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Baggage check: Who is really our best candidate?

By: RealQuiet (Diary)  |  October 21st, 2011 at 01:58 PM  | 

RESIZE: AAA

As this presidential nomination fight is heading into the election year, the above question really will be the determining factor in whom the GOP voter will cast their vote for to take on Barack Obama.  There is no question that all the candidates have noticeable flaws, some more than most.  But in the end, who really is best?  The final four candidates that I am seeing for the GOP nomination are:  Mitt Romney, Rick Perry, Herman Cain, and Newt Gingrich.  Not really a bad field to choose from.  Not lets take a look at the following candidates:

Mitt Romney

I have made no qualms about my reservations about Mitt.  By all observation, he seems to be a self-ambitious public servant with an aristocratic streak, willing to say anything to be elected.  Harsh?  Maybe, yet truth in most cases never is gentle.  So here is Mitt’s baggage.

Support for global warming, ethanol subsidies, abortion flip flopping, Romneycare that Obamacare was modeled after, and recently questions with immigration that Rick Perry brought to light in recent debate.

Mitt’s record yields to a classical big tent political campaign for the presidency.  John McCain tried this in 2008 and got slaughtered.  This is the establishment’s flawed political model.  They are trying to control the outcome, manufacture a result.  They don’t like it when they cannot control the outcome.  And yet they are blinded that by adopting this political model, trying to dictate the outcome, that they do so at the cost of courage and principle.  They are banking that the conservative bloc will fall in line.  This isn’t happening anymore.  They would be well served to remember that the last president not to adopt this approach was Ronald Reagan.  What both of these men do not realize that the GOP’s power and enthusiasm lives with the conservative bloc.  If you alienate them by trying to reach across the middle, you will not be able to increase your support and stagnate at a certain level.  This is because there is no enthusiasm for the campaign.  Voters who hold their nose to vote for someone at the polls won’t be motivated to tell their friends who they are voting for and most importantly, generate that enthusiasm for their candidate to their friends and family.

One thing that I do wonder about.  Mitt Romney had the misfortune of being governor in a state where the opposing party had supermajorities.  I wonder how he would be with a GOP Senate and Congress.  History seems to indicate he would placate to the other side to try to retain his political office.  George W. Bush redux would then take place.

Rick Perry

The other very well funded candidate of this field.  My initial pick for the GOP nod.  Three-time governor of Texas who has passed conservative issues like torm reform, has increased jobs, and balanced budgets with keeping spending down.  The perfect candidate on the surface because his record is strongest where the election of 2012 really is about:  Jobs and the economy.  Perry does have his baggage:

Terrible debater who doesn’t think very well on his feet, Gardisil, and an apparent Achilles’ heel in the form of immigration.

Perception and impression is very important in politics.  Seeing Perry’s performances in these debates with save the exception of maybe the most recent has made me wince at the thought of him debating Obama.  The last thing we need is a candidate who will make Obama look good.

I consider Gardisil a non-issue now.  Perry felt very strongly about this issue but pulled back when the legislature challenged him.  This shows that Perry does listen and has restraint.  It also shows that he does keep his ego in check as well.

Immigration?  He hasn’t handled this well.  Also, he does appear to be like George W. Bush by mirroring the belief of compassionate conservatism.  Calling the people who will be voting for you who don’t agree with you heartless is a terrible gaffe of enormous proportion.  I don’t have a problem with someone wanting to immigrate to this country.   However, they have to play by the laws.  That means going through the legal process of becoming a citizen of this country.  Those whom try to shortcut the process by not following the laws are more likely to not abide by our country’s other laws.  So what if it takes a long time.  I’m actually glad it does.  It tests their commitment to see if they really are serious about wanting to become a citizen of this country.  I really like Rick, but he really has some difficult things to overcome.  The Flat Tax rollout could very well resuscitate his campaign.  We’ll see.

Herman Cain

What a great story this guy is.  Cancer survivor, not a politician, successful businessman, strong conservative, highly educated, great speaker and debater, bold ideas.  He does have some baggage:

Small infrastructure and organization, not a lot of money, and a bad case of sticking his foot in his mouth.  Poor answers with statements in interviews which indicates either a lack of discretion, poor answers that confuse voters as far as where his convictions lie and answers that highly reveal his lack of inexperience in the biggest political battle any politician will wage.

I really like Herman Cain.  However, I don’t know if he’ll ever catch fire from a fundraising standpoint.  It also does concern me how he will perform if he winds up winning the nomination.  I do have real concerns with him but, I just don’t know.  That just tells me how much of a wildcard that he really is.

Newt Gingrich

This guy is about skilled a debater, speaker, campaigner, and knowledgeable politician as they come.  He has been for the most part a solid conservative for many years.  He has had a lot of great ideas and has crossed swords with many a formidable foe.  However, he does have his flaws.  In this case I will yield this to an incredible diary and hat tip to wonkish1.  Also, some wonderful insight for the case for Newt is in another diary right here by J Leg.

Newt does have a particular problem with fundraising right now and his “right wing social enginnering” comment which undercut Paul Ryan a while back hurt his campaign a lot.  However, Newt has rebuilt himself quite well with his debate performances and now his platform rollout is getting some buzz.

If I had to make a guess right now, I would probably be leaning towards Newt Gingrich right now and I sure won’t vote for Romney in the primary but would swallow hard and vote for him in the general election.  I do know a LOT of GOP voters will not do so though.  I just relish the potential thought of a Gingrich/Rubio ticket and watching both those guys debate Barack Obama and Joe Biden.  That should make a liberal cringe. However, things could change.  January is not far away but a lot can still happen.  It is going to be an interesting couple of months.

COMMENTS

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  • Bill S

    I was thinking of writing one like this. You did a great job of it. I don’t think I have come to the quite the same conclusion as you – I still support Rick Perry as the least objectionable of the bunch. But Newt is up there in the top 2.

    • RealQuiet

      The reason why I lean Newt right now is simply because of how awful Perry has been in the debates. His free fall in the polling has been stunning but somewhat expected. Still some time left but the window is closing fast.

      • onemovoter

        I still think Perry will pull it out in the end for the GOP pick. If there are no real debates left before the primaries start up, that will work towards Perry.

        Also the debates will be distant memories to voters as well. I also look back to 2008 and the fight between McCain, Romney and Huckabee. I still couldn’t figure out why people were voting mostly for McCain over Romney. My problem was that I didn’t do my homework on Romney like I should have. It would have told me why then and why now he’ll fail again.

        In the end if Perry gets the nod, I think he’ll go to another Governor who he likes, Bob McDonnell of Virginia. It will give a fresh face to his campaign. I would love to see Newt as VP but the general public still has old memories of Newt that would be tough to overcome.

        • RealQuiet

          I like that ticket of Perry/McDonnell. Would definitely help put Virginia in our pocket and that is an important state. The consensus pick for VP is Rubio. However, he doesn’t seem to be interested. Judging by the rejections of Ryan, Christie, and Daniels holding firm, my bet is Rubio would say no to a VP nod.

          • MOT

            I like Perry and I like McDonnell

      • papabear

        In reverse order:

        8. Paul – he thinks Iran should be able to have nuclear weapons!!!
        7. Huntsman – the definition of RINO
        6. Santorum – despite his positions on the issues, he is so negative in his presentation, I do not see how he ever won an election. I would rather listen to Yoko Ono’s screeching @ 110 db in a POW training camp than hear him debate.
        5. Bachmann – aloof & disconnected from reality. I will grant that she has consistently taken conservative positions on nearly every issue I care about. However, she lost me with the HPV issue. I studied the timeline and videos from the debate and I am sure she lied about the supposed woman who came up to her talking about retardation. Bottom line? Transparently dishonest and pigheaded.

        For the most part, the polls seem to support my position (with the exception of Paul). None of these candidates will be serious contenders.

        4. Romney – as far as I can tell, he has one guiding principle – saying whatever it takes to get elected. If you can name an issue, I can find a point where he has taken each side of the issue. The good news is that a conservative House & Senate would provide some artificial spine for the Romneyfish (I apologize to any jellyfish that is insulted by this comparison).
        3. Perry – iIf Perry had been better prepared at the beginning, I would be a solid Perry supporter. However, his “launch” was all talk and no substance.
        The economic plan he just released is a start. I still have a heck of a problem with the whole immigration imbroglio. I don’t think I will ever be comfortable with the history of Perry’s immigration policy.
        2. Gingrich – Very articulate and intelligent. How could he ever take the position that man is seriously contributing to global warming? It is impossible for me to erase the image of he and Nancy Pelosi preaching about global warming while sitting together on a picnic bench. Add in the comments about right wing social engineering, However, like Romney, I think a (R) House and Senate would curb his occasional trips off the reservation.
        1, Cain – very intelligent, articulate, and able to inspire. I think he would do a fantastic job with business, industry, jobs, and regulation. He is also a gaffe machine. I think his lack of time in politics is both a blessing and a curse. He is not good at delivering a coherent message on issues that are not part of his core message. However, I think his team will be able to bring him up to speed. If they cannot, he will lose support long before Michigan’s primary

    • circlegranch

      because Cain has already said he wouldn’t serve with Perry which equates to, “I don’t care if the majority of Republicans voted Perry in as the nominee. I don’t care that my strengths would be of service to the nation. I don’t care that in our personal debate of differences we might well emerge as a finely tuned unstoppable machine. I don’t care that Perry’s got the best record of jobs and I don’t care that by comparison our tax reform plans actually have more similarities than not or at least, we’re both moving toward the same goal. I refuse to entertain a differing opinion even if by doing so I could play a historical role in saving this great nation. I don’t care and maybe that’s why I lost the nomination.”

      Gingrich, on the other hand, has said he’d serve with any of the other candidates which means, “I care about America and I care that we win the White House. I care enough to put aside petty disagreements and policy differentials. I care enough to accept with great humility the high office of Vice President of the United States. I will bring my vast knowledge, experience and historical perspective to this ticket and I will be the strength in areas where Rick Perry may be weak. I will be his top advisor and together, we will present bold plans for America using my background and political finesse and Perry’s undeniably strong record of jobs creation, lowering taxes small govt and tort reform. I will stand alongside and with enormous pride by the future president of the United States in saying “We will make Washington as inconsequential in your life as possible. I am committed to saving America and I will serve any president to the best of my ability if given the privilege. I will not let sophomoric attitudes or polictical power plays to interfere with that ambition.”

      Perry/Rubio would have been a dream team. Both are clearly not anti-Hispanic as some other candidates appear to hint as being. Rubio brings staunch, red meat conservatism to the campaign trail and he attracts the youth vote. But, he refuses to run (at this point) and Obama and his Smear Team are hard at work to dispute the possibility of Rubio being on the ticket.

      It would indeed be interesting to see Romney/Cain coming out early as a ticket vs Perry/Gingrich. The others are then relegated to ‘also ran’ status and line up behind whichever ticket promises them the most, post-election. What a refreshing way to finalize this primary race! We would truly get into the heart of issues, stop the distraction of political manuevering and if we presented two teams from which to choose and their platforms were given fair and equal coverage by the media, Americans would actually have a fair chance to vet, research and make decisions. Of course, this will never happen but those of us that are disgusted with the primary and debate process being circumvented this year by the changing of dates and biased questioning can still dream……….

      • acat

        Gingrich is 68, though. He would be 72 in 2016, and 76 in 2020. I don’t see him running for President from the Veep slot.

        I don’t know whether to list that as a positive or negative – on one paw, Newt would be free to be “off the leash”, applying his significant intellect on reforms without worrying about popularity.

        On the other paw, if we assume two Perry terms, 2020 would look more like a free-for-all to pick up the GOP nomination and continue the conservative wave.

        That said, nothing says Newt couldn’t or wouldn’t retire at 74, with Perry bringing a younger, conservative governor (perhaps Gov. Rubio of FL) on board…

        Mew

        • circlegranch

          it would be priceless because for once, Hannity would be speechless. I think Newt should seriously consider becoming a Perry supporter in one sense or another. Romney will never take him on because he knows Newt would upstage him, whereas Rick would say, “C’mon board, Brother, glad to have ya! I got the money and the current record and you got all that slick talk so let’s do this thing! By the way, y’all got any boots?”

          A key difference between Romney and Perry is that Perry is the guy that doesn’t care who gets the credit, only that the job gets done. When he debates now, we hear alot of “we” and not so much “I”. Romney rarely if ever says “we”.

          • izoneguy

            Newt Gingrich: Rick Perry’s book “almost came too late” [Foreward to "Fed Up!"]

            Devolving power out of Washington is critical to our long-term survival.

            Rick has done a great service by explaining how we got here and what we can do about it. His position as governor of Texas gives him a tremendous platform for helping us change course and return to sound conservative fiscal policies. But he can’t do it alone. Every American has a duty to rein in the out-of-control federal government. Fed Up! is your handbook. It will arm you with the facts so that you can inform your family, friends, and neighbors. An informed citizenry is the best tool we have in the arsenal to defend our Republic.

            Newt Gingrich, August 2010

        • westcoastpatriette

          maybe you can decipher better than I.

          The Republican Party in the city where I live just announced a 2011 Liberty and Presidential straw poll dinner with Meg Whitman as the main speaker. It is schedule for Nov. 5.

          Also, a few weeks ago, Perry was scheduled to have a meet and greet fundraiser here and it was cancelled at the last minute without any explanation.

          I am suspicious but not sure what to make of it. Romney and Meg were tight when she ran for governor here last year. What do you read into this?

          • acat

            Meg is still trying to throw her weight around in GOP circles … which is not all bad. That she’s tight with Mitt only matters in the primary.

            (the tragic part, to this cat, is how much more effective Meg could be in Washington State or Oregon, where there’s plenty of Red outside Seattle and Portland, but not enough green $$$ to make a splash … she should be able to easily unseat Cantwell, for example)

            Perhaps Perry decided that his time would be better spent elsewhere, that the ROI on Cali meet-and-greets is not sufficient?

            Mew

          • izoneguy

            that money will not always win elections.

            Maybe she is giving Mitt some pointers on how
            to only lose only $100 Million instead of $200 Million.

          • westcoastpatriette

            on his ticket should he win the primary.

            I was surprised to see her back on the political scene because she has remained really low-key since she took such a beating last election.

          • Tbone

            She has no business in politics.

          • acat

            She’d do fine further north… in part because she sold eBay for much more than Cantwell got for Real.

            Of course, Senator from Seattle is less sexy than Senator from Santa Barbara.

            Mew

          • westcoastpatriette

            ..

        • Xasteius

          we have that situation now with Bambi and Biden.

          • acat

            Who do they run if not Obama?

            Hillary? Richardson?

            Mew

          • Xasteius

            age differential between Bambi and Biden vs. Perry and Newt; I wasn’t attempting the rest of the apple, but if you really want my 2 cents:

            I think that the Democrats would only get rid of “Him” if he would shuffle himself off stage-left due to the black vote repercussions, but McEgo wouldn’t stand for that, so they that live by identity politics shall lose by identity politics. Hillary is the best chance they stand of winning this election with her “It wasn’t me!” defense.

            I’m leery of a Perry/Newt because Newt will pull his arm-twisting in the Congress (which will be needed because of the anti-Perry establishment mentality). And will what gets pushed through reflect what is actually needed?

            I personally think that whichever GOP candidate gets elected is a 1-termer because the next 4 years will involve economic withdrawal, and it won’t be pretty; no one in the race is close to Reagan.

          • acat

            Took 70+ to get here. Can’t fix it in a single term. *Might* be able to start turning. No way we’re gonna pull a 180 in that short of a time frame.

            One key reason why I like Perry (and liked Palin …) they both have competent Energy policies, and a good Energy plan will goose the rest of the economy .. maybe enough that the withdrawal symptoms will be muted.

            Mew

  • sallyb

    I agree with the last comment. My first choice is Rick Perry, followed by Newt Gingrich.

    The statement that a lot of GOP voters will not vote for Romney in the general election is CORRECT. That would include me. I would never vote for Obama, but can never see myself voting for Romney, even as the anti-Obama. He indirectly penned Obamacare. Really? Is that someone the GOP would nominate?

  • RealQuiet

    http://hotair.com/archives/2011/10/21/cain-for-low-income-families-itll-be-9-0-9/

    I’m getting the impression that Cain isn’t so sure of himself and his positions. Not a good thing to adapt a plan as a reaction against criticism during a campaign.

    • onemovoter

      but with lines through the 999 and 909 with 409 being the final.

      I started chuckling as soon as I saw it.

      • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

        nt

        • RealQuiet

          n/t

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            recent gaffes (I knew Cain was pro-life because I was a volunteer for his 2004 US Senate campaign) and the possible need to tweak 9-9-9. The empowerment zones should not be sold as a major lessening of the regressivity of the sales tax since it only aplies to the poor and low income living in said zones.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            the poor. Always thought this would be necessary.

          • izoneguy

            Maybe he can re-boot with 0-0-0?

            Cain Adds to ?9-9-9? Plan, Angering Unions

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            could peel off some votes in big northern swing state cities.

            Its time for all conservatives to coalesce around Herman for the general….kidding bro!

          • red_oakster

            nt

          • acat

            Leading it would be fine.
            So would veep.
            So would SecTreas or (devious mind) HUD or HHS.

            Mew

          • izoneguy

            Are you talking about Obama’s administration?

            I don’t think Rick has a slot for Cain now.

          • tyman

            nt

          • bzip

            Can you imagine Cain and Biden debate. I get dizzy just thinking about :-) .

          • tyman

            You said….

            Well, you said…

            You were incorrect when you said…

            And over again.

          • acat

            Reagan picked Bush 1.0, after all.

            Mew

          • izoneguy

            That was how great Bush 1.0 worked out.

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            …oh yeah, people voted for Perot.

          • acat

            that Perry’s new tax plan appeals to a big percentage of the FairTax types who are backing Cain.

            Or, to put it another way, I don’t think it’s a coincidence that Forbes is behind Perry instead of Cain.

            Mew

          • libdestroyer

            Perry is still a bad debater. He needs to get that working for him soon.

          • izoneguy

            So let that be a warning to Romney supporters

            92 election

            Clinton – 43%
            Bush – 37.5%
            Perot – 18.9%

          • acat

            how many contracts Clinton awarded to Perot Systems after ’92?

            Curious cats follow the money…

            Mew

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            A 3rd party vote is a vote for the Democrat. Staying home is half a vote for the Democrat. You’re either for the Republican or you’re against him.

          • politicalgal1

            According to Cain’s website: The 9% business tax is based on “Gross income less all purchases from other U.S. located businesses, all capital investment, and net exports.”

            So those of us who own small businesses that are labor intensive are SOL. No deduction for labor costs. The reduction of payroll taxes is a drop in the bucket.

            So those of us who manufacture here in the states but import products used in the manufacturing process are SOL because the purchase isn’t from a U.S. located business.

            And what exactly is a “purchase”?

            Our small business actually has a $30,000 increase in federal income tax under Cain’s plan.

            Perry’s Flat Tax plan will allow for deduction from gross sales for allowable costs: purchases of goods, services, and materials; wages, salaries and retirement benefits; purchases of capital equipment and land.

            Cain, I am sure, will have to come in and tweak his 9% business tax portion again and make the comment “It was always in the plan, even though it was omitted from my web site description.”

        • politicalgal1

          I watched his Detroit speech yesterday. No doubt he is a professional speaker. I think he has studied all of MLK’s past speeches. However, most of Cain’s speeches are high on style and very low in actual substance.

          Can someone explain to me the details for Cain’s plan for the blighted communities? If he had done his homework, he would have learned that the Federal government has had numerous programs via empowerment zones and other “zones” which have attempted to address this problem for years. And what is it exactly that is going to induce individuals to invest all that capital in these zones?

          • acat

            This is not nearly that simple a problem.

            There aren’t big, fully stocked grocery stores in parts of the south side. None for miles.

            Want groceries? There’s likely a mom-and-pop in the neighborhood, who charge a significant mark-up on the basics, and have only the basics for sale. Or, you can ride a CTA bus for half an hour or more. One way. With potentially screaming toddler. And you can only buy what you can haul home.

            WalMart would love to build a Superstore right in the middle of it .. but Chicago doesn’t want ‘em unless their employees can unionize. Ditto Target and the other stuff+groceries chains.

            Grocery chains in the area have been getting their lunches eaten by WalMart and Target and other stuff+groceries chains and can’t afford the loss..

            Can Herman Cain or anybody in D.C. fix this? Not sure an “empowerment zone” would help much.

            Mew

    • Scope

      if he offered 9 0 9 to all people under the poverty level, or if it is only for those living in the empowerment zones? I read that somewhere.

      No question the guy is not ready for the keys to the WH.

      In 08, there were so many warning signs when Obama was being vetted (by everyone but the MSM), that even though he didn’t have much of an elective record, and some very shady friends, he was a great orator. He promised hope and change. It would not be politics as usual. He was going to change Washington. The sun would come up every morning, the birds would sing, and there would be a chicken in every pot (or a steak on every grill). Everyone hoped for change, as they ignored his record and past.

      With Cain, he has no elective record to judge, he has been a gaffe machine, he has held some non-conservative positions, but he is a great orator. He’s worked for the past many years doing inspirational speeches, he has sold inspirational tapes, he believes that if you really believe in yourself and your inner powers, you can accomplish anything, including convincing 535 members of congress to pass his 999 plan, or maybe now 9 0 9. I see that as at least a little narcisistic. So very many are willing to do the same thing we did in 08, and vote again for Hope and Change II.

      Someone actually said that he made them “feel good” so they like him, and are supporting him for that reason. I’m shuddering.

      • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

        This is great news as 9-0-9 removes the regressivity problem and the zones are adirect assault on unions in big cities in swing states.

        • Tbone

          We have already seen this act before. Cain has no substance, no government experience and no business running for office.

