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FRONT PAGE CONTRIBUTOR

This is how privacy dies: to thunderous applause

Back when Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith came out, it was popular to compare the villains with the Bush administration. But now I see Google fitting better as Senator Amidala’s opponents, when now the firm’s supporters cheer as Eric Schmidt refuses even to consider the option of not storing your personal data. Says Fortune at CNN:

In one of the sharper exchanges of the afternoon, a questioner challenged Schmidt with the fact that Google is collecting a staggering amount of information about who we are, what we’re thinking, and even where we are. “All this information that you have about us: where does it go? Who has access to that?” (Google servers and Google employees, under careful rules, Schmidt said.) “Does that scare everyone in this room?” The questioner asked, to applause. “Would you prefer someone else?” Schmidt shot back – to laughter and even greater applause. “Is there a government that you would prefer to be in charge of this?” It was quite the effective moment that showed we still trust government less than we trust Google. But should we trust either?

It doesn’t even cross their minds that we might ask Google not to build the database to begin with, because it’s a basic law of databases that they can always be put to another purpose.

It’s a long forgotten incident, but this concept of re-purposing databases was illustrated during the Clinton administration. As part of the small intrusions into your private life that President Clinton ran on, attacking “deadbeat dads” was something that he and Attorney General Janet Reno spoke of often. The result was a national database of “deadbeat dads,” but before the end of the Clinton administration, the database was already to be reused to track those who owe money for other reasons. Said Wired in 1999:

The measure would require the Department of Health and Human Services to use a national list of current public and private-sector employees to track people suspected of cheating the government out of money.

You got it: That was the “deadbeat dad” database, which once built had no idea it was meant to be used only for “deadbeat dads,” and so became a tool for more and more expansive intrusion. And guess what? The same is true of any Google database. What is to stop Google, a business partner, or the government from using it later? Good will? Internal corporate safeguards? The request to “Don’t be evil?” What is to stop the government from passing a law which grants access to the database?

The only true way to respect us and our privacy is for Google not to build that database to begin with. But we know why they do it anyway: the love of money. Also from Fortune:

“Advertising that is more targeted is worth more money. … Eventually, the revenue in the digital world should be higher.”

Not just higher than it is now, but higher than it was in the analog world, Schmidt said. For newspapers, magazines and broadcasters who are watching revenues drop in their legacy businesses, this sounds like wishful thinking. But the Google chief maintained that because digital advertising should allow marketers to tailor their message to the audience, it will be more effective and brands will spend more money. He didn’t say how much of that money Google would pocket, and how much would be left for content creators.

Google expects to make too much money off of breaching your privacy for the firm to stop doing it. All the high minded talk goes away as soon as it comes time to keep growing as a business. It’s time all Americans stopped pretending that “Don’t be evil” actually means anything, and started looking closely at every single element of policy the firm promotes, starting with Net Neutrality, examining for ways that the corporation will gain at our expense.

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COMMENTS

  • gwalt

    I bought the shiny new toy—the Motorola Android known as the Google phone. It is pretty cool and has lots of features, but it does have it’s kinks—getting more each day.

    That said Moe, this post makes me regret the purchase.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    1. I’m not Moe :-)

    2. There’s an outside chance I’ll buy an Android-based phone myself. I’ll just delete all the Google-based services like their mail and documents.

  • http://jeffemanuel.net Jeff Emanuel

    What’s this Revenge of the Sith you’re talking about here? I’m not aware of the existence of any such film.

  • MetaCosm

    Great (sorta related) video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dv4j4bguYYk

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    The ending made it a cult classic.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    They take their time winding it up, but the punchline at about 2:20 is the same I’m making.

  • dave_in_atl

    Microsoft, Yahoo, and pretty much any other free online service that is ad supported is gonna gather as much information about you as they want…. its how they make money.

  • eastbaylarry

    They may be the best at this, but ANY company that hosts a website, (including RedState), can learn all sorts of surprising things about their users. It’s called ‘System Logs” and contains things like:
    1, The user IP Address which can be fairly easily be traced back to a physical location
    2. Every page visited, which can be used to learn alot about attitudes and interests.
    3. Any ad links followed, which shows what other interests the user has.
    4. Exact time/date of every ‘click’

    and so on.
    Focusing on Google is a mistake because there are millions of these types of databases out there.

  • Aaron Gardner
  • dave_in_atl

    It’s that they DO….well at least their advertisers do, and thats all that really matters as you have to view the ads to view the site.

    All the magical cookies, and system log files, they trace you across the internet.

