RS Roundtable: Suicide at the Council of Elrond


An anniversary has recently passed. On October 25, 3018 Third Age, Elrond Half-elven, son of Eärendil of the line of Thingol, bearer of Vilya the great Ring of Power, made a critical decision for his people.

Rather than allow the last remaining outposts of the Elves at Imladris and Lothlórien continue without disruption from the outside world, he chose to invest the Elves in a grand global fight to rob Sauron of his power permanently, in the process destroying the Rings of Power of his own and Galadriel’s. At the Council of Elrond, a Fellowship was constructed, representing Elves, Men, Wizards, Dwarves, and Halflings, all united by a supposed common cause.

But where are the Elves now? All gone West. Was this great act of foreign policy by Elrond a self-destructive act? Would Elves not have been better off allowing Sauron to remain, acting as a counterweight to the Men, and preventing Men from being an undisputed hyperpower in Middle-earth?

More below…

AcademicElephant: What Elrond failed to recognize is that coalitions are fluid and should be assembled not simply for the sake of having a grand coalition, but to address the issue at hand. Really, what of substance did the dwarves contribute besides the disastrous and greedy foray to Moria that re-woke the Balrog? And what good was gained by having two men, not to mention four Haflings? Cut both of those in half and you eliminate the dead weight and have a leaner, more agile force that can get the job done efficiently and get the heck out of there.

Moe Lane: Here we go: blatant anti-Khazadism masquerading as policy analysis, yet again.

Khazad-dum is Dwarvish. Khazad-dum has always been Dwarvish. The Orcish invasion of our ancestral homeland - and note that the speaker does not mention the proven and notorious links between the Orcish “race” and that of the Elves - was an unjustified and illegal action that was replied to by the nations of the West with nothing more than empty condemnations from the Council of the Wise. Of course, what they also do not mention is that the mere presence of the Balrog itself can be directly attributed to Elvish incompetence after the First Age: if there had been a proper post-war cleanup, that monster never would gotten away in the first place.

And if we want to talk about Dwarves and “substance”… fine. Where was the “substance” from the other races of the West when we rescued Eriador in the War of the Dwarves and Orcs? Where was the “substance” when the great Wyrms devastated our holds and manufacturing centers? Where was the “substance” when we dared retrieve a portion of our ancestrial lands from Smaug? Yes, you hear such marvelous Faerie tales about the Battle of the Five Armies… but nobody mentions that the original goal of the other four armies was to smash the Dwarves utterly.

For far too long we have let the Elves dominate academia, and for far too long their inherent bias has been corrupting the debate. We stand against the Shadow; we stand against the Shadow better than Men or Elves, in fact. But we will no longer remain silent.

PS: I find this instinctive lumping of us together with “Halflings” - charming name to call them, by the way - to be exceptionally racist.

Neil Stevens: Uh huh. Of course. Nobody can ever criticize the Dwarves. But look, have you ever noticed what happens when the axes of the Dwarves come to a place?

Beleriand sinks after Dwarven outposts in the Ered Luin show up.

The Misty Mountains become a haven for evil raiders when the Dwarven greed for fossil minerals causes them to do grave environmental damage to the entire region, and create the worst failed state in the north. Elves use sustainable amounts of mithril; the Dwarves have a greater mithril footprint than anyone else in Arda.

The Shire, previously quiet, gets international attention after twelve Dwarves go recruiting for their ‘quest’, eventually needing Scoured, and of course we all know what happened that one day in Esgaroth, after those same Dwarves came to visit.

I wonder if Gandalf was optimistic in setting up that new Kingdom under the Mountain.

Look: It’s not my fault that Eru Illúvatar didn’t create the Dwarves. All are part of the Song of Creation, but some people just have chips on their shoulders about it. But I guess that makes me racist, eh?

Moe Lane:

“Look: It’s not my fault that Eru Illúvatar didn’t create the Dwarves. All are part of the Song of Creation, but some people just have chips on their shoulders about it. But I guess that makes me racist, eh?”

You know, some of us don’t base our policy positions on a literal interpretation of the Simarillion. Particularly since the pro-Elvish bias of that text is obvious to any disinterested observer.