          Why bother to vote for Cain when we already have that skill set in the White House?

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            I think the Tbone was was seriously under-cooked this morning to compare a good conservative and successful businessman like Cain to Obama. Borders on slander. “No” substance? Get real.

            Now I will sit back and endure the usual name calling and sweeping statements of “no” substance you inevitably resort to. Feel free to even write a diary with name-calling in the title.

          • Tbone

            other than run a second rate restaurant chain? The Chamber of Commerce and Rotary clubs are full of guys that have done that and more. You may as well vote for Trump.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            and much more. Much is in his book and if you will email me at mdevine@mikedevinelaw.com, I will find the 2-3 column links I have saved that document much more in his truly fascinating and eclectic life of accomplishments.

          • Xasteius

            In a business, everyone is working for the same goal (profit), and the CEO can do whatever he wants within the confines of that business. In politics, he will have to deal with no less than 535 people, at least half of whom may not cooperate with his agenda. Cain cracked a bit under the pressure on the last debate. Repeating 999 will not intimidate Congress any more than Yes We Can or Hope and Change.

            To emphasize Scope’s previous comment, the GOP is repeating the mistake of the Left in 2008 with the search for some combination of Jesus Christ and Ronald Reagan. I knew something was wrong with the country; I almost voted for Obama because he said all the right things. What woke me up was Obama’s mentor Rev. Jeremiah Wright, who was described as a profound influence on Obama’s character.

            I’ve seen Cain’s character through his words and it stinks. Accusing a fellow candidate of racism without ‘checking the facts’ (Cain apparently doesn’t apply the same standards to fellow candidates as opposed to world events), and others who have every excuse to pile-on (namely another candidate and the other party) defend you, that tells me a lot about Cain’s character. It is unacceptable for a conservative to play the race card; it is doubly unacceptable for an associate Christian minister to do so.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            even if its not Cain, but I think most all conservatives and Republicans hope that whoever we pick shares admiration for and hopes to emulate Christ and Reagan to some degree.

            I wrote one column denouncing what I deem to be an ugly tactic that Perry used and that I have denounced against other candidates in primaries every year there has been a primary during my writing career that started in 2001.

            Only this time did so many -bots come after me that I finally understood what a -bot is. It is sad when people get so attached to a mere mortal man. You can count on being disappointed whether its Dubya, Cain or Perry.

            I’m an issues guy and in between NFL kickoffs and the first pitch of Game Four of the World Series I’m going to return to that milleiu and try and write a column on foreign policy emphasizing how Obama’s actions, including the w/d from Iraq, always seem to appease Iran.

            Hopefully I will be safe from Mullah-bots! smile

          • izoneguy

            I was freelancing for a news station from Washington DC.
            This was my first real taste of how nasty liberals were.
            Everyone from the station was a hard-core lib.
            They were lamenting how bad things were since Reagan
            became President and they were all going to move to Canada
            if he was re-elected. It was a hoot. We interviewed many Senators
            and a few cabinet officials and the things said after these folks
            walked off would make your head spin. I would figure most of these
            folks probably voted for Obama and love that leftist feeling in the morning
            that they are bringing America down.

            If the choice is Obama vs. The flawed Republican candidate…..

            Give the flawed Republican candidate every time.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            than any Republican except maybe Ron Paul, and then only on the job of Commander in Chief, but that is dispositive to me since only a President can defend the nation.

        • joayn

          the poverty level. 9-9-9 still applies to those making above $22,000. and the empowerment/opportunity zone tax rate is another set of variables as yet to be determined.

          The 9-9-9 would have to stay in place to subsidize the other two.

      • joayn

        understanding of the changes are still 999 for above the poverty level ($22,000), 909 is for those below the poverty level, and another set for the opportunity/empowerment zones.

        So, basically, the 999 folks get to subsidize the other two.

      • libdestroyer

        I’m curious who you support. I’m sure whoever it is… he’s FLAWLESS!

    • bzip

      Cain is trying to compete with the plan that Perry will be releasing on Tues. The Flat Tax plan Perry work out with Forbes.

      Lets see, Perry gets in the race late has less time to work out a plan. Yet everyone is complaining that he hasn’t released any plans. Do you want a sloppy lousy plan done in a rush to please those complaining or do you want a good plan?

      So Perry takes his time and tries to get it right. Tues Perry will release his Flat Tax plan and hopefully all those complaining will stop but I suspect they will still complain – it came out to late or some other silly thing.

      • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

        He had several episodes of not defending it well and would have had to tweak it whether Perry was gonna go bold or not. Perry’s unveiling is obviously in response to falling behind Cain in the polls weeks ago due to 9-9-9 momentum for Cain.

        You in the wrong bzip code man.

        • bzip

          You sure a screwy one. If you didn’t know already Perry had already talk up the Flat Tax in his book Fed Up which came out long before Cain even entered the zip code.

          But personally I refuse to waste my time of a troll, I would rather ignore them.

          Oh, pending on where you look you can find all kinds of articles of Cain and what a lousy job he did with Godfathers going from a $300 million to a $30 million business under Cain. Who knows who is right but the media sure isn’t paying attention.

          Now, I’ll make it clear GameCock – you are a troll and a screwy ball. Good night and don’t let the door hit you in the…

          • lineholder

            you calling GC a troll!! LOL, not even close.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            /s/Michael gamecock DeVine nee Troll

          • bzip

            http://www.newsmax.com/InsideCover/US-Perry-Flat-Tax/2011/10/19/id/415096

            In his book, “Fed Up!” he suggests the flat tax as a possible policy prescription but doesn’t elaborate.

            “One option would be to totally scrap the current tax code in favor of a flat tax, and thereby make taxation much simpler, easier to follow and harder to manipulate,” Perry writes in his book. “Another option would be to repeal the Sixteenth Amendment to the Constitution (which authorizes the taxation of income) altogether, and then pursue an alternative model of taxation such as a national sales tax or the Fair Tax.”

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            and after reading many candidate campaign books over the past decade and finding them vacuous and vague, I discontinued the practice. I look at their websites and follow their campaigns. I reserve book reading for more substantive fare and I have read over 200 books/year for my entire life beginning at age 6.

            The main gist of Perry’s positioning before his announcement of his unveiling of a flat tax plan last week was:

            1) Fence straddling between FAIR and FLAT
            and
            2) Silence on all but Texas jobs and instate tuition

            But if it makes you feel all zippy to think yourself superior on all things Perry over this rooster, then have at it.

          • izoneguy

            If so – I give you a pass, I would not expect a lawyer to understand.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            conservatism. I like living in the izone with you guy!

          • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

            remember that under the Americans with Disability act, nearly everything from alcoholism to obesity to transvestism is considered a legal disability

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            Sadly, thx to Great Depression II and the end of major income from Real Estate and syndicated columns I am having to get back into general law practice for the first time in over 10 years.

  • onemovoter

    This is NOT GOOD for Cain, given the reaction with so many people going negative on the change in the 999 plan.

    Maybe this is why Perry is only going negative with Romney and barely negative with Cain, only saying he would compare tax proposals soon.

    • bzip

      In the the long run Cain has never been a threat that is why neither Romney or Perry pay too much attention to Cain. If you want to really compete and win the nomination you better have the resources, the ground structure and money. Does Cain have it, no maybe. If and when Cain ever became truly competitive then you would see Perry and Romney going after him.

      • Finrod

        We won’t have any quarterly updates until January, but rumor has it that the Cain campaign is pulling in $1 million/week currently, which should take care of any major financial problems.

      • libdestroyer

        I think Perry and Romney are underestimating the changing landscape of election politics. I think America is more anti-establishment than ever. I don’t think money/donors/endorsements are as important as substance. People seem to reward candidates who will drop the political-speak and tell it like it is. Cain is funded ENOUGH to get the job done.

    • Scope

      current supporters will eventually go back to him.

      • circlegranch

        Those of us that support Gov. Perry do so in large part, I believe, because of his consistency of being comfortable with who he is. He’s real, what you see is what you get, take it or leave it. He’s in this race because he believes he has answers to some of our problems. He’s relaxed and confident. The online article has lots more info than the hard copy found tucked inside your Sunday paper.

        It’ll be interesting to see if he can come back in spite of an obvious hatred from the media. He’s been misrepresented and taken hits from Day One. A lesser man would lose confidence.

        They say its better to have loved and lost then never to have loved at all. I think he believes he’ll give it everything he’s got and no matter the outcome, he can never look back and hold himself accountable for not trying. He can say that when the country teetered on collapse, he stepped up and offered to help. He’s stepping forward not because he’s entitled or because he thinks he has all the answers or that he’ll get every single decision right, but because he believes he’s the only one in the ring with current, relevant proven experience.

        I’d have to agree with that philosophy. Jobs are hard to come by these days. Consider each of these candidates walking through your door to interview. You lay the job description in front of them and then ask them to explain relevant experience they have for the major duties. Romney and Cain both have some relevant experience but not current. Cain hasn’t been sitting behind a CEO’s desk for 15 years. The world has changed a bit since then. Romney can’t decide what his strong points are so he says he’s strong on everything. He’s Mr. Perfect for the job, you can trust him on that. Sit through all the interviews and then invite in the last candidate, Rick Perry. He sits back comfortably in the chair, surveys the job description briefly, puts it aside and commences to tell you what he’s done at his last job. Yes, the job you’re offering is bigger, has differences but you’re looking for proven leadership qualities, a personality that is consistent and able to get people together to get things done. You need to see numbers and be given a list of references to call that can back up his claims. He’s got it all right there in a folder, hands it to you, stands and offers a handshake and tells you he’d be honored to come on board and do his best every single day. He can’t promise miracles but he can employ tactics that worked very well in his previous position and there’s tangible evidence to back up the success story. He doesn’t come across as desperate. He doesn’t talk fast and try to cram as many positives about himself in a sentence as he can. He knows he can do the job but he wants you to feel good about choosing him, too. If you decide to go w/ a lesser qualified candidate, he’ll be pleased for the chance to apply and interview. Good jobs are hard to come by these days. He knew he was up against stiff competition from the get-go. He leaves the interviewer’s office, knowing he was honest, realistic and didn’t embellish his resume to try and impress. He’s tried his best. The outcome now is in God’s hands; and that’s a place where Rick Perry is very comfortable.

      • libdestroyer

        can you back that up with anything? why is perry polling behind ron paul?

    • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

      no credibility

      • avagreen

        I’m against the 999 plan because it will raise taxes on the poor and middle-class while lowering taxes on the rich, and because it will defund SS and Medicare.

        http://useconomy.about.com/od/usfederaltaxesandtax/p/Flat-Tax.htm

        • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

          will pay ZERO income tax. SS and Medicare were de-funded years ago as there are no lock boxes. All federal taxes incl FICA and Medincare tax are used to pay all expenditures. The separate designations mean nothing as a practical matter except that they are regressive against the poor NOW.

          • Xasteius

            weeks of ’999′. Just to me, it seems a politically expedient response to Perry’s flat tax proposal, not a genuine ‘let me explain it’ moment. He hasn’t even updated his website with his new position.

            But the deeper revelation is that Herman Cain, despite his toted lack of political experience, has become like any other politician in his willingness to shift on the issues. I may not agree with Rick Perry on all his stands, but he does stand behind them.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            and yes, these are the animal called politicians that we are stuck with, the quality of which is limited due to all those that are not willing to beg for money 24/7 365 for years and endure the liberal and other media anal exams. Perry and the rest of the candidates haven’t had a major plan to stand on unlike Cain who took the risk of taking one that has a real chance of being a mandate that could pass and unleash the economy quickly.

            Cain has not shifted on the issues. He stands firm on the issue of throwing out the current tax code and drastically lowering rates. I think this competition is good. Cain’s plan has improved and Perry feels the need to have one that looks like it will be great too. Bravo our pathetic alternatives to total war ie pols!

          • kcdude

            I loved Reagan. He was nowhere near perfect but he was a great president. He could learn from mistakes and he knew how to bring the country into a issue to make his point. I see some of his traits in Cain. Like you, I continue to lean his way.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            He knows how to make a sale, and given the dire straits we are in, we need bold revolutionary change to turn the economy around. That won’t happen with business as usual with establishment Repubs in charge of the senate and house after a landslide election in which the GOP prez comes in with mere conservative leanings. We need a mandate for a specific plan so that the beltway repubs won’t be able to split differences and water it down.

            Reagan was that way with his tax plans in 1980-1. Cain is laying the groundwork for same now.

          • bzip

            Oh give me a break. This non-sense of comapring Cain to Reagan is completely stupid and it comes off like it did in 2008 when the medai was comparing Obama to MLK, This Messiah BS is getting on my nerves, hmm sounds kind of Cainish (perhaps we have been brainwash).

            Tell me when Cain is properly vetted and his supporters can explain their sell out to a big gov’t Cain;

            http://christiancitizens.org/herman_cain_for_president.html
            ?He backed the Wall Street bailout, or according to Cain, the ?recovery plan,? as he called it on his radio show. Cain wrote that nationalizing banks ?is not a bad thing.?

            “Herman Cain favors Federal Government intervention in the work place on the behalf of blacks and minorities?

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            Do you want to start a third party with the non-TARP minority?

            Cain has stated that he opposes much of what was done with TARP and that the legislation should have not given the executive so much discretion.

            But if TARP is going to be the deal breaker, then out goes Perry as well. that letter he wrote on the day TARP was passed seals his fate on that too.

            I think it best not to use TARP as a litmus test.

          • kcdude

            of any opinion you have from me until you can articulate a point about your candidate of choice. You obviously do not care for Cain or his support, why not simply ignore those who do? You do not seem capable of objective thought concerning Cain if you do not see that he is trying to make his case in a manner similar to RWR. That does not mean that I think he is RWR or that he will even get the nomination. I am simply pointing out, as was GC, that his optimism is helping to get his message across – whether you like it or not. Your rhetoric is growing tiresome.

            BTW – their is only one Messiah and Cain is not Him. Nor is any other candidate in this race. Nor am I – give that a rest.

          • kcdude

            in my response. Should have said There not Their is only one Messiah.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            on illegal immigration which is why the controversy over in-state tuition caused me to move far to the left on that

            http://www.examiner.com/law-politics-in-atlanta/gop-can-affirm-rule-of-law-and-define-amnesty-down

            But Cain does indicate that at least after the border is secured he would take length of residence into account for amnesty of some sort.

          • politicalgal1

            Point #1 – the federal government has failed miserably to control the border. The border states have to deal with the large illegal immigrant population in their own ways. Perhaps this was an education and economic policy decision rather than an illegal immigrant issue for Texas?

            Point #2 – The Texas state legislature initiated the in-state tuition 10 years ago when Perry was Lt. Governor. He signed it when he became Governor as Bush left for the White House. A little disingenuous for others to say he promoted it.

            Point #3 – I live in NC. Our state legislature tried a couple of years ago to enact in-state tuition. It was defeated because the people didn’t want it–I helped in the defeat. However, as someone who lives in NC or Georgia, or some other non-border state, I respect the state right of other states to enact legislation, even if I do not agree with it. If the citizens in Texas didn’t like this, they could have elected different state legislators over the last 10 years to repeal it. This is a state’s right issue – point closed.

            Point #4 – Marco Rubio tried to get this same legislation enacted in Florida in 2003-2004. Do you think the conservative base is going to attack him on this issue?

          • onemovoter

            In-state tuition for illegals while she was in the Minnesota Senate. The measure eventually went down for defeat and wasn’t brought up again. For her to act like she did with Perry is completely disingenuous and hypocritical.

            Point #6 – Rick Santorum while in the US Senate voted for a reform to the US immigration laws that advocated for the large increase of border patrol troops with air assets on the southern border, along with strategic fencing along certain parts of the border. This is exactly what Perry is calling for. Yet Rick is now for a border fence all the way across just to contrast himself with Perry? Hypocritical again.

            Seems to me most of the candidates have stances that are the same as Perry’s but are coming out differently as you pointed out. I find it refreshing at least that Perry is consistent in his positions.

          • Scope

            and so conservative. The fact that Cain changed from his original idea of 999 to removing any federal income tax liability from the poor, because he has been getting hammered from both sides, speaks of someone who is willing to “reach across the aisle.” Isn’t that why the conservatives have had it with the current crop of R’s in Washington.

            You willingness and blindness to prop up your candidate, no matter what, is telling. Yet you are not willing to do that same thing with any of the other candidates. Like I’ve said before, I don’t even recognize who you have become any longer. You have changed drastically, and not for the better.

            Your attack on gator hoo, calling him intellectually dishonest for stating his views, is unacceptable.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            The actual substance of the compromise determines good or bad.

          • politicalgal1

            n/t

          • kcdude

            He got a fair amount of what he was looking for and gave some to seal the deal. ‘course we are all waiting on those promised spending cuts.

          • politicalgal1

            “Perry and the rest of the candidates haven?t had a major plan to stand on unlike Cain who took the risk of taking one that has a real chance of being a mandate that could pass and unleash the economy quickly.” Are you serious?

            You obviously haven’t taken the time to read Perry’s Energizing American Jobs and Security Plan. If you want to seriously discuss policies that would unleash the economy quickly, read Perry’s plan.

            Cain and the other candidates all pay lip service on energy and regulatory reform but offer no details. Please take the time to read Perry’s plan. “Make what Americans buy. Buy what Americans make. And sell it to the world.”

            In his book Fed Up, Perry advocated for the Flat Tax (long before Cain’s 9-9-9 plan). Yes, it did take him longer to release the details of the plan. Better to have a well researched recipe than a quickly thrown out new pizza recipe where the ingredients have to frequently be changed in order to be palatable.

          • kcdude

            I write this as someone who is likely a Cain or Perry supporter – I lean Cain but have not yet made a final decision. If another candidate besides Cain or Perry prevails, I will just be casting an ABO vote.

            I did not read Gov. Perry’s book and I am waiting for the tax plan announcement. The energy plan is good. I want to see his tax plan and hope it is flat tax but it is not on his site so many of us have not seen it.

            FWIW – I always liked Steve Forbes and think he never really got his due.

          • izoneguy

            Krauthammer down on Herman Cain: ?He is winging it?

            ?[I] saw him on ?Stossel? on abortion ? entirely incoherent,? Krauthammer said. ?On one hand, people ought to have choice. On the other hand life is sacred from the beginning and abortion ought to be illegal. This isn?t a complicated issue. It?s one or the other. It can?t be both. Stossel was simply stunned. And if you combine it with the ?9-9-9? stuff, it is not that he just hasn?t thought it out. He is winging it. And that is a real problem.?

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            has touches of Beltway-itis disease.

          • kcdude

            even so-called conservative pundits are more establishment types. I do not see any of these folks embracing Cain or Perry. They may not endorse BO but they will never embrace the non-establishment.

            In almost all anti-Cain, anti-Perry talk from their types, I hear vote for Romney.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            come Nov 2012.

          • snowshooze

            I ain’t wild about warm spit.
            Yes, I voted for McPalin… but I was not thrilled.
            I wonder what it would have been like had it gone the other way.
            We wouldn’t be in our mess nearly as bad… but we would most likely be in serious trouble for ’12… well… that is a guess.
            As it stands… Obama could come in third in a three way race.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            That modern day liberalism and the Dem Party is vile and their policies are proven failures.

            God’s providence let Obama win for our own long-term good.

          • kcdude

            difference between voting ABO which I will do and actually being able to vote FOR someone because I think that person can be a great president.

          • politicalgal1

            http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/10/a_serious_plan_for_prosperity_and_peace.html?mid=50

            A very intense analysis of the power in Perry’s energy plan.

            Perry gets it and is the best qualified to take the country down this path.

          • kcdude

            still look forward to the tax plan.

          • Flagstaff

            His negatives have been his falling into the same habit the other three referred to by this diary have shown–inability to recognize the point where talking should cease and listening begin. Or even snoozing. Anything but continuing to talk as you irritate the folks who want to agree with you.

            If Perry has such great ideas, let him talk about them. So far he is just mouthing generalities, which is OK as long as we’re in the beauty contest phase of the campaign. It’s enough to drive one to Paul.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            But yes, I’m sure that Mitt and Rick have wonderful tomes to read online and have for months, even years. That’s quite a bit different than taking the risk of a bold plan on the stump.

          • izoneguy

            Which was way before 9-9-9, or wait is it 9-0-9 now?
            I can’t keep up.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            And yes, I pray daily for your ability to keep up…smile

          • Scope

            jerk.

          • izoneguy

            Until Romney is President or Obama gets to finish us off.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            smile Scope and try Listerine for your potty mouth and poor reading comprehension. BTW I don’t remember any kudos for my major defense of Perry a week or so ago after he defended his in-state tuition heart. It seems you have adopted a very Red State-like aversion to compliments and only chime in with fellow bots or to lambaste non-bots with name-calling accompanied by no substantive justification.

            Bad girl.

          • Scope

            but those like you that have affixed rose colored glasses can’t see beyond your own nose. I know you have apologized here before, more than once, for being on the wrong side. I can only hope that all that you have been trashing here, for stating their views on Cain’s positions, will remember to make you walk the rugged stone hewn road back to acceptance. You are making your own bed, and you will have to sleep in it. Straight from the beeitches mouth.

          • luvnthebigsites

            I’m a Cain supporter and I’ll Take 100 “scope” posts based on logic and reason over anything some “one month wonder” hack rifles off.

            Don’t join the one month wonder chorus Scope, (please and thank you) ;)

          • Scope

            You can support Cain all you want. Just talk him up, point out all his greatest points, talk about why you think he is the best candidate. GC has crossed that line. He is making a habit lately against anyone who has valid concerns against Cain. I think the biggest disgust I found today was when he claimed that someone, who had always read and agreed with many of his positions, to be responding in an unintellectual manner. He has literally name called people, but then posted that he would sit back and watch the name calling ensue. You can be rational, reasonable and subjective with your support. GC has gone far beyond that as though he has become so completely emotionally attached to his candidate, he can’t see anything beyond that. Come on, Cain isn’t perfect, and anyone who feels he has to define his words for him is beyond the pale.

