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FRONT PAGE CONTRIBUTOR

On Diaries and Recommendations

At RedState, the user community is a big part of why we’re here. Our goal is to bring people together and push the Activist button, so when our most active readers have complaints, we pay attention, because if this site isn’t able to bring together potential activists, we’re not going to accomplish our mission.

Some, however, have gotten the impression that because there hasn’t been action on a certain complaint, that we aren’t listening. It’s not true. Here, now, I will explain why action on the Recommended Diaries list hasn’t happened, and why it seems like things are different now.

We have, in fact, had two separate issues with the Recommended Diaries list. When RedState 3 first launched, the algorithm was not implemented correctly. I’d given it a read-through and it looked right, but it just wasn’t.

I fixed that by accident when, in the never ending quest to be rid of 500 errors due to site overload, I rewrote the backend implementations of the major sidebar elements. In doing that I wrote my own version of the Recommended Diaries algorithm. My version was right, though, implemented directly from Clayton Wagar’s notes from the RedState 1 and RedState 2 recommended diaries systems. Its behavior exposed how wrong the old one was by comparison.

If I recall, when the switch happened, there was much rejoicing. The thing was working again.

But now, though, there is more discontent in our user base. Things again are not the same as they were in the old days, pre-primary. The widely-held assumption is that the software is at fault, but in my best analysis of the situation, the difference is not in the software, but in how the software is being used.

Before the primary, and the beginning of waves of gang recommendations (first the Romney supporters, then the Huckabee supporters, and later the Thompson supporters), it was the rare diary in RS 2 that would get fifteen or twenty recommendations. To get that was a rare and special accomplishment.

Before the primary, people in the old days didn’t recommend an average diary as an expression of agreement. Agreement was expressed in the comments. Average quality diaries were expected.

Now though, we have groups of people who collude to recommend each other’s works. The Romney people proved the concept, and the Thompson people showed that total Recommended Diaries domination was possible, so now it’s going on all the time. We also have people who hit the Recommend This button when they think a diarist has a point.

We also simply have a lot more readers, commenters, and diarists.

As a result, all these factors combine to change how the Recommended Diaries list works, even though the software is the same. Here’s how:

Because there are more diarists producing more diaries, it is harder for a single diary to get attention. Even though we’ve greatly increased the size of the Member Diaries sidebar box, it’s still a problem. However Recommended Diaries are as easy to get attention for as ever, so while recommendations for non-Recommended List diaries are being diluted, recommendations for diaries already on the list are still concentrated!

This means that a diary on the list will pick up recommendations over a long window, during its entire stay on the list, while a diary that never got on the list only gets its brief stay on the Member Diaries list to pick up recommendations. The rich get richer, and a popular diary can get recommendations over four or five days, resulting in its staying up far beyond the expiration date of its original recommendations!

That effect is magnified by the hair trigger on the Recommend This button these days. People read the Recommended Diaries list and pile on their own recommendations for agreement. The rich get even richer.

And since we have even more users than we did before reading, writing, and recommending, the undiluted number of recommendations a Recommended List diary gets is far more than any diary could ever have gotten before the primaries.

So in conclusion, we can’t get back to where we were before. We can make the Recommended List more fluid, but that would mean breaking away from the old way of doing things, not moving toward it.

I do believe we can increase the visibility of good diaries in other ways, such as by encouraging good diary practices and discouraging low or no-effort diaries that belong in Open Threads. But I’m not sure the Recommended Diaries list will ever again be the same. Our community has changed.

COMMENTS

  • bs

    In other words, it’s another conservative conspiracy.

    Damned Republicans. Sheesh.

  • Neil_Stevens

    I turned big part into bit part. Oops!

  • Achance

    The Recent Comments tab hasn’t worked in ages. The Comments pane doesn’t refresh for hours at the time and doesn’t refresh at all unless I log out, exit IE, and come back in. These facts make it almost impossible to have the kinds of colloquies between posters that were once the hallmark of the site. About the only time you can really do much of that is in the middle of the night EST when there’s very little traffic.

    Just my $0.02.

  • Joelim

    How long did it take for a diary to drop off?

