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Release the Crowley/Gates tapes.

By: Moe Lane (Diary)  |  July 27th, 2009 at 07:55 AM  | 

RESIZE: AAA

This comment by Jack Dunphy over the entire Gates brouhaha resonates with me:

So, since the president is keen on offering instruction, here is what I would advise he teach his Ivy League pals, and anyone else who may find himself unexpectedly confronted by a police officer: You may be as pure as the driven snow itself, but you have no idea what horrible crime that police officer might suspect you of committing. You may be tooling along on a Sunday drive in your 1932 Hupmobile when, quite unknown to you, someone else in a 1932 Hupmobile knocks off the nearby Piggly Wiggly. A passing police officer sees you and, asking himself how many 1932 Hupmobiles can there be around here, pulls you over. At that moment I can assure you the officer is not all that concerned with trying not to offend you. He is instead concerned with protecting his mortal hide from having holes placed in it where God did not intend. And you, if in asserting your constitutional right to be free from unlawful search and seizure fail to do as the officer asks, run the risk of having such holes placed in your own.

When the officer has satisfied himself that it was not you and your Hupmobile that were involved in the Piggly Wiggly heist, he owes you an explanation for the stop and an apology for the inconvenience, but if you’re running your mouth about your rights and your history of oppression and what have you, you’re likely to get neither.

…because I was actually in a situation like this once. A couple of friends of mine and I were coming back from a play, and the cops pulled us over because a car just like my friend’s had been involved in an armed robbery; and my friend unfortunately looked a little like the suspect. Fortunately, we were all scrupulously polite, none of us had robbed a retail establishment, and we all had identification indicating that the three of us were two doctors and a library studies grad student, not an armed and dangerous criminal gang – which I’m sure was as much a relief to the cop as it was to us. Given that he was risking his life, and we weren’t.

That’s the point: the cop didn’t know that he was dealing with three people who meant him no harm.  And at the time, we didn’t really think about how this entire situation (which ranged for us from annoying to funny) looked to him.

There are a bunch of people out there who would like to see the tapes of the incident released; I’m one of them, simply because at this point it’s probably the only way to resolve this matter one way or the other.  If the material on them is unfavorable to Officer Crowley, best that we find this out now so that we can do something about it; if it’s not, then the sooner Gates can go back to being a moderately obscure Harvard professor.  I assume that by now there’s going to be allegations of a coverup/whitewash either way that the story resolves.  I also assume that releasing the tapes will help make sure that said allegations aren’t widely named.

So, release the Crowley/Gates tapes.

Moe Lane

Crossposted to Moe Lane.

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COMMENTS

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  • bk

    Because if they backed Gates at all you can bet the Boston Globe or the Times or the Post would have managed to get their hands on them.

    By the same token you could argue that the police could be holding them back because they make the officer look bad, but I think the other scenario is much more likely.

  • erp

    Too late to release the tapes. They’ve already been “edited” to conform to the racist cop scenario. Obama was right about one thing, this is teaching moment. It teaches us that there’s nothing too low for the left to stoop to.

  • mom2oneson

    And you, if in asserting your constitutional right to be free from unlawful search and seizure fail to do as the officer asks, run the risk of having such holes placed in your own”

    I thought he was arrested for cursing at the police officer not for refusing to give an ID?

    I don’t like what he said there. Why should any citizen give more information than what is required? If I was walking or in my home I wouldn’t voluntarily give an ID or say anything more than polite conversation. Many police use intimidation and lie to coerce people into giving them information allowing them to searching their cars or property. This POV is that the police always respects people’s rights and doesn’t make mistakes and they right to shoot someone if they don’t want to be searched without a warrant.

  • mangrilla

    It’s over. I especially hate this story because, loathe as I am to admit it, I agree with Obama on this one.

    Moe, in your story, you say that the cop was relieved to find out that you were doctors and a library studies grad student. However, according to this officer’s report, upon finding out that Gates was a Harvard professor who lived in the house, Crowley called for BACKUP. Now, I don’t know police procedure here, and it’s unclear from the officer’s report. but I can tell you that if I were just getting back from traveling (already a frustrating experience in itself nearly 100% of the time), got reported by a neighbor as breaking into my own house, AND THEN had the officer call for back up even AFTER I’d proven my residence, well… I’d be pissed too.

    I just can’t see any situation where the police officer should have arrested a man standing on his own porch unless he had been disturbing neighbors for a long while, or unless he was prancing around naked. There were people around? Of course there were looky-loos when there are cop cars lined up in a ritzy upscale neighborhood.

    I want to put this in a different perspective, too. I don’t own a gun, but I of course support gun rights. But take a look at nearly any blog post that discusses the restriction of gun rights (well, other than on lefty blogs where everyone shouts for joy), and you’ll see at least one post (I guarantee you’ll see many more than that) that is something to this effect: “Well, if that officer comes to my house to take my gun, he’ll have to speak with Mr. Smith and Mr. Wesson about that.” Why is it that we tolerate, and sometimes rejoice in this kind of bravado, but can’t understand someone being angry over being arrested in their own home for what amounts to talking back to a police officer?

    Of course we all bristle at this story because Gates was so quick to pull the race card. But at the end of the day, Crowley arrested Gates for next to no reason on his own property, and THAT is something that we conservatives should be unhappy about. I am not saying race had anything to do with Crowley’s actions, I definitely don’t believe that. But I still think it was absolutely ludicrous to arrest someone just because they are acting a fool on their own property.

  • marcuscicero

    NT

  • djemi

    Given that I would have then known that this guy was an eletist Harvard hack. Do you know when Gates started with the racist bombs? And given that the Sgt knew a thing or two about profiling wouldn’t you want some BACKUP so that if the incident got blown out of proporsion, you would have other reliable wittnesses, i.e other cops.

  • drguido

    The officer was responding to a breaking and entering call. That gives him the right to inspect the property without a warrant. I doubt the officer was just looking for a reason to go into Gates house.

    He was not initially in Gates house, but on the porch. From even the most liberal accounts, Gates was abusive to the point that Crowley was having difficulty talking on his radio. He went into his house after Gates walked in to get his ID. At that point his ID had not been given and his identity had not been confirmed. The officer was required by procedure to follow as he may have been an intruder holding a hostage or was going to get a weapon rather than an ID.

    As to this being racial profiling- I am sick of hearing about this. We have become so touchy that officers are required to go to classes on racial profiling. And BTW, Crowley teaches that class. The backup was a black officer and a hispanic officer who both confirm Crowley’s account. The hispanic officer was the one who wrote up the account. And now I am falling into this trap. WHO CARES WHAT COLOR ANY OF THE OFFICERS OR GATES ARE?

  • penguin2

    Gates and the officer had to enter the house for Gates to prove his identity and that this was his house. The officer’s full written statement is out there and documents the verbal exchange which was quite heated on Gate’s part. Gates was verbally abusive toward the officer outside. According to other police and other witnesses, Gates was acting in a disorderly manner after being warned several times.

    It is against the law to be disrespectful to a police officer. You have to be polite, answer questions. Being belligerent toward an officer is behavior deemed threatening. Criminals act that way all the time. This officer was professional, with a excellent reputation, he called for back-up because the exchange from the beginning was obviously deteriorating.

    The tapes probably support the officer all the way, that is why they have not been released.

    Can a FOIA be filed?

  • janis

    yet you then go on for paragraphs over how the policeman here was wrong to behave as he did. Policemen face life and death situations every single day. Here in Tennessee, a policeman made a traffic stop because a car had a tail light out. Turns out the vehicle he stopped contained an escaped convict from Mississippi. The guy had been doing time for murder. For his efforts to do his job, the policeman ended up with 4 bullets in him because the escapee was determined not to go back to prison.

    Sgt. Mark Chestnutt lived, thank God, and they did capture the guys who did this. My point is that their jobs are much more complex than we can imagine and we owe them our respect. In a situation such as the Gates thing, Gates had no right to start screaming and yelling. In the community where I live, cops have often ended up cuffing and stuffing people who behave like Gates. To allow them to behave this way can often escalate a situation to violence, but even if that doesn’t happen, it certainly leads to people thinking that you can yell at and insult the cops with impunity. And that does nothing but lead to a lessening of the public’s safety. They should release the tapes and put to rest any doubts.

  • mangrilla

    would have acted foolishly, too, in my estimation. That’s fine, and we can disagree on that and many other things.

    But the real point, though, is that this guy was arrested on his porch for next to nothing. Are you really okay with that? Like I said, I don’t agree with the fact that he immediately called the cop’s actions racist, but I still have yet to find a cogent argument to arrest a person in their house just because they’re obnoxious.

  • LibRick

    Risking “holes placed in your own,” while asserting your constitutional rights seems to be acknowledgment and acceptance of a police state. I don’t think you, me or anyone else here is for that.

    Moe pointed out, “the cop didn?t know that he was dealing with three people who meant him no harm”. I understand this and that’s why I’m always respectful to the police as I bet you are. But, in my own home, I think a police officer or anyone else should be respectful of me and use the utmost discretion. It’s sad that we’ve come to the point where you can be arrested for having the wrong attitude in your own home. Sadder, that so many are for it.

  • bk

    “However, according to this officer?s report, upon finding out that Gates was a Harvard professor who lived in the house, Crowley called for BACKUP.”

    When he found out he was a Harvard professor, he called Harvard police. Whether as a courtesy or because that’s their normal procedure I wouldn’t know, but it certainly wasn’t to call them as backup officers in the sense that we normally think of it, i.e. this situation is out of control and I need help.

  • randy streu

    nt

  • mangrilla

    Sorry for not explaining myself. I meant that I don’t know procedure in calling back up, and I would assume Gates didn’t either. Without an explanation (Crowley could have had a perfectly legitimate reason for calling for back up, but he didn’t explain it to Gates) the call for back up seems like yet one more unreasonable intrusion.

    At the same time, you have to realize how completely different this situation is from your Sgt. Chestnutt story. I’ll agree that it is wonderful that he survived and those that hurt him came to justice.

    But come now, while Crowley would have been right to be fearful upon entering the situation, once he realized that the person he was investigating was a man who needed to walk in his late fifties, I’d assume his fears were assuaged. Do you really think this man, who at the point he was arrested was standing on his own porch far away from the officer, actually posed a physical threat to Crowley?

    And to penguin, it is in no way against the law to be disrespectful to a police officer. Having read the grounds for disorderly conduct arrests, it sure seems like a catch-all, but I still think it was pretty foolish to arrest a man in his own house for being obnoxious.

  • janis

    problems as well as that attitude, then he qualifies as a possible Obama appointment. Perhaps as an intern to R. Gibbs, since they both exude the same kind of incoherent untruthiness.

