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Is Santorum Right? Should We Pick Manufacturing Over Other Industries? (UPDATE)

Countries frequently believe that they can achieve prosperity by government aiding one particular promising industry over others. They promise increased growth and greater employment if only the government aids the chosen industry. But as the government supports one industry, it does so at the expense of other industries that might have been created. Money that would have flowed to a variety of potentially beneficial projects is redirected–either by force or “incentives”

Jobs are created in the subsidized industry. However, the prosperity government planners promise does not materialize because the industries that would have grown are deprived of funds and languish. The government planners could not foresee which industries will grow (and may not care if it serves a political purpose). Countries that choose this approach have seen few successes and far more catastrophes.

The reason centralized, government winner-picking approaches so frequently fail is not just because the government picks the wrong industry to support. No, when governments make their choice, the country’s leaders create bureaucracies and legislation directing the country’s limited resources into the government’s chosen path. Should circumstances change and the projections of the government experts prove to be incorrect, or other opportunities arise; the country is slow or unable to adjust. In economic theory, this is called “path dependency”.

Stalin’s Russia picked manufacturing over its other industries, Asian governments picked memory chip production over other goods, politicians in US picked housing over other sectors of the economy, and Obama picked one particular solar cell type over other energy sources. All these picks proved to be wrong. Industries deprived of funds were unable to create the future and the people suffered—Suffered at the whims of government officials who were supposed to serve them.

So is Santorum picking winners and losers like a central planner? I have read a lot of comments here on Redstate concerned that Santorum is doing just that. They believe that his proposed 0% tax on manufacturing corporations, favors manufacturers at the expense of other industries. The thinking is that by lowering taxes on manufacturers, taxes must be higher on other industries thus discouraging production in these other industries and forcing the US on one path (manufacturing) and inhibiting our ability to pursue more profitable industries. As we have seen, concerns over a country creating a path dependency by picking winners and losers are justified –if there were no other economic considerations.

If there were no other considerations, Santorum’s policy of focusing on manufacturing would be of grave concern. However, there are other factors to consider. While economists agree that discriminatory government policies may create dangerous path dependencies, they also agree that tax policy should be directed in a way that:

1) Generates revenue with the fewest distortions and
2) Creates the least amount of damages or unintended consequences.

Our high corporate tax rates have caused corporations around the world to avoid locating in the US, but some industries more than others. Certain industries are more sensitive to differences in world tax rates than others. Pharmaceutical companies still locate in the US because the access to research centers is worth the higher tax rates imposed. However, the benefits of locating in the US do not always outweigh the costs imposed by our tax system.

Manufacturing is, by its nature, very competitive and in our global marketplace the benefits of locating in one country over another may be very small. As such, our high tax rates may, be killing this industry. If this is true, lower (or even 0%) tax rates on manufacturing (even at the expense of higher rates on other industries), may result in stronger growth and even greater tax revenues than our current system (even though under Santorum’s plan the corporate rate is 0%, those who own the stock will pay taxes as will the employees) Santorum expresses this logic well when he states:

“Why are we going to treat retailers and Wal-Mart and restaurants and florists different than we treat manufacturers? Because retailers don’t move their operations to China. They don’t move them to Mexico. Because we have to compete for those jobs, and if we don’t effectively compete, we lose those jobs”

Additionally, manufacturing industries also create good paying jobs at all skill levels. People currently requiring public assistance might instead be employed in jobs that relieve the public doles. Thus, rather than harming the economy, Santorum’s plan could shrink the size of government and bring in greater tax revenues. Therefore, while some might consider Santorum’s plan unfair to non-manufacturers, we conservatives should remind ourselves of one simple principle:

Taxes should be imposed not for the purposes of fairness but to raise tax revenue in the most effective manner possible.

UPDATE: Several posters have asked these questions: 1)How are taxes damaging and what damage is done by taxes? 2) Don’t taxes harm every industry the same?

