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The woman with the twenty-dollar bill.

The woman* in question was at Norm Dicks‘ (D, WA-06, D+5) town hall, and dared the Congressman to take her money.  As in, she brandished a twenty dollar bill and told Dicks to come and get it, if he wanted her money so badly.


(See also Hot Air and Ace of Spades HQ.)

Which Dicks of course did not, being a Democratic career politician whose instincts have rusted over the years. What the woman meant by all of this is addressed below.

I will conceal nothing from you: while some of my best friends are libertarians, I’m not one, particularly – and I’m less of one than when I was younger.  But I know enough about them to recognize one when I see one; and this particular speaker was pretty clearly a libertarian.  And while I’m also not the sort to have memorized Lysander Spooner, I can recognize his arguments when they show up, too:

The fact is that the government, like a highwayman, says to a man: “Your money, or your life.” And many, if not most, taxes are paid under the compulsion of that threat.

The government does not, indeed, waylay a man in a lonely place, spring upon him from the roadside, and, holding a pistol to his head, proceed to rifle his pockets. But the robbery is none the less a robbery on that account; and it is far more dastardly and shameful.

The highwayman takes solely upon himself the responsibility, danger, and crime of his own act. He does not pretend that he has any rightful claim to your money, or that he intends to use it for your own benefit. He does not pretend to be anything but a robber. He has not acquired impudence enough to profess to be merely a “protector,” and that he takes men’s money against their will, merely to enable him to “protect” those infatuated travellers, who feel perfectly able to protect themselves, or do not appreciate his peculiar system of protection. He is too sensible a man to make such professions as these. Furthermore, having taken your money, he leaves you, as you wish him to do. He does not persist in following you on the road, against your will; assuming to be your rightful “sovereign,” on account of the “protection” he affords you. He does not keep “protecting” you, by commanding you to bow down and serve him; by requiring you to do this, and forbidding you to do that; by robbing you of more money as often as he finds it for his interest or pleasure to do so; and by branding you as a rebel, a traitor, and an enemy to your country, and shooting you down without mercy, if you dispute his authority, or resist his demands. He is too much of a gentleman to be guilty of such impostures, and insults, and villainies as these. In short, he does not, in addition to robbing you, attempt to make you either his dupe or his slave.

I present this passage not because I really agree with it – it’s, ah, a touch extremist – but because I’m pretty sure that the woman* who went after Dicks agrees with it more than I do; and it behooves conservatives to see what our libertarian cousins are doing with the growing populist movement out there. The short version is, they’re influencing its underlying message.  There have been some very silly people out there who have decided that the movement symbolized by the Tea Party meme is somehow beneath their notice as conservatives; too unwashed, too uncivilized, too loud.  So they’ve consciously disassociated themselves with it – and subconsciously assumed that, without their association, the movement will lack the intellectual framework that it needs to grow and thrive.  Which was a blunder only surpassed by the Democratic party’s decision to follow the lead of the progressives and attack the movement using the crudest sexual terms; because if a movement truly needs an intellectual underpinning, it’ll go out and get one – and the libertarians were more than happy to oblige.

Does this mean a third party is coming?  No.  The Libertarian party is simply not designed to win national elections; and most of the population instinctively operates in a two-party paradigm that won’t be broken this election cycle, this decade, or quite possibly my lifetime.  But just because the Republican party will be stronger after next year’s elections doesn’t mean that it has to resemble the Republican party that we have now… or the Republican party that mainline conservatives themselves wish to institute.  So some people may want to reconsider how engaged they actually want to be, if they want to be engaged in January 2011…

Moe Lane

*Who may be Liberty Belle of Redistributing Knowledge.

Crossposted to Moe Lane.

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COMMENTS

  • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

    Libertarians/libertarians, that is, and as I’ve been saying for quite some time, Republicans aren’t going to be able to win here without them.

  • blooch

    in a while, and there he was Friday afternoon.

    Don’t need a highwayman to know which way the wind blows, do you, Maharushie?

    Megadittos.

  • Coastie

    I say ‘come and take it’ is a nice turn of a phrase.

    And take it for what? Not healthcare, despite all the noise. The other side has us duped. I think many folks who could use healthcare have made a judgment that other things are more important to them: newer car, a/c, acrylic nails, whatever. Not stuff the $20 woman or I would deem higher priority than healthcare. But it’s our money, so our priorities should reign. In effect, because in their places she and I would make other, better, choices with our own money, like use it for healthcare, in effect the money coming from other people (taxes) is buying the stuff prudent taxpayers would consider lower order: the $200 sneakers, MickyD’s 3 times a week, the odd night clubbing. Of course I on the other hand still get to drive my 13 year-old car — not because I can’t buy brand new, with cash, but because I live prudently and the car is in great shape.

  • Richard Mullins

    The Libertarian spirit is alive and needs to be harnessed.

  • DavidSage

    Most of my leanings are libertarian, and it always seemed common sense to me that the Republican Party where was the best vehicle to push for smaller government. I’m amazed at how many libertarians, however, have an all or nothing attitude. I’m hoping more fence sitters will now see the true face of Democrat Party, and more Libertarians will find a home in the Republican Party. It’s easy to see that all the energy, passion, and activism against the Left seems to currently be coming from the libertarian wing of the Party, whereas in the 80′s it was more from social conservatives.

