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China: the enemy well past the gate

This is not going to be a post full of links and facts. I became agitated by a tweet on twitter asserting that Donald Trump  was pretty much “full of it” when he declared China could produce a competitive fleet of aircraft to rival Boeing.

I’ve been there. China, that is. North, south east and west. From Beijing to Xian to Chongqing to Shanghai to Hong Kong. This is going to be a post of observations. First hand. And it ain’t pretty. And this was 2 years ago. Imagine what they’ve accomplished since. Vassar Bushmills, eat your heart out cuz I am gonna do an editorial.

I was there, in the plush hotel in Beijing when the “big one” hit. That devastating earthquake in 2008. It rocked the hotel 1200 miles from the epicenter. I turned on the news. All in Chinese. No good. Finally found CNN, 4 people died they reported. Our tour guide the next day told us FoxNews is not allowed in China, only CNN and then only in the tourist hotels. It was not until I came home 3 weeks later to find that 85 thousand people died. Yes, they tried their best to save people in the shanty towns and cardboard boxes, but then contrast that to below.

Shanghai, Hong Kong and Beijing are the power houses of the country. Beijing and Hong Kong financially, but Shanghai in industry and technology. The Communist hold over the citizens and the little pay they receive are readily apparent.  Families vie for their 9 year old boys to be taken into the service of Communism. They rely mostly on coal for energy and don’t care about raping the environment. I’m all in favor of using coal for energy but after seeing the Three Gorges Dam and how they killed millions of flora and fauna, displacing millions with no regard to the environment it’s a different matter there. China, you could have done much better.

Shanghai in appearance looks just like NYC with small homes interspersed within the skyscrapers. China has a work ethic which is unknown in the US because they are under the hold of Communism and have no entitlements like here in the US. I used to teach “English as a second language.”  Many of my students were Chinese, industry and technology. I asked them what would happen if the government-mandated “only one child per family” was not adhered to. Oh, one is shunned by the government. No pension, no retirement, you are a pariah.

In my visit to Beijing I needed some sunscreen because TSA in Chicago thought it was a weapon and took it from me. The manager of the Westin in Beijing personally escorted me to a pharmacy which was the only place he told me I could purchase sunscreen. It was $25 for a tiny, small tube. Can one imagine what birth control protection must cost in that country and how many babies are aborted by the coat-hangar/mail opener system??? Just to adhere to government mandates??

I visited the silk factories. Girls at the age of 6, 7 or 8 are put into service to make silk rugs for the tourists, at little or no pay. It takes them a year and a half to make these exquisite rugs which the government in turn sells to the tourists for $4-5 thousand dollars. I’ve seen the factories where they can churn out transistors, batteries, radios faster than Ford in Detroit can make a carburetor.

Right before Christmas a diarist here advocated “buy American” which I am all in favor of, however:

I got curious. I have a Blackberry and pulled the back. Made in Canada by RIM. OK, good deal. But the battery, the DC charger and the car charger are made in China. Not much good without the accessories. We had a devastating tornado here in June 2 miles from my house. We barely escaped. Five people died. I bought a weather alert radio for myself, my parents and my kids which would wake us up if there was a tornado. Works great. We’ve been to the basement several times. But made, you guessed it. China.

I took 8 Chinese domestic flights. Yes, at least at the time they did use Boeings. And the service was like it was here in the 70′s. Flight attendants dressed to the 9′s and food and liquor included at no extra charge.

I’ve heard jokes all week a la “Horton hears a Hu.” Except Hu is no dummy. And neither should we be. I believe China is absolutely capable of making an aircraft to rival Boeing.

Don’t underestimate China. They have 1.6 billion people ready, willing and able to take on the US. And they put people into service at 5, 6, or 7 years of age. Five times as many workers as here. And with them being our largest creditor stakes are extremely high.

My friends, the “enemy” is NOT at the gate. It is already well past the gate, it’s over the threshold and inside the front door.

What remains to be seen is how we fight it. Freshmen Congress, are you ready?

Crossposted at Conservative Outlooks

Crossposted at Procinct.net

COMMENTS

  • penguin2

    I

  • JadedByPolitics

    I knew the crazy had hit the fan. We pay pennies at Walmart etc. (no I am not picking on Walmart) because they have children working in factories in China to do what we should be doing here as adults MAKING STUFF! Donald Trump is on the money everytime he says China mocks us and has no respect for us, why should they? they do what they want when they want like early 1900′s America. We now have unions and the environmentalists to take us down from the inside/out while China rises. I want a President who will not allow China to rape us or the environment and continue to rise…STAND UP, be a man or woman and put the skids to the insanity that is Communist China!

