When is it offensive to establish law and order within a nation. Georgia is a democracy. People in Georgia vote for their leaders. They have courts, rule of law, etc. There have been rocket attacks and other activities (one of the few places in the world in 2008 where terrorism does not mean Islamic terrorism). Georgia is a country striving hard to conduct itself like the US. To take on a moral equivalence tone in this context is an error if you value Western-style rights.

“Both sides seem to be indiscriminately shelling and bombing civilian areas”

NOT TRUE. This is the kind of propaganda people put out about US forces in Iraq. By the way, the Georgian air force is hardly capable of bombing anything.

“for (apparently) no greater cause than ethnocentric identity.”

Actually, the Ossetians are not ethnically Russian. The Russian strategy of doling out citizenship to the Ossetians is part of an effort to undermine the democratic government of Georgia.

“Things weren’t looking good for the next US president’s foreign policy, anyway, with Obama advised by Brzezinski and McCain advised by Scheunemann, we were already looking at needless antagonism of Russia, which would set back future energy supply farther than new domestic drilling could ever make up for, among other important considerations.”

True, but giving in now will make us worse off in the long term. If Russia is allowed to control the pipeline, then they will use that control in the future. Letting them have it so that we don’t antagonize them is folly.

“Now Russia’s hand has been forced”

Forced? They just want control over the pipeline and to otherwise dominate their neighbors. The Russian government barely cares about Russians. Why do you believe they care a lick about Ossetians except as a tool to bring Georgia to its knees.

“and the whole thing is just a sorry spectacle for all.”

So what the absorption of Georgia into the USSR—doesn’t mean we shouldn’t aid Georgia in any way that we can.

We are trying to bring Western style governments to Iraq and Afghanistan, and the fit is a difficult one.

Georgia is actively trying to become like the U.S. If we let them die, if we let democracy die in a country where people from the ground up are trying to build something truly Western, then we will have betrayed all of the principles that this country stands for, and others will learn from this example.


Ossetian forces are like the PLO

JSobieski Monday, August 11th at 3:43AM EDT (link)

From your own link:

“Whenever someone starts telling us about shelling in Tskhinvali, it is important to keep in mind exactly what Tskhinvali is. It is not a city somewhere in the middle of a republic that is being fired upon by saboteurs. On three sides, Tskhinvali is surrounded by Georgian villages. The edge of Tskhinvali is a military outpost. South Ossetian forces fire from there into the Georgian villages, and the Georgians respond with fire of their own. To help keep Georgian fire from hitting civilians in the city, all the South Ossetians would have to do is move their military base forward a couple hundred meters.

But, of course, it is a fundamental principle of terrorists the world over — set up firing points in civilian areas and then when your enemy fires on you, you gleefully parade the bodies of your own children in front of the television cameras. Kokoity’s terrorists are following this same principle. If South Ossetia can in any way be considered a state, it must be considered a terrorist state.

When we are told about “peaceful civilians” in South Ossetia, we must keep in mind that the situation there is similar to that in Palestinian refugee camps. South Ossetia, like the Palestinian Liberation Organization before it, is not a state or an ethos or a territory. It is a peculiar form of mutated government in which residents have been turned into militarized refugees. It is a quasi-armed force that is not allowed by the authorities to occupy itself with anything other than war — a situation that gives the authorities absolute power and absolute control over the money at its disposal. It is a place where the hysteria of this disfigured population is the primary means of filling the authorities’ personal coffers.”

Given this context, it is unfair to call the Georgian military move “offensive.”

Not all terrorism is motivated by Jihad. Unfortunately, non-Jihadists are apparently learning some things from the PLO, Hezbollah, and others.


It was *an* offensive, in tactical terms,

jonlester Monday, August 11th at 12:49PM EDT (link)

and it was sort of like if Eliot Ness and two other guys had tried to storm Al Capone’s headquarters by themselves. They might have been on the right side of things but it’s always smarter to have your backup in on the plan before you start acting.

talk about offensive

pilgrim Monday, August 11th at 1:07PM EDT (link)

I find it offensive that Russians inscribed ‘this is for America and NATO’ on the bombs they chose to drop on Georgia. I find it offensive that the Russians have taken over command of the city of Gori and Poti, and are on their way toward Tbilisi.