  • mangrilla

    Yeah, that’s what I meant by I didn’t know the procedure, and I explained this perhaps after you posted, but I would assume that Gates, and most anyone in his shoes would say, “You know I’m a professor that lives here and you’re calling MORE police?”

  • janis

    stated that you didn’t know police procedure yet continued to bash Crowley and excuse Gates. And, no, I don’t have to realize a single thing. I told the story about Mark Chestnutt it illustrate the point that the cops NEVER know what a situation is all about until they follow their own well-taught rules. That you couldn’t extrapolate that point just says again how ferociously you are defending one side when you don’t know all the facts.

    Again, release the tapes and let us all hear what happened.

  • penguin2

    here in Va. you will get arrested. I have a good friend who is a police officer and that is true here. That doesn’t mean they don’t try to calm a situation down and diffuse it, but you cannot act belligerent toward law officers. Also, I am talking about in a one on one, not the mob crowd at a scene who like to yell obscenities at police when they are trying to do their job.

    Now you are calling Sgt. Crowley “foolish” that goes along with Obama’s “acting stupid” comment. Seems like you are playing the same cards. The man was being obnoxious outside his own house, and the Harvard and local police concur with the outcome.

  • randy streu

    My understanding from the coverage was that this was mostly for Gates’ benefit. Since all Gates offered was a university ID, the Uni cops would be helpful for checking the ID — much more so than Crowley would be equipped for.

    Not only that, but by bringing in officers from another department, Crowley would have another set of eyes on HIMSELF, to make sure Gates was treated appropriately.

  • winghunter1

    Gates And Obama Are;

    Gates linked to radical black, communist activists
    http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=105028

    Henry Gates Rant In 1996 On “Racist White Institutions”
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRlIdFcWd5k

    Obama?s A Racist
    http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/07/obamas_a_racist.html

    Barack Obama’s Connections to Socialism, Communism and Racial Divisiveness
    http://www.articlesbase.com/politics-articles/barack-obamas-connections-to-socialism-communism-and-racial-divisiveness-591732.html

  • jano4

    this whole situation should have never happened if Gates had just provided ID, and said have a good day.
    I was in this almost exact situation once. I couldn’t get the alarm to disengage at my house upon returning from a long trip. I was frustrated and PO’ed when I finally did get it turned off to have a knock on my door from the local PD. He explained he had a call on an alarm at this address, and could I provide ID that this was my address. As frustrated and tired as I was, I said certainly. I showed him my ID, he thanked me, and I thanked him for checking up on the call. I said have a good day, and that was the end of it.

  • penguin2

    In this day and age one is not safe being the only witness on the scene. The only thing that surprised me was that he went in by himself vs. having another officer with him. Forget the race face issue for the moment; if this had been a female (white’s fine) should a male officer enter without a witness? I think that would be a situation ready made for disaster.

    I say that because of the elevation of alleged victimhood in our society, and the deterioration of how law enforcement is treated/respected.

  • mom2oneson

    to deal with the way police sometimes lie and intimidate people and violate people’s rights. An extreme amount. Cursing and yelling isn’t really an issue for me but I can see how easily especially for men that yell or curse easier to do that when someone isn’t being straight or intimidating them. It’s hard to imagine police not being “good” unless you have experienced it. The race stuff is wrong but that isn’t to say police actions are always right. I would be upset too and I can see how a man could get to the point of cursing.

  • mangrilla

    But do they? If the local police concurred, why were the charges dropped?

    Also, had Crowley simply gotten into his vehicle and left the situation instead of arresting Gates, would the outcome (Gates no longer would have been shouting on his porch) been the same? Of course. And should Crowley have realized that escalating this to his arrest would have brought nothing but unnecessary manhours and paperwork being files, but also insane attention from media to overblow the situation? Yes.

    I don’t think Crowley is stupid and I don’t think he’s a racist, I just think he made a mistake. And I don’t think Gates is a bigot, nor do I think he’s an idiot, I think he just let an issue aggravate him too greatly. I saw a story earlier today where a dean that had hired Gates previously talked about, after hiring Gates to teach English, Gates had bought a large ritzy house near campus, and was constantly mistaken for a servant or groundskeeper.

    That’s why, Jano, I think your story about the alarm is close in some regards, but really takes for granted the strained relationship that African Americans and police officers have in this country. That statement in and of itself isn’t meant to say that cops are racists (one of my best friends is a sheriff here in MD and he’s probably the nicest person I’ve ever met), but that there is certainly a mistrust in parts of both communities that we shouldn’t blind ourselves to.

    In the end though, I’ll say again I think we should let this Gates stuff go. Does it help conservatives to prove without a doubt that Gates is actually some militant whitey-hater (which, again, I think is pretty far from the truth)? Not that I can see. Again, I’m more upset by the flimsy nature of his arrest, but I saw some headline the other day saying that Gates was willing to have a beer with Crowley, Obama talked to Crowley, and from what I’ve read about Crowley he seems like an upstanding guy who also is probably apt to let bygones be bygones. So our focus is most likely better used elsewhere.

  • randy streu

    “I think it takes a lot of patience to deal with the way police sometimes lie and intimidate people and violate people?s rights. An extreme amount.” First show me where Crowley lied, intimidated or violated Gates’s rights. THEN you can go into how it’s okay for Gates to go off on him like that.

    Without that first piece of evidence, the rest of your point is moot.

  • randy streu

    The DA dropped the charges. That doesn’t prove anything other than a politician dropped charges against a personal friend of the President, who also happens to have standing in the community. Make of it what you will.

  • randy streu

    Gates was a jerk. And, probably, is a jerk. And as I said on another diary, it speaks highly of the local PD that, if there’s another call about a breakin at the Gates residence, they’ll still show up, ready to serve and protect.

  • mom2oneson

    I was not posting about that this specific situation, it was the comment that we give up or rights or have bullets in our head.
    In Gate’s case though, I wouldn’t have given an ID or any information. I would not have cursed and yelled but I would not have given an ID in my own home. If they arrested me and came in without my consent they would have, but I wouldn’t give an ID or answer questions or consented to them entering.
    I agree wtih you about being sick of racial profiling stuff. What is needed is education on how to treat people like citizens with rights and an understanding of people’s emotions/reactions when being confroted with an officer. It seems like they do just the opposite (intimidation, lying, not respecting peopel’s rights, making bogus accusations, etc) to stir up people’s emotions and provoke the situation into escalating apart from the situation that they intended to deal with.

  • Achance

    that doesn’t have a tape recorder in his/her left breast pocket and whose personal, and often department, procedure is to start that recorder IMMEDIATELY upon contact with any civilian. The focus has been on the 911 tapes and the tapes of Crowley’s radio contacts with dispatch, but somewhere, I pretty confident, there is Crowley’s own, or maybe the department’s if they issue recorders, recording of what happened there.

    I know in my dealings with State Troopers here, if there were a complaint or controversy and there wasn’t a tape, by alarms went off.

  • mom2oneson

    He was in his own home. Now the ID might be the property of the state or something and then I could see having to give it but why should a man be under an obligation to provide ID in his own home or even speak to police to have peace? Maybe there is a law that says we must but I think that law should be challenged.

    I don’t get the attitudes on here. When they arrest people that did a real crime in broad daylight and it’s an emergency situation or confessed to a crime it, they give them all these protections but we are so quick to remove them someone minding their own business?

  • randy streu

    I was pulled over once as a teenager, while KNOWING I wasn’t speeding. I didn’t know why I’d been pulled over, and was annoyed by the intrusion, but I was polite. turned out, somebody spotted a car that looked similar to mine doing a gas-and-go. Not a major crime — but as you said, it could’ve been anything. (Fortunately, I hadn’t gotten gas, and was at less than a quarter tank… the cop let me go as soon as I showed him my gas gauge.)

  • JadedByPolitics

    He needed to provide PROOF of who he was because the cop didn’t know whether he was criminal who had broken into the house or not. Do you not think criminals LIE to the cops when they come to a house they have just broken into and say they are the resident? So YES there is an obligation to provide PROOF when an officer is called to a residence for a possible burglary.

  • penguin2

    I’m sorry, I think you are just trying to pull a smokescreen here. Your initial stand is that Crowley “made a mistake” and that Gates “is not a bigot or idiot” Your inferences, imply that you are in the same meme as the Obama, Gates, Rev. Wright, etc. Many links have been posted about Gates and his African-Studies teaching and philosphy, all in the same vein as noted by the Rev. Wrights, Jesse Jacksons and Al Sharptons.

    Then you say everyone should just let it go. Now where have I heard that before? Oh, Obama admin. trying to step back out of the pile of stuff that he mistakenly stepped in, thinking and hoping here was a race card to be played for a “teachable moment” that backfired on him!

  • pilgrim

    They were called to the residence on reported break-in. Not knowing what or who they are dealing with the first procedure of the cops is to ask the person to step outside. He said no. Then he said I live here. They asked for ID, and he said no, and he was angry because they did not know who he was. Finally he shows ID, and they start to leave. He then follows them out of the residence screaming at them at the top of his lungs and waking up the entire neighborhood. They charged him at that time for the disturbing of the peace in the neighborhood with a charge of disorderly conduct.

  • Aaron Gardner

    The Police were obligated to establish that Gates was who he said he was because their was a call of a break in. If they had just taken Gates word that he was Gates then left and it had turned out he wasn’t and then proceeded to rob Gates home these cops would be fired for not doing their duty.

    Gates decided, through his own racial prejudice, to escalate a non event when he refused to show id confirming who he was with the excuse of being profiled. This is absolutely false. The cops responded to a call…they didn’t just see Gates snooping around the house and decide he must be breaking in because he is black.

    You are too smart to be falling for this “us against them” philosophy between blacks and cops. That is a dangerous philosophy to hold to, it is a philosophy of hate.

  • djemi

    Somethings fishy here, or maybe I’m being overly sensertive.

    “Of course we all bristle at this story because Gates was so quick to pull the race card. But at the end of the day, Crowley arrested Gates for next to no reason on his own property, and THAT is something that we conservatives should be unhappy about”

    I don’t like the “we” part or for that matter the “Mr. Smith and Mr. Wesson” part

  • djemi

    http://www.redstate.com/dia0420/2009/07/27/gates/#comment-425

  • http://www.redstate.com/tnjim TNJim

    Then watch this video i posted over in Marcus’ diary last night. As my title suggests, Gates’ own racism has a history, much similar to Rev. Wright’s

  • Achance

    but the 911 burglary call created the rebuttable presumption that a crime was in progress and that the man(men) present were suspects. Thus, a demand for ID was not arbitrary and was the means by which Gates could rebut the presumption that he was engaged in a crime. The officer would also have the right to conduct a superficial search of Gates, called a Terry search from the USSC case, to insure that Gates was not armed.

