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Nailing the Black Vote – Or not

I’m not all that convinced that the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People is a useful organization. As a matter of fact, I’ve come to think of the NAACP as a breeding ground for misguided militants who might as well join the New Black Panther Party. If you’re looking to amplify racial issues, and I think the NAACP is, you might as well join an effective militant group.

 

The NAACP, like labor unions, was once a good and necessary effort. During the civil rights movement of the 1960’s, there were wars for our black brothers and sisters to win. Those wars were essentially won when the Civil Rights Act of 1965 became law. Of course there are still inequities. There always will be. There is no way to guarantee any group of humans eternal equality.

 

As a woman, I try always to be mindful of the fact that we females were only set free from our masters – our fathers, brothers and husbands – less than a century ago long years after the Emancipation Proclamation was signed. Our suffrage came just a few decades before the voting rights were finally secured for our black sisters.

 

Today, women still struggle against the glass ceiling and, as I type this, are victims of the Obama Administration’s reckless and deadly economic policies which have left more women than men out of work and languishing in poverty. (I don’t understand why the NAACP doesn’t seem to catch on to the fact that black citizens of this nation are also disproportionally afflicted in terms of unemployment and poverty under this administration. Somehow poverty must be more palatable when it is visited upon you by one of similar pigmentation.)

 

I believe the NAACP has become little more than a social club for cranky black rebels who choose not to play by societal rules. You’d never see somebody like former Secretary of State and possible Vice Presidential pick Condoleezza Rice whining about her victimhood. Why? Because, even though the NAACP might call her an Aunt Jimima, she has worked diligently and succeeded within the system and, in so doing, has risen to dizzying career heights.

 

This week’s NAACP convention in Houston had the courtesy of affording Republican nominee Mitt Romney an opportunity to speak his piece which he did with dignity and integrity. He didn’t change the message or the language in which it was delivered.

 

For the most part Romney was treated politely. Yes. There were boos and I certainly didn’t see any Mitt Romney t-shirts in the crowd, but that’s all part of the deal when you’re a politician. There was also a standing ovation – something not enjoyed by the President of the United States primarily because the first black President blew off his core constituency in his arrogant assurance that he has the black vote nailed.

 

Maybe.  Maybe not.

 

Barack Obama and his campaign captains hope that the “you’re being mistreated” message of the NAACP will remain loud and clear at least until November.

 

The drums of victimhood which are constantly beaten by militant groups such as the NAACP and the Black Panthers serve their memberships not at all. They only afflict young, black citizens with a permanently attached chip on their shoulders which forever holds them back. But, of course, if we could ever get beyond the swamp which sucks black youth down and under, there might be real equality which would put people like NAAP president Benjamin Jealous out of work.

COMMENTS

  • Viet71

    n/t

    • http://vikimason.com runnamuck

      Thanks for the kind words. I’m new here so didn’t know how to include an image. Hopefully the words were descriptive enough.

      • CincoSolas_del_Bronx

        And the same could be asked of your simultaneous implication that a predominant defining characteristic of African-American females in, say, 1859, was indistinguishable from that of non-African-American females in, say, 1919?

        This little online community is quite open to accomodating a range of opinions in several aspects of life. At the same time, when someone bursts through the doors with guns blazing, it’s reasonable to attempt to ascertain–by asking for a clarification of terms–whether the newcomer is firing over the shoulder at her pursuers or is trying to decimate the party in the parlor.

        • Viet71

          As I read the diary, I don’t perceive any explicit or implicit eyepoke at at Biblical Christianity. What do I miss?

          I also think, FWIW, the diarist did not create a “simultaneous implication that a predominant defining characteristic of African-American females in, say, 1859, was indistinguishable from that of non-African-American females in, say, 1919.” My take is that the diarist’s connection between the Emancipation Proclamation and the 19th Amendment was merely to establish a passage of time, not to suggest similarity of circumstances between black females in 1859 and white suffragettes in 1919.

          • CincoSolas_del_Bronx

            Good to hear from you. I’m chuckling because I get alternately reminded by some here that I am overly verbose and then by others that I am overly allusive! Probably comes from growing up in the shadow of both Ethan “Surrender in the name of the Great Jehovah and the Continental Congress” Allen and Cal “You lose” Coolidge.

            The sticking point was runnamuck’s paragraph 3, specifically her “set free from our masters

          • Viet71

            no text

        • Melody Warbington (rwm52)

          and intended to come back and ask. I was hoping perhaps I inferred too much from runnamuck’s comments, but I guess my gut was right.

          Most people simply do not understand the Biblical principle of submission by which one is free.

          • westcoastpatriette

            will come back and explain herself more fully as any number of things could be read into her comments. :)

          • Tbone

            Please comment on the rather striking disproportionate percentage of women who voted for Clinton, Gore, Kerry and Obama.

          • westcoastpatriette

            but then, I’m one of the smart women.

          • Dave_A

            People are supposed to have the right to choose what they want, and to experience the consequences of those choices…

            The argument that women shouldn’t be able to vote, is essentially the argument that only ‘right-thinking’ people should be able to vote, which is an argument for a sham-republic propping up a Roman-style principate-imperium…

            You can’t have a real republic, with real freedom, if you don’t let all of the adult governed participate UNLESS they exclude themselves by their actions (Eg, inability to follow the law).

            You *MIGHT* (and it’s a really long stretch) have been able to justify a male-only vote if women were ‘seen and not heard’ Muslim style – kept at home to tend the house & raise kids…

            HOWEVER Western women are just as critical participants in the economy, just as much impacted by regulation, and just as much ‘governed’ by our elected officials as men. They DESERVE a voice in the government, and it’s a shame we kept them from having one for the time we did…

            Once we start wishing groups don’t have the vote because they ‘use it wrong’, it’s a very short step to turning the republic into a sham by excluding other groups – or to being excluded ourselves if the opposition gets enough power.

            P.S. I don’t know about you, but I like the way things have changed WRT women’s role in society… The bad-old-days of the 1700s European model (Where women only learned domestic skills & never really went anywhere a man didn’t take them) would make for some very boring dinner conversation…. It may have made some sense with limited life-expectancies & high infant mortality (leading to an imperative that both partners focus most of that expectancy on raising kids) and a relatively uneducated/untraveled male population… But it’s best left in the dustbin of history…..