    It could be that this site needs another overhaul. I mean it is fine for a few people to blog, but if we are to retake this country, Certain Diaries must be saved and put up for all to access.

    I mean certain diaries which are recommended time after time must be popular, significant or partisan. They should be catagorized and set aside as archived popular, Significant, or partisan and removed from the current Recommended list.

    We can access them as needed to make a point in future diaries or what not.

    Maybe I am in the wrong here.

  • Putter

    if there was some way that we could exchange e-mail addresses with other members without posting them in open view. There are some members here that share my home state and/or occupation. I think we could produce fewer/better diaries if we could use other members as proofreaders, BS detectors and for OMG warnings. We have all posted some garbage or deleted something that might have been food for serious thought. These connections would also help us mobilize folks for certain efforts.

    This would require folks to opt in or out. It would also require some measurement of trust. About the only way to quickly measure that trust would be longevity on the site. Either that or some moderated “room” where folks could connect by mutual agreement without the whole world knowing.

  • Neil_Stevens
  • mom2oneson

    nt

  • Wubbies_World

    A chat room with PM functionality would be awesome!

  • aceintx

    Limit the time a diary can remain on the Recommend list 24 hours no matter ho many times it’s recommended?

    I’m not sure how that would work because I’m not a programmer but mayb put a date and time stamp that is attached when the diary hit’s the top 10 Recommended diaries and have it fall off the list 24 to 48 hours later.

    Maybe add more spots to the recommend list…maybe show 20 instead of ten.

    For Recommenders, I’ve started going back and unrecommending diaries I’ve recommended a week ago…we need to be more proactive in that as well because we help ourselves by doing this.

  • Neil_Stevens
  • Stinger808

    One issue I’ve seen noted is that people don’t want to do long, “essay” diaries, because they’ll get buried beneath all the “hey, check out this link” type of posts.

    Perhaps there needs to be a way to for Redstate to sort and display these different types of post in different ways?

    For instance, give the diarist a “diary–essay” and a “diary–short form” option. When the diarist hits the “essay” button, they’re given more panes to write a lengthier post, and a preview button (sidenote: or am I just not seeing the preview option for diary entries as against those for comments?)

    The essays can then be displayed in a separate column/field/box on the page(as is done with Redhot), or perhaps even with different formatting, while short posts are displayed elsewhere.

    This could reduce the “burial” effect and make diarists more inclined to put in the effort to do more in-depth posts that take time, research, and sometimes expertise.

  • E_Pluribus_Unum

    I have not decided what I think of those ideas, but they are intriguing.

  • Neil_Stevens

    The quick links diaries are supposed to be Open Thread posts instead.

    I hope we can address them without displacing what diaries were supposed to be.

  • reldim

    You guys keep telling people to put stuff in Open Threads, but honestly, it seems like there are very few open threads ever started. Given the amount of cycling on the front page now (a good thing), it also doesn’t take long for the open threads that do pop up to disappear.

    Perhaps, if you really want people to use the Open Thread for “quickies” there should be a permanently tacked Open Thread that can reside somewhere noticeable and accessible (perhaps a way to keep a daily open thread at the top of the member diaries sidebar for the entire day).

    My second recommendation would be for the moderators to actually start doing something about the “drive-by” diaries. I would say – DELETE THEM. Right now it seems the only consequence of posting a three line diary with a link is you get a stern comment from someone lecturing about how the diary should be in a (non-existent) open thread. The post, however, stays up, stays in the member diary list, and continues to crowd out actual diaries of substance. Do these things ever get deleted? Do the people who are most prone to these types of posts ever have their accounts terminated (I don’t think they should)? Are there any consequences? If there are no consequences you can’t expect things to ever change. We all try to be civil and polite and considerate, but we can’t base a community entirely on the willingness of mostly anonymous individuals to police themselves.

    Generally RedState is great – I’ve been around for years and I’m not really complaining about the setup (though since the launch of 3.0 I have found that I haven’t had time to get back into the site the way I was under the old platform – a function of lacking the time to learn the tricks and such rather than of lacking interest). I don’t really have a problem with the “drive-by” posters, or the way the recommended list works, or any of that. But if you behind-the-scenes bigwigs are going to highlight something and label it a “problem,” and “issue,” or a “concern” then it’s not unfair for readers to expect something to be done about them.

