« BACK  |  PRINT

RS

MEMBER DIARY

Obamacare – The Middle Class Gets Hammered, and the Worst is Yet to Come

Is it a tax or is it a penalty or is it a fee?  Call it what you will, but one fact remains: the middle class, the group that pays the bills, will get hammered.  The Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation has an excellent, informative section on their website devoted to the Affordable Care Act that describes in detail how the Act will work for companies and individuals and what it’s going to cost.

For individuals, who has to pay and who is exempt?  The answer is behind Door #1.  According to Kaiser’s site [emphasis mine]:

Several groups are exempt from the requirement to obtain coverage or pay the penalty, including: people who would have to pay more than 8% of their income for health insurance, people with incomes below the threshold required for filing taxes (in 2009, $9,350 for a single person and $26,000 for a married couple with two children), those who qualify for religious exemptions, undocumented immigrants, people who are incarcerated, and members of Indian tribes.

I especially like the “undocumented immigrants” since that’s the demographic group responsible in part for driving up our healthcare costs — ask California.

Next, we have the question of what is the penalty for an individual if he/she decides to forego the purchase of insurance [emphasis mine]:

The penalty for people who forego insurance is the greatest of two amounts: a specified percentage of income or a specified dollar amount. The percentages of income are phased in over time at 1% in 2014, 2% in 2015, and 2.5% starting in 2016. The dollar amounts are also phased in at $95 in 2014, $325 in 2015, and $695 beginning in 2016 (with annual increases after that).

To take this a step further, utilizing Kaiser’s “Subsidy Calculator“, you can complete the brief online form to find out in rough terms what the ACA mandate will cost you to enroll in a state Exchange if you don’t have insurance in 2014, or, if your employer decides to drop coverage.  Using the site’s subsidy calculator, let’s see how much this mandate is going to cost a family of four in 2014.

Let’s say we have a couple with two children.  Husband and wife both work, and their combined income is $100,000/year.  Their employers make a business decision to drop their insurance coverage.  If they want insurance, they turn to the state Exchange.  Using the Kaiser calculator, their annual premium is $12,130, (12.13% of their income) of which the government will subsidize $0, since they are 427% above the poverty level.  While Obamacare does not require you to purchase or pay a penalty if the premium is above 8% of your annual income, the family still has to pay if they want health insurance.

Second example, myself.  Currently working for a firm that offers a “Cadillac” plan.  I have major medical, dental, vision, long & short term disability, sick days, etc.  My cost: $2632/year.  Let’s say my employer drops insurance coverage as a business decision, and I’m forced into a state state health Exchange if I want insurance.  Using the Kaiser subsidy calculator, my annual cost is now $10,172; government tax credit – $0.  An increase of 286%.  Thank you Barack Obama, Nancy Pelosi, and Harry Reid.

Recent research by McKinsey and Company, “How US Health Care Reform will Affect Employee Benefits“ indicates that the Obamacare subsidy will encourage companies to re-evaluate and potentially drop their employer-sponsored insurance (ESI).  The Congressional Budget Office originally estimated the number of employers dropping coverage at 7%; McKinsey’s number is at 30%  or more.

Our survey found, however, that 45 to 50 percent of employers say they will definitely or probably pursue alternatives to ESI in the years after 2014. Those alternatives include dropping coverage, offering it through a defined-contribution model, or in effect offering it only to certain employees. More than 30 percent of employers overall, and 28 percent of large ones, say they will definitely or probably drop coverage after 2014.

Obamacare will also fundamentally alter our choices in how much we are allowed to spend on healthcare for ourselves and family members.  Burke J. Balch, Director of the Robert Powell Center for Medical Ethics at National Right to Life, was recently interviewed in an article for The Washington Free Beacon where he discusses the rationing aspects of Obamacare.

The fundamental provisions in the law that give federal bureaucrats the authority to limit what Americans are allowed to choose to spend to save the lives of their family members remain intact,” Balch said.

One of the most contentious pieces of the legislation is the Independent Payment Advisory Board (IPAB), which has been termed “death panels” by many. Why?  Because Obamacare targets the senior population.

This group of regulators “is directed, starting in 2015 and every two years thereafter, to make recommendations … to limit the ability of Americans to put resources into healthcare so that they stay below certain goals set forth in the legislation.” IPAB sets a price cap, a dollar amount beyond which Americans cannot pay for care.

Balch explained under the current Medicare plan there are two ways to receive coverage under Medicare: direct government reimbursement for care and voucher payment. If citizens use the voucher payment method, they can spend their own money to receive more care, just as retired people can add their own money through 401Ks to Social Security when saving for retirement.

Under the Obama health care law,” Balch explained, “the Department of Health and Human Services is given the authority to exclude or limit your ability to add your own money.” HHS does this indirectly, by restricting access to Medicare advantage.

Insurance plans cannot participate in the voucher side of Medicare “if they allow people to spend what” the department considers “too much money.”

But if you think rationing is only for the senior population, think again.

Employers will provide vouchers, and the citizens can pay more if necessary (like the Medicare voucher plan). “The limitation on this,” Balch explained, “is that, under the law, insurers will be excluded from these exchanges if their insurance plans allow people to spend what is deemed by the bureaucrats to be ‘an excessive or unjustified amount’ on health care.”

As a result, if a regulator thinks an insurance company has a “pattern or practice” of allowing people to spend an “excessive or unjustified” amount on health care, he can exclude that company from the market. Any insurer judged “too expensive” will not be able to sell health insurance to Americans.

Having cared for an elderly mother for 10 years before her passing due to Alzheimers at age 93, I got to experience first-hand our health care system and the players involved.  Reform is definitely needed.  No one should be denied insurance because of pre-existing conditions, and no family should have to go bankrupt because of illness.  However, Obamacare is not the answer.  Its cost will help bankrupt all of us, and will force unnecessary government intrusion into our lives at times when privacy is most warranted.

While the state of the economy and jobs are on the minds of most Americans, Obamacare is contributing as a cause to the meagerness of our recovery because of its regulations and price tag.   And finally, as Justice Kennedy commented during oral arguments, it comes down to freedom and liberty and the relationship that we as citizens hold with our government:

And here the government is saying that the Federal Government has a duty to tell the individual citizen that it must act, and that is different from what we have in previous cases and that changes the relationship of the Federal Government to the individual in the very fundamental way.

November 6, 2012.  The day we take America back.

 

Cross-posted on www.political-woman.com

COMMENTS

  • fightnright

    I expected that the Democrat party’s talking point the Sunday after the SCOTUS decision came down, repeatedly calling those hardworking citizens who choose not to be insured ‘free-riders’ was a serious slip that would gain some traction.

    Calling taxpayers free-riders was pretty enraging to me, especially when liberals would never, ever refer to those who leech off the medical/ educational/social system by entering illegally, or those who abuse entitlement programs through generations rather than as an emergency stopgap, by such a derogatory term.