          • luvnthebigsites

            Your support of a few one month wonders that show up to pile on Cain in a noticeably “spam fashion”. Game cock? He’s a lawyer… (or a version of one) heh. My only beef with him is he did rail pretty hard against us Fairtax believers… But i’ll give him a pass if he takes Cain seriously this go around.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            I truly question your reading comprehension, especially when confronted with irony and dry wit. You accused me of endorsing Mitt in a column in which I listed many concerns I have against Mitt that make him my, at best, FOURTH choice.

            In at least 2 recent columns and numerous comments I have stated that Perry is my, at worst, SECOND choice and that if I were a betting man, I would say that he is the favorite as we speak to get the nomination.

            I wrote a column defending Perry’s in-state tuition position and announced my own non-voting rights amnesty NOW for non-felon illegals that have been here for more than 3 years.

            I have said from the get-go that I wanted 9-9-9 to be tweaked. I have been on record in numerous detailed columns against the FAIR Tax and for Flat Tax plans. I also praised Perry for admitting that FAIR Tax has no chance due to 16th amendment.

            Yes, I wrote a column criticizing Perry for his personal attack on Mitt concerning his gardener from 6 years ago. You can;t count the number of columns I have written here at Redstate during campaigns that bemoan the primary dynamic that causes political animals too stoop low to gain advantage. The column re Perry’s Vegas un-cool is about the attack, and not because I lean to Cain.

            Notice how I ALWAYS say “lean” to candidates? That’s because Mike gamecock DeVine is over 40 and many times burned soon after “falling for men”. I am an issues guy and no candidate owns me for 5 seconds.

            Along those lines, did you see my OVER TEN comments I made threatening to stop leaning to Cain after his CNN interview and before his less than 36 hours later mea culpa re-affirming his life-long pro-life stance?

            Did you see those comments? or did you conveniently forget those comments?

            I WORKED ON CAIN’S CAMPAIGN IN 2004!!!!! Yet I did not announce that I leaned to him until after 9-9-9. Before that, I leaned to Bachmann and planned to lean to Perry before 9-9-9.

            Whew. Study that 5 times before commenting and go back and read all my columns from the past 8 weeks.

            I love you gal and I pray that you will one day “get” my writing. It is in English for your benefit.

            Maybe its your eyesight….

          • luvnthebigsites

            For the record I respect both these contributors opinion and look forward to their next post. ;)

          • Scope

            lizard changes theirs to fit in with their surroundings. I have no idea what you have against Perry, but you do have opinions against Perry, despite your saying that Perry may be your number 2 choice. That’s a come on, and nothing else, beg me for my vote. You have gone through candidates, so ideologicaly different as someone would change their underware, and with a vehemence for your latest star that would topple anyone other than the most emotionally charged.

            Go back to your diary about Perry’s debate performance, and your comments that ensued in that diary, and tell me you don’t have more than a little bone to pick with Perry, but with no substance to carry those positions. Again, please tell me what it is about Perry that you hold in such contempt? I don’t believe you have ever clarified that. For someone that you claim is your number 2 choice, what is it about Perry that you have such animosity against. Or, is it that you want so desperately to corral the RedStaters to supporting your anointed that you have lost all rationality, and ability to have civil debates? You really have lost any rationality and/or subjectivness.

            I know you are a lawyer as a profession. If I needed a lawyer to defend me in court, I would have some serious questions. If I looked at someone who claims proudly that Cain’s 999 is a not a VAT, when Cain’s own website has called a portion of his plan as a form of a VAT, I would feel like my attorney never did his homework.

          • gekster

            His wife put him on a vegan diet.
            He will be crazy for awhile, if not permentaly.
            Leave him be stupid, and hope it wears off.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            reduced meat intake!

          • gekster

            I am in the same situation.
            Ramon noodles for me.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            supporting same and maybe we can have a conversation, although I don’t know what is up with your Rooster obsession. Seriously, when you attack people why not try and approach the competence of THIS lawyer and provide evidence. Most lawyers can’t hold a candle to me…smile

            Its also too bad that medical science can’t cure humorlessness. That is an affliction mostly in liberals but also many women of all persuasions.

            Don’t flatter yourself with claims that Perry as my #2 choice is a “come on”. But if you want to visit me in Atlanta I will be glad to let you take me out to eat.

            What is to “clarify” about my objection to Perry’s personal attack on Mitt about the 2005 gardener? I still think that attack was vile and born of bad poll number driven desperation. I wrote criticizing Bachmann when she made unsubstantiated attacks on Perry and if Cain gets out of line, I will be intellectually honest and do the same. But Cain, unlike any politician I have ever known, corrects his own mistakes and quite admirably so.

            I have said that I forgive Perry understanding that most pols are essentially disabled people that have spent their adult lives begging for money 24/7 365 and that primary battles the worst out of. Cain seems the exception, but I will be happy yo vote for him if he is the nominee. He has been a strong conservative and good governor though I do worry about his “heart”, “hate cancer” and “always choose life” comments as sounding like Dubya’s “when someone hurts, government has to act” compassionate conservatism.

            But of course Mitt worries me more.

            All this is clear from my writing. You just don;t get irony, and clever jokes and ways of saying things that gets me paid, rather than just making simple declaratory statements that publications won’t pay to publish!

            As to VAT, I said that the rate is so low that I have no fears that Cain’s 9-9-9 would operate like Europe’s VAT. The issue with VAT is not the black magic of value added taxes, but rather the level of same and hiddeness.

            And if you don’t want to hire me, well I’ve eaten well for over 40 years without your help.

            Scope, I was a Redstate veteran before you brought your emotional knee-jerk name-calling protestations here.

            You really need to get a grip. I suggested that to you in a phone call earlier this year but you just project your problems on to me.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            I have always been turned off by how mean you are to people even when you are on my side. You need to get a grip babe with your Manichean view of the world that all people that disagree with you on any issue or person are evil incarnate. Its an ugly trait of yours and several others here and some that got banned back during the purge.

            I remain here as a public service.

            PS This post does not contain a joke. I meant it.

          • Finrod

            .

          • Scope

            There have been many many new posters here, in this election season. Some have come for no other reason than to promote their candidate. Some have come for no other reason than to post against one particular candidate. Then there are some that have been a part of the site for a long, or relatively longer period that have decided to go all in, and are willing to attack or demean other longer term candidates, simply because they have not jumped on board with their favored candidate.

            If you are seriously asking me to denigrate those that share my views, because they haven’t been here very long, you better get a better grip on yourself. Thank you for saying that I post rationally and reasonably, as I interpreted your message. That means that I can look at a person’s positions, and call them as I see them, even when they are being irrational, and not reasonable.

            I stand with my non fickel Perry supporters whether they have been here for one day, or 5 years.

          • Scope

            n/t

          • luvnthebigsites

            I really do. It’s the silly season and we are “Vetting”. (Doing the hard word the old media use to do)… Just keep that in the back of your mind when you post) We are all on the same team. /salute

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            I accept

            smile

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            so juvenile and usually only used by women and sissies.

            smile

            Gal, grow a sense of humor. Not surprisingly a high percentage of bloggers don’t have one goven the nerd/dufus/dork PJ-clad still living with mama crowd.

            FTR, I am a geek, defined as a lifelong reader that knows all sorts of trivia that is useless in making money. But I was President of my elementary school, QB in HS, beat up many bullies that were picking on nerds, phi beta kappa in college, married a babe that got alimony, won many jury trials, lost a race for county council, managed two winning political campaigns for the US House, etc

            I am a doer and a thinker. My emotions are under control except about a few things, besides my love for God, family, friends (of which I consider you one…xxooxx I love SCOPE) and America;

            1) I hate the democrat party and since my 1999 conservative epiphany, my life’s mission is to drive a stake thu that blood-sucking vampire’s heart

            2) The Atlanta Braves

            3) South Carolina Gamecocks

            4) Despair over my poverty caused by liberal Democrat policies and esp Obama…but as a Christian I have to love him to get to Heaven.

            Hope this helps, and I stand by all my comments of late. Yes, I do have apologized in the past, esp 3 years ago when I got into a snark mode that was much LESS VENAL THAN THE ONE YOU ARE ON.

            So I pray that you will apologize to me very soon and stop your snark so that God can again bless you.

            smile

          • luvnthebigsites

            Tea party “blinders” has a ring to it. Yea I’m going with that.

            I’ve got my Tea party blinders on and I’m in the Tank for Cain… (used in context) ;)

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            For instance why hadn’t Steve Forbes been all-in on Perry’s book but waited until the post-Cain surge Perry’s announcement of the Flat Tax Plan months later?

          • Scope

            reality. Why would someone, anyone endorse a book that was written long long before the election season? Perry wrote his flat tax ideas in his book. Now he is taking that show on the road, where it will be put forth before the American people to review, as a policy he supports as the future president. Now would be the appropriate time for Forbes to endorse Perry. You have anything better than your weak and ineffective argument, that is so lame it is pathetic.

            I have stuck to my ideological beliefs for any candidate that I support, even before they got in the race or not. I was all for Mike Pence, who holds the same things dear just as I and Perry. They fall within the same spectrum of those that I support. On the other hand, you have supported Pawlenty, who supported Global Warming initiatives as Governor, before he walked that back as a presidential candidate. Oh, he appologized for that position, but then endorsed the candidate that has adopted that position, and refuses to walk it back. You’ve posted a diary in support of Romney, who also supports Global Warming, lately since he is being “honest” now. Now you are shilling for Cain, and refuse to see any of his faults.

            Your positions have been all over the map, and then some. Obviously you have listened to the Cain inspirational tapes/videos, and believe that if you really believe in your own self and words, you can sway the masses to your way of thinking. Good luck with that GC. Cain promotes narcissits, and you have taken that message to heart. You have become creepified.

          • izoneguy

            I like Mike Pence also!

            What is a Gamecock with no game?

          • Scope

            It’s like changing the rules in the middle of the game. There has been more than one instance when a ref called a play wrong by anyone’s standards, but stuck with his call because of pride, and wanting to retain “credibility.”

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            a Chickin’ Lickin’ next Saturday!

          • rightwingmom52

            But you’re probably right. My Vols just can’t seem to catch a break in the second half of any game.

            Sigh. But I’m looking on the bright side. The Tide just keeps Rollin’, and another NC may be in our future. Given the kind of year the folks throughout Alabama have had, especially in Tuscaloosa, it would be especially grand!

            As for this thread, one nugget in particular caught my attention, and I agree wholeheartedly.

            “…the primary dynamic that causes political animals too stoop low to gain advantage.” Apparently it rubs off on lay people as well.

          • Flagstaff

            did they?

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            But hey, Gamecocks are perfectly capable of losing to any team at any time.

          • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

            How do you think Auburn fans are feeling after that beat down?

          • rightwingmom52

            if Alabama puts the same kind of beat down on them in a couple of weeks. Are you going to the game? We’re planning to be there. I’ll be the fan wearing crimson.

          • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

            but I will be watching on TV to see Les Miles work his voodoo on Nick Satan.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            typical
            don’t know why I try but here goes

            1-Cain
            2-Perry
            3-Bachman
            4-Romney
            5-Newt

            Romney has always been 3rd or 4th and Perry 2nd. That is cleat if you read every line in all my campaign 2012 columns and don’t get all bent out of shape by suggestions to Mitt on how to improve and criticisms of Perry.

            But i understand your kind Scope. You can’t be happy unless you are emotionally attached to a person and/or cause and all that deviate and criticize the latest Christ you follow are the anti-Christ.

            I been reading you for years and now the lord has led me to school you.

            Plus, you’re just not that bright. That;s why I never let you have it for your refusal to read and your mean name-calling of others ad nauseum.

            You are the oracle of conservative purity? Poppycock!

          • politicalgal1

            a bold plan that has a lot of pot holes and a clear, conside plan that will achieve desired results.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            you are in luck. But I am no bot-like critic of Perry just because I lean to Cain. I suspect Perry’s Flat Tax would also be a great Rx for what ails America.

          • lineholder

            change it half a dozen times each between now and the election as long it moves in the right direction of providing solid answers to the challenges our nation is facing. In raising the bar against each other, they give “we the people” better options. I think that part of it is great and I’m glad to see it happening!

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            some peeps

          • libdestroyer

            You can’t say that for certain until Perry’s plan starts being pulled-apart by Romney and the others. THEN we’ll see if Perry “stands behind” his plan.

            Herman Cain is being rewarded by the voters for HAVING a plan while Rick Perry was still figuring it all out. That showed leadership on Cain’s part.

            Is it difficult to understand why Cain leads in the polls? The man has a plan, is able to articulate it simply and effectively, has a sense of humor and does well at debates.

            On the other side we have Perry, who fumbled his way through debate after debate, only opening his mouth to attack Romney or say “my uh plan uh… economic… uh… I’m working on it…”

        • libdestroyer

          that’s why I like it!

          1.) The poor should pitch in. They enjoy the same freedoms and benefits that their fellow Americans enjoy. I realize that might mean the poor can’t afford their second car, their big screen TV or their TIVO but…

          2.) De-fund SS? Are you aware there’s no funding for it now??? It’s a bankrupt program!

          Part of ripping off the old bandage is exposing the wound. It’s never pretty.

      • Xasteius

        Or at least that’s what I see on Cain’s website. http://www.hermancain.com/999plan

        • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

          The latter led to the only repeal of a Constitutional amendment in history.

          Plus, I have always and still do oppose the FAIR Tax and have written extensively on why. Summary: Too high sales taxes, too much discouragement of consumption which is the key to growth and the pre-bate allowances to the poor (too much mommy state govt very month).

          I like 9-9-9 w/9-0-9 for the poor much better and even slightly better than most FLAT tax proposals I’ve seen over the last 20 years. But a FLAT tax would be good too.

          • joayn

            reporting on an event that was held the day after the Las Vegas debate, in which Cain was a guest speaker. It was the Western Republican Leadership Conference and this is what he said:

            ?We?re not going to throw the people at the poverty level under the bus,? Cain told an audience at the Western Republican Leadership Conference. ?No, we?re not going to do that. But we?ve already made provisions for that. But I just hadn?t told the public and my opponents about it yet. So we?re going to take care of those who are less economically advantaged.?

            “Cain offered no details on how he would spare the poor from the federal sales tax. He suggested his decision to keep the exemption secret until today was a calculated strategic move.”

            ?I wanted to wait until I got attacked on that for a while,? said Cain, whose plan was attacked Tuesday by rivals at a Las Vegas debate. ?We already have a plan for that. But I wanted to see if they would come at that. They thought that it was going to be dead in the water. No.?

            Are we really expected to believe that keeping these details a “secret” during the debate was “a calculated strategic move?” And the bit about wanting to wait until he got attacked, etc. is just, well, strange. Why wouldn’t he say during the debate that he and his team were working on revisions to address the very issues he was being attacked on? Makes no sense.

            No offense, but it’s statements like this that reflects poorly on Cain and his abilities. He appears to be just the front man for his “advisors” and is just memorizing the basics of his plan, which is why he explains it so poorly.

            http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-cain-alters-999-plan-20111019,0,359812.story

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            I don’t disagree with your criticism of Cain and yes I knew of that speech. I still lean to Cain based upon the preponderance of the perjury and positives of all the candidates. As a true conservative my expectation of mere politicians is quite low!

          • lineholder

            Straw poll, and of course what we’re going to hear is that it doesn’t matter. But I thought you might like the link

            http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/oct/21/cain-tops-field-again-nevada-gop-straw-poll/

          • avagreen

            Really, really causes me to disrespect and distrust this man, although I was there long time before this d/t his flipflops on so many issues.
            Does he really think that kinduv fly-by-the-night remark will actually be bought?

            He’s doing what he does best. Sell an item. In this case, he’s selling himself.

            What a Flibbertigibbet, as anyone who believes this crap.

          • lineholder

            You and bzip are cracking me up. First bzip calling GC a troll (which under the circumstances is hilarious) and now you presenting righteous indignation about Cain’s “lies” (which under the circumstances is also hilarious)

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            Their candidate is the Second Coming of Christ no matter if the tuition for in-state illegals is paid by Mitt’s former gardener and
            Cain is beelzebub.

          • lineholder

            they aren’t just “bots”…they’re bots with an agenda

            http://www.redstate.com/realquiet/2011/10/21/baggage-check-who-is-really-our-best-candidate/#comment-1567

            They’ve got no reason to have any genuine concern about the integrity of this site. They’re here for a time and a season with a specific goal in mind, and once their time is done, they’re gone.

            You, me and a bunch of other people here who know that the Conservative battle doesn’t magically end with 2012 elections do have reasons to genuinely care about the integrity of this site. This is where we come to find and share information with like-minded citizens.

            I don’t like the duplicity of it, Mike. I don’t like it at all.

          • Scope

            that post in support of one candidate, and against the one perceived as the current frontrunner, they are bots? Shouldn’t Rom,ney be going after the perceived new frontrunner? When someone posts comments that provide rational arguments, links, opinions etc. they are now all bots because they don’t support the candidate you do?

            What I see is anger and frustration because some haven’t jumped on the bandwagon that you and the Cain supporters wnat them to. That doesn’t make the newer posters bots. Heck, EE diaries are being picked up on other website, including RCP. That will attract new posters. They are all bots?

          • luvnthebigsites

            Respect is earned in these threads scope, not given out based on defense of your preferred candidate.

          • Scope

            Does that mean that the newer posters are not invited because they have a particular point of view? How do you know that these new people will not remain after election season? Do new people come and go all the time? Yep. Do new people remain and become a part of the RS community? Yep. Were you a new poster at one time? Yep. Did you find RS a great community to remain with? Yep.

            End of story.

          • luvnthebigsites

            Its their “agenda” that worries me. Good posters like yourself not only advance the conservative message but are also responsible for self-policing these threads. Yea I was a new poster at one time and I got my Butt spanked several times… Just like myself and a few others are (delicately) trying to preform on “scope”. ;)

          • avagreen

            What is my “agenda”?

            versus “my opinion”?

          • luvnthebigsites

            I’m a constant reader, (of many blogs) and your toon name doesn’t register yet, It takes months to get my attention so don’t feel bad…

            Heh.

          • avagreen

            WTH?

          • luvnthebigsites

            I deal in trends and my main fascination is in the machinations of the “New Media”. (You included, even though I haven’t read you posts.) You would have to have familiarized yourself with thousands of incoherent “luvntheBIGsites” posts to assert that I’m a “name caller”.

            Ehh, I’ll take your word for it. :P

          • avagreen

            Their point of view is irrelevant.

            Its their ?agenda? that worries me.
            Good posters like yourself ….

            Pretty self explanatory….obviously I’m not a “good poster” and worthy of your attention. Sounds an awfully lot like mindreading going on here from you.

            And,
            Candidates (and their supporters) come and go, Redstate remains.

            Respect is earned in these threads scope, not given out based on defense of your preferred candidate.

            Apparently, I’m not worthy of respect, either. Or, any new poster for that matter……that doesn’t support your views??

            Rather than “name calling”, call it dizzing a new poster by saying they have an “agenda” that “not worthy of respect”, but you admit you haven’t even read any of my posts…….mindreading again.

            Will this do for an answer?

          • luvnthebigsites

            I haven’t formed yet concerning your posts that I haven’t read yet?

            lol . This thread is starting to get silly ladies and gentleman.

            Night all. ;)

          • Scope

            by those that disagree with you and your posts. Luv thinks he has the deal on RS and RS posters. He doesn’t. He is quite arrogant to tell you and the other Perry supporters what they should be posting, or not. He ia an arrogant little cuss who thinks he can control the message by ostracizing and/or ridiculing those he doesn’t agree with. He loves to interject all these nice words when he addresses me. He hasn’t fooled me at all.

            avagreen, bzip and all of the other posters who are new, do not allow yourself to be intimitated, or to get argumentative with this guy, or the other Cain supporters who are riding high because their guy is the flavor of the month.

            I have been here for more than 4 years, I’ve seen these intimidation tactics before. They come and go. Best thing you can do is to walk away from the Cainbots, and those that post in order to draw you in to their circle like a spider. Pleae learn what to challenge, and what to ignore. There are some that want nothing more than to try to push you to the edge of being banned. Don’t take the bait. Walk away, and do what you do best. You are doing fine.

          • Scope

            he is a RS icon, or an old piece of furniture on the site. He hasn’t been any stalwart member that has been here fighting the good fight between elections either. He has not been here fighting the good fight many have been. Don’t bite his bait.

          • luvnthebigsites

            Its a shame too. I like perry and have defended him in these threads along with you. Old furniture maybe true, and old furniture tends to have a mind like an elephant.

            Hope your candidate wins scope. Cause that’s all that matters right? ;)

          • bzip

            It seems you are bored with a lot of people, Wonder if you are ever not bored.

            Do usually make an announcement everything you are bored (just curious)?

          • bzip

            I am not intimidated by others. I spent 12 years on usenet in flame wars and trolls that can’t even come close to what I see on the web these days.

            I am a conservative with a point of view and unless EE say other wise I am here to stay.

            Everyone should be welcome here to express, exchange and share information whether they have been here 1 day or 10 years. To think other wise arrogant.

          • avagreen

            A few rounds of scrapping with the bots do wonders to know who to ignore and who to respond to. It takes a few posts to separate the wheat from the chaff.

            I’m only interested in the real facts, not sideshows like this. There’s always a few…..

          • bzip

            So you have a agenda problem – well everyone has some kind of agenda if you didn’t I would wonder just what you stood for.

            I personally don’t pay much attention to the various names here only what the person says and if I can’t add anything I feel is useful I don’t. If you don’t like it – don’t read it – is usually what I do.