Dan McLaughlin: I think we are overlooking the fact that hidebound elvish leadership
was too busy fighting the last war (the inaptly named “Last Alliance”)
to recognize until the last possible minute the transformative role of
air power (despite its successful application in.the Battle of the
Five Armies, which Rivendell and Gondor ignored because it did not
directly involve their forces).

AcademicElephant: Now now, don’t be so hard on the leadership. They had to fight the war with the alliance they had. Years of neglect and complacency on the part of MEN to the military infastructure of Gondor resulted in this situation. You can’t just cede strategic locations like Osgiliath to the enemy and think he will be satisfied and stay home. Weakness is provocative.

Moe Lane: If the Elves were so worried about the Gondorian strategic situation, why didn’t they step up to take on the burden themselves? Oh, right, they were off playing isolationist among the mallorn-trees. Typical.

Leon H. Wolf: Oh, sure, blame this all on the humans. I suppose next you’ll tell me that it was secretly elves and/or dwarves disguised as humans manning the ramparts in Minas Tirith for lo these many years repelling numerous invasions of unsavory orcs flowing out of Mordor. Let’s face it; it is humans that have fought and died to protect the elves’ and dwarves’ right to ungratefully burn the flag of the Rohirrim in protest.

Moe Lane: With all due respect, Man, you may want to contemplate that the Rohirrim flag has a completely different meaning to those who have had to deal with the Dunlending refugees dispossessed by that illegal regime. Might I remind you that Cirion did not actually have the authority to cede that territory to Eorl, even if you concede that previous Gondorian governments did?

Leon H. Wolf: Of course, you would seek to argue a point of ancient history to justify the current unseemly behavior of your peoples. Next you’ll be asking for reparations from the current regime notwithstanding the fact that no one in it took in these regrettable actions. History is written by the victors, and there comes a time when we all have to move on and deal with reality as it is. And right now the reality is that the Dwarves are powerless to withstand even Saruman (much less Sauron) - to say nothing of being totally disinclined to do so.

Any race of peoples can look back into history and find a convenient excuse to complain and do nothing. What you have to concede at this point is that Man - with precious little help from elves and even less from dwarves - is holding this world together and all you can offer in response is complaint.

Dan McLaughlin: The elves may have more difficulty making appeals to forget ancient history.

Leon H. Wolf: That, of course, is the essential problem with elves. They refuse to exist in the same plane of reality as the rest of us - it’s unnatural and disruptive to the cause we are fighting. The problems of history demand that the slate be wiped clean every now and again or we will perpetually face yesterday’s problems.

Moe Lane: Ah, yes, yet another example of Manocentricism. Five hundred years is not “ancient history” to anybody but Men, who seize on their own short lifespans to excuse their utter lack of short-term thinking. And I am not demanding reparations, although I can certainly see why your victims might wish to do so.

Pejman Yousefzadeh: Everyone is thus far missing the key question: Why did Aragorn choose Arwen over Eowyn?

One is a flighty Elf who won’t even be immortal anymore. The other is a beautiful, yet battle-hardened shield-maiden of Rohan. The Kingdom of Men chose foolishly by not making the latter their queen.

Ben Domenech: What we have here is a profound misunderstanding of the fundamental nature of diplomacy. One cannot cross the path into negotiation, especially without preconditions, with the lieutenants of Barad-dur without a full understanding of the historical basis for the moment. The Mouth of Sauron does not come to the table with an even-handed appraisal of the situation at hand, but rather with memories repeated and passed down of the wrongs and sins of Numenorean antiquity, slights and battles that may be virtually unknown by the naive, but are still sung of by those who recall the gates of Angband, if not in the halls of the Riders of the Mark.

Elrond’s mistake was in expecting his allies to come to the table with an informed perspective on history - an understanding of the unique calling they faced at this critical moment, when all swayed in the balance. Instead, they came to the table with expectations ranging from the naivete of refined Elvish protectionism and the swaggering redneck/jock courage of Men, and were disappointed when the imaginary world they had constructed came crashing down. Don’t get me wrong, I respect Elrond, I respect him for what he attempted to achieve - but we should have no illusions about how poor a judge of character and knowledge he was in his fellows. Expecting any better from that lot was sheer ridiculousness, insanity that would be hilarious if it wasn’t so sad, like watching an Olog-hai joust with a Hummerhorn.