    Gates had the right to refuse to cooperate by providing ID and had the right to refuse to speak at all to the officer. However, he would have done so at the risk, actually with the certainty, that he would be arrested for trespass or some such. Then he’d have to defend himself against indictment and prosecution.

  • Swamp_Yankee

    You dont know Gates. These are no people worth defending.

    http://www.wtop.com/?nid=104&pid=0&sid=1725138&page=2

  • penguin2

    but as you say, ‘something fishy” going on here.

  • Swamp_Yankee

    I think the tapes will be illuminating, but I have no question that Crowley was right. I am suprised some are still buying the MSM spin.

    The black officer at the scene stated Crowley was right.

    The chief of police stated that Crowley followed procedure.

    The police unions stated Crowley followed procedure

    Crowley taught a racial profiling course for five years with no pay

    He taught that class with a black officer who is supporting Crowley

    The former black police chief who appointed Crowley is supporting Crowley.

    He has on his blemishes on his 11 year career.

    Just because Gates is a powerful man with powerful connections and was able to get his version of the story out, as supported by the MSM, doesnt make it right. Gates and Obama were wrong, period.

  • mom2oneson

    with the obligation part. I don’t agree with because there are criminals out there that lie we should do whatever the police ask us to do.

  • LibRick

    I agree with your first paragraph. I’m sure if you read Mom2oneson’s posting history you would agree that she would not have a problem with it.

    Your second paragraph contains some conjecture, quite unusual for you. I doubt anyone actually knows what prejudices another might have. Some say Gates presented ID and other say otherwise. That this has escalated in the media is largely based their need to tap into and profit off of everyone’s personal prejudice. That’s what sells and it seems everyone’s buying.

    There is no “us against them” in this issue and Mom2oneson never even hinted at this. I’ve read her stuff and don’t think she is even capable of having that attitude nor do I think she harbors a single hateful thought in her body. She merely opined that police should not arrest people in their own home if they have committed no crime.

    So please don’t imply as stated in your last paragraph that she is leaning toward a dangerous philosophy…she’s not. You well know that the “you are too smart to” line is a device to passively scold.

  • blooch

    http://www.1iota.com/Mangrilla

    lol

  • The_Gadfly

    is that the officer didn’t KNOW it was his house. Because of the report of breaking and entering, and because the prof had in point of fact broken into his house because he locked himself out, an officer of the law has to assume he or she is potentially dealing with thief, not the home owner.

    Also, Moe is referring to a personal incident, not the Crowley incident. And in that incident, the cop has to assume he is under imminent threat of being shot and act accordingly. The car has already been reported as participating in an ARMED robbery. I’ve done much the same thing on a traffic stop once because within the week before I was pulled over for speeding there had been a report about officers being shot at on that stretch of I95 by drug runners who were pulled over for a traffic stop.

  • Swamp_Yankee

    Have you read Gates own account and the polie report. Absolutely, you have to do what the polie ask you to do, when they are in the hot pursuit of investigating a felony.

    This is about sheer law and order and a civil society.

    Do you really want to put cops on the defensive like this.

  • mom2oneson

    was the point of escalation. I think Gates was wrong to turn this into a racial drama. Apart from the race issue I can understand if he was upset about being asked to identify himself or even speak to police when he is in his own home. I don’t like this whole guilty and until you do what I ask for.

    I don’t think it’s police vs blacks but I do think police vs citizen is an issue because they sometimes use coercion and lying, bogus accusations and threats or promises and violate people’s rights.

  • Aaron Gardner

    I am not relying on conjecture at all…I read the police report, Gates refused to produce ID at least once prior to him finally providing ID…at that time Officer Crowley tried to leave Gates house, Gates followed Officer Crowley taunting him. A small crowd gathered due to the disruption Gates was creating by spewing racial rhetoric from his front porch…and if you know the area you understand that the front porch is only about 5-6 ft from the side walk…Then Officer Crowley gave a few warnings to Gates to stop causing a scene before he was arrested.

    There is an “us against them” philosophy that many in the inner city hold to, no matter their racial make up. It is fueled by hate and exploited by people like the Black Panther Party. It would be nothing short of ignorance to deny this.

    As far as my last paragraph to M21Son, I would appreciate it if you didn’t put words into my mouth. I like M21Son…that is why I prefaced my comment by saying that she is too smart to be falling for how this is being spun. The cops followed the law, and the law is just. We are a nation of laws, and those laws function best when applied without respect to race nor hindered by false calls of racism.

    Sorry you disagree.

  • mom2oneson

    accountability for the police to arresting him for trespassing? I think this stuff has just gone to far that if someone can be arrested for trespassing.

  • randy streu

    What would you have them do? Take his word for it?

    What if somebody broke into your house and claimed to live there? Should the police “respect his rights” and walk away?

  • Swamp_Yankee

    http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0723092gates2.html

    Other officers AND citizens at the scene corroborated this acccount.

  • nessa

    In the good old days, I received my licence when I was 15. My father was somewhat concerned that I may be lacking in some of the areas of common sense. My first car was a Plymouth Road Runner, I was 15, Dad’s judgement was sound. He took the time to point out a few facts of life to me.
    “One of these days you’re going to get pulled over. When this happens I want you to watch in your rear view mirror and note one thing, when that policeman is walking up to your window, he is going to reach down and un-snap his holster. It’s nothing personal, but cops get shot, they never know what the person in that car might be planning. Keep that in mind!”
    Well, it didn’t take long for Dad’s prediction to come true. While I was wondering how that Ford Fury III had been able to catch up to me at the ridiculous speed I was travelling, I glanced into the side view mirror and watched the State Patrollman don his Campaign Hat and then, nonchalantly, a move that was obviously second nature, he reached down and un-snapped his holster and loosened his pistol in it’s holster.
    I was a very polite young man at that point, after some stern talking to and my first ticket, I was back on my way. My dealings with police have always been the same. They have a dangerous job to do, why make it worse? I may be stupid at times, when speaking with a police officer, stupid or not, I’m polite.
    By the time I was 18 I had paid for a significant portion of the new county courthouse, but had never seen the inside of it. Unlike Mr. Gates, whose stupidity and bigotry is apparently too powerful to be controlled. He got what he deserved, any decent American would have been able to be polite, any decent American after losing control and visiting the inside of hte county courthouse should be able to control his emotions the next time he encounters a policeman doing his job.

  • Aaron Gardner

    You are being naive to the extreme, I don’t even know what to say to that. That is like getting mad at McDonalds for giving you ice with your soft drink…it is what they are supposed to do for crying out loud!!

  • Achance

    The cop only knows he had a report of a break in. He gets there and finds a man in the house. Does he just say OK and leave when the man asserts that he lives there? Even if you presented ID, how does your work ID or your DL prove you live there, it is going to take more steps to prove it; mail with your name on it, some sort of ownership paperwork. So, since he presented Hahvud ID, the Sgt. called the Hahvud PD to sort it out.

  • djemi

    Maybe JLenardDetroit needs to add a Discerning Trolls and Mobys section to his help file

    http://www.redstate.com/jlenarddetroit/2009/03/28/rs-help-files/

  • penguin2

    I definitely think our poster is suspect. I’m sure his true colors will show eventually. And I’ll leave that phrase as is…

  • Swamp_Yankee

    Its awfull convenient that some want to put this aside only after it has been shown that Gates and Obama exploited race and were wrong.

    Where were all these cool thoughtful delibertate people Wednesday and Thursday, when Gates and the Harvard faculty were demanding heads.

    Calling Crowley a “rogue” and a “racist” and that he needed to “beg” for forgiveness. That he needed to be re-educated in sensitivity training.

    That TOTUS used a national platform to call him “stupid”.

    But all that – nevermind.

  • randy streu

    They were doing their jobs. If, in that instance, he decided he’d rather go to jail then comply with the VERY SIMPLE request for identification, it’s his own stupid fault. Screw ‘im. Why punish the cops for Gates being a tool?

  • mom2oneson

    I appreciate you both standing up for me. :)

    The law is just. I don’t think it is always applied in a just manor.

    Here is a personal example. I called to report a crime. The police officer came over and filed a report. The next day a detective called and wanted to come into my home to interview me. She said she would be over in 15 minutes. I politely refused and requested it be done at the police station. She asked me what I hiding in there? How is me not wanting her in my home mean I was hiding something? She starts going on and on about what don’t I want her to see? I gave my reason (which I was just being polite, I shouldn’t have to justify it) and she says I watch too much tv? I haven’t lived in a home with a tv since I was 17. She said if she could not come over I I would have to call (another person in the dept) to make an appointment. He said he couldn’t get me in until later in the week, which I’m sure was another intimidation because this could have been done anywhere.
    Finally I allow her to come over and she walks in and comments how clean my home is? Where did that come from? I wasn’t reporting my gallon of bleach being stolen. :)
    I can give a few more examples but do you see the you must he hiding something type of intimidation? I was the one that reported the crime too, imagine if I was the suspect?
    I am very soft spoken and I have a lot of experience working with a lot of angry people (customer service). I am very good at getting past the initial emotions of someone, if they are angry, rushed, etc and getting to the actual issue but anyone is going to be upset if they are accused of something out of the blue. I don’t see why police do that when it is just going to stir up people’s emotions. I understand they want to be effecient and finish their interview etc but it should not be done at the expense of treating people badly or disrespecting them.

  • mom2oneson

    When I said I didn’t want the interview in my home, she made more of a big deal about me hiding something than how I can describe in writing.

    Also this is not an isolated incident. I’ve dealt wtih police before that I felt were using coercion to finish what they had to do quickly. I’ve never been arrested or done any crime but I don’t like the whole we are going to act like you are guilty thing.

  • mom2oneson

    and not aiding in a potentional conviction and protection from criminals?

  • The_Gadfly

    PC Guide to Racism. In order:

    Black police officers don’t count as real blacks, they’re just as white as the rest of the pigs.

    The chief of police is just another pig.

    The union obfuscates their conspiracy to deny blacks their civil rights.

    Crowley was only teaching the class as a front.

    As for the no blemishes, all the above combine for that.

    /end snark.

    More seriously, we need more people like Crowley, who actually is willing to speak truth to power.

  • Aaron Gardner

    No it wasn’t, so why paint with such a broad brush. Why not understand the individual incident for what it is rather than applying an “us against them “philosophy borne of your own incident which has no correlation to the incident at hand?

