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The Left’s New Attack On Right To Life: Post Delivery Abortions

Well, after vomiting thoroughly and crying for a while, I’m ready to rant! 

Let’s begin with this article at the Weekly Standard, which discusses an article entitled “After-birth Abortion:  Why Should The Baby Live?” that was written by medical ethicists and printed in the “esteemed” Journal of Medical Ethics last month.  (The original article has been pulled from Internet access since the date it was published.)

The argument made by the authors?—?Alberto Giubilini and Francesca Minerva, both of them affliliated with prestigious universities in Australia and ethicists of pristine reputation?—?runs as follows. Let’s suppose a woman gets pregnant. She decides to go ahead and have the baby on the assumption that her personal circumstances, and her views on such things as baby-raising, will remain the same through the day she gives birth and beyond.

Then she gives birth. Perhaps the baby is disabled or suffers a disease. Perhaps her boyfriend or (if she’s old-fashioned) her husband abandons her, leaving her in financial peril. Or perhaps she’s decided that she’s just not the mothering kind, for, as the authors write, “having a child can itself be an unbearable burden for the psychological health of the woman or for her already existing children, regardless of the condition of the fetus.”

The authors point out that each of these conditions?—?the baby is sick or suffering, the baby will be a financial hardship, the baby will be personally troublesome??—??is now “largely accepted” as a good reason for a mother to abort her baby before he’s born. So why not after?

“When circumstances occur after birth such that they would have justified abortion, what we call after-birth abortion should be permissible.” (Their italics.) Western societies approve abortion because they have reached a consensus that a fetus is not a person; they should acknowledge that by the same definition a newborn isn’t a person either. Neither fetus nor baby has developed a sufficient sense of his own life to know what it would be like to be deprived of it. The kid will never know the difference, in other words. A newborn baby is just a fetus who’s hung around a bit too long.

As the authors acknowledge, this makes an “after-birth abortion” a tricky business. You have to get to the infant before he develops “those properties that justify the attribution of a right to life to an individual.” It’s a race against time

Oh, yes, by all means…we must eliminate this human being before any claims of awareness can be made.

But they don’t stop there, of course.

The inversion that the argument entails is Swiftian?—?a twenty-first-century Modest Proposal without the cannibalism (for now). Jonathan Swift’s original Modest Proposal called for killing Irish children to prevent them “from being a burden to their parents.” It was death by compassion, the killing of innocents based on a surfeit of fellow-feeling. The authors agree that compassion itself demands the death of newborns. Unlike Swift, though, they aren’t kidding.

They get you coming and going, these guys. They assume?—?and they won’t get much argument from their peers in the profession?—?that “mentally impaired” infants are eligible for elimination because they will never develop the properties necessary to be fully human. Then they discuss Treacher-Collins syndrome, which causes facial deformities and respiratory ailments but no mental impairment. Kids with TCS are “fully aware of their condition, of being different from other people and of all the problems their pathology entails,” and are therefore, to spare them a life of such unpleasant awareness, eligible for elimination too?—?because they are not mentally impaired. The threshold to this “right to life” just gets higher and higher, the more you think about it.

The left has just revealed in all their hideous glory how determined they are to define what “right to life” means within our society.  They are the “elites”.  They are the “intellectuals”.  They are the ones in their own self-defined wisdom who possess the ability to address such issues.  What’s more, they even admit as much in the apology that was posted at the Journal of Medical Ethics, just before the article was pulled into oblivion and hidden from public eyes.

“We are really sorry that many people, who do not share the background of the intended audience for this article, felt offended, outraged, or even threatened,” they wrote. “The article was supposed to be read by other fellow bioethicists who were already familiar with this topic and our arguments.” It was a thought experiment. After all, among medical ethicists “this debate”?—?about when it’s proper to kill babies?—?“has been going on for 40 years.”

Now, for the rant…

I’ve never, ever, called anyone an idiot before in my entire life.  No matter how disgusted I might be or how foolish and ignorant I believed their opinion to be, I just didn’t do it.  But these people are idiots of the highest degree!!!  Dangerous idiots!!

Let’s take a second and think about IPAB, or the Independent Patient Advisory Board that is included in ACA, otherwise known as Obamacare.  If the left is allowed to define for us who does and/or does not have the “right to life”, then they could use this as an excuse to eliminate (although the proper word should probably be exterminate) anyone they choose.

They could stipulate that an amniocentesis is required for any and all pregnant females, for the purpose of drawing genetic material that might identify any genetic defects of the child, and they would be in the position to determine whether or not that child lives or dies.  In such a case, abortion could be mandated.

They could stipulate that human beings who have what would be defined as “special needs” would not be allowed the “right to life”, and that care for these human beings will be prohibited under the law.

They could stipulate that anyone who suffers a traumatic injury that would require highly-intensive specialized health care for long periods of time are not “productive members of society” and therefore should be denied the “right to life”, and provision of care for these citizens would be prohibited under the law.

The list just goes on and on and on the hideous crimes against humanity that could be perpetuated under the guise of “providing for the general well-being of the public”.

Conservatives, we have to get organized against this!  We have to make sure that we are educated and aware as to the facts of any and all efforts being made by the left attacking our freedom to even live and breathe in this nation of ours!