It is a great advantage to a president, and a major source of safety to the country, for him to know that he is not a great man.Calvin Coolidge

I'll agree they were waiting for a pretext.

jonlester Monday, August 11th at 2:32PM EDT (link)

Nobody has a monopoly on jingoism.

True enough

JSobieski Monday, August 11th at 2:55PM EDT (link)

but Georgia behaving jingoistically is a joke. They’ve been a subjugated people for centuries.

The thing everyone fails to mention is that Georgian towns (and the civilian inhabitants) were being hit by rockets provided by . . . Russia.

Georgia has to defend the life of its citizens. Georgia is not the side placing military units in civilian areas to generate civilian casualities.

This is Israel/PLO all over again, only Georgia doesn’t have the advantages that Israel has.


I definitely am not commenting

JSobieski Monday, August 11th at 3:02PM EDT (link)

on whether Georgia is being sufficiently smart.

However, your usage of the word “offensive” is a bit off, in that rocket attacks against Georgia have been ongoing and increasing. In contrast, Copone cared more about making money than killing for killings sake.

Ness could choose his time. When civilians are being attacked by rockets funded by a foreign sovereign, you don’t have the same options.

Georgia is merely asking from us what we asked from the French in 1776.

At the very least, we shouldn’t engage in moral equivalence here.


True enough

JSobieski Monday, August 11th at 3:02PM EDT (link)

but Georgia behaving jingoistically is a joke. They’ve been a subjugated people for centuries.

The thing everyone fails to mention is that Georgian towns (and the civilian inhabitants) were being hit by rockets provided by . . . Russia.

Georgia has to defend the life of its citizens. Georgia is not the side placing military units in civilian areas to generate civilian casualities.

This is Israel/PLO all over again, only Georgia doesn’t have the advantages that Israel has.


My use of the word "offensive,"

jonlester Monday, August 11th at 7:57PM EDT (link)

describing Georgia’s actions going into Friday, was consistent with initial news reports I saw Friday morning. Nothing to do with Russia’s efforts and motivations in anticipating such a pretext.

That's my point

JSobieski Monday, August 11th at 8:11PM EDT (link)

Since when do RedStaters take press reports without a grain of salt? Without some additional context? Like history?

Neighborhood bully attacks people on and off for quite some time. When he gets in s scuffle with a good neighbor, you would probably characterize the good neighbor as defending himself until you have good reason to do otherwise.


Thankfully it's no matter of pride for me

jonlester Monday, August 11th at 8:19PM EDT (link)

if I’m wrong to get more of a Greece vs. Turkey feeling about the whole thing, more than something more sinister and universally threatening to the world at large. If it’s ultimately true or not that an aspiratonial, adoptive “kid brother” tried to start a fight for us, then that’s one more contingency we need to think about in the future when we make new alliances.

Make that "aspirational."

jonlester Monday, August 11th at 8:20PM EDT (link)

Saw the mistake as posting was in progress.

Georgia is a success story for

JSobieski Monday, August 11th at 8:40PM EDT (link)

new democracies.

Russia has a history of being an aggressor.

Ergo, this is not a Turkey vs. Greece situation (no offense to the Greeks).

If you to have successful Iraqs, you need Georgias out there–countries making themselves Western without lots of aid, intervention, etc. based on their own home grown aspirations.

But heck, what do we care?


I like your sig file, BTW.

jonlester Monday, August 11th at 9:46PM EDT (link)

Not to threadjack, but that statement made by the Muslim Brotherhood is exactly why we haven’t aggressively promoted regime change in Syria, because the MB is most likely to fill the power vacuum if the minority Alawite regime is overthrown. It’s too bad because that would otherwise go a long way to solving the Iran and Lebanon problems as well as improve the overall picture in Iraq. One more unhappy truth in our geopolitical situation.

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

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