    That is the question you need to be asking yourself.

    Oh and again…Gates wasn’t “accused of something out of the blue” he was at the scene of a reported crime. Crowley wasn’t just driving around Harvard looking for suspicious blacks…he was called to a specific address for a specific crime and it is his duty to assess the situation and take appropriate action. In the assessment phase Gates became combative because of his own presumptions about why Officer Crowley was their…and for some reason you are doing the same thing. And you are both wrong.

  • mbecker908

    stuff. They were responding to a 911 call.

  • http://www.redstate.com/tnjim TNJim

    our poster sounds like someone who doesn’t look into someone’s background, kinda like 52% of the voters last November. Now I don’t know if Crowley knew of Gates’ background at the time, but it did play a part in how Gates reacted. Gates was the one who escalated the call into a disturbing the peace charge, and the video I posted and Swamp’s link gives an idea as to why.

    Oh, and you’re most welcome.

  • djemi

  • LibRick

    as you pointed out that he did “finally” produce ID. That should have been the end of the story. I’m not defending Gates — he should have kept a cool head and not expressed any racial tone, however ingrained. But the officer should have kept the same head too.

    I really don’t disagree with you on on much here as to behavior. but. the fact is that the officer is the one paid to take these issues into account. This could have been diffused by him,in my opinion. I know that puts a lot on police officers but when granted the power of law enforcement, it goes with the territory.

    As to Mom2oneson, I know you like her, as I do and I’m sorry if anything I stated suggested otherwise :)

  • Aaron Gardner

    B. He was arrested for Disturbing the Peace.

    C. I doubt you looked any further than the MSM spin considering how many “facts” you have gotten wrong.

  • Achance

    Only in Alaska do you have a State Constitutional right to privacy. There is only a right to “privacy” under the federal Constitution as privacy relates to sex and abortion through the elaborate mechanisms of penumbras and emanations of J. Douglas’ recent marriage to a very young and presumably fertile new wife.

    What you have in this instance is a right to not be subject to unreasonable search and siezure. If Gates had refused the officer entry, the officer would have had the choice of entering without a warrant on the presumption that he was observing a felony in progress or he could have gotten a warrant. When he had the warrant, Gates would be forced to allow entry and you get to the same place; is it his house? Proving that requires ID and some documentation or witness statement connecting you to the house.

  • LibRick

    the police were responding to a possible crime in progress. I think the point of escalation was right after the ID was produced. Prior to that, the officer didn’t know who he was confronting. But I get where you’re coming from.

  • Aaron Gardner

    Officer Gates was leaving the scene when Gates continued out of his house and onto the stoop. Crowley kept his cool and gave Gate multiple warnings to calm it down before Crowley made the final decision to arrest Gates.

    Blaming Officer Crowley for the unjustifiable actions of Gates is a non starter for me. If you want to continue pushing that I suggest you do it elsewhere. Nothing against you, I just won’t let a false charger of racism to go unchallenged.

    Being called a racist is the modern day equivalent of being called the n-word. for a white guy.

  • mom2oneson

    because I’ve seen police be over reaching, use coercion and so forth at other times.

    I don’t think anyone should have to provide ID in their own home. I can understand why Gates would be upset. Now I would not have cursed and yelled, I would have gone inside and called a girlfriend and ranted but I can see how especially a man would get to that point easily because men do curse and yell a little easier than women. The race stuff is wrong but I don’t think him being upset about a police officer asking him for ID is wrong. Gates was yelling due to police action. He didn’t go find an officier and yell at him. Why don’t we see Gates as being provoked by the officer asking for his ID in his own home?

    I think it’s wrong the attention that happened to Crowley. If it was me, I would not set near the WH, I’d run as far and fast as I could and probably take a vaction until it all died down.

  • LibRick

    You got a conservative (Aaron) and a liberal (me) both standing up for you . Keep up posting your heartfelt views — You’re a unifier! God knows, we need more like you. :)

  • mom2oneson

    I agree 100%
    That is what I think too. Use some common sense, you just basically made a man prove he had a right to be in his own home..consider people’s feelings. He was obviously upset over what happened, it wasn’t out of the blue he found a police car and started pounding on it or saw an officer and started yelling at him. A lot of men get upset when they are angry and tired.

  • Aaron Gardner

    I can’t make it wanysimpler than that. Gates was at the scen of a suspected crime, in order to rule Gates out as a suspect the Officer had to ask for his ID. How else do you propose an Officer of the law respond? Should Officer Crowley have disregarded the safety of the entire neighborhood all because Gates said he lived there without providing proof? Maybe Gate’s should be pissed at his neighbor who didn’t recognize him and called the cops in the first place.

    Your anger is misplaced and you are either being disingenuous at this point or you are actually totally ignorant of the facts as they occurred. I think you need to read more on both Gates and Crowley and the police rports before you comment any further.

  • Aaron Gardner

    See how that logic works there Mom2oneson….you should quit with that crap while you are ahead.

  • randy streu

    How the hell is the cop supposed to know whose house it is? How is he supposed to know, even if he knows the resident’s name is “Gates,” what he looks like?

    He was called to investigate a possible crime. He asked for ID. What if it HAD been an intruder? Are you saying Crowley should’ve just taken his word for it? I just don’t understand what’s unclear here.

  • Swamp_Yankee

    Crowley, politely asked Gates to step outside and Gates refused. It was at that point he was already crying racsim and making personal insults towards Crowley.

    It was only then that Gates went to get his ID and was upset because Crowley then let himself in to follow Gates, not knowing who he was or where he was going.

  • LibRick

    but I thought that our rights extended to our outdoor property and not just in our house, proper.

    I am not and did not blame Officer Crowley for anything racist. In fact, if you read my post the only racism issue I even mentioned was that of citizen Gates. My posts only questioned Crowley’s professional judgment., as well as Gates’ personal judgment.

    So your contention that I charged racism is unfounded when examining the words of my post unless questioning a person’s judgment where race is an ancillary element is now the standard for racism. Perhaps, we are both be arguing the same point in all this.

  • JadedByPolitics

    there are a hell of alot more of us out here then there are police officers and whatever we as good citizens can do to make their job easier so they don’t waste time and are out catching criminals who would drop us like a rock in our “private” living room we should do.

    This idiot Gates wanted this to be about race because that is what he teaches and espouses and that is what he got and his race baiting friend the President thought he would help his buddy and found out that Americans are more law and order then racist!

  • Aaron Gardner

    I don’t think you are being racist or saying that Crowley acted based on racial motivations. What I am saying is that the spin is to blame Crowley for Gates actions….this implicitly gives cover to Gates’ racists actions and condones his attempts to portray Crowley as a racist.

    You aren’t being racist, your are inadvertantly being used to promote that meme. As is mom2oneson.

    I am just not sure why two smart individuals don’t see that.

    As far as your first question goes…have you ever been visited by the police because you music was too loud?

  • Swamp_Yankee

    This isn’t even about the details of the incident, even though Crowley was right. It is about powerful men exploiting the issue to falsely claim racism and incite racial tensions.

    This should not have been a big deal. But Gates and Obama made it a big deal. And when you call someone a racist and other horrible names, you better be able to back it up or be ready to apologize.

    As those who live in divisive areas know, this isn’t some small petty matter. People who trivialize this like you, are aiding and abetting injustice, crime and racial strife.

    You walk down to the market at the end of my street and its blacks on one side of the projects and whites on the other. Its just like Nifong in North Carolina. That a**hole, exploiting race, almost started a race riot in NC. Distrust, animosity and tensions are greater because of him.

    And cops everywhere are hamstrung by this crap, which leads to less safety.

    Cops in my neighbohood cant to the job they are suppose to because of jerks like Gates. People like him must be discredited.

  • LibRick

    You say “quit with that crap while you are ahead.” — prefaced by a post like that? There’s a lot of irony in your post.

  • Aaron Gardner

    Are you having reading comp problems today…;^) Reductio ad absurdum

    Carry on.

  • randy streu

    at least, in this case. A woman saw two mean BREAKING IN to a property, and phoned the police. The police showed up and asked the suspect to leave the property. The suspect became beligerant. The officer asked for the suspect’s ID (presumably, to prove that the suspect was who he claimed to be).

    This has nothing to do with personal freedom, with privacy OR with racism. Having to show your ID is just not a violation of civil rights.

    If anything, Gates was embarrassed because he locked himself out. Well, boo-freakin’-hoo. Gates’ rights weren’t violated; and, in fact, the ungrateful little weasle’s rights and safety were protected that day, at least in theory, by a cop who actually cared enough to verify what A SUSPECT was telling him.

  • mom2oneson

    if one I was asked to leave my home and two the officier came in without permission.

  • Aaron Gardner
  • Swamp_Yankee

    And do those men get the Harvard faculty, Harvard alumni, the press, and the President to cry racsim, call people names, incite racial tensions, make the streets less safe and destroy careers.

    Gates reaping what he sowed.

  • mom2oneson

    was the man who lived there. I don’t agree with this. It does have to do with our freedom. What is the point of having the ammendments to protect us?

  • http://www.marklaiminger.org Lammo

    The point of the post is exactly that: in this kind of case, you do not know what information the officer is acting on or have any idea what the officer suspects you of having done. The better course is not to start off the contact in confrontation mode. If you haven’t done anything, why be a jerk about it? I personally think that Gates’s neighbors should get together and put up big signs on either side of his house letting would be burglars know that his house is fair game – - go ahead and break in because none of us are going to call the police.

  • Aaron Gardner

    That is the part that you are somehow avoiding….and to do so is wrong.

  • http://www.marklaiminger.org Lammo

    Dropping legitimate charges seems to be a feature of the current administration – - can you say New Black Panterh Party? Can you spell it?

  • mom2oneson

    I would have taken into account the situation that just happened and his gender. Just like if a woman started crying and basically saying exaggerated things I would have taken her gender into account too. Men raise their voice and a lot quicker than women and women will often exaggerate the problem. Don’t feed the fire in a situation like that and show some empathy of how they feel. I’m trying to say he was probably not a threat to the neighborhood safety just upset about what just took place.

  • navychick1993

    While “we” keep talking about Gate’s ignorant and racist behavior, two more uniformed officers have lost their lives while trying to do their job.

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,534893,00.html?mrp

  • http://www.marklaiminger.org Lammo

    “Panther” – - figners ahaed fo brian agina. :-)

  • LibRick

    So, inadvertently, is it possible that you are being used to “promote a meme? Think about it.

    Just because we disagree with your opinions does not mean that some political “Borg” assimilated us. We might have come to our beliefs from our own life experience…think of it as a kinda Occams Razor approach.