There is only one website that I’m familiar with that contains information about legislative measures that are being pursued to protect all human beings in this nation of ours from the pro-death agenda (and we are now to the point that we can’t call it anything other than “pro-death”) of the left.

http://www.nrlc.org/  (National Right to Life Committee)

If you know of other sites or if there are groups you are aware of that are attempting to play an active role in protecting and preserving the right to life of all citizens in our country, please share that information in the comments.

Thank you for reading.

COMMENTS

  • avagreen

    When doctors talk like this, all I can think of Mengele!

    God help us all!

  • avagreen

    Forgive the thread jack. This article and the news this a.m. just rang a bell.

    Just do a bing research on this subject to see how the libs are trying to cover for him already.

    Planned Parenthood CEO Arrested for Indecent Exposure, Will MSM Report It?

    http://newsbusters.org/blogs/dave-pierre/2012/03/14/planned-parenthood-ceo-arrested-indecent-exposure-will-msm-report-it

    OK. Have to admit it. This is a local story. I know this guy. He and his boyfriend, who also works at PP, are loud proponents of gay rights and defend abortions right and left, as well as being insufferably arrogant about both.
    THIS is what the libs have got their panties in a was about. …..HIS “poor man”.

    A few years ago, this same man/same organization threw away confidential medical records (with names, addresses, diagnoses, SS numbers, phone numbers, etc.) into their dumpster, with nary a slap on their wrists because this same said it was the “patients” that had thrown away their own paperwork, not the organization……into the dumpster, you see.

    He got away with it.

    What a crazy world we live in.

    • lineholder

      The fact that PP has no external oversight that regulates their activities in such a way that they are required to comply with laws such as HIPAA has been major bone of contention for me. I’ve been presenting the case for requiring PP to be regulated just like other health care entities are regulated for…well, for a while now, LOL.

      • avagreen

        a big fat headache that seemed to create more problems that it solved.

        Didn’t know that PP wasn’t covered. WTH? Too bad. Doesn’t make any sense at all.
        No wonder Tony was so blase about it……..but he did quite frankly lie about the situation.

        >>>>When one of the patients whose records had been thrown away was called, she said that she hadn’t been at the clinic for over a year and certainly wouldn’t have thrown away her paperwork.

        • lineholder

          Technically, they should be classified as a office-based surgery provider, because they often do either D&C or D&E invasive procedures, along with administering general anesthesia

          But they haven’t been held to meeting the same standards other office-based surgery centers have to meet. Then PP went after setting up their accreditation agency to operate within the abortion industry, which could give them another way out. Some states are trying to rectify this, but every time they attempt to do so, PP cries about “denying women their rights”. You know how that one goes.

          • Jack_Savage

            And you know the sick thing? After railing on about “back alley abortions” for decades, that seems to be what you get when you go to Planned Parenthood.

          • lineholder

            I don’t know if you are familiar with the Dr. Gosnell case or a second case that has come out this year, but in both cases, the physicians involved were guilty of gross negligence. And in Gosnell’s case, he’s been convicted of 8 counts of muder. (7 infants and one adult)

            Also, if you’re interested in the topic of regulatory measures (or the lack thereof) being placed on PP, I wrote a 5-part series about this a few months ago. It’s called “Abortion Onion”. It peels back the superficial layers of arguments that PP proponents use to justify their actions in a way that reveals some of their hidden motivations (including financial).

            I know that Conservatives in general are against regulatory measures, but this is one situation where they’re badly needed. These people are getting away with cold-blooded murder.

          • avagreen

            ………about this facility and HIPPA.

            Did this reporter make the same mistake that I did?
            http://www.lifenews.com/2003/11/22/state-231/
            That the Lubbock television station found private medical documents outside Planned Parenthood doesn?t come as a shock to one pro-life attorney.

            “Abortion facilities should clean up their own houses before they attack the motives of state legislatures and officials protecting the health of women seeking abortions,” Nikolas Nikas, General Counsel of Americans United for Life, told LifeNews.com. “This incident reveals that abortion facilities have greater potential for violating patient confidentiality than common sense state regulations aimed at protecting women from the risk of substandard care.

            The new HIPAA Act covers the privacy medical records and their proper disposal. A violation of the law could result in fines of $50,000 or more or jail time.

          • lineholder

            Under normal circumstances in health care, violating HIPAA is a big deal. I’ve seen health care orgs go to extreme lengths to ensure that patient privacy and confidentiality is protected as it is required by the law.

            There hasn’t been any oversight over the abortion industry (and it is an industry) in the same way that other areas of the health care industry or health care-related industries are exposed to. They’ve been allowed to do whatever they want for the most part.

            Accreditation reviews and audits are a mechanism that is used to provide oversight. Now that PP is setting up their own accreditation organization and gaining this status in various states, they get to perform oversight reviews of their own agencies that bring in the dough for them! And we can pretty well count on it that if it means they’ll lose money by being honest, they’re going to lie through their teeth!

  • http://www.sourceoftitle.com skymutt

    Whether this is on anyone’s “agenda”… well, let’s just say that I suspect that the authors are getting significant pushback and very little support for this nonsense about killing a newborn (even a perfectly healthy one!) because it might cause hardship on the parents. That is nuts.

