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A call to unity! The necessity of voting out Obama in 2012 and stopping the leftist tilt of the 20th Century

I will vote for the Republican nominee for President in 2012. I will only vote to send Republicans to Washington DC. I will take the opportunity to try and convince others to do likewise.

I make these statements enthusiastically and unequivocally. This may not be big news since I have always voted to send Republicans to DC. Not once in my life have I ever voted to send a candidate from the Democrat party, the Libertarian party, the Reform party, etc. to Washington DC. 

It should go without saying that it is absolutely imperative that President Obama not win re-election in 2012. The stakes are incredibly high, and if we are to achieve this shared goal we will need to at least not deliberately insult each other. The anti-Obama coalition has to survive through November 2012. We either stand together, or the country will change in ways that are too horrible to fully fathom.

Many political blogs have included inspirational clips from the movie Braveheart. If that movie can’t get your blood pumping faster about the basic struggles that have existed throughout human history, nothing will. I confess that back when I was a litigator, I would play songs from the Braveheart soundtrack before court appearances in an attempt to distract me from the nervousness resulting from my inexperience.

This is not one of those inspirational clips. I think we need a different kind of motivation. The clip is an example of people who should be united against a common foe but instead are disabled from effective action as a result of unproductive infighting.

 <iframe title=”YouTube video player” width=”640″ height=”390″ src=”http://www.youtube.com/embed/p9AG3Z9Nyu0” frameborder=”0″ allowfullscreen></iframe>

Braveheart clip.

For those who have not seen the movie*–it ends with the betrayal and execution of William Wallace. The people of Scotland could not unite effectively in their common interest against the English king. Their disagreements were real. I am not glossing over them. However, the interests and benefits of temporary unity far outweighed what divided them. Unfortunately for them, they weren’t able to realize that until William Wallace’s head was placed on stick for public display.

I am not calling for a “truce” on anything. People should stick to their principles, and be willing to defend those principles with rational argument and evidence. All I am asking for is that commentors not so quickly challenge the good faith of other commentors.  Please remember that at the end of the day, we want everyone at Red State to vote Republican in 2012. Friends can disagree with each other. Allies can have different belief systems from each other. However, it is difficult to stay in the same foxhole with someone who impugns your character or insults you. There will be a lot of internal arguments between now and November 2012. We need to be aware that while the arguments can and should fly between now and then, we want the “other guy” to vote Republican in 2012.

We don’t want people sitting on their hands. We don’t want people making protest votes for third parties that we all know have no chances of winning. In short, we need to acknowledge that there is sufficient common ground that unites us that even those we disagree with be accommodated a certain modicrum of respect.  At a mimumum, we don’t need to be picking fights, looking for ways to insult, etc. with those who share some very important common goals.  At this point, I think most of us are aware of certain scars that need not be picked.

Some specific data points for consideration:

1. Reversability of Obamacare.  In the history of the Western world, I am unaware of any nation that has instituted government provided universal health care and managed to repeal it.  The US is an exceptional nation, but we should not fool ourselves into thinking repeal of Obamacare is an easy task. Once its tentacles are fully embedded into the fabric of the country (like SS and Medicare before it), it will become harder and harder to change, much less repeal.

2. Window of opportunity. If Obamacare is not repealed by 2014, the odds of it being repealed are low.  There is only one presidential election between now and then.  There will be only one more Congressional election between now and then.  When the window closes, smart money says the window will stay closed.

3. The ability to truly “be conservative” will be permanently changed if Obamacare is not repealed.  However you define conservative, the ability to actually pursue and implement conservative policies will be forever altered if Obamacare is not repealed.  You can argue about the definitions of conservative, neo-cons, paleo, etc until you are blue in the face.

Those definitions will become meaningless in a post-Obamacare world. Conservatism as we know it here in the US in 2010 doesn’t exist anywhere else in the Western world. Limited government as known by Americans before the Wilson and FDR administrations is unknown to us here in 2010, and doesn’t exist anywhere on the globe.      

     A. Pre-Wilson Administration.  There were people who supported limited government before the Woodrow Wilson administration.  No doubt they believed passionately in their principles.  However, the ideas and ideology of those individuals were permanently precluded from the political landscape as a result of the Wilson administration.  To this date, no matter who was in power in DC, we have not been able to get even close for the limited government positions of people living in the early 20th century.  The leftist and statist tilt of Wilson stands unreversed today.  The ideologies of those Wilson opponents are irrelevant today. Whatever differences divided them, they all ended up as political losers—and their ideas and beliefs regarding the appropriate size of government have largely been vanguished from the face of the earth.  No doubt they had disagreements as well, but in hindsight, can there be any doubt that what united them was far more important than what divided them? No elected official in DC in the year 2010 represents a position that Wilson’s opponents would recognize as “limited government” from their perspective.  The ideology of those opponents is dead, and their internal disagreements died with them.