    Now it’s official: the Dem point of view regarding safety nets is that those Americans who have paid into the system for decades and need relief will be rejected or vilified; those who never contributed, break the rules and exploit it will be rewarded.

  • Ausonius

    A doctor who has been a friend for 40 years was wondering if an underground movement – already begun here and there – to go to cash would not make MAObamaCare irrelevant in the long term.

    That would be fine for smaller things of course, but with hospitals plugged into inflated prices because of “free” insurance from the government, I am not sure that even long-term it could work.

    One type of shrugging has already occurred: my youngest has decided not to become a doctor. As of the day when Roberts choked and let the Obullybama scare him into supporting the Hell-th Care bill, my son said it would not be worth it.

    He has a Master’s in Mathematics and will stay in the computer field. I suspect he is not the only one reconsidering a career in Medicine in America these days. Who wants to be a puppet of government bureaucrats? It is bad enough right now with insurance bureaucrats from both companies and government dictating to doctors how they are allowed to handle a patient’s care.

    • izoneguy

      If we fail to repeal ObamaCare the doctors will do the shrugging for us…

      They will quit in droves. You may get “health insurance” but you may not get
      “healthcare”.

      The dreams of the progressives that everyone has healthcare kinda forgets who actually gives the healthcare. I don’t think doctors will work for free and
      not under threats of the federal government.

      Eventually the feds will have to set up a “healthcare corp”. Young progressives
      who always wanted to be a doctor but could not afford medical school will be recruited to work for the glory of the social state….

      Kinda like Cuba…..

      • Ausonius

        Yes, as I wrote above, and as you predict for the future, on a small scale right now a medical underground of sorts is forming from “shrugging” doctors and others in the field.

        To be sure, some will stay because they are true-believers in Leftism, or because they will hope that they can still help people despite the strictures of government, or because Medicine is their vocation and they stay with it no matter what.

        But I suspect that one will see fewer doctors and other medical personnel, if BIG BRObama’s plan is not repealed.

        • Ausonius

          Such a coincidence after we just had the above discussion today:

          http://dailycaller.com/2012/07/09/report-83-percent-of-doctors-have-considered-quitting-over-obamacare/

          • westcoastpatriette

            And who can blame them?

  • Pingback: Program tv

  • Pingback: Reginald Querry

  • Pingback: Everett Heuangvilay

  • Pingback: Nelda Dimsdale

  • Pingback: Veta Morgenstern

  • Pingback: Cinderella Zartman

  • Pingback: Colin Yoeckel

  • Pingback: Lindsey Garlinger

  • Pingback: Benedict Mangrich

  • Pingback: Homer Prybylski

  • Pingback: Jonah Gallivan

  • Pingback: Russel Gerena

  • Pingback: Google

  • Pingback: Herschel Grimaud

  • Pingback: Eduardo Mainer

  • Pingback: Lyle Hortman

  • Pingback: Brigida Gunder

  • Pingback: Keenan Pretti

  • Pingback: Fredric Shird

  • Pingback: Mary Touhy

  • Pingback: Dewey Sirhan

  • Pingback: Theo Forero

  • Pingback: Scott Goubeaux

  • Pingback: Salvatore Capek

  • Pingback: Hien Jou

  • Pingback: Shanell Volle

  • Pingback: Kristan Eurbin

  • Pingback: Kory Bro

  • Pingback: Davis Mascaro

  • Pingback: Rufina Declue

  • Pingback: edu link building service

  • Pingback: Carina Allmond

  • Pingback: aci Sarault

  • Pingback: Florencio Melchin

  • Pingback: Tonda Blomstrand

  • Pingback: Roderick Schreader

  • Pingback: Linnie Cundy

  • Pingback: Kristin Bielecki

  • Pingback: Maureen Sabo

  • Pingback: Rocky Capriccioso

  • Pingback: Carmen Cianfrini

  • Pingback: Jolyn Mogavero

  • Pingback: Birdie Alvidrez

  • Pingback: Dorian Landerman

  • Pingback: Gil Croslin

  • Pingback: Breanna Beemer

  • Pingback: Renato Gilger

  • Pingback: Mary Tridle

  • Pingback: Stephen Benedetti

  • Pingback: Isidra Khare

  • Pingback: Delaine Coteat

  • Pingback: Christene Martensen

  • Pingback: Eugenia Hasgill

  • Pingback: Irena Griggers

  • Pingback: Jeremy Goettel

  • Pingback: Sherry Gillig

  • Pingback: Nick Berczel

  • Pingback: Lane Tartaglino

  • Pingback: Janyce Frees

  • Pingback: Policy Memo: PPACA (Patient Protection & Affordacble Care Act) « Asian American Health Issues

  • Viet71

    n/t

  • americanviewpoint

    Healthcare costs have been growing for decades. And even in a state like Texas where they have emasculated the ability of trial lawyers to bring malpractice suits, there are still many problems. What do we want to do to address the problems, because even when Obamacare is overturned, the previous system had some pretty severe flaws. It’s not enough to be against something, is there an approach that can address the problems and not grow the deficit.

  • http://www.political-woman.com politicalwoman

    n/t

  • http://www.political-woman.com politicalwoman

    The Repubs seem to be hanging their hats on the Ryan Budget to address Medicare, etc. but they’ve been terrible communicators when it comes to healthcare reform.

    I was primary caregiver to my 93-year old mother before she finally passed due to dementia. I saw first-hand our health care system and the providers, some good, some in it for the money from Medicare. People should not have to go bankrupt because of illness or denied coverage because of pre-existing conditions imho.

    Boehner and the Repubs have to convey to the American people what it is that they’ll replace Obamacare with, which they, and Romney have failed to do. If they have, I haven’t heard it or I’m not paying attention.

  • acat

    Simply put, there is so much that would be better than Obamacare that there’s really not a good reason to discuss the particulars right now.

    If we discuss ‘em, we run the risk of shattering our own loose alliance as well as giving Obama talking points.

    In short, it’s like illegal immigration – we’re much better off muzzling morons like Tancredo, talking about border enforcement as a national security and law & order issue, and after fixing *that*, moving on to discuss the illegals among us.

    Mew

  • YnotNOW

    http://www.savingthedream.org/about-the-plan/

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    Cute.

  • Bill S

    …proposed an alternate plan. NEVER.

    Grow a brain, CT.

  • acat

    See my reply to americanviewpoint above.

    Let’s elect congresscritters who will overturn, a POTUS who will sign the overturning, and *then* we can figure out what reforms are needed.

    If we start to have the argument now, we will only serve those who want to let Obamacare stand.

    Mew

  • westcoastpatriette

    because I disagree that Republicans are not answering the “replacement” question. I have heard Romney, Boehner, Ryan and McConnell all give very good extensive answers for what they would do instead of OCare and it just seems to fly over people’s heads.

    I think too many Republicans are expecting too much or have been sucked into the “federal government must do something about all our problems” meme and think the answers they are giving are insufficient and they are not.

