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Bad Polling Discredits Good Polling

“Lies, damn lies, and statistics.” “You can use a poll to prove anything.” We all hear the lines like these, which reflect the popular view of statistical analysis and opinion polling. Nobody believes it. It’s all made up, says the conventional wisdom, or at least doctored to a degree that it can’t be trusted.

It’s not actually so bad at all, but it’s hard to make that case when people like the Daily Beast’s John Avlon undermine the field with examples like these.

Avlon discredits polling when he writes an article such as the one above. He’s ready, willing, and able to attempt an attack on the political right, but reluctant to give key facts about the poll. What was the methodology? What was the sampling pool? What are the definitions of the terms used in the poll?

That last question is an important one but was not even addressed by Avlon. Normally it doesn’t matter at this site, because we mostly deal in horserace election polling, where there are no undefined terms, but just people. But a poll which discusses a concept like “the Antichrist” without defining that term is useless to an extreme.

“The Antichrist” is of course referencing certain Christian views on the end of the world. Yes, I said certain. One thing a person learns when delving into these matters is that not everyone agrees. Under the umbrella of Christian one sees a broad range of views of the end of the world. You’ve got postmillennials, premillennials, amillennials, and probably a few variations of each that you have to have studied to differentiate. These differences matter, too. Not all Christians believe that the end of the world will be structured as the Left Behind novels describe.

To each of these groups, the concept of Barack Obama as “the Antichrist” will have a different meaning, or even no meaning at all. And of course, if you ask a follower of a different or no religion, the question has even less meaning. An Anti-Christ is a concept that only makes sense in opposition to a belief in a Christ that already came.

But no, Avlon and Harris sweep all this under the rug as they ask a question off the cuff in a way that makes no sense at all, and whose results are entirely meaningless.

Scientific polling only makes sense if the questions themselves are clear and unambiguous. If the question itself adds uncertainty to the poll, to the point where different people are in their minds answering different questions, then there’s no reasonable way to interpret the results.

After seeing this question, I didn’t even look at the rest. I think they have to be just as bad. Oh wait, here’s another one: did Obama do “many of the things Hitler did?” Well, Hitler discouraged smoking, built roads, and stepped up diplomacy with Iran. Once again, a poorly defined question leads to a nonsense result.

Bad polls like this need to be drug out into the street and shot, so that the good polls can live in peace and harmony.

Crossposted from Unlikely Voter

COMMENTS

  • http://davesnotepad.blogspot.com/ Dave

    …and we are still worried about polls?

    Damn, no wonder we have lost our America.

    -Dave

  • avgjo

    don’t get mad, get even.

    we’re working on destroying this bill and the democrat party. We have to consider every detail to the letter.

    Please check the mopeyness at the door.

    Thanks!

  • http://davesnotepad.blogspot.com/ Dave

    …or at anytime thereafter. Your gonna need it, and far more than you know.

    Believe me.

    -Dave

  • avgjo

    It’s 2013, there buddy.

    Just get outta the way and let us handle it.

    I saw your tough words for some moron that posted a socialist diary. Where’s that grit manifested in action?

    Why don’t you get off your hand-wringing, self-pitying mopey soapbox and get involved? If this doesn’t get repealed, it’ll be because of people like you, who would rather sit around and whine about the world instead of changing it.

    I wonder, are you so pessimistic because you know deep down you will acquiesce and take it laying down?

  • http://davesnotepad.blogspot.com/ Dave

    You cannot get the votes to repeal CommieCare in time to matter.

    The only way you could would be for enough dem senators (not up for election next November) recalled prior to next November, and that isn’t going to happen.

    In order to override a presidential veto, you have to have 67 senate votes, regardless of how many votes you have in the House.

    You will not get enough senate votes through the ballot box next November, even if every democrat up for election is defeated by a republican.

    By November of 2012, it won’t matter what happens, as CommieCare will be so entrenched, you will never be able to get rid of it.

    This is a communist coup, and the communists are winning.

    -Dave

  • http://www.laborunionreport.comandhttp://www.laborunionreport.blogspot.com LaborUnionReport

    As most of the “benefits” won’t kick in until after 2012, it is possible that the populace will be so po’d that BHO will be gone and then a repeal would be possible.

