Most of the framers of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights (and the states that ratified them) expected that the following principles would always apply:
The size of the congressional districts should remain relatively small. Instead, the average district size is approximately 700,000 and growing.
The number of federal Representatives should grow proportionately with the general population. Instead, Congress has fixed the total number of Representatives at 435 ever since 1913.
The Congressional districts should be equivalently sized across the nation pursuant to the one-person-one-vote principle. Instead, some House districts are currently nearly twice the size of others.
Melancton Smith, New York Ratifying Convention 20–21 June 1788 selling points
We may approach a great way towards perfection by increasing the representation and limiting the powers of Congress. The great interests and liberties of the people could only be secured by the State Governments. If the new government was only confined to great national objects, it would be less exceptionable; but it extended to every thing dear to human nature. That this was the case could be proved without any long chain of reasoning:–for that power which had both the purse and the sword, had the government of the whole country, and might extend its powers to any and to every object. By the true doctrine of representation, this principle was established–that the representative must be chosen by the free will of the majority of his constituents: It therefore followed that the representative should be chosen from small districts. Would they be possessed of the requisite information to make happy the great number of souls that were spread over this extensive country?–There was another objection to the clause: If great affairs of government were trusted to a few men, they would be more liable to corruption. Corruption was unfashionable amongst us, but Americans were like other men; and tho’ they had hitherto displayed great virtues, still they were men; and therefore such steps should be taken as to prevent the possibility of corruption. We were now in that stage of society, in which we could deliberate with freedom;–how long it might continue, God only knew! Twenty years hence, perhaps, these maxims might become unfashionable; we already hear in all parts of the country, gentlemen ridiculing that spirit of patriotism and love of liberty, which carried us through all our difficulties in times of danger.–When patriotism was already nearly hooted out of society, ought we not to take some precautions against the progress of corruption?
Complaint For Declaratory and Injunctive Relief On the grounds that the United States government’s current practice of apportioning representatives according to 2 U.S.C. § 2a is unconstitutional, a lawsuit was filed in district court on September 17, 2009.
The five plaintiffs in the case each represent the five most under-represented states in the House of Representatives. The plaintiffs are:
John Tyler Clemons
Jessica Wagner
Krystal Brunner
Lisa Schea
Frank Mylar
Mr. Clemons is a registered voter in the state of Mississippi; Ms. Wagner is a registered voter in the state of Montana; Ms. Brunner is a registered voter in the state of South Dakota; Ms. Schea is a registered voter in the state of Delaware; Mr. Mylar is a registered voter in the state of Utah.
Scott Scharpen has written about the root causes of ills in the US House, and here are some highlights from this article.
INCREASED competition – the principles of free markets tell us that when competition is present, we get increased quality at a lower cost. With a House of 1,761 members, the supply will increase by over 300% while the demand remains the same. The example of the New Hampshire state house (consisting of 400 members for a population of less than 1.5 million) shows that competition produces a much higher turnover rate (over 30%) each election cycle. In dramatic contrast, California’s embarrassing lack of competition (the state assembly has only 80 members for a population of over 36 million) has produced a 100% incumbent success rate for the past 4 election cycles, even though the state is being driven into bankruptcy. In effect, competition creates market-driven term limits when needed, rather than legislatively-forced term limits that are advocated by so many. With appropriate competition, long tenure will depend on strong performance rather than who holds the most power and money.
DECREASED cost of running for office – the average winning campaign for a U.S. House seat in 2008 was approximately $1.5 million. This enormous financial barrier to entry prevents ‘average’ citizens from entering national politics, and gives incumbents a great advantage. If the average district size were reduced by 75%, the cost to win a House seat would also be cut by 75%. Also, we would see special interest money playing a much smaller role in the outcome of elections.
Here is a thought experiment: consider how few people are required to get a major federal government program started. In a country of about three-hundred million residents, a US President only needs 283 people to get what he wants. Let’s take Obama’s health care initiative and break down the numbers. Any revenue generating program needs to originate in the House and get 218 votes - done Next, the Senate has got to have 60 votes to pass something out of the Senate - done. The House can accept with no changes what passed out of the Senate with 218 votes - not done yet. The President signs the bill received from the Congress - not done yet. Five Supreme Court Judges rule the new program is constitutional - not done yet. So a president needs 218 + 60 + 5 = 283 for mission accomplished.
There is a significant correlative relationship between smaller district sizes and increased freedom. Moreover, this is a causal relationship; that is, as the legislative districts become larger, the government becomes increasingly oligarchic and statist.