    Remember, as conservatives, our “solutions” are free-market oriented, not government oriented. Let the states handle health care. There is very little the feds should do about any of it short of removing barriers to interstate sale of insurance. That alone will bring prices down. States can do an assortment of things such as the tort reform that Texas enacted.

    It is making me nervous listening to conservatives worry that we need something to replace OCare. Don’t feed the federal pig. Let states handle details how they see fit.

  • Melody Warbington (rwm52)

    It’s incomprehensible that our elected officials have failed to pass tort reform and measures which would allow us to buy insurance across states lines and allow small businesses to bundle their coverage. These common sense measures would go a long way in resolving the problems.

  • acat

    as income for tax purposes, and increasing the individual deduction.

    This would have the effect of making insurance decisions based on real dollars, and would likely increase the number of low-cost options in the marketplace.

    Right now, most insurance is sold to employers, not to individuals … no wonder the market is warped!

    Mew

  • lastgopinillinois

    of illinois; if you have the television turned on during primetime, you will see one if not two ads per commercial break by ambulance-chasing trail lawyers against pharmaceutical companies (aimed at getting people who have contracted illnesses to call the lawyers so they can join the ranks of those who want to play the blame-game on drug manufacturers).

    This is not an exaggeration! One or two ads (different drugs) each and every commercial break, all thru primetime TV.

    But, hey, it illinois, the corruption capitol of the nation. (trial lawyers in-bed with chicago democrat mafia).
    Tort reform is sorely needed.

  • Viet71

    You are correct in principle, IMO.

    But politicalwoman is closer to the pulse of American voters. If not Obamacare, what? That’s not my question, but I imagine it’s the question of lots of Americans.

  • acat

    I disagree that now is the right time to start answering that question.

    If we leave too long between the answer and the election, it becomes a wedge.

    Ask me again on Halloween.

    Mew

  • jimmyg

    I do not think it is enough for Romney to not be Obama. When Romney initially spoke about the Sup. Ct. decision, he stood behind a podium that said “Repeal and Replace Obamacare”. This invites the question, “replace with what?”.

  • 10ab

    We all know hard working people who have almost bankrupted themselves due to cancer or other devastating illness. The murmurs are starting and Romney must state a plan. I think the aging baby boomers are going to hone in on this issue as the election draws near…it is a tax, no it’s a penalty semantics is going to be meaningless. The general public will vote their pocketbooks and Romney has a chance to shine. McConnell’s remark about not worrying about 30 million uninsured was idiotic and left Gov Romney vulnerable. He needs to address and fix it!

  • acat

    If Romney says replace with something that includes buying insurance across state lines, but also allows parents to keep kids on their insurance indefinitely, provided the “kid” is in college….

    If Romney says replace with something that includes a larger individual deduction, treating all insurance premiums paid by the employer as income, and eliminates chronic pre-existing conditions as a reason for insurance companies to deny coverage?

    If Romney says replace with something that includes hard restrictions on “pain and suffering” claims, but also includes a requirement that States cover the cost of purchasing or establishing “bulk policies” for “any and all uninsured in the State”….

    In short, the conversation is going to include some of the parts of Obamacare that are quite objectionable to Conservatives… and will tend to provoke more red-on-red bile.

    Yes, that conversation needs to happen, but .. it should be put off until much, much closer to the election.

    Otherwise, we’re just making it more likely that we end up keeping Obamacare.

    Mew

  • jimmyg

    to strike replace, from the repeal and replace obamacare slogan.

  • acat

    The squishy middle, who *love* some of the parts of Obamacare, and who *decide elections* want to know that they’ll get some goodies…

    Romney is trying to put together a coalition to win an election, and must avoid offending some sub-group needed … thus any conversation *now* (other than “Turn it to the States”, worded correctly) ends up in trouble.

    See also any conversation about what to do with the current illegal alien population *prior* to sealing the border.

    Mew

  • americanviewpoint

    n/t

  • garfieldjl

    It isn’t exactly that hard to figure out what is needed to be put in without having an individual mandate and covering pre-existing conditions.

    It is fairly simple if you think about it…

    I posted what would be needed in a diary entry:
    http://www.redstate.com/garfieldjl/2012/07/04/skeletal-framework-of-what-i-think-obamacare-should-be-replaced-with/

  • nepanyrush

    Obamacare does not address costs, and actually the costs have gone up astronomically since Obamacare was passed. My own insurance costs became prohibitive in just a couple of years and now I myself don’t have everyone in my family covered as I try to find some option I can afford.

    Most voters are concerned about the costs of their insurance. The GOP needs to hammer the increased costs under Obamacare and how to get the costs down. The GOP should hammer that Obamacare is about the insured paying for the uninsured and socialism and about people needing to make less money to qualify for the exchanges.

  • garfieldjl

    I’ve posted my idea of what should be in the replacement:
    http://www.redstate.com/garfieldjl/2012/07/04/skeletal-framework-of-what-i-think-obamacare-should-be-replaced-with/

    It isn’t exactly hard to come up with something that doesn’t have a mandate and wouldn’t bankrupt insurers, nor would it add anything to the debt.

    Then again, I’m not a politician, and many of them have no common sense.

  • aesthete
  • 10ab

    Extreme partisan politics is only about winning… Not necessarily about what is beneficial to the country.

  • YnotNOW

    Paul Ryan’s budget and his “path to prosperity” proposals address healthcare in a very market-centered and meaningful way:

    http://paulryan.house.gov/Issues/Issue/?IssueID=9978

  • acat

    Therefore, technically, we have to pass the Senate first.

    Romney could be replaced with an autopen and a good text-to-speech program.

    Mew

  • aesthete

    You’d also need a really good toupee in addition to the items you listed above.

  • JSobieski

    You think Congress will pass entitlement reform without strong and consistent presidential leadership?

    One of the reasons why everything is so #*$ up is that Obama is MIA in terms of a domestic agenda.

  • aesthete

    See Bush, George W on SS reform.

  • acat

    The point is that Romney won’t *write* the bill .. so if we (Conservatives) want to influence the writing, the best way is by re-stocking the Senate with spines….

    Speaking of W .. he traded away the domestic agenda he was elected upon for a dodgy foreign policy agenda … politics being the art of the possible, after all.

    Mew

  • PowerToThePeople

    troll

  • Viet71

    Redstate will support Romney because he’s the Republican nominee.

    I’ll support him because I think he’ll be a strong candidate and a strong president.

    Some officer at the battle of Bunker or Breed’s Hill gave the order, “Don’t shoot until you see the whites of their eyes.” Or so the story goes.

    Romney, I believe, is following the same strategy. Woe is Obama following Labor Day.

  • JSobieski

    in support of CCB, which was minscule medicine. Now, with a 2013 agenda to set we argue for far far less from Romney. If we don`t demand more now, we have nobody to blame but ourselves.

  • acat

    and Bush 1.0.

    Those three seemed to want the nomination .. Romney wants the job.

    (no disrespect to W, he wanted the job in 2000, then wanted the new job in 2004)

    Mew

  • acat

    The lack of spines in the Senate is what prevented a shutdown .. a calling of Mr. Obama’s bluff ..

