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Same-Sex Marriage: Nobody’s Listening

The same-sex marriage debate is a frustrating one for me for a wide variety of reasons.  One of the reasons has to do with the people who get highlighted the most on both sides of the debate.  On the right, you have a minority of people who view all homosexuals as evil sinners who are doomed to burn in Hell and require “saving”.  On the left, you have a bunch of people who think that everyone who disagrees with them is a religious zealot, since there is obviously no intellectual argument to be made against their point of view.

Well, I disagree on both counts.  Neither side seems to listen to the other, which is a shame because there’s a perfectly good compromise right there to be seen.  Both sides fight, and neither seems to recognize that what each side wants isn’t mutually exclusive with what the other wants.

I’ll start by summing up my viewpoint, then going into further detail.  Basically, I am for civil unions and against same-sex marriage, but the real problem is that we need to define the terms “marriage” and “civil union” with a standard and proper definition.

The crux of the matter boils down to how one views marriage.  Is marriage…

  • …a legal construct?
  • …a societal construct?
  • …a religious construct?

The truth, of course, is that it is some combination of all three.  For the purposes of my explanation, however, I’m going to bypass the religious aspect of this.  Two reasons for this:  a) Most of what can be said from the religious angle also applies to the societal angle, and b) Very few people view marriage as strictly a religious thing, and those who do aren’t going to be convinced by anything I’m going to say here.  There will be one side who says, “The <insert holy book here> says homosexuality is wrong, therefore…,” and the other side who says, “Religious people are morons, therefore…”  It’s not useful to argue with that audience.  So I’m going to focus on the legal and societal aspects here.

Let’s start from the beginning.  Look at the history of marriage and its foundations.  What was its original purpose?  Quite simply, it was a societal construct designed to set the foundation for two people to start a family.  It did have some legal ramifications, but it’s purpose was primarily societal.  A society does not need to recognize that two people love each other.  It does, however, need to recognize where the children are going to come from and who is going to be expected to take care of them.

From this perspective, the notion that marriage is an institution that has discriminated against gays from its inception is simply untrue.  The societal construct that is marriage simply has no meaning in the context of a same-sex relationship, because they cannot procreate.  That’s not religious homophobes discriminating against them, it’s just biology.

With the advent of adoption and artificial insemination over the years, many in the gay community feel this argument has been blunted somewhat, but I disagree.  Neither of these requires marriage, nor do they even require two people. Nor do either of these change the fact that two people of the same gender still cannot get together and create a third person that is part each of them.  It’s still a very special thing, and still the way most children come into this world.  More importantly, it is the centerpiece of what “marriage” really is.  I’m not against adoption of anyone by anyone, but it doesn’t significantly alter the argument.  The societal construct of marriage still doesn’t mean anything for a same-sex couple.

But what about the legal aspect?

It cannot be denied that over the years, marriage has developed great legal significance.  Tax laws, inheritances, insurance coverage, and many other aspects of life revolve around marriage now in ways that they didn’t even a couple hundred years ago.  And from this point of view, there is no difference between how these would affect a same-sex couple versus an opposite-sex one.  This is what the pro-gay marriage crowd is primarily fighting for.

So we’ve got one side that wants certain legal rights while the other wants to preserve the societal meaning of a millennia-old social construct.  These are not mutually exclusive goals.  There is a way we can give same-sex couples the same legal benefits that opposite-sex couples enjoy while still recognizing the societal difference.  That’s where the term “civil union” comes in.

The biggest problem with the term “civil union”, however, is that its definition is extremely nebulous and varies from one person to another and one state to another.  Part of the reason that same-sex couples in California are not satisfied with civil unions as opposed to marriage and are fighting it in court is that they are not legally equivalent.  They do still have something to gain by getting access to “marriage”, though the voters of California have rejected this.

What we need, therefore, is to define a standard for what a “civil union” should be, and explain why it is different from marriage.  Based on the descriptions above, the breakdown is fairly obvious:  Make civil unions a full legal equivalent to marriage, but with the recognition that a civil union is not societally equivalent, precisely because it cannot be.  Attempting to make a same-sex “marriage” equivalent to an opposite-sex one requires stripping away a very important component of what marriage is – one that is only relevant to an opposite-sex couple — which is the real reason so many people fight it.  This compromise preserves the societal significance of marriage while granting the same legal status to a same-sex couple.