    Leftists and Socialists have no qualms about being part of the Democrat Party because they know most of their goals have the best chance with a major political party. Strangely, many libertarians seem to not see things the same way. If there was one idea I thought all libertarians could agree on, it was their opposition to socialism. Well, it’s here on our doorstep, and the only real defense against socialism in this country is the Republican Party. Maybe we can put aside our differences, join ranks against a common enemy, and argue about the pot and pornography later.

  • Michael Dugas

    With the Pot and Porn references. And don’t bring up our isolationist tendencies so much either ok. Let’s keep it to less government intrusion in our lives, major tax reform, tort reform, the death of federal mandates etc. A push to cut waste and fraud in Medicare might be a nice touch as would a realistic Energy Plan that keeps us drilling, pumping and refining while at the same time creating significant tax incentives or some such programs pushing the research and development of other replenish-able energy sources
    with the stated goal being energy independence.
    And on a personal note enough with the social engineering taxes like on beer and cigarettes and junk food etc! If the price of Twinkies and Cheetos keeps going up like this I won’t be responsible for the repercussions.

  • http://www.theminorityreportblog.com/blog/loren_heal Socrates

    I am quite pleased at this.

    The Tea Partiers are no mystery. We’re Americans. Being Americans, we believe that government has no special privilege to spend money it doesn’t have, and least of all for things it doesn’t need. We know that eventually it will come to us and our children for that money, quite possibly well after the time of our common ruination.

  • bk

    Her position is symbolic of much of what I think of is coming from the outrage we’ve seen this summer. “I earned this money, not you. Keep your damn hands off of it!” This is certainly an area of complete agreement between conservatives and libertarians.

  • bk

    It seemed that there was a real buy-in to all the “social justice” “we’re the ones looking out for the little guy” lies of the Democratic party. In the past few years we’ve started to see a real shift to where the church and bishops are much more outspoken about the true face of the Democratic party – 1) abortion on demand and 2) give us all your money and WE’LL decide on how to dole it out to charities: AIG, GM, Chrysler, Fannie, Freddie, anything Jeff Immelt runs, etc.

    The Catholic Church finally seems to be getting it that the Democratic Party of Teddy Kennedy bears little resemblance to the Democratic Party of John Kennedy. Let’s hope the average Catholic gets it too.

  • dudette

    Catholics have been misled for years—the seminaries and convents have been infiltrated by hard leftists to water down the church”s message and indoctrinate the faithful. There has been an ongoing onslaught of this kind of stuff even before the 60′s that have tried affecting the Church’s position on things like capital punishment, illegal immigration—-positions that lean left in a squishy emotional liberal way—-but that type of emotional reasoning has been frowned on historically in the church, and the church used to (I speak of Catholic schools which I atteneded) encourage critical intelligent reasoning. But the secular humanism that is the vehicle for the left has survived and thrives in the Church–not all areas, but has gotten a foothold,

  • jccbin

    Not the Conservatives, but the “merely” Republican.

    The fundamental reason I became politically active after all these years is simple: It is MY money.

    It is NOT the public’s money. It is not money for the greater good. It is MY money.

    What I do with it is MY business.

  • http://moelane.com/ Moe Lane

    …on April 15th because I was confused about what was going on. :)

  • jccbin

    but there is a tight little group of Rs who still think they can game the system, and they must be ruthlessly prodded.

    God Bless Redstate!

    :-)

  • The_Gadfly

    On the way to State College this weekend there were a bunch of people at one of the roadside stops protesting in favor of a law legalizing pot for medical purposes. Some of them may have been actual Libertarians, but mostly they looked like people who were more interested in using it for non-medicinal purposes, although their spot for protesting was well chosen.

    For those of you who have never made the sojourn to State College on football weekend, you need to know the trip is quite an undertaking, especially if you are traveling on game day, which is reasonably frequent. When I was there more than 20 years ago, what I will call the normal population of the town was about 20,000 people. The university added another 32,000 people during the school year. The stadium seats about 107,000 people, and is usually full. So on game day there are about 60,000 non-residents trying to make their way to the middle of the commonwealth. If you are coming from the east, PA route 322 is pretty much the only way in. Most of the way it is a divided highway with two lanes on either side. Until you get about 20 miles outside of State College, where it ever so conveniently merges into a non-divided two lane road. The rest stop where the protesters were setup was just a couple miles after the merge.

    Anyway, speaking as a paleo/social conservative, I expect Libertarians to fight for their social issues the same way I fight for mine. But welcome your support in areas where we concur. As Moe and many others have noted, half a loaf is better than none. So the question for Libertarians seems to be ‘Which half do you want?’ because the third party route doesn’t seem to be working. And in pitching for my side of the party aisle, I’d say you’re better off going with us, because after you’ve gotten the fiscal half of your loaf, the social half will still be there to argue about. But if you opt for the social half, not only will the fiscal half go away, you might even lose the social half.