    And, yes, in my way younger days, the cops came because my music was loud — on multiple occasions. I recall one where the they came twice in a night and were met with a lot of drunk people laughing and ridiculing them. But, they didn’t arrest any of us for not being respectful.

    As to disturbing the peace, we were playing Metallica, And Justice fof All, at over 200 watt volume. Now there’s a case where an arrest might be prudent.

  • randy streu

    What amendments were violated here? NONE. Unreasonable Search and Seziure? Absolutely not. Why? because the cops were CALLED TO THE SCENE OF A CRIME! They don’t know what the hell Gates looks like, or where he lives. That could’ve been any of a thousand douchebags just saying he lived there. How is the cop supposed to know? He had probable cause — a phonecall about two men breaking in to a residence — to AT LEAST ask the man at the door for identification.

    Please. Pretty please, answer the question you’ve been avoiding this whole time: if it were some jackass breaking into your home, would you, or WOULD YOU NOT want the responding officer to VERIFY HIS IDENTITY?

  • randy streu

    I think he’s saying you’ve been fed the “official story” on this, through media channels, and are basing your feedback on that.

  • Swamp_Yankee

    nt

  • Aaron Gardner

    The only one I am pushing is rule of law…is that now a bad thing?

    Oh and you and your younger friends had an excuse…you were young….what is Gates’ excuse….racist white cops.

  • Aaron Gardner
  • LibRick

    Oh, the logical fallacy statement. Okay, Maybe you should look further into all the logic fallacies them and test them against your own statements. And … my reading comp is fine today — I’m liking your posts…Oh, maybe it’s not?

    Cheers! :)

  • mom2oneson

    but I don’t understand the obligation of Gates to show the ID or speak to the officer.

    I really don’t understand the “whatever we as good citizens can do to make their job easier” as something to waive our rights. If he is a suspect than it’s for a crime? Why should encourage someone to waive their rights?

  • navychick1993

    I am having a HUGE challenge trying to understand why mom2oneson feels it wasn’t necessary to show the ID in the first place. To refuse to comply with a cop’s request, not demand, but request will start the escalation. Add to that Gate’s racists comments and you have a MAJOR escalation.

    Short story…I grew up in Yorba Linda, California aka The Land of the Gracious Living aka birthplace of Richard Nixon. My parents bought a new home in a new development and we were one of the first families to move in the cul-de-sac. My father had a state of the art alarm system installed; my younger brother set it off two weeks later, while trying to enter the house after curfew. The alarm company notified the cops, who in turn came out to the house to investigate. It was 2:00am and the cops asked my dad to step out of the house, his house, and bring his ID with him. My father complied, the cops explained why they were out there and my father explained what my brother had done. Both the cops and my father had a good laugh about it. My father thanked the cops and off they went. Now imagine if my father had refused to comply with the cops’ requests? Oh…and I might add that we were the only black family in a predominantly white neighborhood. Just thought I throw that in there for the race-baiters. (smile)

  • Aaron Gardner

    Otherwise don’t make a comment inferring that I am engaging in them.

    And yes I am in rare form today….racism does that to me….along with smart people avoiding facts in order to not admit they are wrong.

    It is ok to be wrong….it is not ok to not admit that you are wrong.

  • mom2oneson

    I mean just use common sense with how people are acting when they are upset. They may calm down pretty quickly after their initial reaction.

  • janis

    had to wear protective vests? Was it in the days before cops getting shot at was a regular activity? Was it in the days before meth and other drugs that are in such common use now?

    My son is in law enforcement as is his best friend. The week that his best friend went through the police academy for training, a graduate from the previous class was fatally stabbed through the neck for just a traffic stop. Law enforcement is a damnably hard and risky job. Yes, they make mistakes, but these days they have to put up with an increasingly belligerent number of people who don’t have too many qualms about getting violent. Not to mention the unscrupulous attorneys who are only too glad to read the news and volunteer to sue the various agencies for millions. Even if they win, they will still have to fork over money for attorney fees and will miss valuable patrol time to deal with the paper work and court appearances.

    As has been noted elsewhere, the police must always ask a person to step out of a house on a call such as this. The reason I have heard is that they have to satisfy themselves that a person is not being coerced or held hostage, as has happened many a time.

    The bottom line here from all that I have heard and read, is that Sgt. Crowley was doing his job as he had been trained to do and as he had trained others to do. Gates, a man notable for his racism over years, decided to make it into something that it wasn’t and never needed to be. He chose to be confrontational, verbally abusive, and deliberately disrespectful of public servants doing their job as ordered.

    He should be utterly ashamed of himself as should anyone who, having access to the facts, spends so much time defending him.

  • randy streu

    You keep talking in generalities, but I’m talking about specifics. We’re talking about a specific situation. What RIGHTS would Gates have waived by just showing the damned ID?

    And I’ll ask again: If this was somebody in your home, would you or would you not want the officer to verify his identification?

  • navychick1993

    *Just thought I’d throw that in there for the race-baiters. (smile)

  • Swamp_Yankee

    More vindication for slandered Cambridge Police.

  • randy streu

    I’ve asked several times for specifics: what specific amendments were violated? What specific civil rights are being waived? These generalities are nonsense, because unless you actually have specifics, they are meaningless.

  • Aaron Gardner

    Also try this experiment for me:

    You are driving down the road…minding your own business….you aren’t speeding and you haven’t broken any laws. A cop pulls in behind you, puts on his lights…obviously the cop would like you to pull over. Don’t….continue driving at the speed limit and go home and then go into your home and shut the door. Don’t respond to the cops efforts to ask you why you fled them…none of your business since you weren’t dooing anything wrong…right.

    Finally the cops arrest you. Turns out the cop just wanted to inform you that your gas cap was off. Are you in the wrong or is the cop?

  • Scope

    and were stopped by a policeman, and he asked to see your drivers license, do you think you shouldn’t have to provide it because you are sitting in your own personal property? I realize that one purpose for the request is in insuring that you are a licensed driver, but, I believe more often not, they want to see it for ID purposes. Suppose like some stories above, your vehicle matches a stolen vehicle description, or a description of a get away car from a bank robbery?

    As said above, we are a nation of laws. Those laws were made for the good of all Americans. Public safety is a necessary Government function. When laws can be ignored by anyone, we become a nation of anarchy, which I’m sure you wouldn’t want to see Mom.

  • mangrilla

    good point.

  • Swamp_Yankee

    911 not too revealing, but demonstrate a level headed Crowley.

    The long-awaited 911 tape and audio of the controversial July 16 arrest of Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates Jr. have been made public today where the arresting officer tells the dispatcher to ?keep the cars coming? – he?s dealing with an ?uncooperative gentleman.?

    Gates can be heard on the tapes talking in the background, but his exact words cannot be made out. It is difficult to say if the professor is screaming or not.

    Arresting officer, Sgt. James Crowley, does say calm and clear ?he?s off with a gentleman who says he resides here (but) is rather uncooperative.?

    In the initial 911 call, Harvard alumni magazine employee Lucia Whalen of Malden can be heard spelling out the name of the street and saying that another woman approached her about seeing two men trying to enter the 17 Ware Street home.

    ?She had noticed two gentlemen trying to get in at that number 17 Ware Street,? Whalen said. ?They kind of had to barge in … using their shoulder … I?m not sure if these are two individuals who actually live there … they were pushing the door in.?

    When asked by the dispatcher if the men are ?white, black or Hispanic,? Whalen said, ?One looked kind of Hispanic,? also saying they were ?larger men.

    ?I just saw them from a distance,? she said, adding she called when an older woman also walking on the street seemed concerned about the men busting into the house.

    Her voice is also clear on the 911 audio. The conflict, however, begins to develop in the second audio of the 12:44 p.m. call of a ?possible B&E in progress.?

    One minute into the tape, Crowley is heard saying ?can you have the caller come to the front door?? The dispatcher replies, ?It?s not her house.?

    Forty seconds later Crowley asks for Harvard Police to back him up. Finally, you hear police call for ?the wagon.?

    The tapes ?speak for themselves,? said Cambridge Police Commissioner Robert Haas.

  • navychick1993

    Didn’t Gates say “It was time to move on”? I think I know why he made that comment. (smile) You reap what you sow.

  • mangrilla

    My “inferences” that both people are decent, things just ended up poorly put me in Rev. Wright territory?

    Histrionics abound.

  • Aaron Gardner

    Of course you are a self loathing uncle Tom so your opinion on this matter just doesn’t count sorry. [invoking Gates in this comment]

    Seriously though, your Father was a good role model that evening for your whole family. He taught you the lesson that cops are not the enemy. He taught you that being respectful produces better results than relying on prejudice.

    We need more like you and less like Gates….racism blinds many to common sense.

  • janis

    deal about showing his ID? And why in the world are you refusing the simple notion of a man identifying himself when HIS OWN NEIGHBOR thought that his house was being broken into? The cops would be seriously negligent–the the criminal point–if they just took Gates’ word for who he was. Suppose that he hadn’t been Gates? Then suppose that he went on to rob the house and then lay in wait for Gates to actually come home and then killed him. What in the world do you think would have happened to those cops who were just willing to take his word for it as to who he was?

    Seriously, ,mom2, quit using your own preconceived notions and anecdotal experience to judge this event. Ask yourself why Obama felt compelled to walk his own comments back if he thought that Sgt. Crowley had really “acted stupidly.” God knows the arrogant SOB never apologizes to anyone other than our enemies, so his behavior in this circumstance should tell you something important.

  • randy streu

    http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/07/27/gates.arrest/

  • Scope

    I just heard it on talk radio. Apparently the tapes back up what Crowley wrote in the report. SOOOOOOO that makes Gates a proven liar, as he said that the comments he made at Crowley, that were in the report were lies. I think it great that these have come out while Gates is right now sitting and having a beer with Obama and Crowley. I’m sorry Crowley went to the WH.

  • Aaron Gardner

    And you are the last person who should be talking about common sense as you have lack any of it in your comments on this issue. And I want you to know that it really pains me to have to say that to you. On this one issue you are just demonstrably wrong.

  • mom2oneson

    I keep a seperate wallet with my license, license registration and insurance card in it, ready to give any officier.
    I wouldn’t voluntarliy allow him to search me, my car or purse though. I wouldn’t disclose any information of where I was going either.

  • Aaron Gardner
  • Swamp_Yankee

    I’ve got what the Herald posted link.

    I’m trying to see if they were leaked anywhere.