     B. Pre-New Deal.  The New Deal was opposed by a sizable percentage of the U.S. population.  There were a lot of people arguing that our system of limited government was being threatened by FDR.  The judicial system struck down so many of FDR’s initiatives, that the threatened to enlarge and then stack the court with less hostile justices.  The ideologies of the individuals who opposed the New Deal are totally absent in today’s political landscape.  Back in the day, elected officials actually disputed the validity of Social Security.  Since that time, the landscape has changed.  As conservative as Senator DeMint is, he is not willing to do what many Republican Senators did at the time that SS was enacted—to oppose  the existence of Social Security as a federal entitlement.  The viewpoints of those who opposed the New Deal have almost entirely disappeared from the political landscape of 2010.  Whatever differences they had, their unity or lack thereof with regards to SS is the legacy that they leave behind.  Put another way, being for “limited government” in 2010 is unrecognizable as the “limited government” position to those who opposed the New Deal.  The markers have once again been moved, and they have been moved against.

      C. UK and Canada.  The UK and Canada are excellent examples of how a government healthcare system makes being “conservative” functionally impossible as we currently think of in today’s terms.  Thatcher was undoubtedly the high water mark of conservatism in the UK.  However, she did not even voice an attempt to junk the national health system.  Give the huge expense of that health system and the contrary data point with respect to limited government, the best that Thatcher could do was privatize some industries and reduce some taxes.  I am not saying her policies weren’t bold, but in comparison to the Reagan policies of the 1980s, it was small potatoes. The ability to do anyting that we would call conservative was simply made impossible by the national health system.  The same can be said for Canada.  Canada right now has the most conservative leadership than it has ever had during my lifetime.  However, by American standards, Harper is a moderate Republican.  In Canada, he is there version of Sen DeMint.  National healthcare moves political markers in  a way that will be very destructive.

The Bottom Line:

We can spend a lot of time in the next 2 years arguing about what the proper definition of conservatism is.  However, if in doing so, we manage to break apart our 2012 stop Obama coalition, our arguments, values, and belief systems will ultimately become irrelevant.  The yard markers will have moved. 

Just as the positions of “limited government voters” pre-Wilson and pre-FDR are found only in history books, so to will the arguments we make today if Obamacare is not repealed.

We must stop Obama in 2012 and we must repeal Obamacare in 2013.  Otherwise, none of arguments about “definitions” will ever matter again.

 

*Please note that I am not making an argument either way about the historical accuracy of the movie.

COMMENTS

  • aesthete

    Even the debt is negotiable if we kill ObamaCare.

    • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

      in its analysis of real limited govt drift and the tipping point that is ObamaCare, but the best sentence, from a human standpoint and which echoes my aversion to the anti-troll/moby obsession, is the following from ‘ski:

      “All I am asking for is that commentors not so quickly challenge the good faith of other commentors.”

      YES!!!!!!!

      Let us focus on what is said, ie the substance. Who cares what their inner motives are? We have the words on paper. Deal with them, because to win converts and win elections and eventually become the majority party, we have to refute the BS ideas of many average non-political people that here the BS. So that it is important to refute that carp.

      I thank God when libs come here and do that. Its an opportunity to spread the conservative gospel.

      Yours truly is a convert and some of the reasons I eventually was won over was based on things conservatives said to me over 20 years earlier that I finally understood.

      ‘ski, you are one of the reasons I come here.

      I learned today.

      • LisaDe

        Great comment to a great diary.

        This website will grow considerably over the coming year because of the name it has made for itself. There are going to be many moderate/independent people who may be “curious” about an outside candidate (say,,,someone like Herman Cain) and stumble here for information. I believe it is imperative to watch the mocking and insulting and we must win every single one of them over.

        Fantastic!

      • donnybrooke

        John Adams: Well, Mr. Rutledge.
        Edward Rutledge: [stands] Mr. Adams, you must believe that I *will* do what I promised to do.
        John Adams: [stands and approaches him] What is it you want, Rutledge?
        Edward Rutledge: Remove the offending passage from your Declaration.
        John Adams: If we did that, we would be guilty of what we ourselves are rebelling against.
        Edward Rutledge: Nevertheless… remove it, or South Carolina will bury, now and forever, your dream of independence.
        Dr. Benjamin Franklin: John? I beg you consider what you’re doing.
        John Adams: Mark me, Franklin… if we give in on this issue, posterity will never forgive us.
        Dr. Benjamin Franklin: That’s probably true, but we won’t hear a thing, we’ll be long gone. Besides, what would posterity think we were? Demi-gods? We’re men, no more no less, trying to get a nation started against greater odds than a more generous God would have allowed. First things first, John. Independence; America. If we don’t secure that, what difference will the rest make?