  • lineholder

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704754304576096002767228880.html?mod=WSJ_hp_LEFTWhatsNewsCollection

    It was posted on Drudge this morning. Note this comment:

    “The decision by Bank of China is the latest move by China to allow the yuan, whose value is still tightly controlled by the government, to become an international currency that can be used for trade and investment.”

    • ladyimpactohio

      All I get is a bunch of html garbage. I don’t see it on Drudge. Doesn’t surprise me one iota.

      • lineholder
    • http://www.redstate.com/etcartman Kenny Solomon

      Open a savings account and the cash isn’t put in the branch’s vault. It’s sent in one of those drive-thru vacuum cylinders straight through the center of the earth and comes up in China’s version of Fort Knox.

      I know – silly depiction. It can’t happen here. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

      My favorite part of the article:

      The transaction is expected to be carefully scrutinized by U.S. regulators, including the Committee on Foreign Investment in the U.S., known as CFIUS, because of the state-controlled nature of the Chinese bank. A previous deal by a Chinese bank to acquire a bank in the U.S. was rejected by regulators. “It is going to be a long process,” a person familiar with the matter said.

      Carefully scrutinized” = The ‘nudge’ has already been signed sealed and delivered. Probably long before last week.

      It’s going to be a long process.” = Give it about three hours into the business day tomorrow (Monday 24 January). A bit longer if they break more than twice for smokes and coffee.

      How about the obvious next step of simply buying the big banks ? They’ll make offers that can’t be refused.

      It’s really not that complicated. We owe them trillions and short of saying “margin called”, this is one of the fastest ways they can get it back,

      • Menlo

        That’s oversimplifying the situation.

        Nonetheless, the best solution to that problem would be to take all the American corporate executives and business owners who chose China and send them on a slow boat into exile to “work off” what is “owed.” Though it may not sound like it, I’m very serious with that proposal.

        • voicefromthevoid

          of either go to China for your production needs or go out of business it’s, to say the least, shortsighted to blame execs and business owners. Wanna send someone on a slow boat? make your pick carefully then.

          • Menlo

            I know fully well they have plenty of alternatives, and I personally think many would do a lot better for themselves elsewhere. Even if they did not however, I would blame them just as much for not choosing to go out of business.

            Would you have said the same if technology had not made slavery unnecessary for business?

            They are cruel and callous, and the whole lot of them need to go on a slow boat.

          • voicefromthevoid

            “blame them just as much for not choosing to go out of business. ”

            Gee! may I blame you for not abandoning your job and going to live in the woods? Business is like life, survivers win.

            “if technology had not made slavery unnecessary” – really? Then why socialists are trying to resurrect slavery as the means of their business? Slavery is about power, it has nothing to do with technology and or business – that’s the answer.

            OTOH, everyone must live in the reality. If slavery is a fact of the reality then one must pursue his/her goals within that reality, not within some imaginary fairy tale world.

            “They are cruel and callous, and the whole lot of them need to go on a slow boat.” – looks like excerpt from communist textbook to me. And I’m an expert on communist textbooks mind you.

      • E Pluribus Unum

        Dude, my condolences on your mom.. She raised a good kid.

        • http://www.redstate.com/etcartman Kenny Solomon
  • NeoKong

    They’re in the kitchen eating our lunch.
    Obama says “Help yourselves. I’ll be golfing if you need me”

    • E Pluribus Unum

      Or on an overseas junket with 77 jets, Or at the Super Bowl. Oh wait, DA BEARS LOST. Never mind that last one.

  • izoneguy

    Chinese Pianist Plays Propaganda Tune at White House
    US humiliated in eyes of Chinese by song used to inspire anti-Americanism

    http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/content/view/49822/

    Lang Lang the pianist says he chose it. Chairman Hu Jintao recognized it as soon as he heard it. Patriotic Chinese Internet users were delighted as soon as they saw the videos online. Early morning TV viewers in China knew it would be played an hour or two beforehand. At the White House State dinner on Jan. 19, about six minutes into his set, Lang Lang began tapping out a famous anti-American propaganda melody from the Korean War: the theme song to the movie

  • Menlo

    Like China’s government, everyone in our government will do what is best for China. By failing to call for an embargo or similar trade restrictions, that is what they do. The same goes for anyone else.

