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A Brief Analysis of the Legal Challenges to Obamacare

“Obamacare mandates that individual citizens purchase a product, on penalty of fines, that is not available in interstate commerce, all theoretically in the name of regulating interstate commerce? Just to speak the concept aloud is to be struck dumb by the breathtaking arrogance of Congress in passing this bill, and the disregard for the Constitutional limits on their power.”

I had the opportunity last Friday to speak with South Carolina Attorney General Henry McMaster, who graciously made himself available to me to answer some questions about the legal challenges to the Obamacare bill.  I have, in private, expressed skepticism about the legal merits of these challenges, for a couple of reasons: first, any challenge asserting that Congress has exceeded the scope of their authority under the Commerce Clause has not had a very good success rate in the past century, and second, I am skeptical of the arguments I have heard thus far for why the states in particular have standing to bring suit.

Attorney General McMaster discussed with me the particulars of the legal challenge brought by Florida AG (and presumptive GOP gubernatorial nominee) Bill McCollum.  This challenge was filed seven minutes after the bill was signed into law, and has been joined (for now) by 14 states, and it is anticipated that more will follow. A breakdown of my own analysis of this challenge is below the fold.

In my mind, the first hurdle the states have to clear is the standing question.  For the non-lawyers, a brief breakdown of this doctrine is here, but the one-sentence explanation is that not everyone can bring a suit in court challenging the constitutionality of a law; the party bringing the suit must be able to show that they either actually have been injured (or imminently will be injured), and that the Court is capable of redressing such injury.

This is a sticky question in this case.  The states have a pretty good argument that they are injured by Obamacare because the act contains a number of unfunded mandates (particularly to Medicaid) that will have an adverse impact on the State’s budget.  However, I’m not aware of a particularly plausible constitutional challenge to that aspect of the bill.  To my mind, the only plausible challenges to the bill deal with the individual mandate section of the bill.  The states, in and of themselves, are not harmed by virtue of the fact that individual persons within the state will be unconstitutionally required to purchase health insurance.  Admittedly, I haven’t done any thorough or exhaustive research on this question, but this seems to be a difficult hurdle for the states to mount.

Of course, recent Supreme Court decisions have indicated that as long as one party to the suit has standing, the states may join in the suit.  Therefore, it seems that as long as the states can join an individual who is fined for refusing to purchase health care under the law, they have standing.  However, there are two problems with this: first, looking at the complaint, they have not done so.  There are no individual plaintiffs. That, however, is a fixable problem.  Second, and somewhat less fixable (in the short term) the individual plaintiffs will not be required to purchase health insurance until 2014.  I am not sure if this counts as imminent harm. It might, and there might be case law demonstrating that it passes muster, but I haven’t seen any in the legal materials provided to me by the states to evaluate that at all.  It is also at least possible that the states may have parens patriae standing to sue here, but I am simply not well-versed enough in the doctrine to evaluate that. 

Additionally, even if the States can demonstrate standing here, the substantive problems with the challenge are not insignificant.  There can be no doubt that the Federal Government currently undertakes a great amount of activity that was never contemplated by the founders under the auspices of the Commerce Clause.  However, that very fact itself indicates that this activity has been undertaken with the constant and regular acquiescence of the Supreme Court.  However, recent Supreme Court decisions such as United States v. Lopez and United States v. Morrison may signal the turning of the tide.

Conceptually, if there is a law that demands that the Supreme Court reassert a reasonable interpretation of the Commerce Clause, this is it.  Obamacare mandates that individual citizens purchase a product, on penalty of fines, that is not available in interstate commerce, all theoretically in the name of regulating interstate commerce?  Just to speak the concept aloud is to be struck dumb by the breathtaking arrogance of Congress in passing this bill, and the disregard for the Constitutional limits on their power.  Of course, States (being entities of general powers as opposed to enumerated powers) might certainly decide to do this, if that is their prerogative, but there is absolutely no justification to be found within the Constitution for the breadth and scope of this action.

In the final analysis, we are treading in uncertain territory here.  There is no reasonable argument that what Congress has done is actually within the scope of its powers under the Commerce Clause, as envisioned by the founders.  However, until United States v. Lopez, suits brought challenging the constitutionality of Congressional actions on that ground were DOA.  Given the new composition of the court, trying to analyze where Supreme Court will come down on this question is a frank guessing game.  The most important challenge for the States at this point is to get their ducks in a row on the standing question and let the chips fall where they may.

COMMENTS

  • http://www.ufcle.com/willis/willis.htm Steven Willis

    Leon,

    The Capitation issue is a serious one, albeit fraught with ripeness issues.

    I’ve nearly completed a much longer article regarding my analysis than what I posted here a few days ago.

    More to follow in a couple days.

    • Leon H. Wolf

      It seems conceptually weird to me, but I’d love to have a full analysis from you on this. If you get it done, email me leon -at redstate.com with the link and I’ll be sure it sees the front page.

      • http://www.ufcle.com/willis/willis.htm Steven Willis

        I’ve put perhaps 60 or more hours into this since Friday. I expect to submit it to a professional journal in a day or two.

        • GenEarly

          The Supreme Court rulings on the Commerce Clause itself destroyed the Republic,and the Constitution. When a farmer can not grow corn on his own property, for his own consumption and the commerce clause is used to justify Federal Control in this instance; You think any freedom exists? Lawyers arguing about how many angels fit on the head of a pin or more correctly the “penumbrae” of the Constitution.
          Throw out Case Law! Go to the original documents themselves or it’s a lost cause. More accurately you are trying to resuscitate what very little is left of The Constitution.