  • USNJIMRET

    the search engine or any of their other products. At least not that I am aware of, underneath things—who knows.
    I did download and try their Chrome Browser for a day or two some time back.
    When pop-ups noting that by using the program meant I gave license to Google to retain for their own purposes ‘stuff’ about my use of their product, I stopped and cleaned it off my machine.
    Have changed machines since then, and the old one crashed so hard I couldn’t even do a minimal transfer of data, so even the minor risk of tag-a-long fragments of Chrome aren’t on my current toy.
    As for what might or might not be on the Blackberry…..again, who knows what is in the background??

    BTW: Does anyone know if using the “Private Browsing” function in IE or Firefox helps to reduce the amount of info that is available for these data vacuums to gather?

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    No absolute standards of morality?

  • dave_in_atl

    To view this page right here you are giving up personal information to the following…

    redstate
    google
    sphere.com
    blogads.com
    twimg.com
    getclicky.com
    digg.com
    tribalfusion.com

  • dave_in_atl

    thats actually the point of firefox’s private browsing…. although it still does not clear out flash cookies (so make sure you install flashblock also)

    but PS: Yahoo, and Microsoft, and every banner you ever see are tracking you just like google. So you should probably install adblock also.

  • eastbaylarry

    but as a former system administrtor I KNOW what’s in those log files.
    All I’m saying is, singling out Google is like saying that one particular car is solely responsible for smog.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    The point, which you are comprehensively missing, is that not everyone shamelessly builds databases the way Google does.

    I can tell you that I’ve had access to how the RS logging works, and I don’t see Eagle building databases of every visitor to our site.

  • dave_in_atl

    but i bet tribalfusion keeps logs, same for digg, and blogads.

    My point was not that RedState is mining data, just that your data is being mined no matter what site you are using…. assuming its ad supported.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    Do you have a cite for MS and Yahoo having attempting to gather health records, just like Google?

  • jackhammer

    I live in Germany, where they are quite paranoid about anyone having any meaningful amount of information on you. I also know they are actively pushing google on the limits of what they are collecting, and how long they can hold it. I also know that as an American I was a little taken aback at how much information the government holds on you. The Europeans put a little too much trust in the government for my liking, but at least in Germany they have some damn restrictive privacy laws which seem to bar branches of the government from sharing that information about people. The courts here also seem to do a real good job of barring any intrusions on privacy….they seem to have had some period 70 years ago where public records and databases of the time (ledgers and census data) were misused….

    I know a lot on this site are very wary of the civil liberties folks, and sometimes a bit too willing to carry water for the patriot act (which is an amalgam of political correctness and bureaucracy), but intrusion on privacy is something the government should definitely be restricting, and restricted from doing….and I don’t mean privacy is abortion…

    Niel is right on this, and not limited to the net neutrality thing. Some form of civil liberties protection is the business of at least the judicial branch, and possibly to a smaller extent the legislative….

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    Again, this isn’t about logging.

    This is about the building and searching of databases like never before, which is what Google frankly excels at.

  • dave_in_atl

    just recently there was an article about MS wining that google had an unfair advantage because they were able to mine so much data because of their sheer size.

    MS couldn’t keep up because they didn’t have the same level of traffic to mine, therefore could not target their ads as well..

    Seems like they are concerned about mining data to me.

    Also it was many years ago, but there was a time MS wanted to use their passport single login for things like medical records… look it up.

  • Aaron Gardner

    Google has been buying up corporations that do more than just collect internet information. Are you really this naive?

    Google owns a company that specializes in DNA and is creating databases for that information. Do you really think that is on the same scale as RedState?

    Does RedState have a fleet of vehicles going from neighborhood to neighborhood taking pictures of private property and posting it online?

    How about economic information about you? And I am not just talking about a credit card used to pay for the RS Gathering registration either.

    Seriously, I don’t think you have the slightest grasp on reality with regard to Google and what they are doing.

  • dave_in_atl

    When i said log above I actually meant giant databases. so there corrected.

  • dave_in_atl

    are you honestly nieve enough to think other online companies are not doing the same exact thing?

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    Just like when you made your radical pacifist comment about how we lost in Iraq because of a few thousand dead, you didn’t really meant to denigrate their sacrifices.

    We see through you, Dave.

  • eastbaylarry

    Where does this involve morality? This, (the log files), is a builtin function of web server software, meant to help sysadmins locate and correct problems and isolate problem users.
    Collecting this information is automatic and has no moral basis. Webserver software is neither moral nor immoral.

    What the human operators of these websites DO with the information can be moral or immoral, but that’s not the point.

    My message is this: The information is out there, it’s widespread/universal. To get upset with one company about this data is to overlook the forest because of a tree.

  • dave_in_atl

    And I don’t say this because I am guessing, I say this because I know.

    I know what kind of databases we keep at the company I work for and we are just a small online retailer. I also know some of the databases some of our suppliers keep.

  • dave_in_atl

    Keep on pretending that amazon is not gathering your buying habbits, and doubleclick is not tracking your browsing across the internet, and that Microsoft and Yahoo do not keep personal information on you.