          • aesthete

            “I would say you can’t have a conservative country WITHOUT ‘initial’ universal sufferage…”

            IF

            “People are supposed to have the right to choose what they want, and to experience the consequences of those choices

          • Dave_A

            IMHO, it should be ‘everyone governed, unless they have proven themselves unworthy by becoming a convict’…

            The whole consent-of-the-governed thing should imply that everyone under the government gets a 1-vote ‘say’….

            However, even under your standard, there’s no justification for excluding ‘all women’ from voting… Or for the position I was arguing against, that non-conservative ‘blocs’ shouldn’t be able to vote (he just singled out women ‘this time’)….

          • aesthete

            either race or gender-based restriction of franchise.

            I do think one should have to pass a basic civics test, be a net tax contributor in the polity you’re voting in, and not be currently working for government in order to vote.

          • Tbone

            Right down to local garden club.

          • Viet71

            Limiting suffrage is just what the Left wants to lodge against the Right.

            Besides, universal suffrage, coupled with safeguards like the First Amendment, guarantees the best possible outcome over time.

            Our country needs to bolster those safeguards. It does not need to limit suffrage.

            Voter ID laws? Absolutely. Just one of the safeguards.

          • demsaresatanic

            destroyer of empires known to man. European empires which had withstood centuries all fell within a few decades of granting universal suffrage. That is quite a feat, and certainly

          • Dave_A

            That fell because they over-extended themselves, or because they failed to adapt to a post-mercantilism future…

            Their fall paved the way for our rise… So I’m not going to agree with you that it was a bad thing…

          • demsaresatanic

            within a few within a few decades of granting universal suffrage is merely a coincidence.

            That is vaguely consistent with your theory that the way to stop illegal immigration is to let them come across an undefended border and then hope that they decide to leave voluntarily.

          • Dave_A

            After 1945, none of the European ‘empires’ had much empire left, nor any will or money with which to fight to keep it…

            Throw in the threat of the USSR (or in some cases, puppet-rule by the USSR, for those unfortunate enough to be east of the curtain) and they were all doomed regardless of who could vote.

            Sufferage had nothing to do with decolonization.

          • demsaresatanic

            England and France than WWII in terms of casualties and probably economic losses as well, not to mention the Napoleonic wars and the numerous wars in prior centuries. Why then were England and France able to recover and keep their empires intact after the prior wars and not WWII, what exactly had changed so dramatically besides universal suffrage? And how do you explain Spain and especially Portugal, which retained a large empire post WWII which promptly collapsed with the advent of their universal suffrage democracy, they stayed out of WWII as you will recall.

            You are grasping at straws in my opinion, warfare and corrupt aristocracies (a prior excuse of yours) are nothing new, what is without precedent is every single empire in the world collapsing at approximately the same time.

          • Dave_A

            They lost most of their American colonies while they were still a monarchy…

            The major pre-WWI ‘imperial’ powers were the UK, France, Belgium, and Germany/Austria (although not really a major colonial power at the time)….

            Spain’s empire had long since fell apart, not due to democracy of any kind (They were somewhat late to that party), but due to constant fighting with the British… Our war with Spain in the 1890s pretty much ‘picked the bones’ of their former empire…

            And of the countries listed above, all were pretty well wrecked by WWII… France & Belgium for having so much of the ground combat on their soil, Germany & the UK due to the air war…

            That’s why the US did so well industrially afterwards…

            And it also made foreign ‘empire’ unsustainable’ for the French, the British and the Belgians…. Add in the Soviets inspiring ‘wars of national liberation’ and it’s game over for the Europeans…

            You have weak correlation, but no causation.

            Further, the US has grown MORE powerful & developed MORE international influence since the 19th Amendment, not LESS.

            It’s irrelevant.

          • demsaresatanic

            Spain

          • Dave_A

            Thus comparing us to Europe…

            Fascist Spain having a few posessions in post-WWII Africa is nothing compared to the Spain that had globe-spanning colonies until their wars with the British (and finally, with us) cost them essentially all of it… Thus, the collapse of the Spanish Empire was in the late 1800s. Not in the late 40s.

            Further, your ‘correlation’ still presents no causation. WWII combined with the rise of the USSR as a global power seeking to spread Communism (thus creating it’s own quasi-colonial empire of satellite-states) are responsible for the final fall of colonialism.

            Women voting had nothing to do with it.

          • aesthete

            Austrian economist Friedrich von Hayek lived to see his relatively liberal homeland, the Austro-Hungarian monarchy, split into several democracies — all of which voted in either fascist or communist governments. The Bourbon monarchy in the 1700s was among the most enlightened in Europe, before it was overthrown by a rabble demanding bread and getting tyranny. Europe (especially Germany, England, and the Scandinavian states) as a whole voted itself out of prosperity and prestige, and into welfare states and piddling, peripheral meaninglessness. Germany and Italy were arguably the most democratic states out of all the belligerents in WWII during the interwar period, when one considers the disenfranchisement of blacks in the South and the voting system in the other allied countries. Japan was not terribly far off from either country before the Showa Incident. Democratic input is good and valuable at some level with appropriate guardrails and restraints, but it is at its heart a tool that should be used to help establish a system which preserves freedom, prosperity and social order, NOT an end unto itself.

          • aesthete

            regardless of gender, the right to vote is a bad call if one wants a conservative country.

          • http://vikimason.com runnamuck

            I’m of the opinion that people ought not to be able to have children until/unless they pass a parenting skills test. Driving a car is certainly no less dangerous than raising children. These days our babies are having babies without the first notion of how consequential parenting is for all the generations which follow.

            I’m also of the opinion that unless a person knows what the issues are, they ought not to vote. I see it happen all the time in my small Southern community. The crooked candidates round up the tenants in the local housing projects, buy them a six-pack of beer and shuttle them down to the polls with a “who to vote for” list in their hands. Then, of course, they promptly cancel out the votes of the ones like me who have an inkling about what’s at stake. And…as you said, aesthete, as a property holding, taxpaying citizen must pay for their folly.

