Part I of this open letter addresses health care Part III addresses various concerns
“The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they’re ignorant, it’s just that they know so much that isn’t so.” – Ronald Reagan
Liberals are not born. They are created. When people become entrenched in false ideas they no longer feel a need to search for truth. But we would be mistaken to suppose conservatives are not also vulnerable. We have a proclivity to principles, but we are not perfect.
For instance, Romney haters are not born. They are made. And they know so much that isn’t so.
Those who have read Part I of this open letter understand that I believe Mitt Romney has been smeared repeatedly, demonstrably. Unfortunately, many anti-Romney folks have seemingly declared, in the words of Al Gore, “The Debate Is Over.” That is not a conservative approach.
Conservatives are at their best when they take time to think. To be intellectually curious. Demand answers. Hold feet to the fire. To search until they get to the bottom. At their best, they are too smart to be taken by sleight-of-hand. And as a Romney supporter, I want conservatives who oppose Romney to challenge themselves and to challenge me.
The debate is not over. It has just begun.
In upcoming diaries I will challenge you on all the issues. But first I will challenge you on your own vision. According to many of you, your main problem with Romney is trust. But you are trusting sources that tell you not to trust Romney, without extensively delving into those sources, and so due diligence is called for.
If honesty is your concern, I would hope you’d take pause when you see dishonest attacks against Mitt. Especially when critics are lying to falsely accuse Mitt of lying. But that has happened repeatedly, creating a false narrative that Romney lacks honesty, a narrative that ironically feeds the continued justification of further false claims about Mitt.
And that leads me to Rick Perry. You should have a problem with him.
Let’s start with the recent debate. I’ve seen Perry supporters applaud his false claim that Romney hired illegal immigrants. The claim is false both technically and in spirit, and yet Perry stood there projecting indignation, which indicates he either did not understand the facts or was lying about them. Interrupting Romney’s segway into correcting Perry’s false details, Perry with a straight face said, “the American people want the truth.”
Disliking Romney does not mean you should take pleasure in dishonesty, especially while you claim to want a candidate you can trust.
The purpose of the debates is not to see how many viewers a candidate can fool. Certainly there are times when candidates unintentionally mistake the facts. This is not one of those times. Rick Perry planned in advance to break the rules he had signed, which his campaign justifies with the false spin claim that everyone else has been doing the same thing. After putting his signature down in agreement to those rules, he premeditated to break them. His word is not his bond. The debate moderator said, “I thought Republicans follow the rules.”
In contrast to Perry; Romney, earlier in that same debate, requested specific permission to break a rule, saying, “I know we’re not supposed the ask each other questions, but if you permit.” Romney does not break the debate rules except to finish a sentence when the time expires, because his signature means something to him.
Perry, who drew first blood against Romney, has made clear his attacks will continue:
“This is the start of Romney vs. Romney. We’ll have him debating himself before this is over,”
Problem is, so far Perry’s attacks have been nothing but dishonest. Not just a little dishonest, but carefully crafted smears, every bit as bad as Michael Moore.
For example, here’s one of Perry’s smear ads:
And here is a break-down of the Perry smear:
Notice they stopped the video a tenth of a second before Romney’s “but” where he said he wants the issue handled by the states, which completely refutes the premise of Perry’s attack. They also spliced the video to take out Romney saying, “I hope that isn’t heresy in this room,” then covered-up their splice job by fading into the video immediately after the splice.
Here’s another example in the list of Perry’s smears:
Notice that Perry shows Obama talking about cap-and-trade, while calling Obama’s statement a “carbon copy” of what Romney said. But Romney wasn’t talking about cap-and-trade. He was talking about excessive pollution from some power plants, citing an aging coal-fired plant which was spewing pollutants in the densely populated state of Massachusetts. Carbon dioxide was only one of the substances regulated to ensure the plants were not excessively polluting.
The problem wasn’t that the plants were producing too much energy, but that they were producing energy inefficiently and thus polluting excessively.
Rick Perry is not only being dishonest but hypocritical, as he boasts on his official website:
“The need for clean air is something we all can agree on … The federal Clean Air Act falls short of Texas standards. The federal system allows older plants to be “grandfathered” without requiring or encouraging upgrades to air quality equipment. That’s why aging, inefficient facilities in other parts of the country continue to chug along, spewing out pollution using environmental technology many decades old, mostly in areas now – ironically – considered “in full compliance” with the federal Clean Air Act.”
Rick Perry also took an implied swipe at Romney in a speech, saying, “Massachusetts was one of the first states to implement its own cap and trade program.” Perry let the false implication against Romney stand without mentioning that the program was enacted under Governor Patrick, not Governor Romney. Romney said no to the regional climate change agreement, after researching its impact on business.
Perry’s position on Global Warming seems similar to Romney’s. Both apparently accept that carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas and contributes some to the warming effect, and both believe that fact is insufficient reason to hurt businesses.
Perry said, at the Reagan Library debate:
“The fact of the matter is, the science is not settled on whether or not the climate change is being impacted by man to the point where we’re going to put America’s economics in jeopardy.”
Here’s a sample of what Romney said, in his hardcover, pages 227-230:
“I am uncertain how much of the warming, however, is attributable to man and how much is attributable to factors out of our control. I do not support radical feel-good policies … Of course, there are also reasons for skepticism. The earth may be getting warmer, but there have been numerous times in the earth’s history when temperatures have been warmer than they are now … If developing nations won’t curb emissions, even extreme mitigation measures taken by the United States and other developed nations will have no appreciable effect on slowing the rate of greenhouse gas emissions.”
The next Perry smear:
Notice that Perry does not display the complete sentence, let alone the complete paragraph. Instead, he shows it in the context of the previous paragraph. But even from that previous paragraph, you can see that Romney was talking about the tax cut portion of the stimulus, having put it in that context in the previous line by stating that congressional Democrats fail to understand “the crucial role played by tax cuts.” It is in this context that Romney said the stimulus would not help “as much as it could have,” and this is clear when we actually see the whole sentence and paragraph from the hardcover, p. 144-145:
“The all-Democrat stimulus that was passed in early 2009 will accelerate the timing of the recovery, but not as much as it could have had it included genuine tax- and job-generating incentives. President Obama and his economic team said their stimulus would hold unemployment below 8 percent, but unemployment soared well above that level. Not only has the 2009 package already been far less than successful, it will impose a heavy burden on the economy in the intermediate and long-term.”
