Promoted from the diaries by Neil
Believe it or not, Salon.com has given a conservative the opportunity to fill their space. This weeks question in “Ask a Wingnut” gets to an important topic, one with implications far beyond the scope of the actual words.
On the face of it, the Wingnut author does a good job answering the question: the Conservative record on science is well established. Conservatives most definitely aren’t anti-science.
The article doesn’t address (it’s not the point of the article) the more important issue, which is the liberal tactic of marginalizing anyone who doesn’t agree with their perspective (just look at the tone of the question… anti-ALL science, or just anti-BAD science?). The issues raised in the article (stem-cell research and global warming) seem to be at the crux of the anti-science slander from the left. I don’t want to deal with the science, there are others better equipped to do that. What interests me is how the left doesn’t seem to be willing to even admit that there is another side or any competing science. That’s what distinguishes the right from the left.
Let’s use Intelligent Design (of which I am a proponent) as an illustration of how the left marginalizes the right by looking at a (somewhat) non-political (read: non-governmental/Washington D.C. issue) .
- I believe the world was created by an Intelligent Being, and I don’t believe Darwin (or any other amalgum of scientific theorists) offer as reasonable and scientifically proveable explanation of how the world is.
- I accept that there is a theory of evolution, and that smart, intelligent, educated, honest scientists in the world ascribe to this theory.
- I will also concede that Intelligent Design is a theory in the same way that gravity is a theory (an assumption based on limited information or knowledge; a conjecture). It has not been observed as a complete process (i.e. we weren’t there at creation) so it can not be verified as an observed fact.
I don’t have any problem with my children being taught evolution in schools, because school should be the place where children learn to wrestle with ideas. I don’t, however, hear the left clamoring for the free exchange of ideas. The very foundation of true science is being open to question your hypothesis. As soon as you stop questioning, or limit the scope of your questions, you stop being a scientist and start being a dogmatist.
To illustrate the point of the differences, I will use today’s edition of the Cal State Long Beach’s Daily 49er, which just so happens to have an article entitled “Intelligent Design Isn’t Smart.” A few quotes and some thoughts. First, in paragraph 2:
Intelligent Design attempts to reconcile science with the Biblical creation myths by hypothesizing that each species appeared abruptly with its distinct characteristics.
The language is loaded. The stories in the Bible are “myths” and stand in opposition to science. Intelligent Design is the attempt to reconcile these two opposing entities (science & myth). If you would debate this article, you would not simply be arguing the merits of the evidence, you would be put in the position of having to debate “science” with “myth,” and you’re not saying myth can speak to science are you? Next, paragraph 3:
The court ruled that the school board violated students’ rights by introducing a religious doctrine into a public school. The U.S. Constitution forbids the government from promoting or prohibiting any religion.
The issue here isn’t with the article, but illustrates the left’s general position to opposing information. The implication is that the proposition of Intelligent Design is synonymous with religion. My question would be, “what is religion, & what qualifies as religious doctrine?” I contend that evolutionists are as zealous about their religion as creationists, only far more subversive about it. Now to paragraph 4:
I was struck by the passion with which the Evangelical Christians argued that kids should also be taught Intelligent Design as an alternative. They emphasized that evolution was only a theory.
What’s the problem with advocating alternative theories in science class? Intelligent Design proponents weren’t advocating that Evolution be thrown out of the classroom, only that it be taught in its true scientific context, as a widely held belief with scientifically legitimate alternatives. The I.D.’ers here are reduced to an easily marginalized stereotype (passionate Evangelical Christians). Did the author interview every opponent to discover their religious or philosophical belief’s? Is there any chance that an impartial, unbiased scientists would allow room for Intelligent Design?
Scientific theories are not purely speculative, however. Evolution, like the theory of gravitation or the germ theory of disease, is supported by an enormous body of evidence that has withstood repeated testing. Darwin’s theory is foundational to the biological sciences, which would otherwise be incoherent.
His logic breaks down. Just because it is supported by an enormous body of evidence, doesn’t mean it’s not speculative. The implication here is that there is absolutely no evidence what so ever for intelligent design. Also, simply because it’s the foundation of the current biological sciences doesn’t make it true. The science of medicine was based on a faulty premise before germ theory. Does that make germ theory was false, only does it mean the whole system was previously built on a faulty assumption? This paragraph works great to marginalize the opposition, but it doesn’t do much at all to further the conversation.
So far the author has lumped ID’ers into passionate zealot Evangelicals without a shred or hint of scientific evidence. Is that the case? Has every ID proponent in the world checked their brain at the door? Are only Evolutionists the ones with intellectual rigor and integrity? The next paragraph state (you’ve noticed so far that every paragraph is represented, right?)
Kenneth Miller of Brown University said, “Not a single observation, not a single experimental result, has ever emerged in 150 years that contradicts the general outlines of the theory of evolution. Any theory that can stand up to 150 years of contentious testing is a pretty darn good theory.”
WOW! There is absolutely no scientific foundation for anything other that Evolution in the world? There’s absolutely no problem what so ever with Evolution? Every single scientific data for 150 years has supported the theory? Some people would take exception with Mr. Miller’s proposition. The next paragraph reads:
Many Evangelicals also believe there is an ongoing debate in the scientific community on evolution versus Intelligent Design, but this is not the case. Intelligent Design is overwhelmingly rejected by the scientific community, so much so that the defense in this case had a hard time finding scientists to testify.
Again, it must be an open and shut case, then. Thre is absolutely no debate in the scientific community about this. There wasn’t even a creation scientist to be found. This goes back to the same problems with the above quote.
The rest of the article continues in the same vein. I picked this article, because it was written today (it’s recent), it showed up at the top of a google search (it’s accessible), and and it’s written at a University (it’s “intellectually credible”).