  • javadoug

    And your way of thinking, Mr. Lane, is exactly why the Republicans are losing. You completely underestimate the sentiment of average americans that it is immoral for government to take our money. So go ahead, and continue to underestamate us. Look at the tea parties, and you will see the true sentiments and the true grass roots. But be very very careful when you underestimate us. I used to be registered as a Republican, but when I see, year after year, the Republicans adopting the same statism as the Democrats, I register Libertarian, and I will not support Republicans until they get back to the ’94 rhetoric of smaller government.

  • blooch

    I think you will find in the MoeSpeak that he is in no way underestimating you and your kind.

  • http://impudent.blognation.us/blog kyle8

    I think the time is ripe to make Pot reform a big part of the conservative/libertarian movement. The hard core drug warriors are really pushing a failed agenda, and a VAST majority of those under the age of 35 are in favor of the modification or repeal of many marijuana laws.

    Anything that increases personal freedoms and decreases the size scope, centralization, or power of government is at this time, a good thing to me.

    It is not ALWAYS a good thing, but we have way too much government in our lives right now. I say push for all the libertarian things that you can because Moe is right, the new Republican party will be different than the Bush-led Republican party.

    And that is a good thing.

  • http://moelane.com/ Moe Lane

    After all, I *am* pretty cheerfully noting that the libertarian impulses in the Tea Party movement are going to rebound to the GOP’s benefit, not the Libertarians’. Or at least *a* GOP’s benefit, which is probably not going to be the one that, say, Bruce Bartlett wants to belong to.

  • javadoug

    I was not advocating a 3rd party, but simply for all Republican representatives to embrace the same kind of Contract for American that Gingrich, et, al, put forth in ’94; only this time, don’t slowly revert back to statism after a number of years.
    Under Bush they spent too much.

  • http://moelane.com/ Moe Lane

    And we have some faint hope of getting that, too. :)

  • RJD

    Find out how much it takes to buy a politicians vote these days.

  • gahazzah

    I agree with the thought process or I wouldn’t be here as a libertarian reading and posting on RedState (a conservative (R) site). However I have never had the notion to join the (R) party simply because I never see any true reform where the libertarians and conservatives agree. It always seems to be “hey libertarians, we promise we’ll get to the small government reforms later once we add these sin taxes or gay marriage laws or drug laws or whathaveyou, we promise”.

    If the (R)s want the libertarians to embrace them then the issues brought up should be about things we can agree upon and there should be actions to follow up those issues.

    Many libertarians see the party divide as big government (D)s or big government (R)s and a bunch of lofty, and empty, promises mean nothing. It’s always seemed to me that the (R)s are more willing to go the bipartisan route with (D)s than to do the same within their own party (or with their own natural allies) in regards to the issues of smaller government of fiscal reform.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    Because when push comes to shove, the libertoids don’t show up to vote/give/run for office as Republicans. They vote the LP, they withhold donations, and they wave signs instead of trying to be credible Republicans.

    When the libertoid movement gets over its ego and decides to be a team player the Republican party, and therefore American politics overall, will shift in its direction. Not before.

  • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

    I think there are certain Republican candidates that libertarians (small and large L) will back with their money, time and votes. It’s one of the reasons why Ryan Frazier for the Colorado open Senate race has a large grassroots following. It’s important in certain areas where typical Republicans can’t win to look for candidates like this rather than continuing to watch the Democrats gain ground.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    Show up sometimes, stay home other times?

    That’s my point.

  • Achance

    Alaska has more than its fair share of outright sociopaths and the most sociopathic sociopaths live in a cabin off the grid and profess to be libertarians. If you wind up sitting beside one in a lodge or bar, just slip in something about Jews or the trilateral commission and before long you’ll be hearing about the black helicopters and be invited out to the place to see the tank and the machine guns (and we ain’t talking Class III dealers here).

  • Officious Intermeddler

    And the reason we “libertoids” don’t show up to vote/give/run for office as Republicans, and vote the LP, withhold donations, and wave signs instead of trying to be credible Republicans, is because the prevailing attitude towards us and our issues is thinly-veiled contempt, as evidenced by Neil’s silly rant.

    It’s not “ego” that keeps me from pulling the lever for the GOP; it’s simply ambivalence about, for example, which side of the abortion debate the incumbent statist kleptocrats happen to come down on, when I’d prefer not to be governed by statist kleptocrats in the first place. I’ll be happy to “be a team player in the Republican Party” the moment that the Republican Party demonstrates a commitment to the issues that move me. Not before.

  • http://moelane.com/ Moe Lane

    The ‘both sides are the same’ argument abruptly died the True Death at about the time that this graphic became appropriate:

    Yeah.  NO difference at all.

    But, hey, we can come back in six months and see if you still can’t tell the difference between the two parties.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    But the left wing of the Republican party has a lot more success getting thing done than you guys do.

    It’s ego. They’re willing to be disliked and still get their way. You guys have pity parties instead.

    I guess that’s why the left of the Republican Party has had a lot of success in the last 30 years, while the Libertarian Party is a total failure.

  • Officious Intermeddler

    “Their guys are worse!”