    • lineholder

      Yeah, it is nuts! It’s scary nuts. And these are the kinds of periodicals that play an active role in establishing public policy, which makes it even more dangerous.

      There’s a difference in how Conservatives approach things and how people on the Liberal end of the spectrum tend to approach things, skymutt. If one of our own went off the deep in spouting this type of idiocy (and I’m sorry, but that’s what it is), we’d be calling them on it. Big time. At the top of our lungs.

      We don’t see people on the Liberal end of spectrum doing that with that own very much. That presents something of a problem and causes us to be that much more wary and to question things that much more.

    • Melody Warbington (rwm52)

      Where’s the significant pushback? What are the Kos Kids saying these days?

      The left overwhelmingly supports abortion in and halfway out of the womb for any baby, be it healthy or otherwise. Why should a little more geography stand in the way?

      A couple in Oregon was just awarded a $2.9 million judgment for a “wrongful birth” suit. Not wrongful death, mind you. Wrongful birth. The parents have a 4 year old daughter who is not perfect, so they sue because they couldn’t “terminate the pregnancy.”

      The full story is here.

      • http://www.sourceoftitle.com skymutt

        It was mentioned in one of the links that the article was removed from where it was originaly published, which let me to suspect that there had been pushback against the authors and/or the publication. I have not dug deeply for supporting evidence, and I am not privy to the internal debates of the medical ethics community, so make of that what you will.

        As I have already said the comment below (which I meant as a reply to lineholder’s comment below), I am very critical of the lack of discussion, much less pushback, on DailyKos or other similar sites regarding any issue that crops up which might not be easy or convenient for them to use for political purposes. If a political topic does not score points for the left, they are generally not supportive of someone who even brings it up.

        The left overwhelmingly supports abortion in and halfway out of the womb for any baby, be it healthy or otherwise.

        Well, I must not be “the left” then, because I do not support that view. Without getting bogged down into specifics, because I have not sat down and thought through every possible scenario, I would support various significant restrictions on middle and late term abortions. I am comforable with allowing these restrictions to be established by state legislatures elected by the people.

        A couple in Oregon was just awarded a $2.9 million judgment for a ?wrongful birth? suit. Not wrongful death, mind you. Wrongful birth. The parents have a 4 year old daughter who is not perfect, so they sue because they couldn?t ?terminate the pregnancy.?

        In the case you brought up, it was a jury of people who reached the decision, after hearing the evidence. I can understand why you find the decision offensive since you believe abortion at any stage is murder, but abortions are legal, and people have a right to prenatal tests to determine if a child has a genetic birth defect and they can choose to have an abortion based on the outcome of those tests. The law allows you to learn whether your child will have Down’s Syndrome and abort the pregnancy if it does. So, the plaintiffs were acting perfectly legally, it appears, no matter whether you are personally offended by “culling” or whatever term you would apply to what they were doing. They had a right to expect the doctor to perform the test competently, and to report the results truthfully.

        I don’t have the facts about what the doctor did wrong that resulted in the patient being misinformed about the prenatal test. It is possibkl that I would found that the doctor to have been negligent. So, without having seen the evidence and without having been in that jury room, I can’t say that I share your view that the decision is patently offensive on its face.

  • David123

    That would be a fatal error.

    • Agelaius

      that remain unborn because of the easy access to birth control and our society’s permissiveness toward sex. I’m glad to see my party (well, at least Rick Santorum) stand up for a culture of life, particularly for the beginnings of life. I know it’s a hard sell, but Griswold was incorrectly decided. I think we should give states the right to ban both abortion and restrict birth control if the people wish it.

  • http://www.sourceoftitle.com skymutt

    The slogan they use is that they are a “reality-based community”. Only a few there take that to heart, unfortunately.. the majority will accept those things that fit their world view, whether they are true or not. There is a small and dwindling number of people there who call out the excesses and indulgences as a matter of course, and a larger number of people who probably think they do that, but they really do not, or they might do it once to say Aha! Look how fair I am compared to right wingers! And then there is the overwhelming majority who aren’t interested in any criticism at all– I think a common belief is that they are under such attack from their enemies on the right, that any self-critical activity, even if it might be valid, just serves the purposes of those enemies. The exception is that it is opular to criticize from the left. Most challenges involve people polishing their lefter than left bona fides.

    From what I have seen of RedState, I would say that it appears similar. It was mentioned to me in that long thread yesterday that the birthers were tossed out of here, like I was supposed to be impressed by that. It just reminded me of DailyKos banning 9/11 truthers– simply a smart business move to get rid of a persistent minority that had become an embarrassment. Moves like that might improve the signal to noise ratio, but they really don’t touch site culture or lessen the “echo chamber” factor.

    I’d be interested if you want to point out a couple examples that demonstrate how the right polices their excesses better than the left.

    And granted, it is a primary season, and people’s attention is probably even more focused more on winning than fairness right now.

    • Jack_Savage

      Here’s a teensy little example of “how the right polices their excesses better than the left.”

      For instance, when we protest, we take out the proper permits, go where we are allowed to go, clean up after ourselves and refrain from defecating on police cars, urinating in churches and raping women.