The point is that it’s exactly what the left claims the right is. When the left wants to make head way in a debate (about the climate, stem cells, enhanced interrogation) they follow the same path:
- Create or employ a stereotype/straw man (it’s best if it can be linked Evangelicals, the most on the edge of the sanity continuum demographic in the country to be sure)
- Ensure the populus that no right thinking person in the world holds an opposing view to intimidate you by not wanting you to feel uneducated or uninformed
- Assure you that all the evidence everywhere in the world supports their claim (often without presenting any of it themselves)
- resort to name calling
I appreciate Salon.com for running this article and allowing the silliness and small mindedness to be on display. I also appreciate wingnut for taking the issue head on. A few great questions when faced with leftist bullying:
- “What evidence do you have?” Ask them to get specific.
- “Why should I accept your proposition, hypothesis, or evidence?” Why is your proposition or hypothesis better than mine?
- “Who says?” Who supports your theory, and why are they credible? “Everyone” is not a logically acceptable answer to this question.
I have often been made to feel that I have to be on the defensive. I don’t mind defending my hypotheses, because I think they are defensible. It’s time to stand in the face of this nonsense. Don’t employ the same tactics they use, don’t run from the debate, just don’t let them define the terms and conditions if they’re not acceptable. That’s science… honest, unbiased conversation based on the information at hand, and that’s what liberals seem to have a hard time dealing with.
Crossposted with updates at realityunwound
Neil Stevens
Steve Maley
If man can
tcolegrove (Diary) Monday, May 11th at 1:21PM EST (link)try to re-create the big bang therory via the CERN project, how can we not consider Intelligent Design? The very core of the project is to re-create how life began….is there not a ‘creator’ for this project?
tough choices
jmt1984 Monday, May 11th at 2:08PM EST (link)I think that this type of issue is going to be the challenge for conservatives. The left is able to cast us as the party against science, which is unfortunate. I would like to have it both ways with ID, have it taught in school because of it being a different point of view, but not in a science class because it cannot stand up to the rigor of the scientific process. I understand that this is an important issue to some people, I just think that we should pick our battles carefully.
http://jmt1984.blogspot.com
All this about an editorial in a college newspaper?
JosephP Monday, May 11th at 2:42PM EST (link)It seems like a lot of effort was expended here to refute, paragraph by paragraph, a single editorial by a theological student in a college newspaper. Whether you agree or disagree with this editorial, it hardly qualifies as the standard of liberal opinion-setting.
Can’t you find a statement by a prominent liberal politician or organization to parse and critique? Even the comments section from Salon.com’s “Ask a Wingnut” would be more relevant for debate than this single college-level editorial.
Gee
Neil Stevens (Diary) Monday, May 11th at 2:44PM EST (link)*This* is your first post?
Struck a nerve did it?
That’s why I promoted it. You lose.
RS contributing editor, technical administrator, and “a hardy variety of crabgrass.”
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Well, of course it struck a nerve...
nonsequitur (Diary) Monday, May 11th at 3:15PM EST (link)It is a bit of an overt display of force for a college editorial.
Anyway, theres a few problems with this article as well:
Intelligent Design is not a *scientific* theory because it makes claims that are not falsifiable, even in the theoretical sense.
To be a scientific theory, the claim being made must be falsifiable, or able to be tested in some way. Evolution can be tested, albeit our life spans make the execution difficult.
Micro-evolution can be tested in organisms with sufficiently short life cycles, but macro evolution is impossible for humanity to observe. However, this problem is ours, not logic’s. If a computer was set up to monitor Earth for the next million years the theory of evolution could be tested. It is just not feasible. But there is a difference between feasibility and possibility.
Intelligent Design is not falsifiable. It cannot be tested, not matter what. Even if we lived from now until the death of our sun, there would be no test that could prove or disprove ID. Instead, it is a tautology. Any and all evidence can be construed to fit the theory. Find evidence of fossil evolution? The creator put it there. Observe micro-evolution in fruit flys and bean sprouts? The creator designed these properties so his creations could grow on their own. Create a million year experiment that observes macro evolution? You get the idea.
A *scientific* theory must be provable, true or false. As long as there exist theoretical tests that can be devised then the theory is provable, or falsifiable. I remember very well when I learned this in high school physics, and the sense of rebellious incredulity that swelled within me. ( If it describes everything then its right! Why should a theory need to be falsifiable?) But it is true. A theory which cannot be tested is not a theory, but a logical fallacy.
That is why it should not be taught in high school. It is not science. It is faith. And it confuses the difference when taught to a young, impressionable, mind.
Veritas Lux Mea
Good on you nonsequitor....
Aaron Gardner (Diary) Monday, May 11th at 3:25PM EST (link)now convince your side to stop trying to use evolution to explain the origin of the universe, and we will talk about what else is and is not science.
conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!
“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat
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Can you provide a link?
exitsfunnel Monday, May 11th at 3:30PM EST (link)Can you provide a link to anyone on his side positing that evolution explains the origins of the universe? Because it’s not clear to me what one has to do with the other and I’ve never heard any evolutionary biologist claim anything to the contrary.
-exits
why didn't you ask him for a link exits....vested are we?...
Aaron Gardner (Diary) Monday, May 11th at 3:43PM EST (link)Atheistic evolution is dependent on disproving a Creator and in that the wish to explain the origins and they come at it from an atheistic darwinistic evolutionary perspective. Therefore it is just as non falsifiable as ID and yet the big bang theory is tied into evolutionary theory and taught as fact in our public schools.
Don’t play the link game with me if you aren’t going to play it fairly.
conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!
“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat
Follow @Aaron_RS
Missed the question...
nonsequitur (Diary) Monday, May 11th at 3:51PM EST (link)Well, to be fair, I think he was attempting to show the difference between evolution as science and evolution as demi-religion.
There is evolution that explains how life develops from other life, and why *we* exist.