    I have said before and will say again that we *MUST HAVE* a bonfire of conservatives in the Senate to hold Romney’s feet over.

    He will sign what the Senate sends… that is the battleground.

    Mew

  • aesthete

    I’d vastly prefer an unscrupulous scalawag as President who limits his attentions to various floozies and buddies, to a do-gooder who wants to force Americans to get on board his program for their “own good”.

    America is on the whole a worse place because of people who wanted to be President. Hopefully Romney is the type of schmuck who just wants “President” on his tombstone, and not the kind of President who imagines that he can do Big Things on the public dime and at great expense to voluntary society. We’ve had more than enough of that type in Washington. Call me nostalgic, but I miss the old days when people wanted to become President for fairly pedestrian enrichment of their buddies and cronies.

  • acat

    Yeah, I’m concerned about where Romney wants to drive the big machine, after (if) he gets it tuned up….

    I just don’t know if there’s a better alternative… gridlock and four years of constitutional crises with an Obama victory, a GOP controlled house and senate, and the Roberts court …

    Mew

  • aesthete

    is for Romney to get elected with conservatives holding his feet (and the feet of CongressCritters) to the fire, as opposed to browbeating those folks who want to hold feet to fire.

    There will never be a good time for conservatives to start holding Republicans’ feet to the fire. During the election, holding Romney’s feet to the fire gives ammo to the Dems to sink his campaign. After the election, doing so risks Romney losing political support for some idea or other, and undermines the Presidency. Yet, we must hold Romney’s feet to the fire or be left with an Obama lite Presidency. It is unfortunate that we must play a semi-adversarial role lest we end up with the same policies and forward momentum that Obama and Dems have bequeathed us, but that is the world that we live in. It is a fairytale to believe that there will ever be an ideal window in which we can oppose Romney’s finger-in-the-wind politicking and/or bad policy. There is not. We have to build support for our positions, and part of this entails hounding our representatives. I want Romney to succeed on conservatives’ terms, not his own.

  • JSobieski

    Every President in my life time has had problems handling the Senate. Even when Reagan had an R Sentate in 81, he had plenty of problems with the Senate.

    Part of becoming a Senator is having one’s spine surgically removed. There are few exceptions to that rule.

    If you want a Senate to stand up for something, you need to have a President with a mandate on that issue.

    So we get back to the bitter truth—either Romney builds a mandate for something, or nothing really significant will happen.

  • JSobieski

    The President by default becomes the political center of his gravity for his party. The odds of moving the Senate (hurding cats) to be more conservative than a position staked out by President Romney is very low.

    Sure, it happens on an issue or two (immigration, Justice Harriet), but that was only after years of the opposite.

    Romney is the person who needs to be pushed. Romney needs to be pushed to push the others.

    Holding the Senate to the fire will require holding Romney to the fire, and with sufficient enthusiasm that he helps with the Senate.

  • checkmate2012

    and given both chambers will do productive things for the country. He’s a proven leader that gets results. He just doesn’t toot his own horn. He’s reserved and humble IMO but that doesn’t make him incompetent. Heck, the Senate may bristle regardless of party majority since it’s been so long since they’ve had a leader (house too).

    I think aesthete and acat are being too pessimistic about Romney setting an agenda for 2013. Releasing the private sector by eliminating regulations is the biggest positive action beyond repealing O’care that he can take. And fixing the tax code.

    I do wish he’d reduce his 59 point plan to a 5 point plan….soon.

  • westcoastpatriette

    behind the scenes will be refreshing after four years of an in-your-face-every-single-day-telling-us-how-evil-we-are egomaniac. Can’t wait.

    I knew there would come a day when I would embrace Romney. :)

  • checkmate2012

    said before. It’s exactly what we need right now. Someone who respects the Office and actually rolls up their sleeves to do real work.

    O reportly goes the Oval office around 9:30 or 10:00, stays a couple hours, has lunch, then gets on AF One and stumps/fundraises with no tie and rolled up sleeves…disgusting. I’m sick of his face. In other words, he doesn’t know what work really is!

  • acat

    The President may call the agenda, but – as you say – the Senate can block him…. It’s rare, but it does happen.

    I don’t see, however, why pushing both is a problem…. and it’s a good bit easier to replace a Senator than a President … or in this case, a Presidential Nominee.

    Mew

  • aesthete

    This:

    “Romney is the person who needs to be pushed. Romney needs to be pushed to push the others.”

    …is my point.

    Maybe you meant to reply to acat.

  • checkmate2012

    to be pushed but needs to set the agenda. He won’t rule by imperalism like O but I’m sure he will listen to both Chambers.

    You don’t get to where he is by being pushed around. You propose, listen, adjust accordingly and then lead the way. That is exactly what I expect Romney to do as president.

    Obama let the radical animals loose and they ran like banshee’s throughout all of gov’t and stomped on the Constitution. He can’t control them if he wanted too. They control him.

    Romney won’t let that happen. .

  • JSobieski

    nt

  • JSobieski

    CCB for all of its limitations was at least something.

    The point of all my comments is that Romney is running a relatively substance free campaign. He needs to build a mandate, but I don`t see it.

  • JSobieski

    Even in the ’94 Revolution, the Senate was the weak link.

  • JSobieski

    to the public if anything good is to happen in 2013. So far its crickets

  • aesthete

    the fish rots at the head.

    I saw what happened in MA under Romney’s “leadership” — it hasn’t inclined me to give Romney a free hand with the rest of the country.

  • westcoastpatriette

    remember, Romney likes to fire people. He’ll have plenty of work to do in that regard, too. :)

  • zachv

    Is fundraising, prepping for the debate and in the midst of the veepstakes. They’re doing little to no active campaigning and running very few ads right now.

  • checkmate2012

    more than once. I marked my calendar on April 3rd, “Romney turned the corner” when Romney gave an awesome speech about O is a big gov’t guy and he’s for private sector, free-market principles. I was ecstatic that day thinking he got it.

    The problem in a nutshell I think, is what w’coast and I just described. O and the MSM is in our face 24 hours a day. It’s hard to hear Romney’s voice and they don’t give him airtime on his stump speeches like O.

    I could’t tell you what all R said on his bus tour but I can tell you what O said last week. That’s the problem. Not enough airtime. But Romney IS saying the right capitalism ideas.

  • commonsenseobserver

    Obama: the private sector is doing fine
    Unemployment, wages, prices, debt, deficit.
    Obama’s solution: 17 dfferent taxes in Obamacare, costing each family almost $2000, red tape, half a billion in new spending, blocking American energy.
    Romney’s alternative: cut taxes for working families, small business and job creators, root out waste to balance the books, preserve and strengthen Medicare and Social Security, reform the tax code, deliver healthcare choice to seniors and families.
    Romney has some good “big ideas” like “more jobs, less debt” which could summarize our entire economic plan.