          • luvnthebigsites

            yawn.

          • bzip

            Well don’t read them, talk about a real….
            Gosh, I am bored with yours too, so there.

          • tjms

            me I thought the title of the post meant that we were to talk about our candidate of choice. Yes, I am new here I have really enjoyed reading and discussing. but sounds like I am not welcome from the above comments. Maybe we are new as this is a new election season and had not found a suitable place to openly discuss issues. Guess I thought wrong.

          • bzip

            You are welcome here as is anyone that can share information with like minded people. You have to excuse the clique with some of these people they just don’t get it.

            That is okay, there isn’t anything that is going to stop me from my mission.

          • Scope

            As bzip has said there is a Cain click that has developed here. They can’t stand to hear anything against their guy Cain. Stay with it tjms. These clicks come and go.

          • Finrod

            You, Scope, are quite obviously a cheerleader for the Perry clique (note correct spelling). Try looking in the mirror sometime, practically every denigrating thing you’ve said about the Cain supporters applies to you and your support for Perry.

            In 2008 we had the McCain clique, the Romney clique, the Fred Thompson clique (the biggest one, here), the Giuliani clique (which was much abused), and the Huckabee clique (the most abused). We managed to make it through somehow then and we will again now.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            many seem to have outed themselves! ROFLMAO – What is the saying about the brick thrown into a pile of dogs and the ones that yelp give themselves away?

          • lineholder

            They keep yelling “no, we’re not…no, we’re not”, then right back into the frenzy they go.

          • retire05

            Cain’s winging it. 9-9-9 is an advertising slogan, not a tax plan.

            For pizza take out call:

            999-99/99.

            The last two 99/99 just leaves out the 0.

          • lineholder

            Each individual legal citizen in this nation is granted by law the right to vote, and it’s their votes that matter in the long run, not what Krauthammer says.

            And they’ll each make up their own mind, regardless of all the efforts being made to “herd” them.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            just saying

          • luvnthebigsites

            You see by taking a stand on the tax code (even if its wrong) Cain has forced everyone’s hand and defined the NARRATIVE. Pretty soon Obama will admit that the tax code will have to be replaced…

            Heh.

          • lineholder

            Thought I’d pass it along.

            http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/10/23/8456729-campaign-cain-raising-1-million-a-week-in-october

          • rightwingmom52

            Feels good to be a part of it.

          • luvnthebigsites

            .

          • circlegranch

            I don’t dislike Cain but I have real problem with a possible president putting out a plan ‘even if its wrong’.

          • avagreen

            ……..doesn’t take away Cain’s lies about his delay in presenting his plan.
            Ergo, ?We already have a plan for that. But I wanted to see if they would come at that.

            Givemeabreak.

          • lineholder

            plenty of funny things that you say, avagreen.

            As I said yesterday, I’ll be glad when this stint is over.

          • Scope

            I just heard a portion of Cain’s 9 0 9 speech that he made. One of the things he said made my hair stand up, having done the accounting for businesses in the past. He talked about “depreciation schedules” and said that his plan would eliminate the need for figuring out depreciation each year. His plan has you using the expense for any capitol purchases in the year you buy them. Capitol expenses being the purchase of vehicles, major equipment, furniture, real estate etc.

            When you use depreciation schedules, it allows you to write off your capitol purchases over a time period, depending on the purchase. It is an expense that lowers your bottom taxable line. With Cain’s plan, you write the purchase off in the year you purchase it, which lowers your bottom line in that year, but every year there after, unless you are successful enough to keep purchasing new equipment, vehicles etc., you have no write-offs, and you pay his tax rate on every dollar of profit you make. How many small businesses can afford to keep purchasing capitol items? Not many. A deli purchasing a slicer, or a refrigerator is small potatoes, and provides no help with tax relief, it adds a tax burden, that will harm small businesses.

          • izoneguy

            Herman Cain’s only chance now is to shut up until
            The primary voting begins.

          • Scope

            Why punch down. Cain has showed a propensity for foot in mouth disease since he got in the race. I’m sure the others knew it was only a matter of time when he would not be able to extract one or both feet. With so many jokes, and mis-speaks, one starts to wear the patina of not ready for prime time. We are electing the leader of the free world, and the once greatest nation on earth, prior to Obama. We sure don’t need one who promises Hope and Change II, with no experience to accomplish real and valid Hope and Change.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            need references before you hire me for your legal problems! smile, but seriously.

          • libdestroyer

            Is it wishful thinking or ignorance that drives your assumptions?

            YOUR GUY IS POLLING BEHIND RON PAUL NATIONALLY.
            HERMAN CAIN IS LEADING THE FIELD NATIONALLY.

            And you two are talking about Cain’s “only chance…”
            Reality check!

          • avagreen

            Usually that’s a decision made by the taxpayer at tax time, but with Cain’s plan that decision is taken away from the taxpayer and put into the hands of ……….the government.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            most al would choose to have all their money on day one so that they can use that money (invest, etc) rather than be paid over time. Its called the time value of money and is fundamental in economics (I majored in same, summa cum laude, phi beta kappa). Much like one on the hand is worth two in a bush. Depreciation is like money and most all would rather have it all today.

          • avagreen

            Sometimes, a business deduction over time is the best.

            At any rate, this decision should be left up to the taxpayer. Not some Federal guideline on what to do and when to do it.

            I’m for individual choice, being a conservative. ;)

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            I too would prefer the choice. But having the opportunity to frontload is usually absent and this will be welcome news for the overwhelming majority, especially given the long recession and pent-up demand.

          • avagreen

            And, I would rather be the one making the choice.

            The choice to take depreciation all at once is present right now……….even without Cain’s 999 plan and people can invest it or just put it their mattress. And, the choice to NOT take it all at once is also present right now.

            At present, no one is forced to take depreciation either way. But, under 999, they will be forced to take it all upfront.
            Don’t see why anyone should be think being forced to take it all upfront under the 999 plan is “welcome”.
            ??

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            write off 100% the first year, which is a great advantage to most. I do recall a time when one could take 33%/year.

            Even for those that don’t make a profit can carry over losses and so still gain the advantage. But there still could be some small percentage of taxpayers that would benefit form stretching the depreciation over a number of years.

            Its not a matter of being “forced”! That would be like saying I’m forcing the thirsty to drink. It is a great benefit get money earlier rather than later.

          • avagreen

            one year………took the whole 100% of my office equipment off my taxes.

            On another year, I spread it out.
            It depended upon the income I was making at the time.

          • avagreen

            Section 179 Deduction
            (Updated For 2008 Economic Stimulus Act)

            “Most new business equipment can be either depreciated over its useful life or expensed immediately under Internal Revenue Code Section 179. The maximum deduction is based on the following schedule for the date in which the tax year begins….”

            http://taxcode179.blogspot.com/

          • avagreen

            I’ve probs been a conservative a lot longer than you have been.
            As scope said, you were once a new blogger.

            That being said, Cain has big holes in his story and multiple flipflops. Going after me may make you feel better, but it doesn’t change his story.

          • lineholder

            that we have quite a few of what is referred to as “drive-bys” actively engaged in posting information at the site right now. We know that they are here for a reason, and we know what that reason is. That’s the site’s choice to make, not ours. It doesn’t necessarily mean that we like it.

            But it does not help the Conservative cause if any of us go in the direction of making accusatory statements that malign the character of any of our current candidates when there is no solid basis on which those claims can be made. There is a line on this one that it just is not wise to cross.

            And for what it is worth, if the roles had been reversed and it had been a “drive-by” poster going after Perry in the same way that a few of these “drive-by” posters have gone after Cain, I’d have done exactly the same thing by letting them know that they were pushing it a bit in the approach they are taking.

          • avagreen

            ^^
            A lot of sites won’t let a poster post links, so I’ve been charrey about doing so.

            On other forums, I’ve made lengthy posts that weren’t posted, obviously because of the links that I included.

            So…………let me know which statements I’ve made that you disagree with and let ‘her go…………ask. I’m perfectly capable. But, be prepared for a slew.

          • lineholder

            entirely possible that I’ve misjudged you, and I don’t have the slightest problem with apologizing for that either.

            So let me just make a few comments.

            (1) You can ask just about anyone here and they will be more than happy to tell you that I’m a staunch supporter of wanting to see Conservatism win. That’s my “thing”…that’s the primary emphasis for me.

            (2) If you sincere, then it’s possible you’ve got caught in the crossfire by myself and a few other people who just want to try to keep things on the up-and-up as much as we can, and we don’t want to see damage done to either the site or to our long-term ability as Conservatives to present ourselves in a credible way that can earn the respect of our fellow citizens.

            (3) If you are sincere and you haven’t done any type of diary as of yet, perhaps you might do so, explain a bit about what your positions are, who you support and why.

            Fair enough?

          • avagreen

            or how to create one. I’ve asked by emails why I can’t access my profile in order fill it out, or have a signature line. So far, nada.

            And, along that line, I’m still deciding if I want to stay here or not.

            Thanks for the welcome (I think).

          • gekster

            You do what ever you want.
            You are not beholden to anyone on thiis site, just the posting rules.
            They are under the comment box.
            You can exercise free will, within said rules.
            The only thing I would have to say to you is to give backup and proof to any claims that you might make.
            And I give you a hardy welcome. :)
            (as for me, many ask who I support, and I won’t say, just because I don’t want to)

          • lineholder

            There’s a lot of negativity going round, far more than is usually seen here at RS. Don’t let that sway you. If you want to post a diary, that’s your choice.

            Also, there’s been a system change not long ago. I’m still in the old system, but apparently people who are in the new system have to go to the “help” and ask for permission to post a diary now. I hope this helps.

          • Scope

            a crock. There are thousands and thousands of members here at RS that have never written the first “diary,” meaning article. There is no requirement by RS, or any member, or management team member that requires that any new member spell there ideas, opinions, positions or anything else. You are looking for ava, and others to put their political history, adherence to conservative ideology, and their personal beliefs on display, for your approval. There are plenty of people here that don’t hold to your conservative beliefs, and some are outright moderates. No one has been banned unless they post, or display a liberal political philosophy.

            Again, I will say to you, you are trying to make RS what you want it to be, rather than what it is, and always has been. You don’t get to set the rules, the ideology, the philosophy, or the tone of RedState, as much as you want to do so.

          • lineholder

            If avagreen isn’t interested in compiling a diary or has more important things to attend to, that’s that person choice. It was a suggestion about an opportunity that avagreen, as a new poster has, to introduce themselves to other people for the site and present the reasons why they support a specific candidate as President.

          • Scope

            presented herself for the reasons that she supports the candidate that she did. She has no reason to qualify herself as a poster, just as no one else does. Why haven’t you asked every other new poster here to “present” themselves, rather than the ones that have not supported the candidate that you do? There has never been any requirement for anyone here to provide a political biography for themselves.

          • Scope

            and that “we” don’t like it. You really need to speak for yourself. You may not like what the newer members are saying, but, on the other hand there are many that appreciate what they are saying. Because they are not posting to your standards, or in support of your candidate, you are not incontrol of RS, or the blam hammer. You have no right to tell anyone how or what they post. You have an agenda, and it isn’t the agenda of RS. Get off your high horse.

          • rightwingmom52

            a lot longer than at least a couple of the candidates. Want to guess which ones? And I’m not talking about Cain, either. But we all know only you and those who agree with you are the true conservatives. /sarc

            lineholder has a lengthy record of thoughtful and respectful comments and diaries here at redstate. There is plenty of evidence that her comments and diaries are also very respected by many of the members here. How could you possibly know how long she’s been a conservative or how long she’s been blogging?

            That being said, lineholder is perfectly capable of taking up for herself, but I happen not to like the pack mentality. So if you and scope and whoever else wants to pile on me next, have at it.

            At this point, I couldn’t care less what you think of me or my opinions, and I doubt I ever will. I’m sure that feeling is mutual which is really very sad because ultimately we should be on the same side.

          • avagreen

            ……..it seems to be the folks opposite of my viewpoints doing that. Just to set the record straight here.

            I haven’t made lengthy posts here, but I have no other sites if you’d like to read them.
            I not a “drive-by” whatever you want to call it. I’m looking for a conservative base to call home. I’ve been on several sites, but they were getting really ugly b/c their candidate wasn’t mine. I was cussed at, called names (kinduv like here), so I left. BTW, both of their candidates are either not running at this time, or are so low in the polls to be non-existent.

          • rightwingmom52

            about me, I don’t run around trying to get folks with whom I disagree banned. I have asked the mods occasionally to take a look at comments if I thought the rules were broken, i.e., profanity, racist comments and once when somebody called me a liar (the mods chose to ban), but generally, I leave that to others who seem to take some sort of pleasure in it.

            As for “drive-by”, I don’t think I’ve ever even used that term here at all. We have had a couple of previous exchanges, but I don’t recall either of us being uncivil or disrespectful to each other. I can assure you I’ve never used profanity, not even the shorthand kind. I’ve had some pretty vigorous disagreements with more than one regular which I appreciate because they’ve forced me to think about my opinions and defend my positions. However, I don’t think any of them would accuse me of being disrespectful or “mean” or of “slapping” their hands.

            However, sometimes I can let my emotions get the better of me, There are certainly comments I wish I could take back. One in particular that I regret for which I posted an apology, but have no idea if the person ever saw it. When I’m wrong on an issue or if I’ve misjudged someone, I am not beyond apologizing and have done so on both counts here more than once. I took issue with your comment about longevity which seemed to me that you were throwing out as a yardstick by which to measure one’s conservatism. If that was not your intent, then I sincerely apologize.

            One more thing. As I got more involved in politics over the past several years, redstate became by far my favorite blog. It was the first place I went in the am to check political news, current events, etc., and it was something I looked forward to every day. I went to the redstate gathering back in August by myself. First time I’d ever done anything like that which should be an indication of how much I care about this site and what I think it means to conservatism. Personally, and I am speaking only for myself, I do not enjoy seeing candidates and their supporters tear each other apart. I despise the name-calling, the distortion of comments by taking them out of context, or guilt by association, or always assuming the worst, all in the name of “it’s just politics”. And to my dismay, I’m sure there’s a comment or two I’ve made floating around on the net that someone with sharp google skills could find (probably about Ron Paul or Romney) where I’m guilty of one or more of the very things I say I despise. I’m only human and have never pretended to be anything other than a lowly sinner. But I have been trying to make a conscious effort to build up those candidates I like without tearing the others down, especially when I think we have a golden opportunity to contrast what is good and right and positive and optimistic about conservatism with the failed liberal policies of the left. In my humble opinion, we would be much more effective in displaying that contrast if we took the high road. Perhaps that’s too much to ask in politics, or at least it seems to be too much to ask of some.

            Finally, for the umpteenth time (even though some don’t want to believe it), although Cain is currently in my #1 slot, nothing is set in stone until I pencil in that little circle on my ballot. Perry and Gingrich are running a pretty close 2nd, with Perry having the edge. Bachmann and Santorum (yes, I’m probably one of the few who is glad he’s been around for a while) are in the middle of the pack pretty far ahead of Romney and the others. My top 3 may or may not move from their current positions, but if they do, it will be because someone has given me positive reasons to do so, not because they’ve torn down the others.

          • avagreen

            That’s my record…..since we’re measuring how who’s is the longest.

          • pttx333

            so excited to finally be old enough to vote (21 at the time). Living in Texas, my family were all conservative Democrats, but I just never voted that way and haven’t to this very day. My folks were still Dems when they passed away and never could understand why I wasn’t. I told them that I had learned to read and just didn’t read the same way they did. ;-) I’ll bet your folks were appalled also, avagreen! I suppose it was shocking to the elders then, since there were few Republicans in Texas at the time.

            Yep, talk about old-timers – I’m certainly one. And proud of it, I might add!

          • Scope

            So do many many others here RWM. There was a time that some of the old RS stalwarts controlled the site, and controlled whatever was said, and the message. Those clicks were broken up RWM, and that is how it should be. Not any click that goes against a whole new set of members should be honored or respected, because they have become the RS matriarchs. New members, posting respectfully, civilly, and providing back-up for their posts are not those that should be ostracized by an means. Because they are not posting in support of the candidate you support, doesn’t mean that you have to be the mean old step mom, and slap their hands for not doing as ordered by you and the rest of the click that has developed. You should know what happens when clicks form here, gang up, and pile on some of the newer members.

            Have a good evening BTW. I’m off to bed for now. I will defend the new members that have been more than respectful, unlike the guy you people wanted to defend because he was on your side, even though his only goal here was to taunt the Perry supporters.

            If you want to dig in, and by your comment your apparently do, don’t expect to strengthen your click while doing so.

          • libdestroyer

            So it’s a “who has been conservative longer” argument?
            Perry CERTAINLY has NO flip flops right?

            Perry-colored glasses.

          • Scope

            Apparently you think not many are aware of Alinsky rules for radicals. “Use ridicule, it’s almost impossible to defend. Just be sure you use it in good humor, and never in anger. For ridicule to work, it has to be done calmly and usually with a sense of humor.

            So you find avagreen, bzip, and probably everyone else that has posted their concerns, and their opinions of Cain to be “hilarious.”

            For those posting their opinions, links, arguments and quotes from Cain, don’t bite to the Alinsky tactic being used. The best response is to counter the ridicule with staying with your message. Otherwise just ignore the Alinsky tactic of ridicule being portrayed by lineholder.

          • Scope

            by Alinsky, which is “take the moral high ground.” After all, libs think they are the most moral people on earth. It is a means to an end.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            LOL

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            are suspect!

            I prefer to judge comments rather than commenters but when jerkettes jerk off too much, the Wrath of Super Rooster smacks them down and but hard…see crying in fetal position in the corner…smile

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            and I loved my children most when disciplining them. I loved Perry when I called him out for the cheap personal shot at an in-state tuition paying gardner. He knows that now, but like my own children, often the sibling watching the whipping (role now being played by Scope as Perry’s sister) takes longer to get over it…and sometimes never does and ends up having to be committed to a -bot-asylum.

          • lineholder

            happened about the “right to return” comments Cain made? You can go back and look, but I was very hard on him.

            Conservatives aren’t “easy”. They’re not “sheeples”. For the most part, we’re relatively objective in seeing both the strengths and weaknesses in the candidates representing us.

            I don’t see that as being wrong, Mike. Constructive criticism can actually make people stronger.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            to him until he got himself up to speed. It beats life-long pols entrenched in illogical positions and with favors owed due to knowledge of whether bodies are buried, so to speak.

          • bzip

            How many times do we have to catch Cain in a lie, walking back statements:

            Herman Cain?s ?truth problem?
            http://hotair.com/archives/2011/10/23/herman-cains-truth-problem/

            A really good summary in general of some of Cain’s biggest lies (thankful to WBF Diary for the link):
            http://stevedeace.com/news/iowa-politics/hermans-head/

            Then there is the famous, “No Need To Audit the Federal Reserve According to Herman Cain”
            http://youtu.be/uiAkeFJXwUk

          • bzip

            http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/herman-cains-top-flip-flops/story?id=14790284

            These are going to continue to hound Cain. If these flip-flops and additional flaps come out from Cain’s camp I don’t think the other candidates are going to have to worry about going after Cain (he will do his own worse damage to himself).

          • Scope

            After Cain’s comments in 2 townhalls where he said he was going to build a 20 ft high fence, and electrify it, and put signs on it saying “This will kill you” in both english and spanish has not gone over well in the hispanic commununity. Republican hispanic organizations, and websites have been furious with his comments, they are not taking it as a “joke.”

            There is a Republican hispanic effort in AZ to increase the number of hispanic republicans, and to get good conservative hispanics elected to various offices. According to their website, they have been making great gains in converting hispanics from Democrats to Republicans. Before Cain made his remarks, they asked him to please be careful of his rhetoric, as the inflamatory rhetoric turns off even the legal hispanics, and keeps them in the Democrat column.

            I’ve read that the Republican contingent of hispanics in Texas are now switching parties again, away from Republicans, because they are also furious with Cain’s “joke.”

            Yesterday, on the segment on CNN where EE appeared as a guest, the host brought up the immigration issue, and said that it is going to be a very important issue in 2012. She showed some type of poll where the majority said that immigration was important to them, a little power percent said that it was Very Important to them, and the fewest number went to Not Important. The host asked EE about the GOP candidates, and their positions on immigration, and EE rightfully said that the immigration issue favors Romney in the primary, because he has appeared to be tougher on immigration, but it hurts him in the general. OTOH, Perry is hurt in the primary, because he seems to be weak on immigration, but his position helps him in the general.

            There is an article at the Hill today covering the GOP candidates positions on immigration, and it rightfully points out that the harsh rhetoric being used by some of the GOP candidates, particularly Cain’s comments, has hurt the chances of the GOP to make any gains into the hispanic community. It has long been a problem with the Tom Tancredo type of Republicans, as they alienate the hispanics population, legal or otherwise.

            Cain’s comments unfortunately are being used against the entire Republican party, as though he is the spokesperson for all Republicans as to immigration.

            Cain has done an incredible amount of damage to the GOP in whole with his loose lips. He alienated the moderate leaning Democrats by calling the blacks that vote Democrat “brainwashed.” That’s great way to attract voters. Then he alienates the hispanic population with his fence comments. He has alienated the evangelical block with his confusing abortion comments. He has alienated the muslims with his comments that he wouldn’t have any of them in his administration. How many more blocks of voters is he going to alienate before he stops opening his mouth just to exchange feet.? Yet, this is the guy topping many polls?

            With the middle east literally on fire, and going with more radical islamuists with their new government elections. With the EU in the ditch with massive debt and defaults looming. With an increasingly volatile situation between Pakistan and Afghanistan heating up, Cain, again, makes a joke and says uzbeki-beki-beki stan. Clinton was shown on TV in a meeting with Karzi, and they laughed at Cain, but not at his joke. This is the guy we need to learn foreign relations on the job. His foreign policy experience involves reading the writings of John Bolton and Henry Kissenger?