  • mangrilla

    that I haven’t looked into Gates’ background. I will say that it’s mostly unimportant and I’ll describe why:

    As I have already intimated, I don’t think this story is a huge deal. I think it can be played for political points for Republicans, but I still think that it was wrong for him to be arrested. I’ll be completely honest to say that aside from the police report on Smoking Gun, and a headline here and there, I have no really spent much of my time looking into the issue.

    But let’s just say for the sake of argument that Gates is a complete racist, who has sat in loathing of all of his students, many of whom I am sure have been white, over his teaching career. Since when is it okay to arrest someone for being a racist? The way I see it, the guy was still plucked from his porch for being obnoxious with a police officer. Whether he’s a squeaky clean preacher or he’s arrested in full KKK cloak, I don’t really think that makes a difference.

  • aesthete

    never thought I’d see that day ;)

  • Aaron Gardner

    our personalities just aren’t friendly towards each other.

  • mom2oneson

    but there a right not to speak or give out information to the state? Isn’t that the point of the self incrimination ammendment? Maybe ID is property so that would be search and seizure I have no idea. I think ID belong to the state anyway, at least they do here.

    I mean in general with the whole “make it easier for police” posted above, or just the line of thinking of why not show them, why let them in our homes, let them search our cars, give them information, that is waiving our rights. I believe police sometimes coerce people into doing so too. Even in an emergency situations where a warrant is not needed for a search the suspect still has other rights.

  • navychick1993

    I would like to add that both my parents were born and raised in Virginia during the Civil Rights movement. They both had their fair share of experiencing segregation and Jim Crow laws, naturally at the hands of the Democrat Party. Both didn’t allow that to stop them from achieving college degrees and being successful in their prospective careers. One thing my parents always taught me and my younger brothers was that you had bad people in all races/ethnic groups. (hence my signature line) No one owes you anything; you owe yourself to be the best that you can be. Nothing is ever too bad that it can’t be overcome, with hardwork and determination…and of course prayer. (smile)

    Ok…I’m done…for now. (smile)

  • mangrilla

    I had never heard of a moby, so I figured I’d get the Urban dictionary just to get their definition of both words:

    Troll – One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument

    Moby – An insidious and specialized type of left-wing troll who visits blogs and impersonates a conservative for the purpose of either spreading false rumors intended to sow dissension among conservative voters, or who purposely posts inflammatory and offensive comments for the purpose of discrediting the blog in question.

    As for a troll, I’d be pretty hard pressed to say that anything I’ve posted is deliberately provocative or designed to cause disruption. At least two other people agreed with me. I might not have a popular opinion, but come on, I’m not being outlandish or disrespectful.

    As for a moby, I’d say that my political nature certainly wavers, but I’m most definitely not here for the purpose of spreading any rumors or to bring shame to the site.

    What’s wrong with just disagreeing with me, instead of any of this other nonsense?

  • Scope

    Your in your own property, and you are being asked for your license (ID). Most people I know use their Drivers License to prove their identity. What’s different.
    Would you want the police to come to your home if you were out and someone was trying to break in? Would you like the police to ask the burglar for his ID? Suppose he said he owns the home? How would you like the police to respond to that type of situation?

  • http://www.marklaiminger.org Lammo

    to show ID or speak to the officer, however, his failure/refusal to do so in these circumstances would guarantee a trip downtown in handcuffs. Thus, Gates had an obligation as a citizen to respond to the police in an appropriate manner. His behavior smacks of typical “don’t you know who I am” arrogance that accompanies an attitude that “the rules of polite civil society don’t apply to me”.

    Sgt. Crowley was not randomly hassling black men on the street. He was responding to a reported break-in at a specific house. If he fails to identify any and all persons he encounters in that house he is being derelict in his duty (not to mention opening his department up for civil liability). The possibilities and permutations of what could have been going on when Sgt. Crowley arrived at that house are almost endless.

    As far as any amendments go, I assume you are referring to the 4th amendment protection from unreasonable search and seizure in general and the warrant requirement in particular. There are exceptions that prove every rule. In the case of the 4th amendment the exceptions that apply here are exigent circumstances and the general community caretaking function.

    If Mr. Gates had acted like a rational human being and simply provided the information requested by Sgt. Crowley, then the exigency would have evaporated and the sergeant would have fulfilled his duty and gone about the rest of his business for the day. Given his outrageous response to a legitimate police inquiry, I suspect that Mr. Gates has bought himself neighbors who won’t call the police if they see something suspicious at his house in the future and a rather slow response to any future calls that do get made. I, for one, wouldn’t blame them.

  • aesthete

    as a stereotypical “police vs. blacks” story by Gates and his ilk. Maybe Crowley was wrong in arresting Gates (IMO, he was), but that doesn’t change the fact that a man who was just doing his job had his character libelled and slandered by a sitting US President, a “distinguished” Harvard professor, and the MSM for an arguably poor use of judgement in a situation that had been made stressful by Gates.

    So, even if you are right, there is still something profoundly wrong with making Crowley out to be a racist, when at most, he has committed the crime of making mistakes–as we all have done at some point.

  • Aaron Gardner

    us against them…..damn the torpedoes whilst I talk out my anus.

    Seriously mom2oneson, no rights at all were violated….at all.

  • mom2oneson

    My first post was being upset about the waive your rights or else you deserve bullets type of thinking posting above. I do think police should consider a man’s feelings when yelling at him after he has been basically accused and asked to show ID in his own home. I would be upset too. What Rick said about deescalating the situation is what I think should be pointed out. Take how someone feels after an encounter with police into consideration.

    I do not think we should waive our rights just to make their job supposedly easier, what is the point of the ammendments then? I don’t think we should say others have an obligation to either. I would like to read more about protection vs freedom and rights.

    I don’t agree with the black vs cops but I do think citizens should be aware that cops sometimes do violate people’s rights or use coercion or lie to get them to waive their rights.

  • Scope

    of agreeing on something. It is more a matter of knowing right from wrong on the subject being discussed. Right Aaron!

  • Aaron Gardner
  • randy streu

    and this isn’t about the 5th Amendment.

    This is about a very specific incident, in which Officer Crowley did absolutely the right things.

    Also, the 5th Amendment does NOT make you not subject to arrest. Had gates not provided the ID, he’d have been arrested for trespassing, and he’d have had a pretty bad night, up until the time they checked his ID. At that point, he’d be let go, most likely, and without an apology (which would be undeserved anyway).

    This isn’t about a cop showing up with no reason. Had Gates ASKED the officer why he was there, I’m sure Crowley would have told him right then why. But he didn’t. He went off like a race-baiting drama queen and aroused the cop’s suspicions.

    Have you ever worked in retail? I have. And I’ve learned one thing about the nature of the criminally entitled; the more “outraged” they act at being singled out, the more likely it is they have something to hide. What happens when you ask a law-abiding citizen for his receipt? He smiles and hands it over. The guilty? They scream and cry about racism or profiling or singling them out for whatever reason. Just like Gates did.

    Now, he just happened to be an asshat, rather than actually guilty, but that’s not how it looks when that happens.

    So, over all, based on the ACTUAL SITUATION we’re talking about, Gates had no standing, even in your own estimation. Had Gates said, “Why?” in a civil manner, I’m quite certain Crowley would have explained the situation. Gates could’ve shown the ID to prove who he was, and that would’ve been the end of it.

    No rights were violated here. None. At all.

    If you’re talking about other, nameless situations, fine. But that’s not what this is about. We’re not talking about the RARE occasions in which cops abuse their authority. We’re talking about THIS situation, in which, no wrong was done by the police, in which NO rights were violated, and which has, literally, nothing whatsoever to what you wrote above.

  • Aaron Gardner
  • aesthete

    Just glad to see you guys… both being right on something? ;)

  • LibRick

    But the rule of law should not factor in age. The rule of law should also respect personal property rights, is this not what we are all about?

    No one should be able to come into my home and arrest me just on my attitude or nasty expressions — last I checked that’s my constitutional right. It doesn’t matter if someone has a problem with it,, so long as I’m on my property and not breaking the law. Can’t believe you have any issue with that.

    The meme I see going on is: Any law enforcement officer is right and above reproach, merely by their station and the badge they wear — no questions even if the citizen is on their own property. I think that’s a police state mentality.

    I don’t think you are actually pushing that meme but I do think you might be looking past some core conservative/libertarian values to accept it as a truth.

  • mom2oneson
  • mangrilla

    I haven’t particularly followed this story. I’ve seen the Smoking Gun police report and a few headlines here and there, like I said above. I also saw Obama’s comments, which I don’t find particularly offensive just because I think that the arrest was unnecessary. I didn’t take them to mean that Crowley was stupid, but I’ll say it was a boneheaded choice of words. I don’t know about Deval Patrick, etc. though, and I’ll say in that case, yes, there should be efforts made to make sure that Crowley is recognized as an upstanding police officer, and that, at least on his side, this instance had nothing to do with race. Anyone who intimated otherwise should apologize publicly (although, we know that there are always a group of Al Sharptons who will cry race about this story and every single other story until the day they die, and people like him should really just be ignored to the best of our ability).

    I still do not believe it was appropriate to arrest the professor, however.

  • randy streu

    So I’ll ask again: If some guy broke into your home and your neighbor called the cops on him, would you, or would you not want the responding officer to verfiy his identity?

  • aesthete

    and we do have to be cautious about such incidents. However, you have to consider that the context of your remarks is this specific incident. IOW, when you say, “I don’t think we should waive our rights to the police”, a good statement in and of itself, in this context, you’re saying, Gates=right, Crowley=wrong when that’s not the case, looking at the evidence. If there’s ever a case of police abuse, conservatives should be wary to support the police (and I’m sure they will by), but in this case, Crowley was well within the parameters of proper police behavior in asking a potential home invader to provide ID.

  • Vegas_Rick

    I don’t recall seeing any evidence that Sgt Crowley “yelled” at Gates or “accused” him of anything. If anything, the evidence and witnesses point to the fact that Sgt Crowley was very reasonable.

    If you can answer this question, mom, I think folks will get off your back.

    How did could Sgt. Crowley KNOW that the man in the home was the homeowner and not a criminal? How could he KNOW that the man was not holding the actual homeowners hostage in another room? What if Sgt. Crowley had taken the man at his word, left the property, and then the man committed murder or worse?

    Hmmmm?

  • mom2oneson

    that is an actual crime and the actual criminal.

  • Aaron Gardner

    A. He wasn’t inside his home at the time of arrest.

    B. If a man beats his wife in his own home is that not a crime because it happened in his own home?

    C. You weren’t suspected of a B&E as Gates was.

    D. I don’t know if anybody is saying to comply with the cops because of their station….I am saying that complying with cops in order to prove your own innocence is common sense.

    How long do you want to continue this?