The Perry video also claims a “FLIP FLOP” because Romney added in the paperback version that the stimulus had “failed.” In reality, Romney wrote the hardcover during the initial phase of the stimulus and thus could not yet claim that it had “failed,” but could only say it had “already been far less than successful.”
Perry also fails to mention that on page 31 of the hardcover, Romney says “the record and achievement of modern free-market capitalism” is “now at risk because of the economic policies of President Obama.” Romney goes on to say, “His effort to expand the size, reach and role of government is without precedent in our history. His plans would leave us with a crushing deficit and debt, far beyond anything we have ever experienced.” Also on page 31, Romney writes that “at a time when Europe is moving away from socialism and its many failures, President Obama is moving toward that direction.”
Here’s the remaining Perry smear video:
Let’s look closer at what Romney actually said:
Yes, Romney says on the same page that he wants each state to fashion a plan to meet the “distinct needs of its citizens.” In context, we can see that when he gets to the line about accomplishing something for the whole country, he really is referring to “something people have been talking about for decades,” which obviously isn’t his own health care plan which had only been around a few years, not decades. He was talking about “portable, affordable health insurance,” and was not saying his way was the only way to get there. Although it has worked in Massachusetts, as we discussed in Part I of this letter.
Romney has always maintained this position, even before announcing his first Presidential bid. For instance, in 2006 Mitt Romney said this on Meet the Press: “There are certain aspects of it that I think would work across the country, perhaps better in some states than others. Of course the great thing about federalism is you let a state try it and see how it works before you spread it out.”
And so we see that all of Perry’s attacks are smears. Romney is not completely blameless himself, but has not distorted Perry’s words. The worst thing Romney has done is point out the high unemployment rate in Texas, which is accurate but attributable to the national employment crisis. But Perry set the tone for that, when he drew first blood against Romney by attacking the number of jobs created in Massachusetts, even though Massachusetts had a low unemployment rate under Romney and is one of the smallest, most densely populated States in the Union and therefore is largely saturated with jobs and people, unlike larger states which have room for sprawl. Texas is a huge, centrally located hub with lots of space and cheap land.
Perry even compared the number of jobs created under Romney with those created under Dukakis even though Dukakis was governor at a time when women were starting to enter the workforce in unprecedented numbers which enlarged the pool of potential employees just like people moving into Texas has done. So, if Perry wants to take credit and assign blame based the raw numbers with no context, his own record looks bad, and that’s what Romney points out.
If people had seen only Perry’s video smears, not knowing the actual context, they might have thought they knew the “real” Romney. But, like liberals, they would have “known so much that isn’t so.” And that’s the way it is with a lot of other attacks against Romney.
This time we are focusing our attention on abortion. In future diaries we will cover taxes and fees, gay marriage, gun control and all the other issues
The reader may have a list of things they’ve heard, on a range of issues. But if you are to judge Mitt objectively, you must focus. We cannot discuss all issues at the same time, so don’t use your beliefs about where Mitt stands on other issues to dismiss his authenticity on the issue under discussion.
I see at least two facts to objectively indicate Mitt’s abortion position is authentic. First, he refused to be called pro-choice when that label would have helped him while he ran in MA in 1994 and also in 2002. In 1999, Romney said, “I am in favor of the women of America having the opportunity to make the right choice by providing support and care for those who want to take the child to full term and put it up for adoption.” When he first announced he was running in 1994, he could have easily claimed to be pro-choice. Instead, he said he had counseled women to not have abortions and personally opposed abortion but as far as laws were concerned he believed abortion should be legal. He has characterized his position as “effectively pro-choice,” but he always differed ideologically with the pro-choice movement (Critics can find only one quote where Romney, in a single instance and with other people talking over him in a televised 2007 debate, left out the word ‘effective’ when explaining what his position had been: “I was pro-choice. I am pro-life. I changed my position.” But Romney has explained his “effectively pro-choice” position many times, and only once misspoke, so Romney is justified when he says, “I never said I was pro-choice”). Second, when Romney became pro-life he didn’t just grab a list of things someone is supposed to say in order to appear pro-life. Rather, he took it issue by issue, starting with Roe.
In neither of these cases did he do the politically expedient thing.
Yes, you could point out that Mitt’s conversion took place two years before he ran for president. However, this ignores the larger context because this was also the first time Romney faced the issue in public office. Mitt Romney had spent his life in the private sector, not in politics. His experiences with abortion consisted of personal encounters with women, and he counseled them against abortion. In one case, as an LDS Bishop, Romney “showed up unannounced at the hospital, warning her sternly not to go forward.” If abortion had been illegal, he may never have had a chance to speak with these pregnant women in the first place. And it is difficult to overstate how important that was to Mitt, since he did not have a chance to counsel his dear relative who died from an illegal abortion in 1967. The law did not stop her, it only scared her into keeping it secret. Romney undoubtedly asked himself what he could have done if he had known. And calling the police to have her arrested probably didn’t seem as effective as putting his arm around her, letting her cry and open up, offering support and telling her what a wonderful mother she was going to make. Mitt saw the sinister underground abortion industry which killed young girls as well as unborn children. And he saw that the laws against abortion failed to stop it from happening because it happens behind closed doors, and the unborn victims have no official record of ever existing. The sad elephant in the room is that no law can stop abortion, just as no law can stop suicide. That’s the epiphany Romney had in 1967, which the pro-life movement has not had. But Mitt had an even greater epiphany as Governor. He saw that the legalization of abortion had cheapened the value of unborn life and was hurting the ideological fight. He toured embryonic research facilities and met with researchers where he saw this first-hand. When a bill came to his desk to make a “morning after” pill more available, he vetoed it and wrote an Op-Ed explaining that his views had evolved and that “the starting point should be the innocence and vulnerability of the child waiting to be born.”