Pejman Yousefzadeh:

. . . One cannot cross the path into negotiation, especially without preconditions, with the lieutenants of Barad-dur without a full understanding of the historical basis for the moment.

One cannot talk to one’s enemies while at the same time imposing preconditions on those talks. They will not simply agree to give away the store and then sit down at the negotiating table.
The conceit that suggests otherwise is based on the rigid, unilateralist approach of the neo-Men, whose policy towards other races has caused grave instability throughout Middle Earth.

Moe Lane: Oh, Aule, not the Dread Neo-Men again. Tell me, are you using the Morgothian “Apostate Black Numenorian” definition, or are you taking the ultra-Baldorist meaning of “any Men we can’t stand”?

Pejman Yousefzadeh: I’m sure that people like you will try for a generation or two to try to cover up the mistakes and blunders of the neo-Men by resorting to semantics. No amount of wordplay, however, can cover up the failings and shortcomings of this bankrupt ideology.

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36 Comments Leave a comment

Best. Roundtable. Ever.

Brian Simpson Tuesday, November 4th at 3:12PM EST (link)

I bow at your ability to actually read the earlier Tolkien works. [Seriously, can anyone actually follow the Lost Tales?] I had a hard enough time reading LOTR.

The Minority Report | Twitter | Facebook | Digg | Politics4All | Missouri Matters | Rebuild the Party
Important principles may and must be inflexible. ~ Abraham Lincoln

 

Although I enjoyed this thoroughly

discombobulated Tuesday, November 4th at 3:18PM EST (link)

I just forwarded it to my wife so that she’ll know what real geeks sound like since I’m her only point of reference.

 

you guys are tooooo much....n/t

Attack Mode Tuesday, November 4th at 3:20PM EST (link)

n/t

“Land of the Free and Home of da Whopper” Peter Griffin…Family Guy

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

Steel-Belted Radial Right Winger

“I’ll create 5 million jobs from out of unicorn farts and pixie dust” Justatron paraphrasing Obamessiah…yes I love it that much.

 

...

MrsNachos Tuesday, November 4th at 3:21PM EST (link)

I love each and every one of you dearly and I have for many years. I am impressed at your level of NERD.

Please go here and vote for me: http://blueshelled.com/2009/08/28/bloggers-choice-awards/ … I need all the help I can get.

 

Who is speaking for the hobbits?

Sam_Gamgee Tuesday, November 4th at 3:26PM EST (link)

It’s just like the big people to talk and talk amongst themselves, and ignore us simple hobbits. You’ll notice it was us simple folk who in the end made the difference. I may note, on this November 4, that if there’s a difference to be made, it will be by us simple folk again. Those of us who “cling” to our simple ways, but who quietly, courageously and faithfully do what’s got to be done. (By the way, as a good friend of mine once said, there never was much hope — only a fool’s hope.)

And, if I may say so, no one of you important big people answered the original question. Of course it was suicide for Elrond to destroy the ring. But it was the right thing to do. He went into it with his eyes wide open. And as the Lady of the Woods said, she would diminish and pass into the West, for the good of Middle Earth.

So let the big people talk, while us simple folk work, raise our families, respond to duty when we are called, and sit back with our ale at the end of the day, and let the chips fall where they may.

“I wonder what sort of tale we’ve fallen into.”

I second that!

John Brill Tuesday, November 4th at 3:29PM EST (link)

Best. Roundtable. Ever.

All worth it for that one comment. <NT>

Moe Lane Tuesday, November 4th at 3:38PM EST (link)

Glad you liked it

Sam_Gamgee Tuesday, November 4th at 4:17PM EST (link)

This diary belongs back on the front page, though. It’s a welcome relief from obsessing about the election.

P.S. You may be Joe, but I am Sam.

“I wonder what sort of tale we’ve fallen into.”

 
 
 
 

Hmpf, this would have been moot if I had gotten help when it counted

Finrod Tuesday, November 4th at 4:54PM EST (link)

Personally, I tried to take out Sauron long before it was fashionable. If someone, anyone, had helped me take out Sauron back in the First Age, he wouldn’t have been around to corrupt the Rings of Power and none of this would have been an issue.


Finrod’s First Law of Bandwidth:
A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it takes the bandwidth of ten thousand.

55555

Elizabeth Tuesday, November 4th at 5:34PM EST (link)

Excellent!