      As far as self-critical activity goes, it is laughable that you mention primary season. With all the vetting and arguments about GOP candidates that goes on around here – which you have happily participated in – I would say that a three year old would recognize that as self-critical activity.

      Your time would be much, much better spent trying to curb the excesses of your own kind rather than lecturing to us here.

      • http://www.sourceoftitle.com skymutt

        Arguing about candidates in the primary isn’t quite what I was talking about. If it was, though, the DailyKos primary war in 2008 was just like the 2012 primary war here, so you still got nothin’, Jack.

        • Jack_Savage

          Now that is a really interesting stance. Looking forward to a little back-up on that one.

        • Jack_Savage

          …then challenging those who are here to prove it’s not is also an interesting stance, and I look forward to a little back up on that one as well. Actually, I’m not. I’m going to bed. I’ll let others be persuaded on how the Tea Party is as bad as the Occupy movement, and how Redstate is as bad as DailyKos. Almost sorry I’ll miss it, though.

          You’re moving along right on schedule though – race card played? Check. Moral equivalency of right to left? Check. GOP candidates having “fringe views”? Check.

          You guys do stick to the template in disciplined fashion, I’ll give you that.

          • http://www.sourceoftitle.com skymutt

            We’re done, Jack. No more responses to your comments from me.

          • Jack_Savage

            You make accusations that the right is as bad as the left, ask for an example, and when given an obvious one can’t seem to call on that towering intellect to refute it. You say that Redstate is as bad as Daily Kos, after about three minutes here and years there (I thought you didn’t hang out at liberal sites, by the way?) then slink away, hoping no one will notice what you just said.

            Not one single time have you addressed a point that was uncomfortable to you. Not once. You want your little debate society to play by your rules and do things your way. And this is a perfect example.

            Victim card? Check. And just because you are not engaging do not think for a minute I won’t be around calling you out on crap like this.

          • http://www.sourceoftitle.com skymutt

            If you prefer to think of it this way, I can’t. I was warned by a moderator to basically tone it down. Someone like you is going to call me an idiot 10 times, and I’m going to finally respond and call you an idiot one, and I’ll be the one tossed off the site.

            And, I’m just not inclined to take you on on your terms anyway. If you’ll notice, if people treat me halfway decently, it’s a different matter entirely.

          • Jack_Savage

            That is the issue. Either back up the accusations you made, or admit you can’t. It’s that simple. Here is what I said:

            “So you are arguing that Tea Party protests and Occupy protests were the same?
            Now that is a really interesting stance. Looking forward to a little back-up on that one.”

            and

            “Also skymutt, arguing that RedState is the same as Daily Kos
            ?then challenging those who are here to prove it?s not is also an interesting stance, and I look forward to a little back up on that one as well. ”

            Now I know you can spell the word “idiot” with some of the letters in what I wrote, and maybe you think because of that there was a coded message, but I would prefer you answer the question. If you can.

            Or maybe you know that both of those accusations are typical leftist lies, and if you defend what you truly believe you will be banned. Your schtick is to pick, and prod, and make us defend, while at the same time hiding behind the skirt of decorum and the “fear” of being banned whenever someone asks you to elaborate on what is truly a load of crap.

            And you know what the really funny thing is? You’re not that original. Every now and then someone will come through here, engaging and clever, planting little liberal bombs while being oh-so respectful, and then the mask slips off and they get banned for being the leftist that they are. Deal with it.

          • http://www.sourceoftitle.com skymutt

            …. made here, that conservatives are better at dealing with their own when they go too far. (This may be confusing because I erroneously posted my reply as a new thread instead of a reply.) I merely returned with the less partisan opinion that both sides were about the same– hardly the extreme accusation you are making it out to be! How is it a “leftist lie” to opine that the left is just as bad as the right as far as dealing with anything that is inconsistent with their philosophy?

          • lineholder

            If you recall, you and I were both in agreement that the mentality expressed by the medical ethicists (displayed in the above diary) was “nuts”. It is nuts.

            My emphasis on the time is that people on the right end of the political spectrum would not consider supporting people who are this “nutty”, especially when it comes to having a direct influence on public policy decisions, with the reason being that it isn’t in the best interest of this nation or its people to do so. It wouldn’t matter to us one whit whether they are “our own” or not. We’d still call a spade a spade, and speak the truth.

            The left does NOT do that to the extent that we do, skymutt. They do operate more within the context of pre-determined goals, i.e. an agenda, and if “nutty” positions will allow them to accomplish and achieve their goals, then they allow the “nutty” positions to not only go unnoticed but they also encourage this type of behavior. The general mindset being conveyed is that the end justifies the means, and our nation’s future is of lesser importance than achieving those goals.

          • http://www.sourceoftitle.com skymutt

            You’ve just pretty much repeated your assertion that the right is better than the left in this regard. Well, the left naturally asserts just the opposite, so that’s a stalemate. Let’s see some evidence. I asked for a couple examples from off the pages of RedState “that demonstrate how the right polices their excesses better than the left.” Cany you provide examples to illustrate your claim?

          • JSobieski

            Compare comments about Ron Paul on RS to comments about Kucinich on DailyKos.

            Open eyes. Use Brain.

          • JSobieski

            and such comments would have been responded too with far more banal emotional outbursts of no intellectual value.