            God save us from our own stupidity. At times I’m not sure that we are even going to make it to the next election with the damage and destruction that Obama is doing to this country. But we are going to nominate someone with a tissue paper thin resume for the highest office in the land, to save us?

          • retire05

            In the late 19th and early 20th century, America saw a huge influx of immigrants from Ireland and Italy. Many were uneducated and fleeing the poverty in their own nations. The U.S. was viewed as “the land of opportunity” where they could work and build a better life for themselves and their families.

            But it didn’t quite work out how they thought it would. The Irish were portrayed in the papers as monkeys or drunken sots.. They were shoved into tenement housing, our first slums. Same with the Italians who were portrayed as evil, criminal and to be politically incorrect, “greasy.” These new immigrants took the jobs no one wanted either because the jobs paid almost nothing or because it was too dangerous. So they filled the ranks of cops, fire fighters, railroad workers, high rise building iron workers, etc.

            Seeing a prime opportunity to increase their ranks, the Democrats played to those sterotypes. They convinced these new immigrants that the Rupublicans were nothing more than robber barons who just wanted to get richer off the backs of the immigrant. And it worked. It gave us huge swatches of Irish and Italian neighborhoods where the Democrats ruled; Boston, Chicago, New York, St. Louis. And here we are 150 years later where those areas are still controlled by the Democrats although those immigrant communities have since melted into the general population. Old habits are hard to break.

            Now we are seeing the same thing with the Hispanic population. Mention a Hispanic surname, and the first thing that comes to someone’s mind is “illegal.” Yet, in states like mine, the Hispanic community has been here longer than the Anglos. Three Hispanics (Mexicans) signed the first Texas Constitution, Francis Ruiz, J. Antonio Navarro and Lorenzo de Zavala. Mexicans fought in the Texas Revolution, pushed for statehood and held public office since the beginning.

            Hispanics, by and large, are a good fit for the Republican Party. Strong family ties, anti-abortion, religious, and hard working. The shift in Texas among Hispanics to the Republican Party have given us Congressmen like Bill Flores and Francisco Canseco. Yet, the debates have come off sounding like a slam against Hispanics, even to those who can trace their families back to this country for 200 years. Marco Rubio and Francisco Canseco are two great examples of first generation Hispanics.

            But as with any ethnic group, attack one of them, and you attack all of them. With Cain’s “braindead” remark, he attacked any black American who has traditionally voted Democrat. Not exactly a way to win friends and influence people. His fence remarks went way over the line. He did not say he would put the sign in the languages of those entering our nation illegally, which would include Farsi, Chinese, etc., but in English and Spanish only, indicating that Mr. Cain seems to be unaware that although those of Hispanic heritage make up the bulk of illegal immigration, Chinese illegal immigration is on the rise. Picking out one language is nothing more than picking on one ethnic group. And even Hispanic Republicans understand that.

            Review our history and you will see that at certain times in it, there were influxes of immigrants from one particular country, be it the Irish, the Italians or the Germans. Now it is from nations where Spanish is the language. Eventually, those Hispanics will blend into the stew that is our national heritage. Are Republicans going to make the same mistake with Hispanics it made with the Irish and Italians, creating a base for the Democrat Party that will still be standing 100 years from now? It would seem so.

          • izoneguy

            South of border, Romney’s Mexican roots run deep

            The Mexican Romneys are descendants of Miles Park Romney, who came to the Chihuahua desert in 1885 seeking refuge from U.S. anti-polygamy laws. He had four wives and 30 children, and on the rocky banks of the Piedras Verdes River, he and his fellow Mormon pioneers carved out a prosperous settlement beyond the reach of U.S. federal marshals. He was Mitt’s great-grandfather.

            Gaskell Romney, Mitt’s grandfather, settled in Mexico as well, and Mitt’s father, George Romney, was born in nearby Colonia Dublan.

            Mitt’s conservative values are widely shared here ? with the possible exception of his views on immigration.

            “The Hispanic vote is becoming powerful in the U.S., and I don’t think Mitt understands the causes of illegal immigration,” said Kelly Romney, another Mexican-born cousin who lives beside the Mormon temple, and whose family raises cattle and chili peppers.

            The family has at least one Democrat, Jeff Romney, who voted for Obama in 2008 and said he “horrified” the town when he showed up a few years ago with a Hillary Rodham Clinton sticker on his car.

            “Not all Mormons are Republicans,” said Jeff, the fundraising director of the El Paso Museum of Art, cracking a smile. “But I might vote for Mitt.”

            Polygamy Prominent in GOP Presidential Hopeful Mitt Romney’s Family Tree

  • jrhode2873

    I’m one of Cain’s biggest supporters but this abortion thing has me really confused on where he really stands. First the interview, then his varying responses to the criticisms such as his appearance on Fox News today. What’s the deal? Has he not contemplated all the different aspects of the abortion issue not just the moral aspect. I have no doubt that he is morally opposed to abortion. But, what does he really think government’s role should be when it comes to protecting the unborn? As a Herman Cain supporter, I cannot answer the question if you ask me. I’m still giving him the benefit of the doubt for now. This issue could sink his candidacy because if his supporters are confused and don’t know where he stands, he is in real trouble.

    My second choice would be Newt at this point. I like Perry’s politics and his record but he has been a disaster as a candidate.

    • circlegranch

      If we’re looking for a candidate that has been in the fight during this recession and actually can put up a solid record of realtime achievement (jobs creation,tort reform, reducing taxes for individuals and small businesse, etc), we have to go with Perry. He checks enough boxes that in a different environment his early lead would have held. By ‘different environment’, I refer to the one of abject hostility toward Perry coming from the one network that supposedly wants to be Fair and Balanced. If we showed up at a debate knowing in advance that the moderaters had met and brainstormed ways to frame questions and tone to take us down as Chris Wallace did, we’d probably be off our game as well. If we knew in advance there was a programming mandate unfavorable to us coming from the single network that gives conservatives a fair shake, we’d be rather stiff and extremely cautious as we weighed our answers too. If Fox is against a candidate, who can be counted on to be for them?

      There is, I believe, a very big back story here that isn’t being told. I’ve defined it thus far as a Roger Ailes/Fox agenda to get Romney and Nobody But Romney and there’s substance to that because if you go down the list of hosts on Fox News, find one that will give Perry a decent shake. They either talk about everybody else all together or if mentioned there’s a definite tone of disapproval. Case in point was Greta last night. She had Rove on and she asked him how candidates could improve their chances of getting the nomination and she ticked off Cain, Gingrich, Santorum. It would seem if there’s anybody that needs some pointers from the’pros’ these days it would be Rick. On Mark Levin’s program last night, he discussed 999 in some depth and said he absolutely could not endorse it because its a VAT tax and the only way it would work is by repeal of the 14th amend. He went on to say that conservatives also need to get behind real tax reform, something like a flat tax or whatever and then whoosh! He’s done, moving on and not a word about Perry’s flat tax plan. After days of propaganda that Paul Ryan ‘loves’ 999 he finally came out and set that erroneous record straight. Steve Forbes came out and really did applaud Perry’s plan and its getting little press. A commercial running this a.m. on Fox and Friends for Fox Business Network says, “Is Perry’s flat tax plan falling flat with voters?” Interpretation: We WANT it to fall flat even though all during the tea party era the idea of a Forbes-inspired flat tax was widely supported. They are setting up the notion that voters will reject Perry’s plan before they have a chance to take a look. After all, if its said on Fox, its law and gospel to a conservative. On program after program we hear over and over comments such as “God bless Cain for bringing tax reform to the front of the conversation. Even if his plan has flaws and would need alot of tweeking, at least he’s talking about tax reform and making it a national conversation.” Nevermind he’s walking back parts of it almost on a daily basis, its Cain and Cain alone that gets accolades for talking about tax reform. Perry’s plan? Oh, that’s already being rejected by voters, didn’t you know? Perry takes sufficient time to get a solid plan in place and he’s criticized for being slow. Laura Inghram in a conversation w/ Haley Barbour really slammed Perry for not having his plan in place and ready for scrutiny before the Bloomberg debate. She injected a good dose of her usual sarcasm about it, and conveniently failed to also add that Bloomberg News dubbed Perry, “America’s Jobs Governor” after his debate performance. Bloomberg reconizes what most Americans do, and that is, its first and foremost about JOBS and there’s one and one only candidate in this race that has created alot of jobs in this downturn and his jobs/energy plan will ignite our economy in a fast burn for many more jobs. President Rick Perry will drill, frack and dig our way out of this emergent mess and as energy production gets started, a multitude of small businesses will be created to meet the demand of supporting those industries. Jobs in every facet of our economy will be created when we use an energy based economic plan to get things rolling. As we drill, dig, nuke and frack, new housing will be needed along with retail businesses, restaurants, and plenty of that liberal-loved trinity of roads/bridges/schools. The list is virtually endless. We may not have a rehearsed, fast talking president announcing the progress or a president that explains what’s being done via jokes and analogies, but we’ll have the substance of real action and progress and results. Cain joked with Hannity this week that he was going to hire Neal Boortz and Mark Levin as press secretaries. That would work well for a president that has as his most recent resume entry a talk show host. Maybe Perry can appoint somebody that reflects his most recent accomplishment–jobs–to speak on his behalf.

      Something is afoot and somebody has a big smear campaign up their sleeve. Gov. Barbour said as much when he spoke with Laura I. He said the vast majority of defining information in this campaign has yet to surface. That’s an indication of very bad news for somebody’s campaign and Barbour is a king maker and he pulls some big strings in the Party. If he throws out a tease like that, he’s got something to back it up.

      Buckle up and get ready for an even more brutal primary in the coming weeks. Something is brewing and it ain’t a pot of tea…..

      • bzip

        Well stated: If people haven’t noticed a Romney/Cain ticket is being pushed hard and fast. They want Cain on th ticket to bring aboard the Tea Party people.

        It should be very clear there programing is doing everything to ensure bad press for Perry and setting the stage up for it.

        Once again I ask, have all you true conservatives and Tea Party people lost track of your principles?

        If you haven’t notice Cain = big gov’t Cain isn’t truly the conservative you would like to think:

        ?He backed the Wall Street bailout, or according to Cain, the ?recovery plan,? as he called it on his radio show. Cain wrote that nationalizing banks ?is not a bad thing.?

        “Herman Cain favors Federal Government intervention in the work place on the behalf of blacks and minorities?

        • avagreen

          Let Fox have the MSNBC crowd, which I’ve heard is what they are angling for.

          There are more conservatives than liberals.
          http://www.gallup.com/poll/148745/Political-Ideology-Stable-Conservatives-Leading.aspx
          August 1, 2011
          U.S. Political Ideology Stable With Conservatives Leading
          Most Republicans are conservative, but one in five is “very conservative”
          by Lydia Saad

          PRINCETON, NJ — Americans’ political ideology at the midyear point of 2011 looks similar to 2009 and 2010, with 41% self-identifying as conservative, 36% as moderate, and 21% as liberal.

          U.S. political ideology.gif

          If this pattern continues, 2011 will be the third straight year that conservatives significantly outnumber moderates — the next largest ideological bloc. Liberalism has been holding steady for the past six years, averaging either 21% or 22%, although notably higher than the 17% average seen in Gallup polling during the early to middle ’90s.

          I think they will find, to their regret, that they have chosen the wrong model.

          • Menlo

            Many like the idea of conservatism in general, but they don’t care for the particulars in practice.

            The problem is that, with a few variations, nearly 3/4 of self-identified “moderates” seem to be effectively liberal by policy standards. The same seems to hold true for about 1 in 5 self-described “conservatives.” Remember John Paul Stevens identified himself as a “conservative,” and there are more like him.

            It’s not a meaningful measure because people have such different standards. Most people just don’t like the terminology; it doesn’t mean they reject the philosophy. In fact, a much larger share will identify as “progressive.”

        • acat

          If anything, Fox is closer to being The Centrist Network than being The Conservative Network. There’s still nothing on the idiot’s lantern that this cat can find that is as solidly conservative as Red State.

          Fox is in the tank for Romney. Bought and paid for? Perhaps. Perhaps just the same northeastern “center of the universe” mentality. Close mental kin to those Galileo got in trouble with. “The whole of the U.S.A. orbits N.Y.C.”

          Mew

        • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

          who knew?

      • retire05

        circlegranch, you could not be more correct. Weeks before Perry even got in the race, Charles Krauthammer on Fox was asking “Will the nation accept another president from Texas?” WTF? What was that. Then, every time you turned on Fox, Karl Rove was on, steathly downplaying not just Perry, but his own state. For a week, the headlines talked about the Rove/Perry feud.

        Once Perry got in, and started to skyrocket, Fox said “well, what goes up, must come down” and downplayed Perry’s appeal. Ann Coulter pushed Christie with every interview, but when Christie declined, she switched to Romeny, loud and clear. Un huh, and she is seeking the most conservative candidate? I think not.

        Chris Wallace not only dislikes Perry, he dislikes Texas. How dare us rebels make the other states look like the disasters they are from generations of liberal/liberal lite Republicans controlling them? The audacity of Texas to think that conservatism, small goverment, marginal debt is the way to go. Don’t we hillbillies understand that only the northern elites know what is best for this nation?

        Add to that the rock seeking left wing newpapers like WaPo. Where were they trying to find Obama’s Palestinian drug dealing roommate while Obama was at Columbia? Oh, that’s right, they had all been dispatched to Wasilla, Alaska.

        Perry is a threat to the establishment GOP. If you get anything from Rove’s comments, it’s that Perry doesn’t play the D.C. beltway games, not in Texas and he won’t in D.C. Rove knows that. So does Krauthammer. And Wallace? Well, that acorn didn’t fall far from the tree, did it?

        For a week, Fox talked about a rock. Not one mention of the Boston Globe expose that showed Romney to be a hypocrite by hiring illegals, when he was a sitting governor. Not one word how he was born with a silver spoon in his mouth only to go on and buy the whole silver service through his daddy’s connections. And while Fox touted McCain’s service, not one work about Perry’s seven years in the military.

        Fox is in the tank for Romney, and O’Reilly, Krauthammer, Hannity, and Wallace prove it everytime they open their mouths and opine. Once again, the media is trying to pick our candidate, and Good Lord, we can’t have some upstart from Texas be that candidate. He took on the trial lawyers in his state. What if he does that for the country as a whole?

        Fox talks about how badly Perry does in the debates and how great Romney is; presidential, collected, on point, yada, yada. But no mention that Romney has been doing this for six years. Perry has been at this game for six weeks. And when Romney attacks Perry, why, that’s just politics. When Perry goes after Romney, Perry is “mean, rude, out-of-line.”

        The fix in in and anyone with two grey cells bumping together knows it.

        • anxious4change

          but you’ll notice quite a bit more support for him on the FOX Business network, which I find myself tuned into much, more more. I can’t stand the outright disdain for Perry by everyone you named and then some, and the unabashed support of Romney. Fair & balanced? I don’t think so.

      • politicalgal1

        to run analysis of their own commentators. They will find they have been extremely “unbalanced” in their positive/negative coverage of the Republican candidates. While I understand the producers of the various Fox programs determine the narrative, I am extremely disappointed in the lack of depth of critical thinking displayed by the Fox commentators. Most of them are book smart in that a great majority of them are attorneys. However, they are extremely naive in street smarts. Just a few examples:

        Bill Hemmer – on the day Rick Perry released his energy and jobs plan, he made the comment “All candidates have a plan, right?” There was no intellectual curiosity of the difference in the plans. However, his body language was quite telling.

        Sean Hannity – after the release of Perry’s energy plan, who does Sean have on to discuss it? Romney’s Republican strategist and a Democratic strategist. Why not have an economist or an expert from the energy industry to discuss it?

        Sean Hannity – had Bobby Jindal on. Sean said something to the effect “Now that Governor Perry has fallen in the polls, have you changed your mind about supporting him?”

        Gregg Jarrett – “I predict Rick Perry will crash and burn just like Rudy Guiliani”. I don’t know what it is about the ego of attorneys. However, Jarrett does not have the critical thinking skills to dig deeply into economic issues.

        Greta Van Susteren – Announced that Paul Ryan endorsed 9-9-9 when in fact he did not endorse the plan. In fact, in watching a recent video when Ryan was asked about 9-9-9, it was evident he did not understand the plan. He described the 9% business tax as being on net profit. That is certainly not the case.

        Bill Hemmer & Martha McCallum – continued to focus on the Mormon statement days after the Pastor Jeffress made the comment which has nothing to do with Rick Perry.

        The list goes on and on. Quite frankly, I have tuned into CNN because I get more fair and balanced commentary on the candidates there than on Fox.

        • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

          does accept too much PC conventional wisdom of the NYT at times. Good idea.

      • joayn

        When I read on Ben’s Transom yesterday that Fox has been added in yet two more debates I totally view this as another manipulation by Fox to focus on getting Cain and Romney over the finish line. I fully realize that the debates are Perry’s to lose, but I really fear that there will be an overt attempt by Fox to push for their preferred candidates for Iowa and South Carolina.

        More debates!

        Fox News said Thursday that it would sponsor two additional Republican presidential debates, adding to an already packed schedule of face-offs.

        The network will join with the Republican Party of Iowa for a debate on Dec. 15 in Sioux City. That debate will be just over two weeks before the state?s Jan. 3 caucuses.

        Fox will also partner with the Republican Party of South Carolina to hold a debate in Myrtle Beach on Jan. 16. South Carolina is scheduled to hold its primary on Jan. 21.

        ?We are pleased to host these additional Republican presidential debates and provide viewers an opportunity to gain more insight into the nominees at such critical junctures in the 2012 election season,? said Michael Clemente, the senior vice president of news for the network.

        And I would like to add that Greta asked about Romney, Cain, Santorum, Newt, and RON PAUL! Seriously, Ron Paul? But no Perry or Bachmann? It was weird.

        BTW, Perry will be on O’Reilly Monday or Tuesday (I think it’s Tuesday but check it out – I was fixing dinner and didn’t hear Bill’s announcement clearly). I do think O’Reilly has given all the candidates who have been on his show an equal going-over, with no favoritism that I have seen.

        I will be watching Neil Cavuto on Fox Business next week to see how he treats Perry’s tax plan.

        • circlegranch

          because that’s another highly contentious issue for Gov. Perry that has been maligned and lied about too, and our good buddies at Fox have fostered the environment conduciive to the attacks. Never the full story, just the spin. Their behavior saddens me—and it worries me because our sources of purity in information are shrinking.

          Good catch on your part in noticing Fox sponsoring more debates. I knew they were coming but hadn’t paid attention to the sponsors. As you note, the timing of them right before debates clearly reeks of their agenda.

          We have to get out and talk and email our contacts about what we are seeing. This bias of Fox and the lies on misstatements on candidates is a fire that needs setting and quick.

          Quite frankly, all the focus on OWS is a distraction. The entire effort is staged to hang around Gov. Romney’s neck once he’s the nominee. It’s part of the Obama reelection strategy. There’s more issues going on than that. It’ll take folks like us to try and keep the focus.

      • Flagstaff

        It’s worse than calling Social Security a Ponzi scheme. (^;^)

        A single final sales tax on new products is not a VAT, so why keep using that term?

        A VAT is much preferred big government types because they get all but the final increment of tax before the product is even sold, in fact, even if it’s never sold, and it’s hidden from the end buyer. None of that describes Cain’s sales tax.

        I have way too many opinions about this topic because of all the aspects that aren’t being considered, one of which is the effect a transfer to a major sales tax will have on seniors. Mr. Cain’s 999 will hurt those of us who will not gain by the elimination of the FICA tax. I calculated the other day that Obama will call me “rich” right up to the time the bank takes my house.

      • pttx333

        certain it will be a biggie when it surfaces. Since Governor Barbour is aware of it, we can only pray it will be good for our side.

        While I was once an avid Fox viewer, that ceased a good while back when they changed dramatically (in my view, at least). My opinion has not changed, though I will be watching O’Reilly on Tuesday long enough to hear the interview with Perry. Other than that, the odious O’Reilly will not be on my tv set.

    • Tbone

      Of course, somehow he managed to get elected the Governor of Texas 3 times where as Cain has managed to get elected to what?

      Hey, you want an inexperienced, gaff prone, inarticulate, flip-flopping black guy selling hope and change, you already got one.

      • avagreen

        Won the last election with over 50%.
        Yeah, he’s been a real disaster. /sarc/

        Many a state would like to have such a “disaster”. ;)

      • kcdude

        Perry has been a disaster as a candidate. He has been pretty much horrible on on the national debate stage but he sure does seem to be able to bring in the $$$. That is no small thing.

        • acat

          be either confused as actual debates, nor should they be given the weight some want them to have.

          Or, if you prefer, just because a kid does well on multiple choice testing doesn’t mean he or she can write an essay on the same topic.

          Mew

          • kcdude

            did not. Point is, no matter how you characterize the forum, he was just not good at all. I will say this. I found he did a fair job of making his points when I read the transcripts.

          • acat

            I don’t think Perry will have a problem bringing the heat to the Dem nominee. Needs some more practice, but .. he’ll do.

            Mew

          • circlegranch

            and then he can walk away and get back to some serious discussions and conversations.

        • bzip

          About Perry you say, “horrible on on the national debate stage”. Could anyone please explain to me how Cain is any better, his is constantly putting his foot in his mouth, a total gaffe machine.

          For Cain supporters could you please explain how you can turn your backs on the tea party principles of limited small gov’t?

          http://christiancitizens.org/herman_cain_for_president.html
          ?He backed the Wall Street bailout, or according to Cain, the ?recovery plan,? as he called it on his radio show. Cain wrote that nationalizing banks ?is not a bad thing.?