Many of the same-sex community would still oppose this, but at that point, they would really be arguing over semantics.  Getting “marriage” over a “civil union” wouldn’t change anything for them other than making them feel better, their quixotic quest for universal acceptance be damned.  They would be better off realizing that shoving their views down our throats via activist judges and autocratic mayors hurts their cause much more in the long run than accepting a reasonable compromise such as this.

(As an aside specific to the NY Senate vote: while I do disagree with it, I’m not as bothered by it because this is how it is supposed to be done.  I’m very opposed to judges and others with authority circumventing the rules of our society to impose their will, but if the elected representatives of a state pass a law, then they will either meet with the approval of the people or have to face the music at the ballot box, which is how it should be.  Much of the reason that the Constitutional Amendment debates are happening right now is not so much in opposition to same-sex couples’ rights as much as it is in opposition to judicial activism — in short, the people are saying, “We’ll decide when we want this to happen, thank you.”)

Of course, the hardcore anti-homosexual crowd would oppose this, too, but that group is simply going to have to accept that homosexuality isn’t going anywhere, and whether or not they are going to Hell is their problem, not anyone else’s.

So to sum it up, we need to recognize that marriage is both a legal and societal construct, and recognize the significance of both.  Same-sex couples should have a means to access the legal aspects of marriage via civil unions, but should also accept the societal irrelevance of marriage to them and leave that part alone.

Of course, your mileage may vary.

 

COMMENTS

  • YnotNOW

    are seeking societal APPROVAL of their actions. Nothing less will do. And they want the power of the law (complaint of civil rights discrimination) to apply against anyone that disapproves.

    So your compromise will not stand. See for example the California civil unions bill, and how that led SUPPPORT to gay marriage arguments, not an alternative.

  • Doc Holliday

    on this site years ago, so I was not wrong :)

    I said it as an idea, I am not “married” to it.

    • Doc Holliday

      .

  • YnotNOW

    are seeking societal APPROVAL of their actions. Nothing less will do. And they want the power of the law (complaint of civil rights discrimination) to apply against anyone that disapproves.

    So your compromise will not stand. See for example the California civil unions bill, and how that led SUPPPORT to gay marriage arguments, not an alternative.

  • qsclues

    Your point (which I agree with to some degree) points out the ultimate paradox that the gay rights group has, which is also the same problem feminism has: their goal is being treated as equals, but the problem is that they are not equal. (Note that “inferior” and”not equal” are different concepts.)

    The legal rights (which they do seek, even though approval is also sought) is actually an attainable goal, unlike the universal acceptance goal. The problem, of course, is getting that side to recognize this.

  • jeffreywturner

    In the pre-chrsitian era, marriage really was primarily about the merging of two families to creating an heir (a son) to carry on the family name and be an heir to the estate.

    The idea that we in the West have of marriage today (ie: romantic love, emotional committment, one wife per husband) really is basically a Christian idea. Prior to men being commanded to “love your wives as Christ loved the Church”, women were, quite frankly, treated like chattel and valued only for their ability to produce an heir. If they were barren they were often viewed as worthless and were discarded and replaced.

    So, you see, you can’t just discard religion when our entire concept of what the word “marriage” means came about because of religion.

    Now again, I’m not claiming marriage did not exist in pre-christian societies, but it was not marriage as we understand it today.

  • Doc Holliday

    Tell that to Antony and Cleopatra, tell that to Cleopatra and Paris. Yeah, some of it is mythology, but still based on love. Also, some Jewish scholar might have a quibble or two about this.

    PS. Christian kings certainly worried about producing heirs.

  • aesthete

    in Western Europe well into the 19th century. While I would agree that Christ would not have wanted women to be treated like chattel, historically the transition from women being treated as such to their legal parity with men a) did not take place in all Christian countries, b) involved cultural traditions as much as religion, and c) was not impelled by the Church (or the Protestant churches) as a unified entity — there was much division within churches regarding the legal status of women. While I would agree that (at least in Europe) Christianity as an aggregate was concerned for the welfare of women — i.e., that they be adequately clothed, fed and that their material needs and that of their progeny be provided for — the emotional commitment and moral parity of which you speak was more related to Enlightenment ideals than to the spread of Christianity in pre-Enlightenment Europe.

