« BACK  |  PRINT

RS

MEMBER DIARY

Women In The Israeli Army

Why it is stil a bad idea for American women to be in combat.

By: plumely (Diary)  |  January 30th, 2013 at 10:21 AM  | 

RESIZE: AAA

Let’s say you’re in an argument with a liberal about American Women In Combat. Now, before I proceed any further, I must say I am building on a comment I posted to another Red Stater’s Diary.

Ok. Again, let’s say you are in an argument with a liberal about American Women in combat. Usually this argument takes place between two men. One is conservative and the other is a sensitive male liberal.

The conservative will say that American women in combat is a bad idea and they will make the argument that it wrecks unit cohesion. They will also make the argument that men are physically stronger then women.

Then, liberal will retort with an example of how Israel uses women in the army to great success which disproves all of conservative’s arguments about unit cohesion etc. Plus, he may go on to say that those women probably fight better then men… blah blah blah!

Well, if I I am using this term correctly he has just put up a “Straw Man” argument. If I have used this term incorrectly then I will say his argument is bunk and holds no water and here is why in several bullet points.

  • An Israeli woman’s experience is far different from an American woman’s experience in that they live in a combat zone. In otherwords, they live with the fact they that could walk into a restaurant or grocery store and get blown to bits by some suicide bomber. So, naturally just living in  this type of environment would make them more combat ready by way of a completely different set of survival instincts. American women, relatively speaking live in a much safer environment and don’t really have the same safety concerns of the Israeli woman.
  • The women in combat in Israel are there out of necessity due to a smaller population. They are needed to round out the fighting force.
  • Israel experiences constant attacks by a guerrilla army on their own soil. For the Israeli citizen it is fight or die and that includes women. Americans are under no such pressure.
  • Just because the Israeli Army employs the use of women does not mean it is an optimal situation for them. Again out of necessity they are forced to make it work.

From what I hear, the reasons for an an American woman wanting to go into combat is so they can rise higher up in the ranks of military? This is far different than the prevailing reason that Israeli women are in combat. Note, that if someday we are being constantly attacked on our own soil from either Mexico or Canada or bugs or aliens from outerspace, I say give every woman an m16 or in the case of aliens a pulse rifle, because again, it will be necessary and we will have no choice in the matter.

Right now, as it stands, women have a choice if they join the military as to whether they want to go into combat. Maybe those women should put aside their egos and ambition and think about what is truly best for the country.

 

 

COMMENTS

POSTING RULES  |  LOGIN TO COMMENT  |  REGISTER TODAY
  • funwithknives

    For Now, in this instant, we hear that Women will have to make the same grade as
    The Guys do, with no exceptions in qualifying or training being allowed.
    But we here know that The Dialectic rules Progressivism , and that over time ‘allowances and compromises’ have to be made.
    The Foot is in the door and there is no going back.
    {Enter “Kara Hultgreen,deceased Navy Pilot” into an engine and get your eyes opened
    w i d e}
    Israeli women are not in commando or SEAL-type units for a reson: They get hit, go down and everyone goes to help, as an instinct. No good results come from this mistaken policy.
    But like dis- and re-arming a military, people are gonna’ die to prove this reality.
    …and The Fingers will be a -flyin’……………..

    • plumely

      Fun, I agree, I guess the overall point that I should’ve made is that a decision this drastic should be made out of necessity, and not based on politics or career advancement.

      • funwithknives

        You made the point , 5 by 5, plumely
        IMHO, why not come up with a work experience factor in-liu of a ticket-punching factor in rank elevations?
        Kinda’ like girls push-ups……..only taken ‘more seriouser’………
        [...ducking as I keystroke...]

    • Melody Warbington

      You’re right, fwk. I commented with some research on Israeli women on another diary.

      Here http://www.redstate.com/mvespa/2013/01/29/why-hello-g-i-jane/#comment-782850841 and here http://www.redstate.com/mvespa/2013/01/29/why-hello-g-i-jane/#comment-782850841

      I also found a brilliant article on how gender equality social engineering is just a means to insure equal results. http://www.redstate.com/mvespa/2013/01/29/why-hello-g-i-jane/#comment-782570906

      • funwithknives

        Wait, just a darn minute here !! I’m right (?) and A Lady says so?
        HolyMackrelAndy, what is next?
        Ice Cream is a Health Food ?
        Chubby is The New Alluring Trait, to Victoria’s Secret Models ?
        Barack Obama is a previously thought-of extinct species and is getting USFS protected species coverage?
        Piers Morgan is moving to Zimbabwe…?
        [Where do we start-up that collection....?]

  • Melody Warbington

    Gold star for you, plumely.

    • plumely

      Thankyou Melody, I must qualify this by saying I think women have a place in the military, but we need to consider their role in regard to how they can best serve our armed forces and the country.