# 1

Taxes are damaging because they can create job losses, lost opportunities, and reductions in people’s happiness. Taxes can cause trades that would have taken place not to take place. Taxes artificially increase the cost to a firm (or consumer). These increased costs may cause the producer to decide not to produce the good or cause the consumer to not purchase the good resulting in firms not hiring as many workers and consumers not getting the benefit of the good.

Income taxes discourage people from investing in new businesses (or having the money to doing so) because if the government gets to keep a portion of those profits, the investor may decide the risk is not worth the reduced reward. Income taxes also discourage people from working as much because it reduces the reward to their labor efforts.

US corporate tax rates are the highest in the world and we even tax overseas earnings of companies that dare locate in the US. These taxes are VERY damaging. Companies that might have located here decide to locate elsewhere in the world. Jobs are not created in the US and more people are put on public doles.

So yes taxes are very damaging. Sometimes they are needed because the damage created by the tax are outweighed by the benefits received when the government spends this money wisely (We are better off because the government fought WWII even if it did damage the markets taxed)

#2

Taxes do not harm every industry by the same amount. Take an extreme example. Suppose a small country has two industries: Gold mines and manufacturing. Suppose we tax all corporations that in this small country at the same rate of 35%. (Liberal Mecha) Will the gold mines shut down? Probably not. The gold is only located within that country and while they do not want to pay the taxes, it may still be worth extracting the gold even at this high tax rate. But what about the manufacturing industries? Imagine that they produce goods that are sold around the world and not just within the taxing country. Manufacturing companies may have chosen to locate within this country because it offered a slight cost advantage. But now that the manufacturer has to pay 35% of their profits to the government. The slight cost advantage will now be overwhelmed by the increased tax rate. The manufacturers will leave causing unemployment, lost opportunites for trade, and if there is a social safety net more people on the public dole.

Such a uniform tax rate would not only be devastating but it would also be cruel to the people who were thrown out of work by the government’s actions. Since revenue needs to be raised, the question is what is the best way to raise that revenue doing the least harm to consumers, producers, and employees.

Of course the best option is to reduce government spending so taxes do not need to be as high and so burdensome. I believe both Santorum or Gingrich would reduce spending more than Romney. Thus taxes under either of them can be lower and less burdensome.

COMMENTS

  • acat

    Using tax policy for social engineering shouldn’t pass a conservative sniff test, even if the goal aimed for is a conservative one. Period.

    I’ll also point out that Santorum has a long history of union ties … you know, the guys who work those high-paying manufacturing jobs. I don’t see him peeling too many of them away from the Dems, not after all the union payoffs Obama has signed off.

    Mew

    • LibertyWins

      Acat, I’m sure you mean well and I’m sure you are quite interested in advancing conservatism but, our leadership also uses excuses like non-interventionism to cover for our failure to halt, rollback, and defeat the liberal agenda. I call it impotence .

      Harding, Coolidge, and Reagan were not afraid to halt, rollback, and defeat liberalism. Coolidge had far greater success domestically rolling back liberalism but, he failed to defeat it. Reagan successfully halted the advance of the liberal agenda but, he failed to roll it back and defeat it. He was successful doing that to the Soviet Union.

      I want to halt, rollback, and defeat the liberal agenda at home and the Islamist and Chinese communist agenda abroad. Are you game?

      • acat

        Santorum has taken the pro-union non-conservative position of lowering taxes on one sector of the economy – manufacturing.

        How on earth are you translating my pointing out that Santorum’s position is not conservative into my somehow wanting the status quo?

        Mew

        • LibertyWins

          you sounded like one of those holier than thou libertarian types. I’m sorry if I was being a bit overbearing.

          • acat

            so perhaps that’s why I sound like one.

            That doesn’t change the reality – Santorum and Obama are both picking winners and losers. That Santorum is likely better at handicapping does not make horse racing a correct model for government.