            I guess that flies in the face of what America has become, but the Framers had it right. Oh. Except the part about women. :o )

          • fightnright

            Who exactly will be setting the standards and creating the limits?

            for example, I don’t know how I’ll feel if liberal regulators or leftist overlords might someday be the czars in charge of such bureaucracies, setting the standards for mental fitness, ‘right thinking’, proper inculcation of children, my attitude toward the state, checking up on my past pronouncements on the proper role of government, and so on.

            The leftists setting the agendas for the public schools are bad enough now.

          • http://vikimason.com runnamuck

            …I’m concerned about the idiots I see – for example – on the Watter’s World segments of Bill O’Reilly who don’t even know how many houses there are in Congress. A basic civics exam would be enough. And identification at the polls, no matter what Eric Holder says.

            As far as parenting…could we agree that we don’t teach our teenagers enough about how to be a grownup? Some basic stuff would help. More than please and thank you but less than “how to help with calculus homework.” You know. Something like – don’t leave babies locked in a car in August and don’t put your cigarettes out on their foreheads. I don’t mean to be flippant about this, but we give people a lot of liberty and privilege but little in the way of preparation for t he enormous responsibilities which go along with it.

          • fightnright

            never take for political parody what might be attributed to stupidity or ignorance.

            I’m sorry to say that I’ve read too many authentic news stories during the Obama administration that in former years I would have immediately suspected were satires from The Onion.

          • ladsmith

            A “Paulie”? (actually that’s first time I’ve heard that. I guess that shows you how green I am when it comes to politics) Ron Paul is crazy (but you have to give him credit for honesty). I don’t know how to describe Rand Paul. By the way I’m from Kentucky. I’m an independent thinker and voter. But the sane Republicans have really let the inmates take charge. It’s almost 3 a.m. Goodnight. Back to work after a nice weekend. Hope to talk to you later.

          • checkmate2012

            Perhaps you’ll be more direct and honest the next time.

          • Tbone

            “I don

          • fightnright

            has surely indicated that I’m aware that this is the direction in which the left is dangerously leading (i.e., “screw the Constitution”.)

            Obviously no system of government is perfect. Both tyranny or freedom can come to nations by gunpoint or through the voting process. Part of the genius of the Constitution includes the safeguards of civilian control of the military and the recognition of basic rights which the government cannot touch. Certainly I recall Dutch Justice Minister Piet Hein Donner stating that if two-thirds of the Dutch population should want to introduce the Sharia tomorrow, then the possibility should exist.

            But please note that the sentence quoted from my post above referred *solely* to the possibility of the future creation of Departments of Parenting Rights and Voter Eligibility. If you (or anyone in your own family) have already been affected by dictatorships where the free voices of those in ill-favored groups have been forever silenced, or been brutally denied the right to bear or keep their children, my condolences. My only exception to your response is that by suggesting such an eventuality is equivalent to what we in the US have *now*, you are greatly belittling the suffering of those in countries currently living under such oppression.

          • demsaresatanic

            “Oh. Except the part about women. “

          • littlehouse18

            if two people create a child before passing their test?

            This argument about a parenting skills test, license, etc. is one of the most frustrating things I’ve heard many fellow conservatives say, A certain path to some of the cruelest of tyrannies.

            Besides, you never really learn how to parent until you already have them.

          • http://vikimason.com runnamuck

            …and if you’re wishing, you might as well wish for PERFECTION, parents would be excellent role models and young men and women would be prepared for parenthood by experience.

            Of course, I’m not expecting ours to be a perfect world anytime soon so, if it bothers you, please feel free to disregard my comment.

          • Viet71

            1. What’s a conservative country?

            2. Who are the dummies?

            Not being flip. Having grown up with two older very Leftist sisters, I got a big dose of what I think I’m hearing, coming at me not from 0 degrees but from 180 degrees.

            I’ve seen here as well as elsewhere in life that one person’s sage is another’s moron.

            As for a conservative country, who defines that term? If you get to define it, will everyone else here subscribe to your definition? I know if I get to define the term, I’ll get called a moron or worse.

          • aesthete

            “Dummy” was a poor word choice, you are correct. “Ignorant” or “highly self-interested” would be better.

            For the most part, what is wrong with representative democracy with universal suffrage can be boiled down to one phrase: “rational ignorance”. People who are smart, hard-working, etc and who have an area of competence that they are very good in will nonetheless dedicate almost no time to educating themselves on politics because 1) the value of their vote is very small (and approaches zero in large polities; see Presidential elections), and 2) the cost of keeping oneself up to date on current legislation is quite high. On average, Congress passes ~800-1000 pages of legislation a month (and rising). Not even the best of us can keep up with that deluge. Realizing this, many people, especially those who discount the civic arguments in favor of voting, simply don’t bother to vote at all. Most of the rest of those who do vote are woefully uninformed — they don’t know what’s going on and make no effort to inform themselves. Politics (particularly in two-party systems like the US) then tend to group according to type; i.e., the Republican party “branding” is that of a pro-religious, pro-business, pro-South and Midwest (“flyover country”) and bourgeois party, and the Democrat party “branding” is that of a pro-secular, pro-public, proletariat party. Nevermind that most of these labels have little to do with how either party governs in practice; people will vote on branding because it is much easier to do than the nigh-impossible task of finding out what an unconstrained government is up to. People organize tribally (just go to a sports bar for a few examples), and this is fine so long as it’s voluntary. It’s not so great when it comes to organizing governing principles.

            This is complemented by a second problem in democracy: that self-interested voters will oftimes vote themselves various perks and goodies at the expense of others in society, and that they can do so while socializing the costs of their actions, especially onto people who don’t fit into their “tribe”. This is particularly the case when there is a large group of potential voters who, through their own decisions, have placed themselves in a position where they are less successful than they would like. While this is most often pointed out by conservatives in the context of progressive taxation, it can also be seen in other lines of demarcation, such as urban vs rural, religion, culture, “flyover country” versus coastals, various industries pitted against each other, and so on. As a result of an obviously undemocratic civil war, we in the US rightly decided that race as one of those dividing lines was a big no-no, but democracy is a system which effectively runs on the principle that “to the victor go the spoils”.