      • Melody Warbington

        As do I, plumely. However, first and foremost, we have to consider what is best for our armed forces and the country. Then consider the roles in which women as well as men can best serve. I happen to believe women in combat is not in our best interest for a variety of reasons.

  • PowerToThePeople

    Hey plumely, couple of points,

    Backtracking your comments shows that I believe you were referring to me, so I must state this, Learn how to use reply to this so your cowardly remarks make it to the person it is intended to make it to, learn what a liberal is because if you are calling me a liberal than you are one dumb……….fill in the blank, have enough courage to use the person’s name in your post so that you can be shown your stupidity, and learn what a strawman is rather than just using words in attempt to make yourself look smarter than others.

    Not your place to decide what women can do, but at least now the rest of us know you are a “keep the wife in the kitchen” type of guy.

    PS, it is obvious from your Israel does it because…………comments that you have no clue as to what you are talking about and simply pulled those made up “facts” from your nether regions, so until you make one factual backed in reality non sexist remark, you and your opinion shall remain insignificant amongst any real man who is not threatened by a woman doing more than laying legs up in a bed.

    • plumely

      Power to the People I was making a general comment when I made my first reply. I have the courage to reply to you and unlike you I don’t have to revert to name calling to make my points. The bullet points that I have mentioned are observations of what the situation in Israel is and what the situation in America is. PTTP we all get it here, you are a sensitive male.

      • PowerToThePeople

        Sure you do buddy. Oh, better put that famous shirt on, your significant other is thinking for herself, how dare she……

        • plumely

          Dude now you are making zero sense.. gonna stay classy on this one and not revert to name calling. Peace to you and your significant other.

          • PowerToThePeople

            Ok there Bub, so you are intelligent enough to determine where a woman’s place is in the military, but not intelligent enough to see I am insulting your sexist views. Guess that shows we should allow those with a higher IQ to determine who is capable of dying for this country instead of looking to your opinion.

            Does that make enough sense to you? Hate to break it to you bub, the moment you started demeaning women, you left classy in the dust.

            But just for the few on here who seem unable to comprehend the stupidity of their argument, here is my belief loud and clear.

            There are few I respect on here more than Melody. But on this subject she is caught up in the hysteria and what ifs.

            All you guys who think women should not serve know little of history both in this country and in others. Women have served with distinction, fought for, died for, shown themselves to be heroes long before this discussion ever arose. To assume that those women are the exception is pure unadulterated sexism and ignorance.

            Melody made valid points but only if what she talked about was a reality. No policy on female admittance to combat has been set or even disclosed. So what may happen or what you think may happen is irrelevant and immaterial to this discussion.

            No one knows how the standards will be set, period. Not you, not Melody, not me, not anyone. So to bit*h about possible scenarios and deem women unfit to fight and die for this country is ignorant and laughable.

            But what is even more disgusting is the blatant sexism and ignorance shown by so called conservatives on this board, but you take it even further. You accuse anyone who supports women in combat as being liberals and actually claim that to prohibit women from combat based on ignorant unfounded reasons is the true conservative mantra.

            There are hundreds of thousands of women more fit, more strong, more ready for war than most men on this planet. And yet you couch potato keyboard warrior men actually think yourselves the better. The only issue with women being in combat that any decent person should take cause with is lowered standards for admittance. And since not one damn person knows how that will turn out, there is nothing to discuss at this point. And to state women have “appropriate places,” “not their place to be in combat,” “women are inferior to men in fitness and strength,” and so on and so on is plain out disgusting and is not, and I repeat not, and conservative value.

            No one here knows how our women will perform, but based on our own country’s past history, they will perform admirably. So to sum my position up, women can do as they please, if a woman want to defend her country on the front line, who am I to say no. As long she, and he by the way, are prepared, trained, and capable, thank God she has the courage and determination to die for us when so many men do not have the same fortitude including many on here.

            So if you do no like woman serving, fine. But do not act pious because of your backward views, be ashamed.

          • Melody Warbington

            With all due respect (and I mean that sincerely, not in a bless your heart way), but I’m not caught up in hysteria or what if’s, and for you to say so is an insult. Actually sounds quite sexist. Hysterical female and all that. I posted valid reasons for my opinion, including the fact that the scoring system for the army’s fitness standards are already skewed. There is no reason to think that won’t continue.

            Further, there is clear evidence that men and women are different, react different, have different instincts, treat each other differently. That shouldn’t even be a consideration in combat – only to kill the enemy and break things. But it will be.

            Finally, you offered nothing in response to the questions I posed regarding the probability of additional costs incurred by having women serve in combat and what kind of special privileges they may garner by virtue of being women. Single mothers, for example, or women who get pregnant. Do they get to bail out? Shouldn’t these things be quantified before moving forward? As conservatives, we sure want to know the cost of just about everything else before we approve it.