  • randy streu

    Who says it’s an actual crime and actual criminal? How does the cop know?

  • mangrilla

    It was darn near 1PM. Although, I guess if he’s living near students, you might be right…

  • Swamp_Yankee

    The cops and the neighbor dont know if its an actual crime and the actual criminal.

    That’s why they wre investigating. You dont know anything until it is tried in court.

  • djemi

    http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/2009/07/27/release-the-crowleygates-tapes/#comment-19495

  • navychick1993

    While you are busy worrying about the fact that “…cops sometimes do violate people’s rights or use coercion or lie to get them to waive their rights” you ought to look at the Obama administration and his merry band of idiots in both houses of Congress.

    And I will add this…you want people to make your job easier don’t you? I am sure you don’t like when people blow up at you for doing your job, right? Why would you expect the cops to tolerate the same from citizens who they took an oath to protect and serve? I am REALLY trying hard to understand your logic. Like I told one of my cousins (who plays the victim everytime when it comes to the cops), don’t call them anymore. Her son is no prize and she has on numerous occasions had the cops out to her house. As much as she complains about her son and his illegal behavior, she is more willing to help him, instead of the cops. So when he gets “crazy” at her house, or stuff comes up missing…I tell her to not call the cops. After all, they are the bad guys…not the criminals who lie, coerce and violate innocent people.

  • janis

    here, mom2. Where did you ever read or hear that the cops were “yelling” at Gates? From everything I’ve seen and heard, it was Gates doing the yelling. If he wanted to de-escalate the situation, then why was HE the one doing the yelling? I just don’t get your refusal to look at the facts in this case and can’t understand why you keep propping up the case of someone who made this situation so much more than it ever had to be.

    Do you think any of us would have ever heard of this case if it had been a white professor instead of Gates and if it had been a black cop or a Hispanic cop instead of Crowley? No, we wouldn’t. This case is about racism pure and simple. And the POTUS made it into a huge deal by injecting his big mouth and little knowledge into it.

  • janis

    So good luck on that. I like Mom2, but on this issue I think most of us here are completely bumfuzzled that we can’t get through. I don’t get this one, not at all.

  • Scope

    Tell me if I’m correct Mom. For the past few months, we have heard so much about the march to Socialism/Marxism and etc. I remember the tin foil hatters saying that Bush was going to keep the presidency by creating a crisis, and then declaring martial law. Now we are hearing the same thing about Obama. Is this what you have in mind Mom when you are saying you shouldn’t have to provide ID? I don’t agree with it, but is that where you are coming from?

    If this is not your angle Mom, then it’s time for me to either back away or to see this as requiring a “willing suspension of disbelief” to read on.

  • navychick1993
  • LibRick

    now I feel really old. Thanks for that.

    Actually, I also have a son is in law enforcement, as well as many relatives and friends. his is precisely why I believe that law enforcement officers are human and should no be above reproach.

    The issue here has devolved to a personal “who’s side are you on thing” I agree with you on the examples you cited. Everyone knows a cop’s job is hard, especially their family. But it does not make an officer right all the time. That’s what the law is for.

    In this case there are no charges (no law broken), yet the issue continues. I was just weighing in with the notion, as mom2oneson, expressed, that one should at least have a bit of freedom in their own home.

    I don’t really care about Gates or his silly personal issues. I care about me and my right to conduct myself lawfully on my own property as I see fit without being arrested for my “get off my lawn” speech, no matter who’s confronting me. So, call me a curmudgeon.

  • mom2oneson

    bad use of a pronoun
    What I was trying to communicate was:
    When the citizen is yelling
    the police officier should keep in mind what the citizen just went through, having to prove his identity in his own home, that is going to be upsetting for anyone.

  • randy streu

    But that isn’t the issue in this case. If it was just a cop banging on the door and demanding the guy come outside, with no explanation as to the reason, then sure. I’d be right there with you. But in THIS CASE, which is the case we’re talking about, that’s not what happened.

    This is really just a huge strawman in this issue.

    Nobody is talking about whether, in general, cops have the right to come into your house and demand identification and do a property search (except, of course, the two of you). I think you’d find a lot of allies were that the case, myself included. What we’re talking about here is a phonecall of suspicious activity, and a possible crime in progress. We’re talking about a very simple situation that was escalated, NOT because of the lawful and prudent actions of the officer involved (again, in THIS case — I don’t give two $–ts about cops in other situations right now), but because of some jackass who wanted to make himself a victim.

  • Aaron Gardner

    Mom….you were wrong here, just walk it back and admit it and you will be better off for it.

    The context of the call required the cops to request proof that Gates did indeed live there. You can’t get around this fact. The cops were protecting Gates’ rights and his property and the property of Harvard.

    Those are the facts…..those aren’t changing.

  • randy streu

    Until there is, again, the point is moot.

  • mom2oneson

    but not from Obama/Bush types. My POV or interest is with parents being coerced out of their rights or flat out violated by the state, especially parents with special needs children. I was led to redstate due to a discussion about it here. :) Good call. :)

  • janis

    had just gone through? The officer was called to investigate a possible breaking and entering claim. In many of these cases, violence accompanies the break-in. People are killed, women are raped, etc. Police officers are trained to observe and deal with upset people. That’s the reason why Crowley kept trying to get Gates to calm down and why he turned to walk back to his patrol car. Gates refused to stop and he got what he deserved.

    Just read a short piece on the news from the neighboring rural county. Woman (white) at a local motel was causing a disturbance. The motel owner asked her to stop, she refused, the cops were called. They asked her to quiet down, she refused, they asked for ID, she refused and started verbally abusing the cops. Then she threatened them at which point she got cuffed and stuffed. She didn’t give a rat’s a** about the cops’ feelings, the motel owners feelings or the feelings of the other guests at the motel.

    And Gates didn’t care about anything other than his own pride and the opportunity to stick it to the cops.

  • LibRick

    How about:

    Cum hoc ergo propter hoc: — regarding your statements on Gates’ racial intentions

    Denying the antecedent: — regarding your statements on black vs white as a motivation.

    Argumentum ad populum — regarding your statements about the popular notion that authorities are right. — which would trigger argumentum ad verecundiam.

    And Aaron — I’m not trying to be either right or wrong, so admitting to one or the other is would be insincere.

  • Scope

    Several years ago, my husband and I rented a house in Princeton, N.J. At about 3 o’clock in the morning, we were awoken by flashing blue lights, and then flashlight light shinning on the living room walls. My husband went to the door, and the cop wanted my husbands ID. My husband complied, and then he wanted to know if there was anyone else in the house. My husband came and got me, and I showed my ID. The cop then told us that there was a fatal car accident in Maryland, and one of the vehicles left the scene. He had the license plate number, and it came up with the property owners daughter was the vehicle owner, and that our address was listed as her current address. He asked if he could have a “look around”, and we immediately gave him permission. He looked in each room, and closet, and basement. He thanked us for our time, appologized for waking us up, and left.

    I would cooperate with any police request, because I want them to protect me if necessary.

  • Scope

    Several years ago, my husband and I rented a house in Princeton, N.J. At about 3 o’clock in the morning, we were awoken by flashing blue lights, and then flashlight light shinning on the living room walls. My husband went to the door, and the cop wanted my husbands ID. My husband complied, and then he wanted to know if there was anyone else in the house. My husband came and got me, and I showed my ID. The cop then told us that there was a fatal car accident in Maryland, and one of the vehicles left the scene. He had the license plate number, and it came up with the property owners daughter was the vehicle owner, and that our address was listed as her current address. He asked if he could have a “look around”, and we immediately gave him permission. He looked in each room, and closet, and basement. He thanked us for our time, appologized for waking us up, and left.

    I would cooperate with any police request, because I want them to protect me if necessary.

  • randy streu

    it doesn’t.

  • LibRick

    Keep speaking. Everyone here, while they may disagree on an issue, likes and respects your voice. I bet Janis agrees.

  • Scope

    I could not figure out why anyone would be so stuck on something as simple as an ID. I read so many posts on other sites from people who are so scared to death of the coming communism with Obama, they really have gone overboard with it. Glenn Beck doesn’t help the situation. Do I but it in the Gates situation, no, absolutely not. But, I wanted to find out where the fear was coming from.

  • Scope

    I could not figure out why anyone would be so stuck on something as simple as an ID. I read so many posts on other sites from people who are so scared to death of the coming communism with Obama, they really have gone overboard with it. Glenn Beck doesn’t help the situation. Do I but it in the Gates situation, no, absolutely not. But, I wanted to find out where the fear was coming from.

  • LibRick

    Gates=wrong, Crowley=right. Your statement presumes authority over Mom2oneson’s opinion on this matter. Are you privy to more information (facts) than she?

    Perhaps you should consider the context of your remarks.

  • Aaron Gardner

    Cum hoc ergo propter hoc: ? regarding your statements on Gates? racial intentions

    Gates made his intentions clear by his own statements and his continued insistence that he was a victim of racial profiling….even though the Officers involved were responding to a 911 call.

    Denying the antecedent: ? regarding your statements on black vs white as a motivation.

    This is what the man teaches, this is what the man has done. He made the statement…”this is what happens to a black man in America”. He pitted all blacks against the establishment…one headed oddly enough by someone of African descent.

    Argumentum ad populum ? regarding your statements about the popular notion that authorities are right. ? which would trigger argumentum ad verecundiam.

    This would only be true if I had no knowledge of the facts and instead was relying on popular notion. I am not relying on a popular notion that the authorities were correct….I am relying on the law and the facts. Furthermore I am isolating my approval of the Cops actions to this specific situation rather then applying it as a standard to be followed in all instances.

    To the question of whether we should obey all commands given by an officer of the law….I would say to do so only to the extent of the commands legality.

    So in short…try again.

  • mom2oneson

    I love everyone too!!! :-)

  • aesthete

    The facts, which have been documented extensively elsewhere, support Crowley. Gates stated that this was a classic case of the police vs blacks, when that simply isn’t the case. At worst, the arrest of Gates after his stunt was questionable, but that’s not racism. Therefore, Gates=wrong, Crowley=mostly right. That’s the “context of my remarks”.

  • LibRick

    I totally get your point but would add that there are a lot of strawmen on this issue. I honestly don’t have a problem with any of the opinions posted here. I guess this issue is grist for the media mill and based on the comments here, we’re all buying.

  • LibRick

    What happened to innocent until proven guilty?

  • Aaron Gardner

    I am not even sure I should dignify that with a response.

  • Common_Cents

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56B5A8CGN98

  • LibRick

    I respect where Aaron comes from and you too for that matter.. As one of the few libs on this site,(by Redstate standards anyway), I throw my views out there. I like it that you guys challenge me to really think about issues.