Then there are those who take evolution and try extrapolate from that the origin of *all* life.
The first is science, the latter is not. Just as the first is falsifiable and the second is not. Evolution cannot explain the origins of life, but a true scientist would not claim it can.
See my post below.
Veritas Lux Mea
A few comments
exitsfunnel Monday, May 11th at 4:04PM EST (link)I’m not sure that I understood the thrust of your argument if there was one, so I’ll just respond bullet form with what I think are probably comments relevant to your post.
(1) I’m not sure exactly what you mean by ‘vested,’ but the reason that I didn’t ask him for any links was because I’m familiar with his argument and am in absolute agreement with him.
(2) I asked you for a link because I believe that your claim that people on his side (which is also my side) use evolution to explain the origin of the universe is a straw man – they do no such thing. No biologist *anywhere* would claim that evolution has anything at all to do with the origin of the universe.
(3) There is no ‘atheistic evolution.’ There is only evolution and it underpins essentially all of the academic biology of the last 70 years. The issue has long since been settled in the scientific world, accepted by scientists both religious and secular.
(4) I have no idea what you mean by my not playing fairly.
-exits
I don't know exits...other people got my point...
Aaron Gardner (Diary) Monday, May 11th at 4:14PM EST (link)and it has been talked about plenty of times here are RedState so you can act ignorant if you want, no skin off my nose.
And I think Dawkins is rather well known for subscribing to atheistic evolution.
conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!
“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat
Follow @Aaron_RS
Two Comments
exitsfunnel Monday, May 11th at 4:24PM EST (link)(1) Your claim was about the ‘origin of the universe’ which somehow got transmuted to ‘origin of life’ in Nonsequitor’s replies below. I’m not sure how that happened, but the two have nothing to do with each other. So my challenge stands: find one biologist anywhere who claims that the theory of evolution has anything to do with the ‘origin of the universe.’
(2) Dawkins is an atheist but there is nothing special about ‘his’ evolution. It’s just the same old stuff that thousands upon thousands upon thousands of religious scientists the world over subscribe to.
-exits
exits...universe/life ...
Aaron Gardner (Diary) Monday, May 11th at 4:32PM EST (link)see this is why I can’t stand talking to holier than thou scientists…you are drier than the crackers one gets at mass.
I am even willing to agree that evolution and the big bang could have been mechanisms used by God to create the Universe and Life and all you want to do is make some challenge that I am not even talking about.
Stay in you bubble.
Dawkins uses evolution to purposefully try and refute the existence of God…as someone who claims to respect science you should see how this bastardizes the actual science of evolution.
conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!
“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat
Follow @Aaron_RS
Sorry, Aaron.
Flagstaff (Diary) Tuesday, May 12th at 2:07AM EST (link)Until Dawkins posts a diary here, we can only guess at what he might say to us. Whatever he might say can also only discredit him, not evolution.
Neither the existence nor the non-existence of God is what evolution is about, no matter what Dawkins may have said, and evolutionary theory (or fact) sheds no light on either side of the question.
It’s ironic but true that because the existence of God might conceivably be proven (although probably not by man), a theory that God doesn’t exist is falsifiable, and therefore could be scientifically valid.
OTOH, since the non-existence of God cannot be proven, a theory that God does exist is non-falsifiable, and therefore can not be a scientifically valid theory.
Odd, but them’s the rules.
There is no scientific evidence to support either idea. I’m open on the matter.
“The press is so powerful in its image-making role that it can make a criminal look like he’s the victim and make the victim look like he’s the criminal. If you aren’t careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”– Malcolm X, Audubon Ballroom, December 13, 1964
flagstaff...go back through and read the thread...
Aaron Gardner (Diary) Tuesday, May 12th at 12:06PM EST (link)I am not trying to discredit evolution…I just want people in the scientific community to reject the notions of people like Dawkins…he is the Owl Gore of Evolution…good for no one in the debate.
I don’t deny evolution, I question some of the parts, but so should any inquisitive mind…especially scientists. I question the idea of time as a constant. I question the possibility of evolution and the big bang being mechanisms of a Creator. I question the idea of spirituality beyond the human existence.
I use philosophy and science to form a prudent reasonable opinion based on what is known, what is unknown, and what is presumed due to records of observation.
I hope that clears some things up for people.
conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!
“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat
Follow @Aaron_RS
I read it carefully the first time.
Flagstaff (Diary) Tuesday, May 12th at 3:20PM EST (link)You can see that my comment implied nothing about your beliefs. It was entirely centered on the “existence of God” question, with the addition of the obvious observation that nobody is answerable for Dawkins’s opinions but Dawkins. Nor, I might add, does anybody here have a responsibility to convince the “scientific community to reject the notions of people like Dawkins.”
I was moved to write because of this exchange:
Aaron to nonsequitur:
Then exitsfunnel replied:
That isn’t an unfair question, given that your comment implied that a tactic used by “his side” was general knowledge and in general use. I wasn’t aware of it myself.
Your response,
buzzwords aside, is an inaccurate statement about evolutionary theory.
Thanks for your explanatory reply to me. I found your previous comments a bit confusing, especially compared to those you were responding to.
You said, “I use philosophy and science to form a prudent reasonable opinion based on what is known, what is unknown, and what is presumed due to records of observation.” I think we more or less all do that, in our own way. I don’t know what else we can do.
“The press is so powerful in its image-making role that it can make a criminal look like he’s the victim and make the victim look like he’s the criminal. If you aren’t careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”– Malcolm X, Audubon Ballroom, December 13, 1964
If you really think that is true, i.e., that the theory of evolution
papalee Monday, May 11th at 10:40PM EST (link)underpins all of the academic biology of the last 70 years, you have not spent a great deal of time around scientists. There are those who do not accept it as scientific fact and have developed some rebuttals, but the fascist goverment of establishment science makes it impossible for the questions to be discussed rationally at this time.