            Mew

  • quill67

    They are both beverages. But we tax them at different rates and not because we think alcohol is a sin. We tax them at different rates because people are more willling to pay higher prices for alcohol than soft drinks.

    Government also taxes hotels more than apartments. Is that social engineering? Or just sensible policy.

    Why do conservatives support lower taxes on saving? On capital gains?

    Is this not distortionary? Is this not social engineering? Is it not unfair (to quote Obama). We do not care. The purpose of taxes is to raise revenue. And if lowering the corporate tax rate to 0% and will grow this economy. I am all for it.

    • sulmak

      same goes for cigarettes and gambling. That is why they are called sin taxes.

    • acat

      Taxing alcohol differently from soft drinks is to discourage alcohol consumption.

      Taxing food at a lower rate than school supplies is to discourage people from whining about high taxes.

      Your diary is attempting to defend the indefensible – and your reply is just non-serious.

      Mew

      • quill67

        Oh some claim that, but if they wanted to limit consumption there are much more effective ways of doing that. No. The government just wants the tax revenue. It is easier to tax alcohol sales without killing the market and the government gets wonderful amounts of tax revenue.

        Why is there an additional tax on cell phones but not on broccoli? Do we consider cell phones a sin but broccoli good? No. They tax cell phones because most people will still buy the phones with the added tax. This allows taxes to be lower (in theory) on other goods where a tax might be more damaging.

        • acat

          also applies to persuading voters to not vote the bums out!

          Mew

    • littlehouse18

      ..

  • sulmak

    do to being built in to cost of exports, but not imports, so in theory Santorum’s policy could be seen as simply compensating for inherent handicapping against manufacturing that income tax creates.

    Having an income tax is picking other industries over manufacturing.

    Optimally, we would not have a heavy income tax, but would use other types of taxes. However, non-income taxes are harder to shape progressively, and Santorum seems to like progressive taxation.

    • acat

      You know, taxes upon imported goods?

      Specifically, taxes that are intended to be set to – socially engineer – a protection for domestic industries that the government wishes to keep.

      You do raise the question of just what the G-8 and other global trade bodies will make of our efforts to “protect” our (union) manufacturing jobs….

      Mew

      • sulmak

        Not to mention that income taxes are typically above 20% when the economy is good. And that we have no tariffs with Canada and Mexico.

        Source for tariff rate: heritage foundation
        http://www.heritage.org/index/country/unitedstates
        “The trade weighted average tariff rate is 1.8 percent”

        Also of note this chart of historical tariff rates to 1996
        http://www.econdataus.com/tariffs.html

        Also I believe I’ve seen the rate 7.8% thrown around before, perhaps it is the highest rate on a certain protected industry.

        • acat

          IIRC, we’ve lodged protests over protectionist trade practices in the past .. airbus comes to mind.

          Doesn’t dropping manufacturing tax rates (i.e. “protecting” a specific sector) not have similar risk for us?

          Mew

          • sulmak

            It is important to note that we already, and nearly every other country does, favor certain industries over others. Agriculture and green energy for instance.

            From this point on this is my understanding of a complex issue that generally requires a specialized law degree to fully understand

            The main point of contention would be whether or not a country could argue that a lack of taxes is a subsidy, and I suppose a Judge could be convince of that depending on the judge.

            If they convince the judge that it is a subsidy then it must pass another test, the country filing must be aggrieved by a chance of their domestic industries losing sales in their own country, not their export market. In other words it is without merit if the suing country doesn’t have a trade deficit with the subsidizing country on the sector of the economy that is subsidized.

            Since we have a relatively large trade deficit, that is unlikely to happen any time soon.

            Another point of attack would be to claim that the United States was only doing this to drive their industries out of business, only to raise the corporate rates back to previous rates after the foreign firms go out of business.