I support this effort, and wish that people would work to fix the statist problem our country faces with the elected officials in DC in this manner. I do not think that term limits and campaign finance reform address the core problem that arose in 1913 with creation of the Fed and the 16th and 17th amendments as well as no longer increasing the total number of congressional districts. I know the Congress we have has no interest in doing any more than having federal districts and territories get representatives instead of delegates. I do not support that at all.
Below I have a couple of charts to illustrate that the total number of congressional districts was increased every ten years from 1790 to 1910 (with a single exception). These increases were a direct result of the growth in total population as was intended by the framers of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
The second chart shows the different ways that state governments operate their state houses. You can see states like California, New York , and New Jersey have larger district sizes. States like New Hampshire, South Dakota, and North Dakota have smaller district sizes. Guess which states have increased freedom.

Cross-posted at The Minority Report

JadedByPolitics
Michael Becker
Ben Domenech
Erick Brockway
The big house
Beaglescout Sunday, January 24th at 11:09AM EST (link)I’m an advocate of sending a lot of representatives to the Big House. And doing this as well also doesn’t sound bad. I guess the problem that will preoccupy those who argue against the idea is that the Congressional chambers are not big enough to seat thousands of Representatives. How would that be handled? Would telepresence be part of the solution or would they have to build a gigantic theater in which to seat the Representatives?
“A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one.”
thanks beagle
pilgrim Sunday, January 24th at 11:14AM EST (link)How to handle the big house will certainly preoccupy many detractors. I think with all of the technological advances that have occurred since 1789 a solution can be found to address this.
Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all. Frederic Bastiat
Building new office building would at least be a real stimulus! and pil'
Mike gamecock DeVine Sunday, January 24th at 2:11PM EST (link)you convinced me with the argument that more reps dilutes the power of each.
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” - Andrew Jackson
Another thought inspiring diary pilgrim!! Recco'd!
nessa Sunday, January 24th at 11:50AM EST (link)I hadn’t given this much thought, I’m embarrassed to say. My initial impression is that you’re right, this would be more effective than term limits. A smaller constituency can keep a closer eye on a congress critter, the bit would be more securely between his teeth.
I found an article tracing the history of the size of the House here.
While the argument has been going on since the Constitutional Convention, it seems those who wanted to keep increasing the size wanted to do so in order to ensure adequate representation. Those who opposed it invariably did so because too many representatives would be too dis-organized and hard to operate. That sounds suspiciously weak to me. Madison discusses it in Federalist Papers #55-58, the founders spent a great deal of time arguing the size of the house, their greatest fear was that if it were too small it could easily be controlled by a small group of corrupt members. It seems to me we have reached that point.
“If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
Contributor to The Minority Report
teh twitter
thanks nessa
pilgrim Sunday, January 24th at 12:01PM EST (link)One of the interesting things I discovered doing the research is that one of the founders, Madison, I think, predicted that by 1840 the US House would have 400 members. He was saying it with pride, and not with concern. I do not think they would be very happy with the way things have changed from what they intended.
Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all. Frederic Bastiat
By my math that would mean
djemi Sunday, January 24th at 12:44PM EST (link)you would need appox 7000 Reps now.
1840 pop approx 17mill, 400 Reps, Approx 42,500 Residents per District
2010 pop approx 300mil, 42,500 Res per Dis, Approx 7000 Reps.
Now that would be alot of fun.
A more that three fold increase will do me fine.
“If I can’t shoot rabbits,then I can’t shoot fascist”
“With age, comes Wisdom, but only if you are paying Attention, son” my ‘Old Man’
RS Help files (h/t JLenardDetroit) Grassroots in Michigan
Moes Strategy
You make some excellent points, pilgrim. The Founding Fathers...
penguin2 Sunday, January 24th at 11:56AM EST (link)probably could not envision population growth to the numbers that we have today, if for no other reason that modern medicine of the 20th and now 21st century, allow for survival that would have been inconceivable to them.
Pil’ those words above, also describe how the Federal government taking over from the states, by imposing their will, have the power because they are increasing the number of people they have control over. Statism vs Federalism. The states are giving up their power and being consumed by their dependency on the Federal government, and in turn the people have less freedom. Anyway, that is just a side thought.
Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. - Benjamin Franklin
When Good stands up to Evil, Evil blinks. - Vassar Bushmills
Constitutional Knowledge found at: RedState University
Conservative Education: Suggested Reading List
thanks penguin nt
pilgrim Sunday, January 24th at 12:02PM EST (link)Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all. Frederic Bastiat
An interesting idea, with a few possible unintended consequences
reddog53 Sunday, January 24th at 12:37PM EST (link)I agree that having fewer people per representative might help accountability, but it also might fragment things to a point that absolutely nothing got done.