          “Herman Cain favors Federal Government intervention in the work place on the behalf of blacks and minorities?

          • kcdude

            better the position of the one letting it fly. I find it is good to be for something or someone (if I can do so and not have to hold my nose while doing it) and not just be against something or someone.

        • Tbone

          So far he just dances around every issue which makes him look a fool.

          • Xasteius

            Cain has a personal distaste for Rick Perry.

          • izoneguy

            Cain is the one coming off as petty and close-minded.

            I think Cain really fears Rick Perry, as well he should.

          • Scope

            Cain fears that Perry has the ability to knock off the top of the ticket he hopes to occupy as second best.

          • jackdaniels11

            He sounds like he’s just looking for soundbytes that resonate.

            He is all style and very little substance. Repeating a jingoistic slogan over and over does not qualify as substance. Especially when that slogan refers to a policy which will never be implemented and which would raise taxes on the poor and the middle class if it were implemented.

            I would prefer that the Democrat Party maintain their position as the party that wants to raise your taxes. If a Republican has to run on the platform of “I’ll raise your taxes, but your kids will thank me for it, we don’t have a prayer.”

            GHW Bush found out after he raised taxes on all drivers that the base will neither forget nor forgive a tax increase. Did Herman Cain’s unnamed advisers not study what happened in 1992 after Bush raised taxes?

          • Tbone

            negotiating with terrorists; turning loose Gitmo prisoners; being OK with abortion; Perry is a racist; I was against a VAT until I found out what VAT stood for; etc..

            That’s the resonance of tapping on a empty skull.

          • Flagstaff

            He sounds like he?s just looking for soundbytes that resonate.

            He is all style and very little substance. Repeating a jingoistic slogan over and over does not qualify as substance. Especially when that slogan refers to a policy which will never be implemented and which would raise taxes on the poor and the middle class if it were implemented.

            Perfectly reasonable. But did you notice how well that strategy worked last time? Not that we should try it, but it did work. In fact, the problem with Cain’s slogan is that it has too much substance associated with it.

            But you know, any change to tax policy that helps close the deficit is going to raise taxes on a lot of people, mostly people who pay little or no tax now and who will pay a little bit more after the change. The alternatives are (1) TAX THE RICH! or (2) don’t change any of that, just jigger things in the current system a bit.

            Personally, given the economy, I’m more and more leaning towards jiggering, and I’m not talking rum or vodka, although that has its own attraction.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            Essentially their new argument is if there are any embedded taxes in any manufactured goods other than those by the end product manufacturer, then its a VAT. Well, then our current code is a VAT because of corporate taxes being paid by suppliers of the manufacturers of goods.

          • Finrod

            ..

  • http://theheartlander.wordpress.com/ heartlander

    …he backtracked from his criticism of those who want to push sharia in this country, and made a public apology at an Islamist mosque headed by an imam who is the director of ISNA, which is a Muslim Brotherhood front organization!!!

    Sorry, but Cain is not ready for the big leagues.

    • SoFiMil

      to prevent the building of a religious edifice, and only well-crafted zoning laws have any say in this matter.

      Opposing Sharia law is one thing, but opposing the building of a mosque with the threat of government intervention is totally unacceptable. That being said, I accepted Mr. Cain’s apology.

      • Xasteius

        why is it okay when Cain makes a gaffe, but when Perry makes a comment , it defines his candidancy? Just because it’s aimed at the left?

        Curious.

        • SoFiMil

          Try again.

        • SoFiMil

          Sincere question and not snark. If it was to me, please explain.

          • Xasteius

            no text

        • SoFiMil

          Sincere question, and not snark. If this was to me, please explain.

          • SoFiMil

            Please disregard.

      • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

        backed off supporting those in Murfreesboro, TN that wanted to ban the building of a mosque anywhere w/i the town/county limits. The Free Exercise of Religion specifically means the right to worship God in one’s own way at a place of worship.

        What that town could do and what NYC could do is have time, place and manner restrictions that could limit where and by what design a mosque is built, but not ban the building of same outright.

        I actually supported Cain very early on and stopped “leaning” to Cain over this issue. I only came back after he renounced that position and then after 9-9-9.

        I now proudly lean to Cain, a man that learns from mistakes.

  • Wayne

    for some time now. It has helped to solidify my fragmented collection of thoughts on the subject, so thanks RQ for your efforts to put things in perspective.

    I could give a history of my choices over these many months and I’ve been loyal to my core values in the candidates that I’ve supported, only moving from one to the other when it became obvious that regardless of ideology my choice would not get the Republican nod.

    At this writing I’m in the Perry camp, but have been paying attention more to Newt because of his performance in the debates. Unfortunately, there hasn’t been much time for me to do my homework on Newt, though because of my age and political disposition, I am already aware of who Newt is and his political history.

    Like others here, I will swallow hard and vote for whomever the Republican Party nomination is for President. Knowing that there are many who won’t may influence the decline of the Party’s support of Romney and another candidate will get the nod. For me, right now it’s Perry or Newt.

    It really is a matter of making sure whomever we have representing us can end the OB madness once and for all, regardless of how the future looks with whomever as President, it will look much worse with OB.

    • politicalgal1

      he has a little “splanin” to do. According to Newt: Democratic politicians getting campaign contributions from Fannie and Freddie ? bad! Republican lobbyists getting paid by Fannie and Freddie to make the case against regulating the mortgage giants–good when it is Gingrich getting the lobbying money!

      http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/12/gingrich_slammed_pols_beholden.php

  • SoFiMil

    In particilar, I appreciated the thoughtful and reasoned diary by Gamecock which has given me pause for possible reconsideration or modification on a particular issue.

    • SoFiMil

      .

  • SoFiMil

    Good man, nonetheless.

    • bzip

      I suggest to start looking at what little paper trail there is on Cain because it is not good for Cain;

      (I want to thank Davidpw for being the first to catch this info)
      Cain has some explaining to do and the media once again isn?t doing their job vetting him:

      Herman Cain on the Issues – Pro Life or Pro Choice Abortion, or Pro Gay:
      http://christiancitizens.org/herman_cain_for_president.html

      A few examples:
      Affirmative action problem:
      ?Herman Cain favors Federal Government intervention in the work place on the behalf of blacks and minorities.?

      Fed Audit Problem:
      ?Herman Cain, former Chairman and Member of the Board of Directors for the Federal Reserve Bank of Kansas City, flippantly denies the need to Audit the Federal Reserve?

      TARP Problem:
      ?He backed the Wall Street bailout, or according to Cain, the ?recovery plan,? as he called it on his radio show. Cain wrote that nationalizing banks ?is not a bad thing.?

      School Voucher problem:
      ?Cain opposes school vouchers for private schools and backs efforts only to revisit, not eliminate, affirmative action.?

      http://christiancitizens.org/herman_cain_republican_quotes.html
      ?Herman Cain has made the cause of civil rights a major issue. Cain, who has been endorsed by Rainbow/PUSH’s Southeastern operations director Joe Beasley, stated he would vote for reauthorization of the Voting Rights Act. Herman Cain favors Federal Government intervention in the work place on the behalf of blacks and minorities?

      Herman Cain & Hillary Clinton: More In Common Than You Think
      http://politicalvine.com/news/newsview17514.html

      Then we have the Cain Gaffe Machine who can?t keep his foot out of his mouth.
      Cain was for an electric fence or not
      Cain is for exchanging GITMO prisoners or not
      Cain is not for auditing the fed or not
      Cain and racial baiting
      Cain fellow blacks are brain washed
      Cain was considered to be a moderate in his Senate race.

      • Wayne

        nt

      • rightwingmom52

        That poll is here.

        Why don’t you talk about some of the other stuff that’s on the site? Like where they call Bobby Jindal a RINO, support candidates they claim are more pro life than Jindal, and state that his Hindu background restricts his understanding of Christianity.

        Or how about the links to the mother jones (a despicable site) stories about Perry being gay or their list of Perry controversies,

        Rick Perry News
        More news about Rick Perry.
        While most of us do not believe that Rick Perry is gay, the rumors persist.
        http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/20/rick-perry-gay-rumors-_n_880969.html

        Mayor news stories when Rick Perry as Governor of Texas.
        http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/06/rick-perry-biggest-controversies

        http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jun/30/nation/la-na-0630-perry-bush-20110630

        I have not linked these stories because I don’t consider mother jones, huffpo or some of the other sites they link to as credible sources for conservatives. I blocked the text above only as an example of the kind of links they provide, and when I saw them, I went no further.

        If you’re going to use this as a credible source to attack Cain, you’d better be prepared to defend the despicable stories they link to or remarks they have made about Perry, Jindal and other conservatives.

        And for the record, Cain was not considered moderate in his 2004 Senate race. He was endorsed by redstate as a pro life candidate.

        • bzip

          You sure have a lot of issues here:
          1) I never talk about a “poll” much less offered a link to one.
          2) True, you have to watch out for the trashy sites that mostly involve rumor, I don’t deny that.
          3) How can anyone with any knowledge doubt the claims I brought up at the site http://christiancitizens.org/herman_cain_for_president.html link

          a)Lets look at Herman Cain in his own words from youtube regarding the point I make about Cain’s Fed Audit Problem:
          Cain denies the need to Audit the Federal Reserve?
          http://youtu.be/uiAkeFJXwUk

          That is one of thew issues that the link talks about and I brought out.

          b)Regarding the TARP issue that I brought out in that link:
          More of Auditing the fed problem and TARP:
          http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2011/03/more-on-koch-funded-herman-cain.html
          If you watch the debate in Vegas Cain clearly admitted in that debate he supported TARP

          c)School Vouchers Cain Opposes using other sources if you prefer:
          Opposes School vouchers and moderate social view of Cain:
          http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/280803/cain-im-100-percent-pro-life-katrina-trinko?page=2
          http://nationaljournal.com/magazine/from-pizza-to-k-street-to-president–19990306

          I believe I have covered every claim I made, back it up with other sources even using Cain’s owns worfds from YouTube and from the Debate.

          The following additional issues I brought up are all recent, all found easily at any given major news source and has largely been talk about ere at Redstate:

          Cain was for an electric fence or not
          Cain is for exchanging GITMO prisoners or not
          Cain is not for auditing the fed or not
          Cain and racial baiting
          Cain fellow blacks are brain washed

          I don’t deny you have to watch out for trashy sites using rumors but come on when Cain is found saying in videos these issues and problems you can’t use the excuse of a trashy site.

  • SoFiMil

    How us that a gaffe?! That’s the truth, and Cain was right to say it.

    • SoFiMil

      2nd time this morning “reply” button didn’t work for me.

  • kcdude

    forum for making a point without risking a threadjack.

  • Wayne

    NO TEXT

  • runner12

    I am personally leaning towards Perry, but he needs to continue to improve his communication skills. I love his energy plan, as I come from an energy state. Which, by the way, the energy companies in our state have been fantastic for our economy and community. You can always count on them to support just about every charity event there is. The myth of the “evil” energy companies is an urban legend, at least in my state.

    I have some concerns about Cain, but I am not completely opposed to him. I am disappointed that he has shown so much antipathy towards Perry. Idealogically, he seems to have more in common with Perry than Romney.

    Newt has his own baggage. I am concerned that he may go “establishment”, so to speak, if elected. But he is still better than Romney, in my opinion.

  • jackdaniels11

    Study the last 10 contested presidential primaries and tell me if a candidate (other than Clinton in 1992) has ever lost both Iowa and New Hampshire and then gotten the nomination.

    So Iowa and New Hampshire are pivotal. Iowa is a 3-horse race between Romney, Cain, and Perry. New Hampshire is a virtual lock for Romney barring an unforeseeable wave.

    Now look at polling data from the 8 most-crucial states in the general election: Ohio, Florida, Michigan, Colorado, North Carolina, Virginia, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. Any Republican who can win 6 of these states will be president. Any Republican who only wins 4 is in serious trouble.

    Let’s compare numbers:

    (Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statewide_opinion_polling_for_the_United_States_presidential_election,_2012; Date: 10-22-11)

    Ohio:

    Romney 46%, Obama 46% (Poll: PPP Oct 13-16)
    Cain 45%, Obama 48% (Poll: See above)
    Perry 41%, Obama 50% (Poll: See above)

    Florida:

    Romney 43%, Obama 45% (Poll: NBC/Marist Oct 10-12)
    Cain 41%, Obama 47% (Poll: See above)
    Perry 39%, Obama 50% (Poll: See above)

    Michigan:

    Romney 39%, Obama 50% (Poll: Survey USA Oct 12-14)
    Cain 32%, Obama 53% (Poll: See above)
    Perry 32%, Obama 53% (Poll: See above)

    (Note: This is a weird poll. All previous polls since December of last year have Romney running between -7% and even. They also show Perry running slightly better. Cain is slightly better in the one poll that he shows up in.)

    The trend continues in North Carolina, Virginia, Colorado, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin. It also persists in states like Nevada, New Hampshire, Iowa, Connecticut, New Jersey, Minnesota, New Mexico, and Nebraska. These states are too small or too historically Democrat (in the case of Minnesota and New Jersey) for me to consider them “crucial”. Yet, collectively, they are very important.

    The trend is the same even in safe states like Texas, Tennessee, and South Carolina.

    Romney polls better than Cain and Perry in all of these states. I see Cain/Perry supporters comparing Romney to McCain and/or Dole a lot on RS. These comparisons don’t hold up at all. McCain and Dole got into Congress based on their war records. They had no track record for fixing economic problems. McCain was known for McCain/Feingold and for his 7 years at the Hanoi Hilton. Dole was known for losing his right hand in WWII and for compromising with Clinton and thereby killing any hope that Gingrich might win his bet on the government shutdown. Romney’s candidacy has less in common with McCain/Dole than it does with Reagan and GW Bush.

    Both Reagan and GW had to work with Democratic legislatures but got a lot done by reaching across the aisle. Both Reagan and GW had made decisions as governor that discomfitted the base. But they were both great presidents. I know that a lot of people would have preferred a more conservative Bush presidency but he barely won in 2000 and 2004. I don’t see how a more conservative candidate like Pat Buchannan would have beaten either Gore or Kerry.

    We’ve got to do the right thing this time. Jay Cost did a great write-up of Obama’s 2012 strategy. It is all about shining a spotlight on his opponent. Therefore, picking a good debater is paramount. Picking someone who doesn’t have a penchant for making inflammatory statements is hugely important. We could seriously lose with either Cain or Perry. Gingrich is not on my radar until he starts polling in the top 3 AND gets at least $5 million in one quarter.

    I’ve never seen a primary election where so much was at stake. I can’t afford another 4 years of BHO. I’ve made less money during his presidency than I have during Bush’s or Clinton’s presidencies.

    A BHO re-election would mean 4 years of zero accountability. BHO would finish off our military and the private sector. We can’t afford that.

    • retire05

      you’re nuts.

      We don’t cotton to slick talkin’, Ken doll looking used car salesmen.

      • pttx333

        …

      • jackdaniels11

        Here are the numbers from the most recent Texas polls:

        From the PPP poll from June 25 through June 27:

        Romney: 50%, Obama: 42%
        Perry: 45%, Obama: 47%
        Cain 43%, Obama 42%

        (Sample size: 795 Registered voters) (a large sample size compared to most polls)

        From the PPP poll from Jan. 14 – Jan. 16:

        Romney: 49%, Obama 42%
        Perry: 45%, Obama 45%

        (No numbers for Cain in this poll.)

        (Sample size: 892 Registered voters) (a very large sample size compared to other polls)

        That’s all we’ve got. If you’d like to do your own scientific poll of Texans, you’re welcome to. The only polls that have been completed that compare Romney, Perry, and Cain according to their strength against Obama show that Romney is the strongest against Obama EVEN IN TEXAS.

        • acat

          That’s a head-to-head poll, which are pretty much useless until both candidates are selected.

          What you need to be comparing are Favorable/Unfavorable numbers for all three candidates.

          Our own Neil (http://www.unlikelyvoter.com) is usually quite clear on this. Not sure how you’ve missed it.

          Mew

          • jackdaniels11

            I’m interested in finding out which candidate polls best against Obama. Favorable/Unfavorable polls won’t tell me that.

          • acat

            Neil on the pre-debate polling

            Neil on why polling in Iowa is harder than it looks.

            Neil looks at the top three as Cain surges

            Neil looks at the Cain surge

            Neil’s Unlikely Voter site

            Go forth and educate yourself. Just looking at “who can beat Obama” this far out is problematic on two fronts. First, there’s always the possibility that any of our top three may flame out a la Howard Dean….

            Second, I remain convinced it’s folly for us to calibrate our candidate to facing Obama. This was a large part of my opposition to Candidate Palin – she’s the perfect anti-Obama, just as McCain was the perfect anti-Hillary.

            If the Dems pull a bait-and-switch – and I’ve been arguing that they will for years now – I do not want to be stuck with a candidate whose only option is to run as the anti- of someone not in evidence.

            Mew

          • jackdaniels11

            Both Perry and Cain (particularly Perry) have been described as the “anti-Obama” candidate. Supposedly because their views are so conservative (although with Cain, we now know that he has no idea what his policies are).

            Romney is a candidate who is not anyone’s opposite, he’s just a conservative who speaks well, debates well, and thinks clearly.

            If the Dems want to switch out Obama for any other Democrat, Romney will hold his own against that Democrat.

            Ultimately it comes down to this simple question, first used by Ronald Reagan in 1984 and then effectively borrowed by Clinton in 1996, “Are you better off than you were 4 years ago?”

            No one I know is better off than they were 3 years ago. Obama can try to blame that on Bush if he wants. Lord knows he’s been singing that song for the last 3 years.

            But it’s getting old. Voters now know that Obama has used up all the tricks in his bag and now wants to keep playing the cards (stimulus cards, anti-business cards, health care cards) that got us further into the recession.

            Therefore, any Republican who doesn’t shoot himself in the foot over the next 12 months should be able to beat Obama.

            Reading Jay Cost’s article on this really helped me.

            Here it is: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/2011/10/21/what_reid_can_teach_the_gop_about_2012_265866.html

          • gekster

            It’s good to have late night comedy.

          • jackdaniels11

            When Romney was the conservative alternative to Giuliani (pro-choice, pro-gay marriage, pro-Cuomo), McCain (McCain/Feingold, anti-ANWR, anti-Bush), and Huckabee (raised taxes, pardoned several murderers).

            Sure, Romney said some political things in 1994. But that was to unseat Ted Kennedy. Romney’s aggressive effort in 1994 forced Kennedy and his supporters to focus on Massachusetts while other Republicans took the House and Senate back from the Dems.

            Conservatives like Jim Demint and James Dobson supported Romney in 2008. Romney didn’t get more liberal between 2008 and 2012. Other candidates are trying to run to Romney’s right but they all have their own flaws.

            So I’ll submit on this: Romney is still the conservative nominee.

          • SoFiMil

            What utter selfishness, if this is what Romney was doing.

          • gekster

            In 2008, Romney was the most conservative in the race.
            This is 2012, and he is not the most conservative in this race.

            And from your own words,
            “Sure, Romney said some political (liberal) things in 1994. But that was to unseat Ted Kennedy.”

            Romney will say what ever he has to,
            to get elected.
            To tell the crowd he is talking to what he thinks they want to hear to
            get thier votes.
            That right there is standing on his principles,
            that is if your main principle is to get elected.

          • jackdaniels11

            That is what Herm Cain and Rick P. are doing all this year. They say things to get elected.

            Politicians put their finger in the wind and set out an agenda that is designed to appeal to the electorate that will be voting for or against them.

            It’s ugly. But not as ugly as the Chinese alternative.

            Find me a politician who hasn’t ever “evolved” on one position or another. Perry was a Democrat who endorsed the anti-AGW Gore in 1988. Cain has multiple positions on abortion, 9-9-9, and every other issue. Even Gingrich has been both for and against AGW and individual mandates.

            If you don’t like the game, don’t play.

            But don’t act like Mitt Romney is an evil liar and all of the other candidates are straight shooters. There ain’t a straight shooter in the bunch!

          • gekster

            AG was a Conservative Democrat at the time of Perrys support.

            from:
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Gore#Congress_and_first_presidential_run_.281976.E2.80.931993.29

            excerpt:
            During his time in Congress, Gore was considered a “moderate” (he referred to himself as a “raging moderate”)[46] opposing federal funding of abortion, voting in favor of a bill which supported a moment in silence in schools, and voting against a ban on interstate sales of guns.[47] His position as a moderate (and on policies related to that label) shifted later in life after he became Vice President and ran for president in 2000

            Gore didn’t turn loony until later.

          • thirstyboots

            on social issues (pro-abortion, but against federal funding of it… conservative democrats would be fully against Roe vs. Wade) and a liberal democrat on economic ones. He endorsed Mondale and Dukakis. He was similar to his dad, not to Zell Miller.

          • rightwingmom52

            As I’ve said time and again here and here, algore only pretended to be a conservative when it suited his political purposes. There is no doubt in my mind that he has always been a liberal at heart.

          • acat

            is the reason albums have Parental Advisory labels.

            Al Gore used to marinate in blue dye, being from social-conservative Tennessee, after all. It was only after he couldn’t win re-election and joined Team Clinton that his spots came out.

            Mew

          • acat

            from biting it to keep from badmouthing McCain.

            I have not held my tongue regarding Romney.

            The goal, Jack, is to nominate the most conservative candidate who can win. That sure as hell ain’t Romney.

            Mew

          • jackdaniels11

            I held my tongue once McCain got the nomination in 2008. I was vocally opposed to McCain before he got the nomination.

            This time around is way different than 2008. There is only one candidate who has a serious shot at getting nominated. You can attack him if you wish. But you’re not helping the conservative cause. You’re only helping BHO get his fondest wish: 4 years of unaccountability in the most powerful position in the world.

            There won’t be a military or a private sector left when he gets done with us. Fight the real enemy.