  • azizhp

    Neil,

    Just a thought – why not have the recommendation itself expire after a set period (ideally, 36 – 48 hours). That way for a diary to persist on the front page it would need to continue to draw active recommends. If you set a cron or something to review the rec list every hour, and then for each diary on the list iterate over every rec and examine the timestamp of the individual rec (not the diary!), and then if time > threshold toggle that rec off.

    users could still make an effort and return to teh diary to re-rec it if they chose. Or you could prevent that by adding a field “rec expire?”.

    Just a thought. You also might want to factor in an automatic expiration date for rec diaries too as someone else suggested. The two mechanisms for “freshness” could work independently.

  • IJB

    Explain. (Curious.)

  • E_Pluribus_Unum

    I want to respond on at least 2 fronts. I’ll do the second in a second comment, so as to not make this overly long.

    First point — I really was told by multiple insiders that the site management had decided on a new algorithm, one that rewarded a greater number of Recs by having the weight of a Rec evaporate less quickly – leaving the Rec List as one might say ‘the best of the best’, where rotation would be alot slower. And that management was entrenched on this matter in spite of some disagreement from insiders.

    I wrote my diary under that assumption, so that the tone had a ‘you guys are not HEARING us’ slant. Sorry about that, that’s on me.

    I don’t know what to tell you on how Contributors got misinformed so badly, or perhaps I just really, badly misinterpreted what I heard. I know the whole RS Galaxy of Stars is rarely if ever in a single room. But at least 6 or 7 Contributors Rec’d it (not necessarily indicating agreement, but at least empathy) and at least 1 Contributor (Painter) expressed the same frustrations.

    So I don’t know, maybe Erick needs to get the troops straightened out on this. Just sayin’.

  • E_Pluribus_Unum

    Second, from programmer to programmer, just a thought. 97% of the time in troubleshooting, the problem tends to be the old ID-ten-T problem, or between the keyboard or the floor, stupid user tricks, etc. But those 3% – we have checked the code 36 times, it’s perfect, the user is just doing it wrong. Until we look, that 37th time, and see that doggoned ++i instead of i++, that messes everything up without seeming to.

    Here’s the Rec-List behavior that I observed with my own diary of yesterday. There was only one diary under 48 hrs old, that from user ‘Bill’, in 9th or 10th place. As my diary attained 10 Recs, it displaced a 3-day old diary that had 10 Recs. This happened elsewhere, bumping off the 4th-placer (4 days old) only when it got the exact same number of Recs.

    I realize (or believe) that each individual Recommend is weighted based on the time of that individual Rec, not the age of the diary. It would seem reasonable that Recs from the Editors might carry slightly more individual weight. But these variables don’t seem to outweigh what appears definite to me.

    These days, you can get 7 Recs for your diary, and in spite of the fact that the 10th-place one has only 10 Recs but is 4 days old, it won’t get on the List.

    On the other hand, it seemed in RS 2 that say a REALLY well-received diary with 50 Recs would end up at the top. But by the time 48 hours had passed, it would be supplanted by a fresher diary with maybe 20 Recs. It was extremely rare to have something at the top longer than 60 hours. Now this is just me throwing numbers out there that may not be on the money, but that’s how I recall it.

    It’s as if now it’s very, very slow to age the Recs.

    So what I’m suggesting, programmer to programmer — take that 37th look at the code, run some simulations if that’s possible off-line, unit test, module test, run on paper by hand-calc what you think should happen and see if the code actually duplicates it. You know, all the trouble-shooting tricks to turn up the most devious little errors.

    Because I swear to you, as a math junkie and as a user very jealous of his diaries, it’s hard not to conclude from outside observation, that the Recommends are aging very, very abnormally slowly.

  • Vladimir

    It goes without saying, Neil, that none of this is to be taken as criticism. Personally, I wish you had time to post & comment with greater frequency. Your efforts to improve RedState are sincerely appreciated.

  • StephC

    When there’s a lot of traffic, if the php coding isn’t quite right, tables get opened and don’t close properly which overworks the database.

    I can live with the recommended diaries easier than I can live with the errors.