    • jenniferjmilleresq

      thanks…

      • http://www.ufcle.com/willis/willis.htm Steven Willis

        I’m not sure how to link to the diary. My longer article is nearing completion and not ready for publication. Give me a day or two.

        • qurys

          It would be great with a followup article on Redstate clearly noting this article and the link to the longer article. I would be very interested in reading it.

        • hickorystick

          Pretty good.

          http://www.redstate.com/steven_willis/2010/03/24/of-constitutional-de-capitation/

          Steven, in the search box, which is located just under the red map at the top of the website, type in your screen name and push enter. Scroll down to find your article, then click on it. Highlight the address, click copy, then paste in the body of writing.

    • http://www.voteforteri2010.com teridavisnewman

      Several other Conservative candidates have opined that refusing to fund the bureaucracy needed to implement the bill will keep it from going into effect while we work on the support needed to repeal it. While I am not an attorney, (unlike many in Congress) and I haven’t bounced this off my legal adviser, it sounds like it could be an effective approach to keep it neutered until repealed.

  • jenniferjmilleresq

    I believe I heard that a conservative legal foundation has filed suit and is focusing on the individual mandate. Would their standing be based on taxpayer status? I am a little foggy on federal standing law. I know in our state there is standing for issues of public importance (S.C.) and taxpayer standing as well.

    • trumpetplayer

      This FORCED coverage is a disaster. For those in low income brackets,unemployed or underemployed, It makes one choose between paying for energy, food, school supplies for children, paying local taxes mortgages etc & keeping the IRS from placing a tax lien against your wages, bank account, Social Security, car, house IRA and any other “Assets you may “own”.
      This is not “affordable health Care” Regulating the Insurance Industry, Pharmaceutical companies(who over charge for Meds sold here) Putting a limit on Malpractice Settlements and other contributing factors is the way to go about it. FORCING coverage is Not! How do I get someone to file a law suit on my behalf when I have no money to pay? When I had a job that paid $11.00 to $13.25 an hour, I had insurance & could afford it. But thanks to NAFTA it is no more. Go to my blog www://strobx1.blogspot.com/
      or strobx1 channel on Youtube to hear more of what I have to say.

    • http://www.thats-right.com thatsright

      It’s a good complaint, available here:

      http://www.thomasmore.org/qry/page.taf?id=18

      Russ Cote, Esq.

  • conservativecounsel

    With respect to standing for the individual mandate, I understand the requirement does not take effect until 2014 so there may be an issue of ripeness along with standing.

    I do query, however, how this may be impacted in the near future if premiums increase substantially and individuals begin to loose company provided coverage as a result of this new legislation. This may increase the level of certainty of increased harm for 2014 that some form of declaritory action may be available.

    Just a thought.

  • wilfranc

    If they take it, and rule to repeal, they probably ignite a firestorm, like Bush v Gore in 2000. Although Scalia is known to state firmly “get over it”, people haven’t. Roosevelt didn’t respect much the court’s ruling on NRA. Although we all got over it.

    If they take it and rule it constitutional, if for the main reason I’ve heard the pundits claim (not to step on Congress toes), will it encourage civil disobedience or quell it?

    If they don’t take it, the most broadly sweeping piece of legislation that effects every individual of every state, is it because it’s above their pay scale?

    How come liberals say this is about giving us a right (health care), but they defend it based on economy (Comerce Clause)? Us conservatives seem to see this law as about the government grab of the economy (commerce) and fight it based on rights (individual ones, that is).

    • http://www.thesubstratum.com GJ Merits

      As I have stated over and over, don’t rely on the SCOTUS to save you on this one. I don’t see it happening. If it takes too long it won’t matter – the damage will have been done.

      Perhaps there is a way to convince the courts to hear the case on an expedited basis precisely because the damage to the health industry and out health care will be irreversible without creating much harm. The time to stop the scaffolding from taking form is now. If they can be convinced of that, maybe they will hear the case and strike it down. Outside of that, the states will need to nullify the law and refuse to follow any of it. Then the courts will hear the case. Nullify mandates and any other aspect of ObamaCare and the courts will hear the case as the other government branches sue.

    • edwlstr

      I WILL NOT participate. I WILL NOT pay a fine. I WILL NOT go to jail. But I may have to go to Costa Rica. It was a honor to serve America but this vetran is beginning to see our freedom taken away by the enemy within when the enemies without could not. I’d rather not stay and watch liberty die.

      • edwlstr

        new keyboard. still getting used to it.

  • eastbaylarry

    All the special deals, i.e. LA Purchase, SIEU examptions, etc., would seem to shout unequal treatment.

    Of course, the courts could rule the exemption invalid, give the same deals to everybody, raising the cost of ObamaCare, while still keeping the basic act entact.

  • eastbaylarry

    All the special deals, i.e. LA Purchase, SIEU examptions, etc., would seem to shout unequal treatment.

    Of course, the courts could rule the exemption invalid, give the same deals to everybody, raising the cost of ObamaCare, while still keeping the basic act entact.

    • leftylurker

      There’s no discrimination against a protected class, such as minorities or women, so the government’s threshold is likely going to be a “rational basis” for the decision.