    I cannot fathom how so many people can seriously believe or behave as though the Chinese government is not quite as bad as the Nazis. I don’t know if it is naivete or evil.

    I don’t necessarily buy American, but I never buy Chinese. I spend a long time looking for many things, and I will do without others.

    Anyway, it’s safe to say that just about everyone in Congress (including Republicans) and the executive branch wants what is best for China.

    • leonidus2010

      “Like China

  • littlehouse18

    It was on the local new radio today. The gist was, if you want yourchildren to be employable, have them learn Chinese. I guess we need to be able to take orders from our new masters. Sickening.

    • Menlo

      In terms of the opportunity cost, it is of greater advantage for the Chinese for them to learn English. It is always going to be cheaper for Americans to use translators from China who have learned English.

      I think the word “we” is misused. The Chinese are not my “masters,” and I will not do anything they want.

  • secretp1nk0

    Of course, if one lives in China then the Chinese state is absolutely terrifying. Jailing/executing dissidents, widespread censorship, selection of leadership by a corrupt oligarchy, etc. But they present no serious threat to us.

    They can’t build a jet engine that works. Period. They buy almost all of their jet engines from Russia, and Russia isn’t that great at building them either. Their Navy is expanding, but it remains relatively small and it is regionally contained. They have some nukes, but nothing that even remotely rivals our stockpiles. MAD worked on the USSR, and it works infinitely better on China: before they could get one warhead across the Pacific China would look like the surface of the sun. They present no significant military threat at this time.

    It is true that they own about 20% of our foreign owned debt (only about 44% of our debt is foreign owned). If they really wanted, they could create economic problems for us. But they know very well that if they were to use our debt as a weapon aimed at our economy we could destroy their economy overnight. Say we impose a 100% tariff on all imports from China. Demand for their goods in the US would plummet to a fraction of what it is now, and China would instantly lose about 1/5 of its export market. It would be on its knees in days. They present a mild economic threat at this time.

    The primary threat we face right now is our ludacris trade deficit. It contributes substantially to unemployment (actually, if you live in the rust belt it is THE reason for unemployment) and to our budget deficit (lost tax revenue). If we want to make stuff, someone’s gonna have to buy it. Ask any major manufacturer why they aren’t building factories. The answer will be insufficient demand. If we want to get rid of our trade deficit (the single greatest threat to America’s international standing) we are going to have to export. China and India are the prime candidates.

    I would like a bit more focus on human rights, but all-in-all Obama is getting this about right at the talks.

    • E Pluribus Unum

      Are you serious about any of this, or are you just an Obamaton?

      Good grief.

    • aesthete

      You’re 110% correct: China has been trying to build several domestic industries from scratch, including software and airplanes, for years to absolutely no avail. Russia holds veto power over all of China’s aircraft, including the rather underwhelming J-20. They are at much greater risk of damaging their economies due to us leaving than we are to due to their holding of treasury securities: companies would already have left China for other third-world countries if China would let its currency float.

      Quite frankly, this sort of nonsense was spoken of Japan, as well: China’s failure will be for similar reasons, and will be more devastating when it occurs (esp because of its one-child policy). Unsurprisingly, countries only prosper in spite of dictators and government control, not because of the: in China’s case, comeuppance for its industrial policy will come sooner or later, but it will come. At the moment, and in the near to mid future, China does not pose an especially large threat to the US: it is a regional threat and we should watch out for a war instigated by China when the sh*t hits the fan, but we shouldn’t treat it as an equal any more than we should the decrepit successor state to the Soviet Union.

    • http://www.conservative-outlooks.com ladyimpactohio

      “China now has the world’s largest supercomputer, but we are still way ahead.”

      Oxymoron

  • conservativecurmudgeon

    China is one of the most rapidly aging societies on the planet (-with the forced abortion horrors), and a culture without youth will soon not have a culture.

    But, China is also trying to create some sort of weird hybrid between open markets and closed societies, and that ultimately will fail. So, too, will be the problematic nature of 1 out of every 2 males being unable to find dates, or start families. This will create a tremendous burden on the social fabric that likely will be taken out on it’s urban centers and on it’s boarder neighbors.