More representatives would necessarily mean more committees, etc. While we might wish that they would stay focused on the Constitution, Congress will have hearings about every problem and find a way to nationalize the issue.
It might also have the effect of making some representatives stay longer. Isn’t it easier to please a few people rather than a lot?
It might also make the issue of earmarks and pork barrel spending more prevalent instead of less….if you have to attract 800+ votes to an issue, how do you make sure they stay on ‘your team.’
If there are fewer voters per district, it would be easier for the Working Family Party, the Greens and many others to pick off a couple of seats here and there — presto! we look like Germany with constant coalition building and posturing. Not sure this is a good thing.
In spite of your dismissal about the size of the building and numbers of representatives, I would not be at all in favor of a video conference based setup…all representatives should be in the same place at the same time. No exceptions.
good points to consider
pilgrim Sunday, January 24th at 12:48PM EST (link)I am not dismissive of anything here. I wish you will consider US history, and ask yourself this questions.
Did the US begin to look like modern Germany between 1789 and 1913 when the US federal government made increases in the number of House seats every ten years?
Did the US House members have a tendency to stay longer during that time than now?
Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all. Frederic Bastiat
These are good questions
reddog53 Sunday, January 24th at 1:06PM EST (link)I think the incumbency rate in the House and Senate have always been relatively high, even in the 1800s. I do agree that we need to ensure that people don’t become too entrenched, and that’s why I also favor term limits.
I agree that we should examine the decisions made in 1913 and that era, because the Wilson/Roosevelt progressives were ascendant then. It’s always healthy to question aspects of the status quo and see what might be better.
Good points reddog...
nessa Sunday, January 24th at 1:04PM EST (link)Personally I would be fine with the realization of your first fear. After this past year I think I could be happy as a clam for about ten years of absolutely nothing getting done. With the proper changes the their rules I think the added numbers would help ensure that only the MOST IMPORTANT issues were addressed, the lesser stuff would just drop off the calendar from lack of concerned members.
We already have members of congress surpassing 50 years, this is going to make them stay longer? Lets wait another 50 years and see.
Earmarks, as well as salaries and pensions will have to be addressed. We can’t afford to pay the exorbitant salaries and pensions they currently earn. The cost of the earmarks of 7000 representatives is terrifying, simply eliminate the practice.
The WFP, ACORN, SEIU already own the democrats and their current majority, more, smaller districts will also allow for closer supervision of who is contributing, who is pulling the strings, IMO it can only get better. If everyone in the neighborhood wants to be represented by the WFP so be it.
“If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
Contributor to The Minority Report
teh twitter
Nothing getting done sounds like nirvana to me! - nt
Mike gamecock DeVine Sunday, January 24th at 2:12PM EST (link)Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” - Andrew Jackson
Nothing will get done?
scharpen Tuesday, January 26th at 3:33AM EST (link)You raise an important point an unintended consequence of increasing the size of the US House - will anything get done?
I have a FAQ on the Apportionment.US website (www.apportionment.us/FAQ.pdf). One of the questions reads:
Q: How will Congress get anything done if we add more people to the decision-making mix? Won’t we see more gridlock?
A: It’s a well-known fact that most of the business of the House is performed in sub-committees, where only small numbers of representatives meet to discuss specific legislation and policy. Anybody watching C-SPAN knows that it’s a rare moment when the entire House meets together, and even when it occurs, the speakers and topics are scripted beforehand. In fact, many representatives watch remotely from the comfort of their own office via TV monitors. In addition, representatives serve on multiple committees, and routinely send staffers to attend meetings given competing schedules and the sheer volume of work. Other reasonable outcomes from expanding the House include: a) more straight-forward legislation (toward the direction of state ballot initiatives and away from special-interest driven favoritism), b) longer deliberation for each piece of legislation (avoids rushing through a bad piece of legislation) and c) less overall legislation being produced.
Scott Scharpen
No. Way. As the size of the federal government increases...
rbdwiggins Sunday, January 24th at 1:09PM EST (link)Liberty is assailed. Period.
The answer does not include increasing the size of the federal government in any manner, shape or form, and that expressly includes increasing the number of members in the House of Representatives. That’s the beginning of the end for our Constitutional Republic and a precursor to a parliamentary system.
The answer lies before us: It’s the Assertion of State’s Rights under the Tenth Amendment.
“Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn’t so.” – Ronald Reagan
Another aspect I hadn't considered...
nessa Sunday, January 24th at 1:44PM EST (link)…but, right off the top of my head, isn’t the greater danger in the size of the federal gov’t the unseen and unknown bureaucrats? Elected representatives are at least supervised and can be defeated in their next election. The bureaucrats dig in for a guaranteed for life job, make their own rules and enforce the regulations as they see fit. That is the side of the federal government that should be reduced, greatly.
“If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
Contributor to The Minority Report
teh twitter
If enlarging the house adds to gridlock
Beaglescout Sunday, January 24th at 2:09PM EST (link)and stops them from spending money on bs then that does not increase the size of government.
“A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one.”
A Tower of Babel seems pretty good for gridlock! - nt
Mike gamecock DeVine Sunday, January 24th at 2:15PM EST (link)Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” - Andrew Jackson
Each new representative would be pressured to justify his/her existence...
rbdwiggins Sunday, January 24th at 2:28PM EST (link)Each new program created for the express purpose of said justification will be accompanied by a corresponding expansion of the federal bureaucracy.
Once an assault of that magnitude begins, the US Constitution will no longer be able to restrain the expansion of federal power.
There’s no escaping the law of unintended consequences.
At that point, our constitutional Republic fails.
“Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn’t so.” – Ronald Reagan
wouldn't their problem be getting significant numbers
nessa Sunday, January 24th at 3:28PM EST (link)to sign on with them? The various caucuses will become more numerous and more powerful, with the ability to promise their members votes for any particular piece of legislation. If all the citizens are better represented, for example the rural areas of California which are surprisingly conservative, the lurch to the left will be blockaded. With sufficient numbers of representatives of the naturally center right people of this country even progressive incrementalism could be stopped. There would still be progressives sent by the limited areas in the large cities, the two coasts etc but they would be outnumbered by representatives of average Americans.
“If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
Contributor to The Minority Report
teh twitter
That's a pipe-dream...
rbdwiggins Sunday, January 24th at 3:51PM EST (link)And as I indicated below, an expanding federal government of that contemplated size and nature is straight from the Progressive’s playbook.
I reiterate my original point: “The answer lies before us: It’s the Assertion of State’s Rights under the Tenth Amendment.”
If you want to return power to the people, you must first return the powers usurped from the States.
“Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn’t so.” – Ronald Reagan
Comparing House expenses and government spending
scharpen Tuesday, January 26th at 4:02AM EST (link)‘rbdwiggins’ - you are equating ‘expanding federal government’ with adding House membership…
In the “Root Cause of Ills in the U.S. House” article that ‘pilgrim’ quoted from, I mentioned that an increase in House membership has a dramatic reduction in spending, based on the data. Quoting from the article:
DECREASED government spending – this seems counter-intuitive, but the data strongly support significant reductions in aggregate spending as the House grows in membership (see the Chen/Malhotra paper from the November 2007 issue of the American Political Science Review). If you think about it from a pork/earmark perspective, as the number of House representatives increase, it’s more difficult to justify spending in one district at the expense of everyone else. In essence, vote buying becomes less practical. Finally, the low incremental cost to pay for more representatives (currently a fraction of 1% of the federal budget) pales in comparison to the potential savings through decreased spending (the other 99% of the budget).
On the Apportionment.US website, I have a FAQ that mentions cost to the taxpayer…
Q: How much money is this going to cost the American taxpayer?
A: House representatives and their staff currently account for a small fraction of 1% of the total Federal budget, so any increased costs will be comparatively small. Also, given the fact that each representative has 22 approved staff allocated to them (which is a large number!), it’s very possible that the number of Federal employees (both reps and staffers) can remain nearly the same, but instead redistribute the employees to include more elected (and accountable) officials. The goal is to reduce the staff and increase the representation, allowing the representatives to be closer to the people they represent. Furthermore, pork-barrel spending will almost certainly decrease with a larger House, because it will be much more difficult to justify favoring one particular district over others, and this monetary savings alone will pay for any increased staff many times over.
Scott Scharpen
That justifies nothing...
rbdwiggins Tuesday, January 26th at 7:00AM EST (link)It’s theoretical and will run headlong into reality, invoking the law of unintended consequences.
It’s straight from the Progressive’s playbook.
“Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn’t so.” – Ronald Reagan
You keep saying that
Finrod Wednesday, January 27th at 2:53AM EST (link)But you aren’t showing any justification for it.
Can you show me any writing by any Progressives where increasing the size of the House is a goal? If it is ’straight from the Progressive’s playbook’, you certainly should be able to find it somewhere.