      As far as I know, a challenge under the 14th rational basis has only been successful once. And that was because a city wanted to prevent a group home for developmentally disabled adults from being opened up; which is a pretty good set of facts for the challenger.

      But I’m not a constitutional scholar, so I will defer to one with better knowledge.

      • acat

        ..there’d be one group or another singled out for special treatment.

        The Cornhusker Kickback died, yes? That was a nice one because it was a part of the bill. If he can convince people he was smart enough to engineer it that way, Nelson may come out a (somewhat tarnished) hero… of course I don’t think he’s that good a salesperson.

        Anyway, with all the dealmaking to get this beast passed, there has to be someone who got preferential treatment – it’s just a matter of finding it.

        Mew

        • kevhead62

          are exempt, i.e. Amish, Scientoligists. Does anyone know this for sure? If this is true, than there is an obvious legal discrimination complaint.

          • http://slcliberty.blogivists.com randy streu

            nt.

          • kevhead62

            Being a practicing Catholic, this looks to me like a slam dunk, expecially where the funding of abortion issue comes into play.

          • southernilpat

            Are already exempt from Social Security, specifically because it is a form of insurance which their religion prohibits, as they are supposed to take care of their own. They won this by a long court battle. Since this bill is also specifically for insurance, I’m sure precedents apply. For Catholics to be treated equally they would have to prove that their religion also prohibits insurance.

          • joenitwit

            If one state must pay one tax rate and get one set of benefits, then all states must pay those same taxes.

            The Supreme Court cannot extend those benefits to other states – that would be legislation (not that the court is worried about legislating from the bench). The only way to remedy would be to remove the individual state benefit or rule the entire law as unconstitutional (most likely the later).

            I like this as the most likely route to tossing this Obamination.

      • E Pluribus Unum

        Such as, residents of NE, LA, et al.

        It’s certainly vaild. Whether or not courts will say so, I could not say.

      • http://www.inthisdimension.com inthisdimension

        Given the LEGISLATED INEQUALITY of Congressional staffers – the same law treats them differently than everyone else in that they are NOT forced to participate.. how, exactly, is this NOT a violation of Equal Protection?

  • EDC

    Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott was recently interviewed on this subject:

    http://alt.coxnewsweb.com/statesman/audio/Embry/AGPODCAST.mp3

  • EDC

    I’m not a lawyer, but the argument that access to free health care is a right falls apart without much tugging.

    Look for a moment at an actual right — the right to own a gun. I have the constitutional right to own a gun, but am I required to own one? No. Should I want to exercise my right to own a gun, is the government required to buy it for me? No.

    • momma

      “Should I want to exercise my right to own a gun, is the government required to buy it for me? No.”

      Are other taxpaying citizens required to buy it for me? No.

      FIFY

  • http://cannedjam.com cannedjam

    but Raich returned the court back to the insanity of upholding the current interpretation of the interstate commerce clause. You can read Justice Thomas’ dissenting opinion in that case for a glimmer of hope for sanity from the bench.

    Let’s hope that the individual mandate is a big enough bifurcation from the current precident that it gives the court enough wiggle room to throw this law out without having to overturn 80 years worth of legislation (something that would be awesome but something far too drastic for the court to ever consider).

    The key is for the court to decide this current law is a new interpretation of the constitution, and that new interpretation is illegal. If that does not happen the court will not touch this thing with a ten foot pole.

  • cari

    I found this article this morning and found it very interesting indeed:

    http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/03/the_supreme_court_and_fdrs_pow.html

    • http://cannedjam.com cannedjam

      Helvering v. Davis is the point in time where SCOTUS sold its soul to survive. It has been neutered ever since.

      • http://www.thesubstratum.com GJ Merits

        All the way to the 1810 Marshall Court. It’s been downhill since then.

        • leftylurker

          I’ve never understood how the court decided it had the power of judicial review.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marbury_v._Madison

          Sheesh, talk about activist judges.

          • http://cannedjam.com cannedjam

            the court grew a set, a set that has since been snipped. But if not for it, the power and scope of congress and the president would go unchecked, even more so than now.

          • http://www.thesubstratum.com GJ Merits

            Judicial review was uncontroversial even before Marbury. Federalists said the courts should have the JR power and Republicans hoped the courts would use the power.

            Marbury did not establish judicial review. It established the presumed right of the SCOTUS to lecture elected officals even when the court HAD NO JURISDAICTION OVER THE QUESTION AT HAND.

            That last part is important. So judicial review was always assumed, just within the constraints of the court. As Marshall took his que from the Federalist 78 on this case, it is clear he once again took the nationalist stance which had been thoroughtly rejected in the Philidephia Convention.

            So A, the court never decided it had the power of judicial review, it only decided to increase the reach of its power. So leftylurker, you’re history is flawed.

            B, the court did not grow a set – it set the precendent for the Supreme Court to stick its nose in where it is not wanted. And if you think the court’s balls have been snipped, you have not watched the court for very long. Ever heard of the Supremecy Clause and the Commerce Clause? The Court is using its now well-established power to grant the same power to the executive and legislative branches.

            So which liberal school(s) do the two of you attend? I would like to debate your professor with half my brain removed after smoking twenty bags of weed and not sleeping for two weeks. It would still be a cakewalk.

          • leftylurker

            I went to Berkeley Law, and sir, with all due respect, Jesse Choper would eat you for lunch.’

            I disagree with your read on history as well, but I do not want to jack the thread. I would however, be happy to debate you on a more appropriate thread.