        • redneck_hippie

          That said, there can be nothing gained by messing up the planks of the Republican party platform, and a whole lot lost. (Not saying you are suggesting that).

  • bobmontgomery

    ….and how much you admire the libertarian cause of anti-big governmentism, is to write a diary condemning Ted Olson and his using big government to thwart the will of the people of California in re Proposition 8. Another way you could demonstrate the value of libertarian principles would be to blog about the federal governments strong-arm tactics on the US military in getting them to agree to repeal of DADT. Everybody here knows about rugged individualism and pre-Wilson federalism and everybody knows government is way too big.. You and your friends have swamped the Red State archives with your writings on it. And Obamacare bad. We get that ,too. Obamacare will not be the law of the land because THE STATES ARE GOING TO TAKE CARE OF THAT, and it is rather ironic that you, the libertarian apologizer, have to once again call on BIG GOVERNMENT, Congress, to save us all. Repeal Obamacare, or we are doomed, you say. We already knew that. We knew that when it was passed. We knew that in 1993. You are not educating anybody here. It is being taken care of. Find some other issue you think we should focus all our attention on so that you don’t have to hear about conservative values at Red State.

    • JSobieski

      I was also against the repeal of DADT in 2010.

      I was also against the intial DADT policy back in 1992.

      Why do you feel so interested in attacking part of the center-right coalition that will be needed in 2012?

      I hope the states are successfully in killing Obamacare, but I wouldn’t bet on it.

      • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

        Now, does ‘ski sometimes enjoy the sport of shooting fish in a barely and questioning all sides on a issue, thus breaking the hearts of those that thought he had agreed? yes, and that can be annoying, but the real issue is

        PALIN!!!!!

        that’s an inside joke, but

        seriously, after quitting her guvnership and then having her child appear on a tell-all show and now, last straw

        trademarking her name?

        a joke now

        • redneck_hippie

          from my perspective is that 3 (at least) potential Rep pres wannabees came right out and criticized Palin’s addressing of the Phoenix media crapstravaganza. Reagan never would have done anything like that.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            and Reagan would have been right.

    • JSobieski

      http://crosstabs.net/blogs/jsobieski

      http://crosstabs.net/blogs/jsobieski/2008/may/31/polygamy_in_canada

      What are you doing to bridge the divide? Besides insult other people and question their good faith?

      • edwyrd

        as long as we work together to expose the ruthlessly liberal agenda of the democrats by
        A) a constant barrage of anti-obamacare- spending- liberal regulatory madness legislation in congress
        B) wage a no quaters given war against the american pravda media
        ( biting their ears off would be fun )
        C) take cold warriors advice

        stick in oven untill nov 2012.
        remove to find liberal goose fully cooked!

      • bobmontgomery

        ..if we get very much of it in the US it will be bad, and gay marriage legalization might lead to polygamy legalization, but that’s not why I’m against it. I am against treason, too, but I am not against it because it might lead to corruption. I am against gay marriage on principle. You?

      • Doc Holliday

        he made YOUR point in his first post.

      • Finrod

        I’ve frequently quoted Benjamin Franklin, and I’ll do it again:

        “Gentlemen, if we do not hang together, we will most certainly hang separately.”

        • acat
    • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

      Congress makes the laws and repeals the laws. It is, as an institution, neutral on the size of gvt! It is the people in Congress that decide that. The enemy is liberalism! To fix America without violence, we will need to have Congress do a lot!

      seriously man

      • bobmontgomery

        I am trying to get Sobieski to spend less time trying to get social conservatives to agree to a truce and then when he gets called on it to cop a “plea for unity”.
        On Obamacare, the people have spoken. Red State has spoken, there is a Republican House of Representatives and they have spoken. There is not a whole lot more that we can do. As I said, many of the states have taken this on. Many of them started early on. If you want to get technical about it, Obamacare is null and void, having been ruled so by a Federal Judge. So I see “rallying around Obamacare repeal” as a diversion. As Bill S. likes to say, we can walk and chew gum at the same time, But if you really want to ‘target’ 2012 and the current occupant and get him out of the way of full repeal, here is a tactic: spend a little time blogging about Obama’s recent outreach feeler he put out saying he is now “conflicted” about the issue of gay marriage. You could use a social conservative platform to attack him on his adherence, or non-adherence. to a value system and show that he is either lying or he doesn’t have a compass of any sort. Think “goProud” would join in that effort?. Nope. But soc cons gotta button it and get GoProud-of-it support,So the worth to conservatives of their marriages may not be reduced to zero, but it has to be discounted to get some “diversity goin’ on in here”? Is that how we’re supposed to roll? How about our patriotism? Discount? Recognition of the value and heritage and worth of the Jewish Homeland which was the wellspring of the faith of a large majority of the American people? Discount?

        In a nutshell, Mike, it’s the old tune “If you don’t stand for something, you’ll fall for anything.”