    Don’t tell Aaron, but he and some others have actually changed my mind on some issues.

  • Vegas_Rick

    if I came home and had to break in my house, and a few minutes later a cop knocked on the door to ask for my id. I’d ask why. He’d say because there’s been a report of a break-in to this residence.

    At that point, I would invite the officer in to check my house for intruders while I get my ID out.

  • LibRick

    Thanks. You and I both know, I reached into that sophistic bag that could go on forever.

    I get your finer points…and like other issues before, let’s agree to disagree — though I don’t think we are in any major disagreement on this issue. :)

  • mom2oneson

    Scope wanted to know where I was coming from. It is related, citizens having rights vs the state.

  • LibRick

    I trivialized the issue and apologize if you read that as my intent. I’ve commented all over on this thread. I understand the law enforcement perspective here and the racial play going..

    My belief is that a person on their own property should not be arrested for stating their verbal opinion, however offensive it is to others — even the police. Different story if you get me off my property and onto the sidewalk. If that makes me a radical leftist, so be it. I assumed this was a value that conservatives held dear to their heart.

  • mom2oneson
  • mom2oneson

    but when the job requires dealing with people with intense feelings or pain they person needs to be aware and use common sense of why they are upset and how to help them calm down or let it go knowing they will calm down at another time. Especially in this situation where it was the police action that upset him. He wasn’t called there because Gates was disturbing the peace. I think the whole race issue is wrong too.

  • LibRick

    Please tell me. Television? Blogs? Radio? In that case which stations or web sites? Have you compiled a consensus opinion on it or you presuming the media you choose to frequent hold the facts?

    The only fact is that an incident occurred and no charges were filed. Anyone can state opinion. Mom2oneson did and I did. You did too. Agree or disagree. It’s your opinion, based on info you got from your media of choice. If you have certain facts pertaining to this incident, please share.

  • Swamp_Yankee

    You are really pushing the limits to defend your position. Do you want to get into some metaphysical argument about truth and facts. I guess there aer no facts. The police reports does not count, the 911 tapes do not count, the arrest tapes do not count, Gates own statement doenst count, Crowley’ statement doesnt count, the review performed by the police chief doesnt count, the testimony of black Sgt. Leon Lashley, who was at the scene doesn’t count.

    There are no facts. Is the sky really blue. Is the grass really green Am I really here.

  • aesthete

    character testimonies, circumstantial evidence, and the context of the incident (that Crowley was there to investigate claims of a burglary, and not just cruising around with his racist views set to stun) all point to the fact that Crowley was in the right, and that Gates was in the right. Would it be enough for a court of law to determine either way? Probably not, but it is enough for reasonable people to come to a logical conclusion.

    Don’t you find it incredible that no one who has any sort of direct knowledge (neighbors, fellow cops, etc.) agrees with Gates’ interpretation of the events? It’s almost as astounding as the fact that many of those who are removed from the incident report Gates’ in the face of all evidence available.

  • http://andrightlyso.com/ civil_truth

    Is your issue the request to Gate for ID or the arrest of Gates on his porch? You folks appear to be more focused on the latter.

    If it’s the request for ID, I think the posters here at RedState have made a virtually unrefutable case that the request was reasonable – and indeed necessary – under the specific circumstance of a neighbor having reported a breaking and entering of Gates’ home. In this case, the officer has the duty to obtain and verify the identity of those who are found in the house.

    Are we in agreement that the request was reasonable?

    And please note that Mr. Gates’ public complaints appear to focus around an accusation that the act of his being asked to produce ID was the result of and proof of racial profiling.

    Everything I’ve read indicates that Mr. Gates had that presumption and did not even ask for an explanation before his tirades began. And it was this presumption that led to escalation because he never investigated that presumption before jumping to his conclusion.

    Plus, there is the further issue that if he was convinced that he was being profiled, was the appropriate response on his part to become verbally abusive towards the investigating officer? I don’t think anyone could say that would be advisable.

    So I can see no defense for Mr. Gates’ behavior to this point.

    ————————————————–

    Moving on, the evidence we have is that Mr. Gates began to berate the officer and call him a racist; the officer walked away and was followed to the porch, where a crowd began to gather.

    The question then becomes, was the officer behave appropriately in arresting Mr. Gates after warning him to be quiet?

    Here I think we need more information to determine whether he followed department guidelines. Several questions I see would include: 1) could Officer Crowley have defused the situation by walking awat? 2) Was OC in a position to walk away, or did he have to stay in proximity pending arrival of the Harvard police. 3) If a crowd was gathering, assuming OC was in a position to leave, was it safe to allow tirade to continue, or did that risk the danger of a public riot or group assault on the officer if he had to walk into the crowd to reach the car? 3a) Was the language of Gates “fighting words” that unchecked could have incited mob violence?

    We don’t have the answers. We do have to give some deference to the officer’s judgment unless the prevailing evidence comes out that he was outside the range of police procedure.

    In any case, the actions of President Obama and Gov. Patrick in rashly jumping to judgment were highly irresponsible given their high office.

  • randy streu

    You have yet to answer the fundamental questions about how the two are related — quesitons which have been asked more than once. You simply keep repeating the same generalities over and over as though they’ll magically gain meaning if you repeat them enough. They won’t.

    So until there are answers to the following four VERY EASY questions, I’m going to bow out of this discussion:

    1. In THIS SPECIFIC CASE, what rights were being violated, or would have been “waived” by Crowley showing his ID.

    2. If somebody broke into your house and claimed to live there, would you or would you not want the responding officer to verify his identification and story?

    3. How, in the above scenario, is a police officer supposed to know the truth of the situation without asking for identification? Should he simply take the guy’s word for it? Is the cop psychic and just KNOWS these things?

    4. How, without respect to outcome, is that situation different from the Gates situation?

  • randy streu

    that should be “Gates showing his ID”

  • JadedByPolitics

    the officer gave a LAWFUL order and the person refused that was his first mistake then the officer gave a second LAWFUL order for him to step outside of the house and which point he then showed his school id which still did not make him the OWNER of the house and then he started abusing the officer. When the police give a LAWFUL order you had better follow or no matter your color you will be arrested. If you don’t like those circumstances than get out of your house and get elected those Governor’s and Assemblymen and women who CREATE the laws upon which the police work by.

    The laws were followed by the police officer the fact that you don’t like it doesn’t make them any less the law!

  • randy streu

    but in general, I’d agree: taken by themselves, the basic ideas represented in these comments are fine. The problem is that these very fine ideals are being smashed together with this story, which is a spearate issue entirely. Which is unfortunate.

  • Scope

    as everyone commenting here have. As I said, it requires a willing suspension of disbelief that would keep you commenting, and trying to glean any real argument for not showing your ID.

  • aesthete
  • jyalai

    Once Officer Crowley was satisfied that Gates was who he said he was, he should have exited as quickly and politely as possible. The question is whether Gates made it difficult for him to do so without feeling threatened.

    I have officers in my family. I understand, to a certain extent, how they think and how they are trained. They will escalate until they are in control. Not being in control could mean life or death for them or those around them,

    From what I have gathered so far, Gates was verbally abusive to the officer from the beginning and throughout the exchange. Somewhere along the line, Officer Crowley made the decision that he needed to get back in control of the situation. Since Gates refused to calm down after a verbal warning, Crowley escalated to arresting him for disorderly conduct to get back in control of the situation. IMHO, this action would be textbook for most officers.

    Whether it is right to arrest someone for yelling at you is a whole separate question.

  • DONTREADONME

    I for one believe the cop should have tasered the man because it seems to me that he obviously was itching to generate a race issue out of his incovenience. Yeah, I know that would have looked worse, but I for one think cyring racism is the contemporary “Crying wolf”, and darn it I want the wolf to bite.

    edgy/politically incorrect enough for you? tough, choke on it. There is no question this doofus professor is looking to feed his askewed view of the world.

  • http://applescorneroftheorchard.blogspot.com/ Pomme

    was once held in the back of a police car for three hours while walking home from work in Minneapolis once. Turns out, a man wearing a similar coat robbed and shot a local store clerk. My husband handed over his ID, and supplied names and numbers for coworkers he had just left.

    No harm, no foul, really. (Well, except my heartburn at his late return.) All things considered, he was better off for having complied and the officers were more than happy to help us a month later when we had an issue.

  • mom2oneson

    “The better course is not to start off the contact in confrontation mode. If you haven?t done anything, why be a jerk about it”

    The first sentence I totally agree wtih. I would never curse or yell but in some cases I can see how a easily a man might be provoked to it. It’s the second sentence I have a problem with. If being a jerk means waiving your rights why does that mean being a jerk? The whole if you haven’t done anything type should be that we are innocent and that is enough, not that we should have to waive are rights when we are the suspect of a crime. If I was an innocent crime suspect I wouldn’t say a thing to the police, I wouldn’t curse and yell and call them names like Gates, but I wouldn’t say a peep until I spoke to a lawyer. I’d probably be crying the whole time but I still would not speak.

  • tanstaafl1019

    Gates WAS the suspect. You should watch “Cops” sometime, and see how many times the driver in a stolen car claims it’s his own. In the eyes of any officer responding to a report like this, the guy in the house is classified only as a suspect until he can produce some ID with an address on it.

    This conversation has gotten ridiculous. It sounds like a scene from “The Naked Gun.” Lt. Frank Drebin is called to burglary; man inside house says, “Oh, I live here.” Lt. Drebin tips his hat and says, “Carry on!”

    I hope your local police never respond to a burglary in progress at your house. You’re likely to get cleaned out.

  • mom2oneson

    This afternoon I had to get ready for relative to stay with us tomorrow. I will reply asap. :) I’m taking a break here eating my lunch. :)

  • http://www.marklaiminger.org Lammo

    Whether you are waiving rights or not when requested to provide ID all depends on the situation. If you are in a car stopped for a traffic infraction in my state the driver is required to provide ID just because they are the driver but passengers are not absent a specific reason (e.g. not wearing a seat belt). If you are found inside a building in the wee small hours and a burglar alarm is going off then the police have a reason to request your ID to determine whether or not you have the right to be where you are (e.g., tenant or owner of the building). If you are just walking along the street, the police don’t have to have a reason to just approach and talk to you but they also will not have any reason to demand your ID. In that case you should be able to politely refuse and suffer no consequence. You should even be able to be a jerk about it in that instance and any consequence that follows should not stand. I guess what I’m trying to get a cross is that your “rights” are going to vary depending on the circumstances so there is no one size fits all answer to this issue. Hope this helps.

    Mark.