          • leftylurker

            A raging liberal if there ever was one.

          • http://cannedjam.com cannedjam

            ?
            First, it is not SCOTUS?s job to interpret the Federalist Papers, it is their job to interpret the Constitution. Since no such explicit power of judicial review of the supreme court is granted in that document, the court had to infer it from the overall context therein. If you think that a case that resulted in the legal precedent of all precedents, took no testicular fortitude on the part of the men making the decision, well then you must have a much bigger set than I.
            ?
            Not sure what point you are making about the commerce clause. I assert that it was misinterpreted under political duress brought about by FDR, and that the SCOTUS has pretty much punted on the issue ever since, lacking the balls to overturn a precedent that would have a far reaching and immediate social impact. That is why I say the only way this law can be overturned by the court is if the court can rule it unconstitutional without touching the long standing interpretation of the interstate commerce clause pre 3/23/10.
            ?
            ?I am also not sure how my post was in any way tied to a liberal interpretation of history.

          • http://www.thesubstratum.com GJ Merits

            Berkeley Law school – that explains it! Touched a nerve did I leftylurker? From your response, your professor obviously does not understand the historical context of the constitution and takes the same old tired approach of studying case law taken out of the context of the document itself. Typical liberal – ignore history, rewrite it, and then teach it to the sponges who turn into sheep. Nothing to see here, move along, we have objectives to meet and we will be damned if we let the truth get in the way. Berkeley? That tells me all I need to know.

            Go back and read your history. As I pointed out in another post, I was born in Canada and a raging liberal myself. I learned your history, until I took the initiative to learn the real history of this country. Sorry boys, been down that path and stood in your shoes

            cannedjam, we are on common enough ground to begin an actual discourse. No insult intended. The history on the case is clear and I will write a diary about it so you and I can comment.

          • leftylurker

            I’m still not seeing an argument in your posts, just a bunch of ad hominem attacks. At good law schools we learn to avoid those.

          • http://www.thesubstratum.com GJ Merits

            Besides,

            It looks like horizon3 and makemyday are on the job, so I won’t waste my time here.

            And please don’t call Berkeley Law a law school – it’s insulting to real law schools everywhere. A bunch of echo chamber liberals incapable of original thought does not a law school make. Use your skills at research and read my diaries. I am not about to write everything I have written before for your sake. The diaries should be education enough for you.

          • leftylurker

            I’ll waste no more time on you.

          • http://www.thesubstratum.com GJ Merits

            n/t

          • horizon3

            The SCOTUS job is NOT to interpret the Constitution, but to interpret the law as compared to the Constitution. The Constitution bears no interpretation, to do so renders it invalid, it is the basis of our laws.
            Example: If down the road the courts decide that the Commerce Clause means something other that what they previously rendered, all of the laws that were enacted based on the previous “interpretation” are Null & Void, as they no longer have Constitutional merit.
            It seems both of you and several others on here have fallen into the progressive trap. The Constitution was not written in a foreign language, or to be in the exclusive bailiwick of lawyers, it was written for the common literate person, to read and understand, and to be easily explained to those that could not. All that is needed to “understand” the Constitution is a dictionary and a common grammar from the time of it’s writing, (this would be unnecessary if the progressives would stop trying to change the meanings of words) you should keep in mind that when the Declaration and Constitution were written, the only document ever printed and dispersed more widely was The Holy Bible, they were nailed up and posted just about everywhere that would hold a nail to do so. There used to be a copy of both hanging in every post office & courthouse in the land, and most churches, taverns and roadhouses, and general stores as well.

          • leftylurker

            But there has to be at least *some* room for interpreting the Constitution, right? There are plenty of things not in the Constitution that we believe should have been in there, like the right to establish the Air Force.

          • makemyday

            There is *some* room for interpretation by Constitutional Conventions.

            Interpretation is not in there anywhere that I can see. Want to change something or the way it works? Convince enough people that it needs to be changed and put it up to a ballot.

            Electing the *one* does not constitute a referendum or convention on the merits of the Constitution. Saying “We won” does not mean the rules can be changed or interpreted to fit an agenda.

            That thinking is dangerous and will put a target on your back faster than you can blink.

          • leftylurker

            Such as the air force example I stated above? If we can’t interpret at all then we can’t adapt at all.

          • horizon3

            Is still part of the Dept. of The Army, which is allowed under the Constitution, if you review history the the US Air Force used to be called the US Army Air Force until the mid 50s when Curtis LeMay successfully lobbied Congress to change the name. Just as the Marines and Coast Guard are part of the The Dept. of The Navy.

          • mriggio

            LeMay did more than just a name change; the USAF is it’s own department and has been for 60 plus years. Not so sure about the USMC and USCG; think the USCG is a Dept of the Interior, not Defense, but couldn’t swear to it. For sure Dept of AF is equal to not subordinate to Dept of Army. Says so right there on my USAF retirement papers…..

          • streiff

            Guess that applies to the Coast Guard and Marine Corps, too. Oh. wait. They both existed before the Constitution.

            I take it back. Not silly, just stupid.

          • leftylurker

            The general question is if you cannot use anything but a completely literal interpretation then how can you adapt to changes not foreseen by the authors?

          • Aaron Gardner

            Once you do that, it’s pretty easy to stick to a literal interpretation.

            This is why your argument is stupid.

          • leftylurker

            I’m not sure this is productive, because I’m not really seeing an argument in your post. Thanks for the answers and your time.

