Cheney Doubles Down on ‘torture’ memos.


Release them *all.*

(Via Andrew Malcolm) Former Vice President Dick Cheney has indicated that last week’s disclosure / distraction involving four CIA ‘torture’ memos is critically incomplete, as it fails to give results. He wants the full story released:

“One of the things that I find a little bit disturbing about this recent disclosure,” Cheney tells Hannity, “is they put out the legal memos, the memos that the CIA got from the Office of Legal Counsel, but they didn’t put out the memos that showed the success of the effort. And there are reports that show specifically what we gained as a result of this activity. They have not been declassified.”

“I formally asked that they be declassified now. I haven’t announced this up until now, I haven’t talked about it, but I know specifically of reports that I read, that I saw that lay out what we learned through the interrogation process and what the consequences were for the country.”

“And I’ve now formally asked the CIA to take steps to declassify those memos so we can lay them out there and the American people have a chance to see what we obtained and what we learned and how good the intelligence was, as well as to see this debate over the legal opinions.”

More details here and here. This is not an unreasonable request… if you accept that the primary purpose of the Obama administration was to actually inform the voting public about the program. Alas, it’s not, particularly. They’re actually looking to obscure the matter: after all, it’s not as if they’re really planning to change the original program to any significant, non-cosmetic degree. If they were, they wouldn’t be trying to reassure the CIA that this White House wasn’t planning to treat them as domestic enemies. Which I personally believe, if only because pragmatically speaking the CIA can leak Obama to political death over this, particularly when rendition kicks into high gear.

As AoSHQ notes, the Obama administration has no really good response to Cheney’s gambit. They can either reveal the memos, and risk having the voting public not care some more*… or they can ignore the whole thing, which will do nothing to persuade their own supporters that there isn’t a cover-up/whitewash going on. Well, actually, there is a cover-up going on: it’s the one that the Democrats are engaging in to try to make sure that their base never comes to the realization that they were manipulated for their money and votes.

Which will probably work, too. Said base has certainly been determined to ignore this up to now.

Moe Lane

*A rather straightforward observation which will no doubt cause some consternation in comments. But not as much as this one… which also illustrates a point that I don’t know that I’ve ever made before, and I probably should have. When it comes to the decision of how to prosecute the GWOT, the dispute was never between the progressives and the neoconservatives. It was between the neoconservatives and the outright Jacksonians. Which is why the progressive position is still being ignored in this debate, even though they thought that they had actually won an election or two. The American people don’t really want to reach any sort of understanding of terrorists (”Why do they hate us?”); they just want them dead, or wishing that they were, or at least blowing somebody else up. Military-action-plus-nation-building proved able to successfully restrain just-kill-them; once we have another attack on American soil, outreach-and-understanding won’t stand a chance.

Sorry, but somebody had to say it.

Crossposted to Moe Lane.

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37 Comments Leave a comment

Cheney's right

ajl_mo Monday, April 20th at 10:35PM EDT (link)

If the “enhanced interrogation techniques” resulted in substantial actionable intel let’s see it.

 

I like Cheney

DerKrieger Monday, April 20th at 10:42PM EDT (link)

He has the guts and “I don’t give a damn” attitude to say what needs to be said. I wish more of the GOP would grow a pair and speak up.

“In questions of power, let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution.” - Thomas Jefferson

“I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence (OBAMACARE – mine), the money of their constituents.” – James Madison

I also wish

Joe_Cor Tuesday, April 21st at 8:21AM EDT (link)

his former boss had had a lot more of Cheney in him. Actually, I think the country would be in a far better state today if the names on the Republican Presidential ticket had been flipped in 2000.

 
 

It's on.

redneck_hippie Monday, April 20th at 10:46PM EDT (link)

God I wish the professionals (aka grownups) were in charge.

Amateur Hour so needs to be over.

“We must not lose our faculty to dare, especially in dark days.” - Churchill in March, 1942.

Remember NY-23.