    Of course, you could make the argument that the Enlightenment would have been impossible without Christianity reaching a critical mass among citizens who could comprehend it and read the Good Book for themselves, but a) that point is debatable, and b) it is an indirect, not a direct, cause.

    (A counterpoint I would like to note is the rapid reforms that took place in Oriental countries from the 18th century onwards as a result of contact with both Catholic and Protestant missionaries/mutual aid societies; even some Orthodox missions in of Siberia and Kazakhstan. Korea/S Korea from the late 1800s onwards is a particularly good modern example.)

  • Doc Holliday

    although quite a few loved Cleopatra.

  • aesthete

    While love is a component in a Christian marriage, as an institution it was designed to produce a stable environment by which persons could fulfill the call to “be fruitful and multiply”. Seeing marriage as purely a romantic affirmation of love between has been extremely harmful to the institution, and will always ultimately lead to gay marriage being accepted: if, after all, marriage is simply about love, you can’t say that two people of the same sex can’t love each other: heterosexuals and gays alike have close friendships, platonic love, etc. In fact, it seems rather silly in that case to close off marriage to gays when so many heterosexuals find difficulty with loveless marriages. Romantic love is touching and spans culture, religion and creed, but has nothing to do with the cold workings of government. It certainly doesn’t provide justification for government’s involvement.

    That’s part of why marriage is on the straits — people don’t realize its purpose.

  • jeffreywturner

    Let’s not get absolutist here. I did not say that there was never even a single case where a husband and wife loved each other in the pre-christian era. But clearly, society in general did not view marriage to mean what we understand it to mean today until the influence of Christianity came to pass, and to deny a correlation between Christianization of cultures and the Romanticization of institution of mariage within those cultures is simply not intellectually honest.

    Heck, I mean marriage was one fo the first things to fall under the perview of the Church in the Christianization process. In fact, entire churches were formed based on people’s understanding of marriage and what it meant (ie: “til death do us part”). For reference – see Henry VIII and the Church of England.

    FYI: I happen to agree with you on getting the government out of marriage – including the discriminitory tax and benefit policies.

  • Doc Holliday

    Also, if someone really believes marriage is inherently a Christian institution, that further argues that the government should play no part in it.

    I think Christian marriage, is inherently Christian, so the marriage is a pact with God and your betrothed. Again, government does nothing but allow for a different tax filing status, etc.

    btw, taxes should have nothing to do with marital status or how many kids you have. If the feds want my money, take it, don’t judge me.

  • lineholder

    I think several other factors play into the mentality that we see in our modern society.
    First, there is the association that lust=love, which isn’t true. Lust is usually just feelings of physical attraction or finding someone sexually appealing.
    The second factor is the idea of “free love”, which is often little more than taking the lust=love mentality and then adding promiscuous actions into it.
    A third factor pertains to a mentality within our society that “free love” is “acceptable”, and then these standards of acceptability regarding love are reinforced within our society, even via government.

  • aesthete

    I’ve always seen government definitions of marriage to be a bit untoward (Mark 10:9 and all that). I also agree on taxes: it’s just more social engineering and vote-buying on the part of pols.

  • aesthete

    nt

  • jeffreywturner

    Many ideas that came about because of Christianity took many centuries to fully materialize. For instance – the concept that all are “created eaqual” took a long time to be realized, but it clearly is derived from Christendom and the dactrine of Imago Dei.

    If you have any doubts that these things changes came about because of Christianity, all you have to do is look at the countries that remained largely untouched by Christianity today. In many instances women are STILL treated like chattel.

  • Doc Holliday

    It has moved from the Eastern edge (Mesopotamia, Babylon, Ancient Greece) West over two thousand years. As the light has moved, great achievements build upon others. Certainly imperfection will always be our cross to bear, but the light shines against the dark, and usually grows brighter as time goes on. In recent times, I think it has flickered a few times.

  • Doc Holliday

    Christian marriage is a unique, sacred institution. And you wont find anyone who believes more than I in the profound and positive impact Western Civilization has had on mankind.