    China isn’t the problem. Our policy vis-a-vis China IS. If there is one place where Obama diverges from Jimmuh Cahtuh, it is that at least Jimmuh tried to at least give the APPEARANCE that United States trade policies would be linked to human rights. But, when you have a Marxist in charge of things, human rights don’t exist.

    Only the agenda exists. We may have forgotten Tienanmen Square, but the Chinese haven’t, even if the oligarchs have done their best to suppress it (while in China next time, try Googling–or whatever search-engine they have– the term, and see how long it takes to get arrested)

    • lineholder

      in relation to China for several years now. If it requires 2.4 people (taking into account deaths, infertility, etc.) to repopulate a society, at some point their one-child-per-family moratorium will have to change.

      They’ve taken capitalistic free-trade mechanisms and run with it in recent years to boost the income into their society, but they’ve done it in such a way that actually increases human right abuses.

      Sooner or later, it will crash down on them.

    • leonidus2010

      “or whatever search-engine they have

  • pompadour

    Tried to recommend it, but after pressing the button four times and not seeing my handle appear, I’m apparently out of luck. Not sure why. Worked on some other posts just now. But suffice it to say that I appreciate your firsthand perspective. Thanks!

    • ladyimpactohio
  • SoulEspresso

    The article states that:
    1. The Chinese withhold the truth about national disasters from their people
    2. They don’t allow unfavorable media outlets within their country
    3. They heavily rely on child labor
    4. They treat the environment horribly in pursuit of energy
    5. Their one-child policy has probably resulted in terrible expense for birth control on one hand and a lot of amateur abortions on the other
    6. They’re taking us to the cleaners via their exports/our imports
    7. Their flight attendants are well-dressed

    All this leads to the conclusion that
    8. They are capable of building modern aircraft
    9. They are highly motivated
    10. Already defeating us and therefore
    11. We should be afraid of them?

    Seems like a bunch of non sequiturs to me.

    I’m not trying to be obtuse because I share the writer’s concern about the motivation and education level of our people, the declining American work ethic, etc. But everything except the trade imbalance seems to provide evidence that we still have a number of advantages. I hate that we owe them all this money, but as another poster pointed out, if they call that in, it hurts them more than it does us.

    • http://www.conservative-outlooks.com ladyimpactohio

      this was not going to be about facts and figures. Just personal observations.

      Thanks for your comment and recommendation.

      • http://www.plumbbobblog.com Plumb_Bob

        You titled your observations “The Enemy is Well Past the Gate,” which means you consider China a dire and immediate threat. What SoulEspresso is pointing out is that your observations, though interesting, do not in any way support your title.

        It is true that the Chinese are hostile; they’re doing things to prepare for war with the US, and we do need to remain vigilant about these. However, the likelihood that China will move against the US in any direct way is very small. They have no interest in attacking the US militarily; we’re separated by a very, very large ocean. They cannot attack us economically unless we let them, for which reason the correct response is not to fret about China, but to restore the US’ economic sanity.

        The large debt we owe them makes them our ALLY; if we crash, they lose trillions of dollars of their money. It is thus in their interest if we PROSPER. Why more people don’t get this is beyond me.

        And besides that, China’s days as a world power are numbered, and the number is a small one. Lawrence Solomon’s article yesterday at the National Post (http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2011/01/22/lawrence-solomon-china%E2%80%99s-fall/)explained one of the reasons why: the nation is corrupt from top to bottom. They will soon suffer the fate of the Soviet Union. Plus, their abortion policy has sealed their demographic fate; no nation can sustain an economy without a growing population to keep it running. Thanks to “1 child per family,” their economy will collapse within the next 50 years no matter what else they do.

        But, it’s good to know one’s opponents. So thanks for the observations.

        • http://www.conservative-outlooks.com ladyimpactohio

          of China taking us over industrial-wise and technological-wise. I’m glad there is a healthy discussion re: the monetary end.

          As the example of the Blackberry noted above. I would love to have every one here post where their cell phones were made and the batteries and accessories. Something most of us aren’t willing to do without. I doubt that anyone with a BB is going to toss it in the river because the batteries & charger were made in China. And even if one did want to replace with a “made in America” phone I am betting it would be difficult if not impossible to find.

          • leonidus2010

            At least some Blackberries might be assembled in the US….

            Forget about Apple I am surpised all this love of Apple noone is looking at where they are mking this stuff…

            iPod, iPhone and iPad all “Made in China”

            Apple has also sold out the US and Americans.