    It will be a long shot…but it is possible.

  • romans12n2

    quick and simple response to the writer’s take on the various polls is…
    1 those with college degrees are less likely to be “duped”…. Well duh ! they’ve had at least 4 yrs. of indoctrination by the radicals running our universities !
    2 whatever various percentages of gop believes whichever poll in question about Obama being Socialist, muslim, Oneworld, siding with enemy… For whichever belief in question there is ample evidence and video of Obama and/or his associates available online that the “less easily duped” have not seen or would never admit to seeing , because they have been indoctrinated !
    Anyone who thinks thr right is lying about Obamacare being a “starterhome” for single payer , need only look to youtube for the answer. Anyone who doubts Obama is a proponent of “Global govt. ” , need only look to youtube. The dots are not hard to connect. Who’s the biggest donor and most frequent visitor to the Oval Office? Andy Stern SEIU. What does Andy say about Global Govt. ? Look for yourself. The evidence is , as the center for American Progress puts it, “RIGHT THERE!”

  • Kyle-MI

    Dave, you are not part of the solution. What does that make you, then?

    There is one sure way it will never be repealed and that is if we do nothing and not even try.

    What choice do we have. It is either repeal or the death of America.

  • scrapiron

    By all the polling data. I thought it was 57% against this bill and now a believe a gallup poll has it at 49% approval. I can’t believe that. How does it get to be popular after it passes, but no so before.

    I’ve been a conservative for all my voting life, first time I voted was for Reagan when he ran against Ford for the nomination. I can’t do much grassroots activism…..too busy working but, I do give $$$ to the candidates.

    I almost feel resigned that we are going to have to live with government run HC in some form. I can only hope that we get enough conservative (not RINO’s) in congress in 2010 and 12 to slow this thing down. The backs of my grandkids will break and the country will be in the red for a long time.

    Somebody needs to give me some “hope for change”, I can’t find it in a bottle of Johnny Walker.

  • eburke

    you see nothing but doooooom in your future.

    Glad you weren’t there to ‘buck up’ the troops at Bastogne.

  • blooch

    “We’ve restored America’s image in the world. It’s been proven by polls.”

    I’d love to see those poll questions.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    When the Fellowship was faced with the Balrog, Gandalf didn’t say “Oh well, we lost.” He said “Fly, you fools!”

  • http://beaglescout.wordpress.com Beaglescout

    What do you expect: Reasoned discourse? He is a race and party pimp and a hater.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens
  • http://moelane.com/ Moe Lane

    Check back in two weeks. Or one.

  • frankmac

    Of course they release some flawed poll supposedly showing that Americans are now happy that ObamaCare passed. What a joke. They’re in the tank for Obama just like the NY Times, WaPo, and the rest of the liberal MSM. Everybody really knows that at least 3/4 of America is against this monstrosity. Come November, Osama, er, Obama, will have to deal with a GOP-controlled House.

  • avgjo

    you’re wrong on so many points, it’s not even funny.

    first, as some of the other guys pointed out, this doesn’t kick in til 14.

    today, we are finding out that the bill doesn’t even (in 14) do the stuff it promised.

    If the communists win, it’ll be because of people like you.

    I never argued that the republicans could do it in 11. I argue that they could obstruct a whole lot, and then after their victory in 12, they could and should get rid of this.

    I second eburke’s comment about Bastogne.

    My word. Why don’t you keep your surrender monkey nonsense to yourself.

  • http://beaglescout.wordpress.com Beaglescout

    That was my point. Avlon’s analysis was ridiculous and only deserves ridicule back.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    I think it helps if we understand why this poll was different from others that we tend to cite and trust.

  • weatherford

    I realize (and completely back) the importance of keeping things simple in attacking HCR. The notion of a determination to repeal was the right way to go, and we know that because his Oneness is already bleating to the faithful.
    The repeal theme is central to holding the electorate and keeping their energy for “change” that “they can believe in.”

    But my question is this: Is there any point in co-opting Obamaspeech in his lies about curtailing the insurance industry, when in fact that industry is the chief beneficiary of HCR?