  • Aaron Gardner

    And last I checked, those logs didn’t have anything to do with the offline types of data that Google is collecting and placing online in it’s own database.

    You aren’t thinking broadly enough. You are limiting yourself to the 1 and 0′s and ignoring the actual hard activities outside of the digital realm.

    It saddens me when I see tech geeks get so wrapped up in the digital that they can’t see the tangible losses accruing all around them.

  • 29Victor

    to China, or a Saudi prince or a UAE billionaire?

  • Aaron Gardner

    You can’t link to any other company that has the breadth and width that Google does.

  • dave_in_atl

    Your right… because google is quite possibly the largest internet company to ever exist. How dare I not come up with a bigger example!!!! I can still come up with big examples though….

    But at the same time I can point to doubleclick (although google now owns it), microsoft, amazon, yahoo, alexa, etc.

  • Aaron Gardner

    My message is this: The information is out there, it?s widespread/universal. To get upset with one company about this data is to overlook the forest because of a tree.

    You have no clue what Google is collecting or else you wouldn’t have even made this comment.

  • dave_in_atl

    When citbank gets sold to the saudi’s (they probably have more intresting personal information on most people than google)

    Oh wait… that already happened.

  • itrytobenice

    or do they have other ways (other than driving around taking pictures I mean)?

  • eastbaylarry

    but all that it takes is matching a field somewhere and merging/linking tables.

    Why is everybody so upset by this? We are all here voluntarily and if somebody didn’t know that information was being collected, they haven’t been paying attention.

    So Google has more data linked in more ways. So what? They aren’t crawling up thru your internet connection and stealing it. It’s all already out there, so why make a big deal out of a cross-reference function? WTF?

  • dave_in_atl

    Facebook, Twitter, and MySpace

  • Aaron Gardner

    I am not sure why I am wasting my time trying to explain to you what you refuse to accept, but here goes. One last time.

    Google is involved with more offline activities that will consolidate information that is really private. Not just your buying habits and your ip address. If you don’t understand this, then trying to communicate with you further is pointless.

  • E Pluribus Unum

    It’s just a shame they never made any prequels to Star Wars.

  • dave_in_atl

    Like I said above… google is collecting information on you right now just by viewing this page.

    RedState after all uses google analytics.

  • dave_in_atl

    I just don’t think you understand that all these other companies ARE DOING THE EXACT SAME THING.

  • momac

    It was fun to read, first arguments on technical merits, then just the whole thing flipping to ‘not ok just because everybody does it.’ But the point was, Google was chosen to be singled out as THE privacy killer, so that’s of course where the conversation centered.

    I don’t think it’s even constructive to bother pointing out that logs ARE databases. It’s in a request-indexed text format, but it’s a database nonetheless, and stores a ton of information, such as where you came from, where your access is through, what you read here, where you are geographically, what time you were here, and much more. Then there’s the actual profile database with your email, name, website, chat identities, bio info, zip code, etc. Include that with what you actually comment on and write, and it’s a solid amount of behavioral information.

    Depending on what the service is, and what they use the information for, and I guess how much you decide to trust them, EVERY site you use has these concerns, and instead of chalking it all up to ‘Google stole your privacy’ it would help to maybe educate people on what they can do to mitigate or control who gets their information. It’s all voluntary on some level, and we can either be responsible for ourselves knowingly, or abdicate our responsibility and worry about bogeymen.

  • Aaron Gardner

    Let me break this down as simply as I can for you.

    Google wants to take data that has never been in the digital realm, and has had a generally acknowledge confidentiality to it, and digitizing it and consolidating it.

    They are not merely linking existing databases of digital information. Furthermore, the information that they are gobbling up has implications towards the loss of individual privacy in matters of Health and general living.

    On top of all of that, Google has a very cozy relationship with the current WH occupant.

    All of these things mixed together will result in a loss of privacy and eventually a loss of liberty.

  • Kyle-MI

    I believe Jonah Goldberg has made the point that supporting capitalism is not the same as supporting big business. Big business often works hand in hand with big government, and worse, they often influence big government to create regulations that inhibit growth of their smaller competition.

    What is to keep Google from strategically leaking damning information on a congressional or senatorial candidate, or on a critic of their preferred candidate?

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    You have no evidence that MS is building the kind of database Google is.

  • Aaron Gardner

    It shouldn’t be that hard if you have proof to back up your assertions.

  • dave_in_atl

    BINGO… You hit the nail right on the head with your last paragraph.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    You people are completely incapable of making an argument. You just pretend anyone who disagrees with you is ignorant.

    But don’t let me stop you from goose-stepping in line with Eric Schmidt and his buddy in the Oval Office.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens
  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    You are spreading outright falsehoods through your repeated assertion that the data we’re talking about is from httpd logs.