It isn’t my field but I have spent enough time at dinner tables with first rate scientists (my father in law was with Manhattan project) to know that all is not as it seems.
Then why is the question always "Do you believe in evolution?"
Jack_Savage (Diary) Monday, May 11th at 3:43PM EST (link)Your side constantly and consistently conflates origin of life with the theory of evolution, and our side constantly and consistenly falls for it.
Now a question for you, exitsfunnel.
Do you believe in God?
I do not
exitsfunnel Monday, May 11th at 4:05PM EST (link)I do not believe in any sort of a personal god.
-exits
What does that mean?
Jack_Savage (Diary) Monday, May 11th at 4:20PM EST (link)You don’t believe in a “personal god”? Care to explain the difference?
Atheist
exitsfunnel Monday, May 11th at 4:27PM EST (link)It’s probably easier and more accurate to just describe myself as an Atheist.
-exits
OK - I got it
Jack_Savage (Diary) Monday, May 11th at 5:14PM EST (link)So you are intellectually honest about this whole thing, and I understand. I will say that if you think this was all one big accident, and that we came from nothing and are going nowhere, you have a whole lot more faith than I do.
Thanks.
Convince them!?
nonsequitur (Diary) Monday, May 11th at 3:44PM EST (link)Heh, that is easier said than done….
Evolution is a good theory, but it does not account for the creation of life either, just its progression. The merging of the two is a mistake made by too many bandwagon secularists looking for self justification. So strike that one out as well. Personally, I despise such band wagoners to my own beliefs while I find a certain level of mutual respect with my opposition.
At least intellectual opponents stand for something that they have researched and struggled with. 16 year old pseudo-leftists simply latch on in a form of self rationalization. They come to a ‘cool’ conclusion and then look for evidence. It gives us true atheists a bad name. They couldn’t even defend their beliefs if asked.
Regardless, I do not know or claim to know what is the origin of the universe. Big bang theory is interesting, if only because it describes a situation which accounts for this uncertainty.
If the universe was born from a singularity, than there is no need to account for why or how. Within a singularity, the laws of physics as we know it do not exists. The very cause/effect relationship itself breaks down. To try and find what caused time is like trying to find something more north than the north pole. Time as we know it did not exists before the singularity expanded.
However, this is a conversation for a different board. The politics of the issue is: lets teach real science to our children, and leave the unknowns for them to tackle in college. Isn’t that the conservative approach? What is the rush to indoctrinate children anyway? Why should the state play any role in defining the *origin* of life?
ID shouldn’t be taught in high school, but evolution should not be construed as the beginning of life either. Whats wrong with saying we just do not know yet? Thats how I was taught politics. There is no right answer. And I found my own logical conclusions in libertarian theory without being held to cookie cutter litmus tests. I feel I am intellectually better for it.
Veritas Lux Mea
I hear ya nonsequitor...
Aaron Gardner (Diary) Monday, May 11th at 3:51PM EST (link)I shouldn’t have said your side so much…old habits..
Even the Big Bang can be seen as a tool used by God so I don’t even mind that theory, what I do mind it the way the school teaches these theories in the public school. They mash them all together and teach them as fact, leaving out any mention of the why this happened. And I know this sound like a philosophical question but I think science and philosophy are symbiotic in their relationship.
Right now the children are lead to believe that science can explain the origins of life, when it can’t..it can extrapolate from known data the general origins of most lifeforms.
conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!
“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat
Follow @Aaron_RS
Agreed.
nonsequitur (Diary) Monday, May 11th at 4:02PM EST (link)Science cannot explain the origins of life, and that should be noted in every biology class. I know my teacher did.
His words, paraphrased of course: “I can’t tell you how life started. Best I can do is show how we think it developed. As far as what made that first cell, figure it our yourselves. Just promise me you’ll give me a shout out after your 11th Nobel Prize.”
And that was that. No questions of god, or religion, or blasphemy. Just focus on what we know, and piqued curiosity for us to find our own answers to the rest. Should thank that teacher sometime. Best one I’ve ever had.
It is shameful that evolution is conflated in such a way to be the theory of life. And that should be fought. Forcefully. But the best way to succeed, in my opinion, is a statement of humble ignorance, not competing “theories” from both sides. Thats what should be mandated, if anything.
Veritas Lux Mea
You were indeed fortunate ...
skorrent1 (Diary) Monday, May 11th at 7:54PM EST (link)In your biology teacher, whom you may or may not have chosen. It would be even more rare if your biology taxt were not full of the hoaxes of evolution such as the “Tree of Life” that was completely falsified by the evidence of the “Cambrian Explosion”, the Haekel (sp?) sketches of embrios that were discredited a century ago but still are published, and the “Ascent of Man” sketches that are little more than the figment of an artist’s immagination. If “150 years of affirmation of evolution” has produced nothing better than these to begin the indoctrination into the religion of Darwinism, it truly requires a leap of faith disguised as “science.”
evolution "science" is a leftist indoctrination tool
RborisT (Diary) Monday, May 11th at 9:35PM EST (link)Another example: “life” created in a test tube! They still teach the idea that life can arise from non life (ala lightning in the primordial soup- quite anti-scientific) and quote as “proof’ that 50 year old experiment which supposedly created “life” in test-tubes. Taken altogether, as it IS taught in school, the whole idea is to make people believe that God does not exist, and therefore, among other things, there is no right or wrong, nor any restraint on the actions of the government.
I love to hear from big bang proponents as well. What was the origin of that initial spec of matter? Magic? Something from nothing?
Your faith surely exceeds my own.
Evolution = Scientology Religions Creation Theory
JLenardDetroit (Diary) Monday, May 11th at 9:58PM EST (link)but the need to keep Religion out doesn’t apply in that/this case.