After the veto, critics claimed Romney had broken a campaign promise. During the campaign he had answered “yes” on a questionnaire asking if he would expand access to so-called “emergency contraception.” However, at the time he filled out the questionnaire he took it at it’s word that it was referring to “contraception” rather than “contragestion,” meaning the prevention of the embryo from implanting in the uterus. But Mitt had since done more research as to how such things work. When asked by reporters about the veto, Mitt said, “I do support expansion of emergency contraception; I have no problem with emergency contraception. This product not only does that, but in some cases terminates life after conception. In that case, it ceases to be an emergency contraception bill and becomes an emergency abortion bill.”
Now on to the questions.
*Didn’t Romney force private hospitals to provide morning after pills to rape victims? No, the legislature did. Romney tried to find a way out but in the end was forced to comply with the law just as every other governor has had to enable abortion in their states, including Mike Huckabee and Rick Perry. Romney vetoed the legislation and the legislature overrode Romney’s veto, after which Romney tried to make an exemption for private hospitals by citing a conscience clause in state law. However, two factors prevented Romney from successfully crafting the exemption: first, the legislature has authority to supersede previous laws with new laws, and second, the clear intent of the legislature was for this bill to supersede any contradictory statutes or provisions – not to work in harmony with the older statute, which Romney would have had to argue disingenuously in court were he to challenge the intended effect of the law. It was in this context that Romney told the Department of Public Health they had to enforce the intent of the law even though he disagreed with it. Romney believes that in the case of rape a woman should be able to take a “morning after pill,” but he also believes the state should not force private hospitals to offer such pills, even to rape victims.
*What about Romney signing a bill in October 2005 to expand family planning services, including “emergency contraception?” First, Romney had vetoed the waiver application two years earlier but even without the waiver the state was still covering these “family planning services,” spending five million dollars each year for those who made too much money to qualify for Medicaid. The waiver was largely for federal reimbursement for treatment already being provided. To put this in perspective we should note that most states, including Texas (See here, or even just here), allow Title X federal funds, which cover “emergency contraception.” That’s not the same program as the waiver, but the effect is the same in that federal funds pay for emergency contraception. We might also note that President George W. Bush and his Republican Congress continued this federal funding.
Second, in October of 2005 Romney was negotiating with the Massachusetts legislature on his health care plan which would make the provisions of the waiver moot. Behind the scenes, Romney had approval from the U.S. Secretary of Health and Human Services to take the funds which the federal government provides to states and divert them to the health care plan (“Romneycare”) he was working on. So, Romney applied for all of the funds offered, with the understanding that those funds would be rolled over into helping poor people purchase private insurace (and Romney insisted on having everyone pay something, but his successor and the legislature later changed that so some people are given insurance for free).
*But didn’t Romney’s health care bill include $50 abortion copays? No, the bill does not mention abortion. Blaming the co-pay on Romney is a bit like blaming the founding fathers for Roe v Wade, since the Constitution created the Supreme Court. The truth is, the bill Romney signed does not say anything about abortion but creates an independent agency called the “Connector” which sets the co-pay amount.
Moreover, two MA court decisions require state programs to cover abortion. Some critics claim that the court decisions were not legally binding, since the decisions were not codified into law. However, this attempted criticism could be applied as easily to Roe v Wade itself, as many states have not codified it into law, yet adhere to it, understanding that even though it could be called a “mere” declaratory opinion it sets precedent under Stare Decisis. In other words, the actual “judgment” of Roe v Wade was technically only about one plaintiff and one defendant, but the “opinion” is understood to have sweeping ramifications in all similar cases. Critics also claim that the term “medically necessary abortions” used in the court decisions only applies to abortions where the life of the mother is in jeopardy. Again, this is incorrect. “Medically necessary” is widely interpreted to mean treatment provided for any non-cosmetic, non-recreational reason. It applies to pain, and therefore applies to any pregnant woman seeking an abortion, since women are naturally pained or expected to become pained physically or psychologically as a result of a pregnancy.
In addition to having their facts wrong, critics are missing the point. Abortion in Massachusetts has declined since the health care bill passed. Between 1991 and 2005 U.S. abortion rates had steadily declined, according to a comprehensive study by the Guttmacher Institute. But that trend has changed. Between 2005 and the most recent available figures (2008), the U.S. abortion rate rose from 19.4 to 19.6 abortions per 1,000 women (aged 15-44). However, Massachusetts is bucking the national trend. In 2005, Massachusetts had a rate of 19.9. In 2006, Romney signed his health care bill. In 2007, the Massachusetts abortion rate dropped to 19.0. In 2008, the Massachusetts abortion rate further dropped to 18.3.
Being pro-life is about saving unborn children, not saving money. A full priced abortion (about 500 dollars) is not a financial deterrent to abortion, because a much more costly full-priced delivery is by far a bigger financial deterrent to giving live birth. The trade-off Romney got for allowing the Connector to set co-pay amounts is the ability to assure pregnant women that their pre-natal care, their delivery costs and the future health care needs of their children are all safely taken care of because they are insured. Therefore, they no longer have a financial deterrent to bringing their child into the world. And Romney’s strategy has worked.
Some might claim that Romney secretly thought his bill would incentivize abortion. However, the reduction shows it did not incentivize abortion, and that line of attack does not bear out with the approach Romney takes to solving problems. Romney explains in his book, “We would add data–a lot of data, so much, in fact, that I wasn’t comfortable until I had been fully immersed in it.” He also tells the story of a single mom he personally knew who had cancer in remission and couldn’t find work because “employers didn’t want someone with her health costs in their insurance pool … as governor, I was in a position to do something about it.” So he understood the burden this mom was carrying by not having insurance, and thus understood the concern a woman would have about bringing a child into the world without insurance. And Mitt undoubtedly has wondered if bringing a child into the world without being able to provide for that child’s needs may have been the concern his relative had before dying at such a young age from an illegal abortion. I think Mitt understood better than most what the real effect of his health care plan would be, and that effect has been to save lives.
As Ralph Waldo Emerson said, “To be great is to be misunderstood.” Weak minds always criticize great minds, and Romney’s health care plan bears that out. Those who don’t understand the effect of his plan can’t argue with the reduction in abortion, they can only make superficial arguments about charging money.
*But didn’t Romney’s bill give Planned Parenthood a seat on a major board? No, it was a healthcare payment policy advisory board, and as the name of the board implies, the purpose of the board is simply to gather financial data on medical costs for the state’s use. The board has no policy purvue and includes representatives from all the major medical groups, so excluding Planned Parenthood would have been impractical. Allowing the legislature to include Planned Parenthood on the board is not a concession of morality pertaining to abortion, but a concession of the reality of current state of the law pertaining to abortion.