            All of this is coming to a head, with both parties seeking new votes primarily from the most ignorant group of voters — take attempts to turn out the “youth vote”; quite possibly our most un/misinformed group of potential voters — or from the existing pool of undecideds, the so-called “swing voter”. People are not getting dumber or more ignorant, but the ability to get votes from those who are marginally less ignorant is diminished as compared to voters who are very ignorant. Assuming that by “conservative” one broadly means a country which guarantees certain negative liberties to dispose of one’s property and destiny as one sees fit, and where equality of opportunity is a goal, there need to be certain guardrails placed on the franchise and on the actions of elected officials. The First Amendment wasn’t ratified as decoration; it was ratified so that self-interested parties would not be able to impose censorship on other parties, and so that voters would not through ignorance vote for elected officials who would do or allow such a thing without their notice.

          • Viet71

            Even if there was 100% voter participation, the voters would still be faced with choice-D and choice-R, neither of which may be right for the job and both of which are guaranteed to be insiders. Besides, the real power in D.C. lies with the money behind lobbyists.

            As for “conservative,” I can buy your concept. Want to see the details, of course.

            Agree with you wholeheartedly about the importance of the First Amendment. Leftists, though they’ll deny it, loathe the First Amendment. Funny thing. They love Roe v, Wade, which is constitutional poppycock, but hate the part of the Constitution that allows OWS pretty much free rein.

          • Tbone

            that infects the Ivy League lawyers that comprise the Congressional staffs that has screwed up this Country.

          • Viet71

            They understand hedge funds. And leveraged buy-outs, and other such thngs taught in Ivy law schools.

            Do they suck? My opinion, yes. Moreover, they’re largely ignorant of the law except as to the levers of power.

            I stick, however, to the proposition that corporate money runs D.C. After all, where do those Ivy League lawyer staffers go after they leave their congressional jobs?

          • Tbone

            Four years of undergrad BS, 3 years losing any sense of morality, ethics or discerning right from wrong and then straight to Washington where their elitism allows them to look down on everyone else.

            I hope they all burn in Hell.

          • aesthete

            of the size and power of the modern federal government. DC was birthed as a swampy wasteland that everyone hated and no one wanted to be in for very long. DC was a small and impoverished city in the US, relatively speaking, until shortly after the Civil War — when there was a successful push by the politically dominant Republicans to “do something” and expand the federal government. The real population explosion in DC occurred during the so-called “Progressive Era”, when a variety of government programs were created. Since then, DC has grown to be the 25th largest city in the US, with an insanely wealthy population and a growing economy — this, despite having no manufacturing or economic industry going on.

            The size of government affects how much lobbying goes on. Microsoft and several other non-political corps have tried avoiding politics and DC altogether, only to get sucked in because their competitors, or some third-party interest, sinks their business out of spite or self-interest. If we really wanted to curtail lobbying in DC, we could do worse than instituting an Economic Bill of Rights which restored regulatory power back to the states.

          • Tbone

            However, statistically, single women are evidently very close to being as either poorly informed or poorly equipped to vote as young people.

          • Dave_A

            So that’s no surprise…

            ** ‘Young’ for voting purposes = Under 30.

          • Tbone

            NT

          • ladsmith

            I’ve been checking in on RedState for about a year. It is definitely one my top 5 sources of humor. You people (yes, you people) are crazy funny (emphasis on crazy). Keep up the good work!

            Ecclesiastes 7:7

          • checkmate2012

            amusing to you as well? We’re all ears on your solutions to the economic woes at hand or is it all just doing fine like O said?

          • Dave_A

            When property-ownership was required to vote, land was CHEAP and everyone had to own some to live, because most of this country owned and FARMED land.

            We’re talking about the days of the Northwest Territory Act, and so on… Land was cheap, and almost every productive citizen owned some… Today’s ‘urban apartment dweller’, New York style, was a rarity….

            In today’s economy, there is NO connection between being a productive citizen and owning property… You can be productive and rent an expensive apartment – or you can be productive and pay a mortgage… Your choice…

            And with so many tax exemptions and deductions, that any middle-class citizen who’s got a house, spouse and 2 or more kids can deduct themselves right off the tax rolls… Paying taxes isn’t a reliable indicator either…

            The closest thing you can get to the old property-rule is ‘No-one on public assistance, other than VA Disability, may vote’…

            Good luck getting that past the Supreme Court, though… For obvious reasons….

          • acat

            not any time soon.

            I still view “must file a 1040″ as a good starting point.

            Mew

          • Tbone

            Is my starting point.

          • Dave_A

            You ideal would be a dictatorship with some trappings of representation, not a real republic…

            It would also very easily turn into nightmare-world, if enough of your demographics switched ideologies, to turn ‘must think like me’ into ‘must think like us – not like you’….

          • aesthete

            like Singapore and Hong Kong?

            Because I’d rather live in one of those polities than the frakked up “democracies” that have emerged in Iraq, Egypt, Libya, or sub-Saharan Africa.

          • Dave_A

            Regardless of the 2-systems PR, it’s still ruled by the PRC…

            And where did I use the word ‘democracy’?

            As for the Middle East and Africa (or any other 3rd world locale), that’s hardly a valid comparison to a properly functioning ‘universal suffrage unless convicted’ Republic….

            Are you seriously advocating for T-bone’s ‘only those who think like me may vote’ position?

          • Tbone

            who sell their vote to the highest bidder to make their living, then you are really a total fool.

          • JSobieski

            people voting.

            People used to ask the question of if Detroit, why not Beirut? Now maybe they ask it the other way, if not Beirut, why Detroit? Is Detroit more capable of self-government via universal sufferage than Beirut or Cairo?

            True, 84% of Detroit doesn’t support the death penalty if someone changes religion, but I’ll bet if asked properly,. we could get some really embarassing poll results on certain questions.

            I don’t think any voting restrictions would pass legal muster, but in terms of policy—if people can’t answer basic questions about what is going on, the shouldn’t vote.