          • http://www.sourceoftitle.com skymutt

            Kucinich’s positions are far closer to conventional progressive positions than Ron Paul’s are to conventional conservative positions. At any rate, Kucinich never attracted the national following that Paul did.

            In fact Ron Paul really has no comparison on the left that I can think of, except… Ron Paul! A certain sect have openly advocated for Ron Paul from a left perspective because they view his stances on foreign policy, the drug war, civil liberties, the Federal Reserve, etc. to be superior to Obama’s positions, which they see as unacceptable on all these issues.

            It appears that Redstate had the same response to those who advocated openly for Ron Paul as DailyKos did– they were banned on both sites.

            Agreed that the piling on of banned or soon to be banned “trolls” on DailyKos has no value, and has no direct equivalent here, but I believe that is because of the differences in the site software. On DailyKos, “trusted users” can easily find the comments that have been “hide rated”– and therefore can find the “troll’s” comments and pile on. In many cases, the “troll” is in fact a troll, but on occasion, it is simply a conservative who wants make their points civilly and in good faith.

            I liked it when conservatives came over to DailyKos and were willing to engage. Here is an example of how I treated such a conservative in one of my diaries– look for the exchange between myself and Kaos Klerik here. This is the way I think things should be.

          • acat

            too long ago for there to be a DailyKos reaction.

            Mew

          • http://www.sourceoftitle.com skymutt

            Are LaRouchies really welcomed anywhere? By their own mothers maybe?

          • acat

            for two reasons.

            First, just …ewww.

            Second, whether they’re welcomed anywhere isn’t germane. What does matter is that they’re a reasonable Dem parallel to the more crazy of Ron Paul’s followers.

            The question is whether a LaRouchie would last longer on Daily Kos than a Paulistine on Red State. I’d put my money on the latter…

            Mew

          • lapert

            I have no idea how they would be/are treated on Daily Kos, but at least the Democrat party had the good sense to refuse to recognize him as a party member and refused to seat any of the delegates he got in primaries. If the Republican party had the good sense to do the same with Paul we would all be better off.

          • aesthete

            that the right — I would note Buckley as a prominent one, but there were others — made a conscious effort to move away from racism against blacks, anti-Semitism, and McCarthyism (all of which were real problems on the right) in a real and open way. There was no similar movement away from socialism and communist apologia on the left; it all just petered out as the USSR started collapsing.

            I don’t know any conservatives for whom support of racist policies, the Jim Crow South, apartheid Africa, or European pogroms are considered acceptable. There is no existing human rights abuser today which is considered acceptable for conservatives to support; leftists, OTOH, find it acceptable to support and applaud illiberal regimes in Venezuela/Latin America, in Africa (many of the one-party states), and in other areas of the world. I don’t think we need to discuss the left’s romance with Stalinism and the various one-party communist and socialist regimes abroad during the Cold War.

            I don’t think someone should have the historical pedigree of his movement or ideological associates held against him, provided that he is willing to distance himself from them. However, I do not see reason to scrub said pedigree from the historical record.

          • civil truth

            .

          • trickamsterdam

            1. Whichever monarch is running Saudi Arabia (I know someone just died but the names are all moonspeak…maybe it was the son not the father?)

            2. Karzai (leader who dresses like a pimp icecream salesman and rules over the world’s biggest vacant lot and the only color in the sand and ice is the bloodstains of our best and brightest usually under 25)

            3. It’s true that he’s not there “today” but a lot of people wanted to keep propping up the old dude in Egypt and if there had been a peaceful transition they would have propped up his son.

            Note: Anyway conservatives were OK w/ propping Hosni up for 30 years so let’s not let an accident of history act as an escape hatch for our morality…he was propped up (i.e. had “support”).

          • aesthete

            Nobody on the right says we should emulate either of those folks.

            I think it’s terrible that we support either of those two gentlemen, but it’s not on the same level as the worship of Venezuela or these other thug states.

          • trickamsterdam

            Well the word you initially used was “support” not “admire”.

            But I’d say if we support people we don’t admire that’s not very good evidence that the American Right is either smarter or more moral on the issue of foreign policy than the American Left…quite the opposite really.

            Sorry, pet peeve of mine. I’m not really into this Pax Americana or whatever it is we’re trying to do (what is it we’re trying to do?…something about sending girls to school and preventing people from being thrown into giant paper shredders?…and it cost a trillion dollars or something?).

            Sorry I tuned out after the third General got fired and haven’t kept up. Hope Kabul looks a little better than Detroit…actually no I don’t.

            Note: I’m pretty sure based on your posts you’re not in favor of these wars either. But I think the idea that conservatism is superior morally to liberalism is mostly vanity. Yes it will work better if properly executed…but it never is. Why? Because conservatives are not morally superior to liberals. If we were we’d balance the budget (yeah it’s possible even w/ only the House).

          • aesthete

            but I do genuinely think that it’s to our credit that we aren’t constantly enraptured by whatever obviously odious regime is out there, as seems to happen to leftists quite a bit. My choice of wording was poor I agree; sorry about that. I don’t think our politicians or media figures are any more moral than those on the left, but I do think that the rank-and-file, and the basic philosophy of conservatism, does lend more towards conservatives not being swayed by these sorts of movements than is the case with our friends on the left.