          • acat

            Get serious.

            He wins the nom, I’ll shut up. Until then, not so much.

            By the way, I am still curious about your thoughts re. Kjellander.

            Mew

        • retire05

          Since in both January and June, Perry is not in the race. Texans don’t tend to poll for people who are not running.

          • jackdaniels11

            unfounded opinions any day of the week.

            Your ability to predict outcomes is still unproven. With a poll, we have some idea what each candidate’s level of support is.

            You are not likely to see many Texas polls done since most people don’t expect Texas to be competitive next year. But when you assess dozens of polls for dozens of states, it starts to become clear that Romney polls better than Cain or Perry in nearly every state, especially the crucial ones like Ohio, Michigan, and Florida.

          • gekster

            Texas population, 2010 census. 25,145,561.

            Your first poll, 795 respondents. That’s one speaking for 31,630.
            Your second, 892 respondents. That’s one speaking for 18,260.

            Tell me, how do those single people know what the others are thinking.

            It is a far streatch to say that the individuals have a clue to what
            anyone else is thinking, let alone the group they allegedly represent.

          • jackdaniels11

            You can believe whatever you want about polling. You can doubt the results if you think that it is an inaccurate way to gauge public sentiment.

            But it remains the best way to tell what a large group of people believe short of actually asking every member of the group what s/he thinks.

            I think that there are a lot of people here, perhaps you are one of them, that just choose to ignore facts that don’t support their world-view. Obviously, I’d like to see larger sample sizes and likely voters as opposed to registered voters.

            But I’ve got to use the info that’s given.

            The important thing is that it is not Texas that matters. What matters is Ohio, Florida, and Michigan. North Carolina, Virginia, and Colorado are also very important.

            These are all states where Romney polls better than Cain or Perry. You can go by gut feelings, or tea leaves or whatever method you like. But the science of polling is pointing to Romney as the only candidate with a good chance of beating BHO.

          • gekster

            I did not say anything about being anti-polling.
            I just don’t put much stock into them this far out.
            At the same time before the 2008 election,
            Hillary had a double digit lead over Obama.
            McCain was behind two orher Republican candidates.
            Hoe’d that turn out.
            The polls were real acurate, weren’t they.
            But if you want to let the polls do your voting for you, that’s fine with me.
            Not even one primary yet, and you are tossing in the towel and going with Mitt because the polls say so.
            So what you are saying is that the polls say Mitt can beat Obama, so instead of going with consevative principles, you’ll go with who the polls tell me to go with.
            Get real, think for yourself.

          • jackdaniels11

            I look to polls now because I think that too many Republicans are going with their gut during the primaries and we end up with candidates like McCain, Dole, Meg Whitman, Carly Fiorina, etc.

            Now sometimes the ol’ gut is right. My gut told me that Bush was the strongest candidate in 2000 and I still think that my gut was right.

            But the polls said the same thing.

            I’m not going to belabor the point. I think that we’ve all said what we need to say and individuals can decide for themselves whether head-to-head polls or fav/unfav polls give them the most useful info.

          • acat

            Head-to-head will start to matter once the GOP candidate is chosen.

            Until then, it’s really not statistically interesting.

            At this point, in 2007, we were all looking at Hillary vs. McCain or Huckabee or Romney or Paul or Fred(!) or …

            At this point, the question shouldn’t be “Which of these men can beat Obama”, it should be “Which of these men has the vision for America that I most agree with” .

            Mew

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            The One presiding over Great depression II.

          • jackdaniels11

            But Jay Cost reminds us of what happened in Nevada and Delaware last year. In those races, the Tea Party got their candidate and two liberal democrats were returned to office.

            I’m worried that the Tea Party is willing to put BHO back in the White House for four more years as long as they get their candidate.

            BTW, I am for the Tea Party as long as we are talking about bread-and-butter issues like taxes and spending. I also happen to be pro-life and pro-family values. But the key to winning in 2012 is to nominate a candidate who will fix the economy and put Americans back to work, without raising taxes. This is not the year that we want to allow the other side to define us as a party that only represents “white, male Christians” (Howard Dean’s meme). We’ve got to be seen as the only party with any common sense.

            That will get us the White House and the Senate. And the best part is: it’s true!

          • gekster

            and ignore the hundreds who were voted into the Senate, House, Governorships, and state legislatures.
            And look at Romneys record.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitt_romney

            Note his time as Governor.
            He did raise taxes and fees, along with mandating health insurance in his state, because, as he says, 8% of the people didn’t have it.

            And if Romney wins the primary, he will get the White House.
            And at this stage, mbeckers dead white cat can beat Obama.
            But you can’t say with a straight face that Romney is a conservative.

          • jackdaniels11

            We have three conservatives in the top tier and they’re all equally conservative.

            We have no idea how Cain will govern. He’s never governed before so it will be a learning experience for all of us. We do know how Perry will govern. He will govern in a mostly conservative fashion. Will Perry raise taxes? No way. Will he put conservatives on the court? Sure.

            What about Romney? Will he raise taxes as president? No way. Will he put conservatives on the court? Absolutely. Will he try to backdoor gay marriage like BHO is doing now? No way. He fought against gay marriage as governor. Will he allow federal funding of human cloning (aka “embryonic stem cell research”)? No way.

            Both Perry and Romney have mixed records. Cain has no record. You’re taking a chance with any one of the three. I feel comfortable with Romney’s conservative record as governor. But you can vote for whomever you wish.

          • gekster

            from:
            http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.printable&pageId=351777

            a few excerpts:
            Assisted AIDS Action Committee’s distribution of ‘The Little Black Book ? Queer in the 21st Century (An X-Rated guide to homosexual sex practices and hook-up venues for young men).
            Eliminated STD testing before issuance of marriage licenses (new law signed by governor).
            Published a politically correct “Toolkit for Physicians” for treating men who have sex with men.
            Officially worked with homosexual hook-up web site, ManHunt.net.
            Collaborated with Department of Social Services on “Waltham House” foster home for “transgender youth.”
            Involved in disseminating GLBT propaganda in public schools.
            Issued illegally altered marriage licenses in May 2004 to allow for same-sex couples.
            Maintained a confused policy over altering birth certificates to allow for “same-sex” parents.

            and:
            “Romney also agreed in that NOM pledge to ‘appoint judges who will respect the original meaning of the Constitution.’ But when he had a chance as governor to call for the removal of activist judges who ruled for ‘gay marriage’, violating the Massachusetts constitution’s clear separation of powers, he did nothing,” Contrada said.

            There’s more, read the website.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            having presided over the end of Prohibition, fireside chats and lowered unemployment from 25 to 17%.. Obama is unpopular with unemployment having gotten worse and stagnated.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            because it will be used against him by Romney to justify nominating a moderate.

          • acat

            I don’t think Jack thinks much of Perry.

            Seems to be a Romneyphile.

            Cat, by the way, has been careful to say “The Dem nominee” as I do expect the other party to pull a bait-and-switch to try to salvage the Senate.

            We cannot nominate someone who Hillary could run to the left of.

            “I’m Hillary Clinton. In 1993, I chaired a commission to reform health care, and I can tell you that what we wanted to do would not have forced you to buy a policy, unlike the Romney plan that later became the Obama plan….”

            Mew

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            meow bacatcha

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            A few points from examining the ever-fascinating Gallup presidential approval comparison machine: http://goo.gl/Axw5 Obama’s job approval is a mere 4 points higher than LBJ’s when he announced he would not run for re-election. It is 4 points lower than Richard Nixon’s after the beginning of the Watergate hearings and the transcript release. Nixon remained more popular with Independents than Obama is today until the last week of the Watergate hearings. Obama took only 995 days to become as unpopular with Independents as George W. Bush did in 1,484 days. Ronald Reagan was as unpopular with Independents as Obama for exactly one Gallup poll, in January 1983 (followed by a dramatic surge as the economy rebounded throughout the year). Obama would kill for Gerald Ford’s numbers among Independents. And finally: only one president had worse numbers than Obama among Independents at the same time in their presidency. http://goo.gl/jbkZh

          • acat

            (’nuff said)

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            We should nominate an experienced Governor once again!

          • jackdaniels11

            “on-the-job” training.

            We need an experienced hand during these wild, unpredictable times.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            the fullness of time!

            Biblical allusion to Christmas…

          • acat

            (nothing further)

          • jackdaniels11

            But I don’t think that Goldwater was the most electable candidate in 1964. Goldwater fought against the Civil Rights Act, for crying out loud.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            Its Monday. I’m a busy man. Make my trips here worthwhile with more usual catlike efficiency!

            I am petting my little Huckie cat now. He efficiently gets food from me.

          • jackdaniels11

            Clinton has given an emphatic “no” to the suggestion that she might run for president.

            Paranoid people may come up with all kinds of theories as to what the dems may pull in 2012. There were rumors that the dems would nominate Hillary at a brokered convention in 2004, too. Those rumors turned out to be ridiculous.

            I’m dealing with the devil I know. I don’t have time to worry about the devil I don’t know. The devil I know is the specter of BHO getting a second chance to finish off the private sector. Forget about fixing the affirmative action problem. He’d magnify the problem if he got a second term. And he’d have no problem shutting down the government until he gets a tax increase. The only thing that kept him from doing so at the end of 2010 was the fear of an enraged electorate. He won’t have to fear anything if he gets re-elected. Mew.

    • sunshinek67

      polls had Giuliani and Thompson in the lead with McCain a very distant third. Your thread is useless at this point~

      • jackdaniels11

        Giuliani, Thompson, and McCain against other Republican candidates, not against a Democrat opponent.

        So I don’t see your point. Are you trying to compare apples to oranges?

        • sunshinek67

          The point is polls in October 2007 bore absolutely no predictive credibility whatsoever as to who eventually ended up with the nomination. I think it happened with Howard Dean as well, don’t have time to research that one though at this moment.

  • RealQuiet

    I think Romney’s numbers are due in part to his campaign’s wonderful organizational skills. They have been building the ground game and networks ever since he lost the nomination fight in 2008. Mitt is a very good debater and fundraiser. Here is something really to watch for. It is a strong possibility that if Cain keeps on fumbling like he has, Romney just might pull Iowa off. He’s starting to invest a little more of the future in Iowa by means of a subtle nature. If he pulls off Iowa, you may as well turn out the lights since New Hampshire is a given for Romney pretty much. He would be very difficult to beat from that point on because the money would really start flowing. I believe that Perry really must win Iowa. I believe his position would become very tenuous in South Carolina if his results are bad in those states. This week is absolutely huge for the Perry campaign.

    • tjms

      how I pray it doesn’t come down to that. If so I will skip the presidential voting for the first time in my adult life. I left the republican party years ago, held my nose and voted for McCain. But I will not vote for another candidate that I don’t think is a good alternativeI am sick and tired of the establishment or anyone else thinking we will be good little voters and get in line to vote with the choice they and the early states make. The last 3 years have almost destroyed our small business, but we live in a state with plenty of jobs and low cost of living so we will survive. Now I am ready for all the “then you have no right to complain, blah, blah, blah.”

  • onemovoter

    Seems that with the spotlight on Cain, they are really coming out with news stories. Fox News website has 2 articles, one on Cain and the other on Perry.

    Cain story was quite negative: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/10/22/cain-stumbling-under-glare-national-spotlight/

    Then a Perry story that was positive for a change: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/10/22/looking-for-boost-perry-to-unveil-flat-tax-plan-next-week/

    It actually quoted Sarah Palin giving good vibes on the flat tax Perry will be coming out with.

    There was also another Cain story posted on a Diary which is a REALLY interesting read by Steve Deace.

    Also check out how The Blaze news site is handling the abortion issue with Cain: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/pro-life-or-pro-choice-critics-say-herman-cains-abortion-stance-is-confusing/

    Cain will only have it tougher in the next few weeks while he gets the anal exam like Perry got. Of course we’ll never get this exam with Romney it seems.

    • bzip

      You now can add:

      Mike Huckabee to the growing list

      http://www.mediaite.com/tv/mike-huckabee-on-the-very-pro-choice-herman-cain-the-damage-has-been-done/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+mediaite%2FClHj+%28Mediaite%29

      • jackdaniels11

        And we still know nothing about Cain. No one’s been through his background yet. We have no idea how many children he’s fathered, whether or not he’s ever used drugs, whether or not he’s ever said something on tape to disparage any specific group.

        Cain is a choice you make only when you have no other options.

        Fortunately, we have other options.

    • porkandcheese

      He’s been playing possum, because he’s got the money to run an endurance campaign. Mitt likes being the weak establishment frontrunner.

  • lineholder

    30 day or 60 day or whatever it is negative campaign advertising stint is over!!!

    • lineholder

      /

  • snowshooze

    Insofar as what he is doing in his State to make the best of a bad situation, his actions are well thought out and reasonable.
    He is stuck with the illegals, the Federal Government refuses to deport or defend the border. After three years of residency, those illegals are the responsibility of Texas. ( I still haven’t figured the insanity of this out… if they are illegal criminals for three years.. they are residents, and your problem??? )
    Nobody has a better plan. It isn’t cool to just string them up from the nearest tree as some might suggest, and if you tried that in Texas, you would NEVER get elected because of the fact that nearly 30% of the population is Hispanic!!
    Perry has not articulated this well, but he has mentiond in passing that this problem was thrust upon him by the Federal Government.
    I believe that he shall expound upon the diabolical issue at length at some point.

    • avagreen

      about the horrible position both Perry and Texas have been put in.

      No matter what the choice we/he make, there will always be someone willing to criticize.
      The only way to stop this insanity is to make it common knowledge.

    • anxious4change

      Independents want border security, but most favor finding some way to fairly deal with the illegal immigrants already here. And it can’t hurt to have support from the hispanic population in this country in the general election.

      Perry is beginning to articulate the two issues in a more succinct manner. He makes his point about in-state tuition well when he says Texans chose to make them taxpayers rather than keep them dependent on taxpayers. But he needs to really make people understand that he’s done more on border security than any other candidate. He’s not against fences in urban areas where they can be patrolled, but they make no sense in the middle of a river in remote areas.

      There are a lot of highly skilled, well trained unemployed veterans who would love a job on the new ramped-up border security / drone patrol “boots on the ground” squad being proposed by Perry. Which would sound better to Americans — temporary jobs to build a fence in the middle of river that illegals will scale anyway, or permanent jobs for our unemployed veterans and other Americans to respond to drone reports of infiltration?

      • retire05

        There are two things that bother me the most about the attacks on Perry over in-state tuition for the children of illegals:

        first, Romney used as an example the most expensive state university in Texas, the University of Texas. What he left out was that a kid from another state only has to live in Texas 12 continous months, not three years, to be eligible for in-state tuition and has no Texas high school graduation requirement. So move to Texas, pay Texas sales taxes for one year by establishing residency (driver’s licence) and your kid is eligible for in-state tuition. Also, most children of illegals are not attending UT. They are going to small, community colleges as the cost is much, MUCH cheaper and then on to a four year university if that community college is a junior college.

        The second thing is that Romney did nothing to end illegal immigration in his own state. Have we forgotten where Obama’s aunt and uncle live? In Boston, where Obama’s aunt was living in public housing and getting a welfare check even after she had been ordered to be deported.

        Romney allowed the hiring of illegals for his lawn service. He tried to skate that issue last time by attacking Huckabee in the same manner he attacked Perry. It cost him Iowa. So Romney doubled down, and cut an ad attacking Huckabee over in-state tuition in Arkansas. It cost Romney Super Tuesday as McCain trounced him.

        The San Antonio [Texas] Examiner did an article on how the children of illegals are being recruited in high school to act as drug mules for the cartels. Those high risk kids have a better chance of not getting sucked up in the drug running business if they are on a track to attend college. Most people understand that being able to earn a good living legally is better than earning a living illegally, facing jail or deportation.

        The other day, Janet Napolitano testified to Congress that yes, there are ways for illegal immigrations to get work permits. And they are then given ITIN numbers to file income taxes. Now, if the feds are not going to deport these people, what option, legal option, does a border state governor have? Allow these kids to be recruited by the drug cartels, or hope that they go on to get a degree, apply for citizenship once they are 18, and become productive tax payers?

        • circlegranch

          Have you ever watched this aunt on YouTube? She is being interviewed and spews on and on about how America owes her anything she gets and that she has no guilt about being illegal.

          I don’t recall hearing Mitt bring this matter up during the ’08 race either. Seems it would have been a good attack on Obama, but oh yeah, then it would also have come back to bite him because this is going on in HIS state and he wouldn’t want anybody to think he’s a softie on immigration.

          Romney’s started a website that supposedly reveals all the dirt on Perry. Is there a similar site on Romney? Alot of we Redstaters could write a thing or two and help bring some truth to this ridiculous facade of a GOP primary.

          • retire05

            The website Romney now has purchased that domain name in 2007 to take on McCain. So now he is using it to attack Perry. There is an article in National Journal on how Romney is going after Perry, and not Cain, due to Perry’s ability to raise campaing funds. Charlie Cook, who has an excellent track record on picking elections, says it is going to be a Perry/Romney race to the top.

            My guess is Romney is about to get really, REALLY, dirty. He is going to pull out all the stops to try to destroy Perry. But that could backfire on him as it did when Romney went after Huckabee the same way.

            There is a reason the MSM is not going after Romney. The debate dialog will go something like this:

            Romney: I will end Obamacare and give a waiver to all 50 states.

            Obama: But Governor Romney, it was YOUR plan that we used to design Obamacare and your people who advised us how to do it. And you said that if your plan worked in Massachussets, it would work for the entire nation. Well, you have claimed it is working in Massachussets. All we did was take it national.

            END OF DEBATE AND END OF ROMNEY.

        • jackdaniels11

          was a group of evangelical Christians who decided that they wanted one of their own to carry Iowa, regardless of whether or not that individual had the money or the organization to win the nationwide primaries.

          What killed Romney on Super-Tuesday in 2008 was: (1) a gentleman’s agreement between Giuliani and McCain to endorse the other upon exiting the race, (2) McCain’s win in Florida which was facilitated by the turncoat liberal Charlie Crist, (3) last minute evangelical support of McCain despite James Dobson’s quiet support of Romney and Pat Robertson’s outright opposition to McCain, and a few other factors.

          Romney can’t be blamed for that. He was out-maneuvered by McCain who was more skilled at the game having lost it in 2000.

          • retire05

            What killed Romney in Iowa was Huckabee’s dogged perserverence in Iowa. Romney dumped massive amounts of money and resources into Iowa, but didn’t spend much time there himself because he thought he had it in the bag. On Oct. 29, 2007 the U of Iowa polls were:

            Romney 37.8%
            Huckabee 13.%
            Guiliani 10.6%
            Thompson 9.9% and
            McCain 4.6%

            McCain took Super Tuesday because when Huckabee lost, he threw his delegates to McCain. Romney quit two days later.

            You also give more credit to Pat Robertson and James Dobson than they deserve. But hey, I guess you have to find some excuse Romney was a loser in ’08, right?

    • circlegranch

      and P-12 education. A member of my family worked in the maternity unit of a large hospital and when illegal moms come in to deliver a baby, they usually have had no prenatal care, she has had none of the required immunizations, she is often anemic to the point of needing transfusion. Babies are low birth weight and require newborn intensive care. The costs of treating all that are enormous. While still in the hospital, the govt requires that a Spanish speaking staff member get mom and baby signed up for Medicaid & WIC. She is counseled on where to get housing assistance because now that she is the mother of a US citizen, her fortunes have just increased greatly. She is NOT counseled on where to sign up for English classes or where to get a job. The baby goes home w/ a ‘free’ car seat and beginning layette, lots of diapers and formula if the mother can’t provide it. Many of these mothers are mere children themselves; 14, 15, 16 years old. Hospitals are going broke providing this care and service and then get pennies on the dollar reimbursement from the govt. Schools also are burdened w/ free breakfast and lunch and teacher’s aides to help teach ESL (English as a Second Language). Without social security cards, the fathers of these families get day work and are paid cash. It’s a state’s problem because the fed’s refuse to touch it because of political consequences. Now we have a governor running for president and this entire fiasco is on the national stage. What happens? Pundits, network programmers and fellow candidates attack HIM for ‘doing too much’ or for ‘giving incentives’.

      In Texas and in countless other states (all 57 of them, in fact) honest business people have complained loud and clear to all levels of govt. about illegals standing on street corners waiting for day work. I know a 7-11 owner that was getting fairly close to retirement that just closed up because they stood on the sidewalk outside his business in the mornings hoping for construction and labor bosses to come in for coffee. It eventuallly ended up being a crowd there all day long. The city wouldn’t do anything about it because they were on the sidewalk. His customer base complained to him because some of the guys would ask for spare change as people were coming and going. Just like this Occupy Wall St. mess, the govt. at all levels shrinks and wimps out when it comes time to crack the whip, enforce laws and take on a tough politically charged issue. Mayors, police chiefs, sheriffs and governors are hog tied by the federal govt. SOME try to find some type of solution; others sit on the sidelines and attack them as we’ve clearly seen in this primary.

      There was a very large group of small business owners in Texas that came together and started talking to their state legislators about what could be done. Communities don’t feel safe when vagrant people wander around. We already know they are illegal but we can’t seem to do anything about it. By the time the children of these folks get to high school age, there is a very high incidence of gang involement and they too start roving the streets looking for a way to get some money in their pocket and as we know, its usually not a good way. Communities want something done and the fed’s sit up there in Washington and ignore us. Texans decided let’s get the motivated, bright kids that have great potential to contribute to society and instead of giving them govt. hand-outs, let’s give them a break on tuition and try to keep them in school so they can become legal and contribute. Education may be the only way to break this cycle of entitlement mentality.

      Too many people also think that these recipients of instate tuition in Texas and the host of other states that offer it, including really red states like Nebraska, get a ‘free’ education. They do not. They must find their own financing. Marco Rubio supports this program too.