            However, what’s done is done. At this point, if women want to serve in combat, so be it. I just want to make sure they have to suffer the same risks and liabilities as men. Have they announced yet if girls have to sign up for selective service when they turn 18? After, equal is equal except when it isn’t. All these years women have been screaming for equality in the military, yet none of them called for girls to register like the men in my family did.

          • PowerToThePeople

            Melody, the issues you have raised primarily, are what ifs. What if they lower the standard to make room for women……..well we do not know do we? Well the women may get pregnant to get out of duty…….really? Well men will treat them different……….really? Same argument was made many years ago when integration occurred and while there were some cases, it was the exception to the rule.

            The problem with your argument is assumptions. Women have served in combat many times in our history, and have done quite well. If you were hypothetically asking questions about or raising concerns about lowered standards, it would be a valid discussion. But that is now what is happening here. You as a woman are siding with men on here who deem you only fit to fill “appropriate” roles they deem you worthy of. Most of these men have probably never had the uniform on and yet they deem themselves worthy to tell you what you can do or what you are capable of. You have sided with men who claim you are inferior physically just because you are a woman. I bet many of them struggle to get to their own feet when seated due to the belly getting in the way, yet they deem themselves able to dictate all women’s physical ability.

            The only thing that has changed in the last few days is that the ban on females in combat has been lifted and it should have been. The long held belief by the military that women were only fit as secretaries and bandage appliers is coming to an end. No policy has been set and in fact the marine spokesman stated clearly yesterday that his division would be working on the protocol for quite some time to ensure they remain the best. So until a policy is put in place and it is a bad policy, all this is nonsense.

            I just feel you are missing the fact that these men you give the thumbs up to are backwards men who have done nothing but mock the entire female sex. They make statements that are embarrassing and for you as a proud woman to agree with the generalization is to say the least surprising.

            If folks were sticking to conversations as to protocol and the need to make sure women are required to be the best of the best as well, fine. It would be a very valid conversation. But that is not what is happening here and I think you should reread the comments by this author and the others, notice how they deem you inferior, incapable, unable to perform due to a vagina, will cause all us dirty men to abandon our duties due to the same vagina, how women are inferior physically, etc and it would make your blood boil rather than make you nod in agreement. You are not inferior, women are not inferior, women are capable of serving with honor, they are able to keep their vagina out of the service, they are able to fight and die without running out and getting pregnant just to avoid duty, and so on and so on. There are a ton of women out there who I would rather fight and die with than many of the men. In fact, I am more proud of the woman who is willing to train, excel, fight, and even die for us than I am the many men who use the army for everything other than what it is intended to be for.

          • Viet71

            PTTP,

            You write like a warrior.

            I ask you again, have you served in the military?

            Doesn’t matter to me. Just interested in your POV.

          • PowerToThePeople

            As I stated before, yes. I served quite a few years and did tours in Nam. Lost my brother, my cousin, and quite a few friends there. I saw women fight and die on both sides and saw both acts of courage and cowardice from both genders. So I have no problem with women who want to serve in combat serving.

          • Melody Warbington

            PTTP, the standards are already different. I linked to the army’s own website that says so.

            As for the rest of your post, I’m sorely tempted to ignore it entirely since you insult the men in my family, many of whom have served in combat, and all of whom without exception believe combat is no place for a woman for a variety of reasons. They are not backwards men, they have not mocked women, and they have never so much as hinted that women are anything less than extraordinary, valuable and worth protecting at all costs. The fact is I am different from men and physically inferior as well. That’s why I carry a .38.

            It’s clear we’re not going to see eye to eye on this, so I’m going to refrain from further comment.

          • PowerToThePeople

            Well then we will leave at that. But just since we are both being honest, I do take issue with any man, especially those who have served under fire, giving a damn what gender sits beside them giving up a heroic fight to save their fellow soldiers and even dying for it. I and any other soldier who has been under fire only wants to know the person beside them is in it with them, not whether they have a vagina or not, not whether they are black or not as the same arguments made by so many here were applied when people started talking about blacks being in combat. Only thing missing is the IQ of a monkey comments. The way things are going here with some, I expect the same similar trash comment to be made about women.

            By the way, if I was not clear that I was referring to men who have posted here that have made disparaging remarks that you have given thumbs up to, then let that be made clear now. I have no clue as to the reasons your relatives want to exclude women, but I do know the reason those who want the same here are using. If you are OK with strangers telling you that you have an appropriate place that they set, that your gender is inferior, etc and you are OK with that, who am I to disagree with you. But for all the women and men who do disagree, got to keep calling them on their BS.

            Hope there are no hard feelings, you are one of the best here.