        • Scope

          It’s getting a little crazy here at Redstate. It seems that we have some coming out in support of posters, and their ideas, that would never have supported some of those ideas in the past. Yes, I’m looking at you GC. You seem to have been all over the map with your ideas lately. Then again, I know you to be a very kind and more than tolerent person. You would try to find the good in everything and anything. I personally don’t operate that way. There really are some things that are not in the conservatives best interest, despite your want to think it so.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            see as “all over the map”…but yes, I do look for the good in things first.

        • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • pastisprolog

    You?ve written on another post that you have covered the realm of religious beliefs, and the horizon of political beliefs. Are you still sometimes here, and sometimes there?

    To which I wrote answer I can’t paste in here, and asked you if I answered your question.

    It’s under the post where I pointed out that an early draft of the Declaration of Independence had, life liberty and property, instead of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

    I hope this clears that up.

    • Scope

      you have answered my question. Thanks for being on the correct side, and not backing down. It does get tiresome having to defend conservatism from those that want nothing more than to change it into what they want it to be. Even when they only agree on some very narrow points.

      • pastisprolog

        I’m signing off to go to church and spend a couple fo days trying to find a good used car for my neice.

        I’ll be back.

  • http://www.timelyrenewed.com timelyrenewed

    to restore true limited constitutional government. Much of the Obama administration’s ability to wreck such havoc comes from a constitutional jurisprudence beginning in the late 1930s which has allowed the national government to expand far beyond its proper constitutional bounds. We can only hope to be free of this or future administrations of its ilk when we restore the original limits on the national government. Given how deeply entrenched that New Deal jurisprudence is this restoration will only be accomplished by amendments restating and reaffirming those original constitutional understandings. See http://www.timelyrenewed.com.

  • avgjo

    I would ask that we add to the agenda legislation making a future version of OBamacare very, very difficult to enact. Otherwise, we’ll just be fighting this war all over again in a few years.

    • redneck_hippie

      I jest. I jest.

      Everything needed is already in the Constitution as written. We just need to work harder at convincing people that we are right and get them to vote! See mid-term election 2010. See Cold Warrior Neighborhood Precinct Committeeman Project (assuming you aren’t already in).

      • avgjo

        some clarification is necessary for the idiots (read: democrats), as in ‘THIS is what the Constitution means, you dolts. And since we know some of you aren’t idiots but just low-life deceivers and manipulators, we’re making unconstitutional legislation that much more difficult to enact. Maybe push an ‘anti-government healthscare amendment’ to the Constitution. Something like that.

        As to the ‘birther’ thing, joke or not, I try hard to respect the rules here and those say no discussion of ‘birtherism’, so I’ll just not address the joke beyond this comment. .

  • runner12

    I believe that we can fight for this country both on the socially conservative front and on the fiscal and limited government front. But we cannot do that if we do not quite hurling insults at our own that have the potential to cause a permanent divide.

    When I say this I am talking to BOTH sides. This goes for Daniels and his “truce” statements, GoProud and their attacks on So-cons, and conservatives who think anyone who has a libertarian thought is the enemy.

    It is fine to have respectful and even passionate disagreements. Many of our differences are real and deep. But we MUST unify around one thing, defeating Obama and the Left.

    It will take all of us to grow-up and realize that the real danger is not other conservatives, it is the Left. That does not mean that we compromise on any of our beliefs or positions to “get more votes.” That only makes us look weak and foolish. No, we stand up for what we believe in and agree to disagree when necessary. But at the end of the day we can ALL agree that Obama and the Left must be defeated.

    • runner12
  • carolina

    …. even if its Romney (gag me).
    Congress can hold the true conservative line. We need a candidate that will carry the INDEPENDENTS.

    • YnotNOW

      that we discuss (respectfully) among ourselves during the primaries, and then unite behind the nominees in the General. Bill Buckley?s axiom to vote for the most conservaive candidate (who has a chance of winning) in the primary, and then Republican in the General.

      Party trumps person nearly every time. It is not just a choice of ?the lesser of two evils,? but a choice of what platform will provide the direction of the country.

      Any vote or support otherwise means a vote for Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, Barack Obama, and their agenda to fundamentally change what it means to be American.

      • YnotNOW

        not just “hold your nose and vote for the lesser evil, but actually support with your time, money and influence!

  • mspector

    As things stand we will have a smorgasbord of candidates and viewpoints to choose from in 2012. We will hear all sorts of proposals, program points and philosophies. We will hear those who say the GOP candidate must be a person of principle on this issue or that, and we will hear those who say the main issue is finding an electable candidate. We will decide in the primaries.