If Intelligent Design is just a Religious Creation Theory, according to the left that means it can’t be taught/discussed… then neither should the Scientology Religion Creation Theory of Evolution be allowed
I still highly recommend seeing Ben Stein’s “Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed” Documentary expelledthemovie.com.
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That was the point behind the article.
realityunwound (Diary) Tuesday, May 12th at 2:23PM EST (link)This topic polarizes, and the polarization illustrates the point. That what “might not” be is taught dogmatically as “what is,” and any attempt at all to ask the question, “what if…” is often met with abuse.
I think science & philosophy MUST be symbiotic, unless everything is random and chaotic. If there is order (science), why (philosophy)?
http://www.realityunwound.com
Next thing you know, we'll be crowing
blooch Monday, May 11th at 3:11PM EST (link)about winning seats on the Alexandria City council. Some of the cooler heads here better put a lid on all of this concern with trivial non-events. Please folks, look at the shiny objects only!
/snark off
“Lieutenant Dike wasn’t a bad leader because he made bad decisions. He was a bad leader because he made no decisions.”
The classic "Concern Troll"
Jack_Savage (Diary) Monday, May 11th at 3:46PM EST (link)“Really guys, wouldn’t “our” side be better served if we took on someone with more substance? I know this article is easily refuted, and you have done so, but can’t we pick someone who, say, writes for Newsweek?”
Deliver me, oh Lord.
Nope Joseph, not about an editorial
realityunwound (Diary) Tuesday, May 12th at 12:31PM EST (link)Read the article, it’s an illustration of the tone and tactics in liberal “refutation.”
http://www.realityunwound.com
By the way, Republicans ARE anti-science
JosephP Monday, May 11th at 2:53PM EST (link)How do you think Dr. James Hansen, PhD in Physics and NASA’s senior climate scientist, felt when he discovered that his research was being rewritten and edited by a twenty-something former Bush campaign worker named George Deutsch (who later was forced to resign after it was revealed that he lied on his resume and did not graduate from Texas A&M)?
Blew an account for that? (nt)
Neil Stevens (Diary) Monday, May 11th at 2:54PM EST (link)RS contributing editor, technical administrator, and “a hardy variety of crabgrass.”
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Awful quick with that banhammer...
leftylurker (Diary) Monday, May 11th at 3:04PM EST (link)Glad I registered in more gentle times.
Door's over there if you don't like it (nt)
Neil Stevens (Diary) Monday, May 11th at 3:07PM EST (link)RS contributing editor, technical administrator, and “a hardy variety of crabgrass.”
Read the RedState Posting Rules
Unlikely Voter: Poll Analysis, Election Projection.
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Jumping into a gun fight with a knife is not a recommended survival strategy -nt-
civil truth (Diary) Monday, May 11th at 3:08PM EST (link)The greatest evil…is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried, and minuted) in clean, carpeted, warmed, and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voice. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the offices of a thoroughly nasty business concern. -C.S. Lewis
http://www.gmsplace.com/
It's called a Blamstick here. (nt)
blooch Monday, May 11th at 3:15PM EST (link)“Lieutenant Dike wasn’t a bad leader because he made bad decisions. He was a bad leader because he made no decisions.”
Sorry, got confused
leftylurker (Diary) Monday, May 11th at 3:20PM EST (link)I generally only see it from the business end. =)
Just for the record
Skanderbeg (Diary) Monday, May 11th at 3:12PM EST (link)Just for the archival record, James Hansen is a political operative (despite his degree) and a buffoon who has been caught doctoring data (by “accident” of course), has been making completely WRONG predictions for 20 years, and now demands prosecution of those who disagree with him.
Hardly a man of science.
5
Finrod (Diary) Monday, May 11th at 3:29PM EST (link)And to think, that guy blew a 2-year-old+ account just on this article alone.
You’re spot-on regarding Hansen. He’s been peddling broken graphs and theories for a long time now.
Let’s get down to brass tacks here. How much for the ape?
Science vs. Intelligent Design
Steve Maley (Diary) Monday, May 11th at 3:30PM EST (link)Science can make all kinds of extrapolations back in time, up to about a trillionth of a second after the Big Bang. Before that, it’s utterly useless, and I think any scientist would have to agree.
“What caused the Big Bang?” is a metaphysical question. That’s where ID can play a role.
For the record, I don’t think ID or Creationism should be taught in schools. Teach evolution as a theory, and teach kids to think for themselves.
The blogger formerly known as ‘Vladimir’.
Why not both?
wennejunk (Diary) Monday, May 11th at 4:35PM EST (link)Just not in science class.
Teach scientific theory in science class. That is one channel for teaching the thinking process.
Teach ID in a philosophy, world religions or logic class. That is another channel.
Let kids know that religious faith and math/science are mutually exclusive.
Not a problem from my perspective. Lots of serious scientists are believers of various faiths, including that of Atheism. They are still excellent scientists and researchers.
There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, ‘Thy will be done,’ and those to whom God says, in the end, ‘Thy will be done.’ -C. S. Lewis
You've just begged the question
civil truth (Diary) Monday, May 11th at 4:40PM EST (link)ID and creationists claim they’re advocating a scientific theory. To relegate it to philosophy, etc, is supercillious. Take them or reject them on their merits as science, but don’t try to do an end run.
The greatest evil…is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried, and minuted) in clean, carpeted, warmed, and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voice. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the offices of a thoroughly nasty business concern. -C.S. Lewis
http://www.gmsplace.com/
Re: You've just begged the question
exitsfunnel Monday, May 11th at 5:02PM EST (link)What you say makes sense, but I don’t know that there isn’t an advantage to covering the creationist stuff somewhere in the curriculum outside of the science classroom. My educational background is physics and as such I didn’t take even a semester of biology in college. Everything I know about evolution (which is I think a fair amount) I’ve learned specifically in the context of the id/creationism -vs- evolution debate. So I know more about biology than I would if it weren’t for the religious push to get creationism into schools. Maybe this is one argument for teaching the stuff somewhere.