    And point out how Obama is negative and distracting, with Mitt himself defending his experience and talking frankly, even if briefly, about his plan. End with “when you don’t have a record to run on, you paint your opponent as someone you should run from”, from Obama.

  • JSobieski

    Whether or not Romney has a specific plan at this point, if he doesn’t at least try to start selling entitlement reform and how capitalism works, his campaign in the fall won’t be impressive in any way.

    As we all know, default culture and MSM in particular are liberal. Each and every day capitalism is attacked and market-based reforms besmirched/ignored.

    If Romney is serious about some type of market-based Medicare reform, he will need to start selling it now and continue to do so through November.

    Otherwise it will go the way of SS reform under Bush . . . assuming Romney even wins.

  • checkmate2012

    en masse before the election. We’ve seen more and more jump ship. Firing is a good thing when someone is incompetent and we’ll all get pleasure from Witch Sebelius and Nappy Napolitano & Sustein among others :)

  • commonsenseobserver

    Obama wants to build an entitlement, government centered society, Mitt Romney believes in the American people and wants to create opportunity.

  • checkmate2012

    I’ve heard but it’s hard to hear for the MSM clutter.

  • aesthete

    That one can construe anything out of those defenses of the free market. Unfortunately, vaguely positive statements about the free market do not good policy make. Romney has supported TARP, auto bailouts, and any number of government interventions in the free market (to say nothing of healthcare reform in MA and everything else). I expect a lot of “I loved the free market so much that I had to save it” type rhetoric from Romney — which will not make it OK when he does move away from market solutions.

    There are some nice things about Romney and his candidacy. To wit, he is 1) very focused on the economy and not getting sidetracked by other issues, 2) he’s been successful in the private sector and appears to have enjoyed his time there, and 3) he’s a hard worker and seems like he has his life together. Unfortunately, those three characteristics could also apply to any number of people who were failures as President: Herbert Hoover comes to mind.

    Ironically, it takes much more central planning and aforethought for Republicans to propose and implement market reforms. It’s very easy to throw money at people and groups that could make your re-election very easy or very hard, and who have such wonderful powerpoints and flowcharts to go along with their high-minded ideals. DC trends fairly stupid as far as technical knowledge and analysis goes (and there’s no incentive to change that), so the tendency is to defer to a cadre of do-gooders allied with special interests.

    Romney needs to get out ahead and talk about what he wants to do as President — not because it will make election easier for him (it won’t), but because his election will be an empty victory if it leads to more deference to Washington thinking and expansion. Because it won’t make his re-election easier (and his electoral experience is in MA, remember that), he won’t do it without some prodding, which would indicate to him that 1) some constituency out there has his back when he goes out to talk about these things in detail, and that 2) this constituency can potentially be lost or demotivated if he doesn’t talk about these things. Who knows — perhaps Romney is a free-market guy like us, but he’s running his campaign the way he is because he thinks he doesn’t have support to run it any other way? In any case, the only way we’ll get action out of him is if we push — and one of the few ways to get positive market-oriented action going is to have a pliant President coupled with a legislative Congressional agenda which motivates conservatives and doesn’t anger independents, a la Contract with America. All of this implies that we should support *and push* Romney, and not simply expect him to do the heavy lifting when the heavens clear and it is suddenly politically popular to recommend specific plans to get us out of the ditch.

  • checkmate2012

    did a darn good job in a Dem state like MA with dems in both branches. R’care was a stab at a solution to rising costs which in any state, can’t truly be reformed due to fed regulations. Seems the dems have twisted it now that he’s gone, way beyond what he implemented…not his fault. He tried with the tools he had. How many other states have tried real reform? None that I can think of so it was a bold move, and we’ll agree it was not good result in the end.

    Lastly, do you realize the Republican Primary official ended 12 days ago, with Utah on 6/26? The speech below was just 3 months ago! TX had it’s primary on 5/31, less than 2 months ago. Romney deserves some time to come out swinging after the Primary.

    From http://historymusings.wordpress.com/2012/04/03/full-text-campaign-buzz-april-3-2012-mitt-romney-speech-after-winning-wisconsin-maryland-washington-dc-primary-trio-transcript/

    “The President has pledged to

  • checkmate2012

    n/t

  • JSobieski

    The point is to build a mandate for SOMETHING.

  • checkmate2012

    necessary. What did people write here: we need to control the meme? A vision is necessary to the public at large which is how the liar in chief won. Not on substance but a vision.

    Many prez win on that and I agree that we need a hard core agenda. But an overall agenda wins as the masses don’t digest 1-5. They get a “feeling” of yeah he can lead or no he can’t and don’t pay attention like us political junkies.

    BTW, did you read the whole speech? It tugged at my heart strings in the deepest patriotic way.

  • gekster

    Thr MSM doesn’t report it, so to him it isn’t there. ;)

  • checkmate2012

    is needed here. That told me his character and set the stage. Like I said, the Primary officially ended 12 days and even that speech was 3 months ago. My, how time flies!

    I think he should give that speech again after all we’ve seen lately. Notice he doesn’t need a tele-prompter! It comes from the heart.

  • JSobieski

    Bye

  • JSobieski

    Look at social security reform under Bush. Look at budget issues under anyone.

    Good speeches are at the bottom of my list

  • aesthete

    I thought it was half-good.

    You should listen to one of Pres Reagan’s speeches — they had not only the visionary component which you note, but also *tied* this component to a specific policy or direction which was to be implemented — i.e., Reagan’s speeches on government welfare were not merely abstractified glorification of work or freedom from government assistance, but were also tied to his specific policy preference of welfare reform, buttressed with the numbers and the case necessary to win over the public.

    Romney is no Reagan. But he can be better than he is right now.

  • checkmate2012

    Romney is not in charge yet. I guess we see elections differently in that Romney can set a vision, goals, agenda, etc. But he can not set mandates in place now as a candidate.

    O can and has set out mandates and because he’s a loser of a leader, everyone including Dems laugh at his mandates: “pass this now” and “a do nothing Congress” and “we’d have 2 million more workers if they would pass my jobs bill” and pass my ridiculous budget that got not one vote!

    Mandates are worthless unless you are a leader. Romney would look like a king wanna be if he stood on the stump and said I want this that or the other thing. That’s not a way to win an election.

  • gekster

    So your reply is non-responsive.
    And tell us what you have to say about the speach.
    What are your thoughts on it.
    Your complaining he doesn’t say what you want him to say,
    and that speach alone proves you wrong.

    Oh well. ;)

  • JSobieski

    A mandate for entitlement reform and budget cuts will require advocacy on those points. W spoke more about SS in 2004 than Romney has about Medicare in 2012.

  • JSobieski

    How are you different than a lib in 2008?

  • JSobieski

    Silly me….I thought campaigns were about ideas

  • JSobieski

    Obama’s failures should not be used to excuse our own. Why not build public support for our solutions?

  • gekster

    And it is from three months ago, so all of your belly acheing is for not.
    You just like the dark cloud over your head.
    Does it make you feel good to be a half empty guy.