*But doesn’t Romney want to donate surplus in-vitro fertilization embryos to scientific research? Romney wants the embryos to be adopted. But when that doesn’t happen they are simply destroyed. Just as parents who take their children off life support can donate their organs to save other lives, Romney wants parents to be able to donate their embryos which would otherwise be destroyed, to stem cell research, reducing the number of new embryos created for research. The decision to take a life, whether a child on life support or embryos which have no chance of survival, is tragic. Mitt does not like the options but believes this is better than the alternative.
*But in 1994, didn’t Romney push for federal funding of abortion and codification of Roe v. Wade? We are of course interested in Romney’s actual position during the campaign, taken completely in context. However, in the only quote from Romney available, he said, “I am not in favor of government funding of abortion.” Statements made by a campaign adviser named Charles Manning, who was a friend but not a spokesman, indicate that Romney’s position was open to some compromise. Unfortunately, we don’t have access to the type of direct statement from Romney which would allow us to judge his position fairly. We don’t know exactly what Romney said or what he said it in response to. But we do have a quote from the Boston Herald on Oct. 10, 1994 which indicates that whatever Mitt did say was in the context of placing limits on how far he was willing to go. To wit, this was not Mitt trying to push abortion, but in fact was Mitt setting boundaries. This only demonstrates his ideological disagreement with the pro-choice movement, and lends further insight into his refusal to be called “pro-choice.” According to the Herald, “Romney has said he would support the Freedom of Choice Act with two qualifications: as long as it did not go beyond codifying Roe v. Wade and as long as it leaves it to states to decide on using federal funds for abortion.”
*Why did Mitt’s wife, Ann, donate 150 dollars to Planned Parenthood in 1994? That does sound bad knowing what we do about Planned Parenthood. But this was ’94, before the internet, in a liberal state. The propaganda put out by PP and by the media downplayed abortion and portrayed PP as a safe place where women can turn for resources and counseling. The facts were presented in pro-life literature, but were not widely available. For example, Ronald Reagan never even mentioned Planned Parenthood. So before judging Ann Romney, consider “Race for the Cure.” How many people realize that when they donate to “Race for the Cure” they are giving a chunk of money to Planned Parenthood? Furthermore, Romney at the time was trying to minimize the political damage of his anti-abortion views by emphasizing the legal similarities between his view and the views held more widely in Massachusetts. The donation was made during a campaign stop at a Planned Parenthood fundraiser. Ann Romney has indicated the check may have been to cover an entrance fee. This does not justify the donation, which was clearly unfortunate, but does indicate Ann was trying to be courteous on the campaign trail.
*Why did Mitt appear so adamant about protecting the pro-choice laws, in the ’94/’02 videos? That was in the context of critcs questioning him because of his personal opposition to abortion and his refusal to be called “pro-choice.” His opponents were claiming that since he was opposed to abortion he couldn’t be trusted. So he was making clear that if elected he would not change their laws. That is important because Mitt did not want to push the abortion laws further, and his pledge allowed him to veto pro-abortion legislation. People who show the video clips usually leave out the context. For instance, the 1994 video with Ted Kennedy leaves out the full question from the moderator. The question was, “Mr. Romney, you personally oppose abortion and as a church leader have advised women not to have an abortion. Given that, how could you in good conscience support a law that enables women to have an abortion, and even lets the Government pay for it? If abortion is morally wrong, aren’t you responsible for discouraging it?”
*But what about the video of Mitt in 2005 promising not to change the law in Massachusetts? Mitt reminded MA that his campaign pledge was to not change their abortion laws. That video was two months before he announced he was pro-life, so Romney was evidently making sure they understood exactly what he had promised during the campaign. That way he would be free to veto pro-choice legislation, without being accused of breaking his campaign promise. He never promised to make the laws more abortion friendly. This was a pro-life strategy because in liberal MA he would not be able to dent the pro-choice laws or pass any type of pro-life law, which he understood when he first made the promise in each campaign.
*Why did Mitt state at the Palmetto freedom forum that he wouldn’t use the 14th amendment to push anti-abortion legislation? Because the Supreme Court addressed that in Roe, stating: “the word ‘person,’ as used in the Fourteenth Amendment, does not include the unborn.” What type of chaos could this create? First, criminal proceedings for abortionists would go through the court system. So defying the Supreme Court, which overrules all other courts, accomplishes nothing. Anarchy does not protect the unborn.
*Why did Romney not sign the Susan B. Anthony List pledge? Because it does not take enough factors into account. As the pledge is written, it would require Romney to defund an entire hospital even if the only time that hospital performs abortion is to save the life of a mother. It is not necessary to defund entire hospitals in order to defund abortion. Laws can be written to regulate how hospitals divert government funds. The other problem with the pledge is that it would prevent him from considering all factors when making non-judicial appointments. For instance, he could not appoint Rudy Giuliani as Attorney General. In 2008, Texas Governor Rick Perry endorsed Giuliani for the office of President, which is obviously much more significant than a DOJ appointment. But we wouldn’t accuse Perry of not being pro-life. In the same vein, wanting the freedom to make exceptions does not put Romney at odds with the ideology behind the pledge. If Mitt wanted to pander, he could have signed the pledge. But he instead wrote out his own pro-life pledge.
*But didn’t Mitt appoint a pro-choice judge? Again, Giuliani is pro-choice, and Rick Perry wanted to “appoint” Rudy to the most powerful office in the world, not just as a district court judge. I realize critics claim Romney is not conservative because he did not have a Republican litmus test in his selection of judicial nominees. However, almost all of Romney’s appointments, 30 out of 36, were to lower court positions where judges deal directly with criminals at the district and magistrate levels. Rather than political affiliation, Romney looked for effective prosecutorial experience and a record of being tough on crime. As Romney explained when asked about it, “people on both sides of the aisle want to put the bad guys away.” Rick Perry himself illustrates that fact, as he used to be a Democrat but has always been strong on crime and the death penalty.