-exits
but philosophy and sciance aren't mutually exclusive really..
Aaron Gardner (Diary) Monday, May 11th at 4:46PM EST (link)I know you said religious faith, but I wanted to include the whole area of philosophy.
Philosophy and Science are linked because they overlap in their foundation, they are both the serch for truth, just different types of truth.
All too often we remind ourselves of the limitations of philosophy while ignoring the limitations of science.
If we go back to the point of teaching that those limitations exist equally in both subjects we would be far better off.
Additionally philosophy will no doubtedly affect science in the form of ethics. This can be seen in today’s wold in the debate over ESC research. The ethics of science has been dehumanized to the point that scientists actively persue the eating of the seed corn. Idiotic. All because of a philosophical shift that, at it’s essence, devalues human life by rejecting with absolute certainty the existence of a higher power.
Science then because unleashed from morality and ethics and the world welcomes the like of sanger who’s ideas further get used to encourage and affect a genocide the likes we have not since seen.
/rant off
conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!
“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat
Follow @Aaron_RS
sorry for all the typos...I wasn't paying attention there...nt
Aaron Gardner (Diary) Monday, May 11th at 4:49PM EST (link)conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!
“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat
Follow @Aaron_RS
Science/Philosophy inform each other.
IL_Glock21 (Diary) Monday, May 11th at 11:25PM EST (link)I’m a proponent of allowing ID and creationism topics in philosophy courses but against them being taught as part of science due to my own views of science being limited by topics related to observable phenomenon as opposed to any supernatural explanation, whether religious or otherwise.
But I consider that limitation on scientific coursework to be a philosophical one, generally derived from the scientific method, in humanities attempt to explain the mysteries of the universe by separating themselves, at least in spirit, from the various supernatural explanations that used to suffice.
I consider it a profound philosophical question, similar to ethical restraints on science that stem from philosophy, whether or not some ID based testing or experimentation could or should be considered valid.
Similarly, whether or not a majority in a local community should be able to elect to teach both seems to be both a political and scientific philosophy issue. For many that seems to be a no-brainer. To many others who’d consider that respecting an establishment of religion, it’d be on par with a local community voting on whether or not they have free speech rights, or other 14th Amendment incorporated liberties.
And of course the reverse is true. Some scientific observation that confirms, or at least seems to confirm a previously unverified theory may throw some philosophical questions back into turmoil. We’ve seen this happen from everything from religious doubts to political disputes like abortion where findings are used by both sides to depict either how barbaric or inconsequential various techniques may be.
Origin of life theories in science may seem little different than philosophical ones at this point since no scientific testing has been able to observe/confirm a likely scenario. But that’s their limitation. Philosophers attempting to show some supernatural cause are at a loss to get much acceptance by their scientific peers because most of their work focuses on either disproving or casting doubt on scientific theories (as opposed to proving their own). Much of the rest is pretty blatantly philosophical, logic based arguments meant more to persuade than to confirm or observe through the scientific method.
One main example of this is the odds game. “What are the odds life originated without some supernatural impetus?,” is the typical question put forth, with all sorts of mathematical estimations. Of course the odds of something happening that did happen are 1, ie 100%. It’s the scientists job to find a natural cause and provide observable evidence that makes that likely. A philosopher’s job is to find logical explanations and even question whether the scientific method is suitable to answer such a question.
Now if fire and brimstone start raining down one day with a booming voice out of the sky full of ‘i told ya so’s then what was once considered supernatural to the scientific community would become observable, testable, and natural. Until then the ancient accounts of spectacular phenomenon are generally ignored, as such explanations, clever as they may be, were often as numerous and varying across cultures as they were spectacular.
Until then I remain a strong advocate of keeping science too limited to deal with the supernatural and ensuring that philosophy holds a prominent role in ensuring that people think beyond the scientific bubble, and all bubbles, with critical thought.
_____________________________________________
- “Make love not war? Real men can do both!”
NOT Exclusive
wennejunk (Diary) Tuesday, May 12th at 5:50AM EST (link)Aaron, you are correct. I was tired and missed that when I proofread my post above.
I meant to clearly say that science and religious faith are NOT mutually exclusive and the ‘not’ somehow vanished from my typing.
Apologies for giving the wrong impression.
There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, ‘Thy will be done,’ and those to whom God says, in the end, ‘Thy will be done.’ -C. S. Lewis
This is the philosophy of science
realityunwound (Diary) Tuesday, May 12th at 2:30PM EST (link)“teaching the scientific method, etc.) Which I think generally would be more fruitful in the long term than simply indoctrinating, one way or the other.
There’s still a problem with saying that math/science & faith are mutually exclusive. They’re just not. They must inform. To say they don’t begs the question of which is real, or which is authoritative. Intellectual integrity requires that we be philosophically and scientifically on the same page.
http://www.realityunwound.com
evolution should stay out of the science class too
monk (Diary) Tuesday, May 12th at 2:56AM EST (link)that’s fine if they keep evolution out of the science class as well. At least, all the historical science that uses layer upon layer of assumptions to interpret a few observations into an entire history of the world.
Micro-evolution is science, macro-evolution is not.
Teaching anything scientific as dogma is wrong.
Steve Maley (Diary) Tuesday, May 12th at 8:43AM EST (link)The problem is, it’s easy to teach the rigidity of a fact than the nuance of a theory.
There’s probably no better example of what a scientific theory is than evolution. Not teaching it handicaps kids in the modern world.
Teaching evolution as dogma also handicaps kids, but unfortunately 80% of the teachers are too lazy or don’t know the difference themselves.