            You’re right about me not being a fan of our current foreign policy, especially as it relates to the ME. Our foreign policy in the post-Cold War era takes after the paternalistic “white man’s burden” mold far too often for my liking. As far as I can tell, it’s having mixed results for the folks we’re imposing this philosophy on abroad, and simply terrible ones for our own country. Too many things we do abroad are short-term and don’t accurately diagnose the problems or the players accurately to begin with. I could see the utility in supporting bad players abroad during the Cold War. Now? Not so much.

          • http://www.sourceoftitle.com skymutt

            the right supported both Saddam Hussein and the mujahadeen in Afghanistan back when Osama Bin Laden was a “freedom fighter” instead of a “terrorist”.

          • streiff

            we fought the grotesque series of lies you are peddling during the Iraq War. I’m not going to do it again.

            The policy of the United States until 1990 was to treat Iraq as a counterweight against Iran. The fact that Iraq was equipped with Soviet weapons should be a clue as to who their patron was.

            The policy of the United States after the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan was to arm anyone who was killing Russians. The mujaheddin included the Niorthern Alliance.

          • http://www.sourceoftitle.com skymutt

            mainly in response to the commenter’s “left’s romance with Stalinists” line, to illustrate that either side can come up with a laundry list of whatever bad guys the other side “supported”. I should have put “support” in quotes in my comment– my error. Often what is deemed “support” is thin, temporary, and amounts to playing one enemy off against another to achieve a balance of power, as you point out.

          • JSobieski

            Moreover, right-wing versions of the “romance” you describe are rare.

            Maybe Pinochet falls into that column. Maybe Noriega.

            Of course, a Republican took Noriega out and Pinochet happened in the context of a Cold War in which Democrat politicians were fawning over hoodlums from various places in Central and South America.

            Sorry, but there is no equivalence between a flawed physician trying to combat poison and an assassin who purposely injects the poison.

          • JSobieski

            There is no equivalent to that on the right . . . PERIOD.

          • streiff

            Stalin was widely praised by the American left at the time. Walter Duranty won a Pulitzer Prize for the New York Times by proving there was no famine in the Ukraine. The CPUSA and much of the left, to the extent they were different groups, supported the Stalin Ribbentrop Pact that carved up Poland and committed the Baltic States to 5 decades of Hell.

            Saddam,, on the other hand, really wasn’t liked by anyone. Carter’;s NSC chief gave Saddam a deliberate green light for the invasion of Iran and Bush’s ambassador, the heroically dense April Glaspie, gave an unwitting go ahead for the invasion of Kuwait. It was the American and European Left, however, who did every thing possible to undercut UN sanctions imposed on Iraq after the Gulf War and to hamstring the weapons inspections…. oh, wait… a pattern is emerging here.

          • aesthete

            that the elements of the Mujahideen that the US and Pakistan funded were the home-grown ones. The Sauds were the ones who heavily bankrolled foreign fighters, including OBL. There’s no proof that we did so. The groups we funded, for the most part, became part of the Northern Alliance — which not only had a better human rights record than the Taliban (though really, who doesn’t), but also was our ally in deposing the Taliban years later. The only failure here is the failure of people who repeat oft-made claims with no proof attached to them.

          • civil truth

            The former repudiated by the vast majority of the right; the latter feted and applauded by the left.

          • Jack_Savage

            He wants the focus to be on us, because he cannot / refuses to respond when the focus is on him.

          • lineholder

            My own error and no one else’s. But upon realizing it earlier today…that’s why I decided to leave it be.

          • Jack_Savage

            And skymutt may be too – I don’t know. The problem is he is here in bad faith – he says he wants to debate, but only on why WE need to police ourselves or why WE don’t have any candidates that are “presidential material” or why WE are like DailyKos, and then asks us go at it from his rules and perspective.

            He admits he is an Obama supporter and Democrat, and should be given due credit for that, but thinks that honesty gives him some license here. However, in my view those are sickening, un-American and indefensible positions, thus my harsh attitude towards him. So I am left following an Obama supporter who accuses me of being a racist around a conservative website which is the only one I post to, because it is a lie and an accusation I take extremely seriously – much, much more so than he realizes.

            Long story short – as I said, you are a good and decent person. Don’t get yourself dragged down.

          • Jack_Savage

            But I must ask you again – you compared RedState to DailyKos, and have provided no back up. You have said that the left and right are equal in terms of policing their own, and when I gave you an example of where that was clearly not true, you again ignore it and try desperately to shift the focus back to us.

            Again, simple questions. Maybe you should try to answer them. Again, and again, and again, you won’t, because you can’t. It’s sad, and shows the state of affairs on the left.

            Accusing me of racism based on the very thinnest of reeds, interpreted as such only by you, is the only thing you have to flog, and is actually what you are desperately clinging to. Criticize Obama = racist. Yeah, we know. Heard it before. It is sad, and pathetic, and so very, very predictable.

          • http://www.sourceoftitle.com skymutt

            I’ve already said that I am not going to reply to your comments on your terms, because of your repeated insults. This should explain why your demands that I defend this or that go without response. Your constant presence every time I post is annoying. I called you on your racist comment and your ensuing comments in which you kept contradicting yourself, and you don’t like it. Get over it, or don’t– I don’t care.