“‘You come of the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve,’ said Aslan. ‘And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth. Be content.’” — C.S. Lewis’ “Prince Caspian”

 
 

This is exactly what I needed to take may mind off election results!

larueladue Tuesday, November 4th at 8:48PM EST (link)

I haven’t laughed this hard in many a day! I bow to the esoteric Tolkien knowledge unveiled here…

“Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.” - Publius Flavius Vegetius Renatus (Vegetius) in “De Re Militari,” Book III.

 

Wow.

I was previously Tlaloc, and I was banned last year. Tuesday, November 4th at 10:27PM EST (link)

That was geektastic. Kudos.

 

Is it bad

Bean Wednesday, November 5th at 2:35AM EST (link)

That I understood this whole thing without the use of Google or Wikipedia etc.?

I concede

Shawn Gillogly Wednesday, November 5th at 3:40AM EST (link)

That I too must have something seriously wrong with me. For I could understand all of this without the aid of outside references.

Though I would submit any appeal to the so-called “Lost Tales” (aka Christopher Tolkien’s attempt to turn Middle Earth into an unending cash-cow) as support is doomed by definition.

Great read :)

“Liberals are always talking about pluralism, but that is not what they mean. In public school, Jews don’t meet Christians. Christians don’t meet Hindus. Everybody meets nothing.”- Dennis Prager

5

Dan McLaughlin Wednesday, November 5th at 11:08AM EST (link)

nt

“No compromise with the main purpose, no peace till victory, no pact with unrepentant wrong.” - Winston Churchill

 
 
 

LOLOLOLOL!

jamecono Wednesday, November 5th at 11:47AM EST (link)

Priceless. Thanks.
I really needed this today.

 

J. R. R. Tolkien is

Lammo Wednesday, November 5th at 1:14PM EST (link)

RITGLHAO* in his grave. THANKS!!!!!!

Rolling In The Ground Laughing His A* Off

ACORN: Association of Criminals Obama Represented in the Nineties. (jupitersuite)

Don’t be so open minded that your brains fall out. (Fr. John Corapi, SOLT)

Crime never takes a holiday. (Dennis J. O’Shea, R.I.P.)

Unlawful is against the law. Illegal is a sick bird. (Ooold joke)

Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog it’s too dark to read. (Groucho Marx)

 

A new standard of low for geekdom

E Pluribus Unum Wednesday, November 5th at 3:48PM EST (link)

Just when you thought it was safe to venture into the Rec List……

Carthago delenda est

 

freakin hilarious

kyle8 Wednesday, November 5th at 3:58PM EST (link)

the attitudes of the roundtablers is spot on.

“Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty”
Kyle

 

The wisdom

bobbymike Wednesday, November 5th at 4:59PM EST (link)

Of taking on Sauron before he obtained RMD’s (ring of ….you get it) was a grave and necessary decision by the council. It was Sam the Gardener that ended up the true hero.

"Even the Wise cannot see all ends"

JustLeaveMeAlone Wednesday, November 5th at 6:00PM EST (link)

So counseled Gandalf at the folly of naming so many hobbits to the Fellowship. But trusting to their friendship, as well as the pity of Bilbo, changed the course of history. As we consider our current predicament, we may want to remember that.

Fabulous Roundtable, BTW. Scary that long passages of Tolkien flowed back to me, unbidden.

I wonder if Obama realizes he’s merely the Steward of Gondor, not the King? We, The People, are still the King. And the King requires that the Steward doth do his Office.

“To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.” Thomas Jefferson

 
 

Melkor/Sauron '12

alchemist17 Wednesday, November 5th at 6:16PM EST (link)

I’m done voting for the lesser of two evils!

Cthulu 2012

DRP Wednesday, November 5th at 6:38PM EST (link)

Title says it all.

Palpatine/Vader

kyle8 Wednesday, November 5th at 6:42PM EST (link)

Why mess with lightweights?

“Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty”
Kyle

No thanks

alchemist17 Wednesday, November 5th at 10:37PM EST (link)

We don’t need no “force fundamentalists” running our government … only good old megalomaniacs.

 
 
 
 

And the equivalnet in the modern age ...

alchemist17 Wednesday, November 5th at 11:31PM EST (link)

One government to rule them all,
one government to find them,
one government to bring them all,
and in the Darkness bind them
In the Beltway, where the Shadows lie.