    And combined with your radical pacifist ranting before, I’ve had it with you.

    Hit the contact form if you feel you’ve been wronged.

  • eastbaylarry

    I have a fairly large ‘clue’ what’s being collected and cross-referenced by Google and _MANY_ other online entities, but so what?

    Personally, I know databases and I know how to cross-reference them and, perhaps, that is why I feel like this is business-as-usual and nothing to get excited about. If you _personally_ have only recently become aware of this, I guess that could be the reason for your reaction.

    Personally, I don’t care if Google collects and cross-references every know fact about me. In fact, I _ASSUME_ that this level of data integration is only a matter of time; it WILL happen.

    My _ONLY_ concern would be that of identity theft, amd Google is NOT going to allow that to happen because it would be the instant END of Google.
    Ironically, the concern of identity theft argues for a more complete form of information to be stored on me, so that some fool with JUST my SSN cannot steal my identity.

    Again: Data collect happens and excellerates every day. Get over it.

  • momac

    I think it is important to point out that they choose to open our site browsing information both to Google (without really noting it) and also the less trustworthy SiteMeter (has added ad-tracking cookies in the past).

    Then there’s valueclick.net (“Reaching more than 83 percent of all U.S. Internet users, ValueClick operates one of the largest performance-based display advertising, behavioral targeting and video networks.”), and getclicky.com, yet another web analytics service.

    Of all of these, I am probably least concerned about Google’s part. I think they’re less likely to have data stolen, less likely to be sold, and are under more public scrutiny than the others.

  • itrytobenice

    the damage they can do is limited?

    If so, I think consumer education may be our best weapon. Lord knows I don’t trust the gov to do anything about it.

    If Uncle Barack finds out what they have or what they can get, he’d probably confiscate it and give it to the DNC or ACORN.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    Do you perhaps have a commute across the Dumbarton, from the east bay to Mountain View, by chance?

  • Aaron Gardner

    Death is only a matter of time, feel free to speed up the process it you like.

  • momac

    Big Business has no real power over you, unless it is given by Big Gov’t though. So without government power to grant favors, business would be left to compete openly.

    But you’re right, in our corrupted system, they can lobby for, and receive, unfair advantages. So when Walmart or some big company supports a policy, it’s not like its because they love a free market. They like winning.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    Avoiding Google services will help.

    But contrary to the shilling by dave_in_atl and the ignorant protestations of eastbaylarry, Google’s data tracking only begins with their httpd logs. They buy data. They collect data from outside sources. They try to use government to get access to more data.

    Anyone who claims that it ends there either is an idiot, is ignorant, or has another agenda.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    Either Larry’s an idiot, is ignorant, or has another agenda here.

  • Aaron Gardner

    Answer that and you will understand why your argument is crap that is only tangentially related to the greater argument being made by Neil.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    Why do you mention Walmart and not, oh, Google? Could it be for the same reason you come running every time we expose Google at RedState?

    You people are something.

  • momac

    Unless we type something on a site that submits through Google (like a search, or emails), or unless they get a hold of a bunch of other records (do they actually have our health records?) then yes, most of their information in their databases would come from access logs.

    You didn’t really specify in the article what kind of information you were talking about, so I’m not sure what ‘outright falshoods’ you are referring to. Access logs are how you’d match up someone’s browsing behavior to what you think they might want to see. I think Google, with access to huge amounts of our aggregate data, is probably better at it than anyone.

    If you are not referring at all to browsing behavior information, you should make that clear in the article, and point out what you are referring to.

  • jackhammer

    kyle was specific in saying big business….and big business is in the business of full time lobbying, and that brings in the governemnt, to protect their established positions and ward off competiton. Big Business is the same as big labour….

    I would liek to float a general idea that would exempt all companies from any corporate taxation unless they do anything reembling lobbying or accept any government contracts.

    GE is big business, with full time lobbyists pushing green technology, nuclear technology and all forms of regulation to garner contracts and make it tougher for competiton….not to even mention their lobbying efforts for incomprehensibly long patent protection….

    Unions fight for minimums wage…not for love of man….but to make non union competiton more expensive to protect union jobs….with the force of government…

    And no one is against winning, but talking to the ref before and during the game to keep changing the rules in your favour probably won’t get many fans….

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens
  • eastbaylarry

    Are you saying that if Google doesn’t do this, then it won’t happen?
    Are you saying that you will refuse to use the cool new services they will (no doubt) develop? You never use Google Maps?

    Yes! Google can do MORE than any other company simple because they ARE big and have been in that business the longest. Does that make the effort bad? Illegal? Preventable?

    I am hoping that someday I will be able to access online and in digital format many of the great works of the past, (pre-digital age), because of the work Google is doing.