Romney explained that even though he had only a few chances to appoint judges to higher courts, and no chances to appoint anyone to the MA Supreme Judicial Court, in those cases the criteria changes to include “strict construction, judicial philosophy,” which he adhered to in those appointments. In all, only 12.5% of registered voters in Massachusetts are Republican and Romney’s 9 Republican nominees count for 25% of his total judicial appointments, representing Republicans twice as well as they are represented in the general voting public. But more important than political affiliation, Romney’s appointments represent the relevant conservative qualifications.
*But didn’t Mitt tell an abortion rights organization that they “could use someone like me in Washington?” That claim was found on notes someone took during a meeting, but they did not include any context. And as the reader should understand by now, Romney takes a comprehensive view of issues and is often misunderstood.
*But isn’t the life question a simple yes or no?
It is much more complicated than that. Does being pro-life mean the government charges women who have abortions with murder, and then seeks the death penalty? Rick Santorum says no (“I’ve never supported criminalization of abortion for mothers, but I do for people who perform them”) but does that mean Rick Santorum doesn’t think it’s a baby?
If someone believes a woman should be charged with murder, does that make them more pro-life? Who has the authority to declare that?
Because his position was not like any other, Romney did not feel that he could call himself “pro-life.” But at the same time, as he has repeatedly explained, he chose to not be called “pro-choice.” For instance, he said, “Over the last multiple years, as you know, I have been effectively pro-choice. I never called myself that (pro-choice) as a label but I was effectively pro-choice and that followed a personal experience in my extended family that led to that conclusion.” Romney also said: “I never called myself pro-choice. I never allowed myself to use the word ‘pro-choice,’ because I didn’t feel I was pro-choice. I would protect the law, I said, as it was, but I wasn’t pro-choice.”
Discussing his aforementioned conversion, Romney explained: “It struck me very powerfully at that point that the Roe v. Wade approach has so cheapened the value of human life that somebody could think it’s not a moral issue to destroy embryos.” To Romney, it had always been a moral issue. His struggle related to the role of government. Romney said “I’ve always been personally pro-life, but for me, it was a great question about whether or not government should intrude in that decision.”
I realize it is easy to judge Mitt. But it is harder to look at oneself in the mirror. For instance, the group “American Right To Life” (not to be confused with the more mainstream “National Right To Life”), is fond of accusing people of being pro-abortion, including Billy Graham, Pat Robertson, Rick Perry, Sarah Palin, Mitt Romney, George W. Bush, John McCain, Sam Alito, John Roberts, even Antonin Scalia. But does ARTL realize it has the word “American” in it’s title? Does it not realize that the vast majority of unborn children are not in America? http://prolifeprofiles.com/tier4
Those of us who are pro-life believe protecting unborn children is a legitimate role of federal and state government. However, everyone seems to agree that the pro-life responsibility of government only applies to a small fraction of unborn children: those living in our country. No conservatives, including those in the current crop of GOP candidates, advocate declaring war on other nations to save unborn children. Not even to save those unborn children in our own neighboring nations, Canada and Mexico, both of which we could easily invade. The quick observer might ask: if slavery merited war, why does abortion not? Indeed, while our Constitution requires us to respect Supreme Court decisions such as Roe, it does not require us to respect other nations. It places no limits on our potential reasons for declaring war. We may very well have an easier time changing abortion laws in various other countries than passing a human life amendment in our own.
So people attack Mitt, yet when it comes to fighting for the vast majority of unborn children, these ostensibly “true” pro-lifers are content with unceremonious and ineffective attempts at winning hearts and minds. They may be “personally” pro-life but with respect to most pregnant women, their position is “effectively” pro-choice.
He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone at Mitt Romney’s change from personally pro-life (“effectively pro-choice”) to more “conventionally” pro-life.
Perhaps Romney’s critics might justify their own “globally pro-choice” position by calling it a practical necessity. Perhaps they might not feel it is our government’s business to tell women around the world what to do. Okay, that’s fine. But don’t turn around and criticize Mitt Romney for likewise grappling with the role of government.
Some of Romney’s harshest critics presume to speak for God on the role of government pertaining to unborn life. But neither Jesus nor his Apostles gave commandments concerning the role of our government. Jesus said his kingdom is “not of this world” (John 18:36), never saying how man’s government should enforce his laws. Some might cite the Law of Moses, which does indeed explain the role of Israelite government. However, it requires capital punishment for adultery, with no exception or provision for the possibility that the woman may have become pregnant as a result of the adultery or may have already been pregnant. Thus, God’s law as given to Moses did not acknowledge rights for unborn children of adulterers (Deuteronomy 22: 22-24). In short, Moses would be “pro-abortion” by the standards of the ARTL. But nothing in scripture provides grounds for criticizing any position Romney has taken concerning the role of government.
So, what is the “pro-life position?” The question is not just about recognizing unborn life. It’s about the best way to protect that unborn life. And here’s the problem Romney faced. If we prosecute people who perform abortion, that drives abortion underground like alcohol during prohibition. The logistics of trying to stop abortion are nearly impossible because the victim has no record of ever existing – and unfortunately miscarriage is very common so even if someone knows that a woman was pregnant it’s very difficult to prove an abortion took place and even more difficult to then track down whoever performed the abortion. So Mitt thought the solution would be changing hearts and minds and that it would be easier to do that without an underground abortion industry.
In the end, criticisms of Romney do not diminish his pro-life ideology. We give our military leaders leeway to use different strategies in different terrain. We must give our political leaders that same leeway as they fight for conservatism in liberal terrain like Massachusetts.
On February 9, 1983, when Ronald Reagan was asked about people who said he was “moving away from the policies and principles” that got him elected, Reagan responded by explaining that compromise is not retreat: “I’m not retreating an inch from where I was. But I also recognize this: There are some people who would have you so stand on principle that if you don’t get all that you’ve asked for from the legislature, why, you jump off the cliff with the flag flying. I have always figured that a half a loaf is better than none, and I know that in the democratic process you’re not going to always get everything you want. So, I think what they’ve misread is times in which I have compromised.”
Indeed, if there is a gold standard for the pro-life movement, that standard is Ronald Reagan. But in his last two years as President, Reagan had to compromise with a Democratic Senate on his judicial appointments. Reagan nominated Anthony Kennedy to the Supreme Court, even though Kennedy showed clear signs of being pro-choice, by citing Roe v Wade favorably and expressing a belief in a constitutional right to privacy. With the new Democratic Senate, Reagan could not appoint a clear conservative to the Supreme Court and had to compromise with a nominee the Senate would confirm.