  • dskinner11

    I know nothing about running a website and the only way I have ever done anything is by using your HTML tips, but it seems that would at least minimize the problem somewhat.

    Also, is it not possible to have a different algorithm for the diaries that are in the list already that would require a higher standard to stay on the list? The standard for the member diaries would be lower thus making it easier to get on the recommended list but harder to stay on.

    If it is possible I think a combination of those three things sovles the problems as much as you are going to be able to.

    I am a regular reader and used to be a semi-regular commentor and diarist, but the problems discussed above kind of made it less rewarding to post a diary (an hour spent preparing it and 3 comments hardly seems worth it when before it may have generated 20).

  • Oz

    then people might post in them.

    My suggestion.

    A daily open thread where people can toss all that junk (hey I read this at blah blah blah) ….

  • mbecker908

    .

  • Elizabeth

    A possible way to overcome the change in user behavior might be to weight the recommendations by the length of time the recommender has been a member of RedState. That way, those who have been around longest and who hopefully know how to properly use the recommendation list will have the most voice into which diaries get onto the list. Newbies, who are least likely to behave well, will have the least influence.

  • mom2oneson

    A chat room where people could send a private message to another person in chat. They could share IM or email like that.

  • Finrod

    Perhaps make the multiplier be the logarithm of the length of time the recommender has been on Redstate. That way long-timers would get a multiplier but not an overly dominant one.

  • itrytobenice

    does the fix involve concrete shoes?

    And as for the rich getting richer…I suppose that’s what we should expect as were just a bunch of &^%$ Republicans. :)

  • E_Pluribus_Unum

    wow that was a bad typo.

  • dskinner11

    Another solution is to let recommendations fade in significance. In other words, each day after a recommendation is made, it carries less weight than the day before. That way older diaries will move off faster if they are no longer significant.

  • itrytobenice

    Something isn’t acting right.

    Even my FDT is a John Wayne Stud diary was off the list in 48 hours, even though it had a jillion recs. Which was really uncommon in RS2.

    And we really, really, really appreciate all you do to keep this site working. We’re all just a bunch of junkies that are having trouble keeping our RS fix pure enough to do the job. :)

  • Neil_Stevens
  • E_Pluribus_Unum
  • speciallist

    5

  • David_Hinz

    I have found the same thing when using IE. No problem at all when using Fire Fox. Also, sometimes F-5 instead of simply hitting refresh seems to help sometimes when using IE

  • Neil_Stevens
  • itrytobenice

    but what about moi? I’ve been very nice, you know.

    And not to pick on you, but you’ll make me a very happy woman if you’ll tell me that the new site will be released next week. Please? Pretty please with sugar on it?

    …:assuming frowning Neil:…

    A couple of months? Six? Any estimate at all?

  • SteveLA

    Bill Gates and the “Monkey boy” don’t need your eyeballs, get Fire Fox.

  • itrytobenice

    But thanks anyway.

  • rstreu

    as Neil alluded to, is the explosion of diaries. Sadly, there are many would-be diarists who don’t follow the basic guidelines set forth in bs’s excellent post, and those diaries, because they don’t take long to write, tend to be posted in large numbers very quickly. Rather like a particularly bad virus. These mediocre-to-bad diaries then push the good ones off before anyone notices them.

    This tolerance of mediocrity also makes itself known in something else that Neil mentioned: the tendency to reco something for silly reasons. We’re republicans, guys. We reward excellence in the real world; why should the blogosphere be otherwise?

    One a positive note: I know it’s been said, but I would just like to express my gratitude to Neil and the others for the more user-friendly interface — y’know, for dummy bloggers (like yours truly) who don’t know html as a second language.

  • ocleverone

    that it has got to be a daunting task to figure out algorithmically, which ones end up on the recommended list. Seriously as a newb around here, you don’t know how amazing it is coming to this site and reading so many well thought out writings that don’t disintigrate into bigoted swipes.

    I appreciate the writings here and I find them informative and useful. (And I thank all of the Directors and especially the Blam-man Moe for keeping this site as intellectual as it is.)

    As far as getting recommendations, I don’t expect them. One, I am realtively new here and two, my writings are nowhere on the calibre of some of y’all. But I do find it cathartic to write here and if anyone enjoys it, even better.