The blogger formerly known as ‘Vladimir’.
No better example? Possibly, if ...
skorrent1 (Diary) Tuesday, May 12th at 9:47AM EST (link)You stick to micro-evolution, and include the aspects of intelligently-directed change (genetic engineering). But if you stick to random-chance, “Origin of Species” type arguments in defining the theory of evolution, as most texts and teachers do, then you do your students a serious disservice.
It muddys the waters to...
realityunwound (Diary) Tuesday, May 12th at 2:36PM EST (link)teach “evolution” without distinguishing micro- from macro-. Well done.
http://www.realityunwound.com
History Lesson 101
Jack (Diary) Monday, May 11th at 3:42PM EST (link)What the left routinely fails to acknowledge is that Charles Darwin was a deeply religious man. In letters to his family prior to departing England on his famous trip he wrote that his journey would prove the existence of God.
There was nothing on his trip or anything afterwards that caused Darwin to disbelieve in the existence of God. In letters to his pastor he actually stated that his research did prove the existence of God.
Jack
“If at age 20 you are conservative you have no heart. It at age 30 you are liberal you have no brains.” Sir Winston Churchill
Quite true.
nonsequitur (Diary) Monday, May 11th at 3:53PM EST (link)Evolution has nothing to do with disproving God, or explaining the origins of life.
If anything, a theist could take it to mean that God created primitive life and allowed it to propagate on its own.
There are those that try to explain the origins of life with evolution, but that is just as much pseudo-science as anything else. Evolution is merely a theory for the development of life, not its creation. Such a distinction should be made by *both* sides.
Veritas Lux Mea
liberalism=anti-intellectualism
gonzo55 (Diary) Monday, May 11th at 5:01PM EST (link)You state your belief that we probably didn’t evolve from freak moneys, and you’re a “wingnut”. You state that humans were inarguably designed for male-female procreation and that you don’t have much sympathy for the NAMBLA crowd and you’re a “superstitious fag-basher”. You quote Genesis to the effect that God gave us dominion over the planet, you’re “anti-environment” (yes, I obviously want that nasty environment to shrivel and die just because I don’t ride a bike to work and wear hemp). Maybe they’re right on one or more of these, but science is about discussion of different beliefs, not being told what the “empirical evidence shows” and demanded at gunpoint to immediately believe in it.
“Facts are stubborn things” — Ronald Wilson Reagan
right
monk (Diary) Tuesday, May 12th at 2:58AM EST (link)argument from intimidation is a confession of intellectual impotence.
And the tone of the argument was kind of the point
realityunwound (Diary) Tuesday, May 12th at 11:27AM EST (link)Intelligent design is a great tool to draw it out. You should have seen my inbox this morning, I was absolutely savaged! It made the point, the left is generally incapable of holding a civilized conversation without it degenerating.
http://www.realityunwound.com
Paragraph 4 is also just plain Wrong
Raven (Diary) Monday, May 11th at 7:27PM EST (link)“Scientific theories are not purely speculative, however. Evolution, like the theory of gravitation or the germ theory of disease, is supported by an enormous body of evidence that has withstood repeated testing. Darwin’s theory is foundational to the biological sciences, which would otherwise be incoherent.”
The problem is that Evolution is Not supported by any evidence, whatsoever.
The theory of Natural Selection, on which Evolution is based, is heavily supported and can be virtually accepted as a given. But proving Natural Selection does not prove Evolution.
“If you do not have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.”
Luke 22:36
What "scientific" theory of intelligent design?
settingsun (Diary) Tuesday, May 12th at 1:46AM EST (link)First off, I absolutely agree the left politicizes science. Just observe what Obama and Reid have pulled on Yucca Mountain.
That said, I don’t know exactly what you are referring to when you claim a scientific theory of intelligent design.
Leading ID advocate Paul Nelson doesn’t seem to think one exists:
The left is the least of the ID community’s problems. The most devastating blow to ID was dealt by Judge John Jones in Kitzmiller vs. Dover. Jones was a Rick Santorum recommended and George W. Bush appointed conservative federal district court judge.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmiller_v._Dover_Area_School_District
Here’s just a brief sample of Jones’ ruling:
I would agree that conservatives can get real traction holding the Left’s feet to the fire on their politicization of science. However, ID is the last argument we would want to use in that critique.
I'm not quite following you here
tcgeol (Diary) Tuesday, May 12th at 2:38AM EST (link)How does Jones’ ruling affect the science in relation to ID? I’m not trying to argue here, I really can’t follow your reasoning that one judge’s opinion is a huge blow to ID.
Just your typical bitter gun- and God-clinger
Even the Left admits we’re Right
tcgeol: see my Dover post below, it was meant be a reply to you
settingsun (Diary) Tuesday, May 12th at 8:55AM EST (link)sorry…fat fingered mistake
The Dover trial gave ID advocates what they claimed they always wanted
settingsun (Diary) Tuesday, May 12th at 8:53AM EST (link)– a neutral setting.
ID advocates not only couldn’t provide any evidence for the scientific validity of ID, they had to admit that the only way ID could ever be considered scientific is to redefine science itself And ID advocate Michael Behe had to admit on the stand that his definition of science would allow astrology to be considered scientific.
nonsequitur covered the difference between a falsifiable scientific theory and a tautology (which ID always was and was clearly revealed to be in the Dover trial) above.
http://www.redstate.com/realityunwound/2009/05/11/liberals-are-anti-science-reading-between-the-lines-of-intellectual-bullying/#comment-92
Again, this trial was only about what gets taught in public school science classes. I don’t believe it negates in anyway a discussion about larger metaphysical questions which I personally believe all students would benefit from if discussed in a philosophy class or other social science setting.