            For example, how many Obama voters in 2008 didn’t know that the D’s controlled both houses of Congress in from2007-2008? Of course the MSM (including Fox News) should shoulder much of the blame, but that doesn’t mean idiots voting is a good idea.

          • aesthete

            There are certain values and beliefs which should be a prerequisite when it comes to people making decisions about my money and my freedom. People who want me subjugated because of *who I am*, and not what I do? Folks who want to push me down using force of arms to prop themselves up, for no other reason than naked avarice? Individuals who, for their own reasons, are completely uninformed about basic facts about the Republic and how it operates? Should have no say in the direction of our government, because what legitimate input they have to offer is vastly outweighed by the harm that they inflict on society through the ballot box. Since there is no good system that could select for these values effectively, one could make the argument that universal suffrage is a good “second best” solution. (I don’t believe that, but there is a case to be made to that effect.) This is by no means a slam-dunk case, however — certainly not to the extent that we can ignore any guardrails in our mad rush to democracy.

            The reason that I think it’s an important argument is not because I realistically think that it’s probable or possible to start talking about franchise limitation as a viable policy. It is because so many on both right and left 1) argue that we rid ourselves of various undemocratic institutions (the Supreme Court and the Fed come to mind) which operate much better than what democracy can come up with, 2) justify any choice made at the ballot box, no matter how odious, with argumentum ad populum, not considering for a moment what costs are imposed on the minority or even on an ignorant majority, and 3) insist on democracy abroad where it is foolish and harmful to the extreme. Not to beat an already stretched out drum, but Iraq, Libya and Egypt are not ready for democracy and mindless democracy promotion is wasting our money without any tangible results for either the US or human rights in that arena.

          • acat

            Your position, which I re-state as “universal sufferage is a good thing”, is in error.

            The end of every democracy comes when the people start voting themselves bread and circuses … every one of our rotting urban cores voted themselves there, Dave_A… and now are voting to import my bread and circus tickets because they can’t afford their own.

            Votes by people who don’t know who the current officeholder is should be disqualified. People who don’t pay taxes shouldn’t get a vote in how tax dollars are spent.

            Mew

          • Dave_A

            My position is ‘universal suffereage in terms of race/religeon/gender is a good thing’.

            I don’t argue for felons being able to vote.

            I don’t argue that every institution of the Republic should be beholden to the voters (see: Federal Reserve) – we are NOT a democracy, nor should we become one.

            However, I do believe that excluding broad classes of people because of how they *think* is inappropriate.

            Excluding people because of what they DO? By all means – all felons (includes anyone with a DD** from the military), noncitizens & ex-citizens… Persons deemed not fit to manage their own affairs/institutionalized….

            The problem I have, is with the ‘Well, women vote Democrat too much, so let’s take their vote’ line that T-bone uses….

            Why?

            Because if we take the vote from groups of people for ‘thinking liberal’ than all it takes is a bad election season, and the liberals could be taking the vote from US.

            In short, my problem with less-than-universal suffrage for anyone who hasn’t DONE SOMETHING to deserve losing the vote (such as commit a crime & get convicted) is that it’s arbitrary & could easily come back to bite us…

            Even the income-tax-standard ignores the other taxes everyone pays beyond income (and what if you file but pay nothing?)…

            The ONE ‘new’ limit that I can get on board with is ‘if you take public assistance other than VA disability, no voting until you’re off the dole’ – because it addresses the ‘public trough’ issue, and does so in an objective manner that can’t be turned against productive citizens….

          • acat

            Voting may be called a right, but it’s more truly a responsibility…

            There’s a reason why the voting age used to be much higher – many young people weren’t (and still aren’t!) mature enough to make wise choices. Do you think we should let 16-year-olds vote? 12-year-olds?

            Voting should require a positive action on the part of the citizen.
            The founders got this – voters must be property-owners – they must be committed to living in the community, and improving it.

            In short, Tbone’s view is more correct .. yours is incorrect .. although yours is the majority view at this time.

            Mew

          • Dave_A

            So no, it shouldn’t go any younger…

            In fact, I’d be fine with moving legal adulthood in general to 22 (as we are rapidly approaching a society where college is what HS used to be when we made 18 what 18 is today), unless currently enlisted in the military…

            Further, you haven’t made an argument to justify any of T-bone’s positions, as his view isn’t that you should have to know something or do something to vote…

            His view is that you should have to BE SOMETHING (male) to vote.

            I have a problem with THAT, specifically, because it’s arbitrary & unfounded in any justification other than ‘those people don’t think like me’.

          • acat

            “Must vote like Tbone”.

            Clearly, this indicates a shared ideology or shared values, not plumbing, melanin levels, or epicanthic folds …

            In fact, Tbone doubled down on this, observing that “statistically, [female voters] are bad for the Republic” .. clearly because they don’t “vote like Tbone”.

            I like your idea of raising the voting age to 22 but allowing those in the service to vote at 18 .. I would also allow those in the service to rent a car and buy a beer.

            I’ve never heard, though, the “old enough to serve, should be old enough to buy” argument made … does that mean voting is less important than a cold beer?

            I notice, by the way, that you’re still asserting a right, rather than recognizing a responsibility. Try it the other way, it makes a lot more sense.

            Mew

          • Dave_A

            I tend to notice them – a hold over from my ‘old days’ of posting on AR15.com

          • Dave_A

            But I see where you’re coming from…

            BHO let a whole bunch of genies out of a whole bunch of bottles with this rule-by-EO BS… I hope we can put them all back in, but what you say is indeed possible…

            To think, I remember posting on ARF about how you can’t rule the country by EO, and EOs are only usable to alter how existing law is implemented… After all, that’s what the law provides for…

            Of course, back then Bush was still President & the idea that a President would just blow off the law & do whatever he wanted ‘because you can’t stop me’….

            It’s almost like we’re back to the bad old days of Andrew Jackson….

          • checkmate2012

            I already listed many of O’s illegal doings in another post so won’t go there now but he is usurping the Constitution weekly. It will take a miracle to unwind all the damage he’s done since I don’t think anyone knows the full scope.

            It’s not just him but he is the root cause of rapid errosion, but the Left has been slowly eroding our freedoms for decades and the Right hasn’t stopped them much, sadly.