    Well, okay, if you say so. But I said: “I?ll be happy to ?be a team player in the Republican Party? the moment that the Republican Party demonstrates a commitment to the issues that move me.”

    One issue that moves me is small government and low taxes. One issue that does not move me is “sucking somewhat less than the Democrats”.

  • Officious Intermeddler

    So that’s a pretty spectacularly misaimed insult.

    As for pity-parties, whatever. You guys are the ones who’ve just earned two consecutive electoral drubbings. I’m perfectly content to point and laugh, and watch as you try to figure out why libertarians don’t tow the Republican line despite Republican governance being, in the libertarian view, only slightly less worthless than Democratic governance.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    Why is it every time I take a libertoid like you seriously, you guys all show yourselves to be posting in bad faith?

  • Richard Mullins

    of the Hard core libertarians. They live in a utopia that exists in their minds just the hard left has their utopia. Some thing that libertarians believe only works in Theory. Small government works but the drug legalization only would work if the doped up and coked up can be shot if they pester those that don’t get doped up and coked up. Closing the border they way some want, forgets what it does to plants and people in the Rio Grande valley(not to mention property on both sides of the border). If a libertarian can push congress to meet in an 140 day session per term, that would be good.

  • Husker

    As unloved as Specter is feeling at the moment, you could probably buy him with a Klondike Bar.

  • http://moelane.com/ Moe Lane

    …that the place for an *ambitious* libertarian is in the GOP.

  • gahazzah

    Why do expect the libertarians to give up their basic belief structure to support a party which never seems to support them? Why don’t the (R)s step back and actually get to the small government stuff you guys claim to love so much.

    The (R)s always champion small government and Reagan and yet when libertarians do so they get besmirched and called names. I do not appreciate the lack of respect you just showed me and those who think like me in the libertarian ideology.

    Be respectful, or be banned. No Profanity.

    I suppose name calling is the new system of respect around here?

  • gahazzah
  • Richard Mullins

    Really, we call it as it is and the moonbat libertarians that want their way every time(we do want to give you most of what you want as long as the things we Conservatives[not the one-sided conservatives] get what need for us to stay in the party). If we gave you every thing, the Republian party would become the Libertarian party and the Conservatives will be a party of another party(can’t have that). We are respectful to reasonable people.

  • gahazzah

    If you read above you started the fight by calling names, first with libertoid and then with flaky. Way to poke somebody with a stick and then kick’em out for not playing nice.

    We libertarians often know that the LP is a joke which is why we use the term with the lower-case l as to signify we’re not a part of the ridiculous party. We likewise show up and participate on sites with a conservative bent because we know our natural allies, it’s sad that you do not.

    I’m all for working with (R)s provided it doesn’t always come back to “that guy is worse” and nothing more. We know Obama is worse. No duh. But just like it took Carter to get Reagan it’s taken Obama for the GOP to read it’s own platform.

    WORSE is not a good motivator, it’s a Bill Cosby skit.

  • gahazzah

    I didn’t start with the name-calling.

    All I’ve been asking for is limited government and State’s Rights regarding issues not enumerated in Article 1, Section 8 of the US Constitution. Now I’m a moonbat AND a libertoid.

    Funny, I thought the GOP stood for those things.

  • Michael Dugas

    My post was serious with a touch of humor at the end. Or at least I thought it was humor =). I just think it’s not at the top of the list in importance.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    Did you read what he wrote? He’s cheering Republican defeat. He admitted his real motivation and purpose: to mock us.

    So I gacked him.

    You’re picking the wrong battle here, gahazzah.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    You are not a special little snowflake. You are just like everybody else.

    Nobody gets everything they want from the Republican party. Not one person.

    Suck it up. It’s part of life in a society.

    Way to prove my point by the way. You have no courage of your convictions. You’d rather curl up in a hole and whine to mommy that the big mean world isn’t treating you nice, than take it like a man and fight for what you believe in.

    Political “independence” and third parties are the choices of moral cowards with no will to fight, ever.

  • Michael Dugas

    Whenever any chat about Libertarian views/beliefs comes up quite a few of you become rude in your dealings with them. This string is an example. The insults and name calling didn’t start with them.
    And to call Libertarians an all or nothing group is not correct. I have had a LOT of contact with some very vocal pro life groups, I myself am pro life, and I have never met a more all or nothing one issue group.
    Every political party is sort of like a family. There are always going to be sub groups or branches with in that family that others don’t like or totally agree with. The skill is in still holding that family together DESPITE those differences. There have been a lot of Republicans on this site that have said exactly the same things as these Libertarians have been saying, that the party was ignoring its own platform and ideology and thus the huge electoral losses.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens
  • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

    That’s a really big chip on your shoulder. I talk about a real-world example of libertarians and Republicans working together to support a Republican candidate, and you have to pull attitude. Sometimes it hardly seems worth chewing through the restraints.