            I will give an example of what action a country could take in this case. Say Borneo makes widgets and sells them in their own markets for a dollar, and We make them and can sell them in Borneo for a $1.20, but after we get rid of tax, we are able to sell them for $0.90 in the Borneo market. Borneo would then be able to temporarily raise a tariff to 11.1%(and no higher) in order to make the prices equal. Note that this would not effect us selling widgets to Borneo’s previous trade partner Thailand, who solely imports widgets.

            From what I can tell a country would have no way to pursue damages to their industry from losing the ability to export their goods to the US from us lowering our own domestic taxes, just if they started importing large amounts of goods from the US, and even then it is sketchy.

            Hope that example helped.

            Also the Airbus issue apparently was more to do with a bilateral agreement we had with the E.U., rather than normal W.T.O. rules.

          • acat

            not seeing much to disagree with, especially the trade deficit point.

            Mew

    • http://MichaelHarrington.org creinstein

      I had never thought of it, but your right… income taxes favor industries with lower manpower to output.

      So airlines if the aircraft itself was a seperate business from the terminal side, would be favored for having less total employees as well as less total benefits (which is getting out of hand imho, I know some companies with forced overtime and no hiring due to size of benefits).

      Manpower intense activites would have larger tax burdens due to the payroll tax and such.

      Ofc there is some balancing… people pay for what they want…

      But it does help identify why some companies export service jobs when possible overseas.

      Thanks for the thought. Now I have to ponder the information for a while. This is pretty complex in reality… where is the balance after all!

      • acat

        In terms of wages, a ramp worker makes more than a grill master at Burgerville and less than an executive at Riverview Bank .. and they pay different amounts of taxes to match.

        You’re right that labor-intensive industry is at a disadvantage .. which is why American manufacturing productivity per worker has spiked significantly – we’re automating a *lot* more!

        Adjusting the tax base on manufacturing companies will not bring back jobs – they’re gone already. Nobody wants to have to manage a constantly-changing crew of unskilled labor when they can hire a single loyal well-paid mechanic to fix automated hardware.

        Mew

        • http://MichaelHarrington.org creinstein

          I would never advocate change without studying it in depth.

          I agree there are some controls already.

          I just find it interesting to think over.

          Math is my hobby!

    • bk

      are taxes based on inventory at the end of the year that cause them to do weird things on New Year’s Eve.

      • sulmak

        Never heard of them before. What state do you live in?

  • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

    I manufacture blog posts.

    You and Santorum are both TOTALLY clueless. All this does is distort markets and diverts capital from efficient use.

    And, thank you for the list above. It’s classic central government stupidity. We tax alcohol at a higher rate because you and Rick think it’s a sin. In fact, medical doctors think it’s good medicine when used in moderation.

    Hotels and apartments are apples and oranges. Taxes on apartments are analogous to the real estate tax paid on a single family home. Hotel room taxes are specifically designated to tax visitors to your city, just like a rental car tax.

    Conservatives actually support a flat tax – some support fair tax – that is designed to treat all income – or spending – equally, and simply raise the money needed to operate the government, as in the Constitutionally obligated operations.

    If you want to stimulate the economy, let’s move to a flat income tax with three tiers. Everybody pays something. Everybody. No deductions, no exemptions and no rebates. Eliminate all corporate income tax. You will do two things. First, with a flat tax where everybody who earns money pays taxes, every American will actually have skin in the game and the probability is that all of a sudden, people will start demanding that government stop growing. The other plus is that corporations will start using their profits in an efficient manner. No more spending to grab a tax deduction. And, dividends will go up and that will be taxed as regular income.

    A side benefit to the above is that the cost of tax compliance drops to zero.

    As far as social engineering? Certainly your “sin taxes” are.

    By giving breaks to manufacturing, just where is Santorum planning on making up the difference, because the difference will have to be made up. This is the precise equivalent of Obama handing out grants and loan guarantees to “Green” energy businesses. They’re just picking a different winner.

    It’s an incredibly inefficient plan and one that only the ignorant and stupid will fall for. Unfortunately, there’s no shortage. of those. As this diary amply shows.