  • E_Pluribus_Unum

    Welcome aboard, Neil!

  • kyle8

    rewarded more time on the front page for dairies from people who have been on the site for a while.

    This would stop us from being flooded by a bunch of newbies who don’t know or care how to post a proper diary pushing regulars off of the front page.

  • gamecock

    not recommend behavior. We had a war over it, remember. Yes, there have been some variations in how the reccos have behaved, but they have ALWAYS been different in the ways complained of, due to the change to 3.0.

    So don’t try and put the blame on recommender “behavior”. The problem has been ongoing.

    Even diaries that don’t get an inordinate number of reccos stay up longer than before.

    Its the software. You can’t fix it. I don’t like to see friends accused of causing a problem that is not due to them. This kind of thing was what enraged me back when we switched after I, I alone begged Redstate NOT to switch to 3.0 after I was one of the 8 people that got to try it out for months

    Your accusation would only apply to SPECIFIC diaries hat gets a large number of reccos, not to the functioning of the overall system, and THAT is what is the problem, the

    overall system.

    As for me, this whole controversy came out of the blue, as I have been pleased with the functioning, AS COMPARED TO HOW IT WAS SOON AFTER THE SWITCH AND DURING THE 500 ERA.

    I understand the limits to what you can do to fix this. Why not just admit that?

    Instead of putting the blame on users.

    I also want to say that i think you do a great job in all but

    Customer relations.

    You guys need to hire Gamecock for that!

    smile

    don’t want to argue
    this is my statement

    And ftr, I NEVER SUTOMATICALLY RECCO ANYONE’S DIARIES based on any group.

    I only recco based on merit and request same as to mine.

    I also only recco columns that are substantive. The kind that advance conservatism, not tutorials, cute videos or blogs like this on internal affairs.

    They all have their place, but in my opinion, the top right hand corner of the site should be about columns that can convert people to conservatism and the gop.

    I don’t like to have these non-advocacy blogs in the top ten.

    God bless you Neil.

    Now, DeVine will get back to substance and endure EPU’s blog taking up space till 2011.

    smile epu

  • patriotspulse

    Being a newbie myself to Red State I found this interesting, but maybe for selfish reasons since I have never received a comment or recommendation in my very short time here.

  • scottbomb

    We appreciate your hard work, Neil. That goes for all the other geeks working behind the scenes. I believe I speak for many when I now dare to ask:

    1. What’s up with the 500 error? Is it server overload? Do we need to take up a collection for Eagle to buy a new server? All we need is a big political story, a mention on Rush’s show (happening more often, by the way) or another link on Drudge to bring this site to it’s KNEES.

    2. May I please have a cookie? You know, that little .txt file that on my computer that tells redstate.com who I am so I don’t have to log in every single day (or multiple times!) from the same PC? I’m a Rush 24/7 member and his site recognizes me at work AND at home and I only have to log in about once every two weeks. My Yahoo! never makes me log in. I imagine this would also take a load off your server.

  • bs

    is when the server craps out. That doesn’t happen that often (believe it or not). I stay logged in for days at a time, across browser restarts, reboots, etc. If you look at your browser cookies, you’ll find a bunch stored by Redstate – at least 8 or 10…not sure what they do, but one of them must store identity info.

  • Neil_Stevens
  • gensec

    a popular diary can get recommendations over four or five days, resulting in its staying up far beyond the expiration date of its original recommendations!

    What if after the diary was a day or two old, all its recommendations started rapidly losing weight? Something like:

    if (AgeInHours > 36) RecPoints /= (AgeInHours/24);

    I don’t have a strong opinion how soon to start devaluing recs and by how much, but the basic idea is for most Recommended Diaries to rotate off the list within a couple of days, but allow very popular diaries to last longer.

    I have no idea how difficult your software makes it to slip in a line like that. If it’s easier to put in a hard limit like 72 hours, that would still be an improvement over the current situation, though less desirable.

    This could be used either with or instead of weighting the recommendations themselves by age. My preference is to treat all recommendations equally, and let the diary’s age rotate it off the list. I don’t see why getting 4 recommendations yesterday and 6 today should be considered better than getting 5 recs on each day. But that’s a tangent.