  • burgessputney

    though as a libertarian minded individual who is a member of, worked for, and votes Republican I do understand the concern and problems with the more “hard” line LP’ers. The fact is, those willing to sink with the LP aren’t really that important anyways. They are civil libertarians and libertarian socialists, and all sorts of nutty versions of classical liberals. I could go on… anarcho-capitalists, anarchists, Chomskites (yes ol Noam has a weird affection for some parts of libertarianism) and on and on. These elements are unimportant, superfluous, and all and all strange.
    However, libertarian Republicans, men like Jeff Flake of Arizona, men like Barry Goldwater, especially Goldwater who deviated from more religious focused conservative issues, do not fully agree with the mainstream Republican thought. Heck, Ron Paul, as nutty as he can be, has a lot to do with the Tea Parties, with the limited government movement, and the Audit the Fed push is his.
    The squeeze is this: Moe is right, the Tea Parties are going to give the GOP a bump, and if the GOP can follow through and hold onto this limited government sentiment, it can draw in some of the more hard line libertarians, those who lean right, and the more traditional libertarians who usually vote Republican anyways (though with McCain on the ballot last year they probably went for Barr…). The libertarians that vote Democrat are either lying to themselves or aren’t libertarians (again probably one of those strange libertarian socialist types). But, and I have tried to make this point in another post, the GOP must be willing to continue a fusionist strategy in order to be able to win across the country. The mid-west/southern religious/populist approach will be less welcome in the south-west where libertarianism has some hold or in the northern great plains where libertarianism and religious conservatism have competing holds, or on the east coast where Republicans are more of the moderate even dare I say Big Government breed (Snowe/Collins). The fact is we will get those libertarians who can understand the political impact they can make with some say and authority in the GOP and they are the ones who are politically relevant anyways.

  • Richard Mullins

    but a lot of other things you posted seem to put you on the outer end. Small government is one thing, but you want to alienate those don’t believe like you(you called yourself a libertarian and I identify as an Conservative[not just a social conservative]). I think you don’t get at all.

    Dude, you need to get some thicker skin, because you simply can’t stand the heat.

  • Richard Mullins

    otherwise libertarianism isn’t all that bad. No problems with smaller government, it just that some want to go to the extreme.

  • Michael Dugas

    nt

  • RJD

    That’s not what I want to do with a Klondike bar.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    If you meant it for me, you failed.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    The anti-Republicans are here in bad faith and deserve mocked before being tossed.

    Also the incredibly lazy and cowardly ones who won’t step up and do their part to try to steer an institution like the Republican Party, instead bravely voting for third parties from the secrecy of the ballot booth. Heck, with absentee ballots you don’t even have to leave the house to do that.

  • Richard Mullins

    at least we want the right thing to happen. I don’t like unproductive backbitters either.

  • Husker

    Point taken.

  • Michael Dugas

    in this string be a fail? And if you believe it so and feel the need to say so why limit it to just saying I failed followed by nothing? I have read your posts for years now and I never would have guessed that you would basically state there’s a place for derisive name calling in political discussion. And that name calling in this string did not originate with those espousing libertarian views. As conservative as my political views may be, and though I wish it weren’t so, there’s no way that the Republican Party can obtain the majorities we need without spill over from Libertarians and Independents etc.
    And if your Fail judgment is concerning my using pro life folks as an example well I don’t know what to tell you there, I know a whole lot of people, Republicans almost to a tee, who base their votes entirely on pro life stances. I’m not saying anything bad about that just using them as an example of what was being discussed.
    Republicans will obviously, barring some disaster, make advances in the next elections. That is good. What would really be nice is if those advances are for better ideas and not just because the Democrats suck at governing. If we were to ever gain the majority again I would hope we do something with it this time.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    Did you mean theabove post as a reply to me, or to Moe? Because you replied to Moe. If you meant it as a reply to me, you failed in the basic operation of the website.

    It has not hing to do with your opinions here.

  • clowngirl

    I share your frustration with their all-or-nothing and often extremist mentality but I wouldn’t regard them as almost-Republicans.

    The Libertarians I’ve known in Manhattan place a lot of emphasis on ideological purity – and do feel quite strongly about issues like drug legalization, legalizing prostitution, and “non-interventionist” foreign policy. I tried pretty hard to get them to support McCain ( for close to a month) and also sent a couple of faxes to the National LP making a case why they shouldn’t run a candidate who could only draw support away from the more pro- freedom of the two choices who actually had a chance of winning. They weren’t open at all. Most said Obama was probably the least scary of all the choices and even enjoyed the idea of being a spoiler.I finally accepted the fact I was trying to pound a square peg into a round hole.

    Don’t get me wrong, I’m still friendly with a lot of libertarians and I think they do a lot for the cause of freedom in their way (though in some ways they may do more damage) but their philosophy is distinct and frankly a little cultish. Individual libertarians can be lured over to the GOP and should be- but the whole party isn’t going to join in.

    Actually the Manhattan Libertarians are part of what lead me to the GOP in a round about way. They tried very hard to convert me – I read some Bovard – which both moved me to the right and strangely – because they were so extremist made me more less anti-establishment myself..and more open to a major party. Then (blush) I was planning to support Ron Paul – until I met some of his supporters (“there’s plans to euthanize 90% of the population”, “they’re creating a “super-race” of people that will live hundreds of years”, “and by the way did I mention the holocaust never happened?” – I only wish I was exaggerating) and did some research – wound up supporting McCain instead.