Reagan had first nominated a clear pro-life conservative, Robert Bork, for the seat which ultimately became occupied by Anthony Kennedy. Announcing the nomination on July 1, 1987, Reagan remarked, “Judge Bork is recognized as a premier constitutional authority. His outstanding intellect and unrivaled scholarly credentials are reflected in his thoughtful examination of the broad, fundamental legal issues of our times.”
However, the late Senator Ted Kennedy was noted for leading a strong opposition to Bork in the Senate. Ted Kennedy was Senator from Massachusetts, where he reflected the climate Romney worked in as governor of that state.
Bork, who knows from firsthand experience what Romney faced in “Ted Kennedy’s Massachusetts,” endorsed Mitt Romney for President in both 2007 and 2011 and currently serves as chief of Romney’s legal advisory council.


Caleb Howe
Jeff Emanuel
Mitt Romney gives pro-family speeches to conservatives and has an actual record of being aggressively pro-abortion both before and especially after his claimed "pro-life" conversion
izoneguy (Diary) Tuesday, October 25th at 11:12PM EDT (link)Mitt Romney gives pro-family speeches to conservatives and has an actual record of being aggressively pro-abortion both before and especially after his claimed “pro-life” conversion
Those who had once simpered: “I don’t want to destroy the rich, I only want to seize a little of their surplus to help the poor, just a little, they’ll never miss it!” – then, later, had snapped: “The tycoons can stand being squeezed; they’ve amassed enough to last them for three generations” – then, later, had yelled: “Why should the people suffer while businessmen have reserves to last a year?” – now were screaming: “Why should we starve while some people have reserves to last a week?” – Atlas Shrugged
I have no idea why you posted that.
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 6:21AM EDT (link)But you did so 12 minutes after I posted my diary. Maybe that explains why you didn’t actually address anything, um?
For instance, in the diary I point out that the organization you link to also says Rick Perry is pro-abortion. And George W. Bush, Ann Coulter, Chief Justice John Roberts, Sam Alito, even Antonin Scalia.
The diary says a lot of other things you might not know. How about reading it, then trying again?
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
I understand that you don' like it
streiff (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 8:47AM EDT (link)and I will give you credit for spinning the hell out of Romney’s very liberal public record, but the fact is that Romney campaigned as pro-choice, he remains “personally” pro-life but pro-choice in policy, and under his administration in Massachusettes public funded abortion expanded.
Nothing you say can change those facts.
“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”
Nothing you say can change those facts
izoneguy (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 9:29AM EDT (link)Nice try Ryan
Those who had once simpered: “I don’t want to destroy the rich, I only want to seize a little of their surplus to help the poor, just a little, they’ll never miss it!” – then, later, had snapped: “The tycoons can stand being squeezed; they’ve amassed enough to last them for three generations” – then, later, had yelled: “Why should the people suffer while businessmen have reserves to last a year?” – now were screaming: “Why should we starve while some people have reserves to last a week?” – Atlas Shrugged
Are you interested in truth, streiff?
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 10:29AM EDT (link)If so, let’s have a grown-up discussion. It might be best if you read the diary and then address specifics. I’ll be back on this afternoon. If you need more time than that, just let me know.
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
Ryan, you are free to believe whatever fairy tales
streiff (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 10:48AM EDT (link)you wish. Obviously your own sense of decency wasn’t offended by this post I think we are well past the point of “a grown-up discussion” as that implies I would be dealing with a non-pathological personality. That really isn’t the case.
BTW, don’t call me out again. If you do it won’t end well for you.
“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”
Is that a threat, Streiff?
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 12:30AM EDT (link)I don’t know what your statement is supposed to mean, but if you have something substantive to add, please do so.
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
Addendum
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 5:00AM EDT (link)Are you talking about using your name in the title? Or the fact that I asked you to back up your claim that my diary is untrue?
If it’s the former, that’s fine. If it’s the latter, I have a problem with that.
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
You Assume Incorrect Facts
phillarsen Wednesday, October 26th at 3:01PM EDT (link)How can you say Romney was pro-choice in policy when he vetoed all pro-choice legislation?
If Romney was so “pro-choice”, then why did the Massachusetts Citizens for Life give him a medal after he left office?
If Romney was so “pro-choice”, then why did John J. Miller of National Review say:
“Romney has done his best to defend the culture of life on what is possibly the most inhospitable terrain in the country…a good case can be made that Romney has fought harder for social conservatives than any other governor in America, and it is difficult to imagine his doing so in a more daunting political environment.”?
If Romney is so “pro-choice”, then why did noted conservative attorney James Bopp Jr. say:
“Both conviction and courage are necessary for effective pro-life leadership, and Romney, in office, displayed both.”?
Why would Kris Mineau of the Massachusetts Family Institute say Romney “has provided aggressive leadership as a positive, pro-family governor.”?
Please don’t buy the spin of the liberal media that Romney is a politician of convenience. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Oh yeah, feel free to answer my questions.
As far as “public funded abortion”, as you put it, abortion was already being funded in Massachusetts per a Supreme Court decision. There was nothing any lawmaker could do about that.
Mitt Romney on Abortion -- May 27, 2005
izoneguy (Diary) Tuesday, October 25th at 11:14PM EDT (link)Those who had once simpered: “I don’t want to destroy the rich, I only want to seize a little of their surplus to help the poor, just a little, they’ll never miss it!” – then, later, had snapped: “The tycoons can stand being squeezed; they’ve amassed enough to last them for three generations” – then, later, had yelled: “Why should the people suffer while businessmen have reserves to last a year?” – now were screaming: “Why should we starve while some people have reserves to last a week?” – Atlas Shrugged
Yes, that's one of the quotes
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 6:23AM EDT (link)I talked about in the diary. If you would actually read it, you might like it.