          • Aaron Gardner

            You did ask a question right?

          • leftylurker

            Anyway, I do need to stop this. It’s thread jacking, and it’s getting old.

          • Aaron Gardner

            Either you accept that the Founders wrote the Constitution with the intent of it being to limit a centralized Gov’t, and therefore easy to follow literally, or you don’t.

            Also, beyond this, the Constitution itself details the proper way to implement changes in the meaning of the Constitution, see Article V Sec. 1.

          • leftylurker

            That actually was useful, and the answer I was looking for.

          • Aaron Gardner
          • http://cannedjam.com cannedjam

            I consider myself to be a constructionist, however to say that the courts job is not to interpret the meaning of the constitution is a bit odd. Sure, to infer there is meaning where none exists is rediculious, however, surely there are times where the court must determin the meaning of the text of the document in order to determin if a law or action is constitutional.

            In Marbury the court interpreted the right of judicial review based on the text of the document. They determined the meaning of the text.

            I comepletely agree that legislating from the bench is anti-constitutional and I believe that if the framers thought the document could be interpreted an reinterpreted based on the prevailing sensibilities of the times, they would have never spelled out a process for amending it.

            I think you guys are infering too much into my use of the word “interpret”. I am not saying it makes sense to interpret a right to an abortion based on a penumbra, what I do mean is that in order to understand the meaning of the document in the context of the language used, from time to time when there is a question as to meaning, someone has to make that call, and that falls to the courts. If everything was cut and dry and back and white the job of a judge would not be neccassary.

            That said, and as evidenced by the other posts I made in this thread I believe the court has infered meaning where there is none, and that the interstate commerce clause was never intended to be used as justification for the unlimited authority of the federal government. The constitution would have never been able to be ratified in the first place if that is what the sates thought they were signing their names to.

            In sum I do not believe in “free interpretation” of the document, and did not mean it to sound that way. But I am curious, do you guys believe the supreme court’s power of judicial review is unnecessary and congress should be trusted to come to their own strict understanding of constitutionality? Or that the question of constitutionality should never even come up because it should be clear to everyone based on the simplicity of the document?

          • streiff

            I guess that means its illegal for the government to have computers.

            It isn’t about a literal interpretation. It is about a set of principles. Fine, you guys don’t like the Constitution. It cramps your style. We’ve known that for years. The solution is to amend it. Don’t pretend that there is authority in the existing document by finding penumbras and emanations.

            Are you seriously contending that there weren’t sick people during the time the Constitution was drafted and ratified? I think there were and the founders decided that they were not a federal issue.

          • leftylurker

            “It isn’t about a literal interpretation. It is about a set of principles.”

            I LOVE the Constitution. I used to carry a copy around with me all the time. (I have slacked on that recently…) I even have a favorite amendment (4th).

            I just read it differently than some people do. And I think that it’s important to accept that people who read it differently can still love it as much as you do.

            I am a pretty left wing guy, but I love my country. And I’m sure you love it too streiff. I come to this site because you all actually BELIEVE in something, because you have principles, which I will say the vast majority of liberals do not. I come here to learn and educate myself and take the best of your ideas and integrate them into mine. So, it does get my goat when people say liberals don’t care about the rule of law or the founding fathers, because I’m living proof that at least one does.

            =)

          • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens
          • horizon3

            Were actually very far sighted, they took great care in wording the document, many literary scholars have declared it to be one of the finest documents ever rendered by man.

            The contention comes when the societal morals have changed, and not for the better, lefty you are a victim of a liberal education, and hence have not been truthfully taught the principals of the Founders at the time the Constitution was written. Educators have steadily and inexorably been eroding these facts, for many years.

            A prime example is the so called “Separation of Church & State” there is no such animal in the Constitution zip, nada, none. The Constitution simply states that the Federal Government cannot create a state sponsored or controlled religion, ala “The Church of England”.

            Another is the “Commerce” clause, the contention on this is caused by the steady eroding of the meaning of the word “regulate”, at the time of the writing of the Constitution the word “regulate” was defined as to keep regular, which means to maintain normality between two opposing entities, in the context of the Commerce clause it boils down to keeping the states from sticking it to each other by imposing import duties and such on the other states, and to maintain a more or less uniform system of laws. The word regulate has devolved to mean more or less create laws that inhibit or force a given action, not to promote normality.

          • leftylurker

            I totally agree 100% with everything you said. Well, not so much about the education because I went to a Church of Christ school, but I did go to 2 UCs so…

            I think the big difference for me is, while I think that the expansion of the commerce clause is an atrocity, and totally not the way I see the original intent, I have no choice but to accept it as the law of the land. I can work to have Justices appointed that I agree with, but I have no choice but to accept the rules they law down.

            For you D&D folks out there, I’d say I’m pretty Lawful Neutral. =)

          • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

            You’re assuming judicial supremacy, which is *not* a neutral position.

          • mschmitt
    • http://www.thesubstratum.com GJ Merits

      I loved it. Gives me some hope.

    • eburke
  • E Pluribus Unum

    And pretty much every publicly traded corporation that has to adjust its books for this and report multi-million dollar losses?

    Or if a corp can’t sue, any shareholder of any of these corps whose value takes a dive.

    Non-lawyer asking.

  • LeaveMeAlone

    I found this while looking into the historical context of the commerce clause:

    “It was said by Chief Justice Marshall that it is a matter of public history that the object of vesting in congress the power to regulate commerce with foreign nations and among the several states was to insure uniformity for regulation against conflicting and discriminating state legislation.”