    Loss of privacy? How much do you THINK you have now?
    Loss of liberty? Perhaps, but if so, it won’t be because it was Google that did this work, it will be because people like us here at RedState were demonizing Google instead of focusing on the Progressive takeover of the country.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    Google’s core mission is to gather every bit of data in the universe and sift it for importance.

    It’s laughable that you expect us to pretend that Google’s data is limited to its own server logs, when they have countless spiders continually trolling the Internet, trolling the gmail servers, google documents, picasa, buzz, plus initiatives like their medical records drive and their subsidiaries like their DNA tracking firms.

  • Aaron Gardner
  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    You don’t realize that Eric Schmidt has actively participated in the Obama administration?

    Come on.

    Are you that ignorant or just shilling?

  • momac

    So I don’t know how you’re surprised people aren’t talking about what you think is important. Maybe actually get that stuff into the article if it’s so clear to you guys. Instead of bringing it up in comments without citation and then demanding citation from others.

    It is laughable how often you see someone say ‘cite it’ in here, as though the article itself is so laser-focused and clearly cited. Good grief. By far the thinnest skinned duo on RS. Everyone’s crazy, or naive, or stupid, or needs proof, except you guys. Got it.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    He has one mission when he comes to RS: stick up for Obama’s buddies at Google.

  • jackhammer

    seeing as the most salacious thing they sell at wal mart is condoms…I cannot imagine how wal mart could use any of the information gathered on me in any negative way other than maybe showing that I buy a couple too many fatty foods….

    Compare that to all the info that google has on someone..and perhaps taken out of context or within context…

    it is easy to avoid walmart, or it is easy to use cash and just fall into the postal code (others)…try that with google…try that with the net….that requires some serious work…library computers, internet cafe’s…actively staying off the grid…

    What I am surprised at, is there hasn’t been a serious thriller based on this since sandra bullocks the net more than 10 years ago….

    The sheer volume of info always seems like adequate protection from a feeling of paranoia for myself…but if someone wanted to target me specifically and go through my entire online collected history with them….damn that would be scary..not just where I visited, but also what routers were involved, establishing my pattern of where I travel and when….scary stuff….

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    I’m looking back at your posting history and I’m seeing trends:

    You bash Walmart at every opportunity.

    You bash the editors at every opportunity.

    But the bulk of yo ur posting is sticking up for Google.

    Only reason I’m not banning you this second is that it’s on a post criticizing me personally.

    But you’re on notice, sparky.

  • eastbaylarry

    I would if offered, but the only reason I have time to chat here is my line of expertise has been mainly outsourced overseas, (read China).

    And, no, I am not a FORMER employee of any silicon valley company either. I returned to the East Bay with it’s very high unemployment rate because where I had been living for the last ten years has an EXTREME unemployment rate.
    I worked for several small companies as database admin/system admin/etc, (the smaller the compny, the more ‘other duties as assigned’).

    I’m not trying to put anybody down here. I feel very comfortable with _MOST_ folks here at RedState and hope to contribute more over time. I frankly don’t understand the venom being directed at me for what I’ve commented here.

  • Achance

    And you have absolutely no assurance that Google isn’t sharing data with the government or with the cabal that props up Comrade Obama.

    When I was still working inside government, I just assumed that anything I did on the government network would wind up in the hands of the public employee unions and the newspaper that hated the administration most.

    Any business that allies itself with Democrats is NOT to be trusted by people who aren’t Democrats.

  • Aaron Gardner

    So you are saying you were totally unaware of Google’s activities but felt qualified, and compelled, to defend them from “by far the thinnest skinned dou on RS”?

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    But I’ll bite: Why don’t you elaborate on your last comment then, when you said you know all about the kinds of databases about people that are being developed at Google?

  • mcg

    But the repeated calls of those who disagree with you as idiotic, ignorant, or agenda-driven pretty much make you come across as a paranoiac. Now, just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean someone isn’t out to get you, but as a means of argumentation it’s pretty week.

  • mcg

    darn spellchecker.

  • eastbaylarry

    All I’m saying is this _TYPE_ of data _WILL_ be collected. Unaviodable.

    It’s a logical extension of computers, the internet, and the increasing digital connectivity that we have seen for the last 30 years.

    So it’s Google doing it. Would you prefer some other company? If so, which?
    Or do you imagine that this process can be stopped/outlawed/banned and still continue to have the computers/internet/connectivity expand?

  • eastbaylarry

    but I think I’ll just outlive you, thanks.

  • Aaron Gardner

    I mean, the knowledge is out there. It’s unavoidable. It is just a logical extension of warfare, weapons, and the increasing violence we have seen in the world for all of known history.

    /sarc

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    The whole argument I’m making, and in fact that Eric Schmidt himself is making, is that Google is gathering data like never before to allow unprecedented ad targetting.