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
What does Romney's version of "pro life" mean?
izoneguy (Diary) Tuesday, October 25th at 11:18PM EDT (link)Those who had once simpered: “I don’t want to destroy the rich, I only want to seize a little of their surplus to help the poor, just a little, they’ll never miss it!” – then, later, had snapped: “The tycoons can stand being squeezed; they’ve amassed enough to last them for three generations” – then, later, had yelled: “Why should the people suffer while businessmen have reserves to last a year?” – now were screaming: “Why should we starve while some people have reserves to last a week?” – Atlas Shrugged
That's short-term
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 6:28AM EDT (link)Of course, Romney has said he would sign a human life amendment for the U.S. Constitution. He doesn’t think the nation is ready for that yet, so his strategic focus is on returning power to the states.
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
Details matter, Ryan. What flavor of human rights amendment are we talking about?
acat (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 10:49AM EDT (link)Ending capital punishment is a deal-breaker for me, y’see.
Mew
——

Caveat Suffragator
Human life amendment
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 12:50AM EDT (link)for unborn children
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
Another flop?
gekster (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 1:08AM EDT (link)from:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/inside-politics/2011/jun/17/romney-wont-sign-anti-abortion-pledge/
excerpt:
Marilyn Musgrave, director of the SBA List’s “Votes Have Consequences” project, told The Washington Times Friday that their “pro-life leadership pledge” requires candidates to promise to appoint justices that will “not legislate from the bench” and tap pro-lifers to Cabinet positions.
Also, it asks them to end taxpayer funding for abortion-rights groups, such as Planned Parenthood, and to sign the Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act, proposed legislation that aims to protect the life of an unborn child as soon as they’re capable of feeling pain, except in cases where the mother’s life is in danger.
and:
Noticeably missing from the list is Mr. Romney, the former Massachusetts governor. Mrs. Musgrave said that he’s been approached more than once “thus far, he has refused to” ink the pledge.
They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.
We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway
I’ve gone from
“Hope and Change” to
“Hopeless and Changeless”
gekster I remember the Romney - SBA issue early on
onemovoter (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 1:21AM EDT (link)Romney refused to sign the pledge but I don’t remember him ever saying why.
The bigger story is that Herman Cain also refused to sign it saying it had parts that to him violated US Constitutional bounds. I do remember reading the SBA pledge and some of it is a bit wacky.
However it does lend to the issue with Romney on his stances.
“Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain, and most fools do.”- Benjamin Franklin
“I don’t make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts.”- Will Rogers
I remember it.
gekster (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 1:33AM EDT (link)He sid it would resrict him from selecting qualified judges.
One thing in the pledge said not to pick judges that would legislat from the bench.
He didn’t want to do that.
I guess that was a deal breaker for him.
They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.
We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway
I’ve gone from
“Hope and Change” to
“Hopeless and Changeless”
I address that in the diary
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 1:23AM EDT (link)which you already knew, since you read it. Right?
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
Yes I read it.
gekster (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 1:29AM EDT (link)It is just showing another of Mitt’s many flip-flops again.
The man has no backbone and will say what needs to be said to get elected.
Something you either can not or will not see.
If you can’t see it, then I will be uncivil and question your intelligence.
If you are just refusing to see it, I again question your intelligence.
Either way, it shows a lack of intelligence on your part.
I can only deduce you are a paid bot.
That or a RomneyZombie.
They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.
We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway
I’ve gone from
“Hope and Change” to
“Hopeless and Changeless”
If you read it, why don't you address it?
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 2:05AM EDT (link)You told onemovoter it was about ” selecting qualified judges.” It’s about more than that, as I explain in the diary. So, why did you cherry pick?
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
It is hard to address when someone takes both sides of the issue.
gekster (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 2:18AM EDT (link)How can someone be for, then against an issue.
If he would have made a stand, and then held up to it,
shown some backbone, then there might be something to address.
But he changed his previous stand on it, and how do I know he won’t change it when convenient. What is his flavor of the day.
Are you that blind that you can’t see that.
I got to believe you are getting paid to shill this crap.
You ain’t doing it very well, try selling shoes.
They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.
We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway
I’ve gone from
“Hope and Change” to
“Hopeless and Changeless”
gekster I agree Romney likes to be on both sides...
onemovoter (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 2:42AM EDT (link)of the issues. That’s why it seems he keeps winning the debates, because no matter what, he’s been able to debate on both sides of each issue and come out with most agreeing with him. LOL.
But for us we know better.
“Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain, and most fools do.”- Benjamin Franklin
“I don’t make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts.”- Will Rogers
Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 5:35AM EDT (link)and most fools do.
That’s a good quote in the footer of your comments. I hope you’ll take it to heart and thoughtfully read and consider the diary, then thoughtfully write a response instead of barking cheap criticisms.
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
A different view point you...
daendda Thursday, October 27th at 6:00AM EDT (link)would have about criticism if this were a thread about Perry…
Would that be one of the "Life starts at conception" ones?
acat (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 1:21AM EDT (link)I was reading something while waiting for my catnip latte about how some Statehouses are trying to pass laws to that effect, and the impact it would have on abortion across the board.
Mew
——

Caveat Suffragator
I believe so,
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 1:35AM EDT (link)in the video below which izoneguy was kind enough to post, Romney talks with Russert about his support for the GOP platform position and treating life as beginning at conception.
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
Romney would have to see what the polls say before he makes up his mind.
gekster (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 1:38AM EDT (link)Just like the Ohio union thing.
He was neutral on that untill he found out from his handlers that he was for it.
(as mentioned on Rush today)
They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.
We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway
I’ve gone from
“Hope and Change” to
“Hopeless and Changeless”
kowalski: Romney goes with the flow, just like dead fish. nt
gekster (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 1:43AM EDT (link)ntntntntntandnt
They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.
We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway
I’ve gone from
“Hope and Change” to
“Hopeless and Changeless”
He didn't say he was neutral.
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 2:11AM EDT (link)You just made that up.
As usual, it was a smear.
“What I was referring to is I know there are other ballot questions there in Ohio, and I wasn’t taking a position on those,” he said. “One of them, for instance, relates to health care and mandates. I’ve said that that should be up to individual states. I of course took my state in one direction; they may want to go in a different direction. I don’t want to tell them what I think they ought to do in that regard. That’s up to them.”