    Would this not support an argument to/by the conservative wing of the court that the clause is meant to ensure equal treatment of such commerce by the states, and not to interfere with or actually participate in and/or mandate such commerce?

    • http://cannedjam.com cannedjam

      is what Madison himself said to the New York delegation during the constitutional convention, convincing them that the federal government’s authority is limited by the enumerated powers of article I.

  • hickorystick

    It isn’t so much about legal precedents and laws, as about freedom. Most of the American script has been about being allowed to do something, where before you were not, or were hassled if you did. For me, I choose to have as little health insurance as i can, and only insure for catastrophe right now. I have fought with my wife over this from day 1. Am I free to choose? What Dem’s don’t seem to understand is No is a logical choice too. I don’t mind the government organizing the structure of society, but I do mind them compelling me to do something. This issue goes all the way back to Roger Williams, who left Massachusettes to found the state of Rhode Island. Forced tithing to the Church, a ‘dissenting’ church at that, was supposed to be a settled issue. You should not be compelled to take part in anything.
    Also, as the descendant of an Irishman, there is a long history of compulsion to pay for a state church, and expulsion from participating in free-markets. The ruling power, England, would go to Parliament to get laws written to prevent Irishmen (and Scotsmen) from raising first cattle, then corn for export. The Corn Laws were a great source of hatred toward the government, and caused much immigration to America in search of freedom.. Some of these issues need to be looked at from individual, cultural, and historical angles, and not purely legal ones. The Commerce Clause is crushing the rights of many to engage in entrepreneurship and traditional trade.

    • cabanon

      I’ve said this before in another post but the problem is EMTALA, its a completely unfunded mandate requiring private hospitals to give away free care.

      Sure you don’t have to have health insurance but if you’re hit by a car a private company, like an ambulance service and then the emergency room that treats you is required by law to help you regardless if you can pay for it. How is this fair to companies?! They need to be able to determine if you have insurance or have the means to pay before they help you, if not then they should be allowed to not provide services. Its simple repeal EMTALA.

      • hickorystick

        Who the heck is the national Congress to tell each and every ambulance company and hospital to provide free care without re-imbursement? If they want to offer to pay them, fine.
        Places like the Fred Hutchison Cancer Institute were started by one persons idea to do something when his brother died of cancer. He solicited private donations, and made great inroads against cancer, plus providing a place that specializes in treating and healing cancer patients. It serves people from all across the region. It is not the kind of place that gets started by a government bureaucrat.

  • toadold

    A court case even if the Supremes refuse to hear it, will draw attention. The Democrats right now would really, really, like, to get off the Health Care issue.
    I feel sure that there is going to be a summer of litigation.

    Then there is the old saw that judges read newspapers.
    Also, there are more than a few judges on the bench right now that are motivated to find some reason or way to stick it to Obama. They are supposed to be impartial and just judge a case on it’s merits, but they may be tempted to have a long debate on it.

    • Scope

      You joined RS 4 days ago just to say that?

      • leftylurker

        =)

      • redword

        some of us come to Redstate to read and educate ourselves on matters that are important to us. We may not be as well versed as you in matters concerning constitutional, legislative, or judicial law, but we are trying. Those like me most often don’t leave comments…we are here to read and assimilate the information espoused in the different views. But opinions such as your elitist comment are obviously designed to drive those of us of little knowledge away from this site.

        Certainly “toadold” doesn’t care that I am responding to your attack, and I know that he didn’t ask for me to come to “defend” him. I’m just sick of the snippy attitudes that some of you have all in the form of trying to show how smart and knowledgeable you are.

        Don’t bother replying…I won’t be here to read it. I’ll find my body of knowledge elsewhere–and believe me–there are plenty of sites where I can find that. You know…and that’s really what’s wrong with this country today…a select few people (in their minds) think they are better than the rest of us (in their minds).

        I used to come here thinking I was gaining information from like minded individuals free from the vitriol and abuse proliferated on such sites as Human Events. Well…at least with the comments on Human Events, I know what I’m getting.

        • Scope

          n/t

          • mschmitt
    • edwlstr

      during the State of the Union address, some on that Supreme Court might be inclined to entertain a season or two of protracted debate ending the judicial jubilee by shoving the offending legislation right back up the Presidential hoohaw. And I, for one, certainly would encourage the Court to reward his hubris with a nice judicial suppository.

  • snowshooze

    I realize there are challenges filed..
    How long to the first battle in this war? Any guesses?
    Mark

  • caboose

    Is all that is required to bring this case to the SCOTUS. “POWERS RETAINED BY THE STATES AND THE PEOPLE.” Amendment XI, “The power not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.” Its long over due for States to establish, in addition to the State Attorney General, a judicial Review system in each State.In essence, every law passed in Congress and signed by the President would be reviewed by the body and challenged directly to the SCOTUS. The States will decide whether to go directley to the SCOTUS, or in some cases, to an inferior “Federal Court.” ART III, Section II, Clause II, of the Constitution which outlines Jurisdiction of cases, Reads in Part: “Those in which a State shall be Party, the supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction.” For the SCOTUS to refuse to hear such a case, would be a flagrnt violation of the above mentioned references and could be cause for any State to refuse to comply with any law that the US Congress passes into Law. Robert Bork spoke about what the constitution actually reads about the general welfare. The constitution refers to: “Promote the General Welfare” Not “Provide the General Welfare”. Bork said that if the latter was true, the US would have to provide everyone equal General Welfare and not discriminate regardless of the persons status. I agree! There is no if about it, the SCOTUS has no choice, but to hear this case.