          • http://vikimason.com runnamuck

            I wrote a piece yesterday and posted it here on BO’s not so subtle attempts at scraping the bottom of the voting barrel for his own re-election. (Happiness Park – How an Obama Dictatorship Begins)

            In the beginning, I couldn’t believe my own eyes. This kind of government by Imperial Proclamation has never been a reality in America until this administration. Now I’m seeing black helicopters everywhere I look. It isn’t like me, and I feel strange about it, but consider the less obvious power grabs – the order giving the Feds the right to confiscate a farmer’s crops and, more recently, the right to take over the communications networks if the administration deems it necessary, it’s beginning to look bleak. These sinister moves have all been made by little executive orders totally circumventing the lawful system.

            It scares the spit right out of me.

          • checkmate2012

            term. We’re doomed.

            Two quibbles, Woodrow Wilson and FDR were on O’s wavelengths but the folks were in bad times so bought the “gov’t will help us” as they had no one left to turn to. It’s repeating itself in a 24 hour news cycle now and yet so many sheeple don’t see th truth. Truely scary times we are in with this prez. We must pray.

          • aesthete

            To me, voting should be a privilege — instead of asking, “what has that person done to deserve having the right to vote taken away”, the formulation should be, “should that person vote, and why?” Voting is not a right, it is a process by which one determines the course of our government (at least to some extent). People who have power over me in other contexts have some means by which they are to be held accountable if they wrong me — why should we not expect the same in the case of voting?

            Again, I am not arguing for limiting the franchise per se (in most ways the damage is already done), but I would like to see less of the same flawed thinking encumbering steps we take in the future. Certainly, I would like to see less mindless democracy worship of the sort which places mere voting on a higher order than right to life, liberty and property. There are many areas of public and private life which should be off-limits to voters and their elected representatives. There are some voters who cannot exercise the franchise responsibly at all, and who should not be determining the course of our government.

          • acat

            A Cain-worthy slogan – “no 1040, no ballot!” makes a good starting point.

            To Dave_A’s note above, this is actually *less* restrictive than his “nobody on the dole votes” … the EITC allows people to receive more back in a tax “refund” (actually, it’s welfare) than they have had withheld… thus they are enticed to file a 1040.

            Simply have the IRS send out, to the address *on the 1040*, a “polling place access ticket”. It should have the voter’s name and address, a unique QR code, be somewhat difficult to fake.. and the penalty for faking should be *severe*.

            Each voter must present his or her ticket to get into their polling place, or to receive an absentee ballot. Enforcement is simple, too – all used tickets are to be sent back to the IRS, who will scan the QR codes for uniqueness and, on finding a duplicate ….

            Mew

          • checkmate2012

            it won’t ever happen. But, back in my Mom’s day, she had to quote the Preamble to the United States Constitution before she was allowed to register to vote.

            Perhaps we just need a basic test on the Constitution before someone can register to vote. Nothing to onerous but someone should at least know how many branches of gov’t and their functions! Do they even know we have a Constitiution??

            Your idea is better but I don’t see it happening ever. But we have to take a drivers test and pass a drug test and pass a final…all kinds of tests to get something. What do you think?

          • acat

            and an indication that we’re finally headed in the right direction.

            Mew

          • checkmate2012

            for under this crooked admin.

          • adair

            interesting idea as being a “Poll Tax.”

            One more justification for the NAACP to hang on.

            Getting rid of Motor Voter and Provisional Ballots would help; but of course, once established these Democrat frauds tend to go on and on.

          • http://vikimason.com runnamuck

            …and are taxpayers, they have a vested interest in the process and, we can hope, are interested in making sound fiscal choices.

          • Tbone

            I said that statistically they were screwing up the country by voting for Democrats.

            As for taking the vote from people because they have “Done Something”. Yes. I say 69,000,000+ of them voted for the crooked and unqualified Obama. That’s doing enough that none of them should ever get to vote again.

          • ladsmith

            Of all the sites that fall in the political genre, this is the first I’ve ever posted. It’s just like I said. This site is simply hilarious (when it’s not pitiful). I’v never seen so many people who claim to love the Constitution, exhibit so much consternation when patriotic Americans work to achieve the fulfillment of that document.

          • http://vikimason.com runnamuck

            But…when you consider that a woman’s wealth or property was not hers to manage and could be used in whatever way her superior male wanted I believe it was an awful system.. Women are smart enough to do anything a man can do. That has nothing to do God’s plan for men and women, in my book.

            Since my 3rd great grandmother was a Wyoming pioneer and among the first women there to cast a ballot, I take my right to take part in the political process very seriously. If anybody tried to infringe upon that right….for example, by allowing votes to be cast by illegal aliens or dead folks and, thereby, disenfranchising me…I get pretty cranky.

          • Melody Warbington (rwm52)

            Considering the widespread misunderstanding of submission within the principles of Christianity, it can be easy to misinterpret one’s comments.

            I’ve been know to get cranky from time to time, often for the same reasons as you. Glad we’re on the same side.

          • aesthete

            women were allowed to dispose of their properties and affairs independently. The primary governmental barriers at that time were in inheritance law and labor regulations, not management of property. By custom, many women allowed their affairs to be managed by “superior males”, i.e. a husband or father. It was not, however, terribly uncommon to see women who managed their own demesnes and that of their husbands in certain parts of the US.

          • demsaresatanic

            do aren’t smart at all, it is leftist pc nonsense unworthy of a thinking person.

          • http://vikimason.com runnamuck

            ..men are physically and mentally situated differently from women. They have more upper body strength and, perhaps, an ability to see things differently than we do. They might also be more prone to violence as a problem solving methodology.

            That said, I believe that if the proof is in the pudding, women can accomplish the same goals. They may have to use other methods – employ men, for example – but the end results are the same.

            Look at Margaret Thatcher. Do you dispute her leadership excellence?

          • demsaresatanic
          • http://vikimason.com runnamuck

            We don’t want to go THERE do we?

            Lol.

          • demsaresatanic

            the issue instead of simply complaining about it. E.O. Wilson would be a good place to start.