            Might as well be China Apple, ChiPod, ChiPhone and ChiPad

            Steve Jobs is a traitor

          • leonidus2010

            Matthew 12:30 (King James version)

            “He that is not with me is against me”

            Obiosusly Steve Jobs and Apple is NOT with us (Americans) therfore he / they are also our enemy.

          • aesthete

            it is far more likely that, should the US go to war with China or otherwise engage in hostilities with them, your Blackberry’s price will go up somewhat and that its components will read “made in Brazil/[insert third world country]“, instead. It would be an inconvenience to the US, but it would absolutely devastate China to not have a source of consumption for their goods.

        • leonidus2010

          The Chinese government is already decoupling from the US Dollar and are reducing their expouse to US debt etc so the Arabs and OPEC can eliminate the USD as reserve currency and move towarsd a basket of Yen, Euro, Yuan and Gold.

          http://www.nuwireinvestor.com/articles/why-china-is-selling-billions-in-us-treasuries-55891.aspx?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+nuwireinvestor%2Flatestnews+(NuWire+Investor%3A+Latest+News)

        • conservativecurmudgeon

          “If you owe the bank a thousand dollars, the bank owns you. If you owe the bank a billion dollars, you own the bank.”

    • http://thesandsinstitute.org Vassar Bushmills

      …is dangerous.

      • SoulEspresso

        Or, to use a different metaphor, such societies have a habit of cutting their own heads off. Even if they make millions of people miserable in the meantime.

      • aesthete

        They sure are predictable, though: it’s a lot easier to anticipate China’s moves than those of a country with a broken moral compass (like N Korea and Iran), and as long as a threat is relatively predictable, responses to said threat can be formed based on reasonable expectations, rather than non-specific hysteria.

  • bobmontgomery

    ….anything from the demise of the former Soviet Union?

  • marshmom

    your religion freely; unless, of course, it is worship of the state of Communism.

    Thanks, LIO, I’ve never been to China and probably wouldn’t if my life depended on it, but it’s always a learning experience to hear from someone who has.

    The scary part is that not many people know the truth about how things are in China. China, along with our help, is trying to put a fuzzy face on Communism instead of showing the truth. Ever notice how the History channel never has enough shows about Nazis, but never ANY about Mao, Stalin, Lenin, or the like. Gee………..wonder why that is?? (sarcasm)

  • http://www.redstate.com/etcartman Kenny Solomon

    A report from The Associated Press hosted at The El Paso Times.

    Beijing (AP)

  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    China will probably overtake us soon in productive manufacturing capacity. But, well who would have thought otherwise? After all there are a billion of them.

    Once they were allowed a level of economic freedom it was inevitable that they would become a major player in the world. But this engagement in the world also constrains them. They cannot act as rogue players when they are reliant on markets and trade.

    The retrograde party apparatus will come under continued strain. I am not saying that they are bound to develop democracy, but I am saying that they are bound to change in some way or the other.

    I am worried about all of this talk of the eeevil Chinese and the specter of tariffs and a trade war. That is the LAST thing our already weak economy needs.

    I am also worried about a belligerent attitude towards a nation that has not really done anything negative on the world stage for a long time. Unless you count having trade and technology relations with Iran, and in that case you have to also condemn some of our European allies.

    Are the Chinese building up their armed forces and their military technology? Yes, absolutely. they still spend a much smaller percentage on that than we do.

    Maybe it is us who need to change. Like fer instance, stop trying to right every wrong around the world or trying to maintain a military presence in over sixty nations. And maybe cutting our spending and stop financing our huge deficits with bond sales to other nations would enhance our security?

    Maybe even, (I shudder to think of it) Actually trying to work with the Chinese government, as bad as it is, to get some thing accomplished, like cutting down on high seas piracy and working to control terrorism in the pacific. Who knows, we might find that some of our interests coincide.

    • Menlo

      China won’t change. It will continue to do as it pleases, and American politicians, executives, and business owners will continue to bow down to them, cater to their every whim, and excuse their every “mistake.”

      We actually need a full-scale embargo. The economy needs to take a backseat to the vile Nazi dictatorship that is causing harm beyond its borders too by harming consumers and the environment worldwide.

      It may not be your enemy, but it is mine. Short of total ignorance, I don’t see how anyone with a shred of moral decency or integrity could put money first.