    I then point out that the database can be used for other purposes.

    Again, you can’t be this dumb then to go and echo Schmidt’s own quote.

  • YankeeConservative

    In case you didnt notice, GOOGLE BOUGHT DOUBLECLICK – THEY OWN IT.

    You cant excuse the #1 offender just because “everyone else is doing it.” They are all wrong.

  • hickorystick

    but they sold us down the river on the health care debate. They jumped on board with the Obama’s Health Care Plan. They looked to let government pick up part or all of the cost of their low paid employees. I don’t mind big business looking out for their interest, but don’t think maintaining a free-market is in their interest. Eliminating competition is.

  • fpete13527

    …..even though it may elicit volumes of rationalizations as some of demonstrated here. The arguments proposed in your premise are DEAD ON ACCURATE and the opposition is completely in tuned to the same mantra/pitch/arguments for progressivism, as Aaron pointed out.

    I will gladly sacrifice some digital capabilities in order to keep a handle on the combined calculated personal data bases that are purposefully, compiled in the manner in which Google and the WH are planning. Actually, a sacrifice probably wouldn’t even be needed.

    Don?t stop these posts Neil. As a matter of fact, post one about this subject every other day or so. Thanks.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    Are you accusing me of mental illness, mcg?

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens
  • Darin_H

    I still use Yahoo mail for all the stuff I have to give an email address for, but I’d love to have another email than Gmail. Any suggestions?

  • eastbaylarry

    they can get their hands, yes and of course.

    And I never said that it would be _limited_ to server logs, mearly that it would be _merged_ with server logs.

    Sure they’re going to use everything they have a legal right to plus anything they can buy cheaply. And of course the have spiders trolling anywhere those spiders can reach. This explains why they are so successful as a search engine.

    Include DNA data? So? You see a harm in that? What do you see as a possible abuse?

    But, again, do you hope to stop it?

  • Common_Cents

    Anonymity & digital footprint management?

    I saw an interview w/ Schmidt saying Google “anonymizes” data after 18mos, but critics replied that it can be easily reconstituted.

  • Common_Cents

    I still use aol mail and having some problems with it using mozilla thunderbird email program.

  • eastbaylarry

    so it will probably be needed instead of lesser forms of ID in the future, but so what?

    Nobody is going to steal my DNA and it will be awhile before it can be ‘duplicated’ to be used as ID theft, so what’s to ‘secure’?

  • mcg

    I’d have to get to know you in person to accuse you of mental illness. And I do my best work with a beer in hand.

  • eastbaylarry

    Any time you find some U238 leaking out of computer let me know.

  • Aaron Gardner

    It requires an IQ above room temperature.

  • eastbaylarry

    But unless you know of a way to _REMOVE_ your data from these databases, it will get merged.

    I’m not happy about the level of data out there, but what to do? The digital genie is out of the bottle and ‘banning’ it would just mean that it happens behind the scenes instead of up front so we can comment on it.

    Ther may be better battles for us to fight than this issue.

  • eastbaylarry

    but your analogy is invalid.

    Even if you _meant_ the proliferation of nulcear _information_ instead of material, it has nothing to do with expanding databases.

    Insults diminish your cred.

  • Aaron Gardner

    I am worried about your ability to form an argument. You have consistently used faulty logic to defend Google.

    Your underlying logic is the problem. Figure that out and then we can have a reasonable debate. Until then, you don’t deserve anything more than to be mocked.

  • http://www.scragged.com petrarch

    It’s a fact that Google stores an astronomical amount of data on virtually all of us. If you really want to, you can stay pretty much out of their databases – basically, but not using the Internet.

    It’s also a fact that Redstate stores (on an astronomically smaller level) data which would be particularly attractive to a tyrannical leftist government – basically, an easy way to identify a whole lotta activist conservatives for some sort of punitive action.

    Is that Redstate’s goal? Of course not – it’s just inherent to what Redstate is.

    Is that Google’s goal? Who knows? But assuming it’s not for the sake of argument, assuming that their only goal is purely to make money and that they don’t care a hoot about the politics – they’d still be doing the exact same thing because such a massive database is, in fact, incredibly valuable for advertising.

    If as a society we decided we didn’t like it, well, “There ought to be a law!” Except, isn’t that something as conservatives that we don’t like, namely, government meddling in the free market?

    Besides, exactly what sort of law could be passed, and how would it be enforced? If you said, say, that personal data could only be stored for 30 days, not only would that cause all manner of complications and unforseen consequences, but to enforce it would require government minions LOOKING at everybody’s data. We’d probably wind up worse off than we were before.