    But throughout all that, and certainly in the general election, we would do well always to remember “the eleventh commandment” (courtesy of Ronald Reagan): “thou shalt not speak ill of any fellow Republican”. Meaning: keep the battles political. If you oppose Sarah Palin, oppose her ideas and don’t snark on whether Todd had an affair or not. Remember that everything we say during the primaries will be grist for the Democratic mill after the conventions.

    And when the primaries are done, regardless of who the party has chosen, we must all stand behind that choice and not present as a movement divided against itself.

    • rebel1

      I agree with the person, that wrote this article, that it is time for us all to get united if we are to save this country as we know it.

  • jone

    OBAMA FULFILLING THE BIBLE

    Can you guess which Bible verses Barack Hussein Obama likes to avoid?
    Proverbs 19:10 (NIV): “It is not fitting for a fool to live in luxury – how much worse for a slave to rule over princes!”
    Also Proverbs 30:22 (NIV) which says that the earth cannot bear up under “a servant who becomes king.”
    And Ecclesiastes 5:2-3 (KJV) advises: “let thy words be few…a fool’s voice is known by multitude of words.”
    Although Obama is not descended from slaves, he may feel that he’s destined to become a black-slavery avenger.
    Or maybe an enslaver of all free citizens!
    For some stunning info on Pres. Obama and his fellow subversives, Google “Michelle Obama’s Allah-day,” “Obama Supports Public Depravity,” “David Letterman’s Hate Etc.,” “Un-Americans Fight Franklin Graham” and also “Sandra Bernhard, Larry David, Kathy Griffin, Bill Maher, Joan Rivers, Sarah Silverman.” Also Google “Prof. F. N. Lee’s ISLAM IN THE BIBLE [PDF].”
    PS – Since Christians are commanded to ask God to send severe judgment on persons who commit and support the worst forms of evil (see I Cor. 5 and note “taken away”), Christians everywhere should constantly pray that the Lord will soon “take away” or at least overthrow all US leaders who continue to sear their conscience and arrogantly trample the God-given rights of the majority including the rights of the unborn. Do we need a second American Revolution?
    PPS – For a rare look at the 181-year-old endtime belief which has long neutralized millions of American patriots by promising them an “imminent rapture” off earth – which has diverted them away from being prepared to stand against all enemies, domestic as well as foreign – Google “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty,” “Pretrib Rapture Diehards,” “Edward Irving is Unnerving,” “Pretrib Rapture Secrecy,” and “Pretrib Rapture – Hidden Facts” – all by the author of the bestselling nonfiction book “The Rapture Plot” (the most accurate documentation on the pretrib rapture’s long hidden birth in Britain in 1830 – see Armageddon Books). Also Google “Stamping Out Harold Camping.”

  • Change Jar Conservative

    I’ll vote for the GOP nominee but I still have favorites in the primaries:

    TIER I (You will get money and volunteer time out of me for sure)
    Daniels, Pawlenty, Barbour, Santorium

    Tier II (Ehh … )
    Romney, Gingrich, Thune, Bachmann

    Tier III (Please NO, please, please, please NO):
    Huckabee, Trump, Guiliani, Huntsman, Palin

  • Bill S

    the government is only able to do one thing at a time.

  • redneck_hippie

    for a short term goal. I approve of the label “anti-Obama coalition” and have used it here myself.

    Perhaps I need a bumper sticker, ANTI-Obama coalition 2012.

  • JSobieski

    I said as we take on multiple issues, keep in mind the most important issue for 2012–the one issue that essentially cant be reversed and avoid ticking off the people we will need to reverse it.

    10,000 foot paraphrasing doesn’t really help clarify anything.

  • http://www.theprecinctproject.wordpress.com ColdWarrior

    I share JSobieski’s sense of urgency.

    That is why I advocate taking her call for unity one step further.

    Conservative Republicans, let each one of us, who has the time (only a few hours a month), also unite politically inside the Republican Party itself, filling up every local precinct committeeman slot so we can get the vote out for the best conservative candidates in the 2012 primaries like never before, turning our Party into a full-strength, conservative GOTV powerhouse — for lack of a better term, let us make full use of our existing Republican Party structure, locally, where we live — which I’ve referred to, for lack of a better term, The Neighborhood Precinct Committeeman Strategy.

    Erick Erickson advocates this strategy in the last chapter of his book, Red State Rising

    Karen Martin advocates the Strategy for South Carolinians.

    Change Jar Conservative advocates the Strategy for Georgians.

    Ron Robinson advocates the Strategy and has created a set of digital precinct and district organizing tools — Procinct — that Michael Steele had promised but never delivered.

    LUR advocates the Strategy and worked to develop the GOTV tools at the Concord Project.

    Many other Redstaters have taken the plunge, too. I don’t think a one of them have said they’ve regretted it. Quite the contrary.

    And, soon, a conservative Republican presidential hopeful may announce that he or she intends to advocate the Strategy as part of his or her campaign strategy. Stay tuned.