 

It's time we knew

10ksnooker Monday, April 20th at 10:51PM EDT (link)

Since the Obama narrative is we got nothing for it, but our damaged name, then lets see the facts. Cheney called them on this, he said what was obtained was important and prevented other mass attacks.

Inquiring minds have a right to the full story.

 

Pretty much it's only the college kids who bought the "understand the terrorists" spiel

aesthete Monday, April 20th at 10:52PM EDT (link)

Virtually all other debate was along various conservative/moderate conservative lines, i.e., realpolitik, paleocon, and neocon+Jacksonians.

The progressive viewpoint was (rightfully, IMO) analogous to a child sitting at the table while mommy and daddy talk about grown-up stuff.

Guilt is a rope that wears thin.
-Ayn Rand

“I am a freeman in a free state!”
-Last words of Dumnorix, chieftan of the Aedui, 54 BC

Stinking college students

fishbreath Tuesday, April 21st at 1:44AM EDT (link)

Somewhere between 50% and 90% of us are, in fact, idiots, depending on where you sample. <.<

It's a small miracle that our kind has survived so long as a university culture

aesthete Tuesday, April 21st at 1:54AM EDT (link)

Most of us are barely sentient, and it’s frighteningly easy to be considered “erudite” for your age. Basically, if you’re 18-25 and you can communicate semi-coherently, you’re a crowning example of your kind and eligible for scholarships :)

Guilt is a rope that wears thin.
-Ayn Rand

“I am a freeman in a free state!”
-Last words of Dumnorix, chieftan of the Aedui, 54 BC

 
 

I respectfully disagree...

stangmmx Monday, April 27th at 4:49PM EDT (link)

I go to a fairly prestigious University and I can say with confidence that there is an abundance of level headed conservatives. I personally, lean more libertarian, and if I could point to any party that will grow ten fold due to my generation, it is the libertarian party.

It depends on the type of college student you’re talking about. In the arts school (home of dancers, actors, painters, film students, etc) there is overwhelming support for “progressive” viewpoints. In the business school, engineering, science, etc it is the exact opposite.

I hope we’re not trying to compare a bratty child complaining at the table to college students. Its our generation that can learn about this catastrophic presidency and have ample time to prepare for a GOP comeback.

So, please be more respectful to college students. Many of us (such as myself) are specifically going back to grad school to prepare to be future leaders in the business, political, or artistic world. And, in doing so, we carry with us (hopefully after Obamunism) the principals of conservative ideology. Have more faith in us.

 
 

Why now?

ryeinn Monday, April 20th at 10:58PM EDT (link)

What changed that now leads to the call for either of these sets of memo’s (the ones Obama released and the ones that Cheney is calling for release of). If they weren’t safe to declassify until now, what made it possible?

Yes, release these, all of them. I think a policy of if it can be declassified it should be is appropriate. That’s the whole purpose of classification right?

If you are going to reveal the techniques

Jack_Savage Monday, April 20th at 11:02PM EDT (link)

You may as well reveal the results.
Revealing one without the other is typical gutless liberal manipulation, and I am glad Cheney called them on it. What a patriot.

Yes, what exactly did we learn after 183 water boardings in 30 days?

ajl_mo Monday, April 20th at 11:21PM EDT (link)

>You may as well reveal the results.
Yes what were the intel results of 183 water boardings in thirty days of Khalid Sheik Mohammed? I’m guessing that he really started to loosen up after 130 or so.

You are dumb as pile of Bunny turds.

HappyBunny Monday, April 20th at 11:31PM EDT (link)

Actually, you’re dumber.

You Actually Still Give Him Too Much Credit (nt)

IJB Tuesday, April 21st at 1:27AM EDT (link)
 

What?

DONTREADONME Monday, April 20th at 11:36PM EDT (link)

if we waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed 183 times that goes to show that the technique was not effective enough, should have moved on the Japanese water cure received by American POWs during WWII. Yes, I remember.