            By the way, as to the constant calls about different standards, so what. Yes there are already different standards but few if any of those standards reflect a less than ready ability to fight.

            Do you have a problem with women being cops? Cops on the beat? Standards were “lowered” to allow women to be cops. Seemed being 6 foot something did not make a person a better cop or a more fit cop. Being able to lift 100 lbs from the ground did not end up being a standard that made one a good cop and anther a bad one. Are there woman who slip through the cracks, yes. But the same could be said about many of the men. And yet most police forces are better off now because women are in those jobs then they were before. And I remember the same arguments here being used against allowing ladies to be beat cops. Some of the best cops in this nation are women and they are not inferior.

          • Melody Warbington

            No hard feelings, but I’m finished except for a couple of parting comments. Different does not mean inferior. Just different. Comparing women in the military to black men is not apples to apples. Neither is comparing women cops (who I’m guessing have separate facilities) to being in a foxhole and all that entails.

          • plumely

            PTTP, thanks for stating that it is not necessary to treat you with respect… Because you deserve none since you come off as common liberal trash. I have no more time to argue with any more about this. Quite frankly you have done nothing to back your position up with any facts and instead you froth at the mouth and name call. I’ve known plenty of people like you who try to position themselves as defenders of champions of women. You all have the same MO. You foam at the mouth and call anyone who disagrees with you idiots morons , Neandrethals etc. But deep down inside “bub” it is you who are the woman hater. You can rail and scream at me all you want(oh by the way I don’t think you have the guts to have this conversation with anyone in person, you yourself hide behind a keyboard) but, I know that all of your posturing and calling men idiots is just how you hide the fact that you have sexist views of your own. Personally, I agree with you some women might do a better job of fighting than men. This is especially true if those men are anything like you.

          • PowerToThePeople

            First, you would not know a liberal if they smacked you in the face and even my detractors are getting a good laugh at your liberal comment.

            Second, my address is in Laurens South Carolina and I will be in the following towns on these days. Richmond MI Feb 8th, 9th, 10th. Miami Florida Feb 14th through the 18th, Boyd Texas March 15th through the 20th, and Las Vegas Nevada April 23rd through 28th. Feel free to test your man theory if any of those dates or places suit you. If not, will be happy to provide you with my schedule further out. Do not make your childish threats son, you will get checked. I do not need to put women in their “place” to feel like my lower ego is bigger than it is, unlike you. Just accept the fact you are sexist trash and run along.

            Now run along and beat your gal a bit more, would not want her to elevate herself above the position you deem her worthy of.

          • plumely

            Oh so your a tough guy now! OOOOOO I am so scared…. and I will get checked… your so gangsta too *L* Don’t worry this will be my last reply… you’re so pathetic and I am sorry I have to stoop to your level. Basically you sound like a college freshman who is trying to get into a hippy chick’s pants… for all the respect you say you have for women you seem to want to disrespect my “significant other.” Don’t worry she doesn’t need a nancy boy like you defending her. Grow up you low life scum… again I am done with you punk! *walking away laughing*

          • PowerToThePeople

            So easy to send you down the path I want. You have effectively demonstrated to all who you are. But I must remind you, you are the one who started the whole tough guy routine, I simply afforded you the chance to prove your point.

            Also, make up your mind, flaming liberal or college freshman. Funny how you push yourself off as tough and I as the weak kneed hide behind computer guy, and you run off like the kicked dog. Tsk, tsk, tsk, now everyone sees why you must spout off at the mouth so much about where you have determined the appropriate place for a woman is and how they are too inferior to fight.

            Let me know if you need my schedule.

  • $22358617

    According to the IDF, women make up a whopping 3% of Israeli combat soldiers.

    http://www.idf.il/1086-14000-EN/Dover.aspx

    • PowerToThePeople

      I do not think that link provides the backup you intended it to provide. Should have read past the figure, especially considering it is quite outdated, and finished the article.

      And what is your point? Do you think woman are not fit to serve and 3% is too much? Do you think somehow now women in this country will rush to combat roles? Maybe you think women will take over more than 3% of those roles? Or are you one of the “men” here who think women can only do what you allow? Maybe you are one who thinks women will allow their vagina to dictate how they behave and serve and that men around them will not be able to control their urges?

      Don’t tell me, you are another person who thinks women have appropriate places that can only be defined by men like you?

      I can not believe there are so many backward idiots here so willing to
      marginalize women into the roles they deem they are fit for. But what is
      even more disgusting is that so many of you claim that attitude is the
      conservative way to be.

      Correct me if I am wrong.

  • Don T.

    Plumely…well written, well reasoned, and coherent.

  • naraht

    Basically, all your argument says is that the Draft shouldn’t include women. I see nothing in your argument that makes any difference in whether the women shouldn’t be in combat units.

    And the *last* people who want a draft are the professional soldiers.