    I am still a hard-over proponent of the repeal line-of-attck. That should never be abandoned, compromised, or diluted. And there should be a penalty paid by anyone who breaks ranks.

    I dont want to stray off point, especially on what will continue to resonate through November and beyond. However, I would like to hear comments on linking Obama’s HCR with its supporters in the health insurance business and big Pharma.

    Maybe a bad idea. Maybe a good idea. Maybe an exercise in capillaroscopy.

  • JSobieski

    It will be extremely difficult if not impossible for insurance companies to make profits in the long term under Obamacare.

    Adding customers does not solve this problem.

    If you are forced to lose money on each policy, you can’t make up for that loss on the basis of volume.

  • weatherford

    I dont think this can be explained as just a result of the enactment of HCR. There is something more than a perception of Ubama as a forcefull leader.

    The socialists picked the right line in attacking insurance companies. Is that taking hold?

  • JSobieski

    Most of the “benefits” will not kick in by then.

    It won’t be easy, but hey, defending freedom never is

  • weatherford

    Ann Coulter too earlier.

    Maybe my next question is this: where have they been as donors?

    One or two million dropped on the right operation could have brought this turkey down.

    I am not a proponent of any of this, one way or another,

    I am really just looking for some answer because I do think O is making some nickles in posturing as the champion of the little man in fighting an industry that pretty much everyone has found unyielding and, frankly, at times, uncrupulous.

  • weatherford

    I never said I could spell.

  • JSobieski

    Coulter doesn’t believe the line either, at least not in the long term

  • Menlo

    Thanks to the subsidies, they will get taxpayer dollars. And if they raise their rates, they’ll exceed more people’s incomes and get more taxpayer money.

    Unless I’m missing something (and it’s very possible), I don’t see what is to stop insurance companies from simply raising rates ad infinitum knowing that the government will subsidize their profits.

  • JSobieski

    Their capital reserve requirements are going up
    Their taxes are going up
    Their claims payment requirements are going up
    Health care inflation is going up regardless of Obamacare
    Flexibility in terms of what must be offered is going down
    The ability of individuals to game the system (not sign up for insurance until seriously sick) goes up

    The profit margin for health insurance is a paltry 3% in the pre-Obama framework.

    The purpose of Obamacare is to discredit capitalism by making it impossible for private insurance companies to function. They want to point to failing insurance companies and say, we need public option and single payer.

  • izoneguy

    And everyone loses except for the overlords. The overlords must be expelled before they get their hands around our wallets (and necks).
    They tried it with “Global Warming” and that is failing – so no wonder that Obama had to ram ObamaCare down our throats……

    It can be stopped – but only if we throw out the overlord enablers.

  • jdw4america

    NO NO NO

    I’ve said this before – the left is afraid. They were all so busy going orgasmic over their “victory” that they began to believe their own baloney. Now that the afterglow is over and the only people still eager to risk a political std is the MSM, they are terrified. They have to manufacture threats, violence and “polls.”

    Whatever they do, keep calm, look ‘em in the eye and speak the truth.

    We can filibuster anything they want to sneak thru the back door and drag it into the light. We can fight them with the truth until 1013

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    There’s a followup post here and at Unlikelyvoter that explain just how bad the poll was.

  • Menlo

    Insurance companies will be getting a lot more money too from the taxpayers. I believe few will “game the system” or will even be able to since they cannot purchase policies retroactively.

    I believe the chances are greater than not that the system will end up functioning to cause as much pain as possible without causing enough chaos or catastrophe to prompt any drastic and sudden changes.

    The end of “private insurance” is what many non-politicians on the left are hoping for, but I think they are going to be very disappointed over the next 10-20 years. At best, they can keep insurance companies as puppet agencies of the government.

    That’s just my prediction.

  • JSobieski

    It allows someone to wait until after they are sick before they purchase insurance.

    Insurance companies are going to be squeezed and squeezed until their investors flee and the insurance companies go out of business. Many will leave the health care market.

    Any increases in premiums will cause people to game the system as the differential between a premium and the penalty increases. This impact will snowball, causing more increases and more gaming.

    The government will then come in to “save” the day, and health insurance will go the way of the dinosours.