    Let’s unite inside the Republican Party like never before and fill up all those local committeeman slots and help get conservative wins in all the primary elections in 2012 — but let’s get on this now as, in some states, deadlines for filling the empty committeeman slots are fast approaching. Do your state’s deadlines?

    And the added bonuses? We’ll also have a full-strength, rather than a half-strength Party. And it will be a predominantly conservative Party.

    Thank you.

    For Liberty,

    ColdWarrior

  • Bill S

    but this pretty much smacked of a one-issue objective to me:

    We must stop Obama in 2012 and we must repeal Obamacare in 2013. Otherwise, none of arguments about ?definitions? will ever matter again.

    I do appreciate your disowning of the truces, however.

  • redneck_hippie
  • rightwingmom52

    of our county Republican Party last night and am hopefully going to maneuver my way onto the steering committee as soon as possible. It’s a small but first step, and I probably wouldn’t have done it had I not read your posts. I am aligned with a group of conservatives and self-identified libertarians (including at least one Ron Paul 2012 supporter) that have taken over about 1/3 of the positions in the county party, and we are trying our best to overtake the establishment folks. I may not agree with them on everything, and I will not shut up re any leg of my conservative beliefs, but we are unified in our goal to change a few things, one of which is to elect someone other than Richard Shelby as our U.S. Senator.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens
  • redneck_hippie

    between The Constitution and The Bible. Having both is so much more than having either one alone. That’s my ven diagram.

  • JSobieski
  • JSobieski

    the disagreements don’t make it impossible to work together.

    There is nothing inconsistent with saying:
    (1) One issue is more important than other issues for the moment
    (2) If that one issue doesn’t go our way, a lot of disagreement will no longer matter
    (3) Nobody should stop pressing forward on those other issues
    (4) Just be mindful of (1) and (2) in pursuing (3)

    I write under the pen name of JSobieski, the name of Polish King who defended Christiandom from Muslim invaders at Vienna in 1683. I am not for sweeping social issues under any rugs. I am for getting a long well enough with people like Aesthete and other libertarian leaning conservatives to effectively preserve. No libertarian is going to choose JSobieski as a pen name. I have had this name for years here at RS. but when I start responding to what are some over the top attacks on libertarianism (people calling it anarcho-capitalism, the desire to live without a conscience, or equivalent to pre-WWII Italy), I respond as vehemntly as I can.

    I know a lot of libertarian leaning independents, and while I disagree with them, its not productive to insult them.

    In any case, its clear that I can’t do anything to effectively remediate this issue, so I will stop trying. Conservatism is humble and anti-utopian. One can’t be conservative without applying the lessons of experience. I have learned my lesson.

  • JSobieski

    My point is simply that we should not let our disagreements get in the way on the things that we do agree.

    Nothing in my diary said “truce” or “choose”. It said, keep in mind that we want people to help us repeal Obamacare.

    If you can point to where my diary suggests that you have to choose one over the other, I would love to see it?

  • Doc Holliday

    I will choose the Constitution. Where salvation is concerned and learning about something bigger than man, I will choose the Bible. Getting them mixed up is a mistake.

  • JSobieski
  • aesthete

    libertarians could really get more done if they didn’t call conservatives closet theocrats or “statists” quite so much: Friedman made his points on government without having to insult anyone, and his relationship with Reagan was very productive because both were of the mind that the USSR was evil, and that attempts to replicate in small part its experience at home were, at best, misguided. Reagan had his disagreements with libertarians, but he was wise enough not to emphasize them. Milton Friedman had his disagreements with conservatives, but he was shrewd enough to downplay them. Both benefited tremendously — more than Murray Rothbard or his equivalents on the conservative side of the aisle. I’d rather have a Milton Friedman or a Ronald Reagan voting for and supporting me and mine than a mushy David Brooks type, and the way to make that happen is for both sides to not go out of their way to insult or to force the other side to give in.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    comments that may not agree 100%. But your main points are being heard and will have an effect on many. Thanks for writing this man.

  • lineholder

    Here’s the biggest problem I’ve had in how we have been approaching this so far.

    If we were at war with another country and our very survival depended on winning that war, would we take only one mode of attack? We might have 3 different modes of attack, i.e. by land, by sea, and by air. If we said “we will only attack by land”, what would happen is that 1) we put all our forces into one mode of attack, and 2) we leave ourselves wide open to let the enemy use the other modes of attack (that we could use but don’t) against us in winning the war.

    Of all the acts of foolishness that we could even possibly consider, limiting ourselves to one mode of attack would be the ultimate in foolishness right now. Yet that is what some divisions of our own battle force seem to be determined to accomplish.

    We each bring something of value into this. Let fiscal cons set forth info from the economic battle front. Social cons could present info from the societal battle front. Libertarians and constitutionalists could present info from the legal front, including how it might be possible for us to have greater success in winning the war in the long run by limiting some activities to a state or local level.