  • colinc

    If you leave no recourse to end this impending tyranny through the Courts, and you leave no recourse to end this tyranny through the ballot box, then you leave those who love freedom no choice but to exercise their 2nd Amendment rights. If you say that it is not likely to be overturned by SCOTUS and it’s unlikely to be repealed, then what choice do people have? Tell them, what choice? It is obvious on its face that this law is unconstitutional on so many levels, not the least of which is you cannot force a person to engage in commerce so that you can regulate that commerce. Address this issue, and not this subterfuge about supremacy and equal protection clauses, address this single issue alone, you cannot!!

  • toadold

    14 States acting together against the federal government. Isn’t that in itself unusual. Add this in to the states that are passing laws that counter the federal government on health, gun control, and the moves to take back land that the feds have seized from the states and you have a “cold civil war” with early elements of secession.
    If this pot keeps boiling then November is going to be “interesting.”

  • pragmatic

    This question is coming from a simple man, who hasn’t finished college or studied law of any sort. In addition to the existing legal challenges won’t there be a question of paying for services not rendered. From what I understand the taxes start long before the entire bill is implemented. So, isn’t this similar to a contract dispute, or does federal legislation not fall under that kind of purview? I apologize if this is a stupid question.

    • jenniferjmilleresq

      I’d have to do some legal research to answer it intelligently but for me, I always have to do that if it’s out of my practice area at all. I have never thought of citizen litigation in that framework (although I practice in that area at the state level)…I think it’s great that everyone is brainstorming about legal theories, whether lawyers or not.

    • horizon3

      advance all of the time that may never be used, ala Insurance in it’s various forms, surety bonds, attorney retainers and warranties, etc.
      Example: Auto insurance, you may pay $100s of thousands of dollars in premiums over your lifetime, and never have a claim (benefit).

      • pragmatic

        to be argumentative. Isn’t the difference here is that we’re required to pay? Auto insurance, attorney retainers, and warranties are all optional. This isn’t.

        Granted, we are required to pay for services all the time like WIC or any type of welfare. We can also use those services if the need or desire arises. We’re not penalized if we don’t utilize any of those services, unlike government health care. From what I understand, we’ll be paying for this health care for almost 4 years before all of the services are available.

        To me it’s like being forced to pay full price for cable television and them saying, “Well, we’ll give you a few channels for a few years but you won’t get all of them until 4 years from now. Oh, and if you don’t buy it we’ll penalize you”.

  • Anti_Media

    What about Printz v. US and New York v. US? Any basis there for hope that SCOTUS will overturn?

  • http://thesandsinstitute.org Vassar Bushmills

    And very insightful comments below, only sadly more insightful about the commentors’ state of mind than the Courts.

    Substituting wishes or preferences for facts (of which there are none to date, except for the actual filings) especially here, is not good. Stating an outcome with finality is dangerous, at least in a world where wrong outcomes are punished by being outcast from the community. We all wish that would happen to all the talking heads from TV over the years, from OJ to Global warming, who were wrong, wrong, wrong, but still show up on television.

    This is the start of a series of case (in all likelihood) that will be written and studied for a century, in part, aside from the various legal reasonings that have yet to be revealed, but whether any of the parties will actually go along with the result.

  • juumanistra

    I am actually not too worried about standing: While E.P.A. v. Mass. was an utter disaster for the cause of common sense jurisprudence, the number it did on the Court’s standing jurisprudence is actually a boon here. If the states could manage to get standing to challenge EPA regs based on projections of lost economic activity due to global warming over the course of three decades, they certainly should be able to get it based on the far more imminent harms from a law that will come into full-force in 2014. Well, hopefully. I’m willing to bet dollars-to-donuts that if things went to the Supremes, Ginsberg, Breyer, Stevens, and Souter Sotomeyer would find a way to differentiate it.

    From my lowly 3L vantage point, ripeness will probably be the bigger problem, though bigger ripeness problems have been overcome in the past to sustain court challenges. (I.E. how any of the abortion cases ever got litigated.)

    • jenniferjmilleresq

      who knows 3Ls usually know a lo more current law than attorneys..I’ll check that opinion.

      • juumanistra

        Well, I’m not exactly your standard-issue 3L. President of the local FedSoc chapter and took Environmental Law, where we spent a good three days dissecting E.P.A. v. Mass‘s standing implications.

        But it’s always good to remind our wizened elders who’ve passed the bar that, just because we don’t have our J.D.’s quite yet, we’ve still got our usefulness.

        • eburke
          • leftylurker

            The last year.

          • eburke

            And who says you can’t learn anything from a lib? :-)

        • jenniferjmilleresq

          I need to take some time for a good refreser on federal standing and other uniquely federal jurisdictional issues. I seem to recall that there is basically no federal taxpayer standing and I don’t think there is public interest/public importance standing, but can’t remember much from Con law 16 years ago….

  • allacrossamerica

    As I understand it and trying to verify there are two religious exempt from this insanity. Why not as a member of ANY OF THE RELIGIONS required to abide by this law sue on grounds of religious discrimination given in the First Amendment?

    How can congress pick and chose? And please someone explain to me why congress itself is exempt from many of the laws passed that we the people must abide by?