            This is my last reply to any comment you make. My self discipline has been lacking and I have replied to you a couple more times than I should have. I have hardened my resolve and will not make this mistake again.

          • Jack_Savage

            You made the charges. Defend them. That’s it.

            If that is too much for you, admit it. That’s all. Then move on.

            As far as the racism goes, you didn’t call me out on it. You invented it. You lied about it then, and you are lying about it now.

            And FWIW, I have much, much better things to do than deal with someone who is intentionally lying about me and my position, but I am forced to. You crossed a bright line that is a very, very serious one with me, so get used to the screen name, pal. You’ll be seeing a lot of it

          • http://www.sourceoftitle.com skymutt

            I accept.

            Here are my specific terms–

            I will:

            1.) respond on Tea Party vs.Occupy in good faith

            2.) read any response you give

            3.) respond to that response, if any, so long as you respond in good faith.

            4.) never again mention the “Kenyan bloodlines” thread.

            In return, you will

            1.) not respond to my posts

            2.) not “warn” other users about falling into my “traps” or similar

            I think this is a good deal for us both.

          • Jack_Savage

            And I am considering it, if only for the sake of the children.

            “This is my last reply to any comment you make. My self discipline has been lacking and I have replied to you a couple more times than I should have. I have hardened my resolve and will not make this mistake again.”

            Sounds like me when it comes to chips and soda at tournament time.

            Gotcha.

            Anyway, seriously, I won’t be around for several days as I am traveling, so it looks like you caught a break since I’ll be off the job for a while. Don’t worry about the carefully crafted response. I’ll assume you had one, and you can assume I had a great response to yours. Actually, assume mine was better.

            As for your bargain, we’ll just have to see how it goes. Hopefully the little tune-up I got at church today will stick with me. For both our sakes. And, you know, the sake of the children.

            And as for #4, the big fundraiser my family helped with and attended last night to bring relief to a certain East African country was a great success, although my suit coat was a bit tight.

            Funny how when you believe someone is one thing, they really are quite another, huh?

            Kindest friggin’ regards,
            J. Savage

          • http://www.sourceoftitle.com skymutt

            I really was intending to not comment anymore, but this looked like an opportunity to end our little feud, so I took it.

            To be honest, I am not feeling too charitable towards you. I really do not think that your charitable activities, whatever they may be, give you license to say the things you said the other day about the president, whether you think it was racist or not. Moreover, you seem to badly want respect, but you gave none to me, right from the start. Then there’s the fact that you’ve followed me around and poisoned my interactions with others. The whole affair has gotten the moderators antennae perked up, which really has restricted how I can respond.

            Not sure what to make of this comment of yours. If it is an olive branch, the three or four backhands contained in it really dilute the effect.

            Anyway, the whole combination of events has made me decide to stop trying to post here. It’s best if I just leave.

          • Jack_Savage

            Let me explain the comment to you, using numbers for the different sections:

            #1 That was funny. I mean, isn’t everything for the children?
            #2, 3 and 4 That was funny too. I mean REAL funny. Come on, man. Admit it.
            #5 First part true, last sentence a jab. But not a mean one. Mostly trash talking.
            #6 Dead serious, and true. Last sentence, funny. Refer to #1.
            #7 Ironic, no? Kind of out of character for your caricature of me, don’tcha think? I thought it very amusing personally.
            #8 True – right? Could apply to both of us.
            #9 Funny again. Like I was forced to type it by my better angels. Jeez. Come ON.

            And one last thing – my charitable activities were mentioned only because of the high irony. That’s it. They give me license for nothing. The thing that gives me license to say what I feel about your President is that big old piece of parchment behind the glass at the Archives. The one your friends referred to when George W. Bush was in the White House.

            Interact away, or not. It’s up to you. I’ll be out for a while, so it matters not to me.

          • Jack_Savage

            I consider the feud ended, at least on my part. Proceed as you will.

            Best,
            JS

          • http://www.sourceoftitle.com skymutt

            Sorry the way I took your olive branch was not as you intended it, and I appreciate your willingness to put this to rest. I doubt I will resume participation, but for reasons other than yourself.

    • Vegas_Rick

      As just one example.

      • http://www.sourceoftitle.com skymutt

        Congratulations!

        Getting rid of a person with Nazi ties is easy. The real question is, how are you folks dealing with racism within your movement in general? In a very active thread I was involved in a couple days ago, a RedStater made a comment that showed obvious racism. Only one RedStater called him on it.

        • Jack_Savage

          Seriously.

      • Jack_Savage

        Notice how he always keeps the focus on us, and never answers an uncomfortable question. Read the thread he so proudly references, and tell me if you think my comments are racist. Then ask yourself what kind of person you are engaging here.

  • http://www.sourceoftitle.com skymutt

    … to this. I’ve made that error a couple times now! Irritating :-p

    • http://www.sourceoftitle.com skymutt

      I am not sure what I am doing wrong. Sorry about cluttering the diary– I swear I am hitting “reply to this” and commenting, and the comments are starting new threads.