  • checkmate2012

    setting the table for the main course. I’m not an expert here but think that he should get more specific on some issues like O’care especially. But I will keep in mind, and hope others do, that if he says he’ll reform SS and MC, then there will be hell to pay. Look at what happened to Paul Ryan! Do we want him to lose the unhappy former O voters that are coming to our side?

    In the end or rather now, he needs to make a moral case for capitalism, which will still be too vague for your tastes I know. If he does that, he’ll win over hearts and minds.

    But firm absolutes right now will now win the WH and may turn off the masses. Once he’s in, he can mandate conservative principles.

  • gekster

    Wahhh.

  • checkmate2012

    already going to vote for Romney! That’s your answer. It’s those on the fence R needs to win over to reach the electoral.

  • aesthete

    Wanna hear it?

    I’ll tell her things that will make her laugh.

    I will make sure she falls in love with me.

    I will follow up by finding an engagement ring and getting Salma Hayek to agree to marry me.

    Unlike my predecessors, I believe in making Salma Hayek happy and keeping her happy. I understand the challenges involved with making Salma Hayek happy.

    Sounds like a good plan, no? Almost Romneyesque in its vagueness and lack of details.

  • JSobieski

    Did you feel good in 2010 when the R’s rolled over on the debt ceiling?

    Do you judge politicians by their intentions or by their results?

    The definition of insanity is expecting different results from doing the same things.

    Glass half full? The country is on the verge of irreversible transformation and you want people to become content over a SPEECH?

    Hey guys this time will be different because Romney gave a SPEECH?

    LOL. If things don’t change, 2013 will be a repeat of 2010 and you and others will be asking “how did this happen”?

    This has nothing to do with what I want—it has to do with making something happen that has NEVER happened in my 41 year lifetime.

  • aesthete

    Isn’t running on ethereals only to implement a plan that the public has not heard on the campaign trail exactly what Obama did?

    It worked for Obama (sort of) because the “do something” mentality is so pervasive in Washington, and because it’s easier to establish a new program or otherwise expand government than it is to shrink it. Romney can’t do the same thing and hope to succeed. That is why he needs to be pressed for details in the near future rather than at the end of his campaign (if ever). I don’t want to have to look back at a Romney Presidency in the same way that I look at his Governorship of MA. How conservatives engage Romney has a lot to do with whether we will be satisfied or disappointed with his performance in office.

  • Melody Warbington (rwm52)

    When the Dems said it was a clear mandate after Obama won, what do you think they meant? I think they meant that the people wanted him to do everything he campaigned on. End the war, close GITMO, healthcare, etc.

    Likewise, I agree with JSob and aesthete that Romney had better start convincing the American people that he has something more than he believes in America. It’s not that I doubt that or, as you said, that Romney gets it with regard to capitalism.

    You quote him as saying, “I will spend the next four years rebuilding the foundation of our Opportunity Society, led by free people and free enterprises.” What exactly does that mean?

    I know a lot of folks here weren’t fans of Herman Cain and his 999 plan, but he at least had folks talking about reforming the tax code. If I’m going to go out and convince others to vote GOP, I need more than Romney isn’t Obama. I need specifics.

    I’ll go to another candidate. Newt proposed that if he campaigned for any candidate down the ticket, that candidate would first have to promise they would sponsor and vote for a bill to repeal Obamacare. That’s a mandate. Newt also had a Day One Plan that set out specific things he would do.

    To be honest, I haven’t spent much time on Romney’s website until tonight when I read his plans here. I don’t like everything he says (his tax plan for example), but all of it is better than Obama. I’ve heard Mitt say repeal and replace Obamacare, but I had no idea what he would replace it with until I looked at his website. That’s something the average voter is not going to do. Mitt and his supporters are going to have to tell them.

    I hope to hear those kind of specifics on the campaign trail, and I’d like to see him take a page from Newt’s book and get every candidate running for office to promise to sponsor legislation covering what he outlined.

  • gekster

    Just one thing
    Who is Salma Hayek.

  • checkmate2012

    whose opinion I valued. Tonight’s comments have me wondering for the worse, sadly.

  • checkmate2012

    be it Left or Right, everyone wants Romney to be absolute. He’s damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t. Why isn’t O held to the same standards? We know the MSM answer.

    I am baffled by statements like you said (and others), we must know more about Romney; we want exact details on how he would run this country: “Romney can

  • aesthete

    Getting elected.

    He has completely failed at everything else (especially governing), even by a progressive standard.

    Why? Because the public is not inclined to simply get on board with whatever agenda one wishes to impose on them. Why is Obama’s approval rating in the toilet? Why did his party perform so poorly in the midterms? Why, despite a majority larger than any political party has had in ~80 years, did he get so little passed legislatively? Why are there so few areas where Obama is rated well? Why is his base so dissatisfied with his performance? There are many answers to these questions, but the short story is that he came out of the blue with several policy positions which didn’t line up with his rhetoric, and that he decided to shovel policy after policy down America’s gullet. Even if Romney were inclined to give us everything we wanted, the American public is not — which is why we need to do one of two things (preferably both):

    1) Educate them on the debt and the economy, and recommend policies to help both of these things.

    2) Construct policies which align the public will with conservative thought, and support it heavily.

    Neither of these is a guaranteed vote-getter (though done right, they can be slight positives). Both are vital for effective governance once one attains political office.

  • checkmate2012

    and I’m proud of it. Times have changed when speeches were listened to by most…not so much today.

  • aesthete

    but c’mon: I’ve defended Romney in the past from plenty of dumb attacks on his Bain record (which I admire), his religion (which shouldn’t be a factor), and a whole raft of issues. Evaluate the situation honestly: is Romney being terribly specific in the speech which you highlight? I agree that it has good principles (capitalism, opportunity, etc), but that isn’t enough. I’ve said the same thing about plenty of other politicians (like Sarah Palin), and that didn’t make me many friends, either — but at some point we have to stop, step back, and ask what folks like Romney are actually going to *do* when they are in office, rather than what endpoint they envision. Endpoints are nice, but when they are overly abstractified or offered up as a final product or means on which to evaluate, they are a hindrance rather than a help.

    What makes you more confident in the success of an enterprise — a solid business plan, or enthusiasm about how the enterprise is going to make a difference without explanation of the business’ fundamentals to investors? I merely think that politicians were held to the same standard as a small business looking for a loan.

  • gekster

    Lets not pre guess what is right or wrong with what Romney is doing,
    but lets wait until when people are actualy paying attention as to what Romney says he will do.
    Late August is when people will start to look at what’s happening,
    and we will see what he says then.
    Till then, nothing matters,
    and I think Romney will keep his powder dry.
    Quit crying about what he isn’t doing until then.

  • checkmate2012

    After one attains office, but not before. We agree on what we want after R takes office and I believe he will be more specific after Labor Day.

    But he won’t win if he takes a hard line now. We are already on the Right side of the aisle, but he needs the middle and maybe some on the fringe left to win.