      • leonidus2010

        AMEN!!!

        The Chinese government has publicy been involved in industrial espianoge against US, Japanese and European companies and has engaged in Cyber warfare (viruses, trojans, worms etc) against both US government and corporate websites. Note: Google pulled out of China despite the market potential becasue they felt the risk and loses due to state sponsored cyber terrorism from the Chinese government and Baidu their “official” search engine had gone too far

      • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

        “China won

        • Menlo

          Though I think it would benefit America’s economy in the long-run, I don’t care what damage it does. They are a danger to America as well, as long as business owners and executives are doing business with them. Remember the tainted heparin that killed people here, not to mention the environmental waste to which they contribute. They also have a centuries-old culture of counterfeit.

          I know they won’t change based on history and study of current events and business dealings there. Perhaps more importantly, I also know based on the Chinese business culture. It’s nothing like our own, and it is not like most others. It’s also simple logic. What’s going to make them change? They know just how much corner-cutting and consumer safety damage they can do to make it the most cost-effective option for the sick American scum who choose to do business with them.

          China is not like other countries or regimes, so you can’t make that comparison. It has a very different culture and a different regime. This one absolutely will not change, and the belief that it might, if genuine, is borne out of ignorance.

          As to changing the world, you are correct with regard to military force and invasion. In this instance, you are not. It is most definitely in America’s interest to impose an embargo on this vile dictatorship and exile or severely punish the Americans who choose them for business.

          • aesthete

            the countries in S East Asia, pre-Meiji Restoration Japan, are endemically and unchangeably collectivist? China is directly comparable to other countries, precisely because it acts just like a self-interested country would on many issues. Considering that it *did* change from being a bloodthirsty Maoist state to becoming a merely pedestrian dictatorship (not to mention the countless changes to China since the end of the dynasties last century), there’s absolutely no proof to your assertion that China is a uniquely unchangeable entity.

            Menlo, I really enjoy your postings on abortion and other issues, but it’s not even funny how illogical your posts on this issue are.

          • Menlo

            It’s a lot more than its government that is cause for an embargo (though it certainly is a bloodthirsty dictatorship on par with Nazi Germany). Its business culture is different, and those cultural problems are not based on a lack of understanding or knowledge; they are intentional. Chinese imports are neither better made nor safer than they ever were. Nor has the incidence of counterfeit dropped.

            They will continue to “cut corners” and endanger the safety (and intellectual property) of Americans, while the business owners and executives beg their forgiveness for bringing to light any problems.

            A business that cannot produce something honestly, ethically, and safely should not be allowed by law to market it.

          • aesthete

            Considering that Chinese businessmen and emigrants throughout the Pacific, SE Asia, Oceania, and the Americas (including the US) have produced quality goods without the problems that you mention (counterfeiting, shoddy), it should be readily apparent that those factors are largely structural in nature, not cultural: other countries with very weak property and intellectual rights have similar problems. In addition, you are begging the question with the following statement: “A business that cannot produce something honestly, ethically, and safely should not be allowed by law to market it.” There is no objective standard of any of these things, as they are all rated on a gradient. The standards that you have selected are arbitrary and would not have allowed any of the goods produced at the start of the Industrial Revolution to make it to market. People will not buy goods that don’t meet their safety or reliability criterion: the fact that they (and businesses) do indicates that some people value the lower cost of Chinese goods over the increased reliability, etc provided by more expensive alternatives.

            (This is all laying aside the fact that there are literally hundreds of peoples and subcultures within China that all differ from one another enormously, of course: I will assume that you’re talking about the archetypal Han Chinese here.)

          • Menlo

            If the lack of change in China itself is not enough, I would recommend for a more thorough understanding Paul Midler’s “Poorly Made in China.” You are being very naive.

            Again, other countries are not comparable. Neither are the Chinese living here, and neither is history for that matter. Those analogies are deeply flawed and involved very different circumstances. I will say that if the humane treatment of workers would have thwarted the Industrial Revolution, you bet I would have. I still think America needs a reduced work schedule.

            It seems China is best at innovating new ways to cut corners and cheat people. That has been and will continue to be a factor in their economic growth.

            The supply and demand approach you favor fails to account for significant market failures and public endangerment that demand government intervention. Meanwhile, try selling your ideas to the people who died from Chinese-tainted heparin.