Let's see, are you suggesting ...
skorrent1 (Diary) Tuesday, May 12th at 10:18AM EST (link)That the “Dover Trial” is at least as important as the “Scopes Trial”? Scopes lost that one, as I recall. So we have: God-1 / Monkeys-1. Now can we stop the stupid litigation and get back to science?
Macro-evolution has some serious flaws in biology as well as in the spin-offs of geology and astrophysics. ID offers an alternate theory, but has serious limitations in that it is explanitory but not predictive. In searching for a better, more explanitory, theory, the current limitation is the dogmatic refusal of the dominent Darwinists to admit that they have a problem. ID is a pointed stick that may prod them to do some real science, for a change.
A couple points for consideration...
settingsun (Diary) Tuesday, May 12th at 12:22PM EST (link)Clearly that is your language and not mine. As has been stated several times in this thread, evolutionary theory has nothing to do with theological or metaphysical questions. Acceptance of evolution should have no impact on whether or not you believe in God.
For clarification, creation science was also discredited McLean v. Arkansas and by the Supreme Court in Edwards v. Aguillard.
Not sure how you would score those…
I think science teachers would like nothing more. If professional ID advocates would stop trying to force their religious tautology into public school science classes there would be no litigation.
There are most certainly unanswered questions about speciation and common descent and particularly the role played by RNA and DNA. But just because specific questions have yet to be answered, that does not invalidate the evolutionary framework.
Macro-evolutionary theory is the only current scientific framework that allows us to explain things like atavisms and vestigial traits — most famously human tails and hind limbs found in live wales and dolphins.
Macro-evolutionary theory also allows us to predict the existence of transitional fossils such as Tiktaalik (to give just one example).
The bulk of macro-evolutionary verification has been done on the molecular level in just the last couple decades. Here macro-evolutionary theory allows us to hypothesize (again, just one example) that even though humans and other primates can’t synthesize Vitamin C (which is why sailors get scurvy) but most of the animal kingdom can, that we would still find the gene for synthesizing Vitamin C in humans. In fact that gene was found but was inactive as it was in other primates. This is exactly what we would expect if common descent was valid.
As for problematic “spinoffs” in geology and astrophysics, I’m not sure what you are referring to. Can you clarify?
Okay, thanks, I can follow that
tcgeol (Diary) Tuesday, May 12th at 12:00PM EST (link)I don’t believe that it was a neutral setting, because there is no such thing as neutrality for a subject such as this. That doesn’t really metter, though, because the opinion of a given judge really is irrelevant in the matter.
Not to rehash your earlier thread, but I’m fine with not teaching intelligent design as science. However, since evolutionary theory is also unfalsifiable, it shouldn’t be taught either as more than basic natural selection within kinds. The one can’t be proven any more than the other. There is nothing wrong with saying that we can’t scientifically prove the origin and development of life.
Just your typical bitter gun- and God-clinger
Even the Left admits we’re Right
Conservatism is doomed
Gkyluig Wednesday, May 13th at 11:46AM EST (link)as long as this kind of nuttery passes for intelligent discussion. I guess some people can’t help being anti-science when they have no idea what science is or how it works.
This kind of ignorance is dangerous, especially when it leads to trying to use government to push these ignorant religious views on others through public schools. You can’t have both ID and the first amendment, so it’s sad to see so many so-called conservatives tossing out the latter at the first opportunity.
IDers need to either learn science join the John Birchers in the ditch. I for one am done with RedState if this is the kind of insanity that it’ll be pushing.
—-
I was born in a welfare state
Ruled by bureaucracy
Controlled by civil servants
And people dressed in grey
Got no privacy, got no liberty
Cos the twentieth century people
Took it all away from me
— The Kinks, “20th Century Man”
Don't let the doorknow hit you in the butt.
Achance (Diary) Wednesday, May 13th at 11:54AM EST (link)And, I’m not even one of the religious people here. I’m just not so ignorant and arrogant as to think that my ideas are superior to theirs. You obviously are.
In Vino Veritas
well frankly, not sure if we want such a close minded person on this site anyway
kyle8 (Diary) Wednesday, May 13th at 11:55AM EST (link)You are right in one sense. ID is not really science since it can never be proven. However, to never mention that there are many SCIENTISTS who believe that there might be an intelligent design rather than pure randomness would simply be ignoring the truth.
It is also somewhat disconcerting to hear people like yourself who are so sure of your own views and yet you believe that all of the incredible complexity of the universe and life itself just sort of happened. That my little man takes no intelligence, but it does take a lot of FAITH.
But you only want your faith taught in schools right?
“Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty”
Kyle
If you want to teach ID...
I do not apologize when I do something wrong. Thursday, May 14th at 2:12PM EST (link)…you can have it in a Comparative Religion class, a Philosophy class, or even a Political Science/Current Events class, but it isn’t science.
By the same token, Darwin’s theory of evolution speaks only to how species develop and differentiate, NOT how life itself originated. Evolutionary biology is science, pure and simple, with a huge amount of supportive evidence. ID is not falsifiable, cannot be proven definitively, and rests well outside the scientific method. (passing shot: is the creation of new forms of life through genetic manipulation a help or hindrance to ID argument?) Then, again, I don’t hear too many evolutionary biologists arguing that Darwin’s theories encompass the Big Bang theory; cosmology is WAY over there, and biology is WAY over here…
Finally, you do yourself a disservice by using the theory of gravity as a comparison to ID. Newton’s original theories were subject to testing; in fact, they were used to predict the existence of planets and moons before their physical observation. They were also falsifiable; observations that did NOT fit Newton’s theory ultimately exposed its flaws, which were reconciled by Einstein in his work with general relativity. ID simply cannot match the testing, observations, and refinements that the scientific method applied to the theory of gravity.
Evolutionary biology is science. ID is not.
This is my site, which I did not reveal to you because I actually think that you’re all knuckle-dragging theocrats.