 

Oh my, don't read this while quaffing ale

joe24pack Thursday, November 6th at 12:23PM EST (link)

This was so unbelievably funny. If I remember correctly it was Tolkien’s aim to give us, the English-speaking peoples, a modern day myth to illustrate timeless principles, strengthening and informing our culture. Given this parody, he’s succeeded far beyond his aspirations.

On another note, since I understood 95+% of the references, I must have a terminal case of Tolkien fandom. Time to have a good ale tonight.

Save the Earth, it’s the only known planet with beer.

 

eleventy one out of eleventy one!!

Andy W. Thursday, November 6th at 12:30PM EST (link)

Nicely done gentlemen.

I don’t think it’s at all sad that I understood every single referenced event.

It just means I had too few dates as a teenager and young adult.

come on 2010 and 2012

Keep up the good work Sam Graves (R, MO-6)

I can see the first debate

Neil Stevens Thursday, November 6th at 1:50PM EST (link)

THE PRESIDENT: “And that is why Morgoth and Sauron would represent four more years of the failed policies George Bush and Dick Cheney. Remember the downfall of Nûmenor? Just like Iraq.”

MODERATOR: “Thank you. The next question is for Melkor: What will you do about the infrastructure problems caused by the recent flooding in the Mississippi valley?”

MELKOR: All lands east of the Mississippi are to be mine, forever. They will be ruled by my lieutenant, Sauron.

In the west, all men east of the Rockies are to be disarmed, and will pay tribute. The Pacific coast may live in peace.

MODERATOR: President Obama, Melkor appears to be coming out in favor of gun control. Do you have a rebuttal?

Want to run for conservatives? Give.
There Is No Crisis

Perfect

JustLeaveMeAlone Thursday, November 6th at 2:06PM EST (link)

n/t

“To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.” Thomas Jefferson

 
 
 

As a BlueStater

Sarah Palin scares me. Thursday, November 6th at 2:13PM EST (link)

I would never have guessed that Tolkien would be our common ground. But in retrospect, why not?

I find it heartening that, at least in the original works if not your on-target and amusing roundtable, members of all the groups were able to unite around a common goal. Perhaps there’s hope for us yet.

Oh, our current situation is a lot like Tolkien, I think

Neil Stevens Thursday, November 6th at 11:53PM EST (link)

Cast George Bush as King Thingol and Daily Kossacks as the Noldor arriving in Middle-earth from Aman.

Only now Fingolfin has gotten the throne in Doriath, and the Sindar are deciding whether to help him with the dragons flying his way.

Want to run for conservatives? Give.
There Is No Crisis

blast! You beat me to it.

Raven Sunday, November 9th at 12:15AM EST (link)

Maybe I should have actually read this diary a few days ago…

“Unlike cruel liberty that requires you to stand and take responsibility for your choices, kind tyranny requires only that you kneel and surrender your choices.”

If you hadn't been so prideful and spiteful to begin with

Raven Sunday, November 9th at 12:22AM EST (link)

You might have gotten that help. But no. YOUR needs trumped the needs of your father’s people and the other peoples of Valinor.

We were ALL hurt sorely by the assault on the Twin Trees. We wanted to help you recover those jewels if only you’d use them to heal the Trees. But noooo. YOU wanted the jewels for yourself. Well, you and yours got what you deserved. Too bad you had to take so many down with you…

“Unlike cruel liberty that requires you to stand and take responsibility for your choices, kind tyranny requires only that you kneel and surrender your choices.”

 
 
 
 

Loved it

Koan Sunday, November 9th at 11:09PM EST (link)

First-rate! Tolkien nerds cross all party and ideological lines. Great stuff.

Longtime liberal lurker, speaking for me only

 

fun but...

xy Thursday, November 13th at 5:21AM EST (link)
  • a tad Men biased. Lest we forget Men caused the trouble with that nasty Ring in the first place. It was Men that had the bright idea to go up against Valinor and tank Numenor. Men also wanted to use the Ring in Gondor.

The Dwarves may stick around in their caves, there were only three tribes of Men; Elves did most of the hard work in the First Age.

There is no counterweight against Sauron except destrying the Ring, despite the no doubt valiant sacrifice by Men and Elves and Dwarves and Ents.

 

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