    You’re right that databases, by their very nature, are an invitation to abuse. So is a great deal of technology. I’ve read historical arguments in Victorian newspapers opposed to the coming of the railroads, because they allowed an easy means for criminals to quickly escape the local community where they committed their crimes. That’s a 100% true argument – but the railroads brought way more benefits than they did problems.

    Google is not the problem. The databases are not the problem. A corrupt government which acknowledges no limits on their power – now, THAT’s the problem. If George Washington were President, this database would be a nonissue and no concern.

    If we can get a government populated by honest men who respect America’s founding principles, this won’t be a problem. If we can’t… this still won’t be a problem, because the crooks and tyrants will do exactly as they please no matter what we or anyone else thinks.

  • echoechoecho

    All google needs to do is get a government contract that says what they’re doing is all part of the greater War On Terror. It worked for AT&T.

    http://www.wired.com/politics/onlinerights/news/2007/05/kleininterview

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    Still smarts that Obama sided against you on that, doesn’t it?

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    Once your original point is proven conclusively to be wrong, you demand we stop it.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    DNA is not unique and therefore is not the ultimate ID.

  • Flagstaff

    such as gmail and Yahoo and Hotmail, etc., the usual source of a mailbox is from your ISP, I believe. Accessing that kind of mailbox via Outlook or Apple’s Mail program apparently results in your mail being automatically downloaded to your computer unless you override that feature.

    I use Hotmail because it’s what I started with and I’m too lazy to want to try something new. Also, I can use it wherever I am without doing anything special. But I don’t suppose it’s any more secure or privacy-respecting than gmail is. Hadn’t thought about it before reading this diary.

  • Michael Dugas

    that will show you who is getting sent info from the pages you are on and you can block it.

    https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/search?q=ghost&cat=all&advancedsearch=1&as=1&appid=1&lver=3.6&atype=0&pp=20&pid=5&sort=&lup=

  • Michael Dugas

    and cancels or refuses you coverage because of a predisposition to stupidity will you then understand? Just askin’.

  • Flagstaff

    I thought the piece was intended to point out the dangers of misuse of government databases. Maybe that was because I hadn’t seen the movie.

    I have to admit I didn’t realize this piece was directed at Google until I started to read the comments. That lead me to go back, where I read “started looking closely at every single element of policy the firm promotes.” So then I got it.

    I had missed that before because I happened to hear a discussion of the “perfect ID” idea between Bill O’Reilly and a guest. Their comments made me take notice–yes, an ID card incorporating DNA would be acceptable in America, even desirable.

    But the kicker was their agreement that we lost all chance at privacy when the internet came in. They are probably right.

    So, besides not using Google search, maps, and so on, what can I do to protect myself? The usual advice about privacy and security on my iMac has never made much sense to me. Using settings at the level that advice seems to point to ends up in a very difficult-to-use machine. Any suggestions about privacy and security settings, or other methods? What about cookies? Frequency of emptying the cache? Somebody mentioned “flashblock”? What is that?

  • Aaron Gardner
  • Lloyd Davis

    Google is shameless in their attempt to gather every shred of
    information they can. Everywhere you look they are talking about a
    new database. More information for them to have.

    I don’t use Google if I can help it.

    ……………………………………………………………………………………………

    The mistake a lot of politicians make is in forgetting they’ve been appointed and thinking they’ve been anointed.
    - Claude Pepper

    You can lead a man to Congress, but you can’t make him think.
    - Milton Berle

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    Thank you, thank you, thank you.

  • asleep06

    Precisely.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    Basically what you really want to do is make it hard to correlate the things you do.

  • eastbaylarry

    I guess that doesn’t apply to you and Aaron, right?

    I’m NOT unaware of the political issues involved in data mining.
    I AM aware of the dangers of making it too easy for the government to “crack down” on groups they have arbitrarily have decided are dangerous.

    What I have said here repeatedly today is:
    1. It _WILL_ happen whether it’s Google or somebody else.
    2. You _CAN’T_ stop it and continue to increase computers/internet/conectivity.
    3. There are more _PRESSING_ things for us to worry about.

  • Aaron Gardner
  • eastbaylarry

    Part of the progressive takeover? Perhaps.
    Sharing data with the governemnt? No doubt.

    But here’s the thing: Anything that is now or will ever be digitized will be leaked/lost/stolen/accessed illegally eventually. Don’t stand in front of a tsunami and yell, “That’s not allowed here!” You WILL get wet.

    Why aren’t we focused on stopping healthcare instead of exchanging insults over Googles’ databases?

  • eastbaylarry

    Part of the progressive takeover? Perhaps.
    Sharing data with the governemnt? No doubt.

    But here’s the thing: Anything that is now or will ever be digitized will be leaked/lost/stolen/accessed illegally eventually. Don’t stand in front of a tsunami and yell, “That’s not allowed here!” You WILL get wet.