  • checkmate2012

    voters didn’t vote for him for those few items. It was an anomoly of elections like we’ll never see again. Yes the 1st black, but moreso was the Bush fatigue. And if you’re right that the folks voted for him to do A-Z, he’s failed miserably yet his poll numbers are remarkably high for a someone who promised but didn’t deliver said mandates.

    I’m a bit surprised at your ? regarding Romney’s statement of an “Opportunity Society” vs Big Gov’t. Are you suggesting that it’s a disguise for “hope and change”? He has made his wealth in the free market so I tend to take his word on creating the same environment ffor others.

    Romney also has stated his day one and 100 day plans, like Newt. And no offense, but for Newt to say he’d make everyone promise to uphold his vision…well that didn’t work out so well for Newt (I was a supporter of his at one time).

    Like I told JSob, if Romney wants to win, he needs the masses, not us on RS and to do that, he needs to lay our a vision and not specifics on SS or Medicare. O’care- yes indeed!

  • acat

    (avoiding as much political broken glass as possible)

    Clearly, a discussion of tax reform is now possible, where before it wasn’t. I fully expect Romney to, now that he’s acknowledged Obamacare is a TAX, pursue some form of tax reform.

    I would wager wonks in the Romney campaign are trying to figure out just what that should look like before it goes up on the web site… and it will hit the web site before it hits the speechifying.

    It’s a very nice link to “the economy”, something Romney is already running on, and it’ll get some of the “FAIRTAX” folks into the tent if it’s a reasonably good proposal.

    Mew

  • Melody Warbington (rwm52)

    Things didn’t work out very well for any of the candidates I supported before Romney. The difference in the speeches I heard from Newt and those from Romney are specifics.

    I’m not questioning Romney’s “opportunity society,” but I’d like to hear him explain to those who can’t get a job exactly how he would free the private sector to create those opportunities. Parrot what’s on his website if he likes – cut the red tape and regulations and get the government out of the way.

    You’re wrong to think Romney needs to win the masses and not worry about those of us on RS and those like us elsewhere. He’s going to need every vote he can get, and he’s going to need people like us to help him get them. If we’re not enthused or convinced, we sure won’t be able to convince others. Moreover, if we do not get him on record with regard to conservative principles, I fear he will govern from the center or left of center. That’s based on the history of elected officials. Can you name one politician who, once elected, moved further right and stayed there? It’s the rare exception and not the norm by any means.

  • checkmate2012

    that gov’t is in the way. We all know the answers are in the private sector. I’m thinking after tonites comments, Romeny needs to play professor and give a 5 point speech every week on how capitalism is in the best interest of all, including job creation. I still think it’s a moral argument too that will resonate with the folks about now.

    I agree that he needs enthusiastic support to GOTV from conservatives like you, and needs all the support he can get. I still contend that he needs to win over the squishy middle and I don’t fear whatsoever that he’ll govern from the left of center. I actually think he’s more to the right than most think but that’s my opinion.

    The only prez I can think of that governed more to the right was Clinton (2nd term), because he was a realist and Newt made him! He would have lost if he didn’t pivot, unlike O who has doubled down on the far left.

  • JSobieski

    structural reforms will never happen.

    The only way to push through dramatic reforms is to make them the basis of your campaign.

    Your approach has been followed by every Presidential campaign in my lifetime—some have won, some have lost, but conservative rollback almost never happens.

    This leads us to the need for a meaningful victory, not just a victory.

  • JSobieski

    Gekster in 2013 “wahh we are not getting the budget cuts that we need”

    At some point you need to ask the question why? Or you can continue with your insults to me—-which at this point are just as likely as the Romney campaign to result in true structural reforms.

    Some people actually want to achieve conservative policies. Not sure what your goals are, but insulting me is probably a poor way to achieve them.

  • JSobieski

    turning off one’s tongue and one’s mind in response to a good speech is clearly working. Lets keep up the good work! Wouldn’t want to be called an Eeyore or to have someone imply that you aren’t a team player? After all, that stuff is far more important that actually having results.

    /sarcasm off

  • gekster

    The speech addressed what you were whinning about.
    But go ahead and deflect from the conversation.

  • gekster

    Your ‘were’ saying Romney is not addressing the issues.
    You ‘were not’ saying anything about cutting budgets.
    Roney’s speech is addressing what you were complaining about.

    Good comeback.
    Lefty tactic, change the subject when proven wrong.
    No sense in continuing this thread.

  • JSobieski

    You have different goals? Fine, just don’t whine to me after it is too late to do something about it.

    You were so disappointed in 2010, but refuse to even ask why 2013 will be different?

    Ask yourself why W couldn’t get SS reform done?

  • gekster

    YOU were complaining Romney was not addredding certain things.
    It was posted to YOU that he was.
    A speech was provided to YOU that showed he was addressing the issues YOU were concerned about at least three months ago.
    It was also posted to YOU that the MSM is not covering anything that Romney is saying in his speeches,
    to convince people like YOU he has no message.
    Instaed of accepting that, YOU changed it to a budget thing.

    When YOU do things like that, it’s called moving the goalposts.
    YOU can now talk yourself blue in the face, I am out of this thread.

  • commonsenseobserver

    But I think Ace of Spades has a good idea;
    “Do a series of three one-hour videos explaining basic economics, and your plan. Release it with much fanfare. Make sure it

  • commonsenseobserver

    And get it directly to Americans. Some seem to be saying that Romney should hold back from his agenda because it will be controversial, but since he’s already mentioning it in speeches, we can expect the media to ignore the good parts and attack the more controversial points. To prevent that we have to emphasise the popular parts and defend the controversial ones openly, through ads, op-eds in papers, direct mail etc.

  • JSobieski

    I am not interested in campaigns as beauty pageants.

    I am interested in campaigns as tools to implement conservative change.

    If you could get out of the DC talking head compaign minutia mode of thinking and focus on the big picture, you would understand the context in which I write.

    Until then—–feel free to keep getting excited over a speech while the country descends into the abyss

  • tnguy

    ….but there are so many responses to responses that each line only has a few words.

    Is there a way to change my settings?

  • commonsenseobserver

    Which I understand.

    But op-eds on the widest-circulating papers could be a good way to reach out and let people know about Romney’s plans. It’ll reassure people to know that he has plans, even if they don’t actually read them in detail. Get the big ideas and main policies out, and back them with solid, substantive policies which interested people can easily access and which can be spread easily.

  • acat

    They want to know that “there is a plan” .. they don’t really want to read and understand it. The parallel is that many more people want to say they’ve read War and Peace than actually want to do the work of reading it.

    I submit that Romney has put a good bit of information on his campaign web site for the subset who actually want to do the reading, and has mentioned that it’s there so those who want to know of the plan without knowing the plan can also be happy.

    I don’t particularly like this, but .. I’ve accepted that the American people are a lot like sheep .. they don’t choose to become any more educated than necessary.

    Mew

  • commonsenseobserver

    I haven’t heard him telling supporters to visit his website for plans, frankly.