    I was turned off from him fairly quickly but it was Ron Paul that initially got me following the Republican primary and watching the debates. Seeing him included in the debate – so I could realize he was absolutely not what I wanted in a President – freed me to decisively reject him and realize I was actually much more of a Republican than a libertarian. So I think it’s good to include libertarians a lot.

    ( In case you’re curious – I was initially got involved with the MLP because I had been trying to repeal the PATRIOT ACT -later I toned down and wanted only to reform the PATRIOT ACT – which changed to no longer being so cocksure the PA is unconstitutional, seeing as the Constitution does allow for exceptions in a time of war, but still thinking it is potentially dangerous and wondering if we really need it. )

  • clowngirl

    never mind that some of their goals ( such as legalization of ALL drugs and prostitution, isolationist foreign policy ) are fundamentally in conflict with the GOP base. It makes no sense – but this is what I’ve heard at least from local Libs.

    I agree with Neil that they need to get over their egos.

    The more appealing the GOP is – the less folks will turn to 3rd parties.

  • Richard Mullins

    but the crux of problem is that the firm Libertarian is not a realist(if they were, they look closely at they say). 2/3′s of what the libertarians stand for can be brought in, but the social issues can’t(when they can find a country that at least 1/3 the population of the US that has legalized drugs let me know). Withholding votes from the GOP creates the problem[people that live in a man-maded utopia don't seem to understand]. You might want to remind them of that.

  • clowngirl

    If they continue to see principled stands from elected Republicans – particularly in the House… Libertarians who have a close congressional race are likely to find their hand slips over to the GOP lever.

    If it looks like the Republicans are really going to have a “wave” year and there’s a chance of unseating Pelosi – I doubt many libertarians will vote 3rd party if the race is in doubt- they can always vote for their comptroller candidate or something to appease their conscience.

    I expect Libertarians are much like anybody else who feels disenfranchised – if they have a compelling reason to support a candidate they’ll do it & it’s great that Libertarians and Republicans are being brought together by the tea parties. That should reinforce the fact that there is one major party that’s a LOT closer to their views than the other.

    And liking people – having some personal connection to members of a party makes a big difference.

  • gahazzah

    So stop pretending like you do.

    What you fail to grasp, as do most “conservatives” is that much of my ideology comes from two places — the US Constitution and the philosophy Barry Goldwater espoused in his book “Conscience of a Conservative”.

    I’ve never voted for LP in my life. I have voted for (R)s if the candidate has isn’t just a party hack. I sometimes vote in the (D) primary just for fun (open primary in CA) and because my state is so gerrymandered as to make those votes all but trivial.

    Never did I say I wanted the (R) or Conservatives to give up their egos. I said, repeatedly, that I want State’s Rights issues to be left up to the States. I don’t care if your state opts to ban drugs and gay marriage and whathaveyou. What I don’t want is a FEDERAL Government that has no business in affairs outside of Article 1, Section 8. If wanting to follow the US Constitution is alienating people who don’t believe like me, so be it. I’m not in need of thicker skin, you’re in need of reading glasses.

  • gahazzah

    Do you not know how to be respectful?

    1) I never claimed to be special.
    2) I never said I wanted everything from anybody. The only thing I want is Constitutionality and failing that, limited federal government.
    3) Drop the insults, they make you look weak.
    4) It takes more courage of one’s convictions to stand up for what one believes in the face of popular sentiments and party affiliations than it does to besmirch those who disagree and kotow to a party at all times.
    5) Political “independence” is a value based proposition, if you need a party to dictate your values to you than so be it. In CA where the (R)s have gerrymandered themselves into obscurity and have all but made a laughing stock of the state GOP (thanks Arnold) it makes more sense to vote with a set of principles than to simply shill for a party.

  • gahazzah

    My vote doesn’t belong to you, thus I am not “withholding” it from your party. If you want my vote you’re party will convince me it is worth my time to vote for your party.

    I vote for Ed Royce (R-CA) every election cycle because he is a stand-up guy and he believes in limited government.

    I voted for George W. Bush the first time because I was naive and hoped that a GOP controlled White House and Congress would lead to actual changes.

    I didn’t vote for Bush or Kerry because I didn’t care and didn’t think Kerry would win irregardless of the fact that my state was going to Kerry.

    I didn’t vote for Obama because I saw that trainwreck coming but I didn’t vote for McCain because 1) my state was going for Obama and 2) McCain didn’t meat my “minimum” qualifications. Worse doesn’t not factor into my voting vocabulary. I like the 1st Amendment, McCain-Fiengold went against that. I believe in a real border policy, McCain is for Amnesty (which didn’t work in 1986). I was against the bailouts, McCain was for them.

    I wasn’t looking for Reagan or Goldwater or anybody even near perfect. I was looking for somebody within reason. I would have voted for Palin but for McCain. Why? Because I’m a realist.

    If McCain had won we still would have gotten the bailouts. We still would be getting healthcare reform. We would have gotten amnesty. Et cetera.