    Why aren’t we focused on stopping healthcare instead of exchanging insults over Googles’ databases?

  • Aaron Gardner

    We’d like it if you could too. Apparently you only have ability to focus on one issue at once.

  • eastbaylarry

    I am NOT defending Google.

    All I have said is: This is INEVITABLE.
    What type/class of information, exactly, is it that YOU think will NOT be digitized and cross-referenced eventually?

    Note I said WILL NOT, and not SHOULD NOT.

    We can talk about the ‘shoulds’ all day, but it will happen if it can be done. I suspect in our lifetimes our random thoughts while strolling in the mall will be captured, translated and cross-referenced. Will that be “good”? No. Can it be stopped? No.

  • eastbaylarry

    If you mean that you thought my original point was they use server logs, you should read a little deeper than the first paragraph.

    Look at it this way:
    Suppose the evil Google manages to devolp a comprehensive DNA database of every human on the planet, including mine.
    Then assume that the evil ones in government access that database and read my DNA.
    What do YOU think they can do with that?

  • eastbaylarry

    If you mean that you thought my original point was they use server logs, you should read a little deeper than the first paragraph.

    Look at it this way:
    Suppose the evil Google manages to devolp a comprehensive DNA database of every human on the planet, including mine.
    Then assume that the evil ones in government access that database and read my DNA.
    What do YOU think they can do with that?

  • eastbaylarry

    An anology, but even if DNA is not 100% unique, when combined with other, lesser characteristics, it IS more accurate than say JUST a fingerprint and _WAY_ more accurate than the pin you use at the ATM.

    My point was, Why are you so agitated about this? And again, Do you believe it can be stopped/banned?

    Would you feel better if this were being done by a conservative-run company?

  • eastbaylarry

    An anology, but even if DNA is not 100% unique, when combined with other, lesser characteristics, it IS more accurate than say JUST a fingerprint and _WAY_ more accurate than the pin you use at the ATM.

    My point was, Why are you so agitated about this? And again, Do you believe it can be stopped/banned?

    Would you feel better if this were being done by a conservative-run company?

  • eastbaylarry

    Why would they need a database for that? It would just be part of a required physical.

  • eastbaylarry

    Can you say the same?

  • eastbaylarry

    You covered this much better than I have elsewhere in these comments.

    Point: Digitization Happens
    Point: Cross-references are a valuable asset to the business the does it
    Point: Abuse of data is done by corrupt PEOPLE
    Point: Making it illegal would be pointless, corrupt people will still do it.

  • http://phxg.wordpress.com/ phxg
  • eastbaylarry

    I have about 6 and select the one to use by how I feel about a site.

    ps: Redstate has my ‘real’ email address.

  • archer52

    That was when I knew that the Internet, your credit cards, ATM and anything that uses computers were tracking us. I think it was a guy named Johnson from Sun Systems who said this back in the nineties. When he did I felt a little naked, then realized there was nothing I could do except build a wood cabin on top of a hill somewhere. And even then Google map will have an overhead photo of my house.

    The trouble starts when you find yourself being attacked with that information and that will be coming as Google and the government get closer and closer. Google wants to be the first in line when that moment comes. Like the big Pharma company said last year, “Either you are at the table or you are on the table.”

    These are scary times.

  • Aaron Gardner
  • Aaron Gardner

    Your logic is an offense to all sentient beings. Maybe you are willing to concede to the inevitability of these things happening, but as a conservative I will, as Buckley put it, “Stand athwart history yelling stop”.

    You said

    Don?t stand in front of a tsunami and yell, ?That?s not allowed here!? You WILL get wet.

    That was the point that I knew you didn’t know jack about conservatism.

    Just so we are clear.

    Hinz rule.

  • jackhammer

    I never understood why Wal Mart didn’t push for cross state insurance selling because I could easily have seen them as one of the lowest overhead, widest risk pool distributors of insurance coverage out there…..

    I mean if anyone has the infrastructure to sell a wide variety of HSA’s and insurance policies in virtually all 50 states….it is WalMart.

  • hickorystick

    They could also maintain clinics in their warehouse space, to cut the cost down on the trip to the doctor for the little things. They are perfectly positioned to dominate a good portion of the industry.

  • http://whereswalden.com/ Jeff Walden

    NPAPI has been extended slightly to enable plugins to detect when private browsing is enabled and to receive notifications when its status changes. I think recent Flash versions include the necessary work to “do the right thing” (which in edge cases might be surprisingly tricky to do, but I digress), so PB should affect Flash behavior now. If that’s not the case, I’m guessing I’ve heard that functionality being mentioned sometime as in beta, but I really do believe my memory is correct that up-to-date Flash handles PB correctly.

    All that said, Flashblock is useful on its own merits (arguably necessary!), so still well worth using, if not for PB-safety purposes.