“The UN is right? you can’t be any more “un”; Than you are right now, the UN is undone, Another mushroom cloud, another smoking gun, The threat is real, the Locust King has come, Don’t tell me the truth; I don’t like what they’ve done, Just give me ammo for the United Abominations”-Megadeth

Who said it wasn't effective?

ajl_mo Monday, April 20th at 11:42PM EDT (link)

>if we waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed 183 times that goes to show that the technique was not effective enough,
*********
Maybe it was very effective. Hopefully VP Cheney has his wish and we’ll soon find out.

Indeed

fishbreath Tuesday, April 21st at 1:56AM EDT (link)

On the one hand, I’m not sure the memos should have been released in the first place. On the other, since the cat is out of the bag, I’m all about full disclosure.

On another note, having taken a psychology course or two (and heaven knows that the most dangerous thing in the world is a *little* bit of knowledge, so I may be wrong here), it is my understanding that a great many psychological effects have an affective and a cognitive component. Response to torture strikes me as that kind of thing.

There’s an affective component: an immediate and emotional response to the torture. Fear and pain kick in, and the subject gives in. There’s also a cognitive component–twice a day for 90 days, at exactly the same times every day, the interrogators come, take you away, and strap you to the bench. Perhaps they’ve put a clock outside your cell so you can tell when it’s about to happen. Eventually, you begin to dread the coming of the time when they come for you, and you realize that your prayers to Allah are going unanswered, and you know that the infidel interrogators are not going to kill you. You get to thinking, and you realize that you can make it stop. You break.

The point is, the immediate psychological effect of torture is less useful and probably more likely to result in false confessions anyway. The way to break a subject who isn’t going to talk isn’t by torture itself–it’s by the dread that rises as the clock ticks toward the appointed time.

Now I’m very interested in seeing the memos, and seeing when/if KSM broke. Maybe I should write some emails to the White House and to Congress.

 
 
 

Who cares? He deserved 183 more. [nt]

bs Monday, April 20th at 11:50PM EDT (link)

Decorum is fo’ suckas

 

That is one water boarding for every 16 who died...

nod90 Tuesday, April 21st at 1:28AM EDT (link)

…in the 9/11 attack planned by KSM.

 

Well, you tell me

Jack_Savage Tuesday, April 21st at 1:54PM EDT (link)

Since you are so deep in the CIA and so very up to speed with the efficacy of enhanced interrogation.

If Cheney gets his way, we’ll find out, won’t we pal? If it were up to me the bastard would look like the Black Knight in the Monty Python skit. And that would have been interrogation #1…

If Cheney gets his way....

ajl_mo Tuesday, April 21st at 2:47PM EDT (link)

>Well, you tell me…Since you are so deep in the CIA and so very up to speed with the efficacy of enhanced interrogation.
********
I’m not. That’s why I support VP Cheney’s request.

>If Cheney gets his way, we’ll find out, won’t we pal?
******
Yes. That’s why I posted in support of Cheney’s position.

 
 
 
 

Excellent point. Now that the methods are blown...

smagar Monday, April 20th at 11:17PM EDT (link)

let’s see what results they achieved.

“Who will stand/On either hand/And guard this bridge with me?” (Macaulay)

 
 

and what is obama official policy

bobojake Monday, April 20th at 11:01PM EDT (link)

shoot’em dead in self defense.
obama you are going to get middle class hardworking Americans killed with your foney polices and manipulation and it ain’t working..

 

Oh, and I love your poker analogy.

redneck_hippie Monday, April 20th at 11:10PM EDT (link)

Let the showdown hand begin.

If Obama knows that the information gained from the ET was lifesaving, of course he won’t want it declassified. And if Cheney knows that he knows, Cheney just drew to a royal flush.

“We must not lose our faculty to dare, especially in dark days.” - Churchill in March, 1942.

Remember NY-23.

 

I go for Cheney!!!!!! Let the battle begin. nt

Rod_Patrick Monday, April 20th at 11:15PM EDT (link)

We'll see who blinks first, Obama or Cheney

Erick Brockway Monday, April 20th at 11:16PM EDT (link)

That said, Obama’s in for a tough one;

Note to lefties;
“Don’t be afraid to see what you see.”
Ronald Reagan


Chip in to get rid of “Babs” (Yes ma’am) Boxer.