          • http://vikimason.com runnamuck

            Both are necessary in order to make Scampi the best it can be.

            I concede.

        • bk

          It must have been around 2003 – I’ll use that for the sake of argument. I happened to be flipping by C-SPAN and they had the opening of the NAACP Convention. One of the first speakers said something like: “We are already looking forward to the convention in six years marking the 100th anniversary of our founding!”

          I couldn’t help but think that if they had their priorities straight, he’d have said something more like: “It is my fervent hope that before we mark the 100th anniversary of our founding in six years, we find there is no longer a need for our organization!”

          Or maybe it’s just me who thinks that way. Is their goal to strive for equality, or is to be a perpetual victim?

          • http://vikimason.com runnamuck

            As altruistic organizations begin, they have excellent motives and clear visions.Then, when the organization begins to flourish, they find that they’ve got to invent problems to justify their continued existence…by that time they have presidents and staff members and legal teams.

            It’s as true for “environmental” organizations as it is for labor unions and, in this case, the NAACP.

            In a perfect world, they would all work themselves out of jobs. Not likely, IMHO.

          • 6eorge Jetson

            They know a cash cow when they see it.

        • http://vikimason.com runnamuck

          I did not mean to take a swing at Christianity at all. I’ll be interested to know what you’re referring to here.

          As far as the aspect of all females being subjugated by male “overloards” no matter what color they happen(ed) to be I am saying that white women and black women have shared that particular slavery across the centuries when it comes to fathers, husbands and brothers. Even after black women were freed from bondage by the Emancipation Proclamation, they were subject to the whims of the men they were affiliated with.

          I hope that clears it up for you cinco. If not, lets discuss is further.

          • Tbone

            Don’t you have the laundry to do? LOL

          • http://vikimason.com runnamuck

            no other message.

          • CincoSolas_del_Bronx

            Which will save me, at least, time in deciding whether to consider anything else you may write.

        • http://vikimason.com runnamuck

          You are asking about being submissive!

          I’m a Christian woman and I recognize and celebrate the fact that my husband is the Chairman of the Board in our family. I don’t think being submissive equals being without opinion or sense enough to contribute to discussions around the goals and aspirations of our family. Fortunately for me, my husband understands that as the head of the family he has a spiritual obligation to lead me down the right path. And…fortunately for him, he doesn’t imagine that my gender makes me a esser human than he is.

          • westcoastpatriette

            that you have a husband who understands his spiritual obligation to lead you down the right path. For too many women nowadays, they find themselves stuck trying to figure out how to follow a parked car. :)

          • aesthete

            that all Christians are told to submit to one another and to love one another in a Christ-like fashion. An ideal relationship between two Christians should be one in which both parties look for the needs of the other and love the other, regardless of gender.

          • westcoastpatriette

            from time to time, there are areas where we can find 100% agreement!

  • 6eorge Jetson

    At his peak popularity (before he was ever responsible for results and not just speeches), Obama beat McCain by 52.9% to 45.7% ≈ 7.2% of the electorate.

    Blacks voted 95% for Obama. Further, turning out in record numbers, the share of blacks increased to a record 12.0% of the electorate.

    A reversion to the mean of an ~11 percent share would cost Obama (12.1% 2008 share – 11% 2012 share) * (95% of blacks voting for Obama – ~50% of the general electorate voting for Obama) ≈ 0.5% .

    In those stating an opinion in a recent Quinnipac poll, Obama leads Romney 92% to 2% versus Obama’s 95% to 4% clobbering of McCain, a mere 1% pickup for Romney. Note that 6% are undecided, which I suspect to mean “Romney, but I haven’t been able to say that aloud yet, either to someone else or to myself.”
    But let’s call this a wash.


    2. If the election for President were being held today, and the candidates were Barack Obama the Democrat and Mitt Romney the Republican, for whom would you vote?
                         Tot    Rep    Dem    Ind    Men    Wom    Wht    Blk    Hsp
     
    Obama                46%     5%    89%    41%    40%    51%    38%    92%    59%
    Romney               43     89      4     43     47     39     51      2     30
    SMONE ELSE(VOL)       3      1      2      5      4      2      3      –      4
    WLDN’T VOTE(VOL)      2      –      1      3      3      1      2      1      1
    DK/NA                 6      5      4      7      6      6      6      6      6
     
                         WHITE……………………………………….
                         COLLEGE DEG                               BornAgnEv   Mltry
                         Yes    No     Prot   Cath   Men    Wom    Yes    No   HsHld
     
    Obama                46%    33%    27%    38%    33%    42%    18%    40%    39%
    Romney               47     53     63     53     54     48     72     50     49
    SMONE ELSE(VOL)       2      4      2      2      4      2      3      3      4
    WLDN’T VOTE(VOL)      1      2      1      2      2      1      2      1      3
    DK/NA                 5      7      6      5      6      6      6      6      5
     
                         COLLEGE DEG   ANNUAL HOUSEHOLD INCOME…  AGE IN YRS…….
                         Yes    No     100K  18-34  35-54  55+
     
    Obama                51%    43%    51%    47%    42%    44%    49%    44%    45%
    Romney               41     44     36     41     48     47     39     43     46
    SMONE ELSE(VOL)       2      4      2      5      4      3      5      4      2
    WLDN’T VOTE(VOL)      1      2      3      2      1      2      2      2      2
    DK/NA                 5      7      8      5      6      4      5      7      5
     
                         MARRIED……….    SINGLE………..
                         Tot    Men    Wom    Tot    Men    Wom
                                                               
    Obama                38%    35%    42%    54%    47%    60%
    Romney               51     54     49     34     38     31 
    SMONE ELSE(VOL)       3      3      2      4      6      2 
    WLDN’T VOTE(VOL)      2      2      1      2      3      1 
    DK/NA                 6      6      7      6      5      6 
     
    

    And those evil Jooooooooooos? While just 2.2% of the US population, they represent 2.5% – 3.0% of the voting electorate. The Jooooooooooos voted 78% for Obama in 2008, but a back-of-the-envelope estimate based on 2010 elections by Rich Baehr of Pajamas Media projected a 60/40 Obama/Republican share, resulting in a 2 * (78% in 2008 – 60% in 2012) * 2.5% of the electorate ≈ 1.0% loss for Obama.