Furthermore, you’re ignoring his example of New Hampshire and California. California has large districts with few House members and is driving itself into the ground, whereas New Hampshire has small districts with many House members and is doing fine. If you were right, wouldn’t that be reversed?
Your conclusion that growing the size of the House membership would grow the size of government also seems unjustified. Isn’t it easier to convince a smaller number of people to vote for something than it is a larger number? After all, it’s the bills that are passed that grow the government.
Finrod’s First Law of Bandwidth:
A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it takes the bandwidth of ten thousand.
“So let us not talk falsely now, the hour is getting late”
Think for a minute...
rbdwiggins Wednesday, January 27th at 7:59AM EST (link)The difference between New Hampshire and California goes way beyond population and size. I contend that the success in New Hampshire is attributed to the difference in education and political philosophy of the electorate, not the size of the congressional districts, nor the number of representatives.
The essence of the argument: Because our population has grown and our representatives are so overwhelmed by the size of their districts, we must progress in order keep pace with the demands of those they represent and return power to the people. The only way this can be accomplished is to amend the US Constitution and grow the size of the federal government. There’s no need to worry because Congress will become so big and the agenda so diverse that the legislative process will be gridlocked, and therefore, the government is more likely do no harm.
It’s a pipe-dream.
Bottom line: The size of the federal government has grown, and the precedent for its future expansion has been codified in the US Constitution.
Speaking for myself, the proper vehicle for the change we (Conservatives) seek is the Tenth Amendment, not the expansion of the federal government.
“Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn’t so.” – Ronald Reagan
You still haven't justified your statements
Finrod Thursday, January 28th at 2:15AM EST (link)Show me any Progressive that wants to increase the size of the House. Until you can do that, your ‘it’s straight from the Progressive playbook’ is true only in your imagination.
And you still refuse to distinguish between ‘increasing the number of Representatives’ and ‘growing the size of the government’. They’re not equivalent statements, no matter how many times you assert it to be true, and won’t be until you can produce a chain of logic from ‘more Reps in the House’ to ‘more bills will pass’.
Sure we need the Tenth Amendment, but that has nothing to do with whether increasing the size of the House will help or not.
Finrod’s First Law of Bandwidth:
A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it takes the bandwidth of ten thousand.
“So let us not talk falsely now, the hour is getting late”
We'll just have to disagree...
rbdwiggins Thursday, January 28th at 8:16AM EST (link)I do not accept the premise that increasing the size of the federal government in any shape, form or manner will provide any solution to the problems that have been caused by said government, nor will it instill the motivation to do less harm.
Apparently, you do not believe that increasing the size of the House of Representatives is expanding the size of the federal government, even though the Legislative Branch is, in fact, part of the same government.
The bottom line is simple: Under the scenario described in the OP, the size of the federal government will increase. Increasing the size of government — whether it’s local, state or federal — is, in fact, straight from the Progressive playbook, and the net result will be the loss of personal liberty.
The law of unintended consequences will prevail.
“Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn’t so.” – Ronald Reagan
I'm fine with agreeing to disagree
Finrod Saturday, January 30th at 1:47AM EST (link)But I do wish you’d come up with something, anything, to justify your ‘progressive’s playbook’ line.
In any case, keeping the number of House members constant sure hasn’t done a thing to keep the growth of government smaller– in fact the explosion of government started about the time the House membership got its current cap around 100 years ago. Trying something else that’s more within the guidelines that the Founding Fathers set up seems worth a try– one of the original 12 amendments that became the Bill of Rights, the only one that ended up not passing mostly because of an error in it (the rest became Amendments 1-10 and 27), was supposed to limit the size of Congressional districts to 50,000 people, which I think personally is a darn good idea.
Finrod’s First Law of Bandwidth:
A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it takes the bandwidth of ten thousand.
“So let us not talk falsely now, the hour is getting late”
thanks for the recommend, Scott
pilgrim Tuesday, January 26th at 7:03AM EST (link)The recent Supreme Court decision on campaign finance sparked me to write this diary. Do you know if this recent decision gives any added encouragement to the five plaintiffs who filed the case in September that I refer to?
Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all. Frederic Bastiat
Supreme Court decision re: campaign finance
scharpen Tuesday, January 26th at 9:06PM EST (link)‘pilgrim’ - thanks for picking up on this important topic of representation in our Republic. Much more needs to be written!