    Maybe the next time he does a positive, “Day One” sort ad, he should explicitly direct viewers to his issues page to “read more about Mitt’s plans to restore America’s promise”.

  • JSobieski

    why even bother being interested in politics. If what you say is true, then conservative reform isn’t possible.

    Conservatism is too hard to be implemented by sheep. The Senate will never be more conservative than the American people.

    In any case, knowing that there is a plan has to involve more than saying “look at my website”. The plan needs to be explained and sold if it is to be implemented. Otherwise, the Senate will at best triangulate and at worst completely cave.

    SS reform never even made it to the floor of either house for a vote.

  • acat

    Sarah. Palin.

    Mew

  • acat

    these things end when the words get too small.

    Mew

  • commonsenseobserver

    If not, they ought to bring it up again.

    And they ought to get out the facts on Romney’s record, which are just as important as his policies. When the time is right.

  • acat

    to hold Romney to a conservative path.. an argument you’ve ignored in the face of the successes of Mike Lee, Rand Paul, and Marco Rubio .. and soon-to-be success of Mourdock…

    Yes, the President is the front man, but I dispute your assertion that the Senate only produces good legislation because the President demands it. The silliness of that assertion derails the rest of your argument.

    Mew

  • JSobieski

    I think it works the opposite way. The bully pulpit of the presidency has no equivalent in the Senate, and the Senate is institutionally filled with squishes anyway.

  • acat

    so a Senate with Conservatives pulls Romney to the right.

    The Senate is traditionally filled with squishes, but we’ve already got a leavening of conservatives, DeMint is poised to take over a key committee (see diary yesterday or today) and 2012 should be a good year in terms of electing conservatives.

    In short, I both expect the Senate can nudge Romney toward the right, and that it’s premature for Romney to start doing “the vision thing”. Right now, the campaign is setting the meme base that they’ll build on.

    I expect that to change after GOPCON.

    Mew

  • JSobieski

    to strong arm 60 or even 51 Senators.

    The current crop of GOP Senators is far more squishy than you acknowledge, and most of them are not up for re-election in 2012.

    If someone wants to sound credible on an impending threat of debt, it isn’t something they can just pick up in September.

  • acat

    so did the GOP primary. The twelve little conservatives were defeated in detail by Romney, eh?

    Anyway, back to Sun Tzu. Fighting in a narrow place is ideal if your force is smaller … but polling consistently shows that Conservatives outnumber Liberals in the U.S.

    Why, then, are we continually sliding to the left as a country?

    Because D.C. is a “narrow place”! We *can’t* bring our numbers to bear in D.C..

    Look at the abortion fight; most of the successes have *not* been in D.C., they’ve been at the State and Local level, where our numbers *matter*.

    Yes, *historically* the Senate has been filled with squishes – but that’s *historically* been true of both parties, and largely due to the bulk of Senate history being prior to the adoption thereof. (124 years vs. 99)

    The Dems have discovered that direct election, in Blue and Purple States, can let them pack the place with non-squishy ideologues like Feinstein… we must do the same with Rubios and Lees and DeMints.

    In short, “tradition” and “history” are great .. but the times have changed.

    No, I don’t expect the Senate to have a “mandate” .. unless they adopt something like the CWA, which seems unlikely.

    I do expect that it’ll be harder for us to swing the Senate toward conservatism than it proved to be to nominate a conservative…. but I also don’t see a whole lot of other options.

    Mew

  • acat

    Yes, *historically* the Senate has been filled with squishes

  • aesthete

    requires structural reform of entitlements. Given that many people who vote derive a significant portion of their income from SS and Medicare (and, to a lesser extent, Medicaid), and that many more are planning on these programs for retirement, we can’t simply expect a plan to materialize such that voters will be on board. The smattering of conservatives in the Senate is good, but far from sufficient. How many Senators do you think back a reform agenda? 10? 15? I’d be surprised if it were that many. So what makes you think that an inertia-prone body will suddenly start pushing Romney to perform better?

  • acat

    How do you plan to hold Romney firmly over the fire?

    Mew

  • aesthete

    stuff like this helps:

    http://www.redstate.com/erick/2012/07/09/if-not-now/

    Continuing to take over the party apparatus, and pushing for party planks regarding entitlement reform, would help.

    Voting for like-minded candidates is always a plus.

    Going to Romney at a campaign event and letting him know that you are in favor is helpful.

    None of these things is, on its own, going to change anything — but neither is your preferred strategy (which is to… elect Senators, I guess? Nothing wrong with that and I support it in addition to what I said, but that’s a very limited strategy). At any rate, I see it as a much better call than doing what we’ve always done, which is to simply sit around praising our wonderful candidate uncritically, and beating down anyone who raises a contrary opinion. How we as conservatives engage Romney matters. To some extent, an adversarial relationship will be required to extract concessions out of the Republican party. Simply working to elect whatever party hack is sent our way isn’t sufficient and isn’t helpful.

  • aesthete

    Romney is currently planning a foreign policy trip during the summer, in part as a response to Kristol and some others criticizing the lack of substance on foreign policy. It is not impossible to get something more substantive from him on domestic policy, as well.

  • acat

    My point is not that electing senators should happen alone.

    I have, evidently, not been clear enough on that.

    Further, I believe that the impact of electing, say, Ron Johnson or Mike Lee instead of Tommy Thompson or Bob Bennett has a greater long-term positive influence than is seen just in turning Romney.

    Again, Romney will sign what gets sent .. so while we can hope to influence the Senate via Romney .. we should also hope to influence Romney via the Senate, eh?

    Mew

  • aesthete

    when someone (you? I don’t honestly remember and I’m too lazy to look) said that Romney should not be talking about these issues at all, that it would be disastrous, that we have to wait until after the election, etc.

    I am all in favor of electing good Senators, but it just isn’t enough. If even 10% of the Senate right now is in favor of reform,, I would be surprised. If any more than 15% is in favor of reform in 2012, I will be flabbergasted. 15% is not enough for any sort of leadership, much less leadership in a direction contrary to the inertia of what’s been happening for the last 80 years.

    Do you think that Romney should keep mum on any and all details about anything until either a) shortly before the election happens or b) after the election happens? Because that’s the position I’m arguing against, not whether or not it’s also important to elect Congressional candidates who align with our views.

  • acat

    To sum up – the time for the conversation is, IMO, not now.

    Starting now offers an array of wedges to the Dems.

    GOPCON is closer to right, and provides a much louder megaphone.

    Romney will sign what’s sent to him, so we’ll get more bang-for-buck working that angle .. even though it’s a harder angle to work. *

    As to your ratios, do you think we’d get a better bill with Grayson, Bennett and Lugar, or Paul, Lee and Mourdock?

    Mew

    *we’ve already failed at the easier angle, being the Stupid Party, by arguing over which of the twelve little conservatives should be the standard-bearer while Romney plowed right through the field….

  • JSobieski

    DeMint would not agree with relying on the Senate for leadership….and neither would PaulDe