    • Flagstaff

      “We tax alcohol at a higher rate because you and Rick think it?s a sin.”

      While that might be partly right, it’s also partly because we CAN tax it at a higher rate. That is, the higher rate doesn’t drive down total revenues by putting the purchase price plus tax past the optimal point.

      Back when sales taxes were at a more reasonable 3% or so, food was taxed just like rubber balls were. When sales taxes started to get ridiculous, legislators were forced to reduced the rate on food or exempt it altogether, because “it isn’t fair to the poor.” So there are way too many aspects of taxation to cover it in just one diary.

      This diary does the best job possible in making a case that a reduced tax rate on manufacturing might just be compensating for extra taxes paid elsewhere.

      My question would be, if it can help manufacturers why not do it for everybody, and help us all out?

      • bk

        I don’t believe all those holier-than-thou liberals want to eliminate smoking – they just want to maximize the taxes collected from it.

        • aesthete

          “I don?t believe all those holier-than-thou liberals want to eliminate smoking”

          I’ve never gotten any vibe from anti-smoking liberals besides a desire to eliminate smoking.

    • quill67

      “Hotel room taxes are specifically designated to tax visitors to your city, just like a rental car tax.”

      So you want to tax visitors at a higher rate? Do visitors not pay sales taxes like locals? Didn’t the owner of the hotel already pay property taxes? Don’t visitors also pay additional taxes if they take a taxi?

      These governments tax these goods rather than having one fair tax because it generates revenue without causing as much damage as taxing everything at the same rate.

      • acat

        don’t live and vote in the district the hotel is in…

        “Skim the rubes” doesn’t seem like an intelligent long-term tax policy, let alone a conservative one.

        Mew

        • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

          We beat the daylights out of the partygoers who are showing up for fun in the sun. Mrs908 & I went to Hawaii last fall and they make Phoenicians look like pikers.

          I don’t happen to like “visitor taxes” any better than I like business taxes, they are nothing more than a sign of complete arrogance.

      • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

        because they can be. Government taxes because it can. And hotel room taxes are nothing more than a variant of sales taxes.

        Which is why a flat income tax and no business tax is a good thing. Everybody seems to think “business taxes” are a good thing because they give relief to individuals. Well gosh, where do business get the revenue to pay the damn tax? Oh yeah, they raise their prices so they can pay them.

        You really are ignorant quill. Are you a teacher by chance?

        • quill67

          Simply that we should collect tax revenues in the least damaging way. Which gets harder the greater amount the government spends.

          The real question is who will create an atmosphere where government spending will be the smallest so the method of taxation is not as important.

          • APA Guy

            Right now, we discourage the creation and accumulation of wealth by virtue of a progressive income tax. We similarly discourage the creation and accumulation of wealth by giving money to those who have not earned it.

            Sales taxes are not regressive to BUSINESSES, as evidenced by my state’s (Indiana) robust economic outlook and balanced budgets as compared to our Midwest brethren. We have capped property taxes and employ a fairly low flat state income tax while “imposing” a 7% consumption tax.

            In other words, we give taxpayers more money to spend…and surprise surprise, they spend it. Damn right the method of taxation is important.

          • Flagstaff

            “we discourage the creation and accumulation of wealth by virtue of a progressive income tax.”

            That’s only significantly true if the rates become too high. Keep top rates below 30% or so and it isn’t a problem. Reagan’s 28% rate may be the optimal top rate.

          • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

            government spending will continue to grow uncontrollably, you just don’t seem bright enough to figure that out.

            And, BUSINESSES DO NOT PAY TAX. PERIOD. NOT ONE PENNY. Their customers do, and they do it indirectly and it’s wrong.

            Earn money, from $1 to $1MM or more, pay income tax. No deductions, no exemptions, no rebates. In other words, no mortgage deduction which artificially inflates the cost of a house, etc.