Not sure about the reaction of the plaintiffs - I will follow-up with them. From my perspective, this has the potential of making the current problem with ’special interest’ spending more problematic. To be clear, monied interests ought to be able to speak their mind with the available means. The perverse incentives enter in, however, when power is concentrated in the hands of a relatively few politicians. This allows a structure where the few can be bought and paid for by special interests, rather than appropriately representing their constituents.
In my “Root Cause” article, a couple of other points (related to special interests) in favor of smaller district sizes (which require a larger House) are:
- DECREASED scope of individual representatives – the problem with the current model is that power is too concentrated, making individual representatives much too influential in the legislative process. Diminishing their individual scope and influence by over 75% should reduce the need for continual media appearances and campaigning, and re-focus their efforts on serving constituents as citizen-legislators. It should also reduce to a more appropriate level the necessary requirements of fundraising and listening to corporate and other special interests.
- INCREASED cost of lobbying – it’s much cheaper and easier to lobby 435 people than nearly 1,800. More representatives may equate to less influence of lobbyists and more protection for the American people.
Thanks,
Scott Scharpen
5555 nessa. Pilgrim's made good arguments for this concept. nt
RoguePolitics Wednesday, January 27th at 9:55AM EST (link)“So much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don’t even know that fire is hot.” George Orwell
“With reasonable men, I will reason; with humane men I will plead; but to tyrants I will give no quarter, nor waste arguments where they will certainly be lost.” William Lloyd Garrison
“What do you need guns for if you are going to send your children, seven hours a day, 180 days a year to government schools. What do you need the guns for at that point?” RC Sproul, Jr
http://DreamsFromMyForefathers.com
http://theprecinctproject.wordpress.com/
A small legislature and large districts is, I believe,
Achance Sunday, January 24th at 1:29PM EST (link)the root of Alaska’s inability to deal effectively with some overarching issues and also of the corruption problems that have bedeviled us. While the graph above shows us to have among the smallest districts in terms of population, most of the 40 House districts and 20 Senate districts are geographically huge. Our one US House seat has a geographic area over twice the size of the next largest STATE, and that state has over 30 House members.
Even in the urban areas districts are large enough that only those who take active steps to engage in political activity are ever likely to see or talk to a rep except during campaign season and established incumbents rarely campaign door to door. Juneau has a population of about 30K and has two representatives and one senator. I’m out and about a good bit and I almost never see any of them - and I know all three of them personally. It is extremely unlikely that any of them would actually have to deal with a constituent in an unplanned manner, e.g., standing in line at the grocery store or the Post Office. Some of the rural house districts are bigger than most states and the senate districts are twice as big and geograpically, culturally, and demographically so diverse that there really is no there there. For example, Senator Kookesh is a Tlingit Indian from the village of Angoon, about 50 air miles from Juneau, and like Juneau only accessible by water or air. The Tlingit are among the most well-off of Alaska’s native people and their ANCSA Corporation is one of the more successful and diversified. Senator Kookesh is on the corporation board. His district reaches all the way to the Bethel area over 300 miles west of Anchorage which is itself about 600 miles north and west of Juneau/Angoon. Most of his district is accessible only by air or water and is composed of Tlingit and Haida Indians in Southeast Alaska, Yupik Eskimo in the Bethel area in Western Alaska, with a smattering of Athabascan Indians, Whites, and Filipinos thrown in for good measure. Whatever else, there isn’t a lot of community of interest between Angoon on a Southeast Alaska island and the river villages of the Eskimo in Western Alaska. So, in reality, the Senator never sees more than a handful of his constituents and he only sees those that he has least in common with at election time if ever at all. He isn’t unigue, he’s just one whose circumstances I know better. These senators especially are far more influenced by the rainmakers, lobbyists and players than by any of their constituents. And once they’re an incumbent, the rainmakers, lobbyists and players will make sure that they can get enough money to campaign solely by invitation fundraisers and eletronic media, so they never have to be bothered with knowing their constituents. The odds of any individual citizen ever meeting a member of the federal delegation are miniscule unless they choose to go to a fundraiser. In forty years here the only one I’ve ever run into casually rather than at some political or social event was Congressman Young and only because we were staying at the same hotel in Anchorage.
Frankly, I’d love to see the Senate go back to being appointed by State Legislatures and have a much larger House of Represenatives. I don’t know that it needs nearly 2K members but doubling it and halving the size of Congressional districts would be a good thing. And as to a new building for a 1000 member House, in the overall scheme of government spending the cost would be change under the sofa cushions.
In Vino Veritas
thanks Art
pilgrim Sunday, January 24th at 1:38PM EST (link)I agree with you about repealing the 17th and also having a larger House. I do not have any exact number or formula in mind for the House, but the current law of capping the number at 435 is not a good situation IMO.