          • aesthete

            We don’t agree: you’ve provided no evidence for your claim that the Chinese government, people, or culture are stagnant, or for the claim that dishonesty/unreliability/shoddiness are endemic to Chinese culture. I’ve provided counterexamples to both of those claims, and I don’t have the time or inclination to watch a movie when you have not provided a single argument from that movie that would compel me or change my opinion on trade or the nature of China. I look forward to encountering you on threads that have to do with abortion, where your viewpoint is eminently sensible.

          • Menlo

            I have not seen you provide any example of improvement in China or in the things they produce. I mentioned the tainted (and yes, shoddy and dishonest) products people around the world keep getting. You don’t find it in “single events” but accumulated over time. Think lead paint, baby formula, drywall, electrical failures, and toothpaste. Think things that break immediately after a warranty or return period. The list goes on. I never recommended a movie but a book that provides many more examples of the reality of doing business in China. It’s not against Chinese trade; anyone who does business there will tell you it’s the truth. The examples have been documented and reported over time. They aren’t accumulated in one concise statistic. That’s how they get by with what they are doing! No one wants to take the time, and that explains the ignorance and naivete.

            The country employs vile labor practices, lives in a brutal and murderous dictatorship, provides tainted garbage to Americans (usually with no cost savings to them) that contributes to more environmental waste and many American deaths, and they arguably contribute to a loss of American jobs. Add to that the fact they have no natural resources other countries lack, and they routinely counterfeit and fake whatever they can. It won’t change because no one will make them change as a condition for business. If all that together is not enough to convince anyone, nothing is.

          • aesthete

            My mind isn’t good for anything right now but one-liners, and I don’t think that a debate on trade deserves cute one-liners as much as it does cautious thought. In brief, the products and services provided by the large ethnically Chinese minorities throughout SE Asia, the US and Latin American countries, and Oceania are of good quality, and there has unfortunately been no iteration of the mainland Chinese government with strong property rights to prove conclusively that reliability is or is not cultural in origin. That said, Hong Kong (and to a lesser extent Macau) is a good counterexample of an area in mainland China with strong property rights which provides high-end services and products. As GC might say, more later. Be warned: I will not agree with you on trade, but I have an open mind regarding the attributes of Chinese culture.

          • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

            and quite frankly a lot of prejudice backed up by no facts. Korean and Japanese culture, and Indonesian also were partly descended from Chinese culture and yet they are all good business partners.

            But even if what you say were true, it does not follow that we would be better off with an embargo. The problem you say with harmful products is really just a few cases blown up by a 24 hour news cycle and they were quickly addressed.

            If we did stop trading with China they would retaliate and dump our currency and the rest of the world would move in and sell them the things we are selling them, and we sell them a lot. It would not change China for the better and probably for the worse.

            I suspect that what you really want is protectionism, also not a good idea. Now I do think we should make them honor our trade agreements, but that only requires leadership with a spine.

            I really don’t know what else to say except that there seems to exist in the minds of some people a deep desire to always have a big bad boogieman out there. But so far your arguments have no basis in evidence and sound a lot like the “yellow peril” arguments of the past.

      • aesthete

        China (and Vietnam, Siam, S East Asia, and many other autocratic states) got better only after US engagement and trade deals. States like Cuba, OTOH, have remained terrible. Seems to me that the moral position is to allow outside forces to change a regime through incentives, not isolating them and hoping that they get better on their own.

    • Common_Cents

      they peg their currency, removing the check and balance to trade imbalances.

      They use the CCC certification to blatantly steal all technology.

      The problem is, we are doing NOTHING about it so we are complicit in that regard.

      Human rights abuses are hidden via controlled media.

      Their command and control approach can allow them to be long term strategic. Watch out when they gain much more leverage. They’ll exert it quickly. Tying up energy deals, deals on raw materials with many countries. they will slowly try and replace US exports and treasury holdings. Once they are disconnected from the US the crap will hit the fan and they’ll become much more blatant and aggressive.

      • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

        It DOES mean we need leadership that will stand up and enforce trade treaties.

        A trade treaty that one side routinely breaks is worthless.

      • aesthete

        That worked out well for the Soviets, didn’t it? Economists much smarter than you or I made the same statement vis a vis the Soviet economy and its capacity for investment, but it didn’t work out too well: largely because (unsurprisingly) bloodthirsty regimes and their yes-men are much worse at anticipating future trends and efficiently distributing goods than actors in the free market, who must accurately anticipate future trends to survive in the market.