    The talk of a 28th amendment seems it would generated a bi-partisanship to force these clowns to be under the same rule of law as we are. How in God’s name do they exclude them self from laws we must obey?

  • jaydickb

    I would like to see the HCR law brought down, but even if the individual mandate is held to be unconstitutional, couldn’t it be changed to a tax refund or deduction to get around the constitutional question? Right now, it is framed as a penalty for not having insurance. To me, that is unconstitutional. But, if the premiums were a tax credit of some sort and those without insurance don’t get the tax benefit, then I would see no constitutional issue.

    Of course, this change to a tax benefit would have to pass the congress. That would not be easy now unless done as part of a reconciliation bill. If that is done after January 2011, it too will be difficult.

  • diamonddave

    i’d like to point out we won’t have to repeal anything the fraud has signed if he is removed for ineligibility. it all becomes invalid as he is not actually president. come on people, wake up. there is way out of this mess if we all demand our representatives, courts and military uphold their oath to defend the constitution. WAKE UP PEOPLE, WAKE UP.

    • jenniferjmilleresq

      and we will repeal the bill.

    • eburke

      into office.

      When you’re ready to fight a battle that matters in the here and now…let us know.

    • Richard Mullins

      I don’t see that as a good alternative right now. Let him stay in 2013 and when we have a Republican president, put the whole Obama Admin on trial. That cast of clowns deserves nothing less.

  • hickorystick

    -”The states, in and of themselves, are not harmed by virtue of the fact that individual persons within the state will be unconstitutionally required to purchase health insurance.”-

    By the US spending the expendable income of individuals within states, it leaves less money for running state government. In my state, Washington, it derives a substantial portion of it’s revenue from sales tax. Money not spent within the state, is tax revenue lost.
    The National government is already taking some 20% of every tax dollar spent on health insurance to redistribute to others who can’t pay for insurance. The states so far have gone along with this racket because they get a cut of the action. Now that state budgets are hurting, hopefully they will re-think allowing the fed to farm tax dollars from the states. The Governers have enjoyed the US Congress raising taxes n the states, and sending some of it back, because they can go before the voters and say they increased services without raising taxes. It’s a great big money laundering scam, that the fed has no right to do, but the states have been allowing.
    Most of this Medicare stuff, as well as Education, is under the authoruity of the states. The feds can only get compliance by buying off the states with laundered money. It also comes with strings that the state rewrite legislation, or condition acceptance of money by accepting unfunded mandates. The Govenors need to grow a set and stand on their own two feet.
    If states take back there own autonomy, it will require cuts in services, and, here’s the explosive part, raising state taxes. Our own aggresiveness towards the T-word, is killing state sovereignty. If we choose to live as independant states again, we will have to pay more money at the state level to avoid paying more taxes in the products we buy, and at the federal level.

  • chabsentia

    I have mentiomed the same thing as Horizon 3 in many other posts.Both sides have trampled on the U.S. Constitution for decades. The Commerce clause has been used in Congress to to justify cases when it applied and also when it didnt apply. There is not been any challenges in either case, Therefore the Commerce clause has become to broad. Horizon 3 states that if the Commmerce clause is rendered void in this instance then previuos cases become Null and Void. I had mentioned in several other posts that rendering it void in this case would make it possible to challenge other decisions on the Commerce clause. Six of one thing and a half dozen of the others. Same thing. I dont think that all other Commerce cases would become Null and Void automatically,however, they would be abled to be challenged on a case by case basis and become Null and Void. The States would do better to challenge on more specific measures such as giving preference to certain religions etc which would be contrary to the General Welfare clause. And I didnt have to go to Berkely Law school to figure it out.

    • horizon3

      :-D

  • mutantone

    As a service connected disabled Veteran I have a contract with the United States Government to care for my disability and now they are going to change that and charge me. That is a violation of the contract under which I volunteered to serve my country.
    ?The truth is more important than the facts.” – Frank Lloyd Wright
    ?Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction.? ? Ronald Reagan
    ID 10 T error in the administration

  • rfpzzzzz

    It seems the best part of law suits here would be to gum the whole health care law up to keep as much as possible from taking effect until after the Nov elections. Courts might notice the change in the will of the people if there is a Dem nullification. GOP, citizens and business should focus on slowing it all down until Nov.

  • lightfootletters

    I would add that the President has no legislative authority by executive order. And, those citizens not paying for health insurance are not covered by the law, even using a very broad definition of the ‘commerce clause.’ Therefore they would be exempt from the current legislation because they are not involved in interstate commerce.

  • devan95

    The American people simply will not obey/comply with this tyrannical monstrosity and it will suffer the same fate as prohibition – and it won’t take 13 years. In the mean time the Mob will establish black market health care: “don worry! afa I break you knee, Louie here gonna get you a knee transplant so fagedaboudit!

  • devan95

    If you want to see the libs do a complete 180 on the Constitutionality of the individual mandate, just suggest that the next one will be that every American has to purchase a hand gun! Let the fun begin!

  • horizon3

    You can be sure of is that as soon as this bill was made available to the public, that there are 1000s of lawyers combing through to find every loophole that could possibly be exploited or exposed.
    This recent deal with the corporations exposing costs of unintended consequences, is just the tip of the iceberg.

    I have read it in it’s various forms since December when the Senate passed it, there are things in it that will scare the pants off of many state legislatures and courts. Most of which have absolutely nothing to do with health care.