            Consumers will fight increasing sales tax, if you don’t believe that, go to Texas or New Hampshire or Delaware, run for office and propose a sales tax. Hint: wear Kevlar. They don’t care about “business taxes” because they don’t pay them directly, it’s built into the price so they don’t see it.

            In order for people to be concerned about the amount of tax they’re paying, it’s necessary that they pay it DIRECTLY not indirectly. Until we do that, roughly half the people in the country are never going to find a reason to stop government “give-aways”. We’re not well off by any measure, but I pay more in income tax than the combined total of at least 43% of the US.

        • APA Guy

          In fact, I am a college and university professor. We should always remember that some of us working within academia are fighting the good fight and allowing conservatism to take hold…as it nearly always does when given a chance in the classroom :)

          • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

            Off topic story for you. My son, the Marine Vet, is in his third year at UC Santa Cruz. If it’s not THE most liberal school in the US, it’s very close. When Josh got out of the Corps and started school he was pretty liberal, voted for TheWon. At school, he mostly hangs out with the Marines and other military – actually looks like he’ll get an internship with the UC Chancellor’s office next year as a Military rep for the office. One of his buddies was asked by the UCSC Administration to speak to a group of tenured Profs on the military experience and military issues in school. A couple of minutes into his presentation a Prof stood up and interrupted him and said “I am offended that you and people like you are allowed to attend the University of California. You have no place here and you aren’t welcome.”

            Josh’s buddy made a throwaway comment and continued after about a minute of dead silence. There were over 100 Profs in the room, not one said a word.

            Josh, not just because of this incident, is a conservative, just a tad to the right of me.

            I couldn’t survive in your job for two days.

          • APA Guy

            …that even among the business faculty there exist patently anti-business elements that would tax job creators into oblivion and blow up the world’s most successful and admired economic system – the U.S capitalist system – in lieu of the failed socialist model. Even when Europe is in flames because of the spoiled-brat mentality that is prevalent primarily because of the socialist system that emerged over the years, they STILL want it to replace our capitalist system.

            Kudos to you and your son. This college professor appreciates his service to this nation…and yours.

          • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

            When the economy crashes and burns because of all of the idiotic government meddling, then those same people will call it a market failure.

      • aesthete

        Doesn’t mean it isn’t also a form of social engineering.

    • littlehouse18

      Fair and beneficial.

      • Change Jar Conservative

        would draw companies here faster then we could imagine.

        • quill67

          what happens if Santroum’s 0% plan works for manufacturing. Then someone will realize: Gee it worked for that industry why not all.

  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    It does wonders for every nation which holds them. In the first place, they never work. Domestic industries have completely withered on the vine even in times when they had a lot of protection.

    Secondly, they can spark a trade war, and when that happens you will quickly see that a large percentage of our economy is export driven.

    Third, and this is the most important, Who the hell has the right to put a special tax on consumers just to protect a certain industry? How does that square with “equal protection under the law”?

    • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

      special tax considerations, while not exactly the same as a tariff are just as hideous, they are a subsidy.

      • aesthete

        It’s funny how we didn’t need tariffs or a special tax to become the software capital of the world.

        • JSobieski

          I would rather tax businesses for activities occuring in the US rather than singling out US based corporations for particularly harsh taxation for the privilege of employing people here and manufacturing things here.

          We have a tax code that is blatantly stupid from virtually any perspective. Going to a transaction-based tax in the US and eliminating corporate income taxes is way to address concerns that can result in protectionism without engaging in protectionism.

          I am not a fan of the FAIR tax or of 999, but either would create an extra boom in the midwest.

  • aesthete

    Has anyone here worked a manufacturing job? From what I’ve been able to ascertain, it’s dull, monotonous work with little payoff (in terms of seeing your completed product), and causes serious health problems down the line after an extended period of time. I have worked in the service industry, in academia, and in the military — I would gladly work in any of those fields before looking for a job as a cog in an assembly line. Out of all those people stumping for the return of the manufacturing economy — how many are actually willing to work a job in that industry? How many industrial workers wanted that life for their children? Not many: that is why they worked to put their children through college. I will note that in Santorum’s case, he chose to become a lawyer rather than a manufacturer, when he was given the choice. Just what is so appealing about those jobs?