While I was digging up information for this diary I noticed that at one short period of time there were 437 Representatives in the House after Alaska and Hawaii became states. Let me know if you have any info on how the number got dropped from 437 to 435.
Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all. Frederic Bastiat
Increasing the size of the federal government...
rbdwiggins Sunday, January 24th at 2:51PM EST (link)in any manner, shape or form, which includes expanding the House of Representatives, is straight from the Progressive’s playbook and will do irreparable harm to our Republic. Doesn’t matter how well-intentioned.
Note: Alaska and Hawaii were granted representation under the Constitution, and the temporary number of 437 representatives was returned, by law, to 435 following the 1960 Census and subsequent reapportionment.
“Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn’t so.” – Ronald Reagan
Not in this case.
Steph C Tuesday, January 26th at 7:29AM EST (link)Conventional wisdom would indicate that but sometimes, conventional wisdom is counter-intuitive.
Expanding the number of representatives increases the likelihood of having a more representative government rather than a tyranny of the majority, which we see in action right now.
There would also be less potential for voter fraud in smaller districts.
This is thinking outside the progressive box, really.
“[I]f the public are bound to yield obedience to laws to which they cannot give their approbation, they are slaves to those who make such laws and enforce them.” –Candidus in the Boston Gazette, 1772
Hillbilly Politics
Expressly in this case...
rbdwiggins Monday, February 1st at 9:37PM EST (link)And it’s not conventional wisdom…
It’s the wisdom and accumulated knowledge of men.
“Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn’t so.” – Ronald Reagan
I'm as big a Madison fan as the next guy, but...
nessa Monday, February 1st at 10:12PM EST (link)by his description, the House is already too large, it suffers now from most if not all of the maladies he describes.
But when we look to the Senate, obviously considerably smaller, uhm, it does too!
I think our situation now has been nullified from his description by another of the founders warnings. “Enlightened statesmen shall not always be at the helm.”
“If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
Contributor to The Minority Report
teh twitter
Enlightened statesmen...
rbdwiggins Tuesday, February 2nd at 7:06AM EST (link)has taken on a reality that is much different than its original. It used to depict a worldly individual, one who was educated, experienced, patriotic and God-fearing. It has been replaced by the Progressive, an elite class that believes in the power of government over the Liberty of the individual, holds the common man in contempt and places the words of men above the word of God.
As to the Senate: The Founders rejected the election of Senators by popular vote. The net result of the Seventeenth Amendment was the usurpation of States’ Rights by the central government.
John Adams’ clear warning to our fledgling Republic has come to pass.
“Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn’t so.” – Ronald Reagan
Read Walter Williams' article about representational enlargement
Jeff Quidam Monday, January 25th at 7:50PM EST (link)Related to this subject, read “Political Monopoly Power” by Walter Williams
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/oct/19/political-monopoly-power/
Also read “Freedom and Legislative District Sizes” at
http://thirty-thousand-org.blogspot.com/2009/10/freedom-and-legislative-district-sizes.html
For additional information, read the 15 Questions & Answers on the home page of Thirty-Thousand.org.
It was supposed to be our House.
http://www.Thirty-Thousand.org
thanks for the links Jeff
pilgrim Monday, January 25th at 9:52PM EST (link)You have an excellent website at thirty-thousand.org that I have already relied on to direct me to the article written by Scott Scharpen.
I think 30,000 per district is too small, but I agree with the principles that were followed until after 1913.
Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all. Frederic Bastiat
How about 50,000?
Jeff Quidam Monday, February 1st at 8:18PM EST (link)Pilgrim,
Despite the name “Thirty-Thousand.org” (which is a reference to the minimum district size required by the Constitution), we actually recommend a district size of 50,000 as would have been required by “Article the first” as originally proposed by the House of Represenatives.
Please read this:
http://enlargethehouse.blogtownhall.com/
It was supposed to be our House.
http://www.Thirty-Thousand.org
I'm ok with 150,000
pilgrim Monday, February 1st at 8:55PM EST (link)The main principle for me is that as the population increases then the number of seats in the House increases accordingly. I am not ok with the things the House tried recently of adding a couple of seats to the state of Utah so the District of Columbia will get a representative instead of a delegate.
Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all. Frederic Bastiat
House Districts should be based on counties ...
David123 Monday, January 25th at 9:33PM EST (link)and in states that have them, [Virginia], independent cities.