    Then as people come here, they have an opportunity to find more that they agree with that might appeal to them in joining the battle.

    What you have attempted to present is both just and fair. We can’t gut each other wide open, wounding our own forces, and expect to win the war. And I applaud your efforts on this.

  • redneck_hippie
  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    Including ideologies that just happen to have aims that conservatives agree with.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    I saw that conservatism works to maximize liberty, prosperity and national security for the most. And libertarianism is a part of that mix.

  • Scope

    I find it ironic that you are here, writing a diary, in essence saying that all Republicans/conservatives must fight the Obama administration, and all the Liberals that have enabled him, yet, without the slightest question you single handidly bashed the MD Republican candidate Christine O’Donnell. In primary season, while I don’t think you backed Castle, you went out of your way to bash O’Donnell. Now we have Chris Coons, the bearded marxist in Washington. That possibility, no, likelihood existed strongly while you bashed and trashed O’Donnell. In hindsight, would O’Donnell have been the better choice?

    Moving on to Mike Pence. You were so critical of him when the diaries about Pence came up. You wanted a governor, Pence didn’t have the necessary experience you have on your litmus test for candidates. Without question, Pence could have bridged the divide between the very same factions you are asking to hug each other today. But, he didn’t fit your definition of the perfect candidate.

    Now you are asking, begging all the conservatives to get along for the good of the country. Maybe if you removed your mostly unattainable litmus test, for the candidates you will approve of, would go a whole long long way to more unity. Your hue and cry is really meaningless for those of us that have read your posts.

  • redneck_hippie

    but the way I am reading “unity” has nothing to do with picking out our presidential candidate.

    That’s not the topic I am seeing here. What I am seeing here is a plea, yes. But a plea for focus on the enemy (Obama) instead of disparate factions within the GOP.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    with a lack of enthusiasm for Pence or O’Donnell, and I was a vocal supporter of both.

  • Finrod

    .

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    mikedevinelaw@yahoo.com?

    I have a message for you.

  • Scope

    It would have been a very unified position to back O’Donnell in the mid-terms. She may not have been the best candidate, but she would have voted with the Republicans, but rather we have a Marxist in Congress. You can call for unity all you want, with respect to CPAC, or the conservatives that are elected to Congress, where the final voice/vote lies, or you can go after those that will vote much better than the Marxist Coons. Isn’t unity what sobieski is calling for, as in getting Republicans elected to destroy the Obama administration, and the Liberals that have enabled him in Congress.

    If we are not unified in getting the best presidential candidate elected in 2012, we are sunk, however, do you really think that GOProud or the radical muslims at CPAC will turn out the vote if for example a Romney or Huckabee, God forbid, wind up being our nominee. Do you think the first libertarian would vote for either of them? Doubtful. So, why are we asking them to be a part of the equasion, and to be “unified” with them.

    The call for unity here, as I read it, means to acquiesce to anyone who is willing to vote to oust Obama, but is willing to vote for positions that are anathema to traditional conservative principles. Where does that crap get us?

  • redneck_hippie

    can’t answer for anyone else about candidates they would or wouldn’t support for the future. I can’t even answer those questions specifically for myself today. I especially am not interested in rehashes and recriminations.

  • bobmontgomery

    See my reply to gc above.

  • Scope

    after everything sobieski has posted here on Redstate, defending his libertarian brothers in arms, and, then saying he is not a libertarian. That is the height of dishonesty. I personally don’t give a dang if sobieski supports John Kerry, John McCain, or John Thune. If he supported those that would have been against Obamacare, in the primaries, that would be good for him. He didn’t. He used his purity test against O’Donnell, and at least in a small way supported Coons, who recently voted against the repeal of Obamacare. End of story. It appears that sobieski is into purity tests for candidates, and be danged if it destroys a candidate that would have actually been AGAINST Obamacare. This is nothing more than trying to take the moral high-ground. I am very familiar with those kinds of people/lawyers, thank you very much. I was told by a freakin lawyer that my aunt deserved the dignity to not be reduced to a wheelchair when she couldn’t stand on her own feet from the ravages of brain cancer, because the personal representative wanted to save the estates financial position. No sir, no thank you with the moral high-ground.

  • Scope

    to Leon’s rejoined diary against Clouthier asking almost the same thing as this diary is calling for. Clouthier wants a big hug fest at CPAC. sobieski wants a big hug fest here at Redstate. What’s the difference?

  • Doc Holliday

    I even checked my brain at the door for unity, actually more for victory. unity is not an in in itself, it is a means to a preferred. result.

  • pastisprolog

    n/c ( I had no idea either. I don’t twit, book faces or txt (LOL).