    We are producing much more — both in terms of raw goods and $ — in our manufacturing sector than we have ever produced. Our manufacturing sector is on par with China’s manufacturing sector — they only surpassed us a couple of years ago, and not by much. The fact is, our worker productivity is just that much higher, due to technology and our highly skilled workforce. Given the state of labor regulations, unions, and the relative fixity of a plant once it’s opened, it makes sense that businesses would pursue capital over labor in the US. Why is this bad?

    Here’s my theory: the left likes manufacturing because it comes closest to approximating the top-down authoritarian model that persists in government at all levels: a factory is more easily controlled and tightly monitored by an omnipresent supervisor than almost any other type of private employment, and the individual worker is given little opportunity to take initiative or act of his own accord.The right likes it because of the aesthetics — it’s clearly a job where one has to work hard, and it is associated with a time that is often portrayed as being more optimistic and more oriented towards traditional values.

    • JSobieski

      (1) Unless working for the government, employees can only hope to be paid based on what they produce
      (2) High wages requires high productivity
      (3) The only way to pay a relatively unskilled a relatively high wage is to put that person in a highly capitalized manufacturing process.

      • quill67

        This is why we conservatives want low capital gains taxes so we get more capital #3 which increases wages #2 and decreases those working for government #1.

      • acat

        manufacturing jobs also, you know, UNION jobs?

        That is in line with Santorum’s record, after all.

        This cat would prefer to not further the careers of union bigwigs who drove the U.S. auto makers into bankruptcy and somehow came out the other side owning them …

        Mew

        • JSobieski

          http://www.cepr.net/index.php/union-membership-bytes/union-rates-fall-severe-drop-in-manufacturing-in-2006

          I do agree that there some on the left who get excited about manufacturing jobs because of the union opportunities and other political angles.

          That being said, fiscal conservatism is a harder sell when structural unemployment is high and a large portion of the population can’t access the escalator of success.

          Moreover, a lot services relate to manufacturing businesses. Manufacturers buy most of the robots (for example) that are made. Such robots need to be serviced/repaired/etc.

          /

          • acat

            Think it will help persuade some UAW folks to vote Santorum?

            Mew

          • JSobieski

            I myself don’t inherently interpret things that way, but I don’t have the same visceral reaction to Santorum that you do.

            Frankly, the last D I remember talking alot about manufacturing jobs was Paul Tsongas in 1992.

            One thing Romney and I have in common is that we both voted for Tsongas in the primary.

            I did it as a personal “operation chaos”. Not sure if Romney had similar motivation or not.

          • JSobieski

            in places like Michigan and Ohio.

            Of course, Santorum could be to the left of Obama on free trade depending on which way the wind blows on a particular day.

      • aesthete

        but isn’t the vast majority of our labor force highly skilled and educated (by world standards, anyways)? We’re not talking about the 50s, here: the overwhelming majority of Americans have a high school degree, and a substantial minority (~40%) has college degrees. Why not a jobs training program, education program, or apprenticeships, instead of manufacturing? Plumbers and electricians are well-paid, and neither profession requires a college background.

        • JSobieski

          Creates jobs for machinists, welders, electricians, etc. Moreover, manufacturing operations can create a career path leading to more skilled positions. People forget that the industrial midwest used to be relatively rich.

          • aesthete

            I think we both agree that trying to turn back the clock to a unique window of time before our competitors’ cities were more than rubble, and before capital improvements, is ill advised, but I can understand at least some of the sentiment coming from rust belt politicians.

            I’ll never really understand it when it comes from urban liberals or Southern conservative politicians, though.

          • JSobieski

            Manufacturing is an industry that is overly hard hit by liberalism—-high capital requirements, significant environmental restrictions, labor laws, OSHA, unions, complex processes requiriing flexibility, etc.