No county could be split unless it has a really large population. Parts of counties could not be combined with each other. Entire contiguous counties that had small populations could be combined together to form one congressional district.
Using the existing county boundaries in 2000 would do a lot to prevent gerry-mandered incumbent protection districts - not a total fix, but much better than what we have now.
David123
Agree completely
Neil Stevens Tuesday, January 26th at 7:12AM EST (link)We ought to get the sizes of the House districts down to what they were in the 18th century.
Unlikely Voter: Poll Analysis, Election Projection.
Current Senate Projection: Republicans +7.
Current House Projection: Republicans +58
Give to the NRCC to fire Nancy Pelosi in November. Become a Precinct Committeeman to fire Michael Steele in December.
Cities.
Steph C Tuesday, January 26th at 7:21AM EST (link)Cities are almost always blue in the red states. Cities are where you find the greatest concentration of poor people dependent upon the government for everything. If a city were to be apportioned districts by the 18th century model, I’d expect to see them become at least purple.
“[I]f the public are bound to yield obedience to laws to which they cannot give their approbation, they are slaves to those who make such laws and enforce them.” –Candidus in the Boston Gazette, 1772
Hillbilly Politics
A re-look at House district in any southern state might get a clue on things
Richard Mullins Tuesday, January 26th at 7:56AM EST (link)We have 150 House district and though a few are large, the balance of isn’t all that bad. It should be better. I toke a chance at looking at your home state of Tennessee and the distribution isn’t all that bad. It’s a good hint on things.
Richard Phillip Mullins BlogThe Squash Satire SiteNews on Happy Jet Airlines
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Joe Biden is like a Decrepit Park owner with a Meth lab that happens to not only be a dealer but a user.
Let’s Bankrupt the Democratic paty. Make spend all the money to defend thier candidates.
actually, Richard, Texas needs more House districts
pilgrim Tuesday, January 26th at 8:16AM EST (link)Only California has a worse ratio than Texas. California has only 80 districts for the 36 million residents. Georgia is a better example to look toward in this matter than Texas.
Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all. Frederic Bastiat
Perhaps be some districts are big because they have little people in them
Richard Mullins Wednesday, January 27th at 8:32AM EST (link)The far west Texas districts little amounts of people in them. I will think that that some of the districts aren’t going to make sense. For example, here the county I use to live http://www.house.state.tx.us/members/pdf/74.pdf I don’t know why in the world Uvalde county is even with the large counties like Brewster and Jeff Davis. If any thing it should be with Kinney and Medina. I think I’ll need to get the email for the Texas Legislature Council. That way you can help them out on getting more districts and more important, better districts.
Richard Phillip Mullins BlogThe Squash Satire SiteNews on Happy Jet Airlines
Rmullins Pics
Rpmullins Twitter
Joe Biden is like a Decrepit Park owner with a Meth lab that happens to not only be a dealer but a user.
Let’s Bankrupt the Democratic paty. Make spend all the money to defend thier candidates.
TN isn't all that bad off.
Steph C Tuesday, January 26th at 8:50AM EST (link)However, you have Davidson County and Nashville as one and the same because it takes up the entire county. Memphis is the same. Knoxville and Chattanooga, so-so because eastern TN leans more right than western TN does, but neither are as big as Memphis or Nashville.
“[I]f the public are bound to yield obedience to laws to which they cannot give their approbation, they are slaves to those who make such laws and enforce them.” –Candidus in the Boston Gazette, 1772
Hillbilly Politics
Another good post Pilgrim.
RoguePolitics Wednesday, January 27th at 10:23AM EST (link)I heard Erick Okeefe make a good point recently. He noted it was when parties lost control of the nomination process is when government growth took off.
It is also when long term incumbency took off.
Before popular primary elections occurred the parties selected the candidates obviously.
This meant they had control of the candidates since they could ensure a disloyal politician did not get renominated.
When we speak of purging the party today it is virtually impossible to do it since the party really has little or no control over the nomination process.
Before primaries the average congressman served fewer than two terms. Now the average is between six and eight.
Some much was done to destroy the Republic during the Progressive Era that it is hard to keep track of it all. But we should track it all and undo it all as much as we can.
“So much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don’t even know that fire is hot.” George Orwell
“With reasonable men, I will reason; with humane men I will plead; but to tyrants I will give no quarter, nor waste arguments where they will certainly be lost.” William Lloyd Garrison
“What do you need guns for if you are going to send your children, seven hours a day, 180 days a year to government schools. What do you need the guns for at that point?” RC Sproul, Jr
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http://theprecinctproject.wordpress.com/