    The difference? Under McCain it would have been less and slower which means it would have been socialism on the installment plan. With Obama all of the sudden the (R)s seem to have blown the dust off of their Constitutions and seem to have found themselves, somewhat when they’re not insulting their allies. That wouldn’t have happened with a McCain Presidency. Just like it didn’t happen with Bush.

  • gahazzah

    My post is full of errors. I know. Ugh.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens
  • The_Gadfly

    I suspect it comes from so many people who interfere with the local GOP party running things the way the local GOP party thinks they ought to. Being from another state where that is common I’ve got some sympathy for him. Now as to your points

    1) It’s not the explicit, it’s the implicit, and yes, it is there. I posted above that we should work together on issues where we agree and fight later over issues where we disagree. No reply to me, but you jumped right in to defend a droid who got gacked.
    2) Nice pipe dream. The longest that lasted was until 1932, some say it disappeared with the Civil War, others choose Wilson. Insisting on this as the only criteria in the current environment is one of those implicit things I referred to above. Yeah, I’d like a more Constitutional government too. I try to argue for it publicly, vote for it as much as I can living in The People’s Republic of Maryland, and verbally smackdown Republicans who don’t support it. But I also understand that the change needs to be made incrementally, because the body politic won’t withstand the kind of shock your prescription would deal to it.
    3) Demanding apologies for only the taunting parts of a response that includes factual data makes you look weak. Politics ain’t beanbag, and this is a political site. Oh, and Neil and I have tangled in the past, no demands from either of us to apologize for insulting the other guy, and you’ve gotten off lightly compared to what we said to each other.
    4) Neil doesn’t kowtow to anybody. None of the regular posters on this site do, and especially not the moderators. Now, most of will set aside differences after the primaries are over and support the party because it is at the very least the lesser of multiple evils. I even held my nose and voted for McCain last election, not that it was going to matter in my state. But that’s one of those compromises Neil referenced above that dealing with the real world requires.
    5) Nobody here has their values dictated to them by the Party. In fact, I’d say that excluding mobys, trolls, and kossacks, 90% of the postings are complaints or exhortations for the party to follow the values of its grassroots. You might also want to reread your civics books. The last time I checked the minority party doesn’t get to gerrymander anything. And California was a laughing stock well before Arnold was governor. Probably another one of those things that particularly annoy Neil, as there are some good people in California.

    You said you want smaller government, but instead of focusing on reducing government spending and then taxes so we can maintain some semblance of fiscal sanity, you went straight for the dope issue. That isn’t a way to build a coalition, and to me speaks more loudly than all of your complaints about our behavior. Oh, and for the record, I have actually once voted for a Libertarian (and still do if a Kossack is running unopposed). I knew the Kossack was going to win in a landslide, and I figured that maybe my vote would allow them to not have to fight for ballot access the following year. And at least if they had ballot access, they could campaign on some of the issues I support, like smaller government, even if it did mean supporting someone who disagrees with me on the dope issue. Interestingly, they maintained ballot access that year, but were unable to make anything of it in the subsequent election.

    Lastly, some friendly advice: when the rattlesnake is rattling, it’s usually not a good idea to go poking it with a stick.

  • http://impudent.blognation.us/blog kyle8

    you need to go back and re-read your posts, you were obnoxious and inordinately rude from the get go. Sometimes you have a bug up your arse and get all huffy.

    Try a little restraint. You know me, I am as much conservative as I am libertarian and I work with my local Republican precinct, But I was ticked off by some of the things you said in this thread.

    I know you are an administrator, but so much the more you should show a little restraint.

  • http://impudent.blognation.us/blog kyle8

    re read your posts, you jumped on libertarianism right off the bat. This always happens in these threads. Someone conservative will read anything at all by a libertarian and begin the hate parade. Then wonder why they are not drawn closer to the Republican party.

  • http://impudent.blognation.us/blog kyle8

    But it rarely happens. I can count on one hand the number of GOP senators that always make a principled stand on fiscal issues.

    And even then, fiscal issues are not enough. What many conservatives fail to understand is that it is the sheer size and power of government over our lives that matters.

    Suppose you get fiscal conservatives in the white house and they control congress, suppose they reform all the social welfare programs and cut taxes and make the economy boom.

    You really have not gained anything in the long run because they did nothing to cut the power of government, The electorate being fickle, and with short memories will in time reelect left wingers. And they will just pick up where they left off with the government meddling in our lives. Because the structure is still in place.

  • Richard Mullins

    I say this because it seems that you want things your way(I like limited government but at least I’m more reasonable about it). As for withholding thing, I wouldn’t give a red cent anyway. I don’t give people money and certainly not the like of you. I still wonder why you’re still here(you get what’s coming to you).

    If you want to not have errors, try FF with some spellcheckers. It works for me.

    P.S. I don’t seem to understand why think that calling you what you are is name calling(I guess it to be expected).

  • gahazzah
  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    Well, I have no interest in showing restraint toward first-class jerks who come to this site in bad faith, and take advantage of our resources to lash out at our party.

    I’m surprised that someone like you, who does some work within the party, would take so lightly attacks from people who wish to tear down in spite what you help put together.