  • Ann2012

    Although maybe I shouldn?t be surprised since I?ve heard testimony on CSPAN I believe of a nurse who talked about how babies that survived abortions were just left in the room until they died and she would try and comfort them while they were dying.

    You mentioned that you try not to call people idiots, I usually try to avoid using the word hate, but I hate and despise the Left who accepts this type of thing, they are no different than Nazis or slave traders or any of the other barbaric human beings we?ve had to deal with in the past.

    I didn?t realize until I came to RedState and started reading about all the things that conservatives argue about, that we were so divided as a party.

    I don?t know if you?re a Christian but I view everything in terms of the battle between good and evil throughout our world and it makes sense for evil to try and divide the conservatives this way so we are weakened and cannot win the really important battles (such as what you wrote about).

    Thanks for posting this, it?s very important that people understand what?s going on.

  • Repair_Man_Jack

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/blog/2012/mar/14/human-engineering-climate-change-philosophy

    You can completely reengineer human beings so that they use less carbon. Make them smaller, lighter and give them cat’s eyes so they need less light at night!

    Give them pills so that they get nauseous whenever they eat steak!

    • Repair_Man_Jack

      According to one Pro-Human Extermination Activist, Two-Out-of-Three Ain’t Bad

      • lineholder

        Quotes from the article:

        ?I love abortion. I don?t accept it. I don?t view it as a necessary evil. I embrace it. I donate to abortion funds. I write about how important it is to make sure that every woman has access to safe, legal abortion services. I have bumper stickers and buttons and t-shirts proclaiming my support for reproductive freedom. I love abortion,? DelBalzo declares. ?

        (snip)

        ?Safe and legal are concepts I fully support, but rare is something I cannot abide. I understand the theoretical mindset: it is better for a woman to prevent an unwanted pregnancy than to bear the physical and financial burden of an abortion. While my own abortion involved very little pain and a minimal financial expense, one which my ex-boyfriend was willing to share with me, even I can admit that using condoms or the pill is preferable to eight weeks of nausea and weight gain,? she writes. ?However, there is no need to suggest that abortion be rare. To say so implies a value judgement [sic], promoting the idea that abortion is somehow distasteful or immoral and should be avoided. Even with affordable, accessible birth control, there will be user errors, condoms that break, moments of spontaneity. The best contraceptive access in the world won?t change the fact that we are merely human and imperfect in our routines.?

        People like this woman have mentally lost it, RMJ. They are the ones who provide a much greater threat to society than those of us who value life as being something precious, to be protected at all costs, will ever be!!!

  • jdaman

    but unsurprised. The Left condones infanticide when the baby is in the mother’s womb, it’s a very thin line between infanticide in the womb and infanticide outside of the womb.
    That being said. I hope those Leftist Writers get FIRED and EXILED for this one! What they are talking about is outright, no pretense, flat out murder!

  • Melody Warbington (rwm52)

    my thoughts right at this moment. Suffice it to say that I’m sickened at those who have so little regard for life that they not only support killing the most innocent among us, they also promote it.

    As for calling them idiots, I disagree. They are pure evil. And they will be judged accordingly.

    Thank you, my friend, for continuing to bring these issues to our attention and helping to educate us on what’s going on behind the scenes in the pro choice/eugenics movement.

    • avagreen

      perhaps someone can engineer just a likely reason for their carcasses to not use carbon and such, and can therefore be terminated for just as logical a reason.

      What’s good for the goose……..

      I, for one, certainly consider them to be more dangerous than any unborn and unknown quantity of life. They are known and are found wanting. As least to my line of reasoning and in the present day of comparative reasoning, my view/argument is as good as theirs. *shrug*

  • garfieldjl

    I have High Functioning Autism, they’re saying someone like me is subhuman and shouldn’t have been allowed to live.

    Thankfully they still can’t figure out what causes Autism or how to detect it till around age 2.

    Seriously, I think this is something we can throw right back in their faces.

  • Gretskie

    Here is a clip I think you will find interesting. Please watch.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y2KsU_dhwI

  • fibonacci235

    This is the logical conclusion if you reject the intrinsic value of human life as human life. You’re forced to either reject morality altogether or use some external feature, like intelligence, or reason, or emotion, or awareness. Unfortunately, none of those are universals. Human life is so much richer than any one capability or concept.

    I don’t think we should shun them as people, though. They’re misguided, but at least they’re honestly and consistently misguided. They followed their bankrupt moral system as far as they could and, sadly, the abyss gazed back into their hearts. I pity them, really, and hope that they make their way back from the nihilist wilderness.

    • lineholder

      we’re going to have to watch them like hawks and stand up to them in what ways we can.

      We can’t just give them the benefit of the doubt that they will make a “good” choice or “wise” choice. They’ve lost all sense of conscience. It’s gone.

  • ntrepid

    This stuff needs to be exposed and trumpeted as often as possible?and I only argue that it?s not a new attack, it?s just not hidden anymore.

    I cannot add anything of value so I?ll just direct you to my own, often repeated rant on the subject from just before the 2008 election, elevation, and emboldening of just this type of racialism:

    http://www.redstate.com/ntrepid/2008/11/02/community-organizer-refuted/

    Ntrepid
    Proud Redstate Member since April 2006??