      For those that found ‘heartless’ offensive, I happen to agree with the gov. and I don’t think it was a poor choice of words. What’s heartless is expecting taxpayers in Texas to just keep giving the handouts and never figuring out ways to improve the impossible situation the fed’s have plunged them into. It’s also small minded to continue to throw money at a problem and never do the hard work of sitting down with business leaders and trying to hammer out a better way.

      We have candidates in this race that are serving or did serve in the US Congress. Bachmann, Paul, Santorum, Gingrich. What can any of them put on the table as evidence they used their power and influence to help solve this situation? Nothing. They have nothing to show for their time as elected officials. Michelle Bachmann has never done anything to secure the MN border, but claims as president she’ll build a fence across every inch of the southern border. She never talks about what she’ll do with the ones already here, does she? She doesn’t explain how she’ll manuever the political land mines of trying to build on private property, across national parks and next to a river. Its rather amusing to hear people casting stones at someone that at least is trying to provide some relief to the people in his state that pay dearly for all the freebies that the fed’s require be handed out. Heartless, indeed.

  • anxious4change

    And then people wonder why Perry can’t articulate a very complex issue in a 30-second soundbyte.

    • anxious4change

      meant that to be a reply to circlegranch.

  • bzip

    Herman Cain: I support constitutional amendments banning abortion, gay marriage

    http://hotair.com/headlines/archives/2011/10/23/herman-cain-i-support-constitutional-amendments-banning-abortion-gay-marriage/

    http://blogs.cbn.com/thebrodyfile/archive/2011/10/22/herman-cain-exclusive-tells-brody-file-he-will-support-constitutional.aspx

    http://youtu.be/uy_Kp6uBHQw

    • lineholder

      At least within the context of Christians and social conservatives here at RS.
      They will be very glad to know that Cain has said he will support both DOMA and pro-life legislation if it reaches his desk (if he is elected President) and that he will attempt to use the bully pulpit to support these positions.

      • lineholder

        in the interview. I’m guessing that you presented this under the same type of heading that is being used at Hot Air? In the interview, all Cain says is exactly what I’ve stated above.

        This is why voters have to dig deeper and review the information that is being provided for themselves, because it’s all too easy for things to be misinterpreted.

      • bzip

        The problem with Cain’s statements in the Brody interview is:
        a) easily seen as political pandering (okay they all do it) and
        b) Presidents don’t sign constitutional amendments as Cain suggested in the interview:

        http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1011/Cain_would_autograph_life_amendment.html
        Cain would autograph life amendment

        Herman Cain tried to clean up the running confusion over his position on abortion last night, but in the meantime opened questions about his grasp of the Constitution.

        In an interview with David Brody last night, Cain said he’d sign a pro-life constitutional amendment if it crossed his desk as president.

        ?Yes. Yes I feel that strongly about it. If we can get the necessary support and it comes to my desk I?ll sign it,” he said. “That?s all I can do. I will sign it.?

        The only problem with that statement? Presidents don’t sign constitutional amendments — they’re passed in Congress and then need to be ratified by the states, and the president plays no formal role in the process.

        [.... it continues...]

  • intensity

    …think Haley Barbour, Sarah Palin, and eventually Newt Gingrich will support Perry??

    I really don’t see them having anything to do with Romney…

    • lineholder

      I wouldn’t count Gingrich out just yet. He has plenty of weaknesses and baggage, but he’s the one candidate above all others who can debate Obama one-on-one and blow this election away for Republicans.

      If we the people elect strong Conservative to back him up in Congress…I think this could have a significant impact in the minds of plenty of people.

      • Common_Cents

        I think that will be important in uniting the various Republicans/Conservative camps. Others seem to have some bad blood brewing between them cain/perry/romney. They all defer to Gingrich in debates. That’ll be important to have everyone on board in the general election.

        • intensity

          …but I don’t think he’ll be able to break away from pack and get the nomination.

          I don’t like Cain because he does’nt have any executive or foreign policy experience and this could prove lethal in a a general election.

          I don’t like Romney…because he’s Romney!!

          Good day to all….

          • Common_Cents

            He has done the most with the least amt of debate time. He’s prob had 1/4th of the face time at debates than romney/perry 7th grade name calling show. hehe.

            Palin was very complimentary of gingrich after last debate.

          • intensity

            …I’ve got this gut feeling that Palin is gonna end up endorsing Perry.

            I’m open to opinions.

            intensity

          • Common_Cents

            Prob Perry, but wouldnt be surprised if she did endorse Gingrich.

          • avagreen

            Puleeeze!

          • intensity

            …no doubt, Gingrich is a well-spoken conservative, but I don’t think he’ll make the final few.

            And I really think Palin is waiting for just the right time to endorse Perry.

            Peace

        • lineholder

          The man has plenty of negative things that he’s carrying around, but he’s extremely intelligent and he’s very articulate in being able to not only express his positions but also point out the fallacies in someone else’s positions…provided his priorities are in the right order. When he gets distracted off onto a tangent, he is just as susceptible to making errors in judgment as anyone else.

          Also, neither am I about to underestimate the kind of mood that the general electorate is in right now, especially on the Conservative end of the spectrum.. Conservatives are inclined to have a strong-willed streak of independence in their mindset and demeanor anyway, and it seems to be a bit higher than usual right now. That’s a wildcard in this particular election season, because it means they may be unpredictable.

          I think if Newt wants to win this, he’s going to have to earn the confidence of voters, somehow and someway, because it isn’t going to be handed to him on silver platter.

          • lineholder

            can succeed in this. I’ll try to explain what I’m looking at.

            For years, the left has been using the MSM to silence their opposition, including Republicans. Any time someone would try to stand up to the left, out would come the MSM and whhhiiiippppaaahhh….they put that person in their place. In the realm of politics, what politicians have learned is “you can’t say this…you can’t say this…you can’t say this…” etc. because they would be demonized to the hilt, this would ruin their political career, etc.

            In light of what happened in 1996, I would say that Gingrich understand this better than most. But this isn’t 1996 any more, and after the last three years of seeing the hard, cold reality of where leftist’s policies will lead this country, a majority of people don’t want it and they are looking for someone who will stand up to the left.

            So, let’s evaluate….Perry may not be in a position to do this very much because he’s currently engaged in public office in Texas. Romney isn’t going to do this because…well, because a lot of the policy decisions Romney has implemented actually lean left so it could backfire on Romney if he did this.

            Cain has been trying to do this in some ways. For example, he represents PRO-America to combat the left’s ANTI-America narrative. And his recent decision on opportunity zones…people living in these zones don’t just get a pass, Common. They have to make a choice between one of three things (1) eliminate minimum wage (2) school vouchers (3) right-to-work designation within the area Those are three of the left’s “sacred cows”.

            Pundits on the right may be looking at this purely from a political viewpoint and thinking to themselves “That was stupid”. But all us everyday, ordinary citizens out here who are sick to the gills of the left manipulating things all the time are more inclined to do a bit of fist-pumping and cheering him on. Doesn’t mean we think he’s perfect…we’re just glad to see someone taking it to the left, if you get my drift.

            Newt may be in a position to do this as well, and all things considered, coming from him, after being in politics as long as he has, it could score him some points. I just don’t know that he would even consider it. And I don’t know how much it might gain him to do it either.

            All of them have their strengths and weaknesses, and this is one case in particular where voters have to make up their own minds about whether the strengths overcome weaknesses.

        • cwilson

          …but it fits Newt as well. “I’d be afraid that if I voted for Newt, he’d leave America for a younger and prettier country”

          And that pretty much sums up the problem: just as Mark Sander’s career as a Republican politician is over, so too is Newt’s. Sure, IF he made it thru the primary, almost all Republicans and conservatives could/would support him in the General. But actually making it thru the primary…not so much.

          Then there are his bad decisions and (no pun intended) strange bedfellows on health care, AGW, and the like…

          The guy is GREAT in the debates, and would make Obummer look like the childish naif that he is, but…there’s more to campaigning — and more to governing — that the debates (Yes, I know, I sound like a Perry supporter — the difference is, I don’t claim that the debates mean /nothing/).

    • jackdaniels11

      I can’t see him backing Cain or Perry unless one of those two takes a major lead.

      I think that Haley Barbour will also back Romney.

      I don’t care who Sarah Palin backs. Romney would not offer her a cabinet position for her endorsement. No sane candidate would.

      She is too vilified by the media. She’s an awesome person. But the media has already had its way with her just like it did to Dan Quayle.

    • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

      period.

  • retire05

    As soon as he does, it will NOT be his personal life that will be attacked. It will be the over 80 ethics charges levied against him while he was Speaker of the House. That will sting.

    • sgtpanzer

      Newt has enough ideas that are more important than decades old subcomitte investigations

    • Finrod

      The Left, when Newt came to power, decided to attack him by filing countless baseless ethics charges. Kind of an early version of what they did to Palin in 2009. They didn’t care that every single one of their bogus charges were thrown out, in fact Newt didn’t consider it a threat because the charges were bogus. Then they started the line about how Newt had had more ethics charges filed against him than any other Speaker in Congressional history.

      And now you’re repeating that for them.

  • izoneguy

    • bzip

      I had heard Forbes was leaning towards endorsing Perry but in this clip Forbes comes right out and states he is endorsing Perry, what great news.

      I think this is going to a big win for Perry. Perry has the roll out on Tues. I have heard he will be doing the O’Rielly show and I am sure others will follow.

      Perry has already rolled out a terrific energy plan and now it sounds like he will be rolling out a great flat tax plan.

      For those who want to say Perry is only doing this because Caiun came out with a plan – you better read Perry’s book Fed Up;

      http://www.newsmax.com/InsideCover/US-Perry-Flat-Tax/2011/10/19/id/415096

      In his book, ?Fed Up!? he suggests the flat tax as a possible policy prescription but doesn?t elaborate.

      ?One option would be to totally scrap the current tax code in favor of a flat tax, and thereby make taxation much simpler, easier to follow and harder to manipulate,? Perry writes in his book. ?Another option would be to repeal the Sixteenth Amendment to the Constitution (which authorizes the taxation of income) altogether, and then pursue an alternative model of taxation such as a national sales tax or the Fair Tax.?

    • Scope

      The Parade Interviewer tried to trip him up on the birther issue, but Perry so craftily turned it against the interviewer, and it had me laughing at his responses.

      Apparently the interviewer told Perry that he had seen the Obama birth certificate. Perry replied- “I don’t know. Have I?”

      Saw EE on CNN just a little while ago, and he was also great with the line of questioning from the host. He said that Perry made that whole segment funny. EE said just move on already, which is exactly what Perry did when he said-

      “I don’t have any idea. It doesn’t matter. He’s the president of the US. He’s elected. It’s a distractive issue.”

      Of course the birther part of the interview is “the” story now, despite the rest of the interview being a great insight into Perry.

      • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

        Bravo!

      • izoneguy

        Was the fact that Marcus Luttrell had a
        part in the decision for Perry to run.

        I respect Marcus and his twin brother Morgan Luttrell
        very much.

        • Scope

          and a hero. I didn’t know that he and the Perry’s were that close. His book Lone Survivor is a must read. I also loved Perry’s story about the Winston Churchill bust, which Obama so disrespectfully sent back.

    • libdestroyer

      “It was a reaction to Herman Cain’s plan…”

      That’s an important admission. Cain showed leadership in being the first one with a real plan. Imperfect? Yes. But still a plan.

  • sunshinek67

    is the 75% anti-Romney vote. Why is it taking so long for conservatives to get behind one candidate? While I am Team Perry for the long haul, up and down polls, whatever, it’s flux that’s expected when you haven’t been vetted, I am ready to get behind one candidate, EE is right time is running short.

    It is a not a popular statement to make or even feel to encourage lower tier candidates to deeply consider their realistic chances of winning at this point when their campaign fundraising is struggling, staff exodus in some cases, nonexistent staff in key caucus states (think Giuliani) and consistent low poll numbers because McCain, himself, in October 2007 was being written off as a non-viable contender. I know stuff happens.

    But to shake down this Romney pseudo-front runner status and get the jumpstart on putting together a powerhouse campaign against a vulnerable incumbent, why are we just one year out from the general election and there is discord and disagreement over who said what, when and where? Michelle Bachmann needs to be added to EE’s assessment of the horserace. She is not going to win anything and is sucking the air out of the room, partnered with Romney, wasting invaluable air time that should be going to viable contenders. As EE put it, her campaign was declared dead when Mitt Romney softballed her in the economic debate. I would argue it was officially dead over her HPV delusional gaffe. No one wants a drama queen for President.

    That leaves Perry, Gingrich and Cain. For debating purposes, since the general consensus seems to be a major prerequisite, the stage would only be filled with a one Romney versus three conservative candidates, three who can draw a very deep line in the sand against Romney’s record. He would not fair well. He proved in Vegas that he does not hold up well having his record picked apart.

    • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

      I really don’t see this changing before the first caucuses and primaries. There are a lot of undecided voters like me still out there.

      • bzip

        To me there is one candidate that does stand out and is as close to a true conservative with governing experience you are going to find. The only think I say some what negative is his debating skills aren’t up to par but I also think that can improve and perhaps has been over played. That is Perry but I am biased. The only other candidate that comes close is Newt but unless Perry bows out that is where I am staying.

        Of course you have to get through all the nonsense, the misinformation, the lies that some try to put on Perry (and yes to a degree other candidates).

        • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

          Actually, there’s only 3 candidates I’d even consider in the Primary.

          Newt
          Perry
          Romney

          I’d be ok with any of these three in the General, but none of them jumps out over the other two.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            Can’t believe Perry’s self evident and singular brilliance, competence in all things Presidential hasn’t convinced the Nocturnal version of tornadoes and Chubby Checker…

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            His website is a joke, and he can’t put two coherent sentences together. He has done a lot of good things in Texas, so that’s definitely working for him in my evaluations.

            In any case, I’m pretty good at ignoring bots of any flavor.

          • sunshinek67

            These two videos can be found on youtube submitted by redstate poster Moe Lane. If articulation is your concern, I would strongly encourage you to check this out. Also, have you ever heard him on CSPAN talking to folks unscripted? He is good.

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            I don’t want a YouTube either. Show it to me in writing where I can evaluate it and compare it to the plans of others.

          • intensity

            ……………Steve Forbes just endorsed Rick Perry for President!!!!!

            Check it out on FOX.com.

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            -no–text–

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            He can’t put two coherent sentences together? Twister, come now, you are better than that.

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            I was referring to Perry, not Cain. Cain isn’t even on my list of qualified candidates that I would consider voting for in the Primary. I really don’t have anything to say about Cain.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            Do you hold yourself to such low standards? Should such as that qualify you for commentary worthy of reading? Come on man, get real. I know you are better than that.

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            There sure are a lot of thin-skinned people around here these days.

          • bzip

            If you want to talk about putting a coherent sentence together could we talk about how Cain keeps putting his foot in hisf his mouth.

            In all fairness don’t you think Cain has a problem keeping his own sentences correct.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            recounted Cain’s problems including the gaffes to which you refer. Fairness in evaluating these flawed creatures gets one out of the -bot category.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            put two coherent sentences together”? What does that say for your criteria for “qualified”? Now that is incoherent, but I do observe that you and I recognize that we aren’t qualified! smile

            Up your game NT, I’m a busy man and my time is valuable. I could usually count on your for wisdom but i recognize that this is primary season when Republicans eat themselves.

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            I find only three that meet that criteria. You’re certainly welcome to use your own criteria, but we each have to find a way to come to a decision on election day.

            As for your valuable time, no one is forcing you to read my comments. You’re more than welcome to pass right on by.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            try again, and welcome to the club of the thin-skinned that can’t recognize hyperbole humor as dry as the Sahara?…smile

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            I’m perfectly content evaluating the candidates I believe are qualified. Why does it bother you so that your favored candidate isn’t on that list?

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            I’m perfectly content evaluating the candidates that I believe are qualified. Why does it bother you so that your favored candidate isn’t on that list?

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            But I have always said that if two conservatives were otherwise equal on the issues (which is paramount), then I would favor the one with more executive experience.

            I answered the question re the subjective meaningless of the term “qualified” below.

            Twist some more in the night and maybe you’ll get it right…smile brother.

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            Government executive experience is a must for me, which is why I won’t consider candidates that don’t have it. Qualified has meaning to me, and that’s all I’m trying to convey.

            I’m not trying to convince you, I’m telling you how I will come to the decision on who I’ll hang a chad for on election day.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            understood. All things being near equal, I too prefer exec exp.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            that power very well. Basically Newt is a professor who has a nasty tendency to go off on liberal big govt tangents w/o notice.

            Perry has much govt exec exp.

            Cain at least has ceo biz exec exp wielded successfully and is a conservative.

            Mitt is not conservative.

          • izoneguy

            for Perry

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            While I agree that Newt has had his (lib) moments, and wasn’t always successful as SOTH, he did more to further the conservative cause in Congress than any single person I can think of since I became a voter.

            This really is my last comment, not only in this thread, but on the Primary and candidates in general. I’m taking a break for awhile because it’s become pointless. Anything said other than “rah rah” for a person’s favored candidate turns quickly into the ridiculous. I’m just going to avoid these diaries and discussions for now.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            before he became speaker and by virtue of his becoming same. He ended the 4+ decade run of Democrats as the majority party in the House. Nothing I said contradicts that, ie I revised nothing. Neither did I write a War & Peace-length bio of him..

            Thanks for the warning re this thread. It seems that Real Quiet’s blog got prolific in length thanks to the singular focus of so many here on the horse race and not issues. But I’m happy yo tarry on …smile

          • acat

            I have a hard time seeing Buddy Roemer or Ron Paul as “Qualified”.

            Certainly, neither meets the criteria of “The best conservative who can win the general”.

            Mew

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            himself when he promises not to be the Commander–in-Chief.

          • bzip

            We all define “qualified” in different ways, that is clear in this thread. Can you deny that at least one common way to define “qualified” is for a person who has prior experience and a record to look back at to see if they are “qualified”? (At least that would be a fairly normal way to look at and define “qualified” by any commonly used definition.

            Since we are looking for a “qualified” president some of us look to prior governing experience and the record behind it. As I see it, it would be very odd if anyone couldn’t at least see and agree that is one way of defining a “qualified” candidate.

            Perhaps there are other ways to define qualified and how it pertains to selecting a qualified candidate for the presidency . I am all ears on how you define “qualified”.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            in this context beyond natural born and over the age of 35. The issue is the best conservative that can beat Obama and by that criteria I would think that maybe even an Obama presiding over Great Depression II might win a squeaker over a Ron Paul that wouldn’t kill OBL.

          • Tbone

            9o9, the goose drank wine,
            the monkey chewed tobacco on the street car line…. LOL.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            out loud

    • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

      Its early

      • sunshinek67

        to the first vote~

        • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

          the first vote and two months after the first vote and most often the eventual nominee (unless an incumbent president running for re-election) has not garnered the votes for the nomination nor become the clear favorite.

  • prouddad

    In the next to last debate, when asked whom he would pick as his running mate from the other candidates, he picked Romney. Either he was kissing Romney’s behind for a VP nod or he was kissing the behinds of the Republican establishment. If he is going to sell out conservatives just to garner support for the nomination it turns my stomach.

    • libdestroyer

      I know we conservatives aren’t huge fans of Romney but Mitt does well in northern states. From a strategic perspective it would make a lot of sense. Don’t be surprised if Romney picked up Herman either. I think that’s a big reason behind their “kid gloves” approach to one another in the debates.

  • noprisoners49

    Here is the transcript – no mention of Romney as his VP:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/18/us/politics/western-republican-leadership-conference-wrlc-cnn-debate-at-the-venetian-resort-hotel-casino.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

    However, Mr. Cain has singled out Jim DeMint and Paul Ryan as potentials for his Cabinet:

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2011/10/13/cain_offers_possibilities_for_vp_paul_ryan_jim_demint.html

  • Common_Cents

    I have read some very strong reactions against Perry in IA because of his wanting to do away with ethanol subsidies. Iowans are saying he wants to keep tax credits in place for oil/gas production but cut ethanol support.

    Does Perry need to do well in IA?

    If I were a candidate I’d prob avoid this issue until after I get elected and whisper a few sweet nothings. Sorry IA. LOL.

    I have not seen one post on Perry and the ethanol issue in IA. Anyone with input here?

  • Michael_Handley

    I like Gov. Perry but I have concerns. I believe he is being overhandled or he just doen’t do well debating. Remember the important debates come after the primaries are over. If he doesn’t do well against Obama during those debates it’s over. The bast debater is Gingrich. The second best is Romney or Cain. If Perry wants the job he better man up, do his homework, and really show us who he is.
    I do think the VP pick will be more important this time around.

  • boonerdan

    I wouldn’t vote for Mitt Romney if he offered ME the VP position. I held my nose once in my adult electoral career and it still stings (aka, John McAmnesty). If McRomney is the best we have to offer, the Republic is in deeper trouble than I feared.

    I could live with any of the other GOP candidates. I think the most formidable challenger would be Gingrich, but he seems to be running against himself most of the time.

  • prouddad

    BAIER: Mr. Cain?

    CAIN: This is a game, and it is hypothetical. I’ll play the game.

    If — if Governor Romney would throw out his jobs growth plan and replace it with 999, he has a shot.

    If he does not, I would probably go with Speaker Gingrich, who I have the greatest admiration for, in all seriousness, because of his history and because of his depth of knowledge. I could go on because I have respect for everybody up here. But it’s a game.

  • libdestroyer

    Is like apples and oranges! ;)

    Yes both had limited POLITICAL experience prior to running for office…

    BUT

    They have very different LIFE experiences.

    Obama is Mr. Academia, Mr. Private School, Mr. Harvard Law.
    Cain is not.

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