  • randy streu

    As a libertarian registered Republican, you even managed to piss me off. Abrasive is not the same as being a leader.

    Guys like me and several others I know are actively trying to get libertarian support for Conservative Republicans. Problem is, they come to places like RedState to vent the frustrations they have, and they get shot down for not already being on board.

    The Republican party has more than its share of douchebags, and getting libertarian-minded people to vote for somebody like, for example, Crist in Florida in a general election is difficult enough without people jumping down their throats with epithets and ad hominem in the place where reasoned argument should be.

    And then when the dust settles, folks sit back and seethe and wonder why the libertarians just decided to put their fingers in the air and vote third party anyway.

  • gahazzah

    But I’m willing to listen to reason. My problem here is simple, I’m a purist (Textualist?) and not a pragmatist regarding the US Constitution. I am not a politician and have little patience for apologists. I know that’s not how the system works — but before you chastise me or insult me again (all of which would get me banned if I did it to you) let me explain my stance with two quotes I consider to be appropriate considering the recent Rasmussen poll –

    ?Somebody who agrees with you 80% of the time is an 80% friend not a 20% enemy.? — Ronald Reagan.

    “Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice; moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue” — Barry Goldwater.

    I’m not here to attack you, I’m here trying to understand you (conservatives). You can disagree with me all you want, I can respect that and I’ll take what you say seriously and try to understand. I’m just not sure you’re willing to do the same thing and perhaps we can start again.

    Hello, I’m new here and I didn’t mean to offend you. I’ve just got a lot of questions.

  • gahazzah

    I cannot even explain my local GOP it’s in that much disarray. For some context it’s my local Assemblyman who just jumped the shark with his sex talk and ethics violations.

    Now to respond fully.

    1) I didn’t respond to you because I had nothing to add as I essentially agreed with you. If you follow the chain of responses you will see that I did not jump in to defend the guy who got “gacked”, he jumped in to defend me.

    2) We’re basically in agreement here and I’m mostly on the side of the Civil War timeline. I understand incrementalism, to a point. My issue here is one of reality as for me to believe in incrementalism I first have to see some, any, progress towards that goal. Show me a tax cut here, a program cut there and we’ll talk. Show me a POTUS who says “I’ve abandoned free-market principles to save the free-market system…” & a GOP that passes Medicare Part D while ignoring the border and I have a tough time swallowing the incrementalism pill.

    3) Read my posts again. I did not demand an apology from Neil based on his insults. I pointed out the insults as I am reminded every time I post to “Be respectful, or be banned” and I find it interesting that if I had gone after Neil the way he went after me I’d likely be banned myself. That’s fine it’s not my site, I simply do not like hypocrisy. Further, I continued my point in each post and never demanded an apology.

    4) Likely a perception problem on my part. Perhaps I read too much into some of his posts, I am defensive about some things having been told to bugger off by GOP’ers for not being “Conservative” enough going back several elections. Arnold is a real sticking point on this one for me as by not supporting him the local GOP told me I wasn’t welcome in the party as I wasn’t being conservative. Go figure.

    5) Fair enough, see #4. 2 points though. 1) The GOP didn’t even put up a stink during the gerrymandering and I subscribe to the idea that voting “No” is not enough, you have to point out the problems and make them known. If something is going to pass regardless of how you vote in the minority party (in any state like Ca or Maryland) it is imperative that the minority party highlight the issues — much like many in the GOP are doing now with health care. 2) Yes, CA was a laughing stock but the GOP here was not (especially behind the ‘Orange Curtain’) and now it has become one due to the CAGOP supporting Arnold and trying to raise our taxes. I was a McClintock supporter so this, again, is an issue that annoys me.

    Finally — I use the dope issue because it is valid on many fronts. It is valid from a criminal perspective (associated with the costs of policing and incarceration), a tax perspective (associated with taxing the product should it be legal), a moral perspective (associated with medicinal usage) and a State’s Rights perspective not to mention the border issues. I don’t smoke the stuff and don’t care about it one way or another. If it’s put on the ballot to legalize it in CA and the measure fails so be it, I just don’t want the Feds to be involved in what is largely an unconstitutional role.

    I don’t think you can seriously expect somebody to look at fiscal issues and the reduction of government when in states like CA we spend so much of our money fighting the war on drugs while all but ignoring government largess and corruption. Again, see my above point on incrementalism.

    I also bring up the dope issue not because I care about dope but because conservatives care about it so much — just like gay marriage. I know likely we disagree on this issue but please understand my point. If the GOP wants my support it would do well to focus on the fiscal issues where we agree and not the social issues that divide us.

    Please do not mistake me here. I am not asking the GOP to not fight those fights also, that wouldn’t be with keeping to their beliefs. My point is simply that I need something to rally behind beyond those social issues. If the GOP would spend even a fraction of as much time extolling the virtues of small government as espoused by Ron Paul (bad example?) as they do with the thoughts of Carrie Prejean we could play nice and while I might still be 20% your enemy (dope, gays, whatever) I’m still 80% your friend because almost all government issues are fiscal issues.

    As for your rattlesnake analogy — I have snakes as pets, they don’t scare me. ;)