Yeah, Erick B. And GWB will be laughing at the background. nt

Rod_Patrick Monday, April 20th at 11:18PM EDT (link)
 

They violated the secrecy. Then let everything be revealed. That's my VP. nt

Rod_Patrick Monday, April 20th at 11:17PM EDT (link)

Yep, if ya got 'em, show 'em. nt

redneck_hippie Monday, April 20th at 11:25PM EDT (link)

“We must not lose our faculty to dare, especially in dark days.” - Churchill in March, 1942.

Remember NY-23.

 
 

Two points...

mbecker908 Monday, April 20th at 11:18PM EDT (link)

1. I wish, daily, that the 2000 ticket had been Cheney/Bush.

2. The policy on the left is “outreach & understanding”, meaning to reach out and believe the BS they tell us about “why”. On the right, our policy should be “understand & outreach”, meaning that we understand they are uncivilized butchers and we should reach out and kill them. In very large quantities.

CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.

Me too. I really wished that Cheney was our candidate in 2008, not McCain. nt

Rod_Patrick Monday, April 20th at 11:24PM EDT (link)

After 8 years of GWB, I don't think Cheny could have won

JoeG Monday, April 20th at 11:48PM EDT (link)

But I sure do wish that Cheney was president all those years.

I'm not so sure

bobojake Tuesday, April 21st at 12:03AM EDT (link)

He would of ripped obama up and not let himcontinual lie.

obama would of wished he had his teleprompter to tell him what to say and it wouldn’t of been there. Today obama had a 6.6 sec lapse trying to figure out his answer about the book the killer dictator shoved down obama throat.

 

I disagree.

Rod_Patrick Tuesday, April 21st at 1:53PM EDT (link)

Last time I looked, it was obvious that we (especially McCain) tried to avoid the discussion of GWB in the last election. It’s like that we were too “ashamed” of him and we were trying to lock him up in the closet.

The last election should have been a chance for GWB to defend himself from all the lies of the left in the last 4 years. GWB should have participated more in the debates. He was actually the subject of the major attacks of the Left against McCain.

McCain’s message was really inconsistent. He didn’t really make a coherent case whether he would swallow or spew GWB, a disgraced President according to the libs and the MSM. Considering the pros and cons, he should have embraced GWB to the fullest. McCain missed a great opportunity of allowing Bush and Cheney to help him in many issues.

Allowing GWB and Cheney to recover their honor against the smear attack of the Left would have been more favorable to McCain. We should have utilized GWB and Cheney more.

GWB should have admitted that his bipartisan approach in the last 4 years cost him everything. GWB should have never signed that TARP 1 Law. GWB should have focused his last few months in the WH in letting the public KNOW what really caused the September Financial Crisis.

GWB and Cheney could have saved McCain in 2008 if we just allow them to wear their old Conservative Badge to help fight the Democrats.

But we left GWB and Cheney in the WH. I don’t really know who was influencing GWB in those days when the TARP1 was being formulated. I suspect that it was a bunch of two-faced Democrats trying to poison the conservative mind of the President. In 2008, we actually lost our sight of GWB. Deep inside, I really believe that the man sitting as President in the WH last 2008 was not the GWB I voted for in 2000 and 2004.

Despite of the above, I still thank the former President for everything. He still deserves the comfort of his newly found private life away from the WH.

As for McCain, I still feel sorry for him.

 
 
 

I'll Be More Interested In This Policy If We Apply It To The Left...

IJB Tuesday, April 21st at 1:28AM EDT (link)

…In this country.

Given the fact that I've long advocated the position

mbecker908 Tuesday, April 21st at 10:49AM EDT (link)

that we are war in this country and that Democrats are, in fact, enemies of the State, you might take an educated guess where I’d come down on that proposition.

CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.

 
 
 

Axelrod is probably telling Politico to get cracking...

smagar Monday, April 20th at 11:19PM EDT (link)

…on those stories from unnamed Republicans who want Cheney to stay quiet.

“Who will stand/On either hand/And guard this bridge with me?” (Macaulay)

 

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