        • Common_Cents

          Not in the soviet sense of making X pairs of shoes for 5 yr supply but tying up raw material/petroleum supplies, using CCC to gain IP, peg currency etc…

          Sounds like they’ve done a good chunk of misallocation of capital internally and will have a recoil soon, not to mention inflationary pressures we are now seeing in other countries. People get cranky if they can’t afford to eat.

  • http://erickbrockway.wordpress.com/ Erick Brockway

    I went to Target to find a new one, and after walking all over the place finally found them in sporting goods. Stanley, Thermos brand, all made in China now.
    Sigh.
    Time to bury my last-ever made in the good ol’ USA Thermos…

  • http://www.redstate.com/etcartman Kenny Solomon

    Courtesy of The Jawa Report and Mike Pechar.

    http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/206016.php

    (Beijing, China) The annual meeting of China’s propaganda ministers was held earlier this month and tersely reported by Xinhua News Agency. Three leaders attended — Communist Politburo Member Li Changchun, Propaganda Department Minister Liu Yunshan and Dean of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences Chen Kuiyuan.

    Chen Kuiyuan is strongly associated with China

  • ssshannon1026

    Is that we no longer possess the moral autority to legitimately contain them. The chinese are perfectly justified in wanting to protect themselves from what passes for moral authority in the modern west. Frankly, I don’t blame them for becoming more biligerant. Its not like the unquestionable superiority our society had over Naze Germany and Imperial Japan. I look at China and I look at my own society and I am hard pressed to say which one I feel most threatened by or which one I would want to own the future. I think future generations would be just as poorly served by a future controlled by what the west has become as by what China has become.

  • C.S. McCoy

    Complaints about the trade deficit are silly. Yes, Joe Laborer’s company may close the factory he works at and ship it overseas. But guess what? If someone is willing to do the same job as you for less then maybe you don’t deserve “your” job (as if a job is property that belongs to you). Technological innovation has the same effect, but we don’t decry the companies that replace workers with machines that are considerably less costly. Efficiency is a good thing and increases our standards of living.

    Cheaper labor costs mean cheaper products. That means American consumers have more money to spend/invest in other areas. And what happens when they spend/invest in these other areas? New jobs appear! In the past 50 years, these new jobs have primarily taken the form of service sector jobs or jobs that require specialized skills. If “your” job was shipped overseas to China, don’t blame the Chinese, blame yourself for being less productive than your foreign counterpart. Instead of complaining, find a way to make yourself more valuable.

    Let’s see what happens if we raise tariffs on Chinese goods. Sure, manufacturers might relocate here and employ American workers. However, that benefit is greatly outweighed by the higher prices American consumers pay. We would now have to pay more for the same goods. That means consumers can’t buy as much and therefore their standard of living decreases. This is exactly what happened during the Great Depression. Protectionism doesn’t work.

    And the talk of China attacking the US is laughable. We are their largest trading partner. Their economy would crumble if trade suddenly halted because of a war. Do you think the Chinese really want to deal with millions upon millions of suddenly unemployed people? The population is already restless and the leaders certainly don’t want a threat to their power. Economic stability (and stability in general) is what they want. Revolutions, especially those in China, are rarely pretty. Plus, in a war they certainly wouldn’t be getting back the money we owe them. They don’t pose a threat to our sovereignty and it’s not in their interest to do so. Our economies are strongly intertwined, so both of us have an incentive to keep tensions cool. This is the major difference between present-day China and Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, and the Soviet Union.

    Now, if either of our economies were to collapse that might change the relationship, but the best thing we can do about that is to make the necessary economic changes here at home. By maintaining a strong trade relationship with China both of us will be forced to work out any differences peacefully, unless we’re both willing to face the severe economic consequences.

    • aesthete

      As many have already noted, the vast majority of the manufacturing jobs “lost” in the US are due to technological changes and changes in domestic policy, not trade with China. Simply put, it is much cheaper to employ a machine to do the job of a man in most circumstances, and conditions that make labor expensive to hire and keep, and that make it more difficult to get rid of, are only making manufacturing more capital-intensive. Government and government-backed unions have played a large part in creating these conditions, and until that changes, then neither will the job market for manufacturing. Bhagwati Jagdish has written extensively on the subject, and while I don’t agree with all of what he says, his book “In Defense of Globalization” makes a very good case for trade with third-world countries.

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