    And the Latiños? Latiños favored Obama by 36% (67% vs 31%) in 2008 but favor Obama by only 29% (59% vs 30%) in the Quinnipac poll, a pickup of 8% for Romney. Applied to the 7.5% share of the Hispanic electorate, that represents a 2 * 8% loss * 7.5% of the electorate ≈ 1.0% loss for Obama.

    So among just 11% (blacks) + 2.5% (Jooooooooooos) + 7.5% (Latiños) ≈ 21% of the electorate, Obama already loses 0.5% + 1.0% + 1.0% ≈ 2.5% of his 7.2% peak advantage. (Down to 4.7%)

    Thus Romney only needs to flip ((4.7% of the remaining 2008 advantage) / 2) / (79% remainder electorate share) ≈ 3.0% of the electorate from its peak 2008 ethusiasm for Obama.

    But before we go popping the Champagne Cork of DOOM, we should take care to avoid overlooking Obama’s secret demographic. Food stamp rolls swelled from 14.50 MM households / 31.98 MM people in Jan 2009 to 22.13 MM households / 46.19 people in April 2012.

    Going with 1.5 voters per household in the increase of (22.13 – 14.50) of the (100% total recipients – 22% black – 10% hispanic) results in 8 MM new net dependents not covered in the groups above.

    Participants

    According to the United States Department of Agriculture (based on a study of data gathered in Fiscal Year 2010), statistics for the food stamp program are as follows:[13]

    • 49% of all participants are children (17 or younger), and 49% of them live in single-parent households.
    • 15% of all participants are elderly (age 60 or over).
    • 20% of all participants are non-elderly disabled people.
    • The average gross monthly income per food stamp household is $731; The average net income is $336.
    • 36% of participants are White, 22% are African-American, 10% are Hispanic, 2% are Asian, 4% are Native American, and 19% are of unknown race or ethnicity.[13]

    On 2008 electorate of ~130MM, that represents a 6% NEW voting block.

    • 6eorge Jetson
      • http://vikimason.com runnamuck

        Now, if you look at those food stamp rolls – particularly after the USDA has been running “It’s cool to use food stamps” ads on Hispanic radio and television and add to it the welfare recipients who – thanks to a new but very quiet “policy adjustment” – can now avoid the work part of the “welfare to work” program hammered out in 1996 by the team of Clinton/Gingrich, where does that put the Obama advantage?

        The Obama Empire, which totally ignores and circumvents the law whenever possible, may very well win in November. I’ll probably have to join Ted Nugent in jail.

    • Ann_W

      Making it ok for Obama to get a smaller % of the groups that lean toward him?

      • 6eorge Jetson

        I doubt we’ll see much of an increase vs 2008.

        Obama’s 2012 Chances and Democratic Demographic Dreaming

        And while the headline from the release of the decennial census was the surge in the Latino share of the populace, the lesser-known truth is that Latino immigration has largely stopped over the past several years. It may have even reversed. There are multiple reasons for this, including the United States

        • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

          votes in states we won last time.

  • checkmate2012

    suggestions to get more of the black vote? I did some research and found that even Reagan only got 10% of the non-white vote. That’s how it was worded in the articles I found on-line.

    The best uniter in my memory and opinion, and yet even he couldn’t break through to the black voters.

    We need answers and surely won’t find them in the leaders of the NAACP I’m afraid.

    • http://vikimason.com runnamuck

      I live in a primarily black community in the Deep South. They all THINK they are democrats. Yet, they are generally pro life and at least in the case of property-owning blacks, pro small government.

      They need to learn that their interests are better represented by the GOP. Since their “leaders” won’t tell them, they need to find new leaders.

      • checkmate2012

        I agree that should open their eyes to free-market solutions as an uplifting force for all but contend that West left their plantation…his words not mine but point taken.

        Here’s my solution: Romney should have a round table with the top governors and cities that are predominantly black and ask them what their priorities are to help their communities.

        He can tell them he agrees or disagrees based on liberty and capitalism. But he won’t pander and I’m afraid that’s what they want to hear. Lost cause except for the smart folks that lift themselves up by their own bootstraps and don’t rely on gov’t handouts to get their votes. I don’t see it changing anytime soon :(

        • http://vikimason.com runnamuck

          There was a discussion about black on black violence and the general horrors of the black community in Chicago and other cities. They blamed it upon “fatherlessness” and I tend to agree. The upshot of the whole thing was, unless/until black men actually “father” the children they produce, the problems of the black community will get worse.

          In 1965 the number of fatherless homes in the black community was something like 24%. Today more than 70% of black babies are born to single women. This is a result of the welfare system which was implemented at about the same time and has grown steadily worse ever since. The system creates a disincentive to marry and maintain a traditional home. The result is obvious.

          Of course, there are some who find that perpetuating this kind of situation keeps them rolling in the dough. That would include the NAACP and leaders such as Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.

  • checkmate2012

    achieve the fulfillment of said doc you are referring? Pray tell.

    And yes, most of us on this site love the Constitution and think we are in a post-Constitutional era, more pronounced by the current prez that would just as soon burn it if he had his way.

    • ladsmith

      Post-Consitutional era?
      Correct me if needed, but I think patriotic Americans love their country, defend their country, and want to see their country fulfill it’s greatest ideals and potential. I’m sure you can add additional characteristic. Did you have something else in mind when asking that question?

      • checkmate2012

        by the what you read here and went on to say: “I

        • Dave_A

          You know, the line about how the Paulies are just ‘patriots trying to fulfil the Constitution’, and how it’s so wrong that Redstate boots ‘em on sight….

          • checkmate2012

            of a Paulbot. Good point and thanks. I’m sure I’ll never get a real answer from ladsmith.

        • checkmate2012

          Didn’t think so if you don’t even understand that we are in a Post-Consitutional era.

  • http://vikimason.com runnamuck

    Yesterday’s column from Cal Thomas on the subject of the NAACP and the Romney visit was excellent.
    It can be found at:
    http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/thomas071712.php3

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