            While it makes sense for mature/legacy manufacturing to leave the country, the cutting edge stuff should always be here… and for good reason. The people who design the machines for manufacturing are inevitably American, German, or Japanese. Machines need to be serviced/fixed.

            While I am not overly sympathetic to the idea that someone with no skills should be entitled to a summer cabin, I do see manufacturing as a pathway to lifelong learning with a portion of the population that is unlikely to attend college.

            I for one believe that many college degrees are a waste of time. I am very happy to hear that MIT will be offering online classes for FREE (but that is a side issue).

            The plight of manufacturing is overstated, but I do not believe the importance of manufacturing is overstated.

          • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

            are real, but they are not limited only to that sector of the economy.

            What you are really arguing is for a broad, sweeping, and thorough cleansing of our byzantine and counter productive regulations.

            We could absolutely unleash an economic miracle by merely pushing back all work related regulations tot he level of the mid 1980′s.

          • lineholder

            of some sort. The jobs not only provide the potential to lead to other higher positions…they often require those higher-ed positions on the front side of the production process.

            Even in the clothing industry, there are now CNC fabric cutting machines that require product design, CNC programming, etc. And although a lot of people think I’m totally nuts for even thinking it, I’d love to see us go after pulling some of this industry back into our country again. But then again, I’m not thinking of it in the traditional manufacturing context, where it obtained “sweat shop” status either. I’m thinking programmed cut, distribute cut, and let assembly be performed in a person’s home.

            It could be a way to provide jobs in inner-city areas where so many business owners simply can’t justify opening a business. There are other products that could be assembled on the same basis as well.

            Yes, I know….I’m nuts. Totally nuts.

          • JSobieski

            However, there are plenty of people out there running automated CNC machines without a college degree. They do likely have the equivalent of associates degrees, but even those jobs can be obtained through an in-house training program and a promotion.

            My point is that there are people who take relatively unskilled positions and then move up as they gain skills. A lot of spot welders started with general line jobs. Tool and die makers, electricians, repair technicians, etc. are jobs that would be lost when a plant closes, moves overseas, etc.

            Some of those skills translate into the construction trades, but that industry isn’t exactly doing well either.

            My bottom line point is that there are some decent hardworking people out there who for whatever reason can see themselves gaining skills in a manufacturing/operation context that would never see themselves going to college. Frankly, we need more of those kinds of people, and fewer sociology graduates. However, when operations go overseas, those jobs leave as well.

            Apple has a lot of engineers and programmers working in the US. They do not however employ the people who exist in that level between unskilled manufacturing (which is also absent) and engineering college grads.

            Automation replaces the unskilled over time, but even some of the unskilled can and do become skilled.

            Manufacturing is still a good avenue for income mobility among the working poor.

            One of my favorite charities is FOCUS Hope. See http://www.focushope.edu/ and http://www.facebook.com/pages/Focus-HOPE/105946829436430

            Focus Hope trains people for particularly the type of jobs I am talking about.

  • jgelling

    Santorum’s blue collar policy is not only sound economics, but sound politics.

    On the economics of it, there *is* a difference between manufacturing and service industries. Service industries, particularly financial service, has NEVER produced lasting wealth in any country (see the history of other declined empires that turned to debt service as their primary industry – in Italy, Spain, the Netherlands, British Empire, etc.) Having an industrial base is critical to prosperity.

    Why do you think countries like Germany, Japan, China and South Korea are so notoriously protectionist? Coincidentally, those are the countries in the best economic position at the moment (Japan would be infinitely better off with a better population growth rate, but that’s a whole other issue).

    On the politics, it’s important to run a blue collar candidate against Obama. The absolute worst thing we could do is run the rich Wall Street guy against Obama.

  • Flagstaff

    you raise some interesting ideas.

    The update regarding gold mining vs. manufacturing illustrates your point very well.