  • JSobieski

    nt

  • Menlo

    I think most people are likely to get insurance just because “it’s the law” and it’s something almost no one who can afford it wants to be without. I don’t think so many people want to “game the system.”

    Generally, either a person is sick for too short a time to get any insurance, they require a costly diagnoses that would not easily be obtained without insurance; or they are needing treatment that cannot wait. I suspect the percentage of people who opted out of insurance they could have afforded and then anticipate a costly procedure for a long enough time to apply for insurance is insignificant. I suspect it will remain so.

    I also believe that the vast majority of uninsured don’t have unusually costly medical needs.

    The only thing the government is likely to do in the unlikely event insurance companies are in trouble is to give them a bailout like they did with the banks, especially if you don’t have a record liberal Democrat majority.

  • JSobieski

    Obamacare is a system designed to be gamed, at the expense of the insurance companies and the people who try to play things straight up.

    The more expensive premiums become, the more people will game the system, and so on and so forth.

    The law allows the payment of a fine in lieu of insurance—that fine is quite small compared to the cost of premiums.

    Even before Obama care, many people set up “businesses” to capture all sorts of taax benefits. Obamacare just creates a new playing field for gaming. In some ways it does you credit that you don’t think that way—but rest assured that millions do.

  • izoneguy

    over to other types of insurance. The competition for your car & homeowners insurance will increase. You may have to go to the state for your health insurance but heck my car insurance is a bargain!
    (Of course until Obama wants to have the state run that also)

    Anyone care for a game of tiddlewinks?

  • eburke

    Because of the insurance boards that this bill sets up, health insurance companies cannot raise their rates higher than these ‘boards’ will allow (much like utility commissions).

    That leaves the insurance company with the option of implementing the same utilization techniques as Medicare is currently using, i.e limited payments or denial of payments for certain procedures (hmmmm…that wouldn’t sound like ‘rationing’ now, would it?) or go out of business.

    The socialist demogogues will either berate the ‘greedy’ insurance companies for denying care and use that as the pretext to be the insurer of last resort or they will squeeze their premiums until the go out of business and the government becomes the insurer of last resort.

    Either way…say hello to the backdoor implementation of single-payer or universal health care.

  • mschmitt

    Now there shall only be health assurance companies with guaranteed insolvency — and anyone who doesn’t game that fact by paying the relatively low penalties to the government in exchange for auto-magic health care coverage when they actually do get sick — is a freaking sucker.

  • Menlo

    I didn’t say no one would. I said too few would to matter. Do they not in Massachusetts?

    More importantly, I’m looking at it from a practical perspective. I see four possibilities.

    1.) A person has a short-term illness that passes before he or she has time to apply for insurance.

    2.) A person notices something wrong and wants to seek treatment. If this is something new, he or she could get insurance under the current system.

    3.) A person is involved in an accident or experiences a sudden injury and needs immediate treatment. There is no time to get insurance.

    4.) A person needs costly treatment for a long-term condition that is not immediately life-threatening. However, this person would most likely already be insured as the initial diagnosis would not have otherwise been easy to get.

    Perhaps there is some medical issue and statistic that I’m missing here. If not, the opportunities for “gaming” the insurance company are very limited based on the definition of “getting sick.” Certainly there are ways to game the other taxpayers; those who don’t pay the penalty will suffer no more consequence than a denial of income tax refunds. Since premiums exceeding a certain percentage of one’s income will be footed by the taxpayer, I see bigger government debt being the biggest problem.

    Regardless, should the system prove unworkable, I believe we’ll see the big insurance companies getting treated like the big banks.

  • JSobieski

    http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2010/04/04/short_term_customers_boosting_health_costs/?page=full

    The article is about Romneycare in Mass, but if you want to bet a large sum of money in favor of your position, I would be more than happy to take on that bet.

  • JSobieski

    that’s a lot of gamers

  • JSobieski

    http://www.boston.com/business/healthcare/articles/2010/04/06/health_insurers_sue_to_raise_rates/

    No Virginia, you can’t make up for an incremental loss by selling a high volume of policies. Santa Clause is real, but the Obamacare Unicorn is not.