  • aesthete

    Scope, if you want to muse about libertarians and their propensity to eat babies and spit tar, so be it. If you want to make a big issue about myself and other libertarians having no moral compass, have at it — the statements you’ve made about libertarians are so over-the-top, that I doubt that a fair-minded person looking at them will give them much thought. However, you’ve called into question the character of one our regulars who deserves better, and someone new at RS might give take heed to these accusations, so let’s set the record straight: JSob has not lied once about whatever it is that’s got you so wound up.

    Here’s what you said: “He used his purity test against O?Donnell, and at least in a small way supported Coons, who recently voted against the repeal of Obamacare.” Completely untrue. From a diary written around that time, JSob had this to say: “I would suggest that 50% of the O?Donnell is not electable groud thinks she is too conservative for DE, and the other 50% (which includes me) think that she is just too flawed a candidate to win. I will support the winner either way. Heck, I tepidly support her in the primary.” He did just that after the primary, urging conservatives to support O’Donnell in the general.

    I know for a fact that JSob and myself disagree on the particulars or the Ground Zero Mosque, some aspects of foreign policy, social conservatism, and several other points within the conservative movement. He’s been very respectful in his engagement of myself, you and others he’s disagreed with, and he deserves the same respect — as well as an apology from you for either misreading him or willfully misrepresenting his position on O’Donnell.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • Scope

    your question. Will you be a little more specific? I also don’t twit, facebook or text. I guess I’m just an old fart that doesn’t need that technology to get my message across, at least here at RS, and on some other blogs.

  • Scope

    That comment doesn’t even deserve a response.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    test ourselves.

  • Doc Holliday
  • Scope

    non-stop comments that sobieski made with respect to O’Donnell. It is/was there for all to see. As I said, sobieski didn’t post in favor of Castle, but, with only O’Donnell and Castle in the primary race, and the insistent and never ending comments against O’Donnell, one can only come to one conclusion. Either he never saw or recognized the destruction from the only Liberal in the race, Coons, or he more so was against getting a Republican elected, because she was such a flawed candidate, that didn’t pass the purity test. I really don’t care what you believe or perceive, and, while sobieski couldn’t have taken O’Donnell down on his own, he for all intents and purposes was sitting right there with the likes of Rove and Krauthammer. Say what you will in defense of sobieski, no problem. It is hypocritical now to ask everyone to unite, when he very actively worked against a Senate candidate that would have voted for the repeal of Obamacare. If you want “unity” against Obamacare in particular, you don’t actively work against someone who could have helped with that endeavor.

    The libertarians scream about the “real conservatives” purity tests, yet it is without doubt that the libertarians who have the purity tests.

  • pastisprolog

    I live in PA, with a large and politically active libertarian population, whose unwillingness to vote for Santorum gave us Casey. And, nationally, who can forget all the votes Perot got that pushed Clinton into the White House.

    Did you ever find the answer to your question? It got unlinked from your question somehow and has been sitting near the bottom of the Melissa blog.

  • aesthete

    You’re flat-out lying about JSob as regards his posts concerning O’Donnell. He was not at all active in working against a Senate candidate, unless “tacitly critique during primaries” is the new definition of “work against”, in which case we’re all guilty. I’m done with this thread, and it’s a crying shame that you won’t apologize for your baseless smear.

  • pastisprolog

    That’s what you meant. My answer is at the bottom of this blog, but it points you to the Melessa blog. SORRY!!!!!

  • Doc Holliday

    an ideology in its own rite? :)

  • Scope

    every time I see anyone advocating for non-traditional conservative values. BTW, there is a bunch of us doing the same.

  • YnotNOW

    that we discuss (respectfully) among ourselves during the primaries, and then unite behind the nominees in the General. Bill Buckley’s axiom to vote for the most conservaive candidate (who has a chance of winning) in the primary, and then Republican in the General.

    Party trumps person nearly every time. It is not just a choice of “the lesser of two evils,” but a choice of what platform will provide the direction of the country.

    Any vote or support otherwise means a vote for Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, Barack Obama, and their agenda to fundamentally change what it means to be American.

  • thurman

    If we have more protest votes, third party betrayals, or people staying home in 2012 again pouting when they don’t get their nominee of choice, the Republic will be lost irrevocably for my lifetime

    I am a physician so obviously repealing Obamacare is my personal concern, and why I cannot let Obama stay in the WH at any cost in 2013.

    But there could potentially be 2-3 SCOTUS appointments for the next POTUS, and this could tip the balance of the court left again permanently if he’s reelected

    Among all the damage we will have to undo in 2013, I don’t feel there is enough urgency given to the need to have a conservative in the WH for the next slew of SCOTUS appointments that will come due next term.

    No matter who the rightfully elected nominee ends up being, I will support them hell or high water in 2012.

    This is the most important single election of my lifetime, and I won’t let purity or idealogic complaints or primary baggage let Obama do any more damage to our Republic