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
He took a neutral stand.
gekster (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 2:24AM EDT (link)from:
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/281247/romney-declines-take-stand-ohios-sb-5-katrina-trinko
excerpt:
As Bob Costa recently detailed, Ohio’s Senate Bill 5 — which limits unions’ collective bargaining powers and requires state employees to contribute 10 percent to their pension plans and 15 percent of their health-care costs — is under fire and facing possible repeal. Today, Mitt Romney visited Ohio, and declined to give a position on SB 5, according to CNN’s Peter Hamby, who tweeted, “Romney visits OH GOP phone bank to rally troops opposing SB5 repeal, but refuses to take a position on SB5.”
Asked for comment, Romney spokesperson Andrea Saul e-mails, “Gov. Romney believes that the citizens of states should be able to make decisions about important matters of policy that affect their states on their own.”
UPDATE: A reader points out that Romney was comfortable endorsing New Hampshire’s right-to-work legislation in August. From the Boston Globe:
Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney today called on New Hampshire to become a right to work state, meaning non-union members cannot be forced to pay union fees.
They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.
We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway
I’ve gone from
“Hope and Change” to
“Hopeless and Changeless”
Like I said,
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 5:48AM EDT (link)when you posted the claim below:
There are a number of measures on the ballot, regarding a host of issues.
He wasn’t specifically asked about the measure to rollback Kasich’s bill. He was asked to give his opinion on the state ballot measures generally.
Apparently, the reporter took that to mean Romney wouldn’t comment on the measure relevant to our discussion. Course, it would be strange for the reporter to ask Romney about the measure when he was there to show his support for Kasich – so it sounds like a set-up. Unless you think the MSM is above such things.
That’s why it’s a smear. Don’t contribute to it.
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
Again you spin, spin, spin.
gekster (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 10:27AM EDT (link)He went to a phone bank that was calling on the union measure.
I find it hard to believe he didn’t ask as to what they were doing, calling about.
Spin, spin, spin.
They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.
We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway
I’ve gone from
“Hope and Change” to
“Hopeless and Changeless”
I didn't say that
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 8:18PM EDT (link)I said he was asked about the other measures. He obviously didn’t think they were asking about the union measure, since he was at the phone bank which makes his position on that one obvious.
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
Wrong again, Larson.
gekster (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 9:19PM EDT (link)from:
http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/10/romney-fight-the-sb-5-repeal-that-i-dont-have-a-position-on.php
excerpt:
SB 5, the union-busting legislation Ohio Gov. John Kasich worked hard to pass and is now working to save, seems headed for defeat in a statewide referendum set to take place on November 8th. But no worries, SB 5 supporters! Former Mass Gov. Mitt Romney, Presidential candidate and consistent straight talker, has come to the rescue. According to a tweet from CNN’s Peter Hamby, Romney stopped by a pro-SB 5 phone bank in Ohio to rally the troops.
Then, when asked what his own position was, Romney said….well…he didn’t have one.
________________________________
The phone bank was pro-SB-5. That was all they were calling about.
They were not calling about any other issue.
Now spin, spin, spin.
They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.
We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway
I’ve gone from
“Hope and Change” to
“Hopeless and Changeless”
Ok, is Mitt for the laws or for repeal? Do we know? Does he want this matter left vague?
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 8:56PM EDT (link)If so, that’s worse than being for repeal.
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com and Charlotte Observer columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
There are seven versions of the Human Life Amendment
mbecker908 (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 9:50AM EDT (link)that have been introduced in Congress. Are you talking – is Romney talking – about one of those? If so, which one because they are dramatically different and at least five do nothing to change current law. Or perhaps you’re talking about some other version.
Be specific.
I don't know.
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 8:20PM EDT (link)He said he supports the Republican platform. If the platform isn’t specific, then there isn’t much more info of which I am aware.
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
I think the GOP platform is generic and doesn't reference a specific
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 9:08PM EDT (link)version, but I could be wrong. Fred Thompson convinced me that its no use to seek such an Amendment given the number of Democrats in red state senate seats. But I do think we should as a party be for some version. I think abortion is murder unless its the life of the mother, but if we had to include rape to get the amendment, then I could live with that. But the question is moot given the super-majorities required to amend.
The better immediate course is to focus energy, first on moral persuasion esp via Churches; 2) Challenge Roe via states that pass laws that reverse Roe; 3) elect pro-life majority in Senate and elect pro-life President that favors originalism that would ensure Roe reversal; and promote adult stem cells via their proven success.
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com and Charlotte Observer columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
Mitt Romney on Abortion - as interviewed by the late Tim Russert
izoneguy (Diary) Tuesday, October 25th at 11:22PM EDT (link)Those who had once simpered: “I don’t want to destroy the rich, I only want to seize a little of their surplus to help the poor, just a little, they’ll never miss it!” – then, later, had snapped: “The tycoons can stand being squeezed; they’ve amassed enough to last them for three generations” – then, later, had yelled: “Why should the people suffer while businessmen have reserves to last a year?” – now were screaming: “Why should we starve while some people have reserves to last a week?” – Atlas Shrugged
That's Pretty Clear
phillarsen Wednesday, October 26th at 4:06AM EDT (link)Romney is pro-life. He governed pro-life in Massachusetts. He governed more pro-life than Ronald Reagan did as governor of California.
Yes he changed his position. But so did Reagan and so did Bush 41.
Romney is the man. The more you find out about him, the more you’ll like.
PhilLarsen, please tell me that's sarcasm. [nt]
SoFiMil (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 9:09AM EDT (link)…
www.suvstrategery.blogspot.com
SoFiMil, that was not sarcasm, that was fact.
phillarsen Wednesday, October 26th at 3:18PM EDT (link)Reagan signed a bill into law expanding abortion rights. You can look it up. All Romney ever did was veto pro-choice legislation.
The Massachusetts Citizens for Life gave Romney a medal after his term as governor. You can look that up too.
Of Romney’s pro-life leadership, John J. Miller of National Review said:
“Romney has done his best to defend the culture of life on what is possibly the most inhospitable terrain in the country…a good case can be made that Romney has fought harder for social conservatives than any other governor in America, and it is difficult to imagine his doing so in a more daunting political environment.”
Conservative attorney for the Club for Growth, James Bopp Jr. said:
“Both conviction and courage are necessary for effective pro-life leadership, and Romney, in office, displayed both.”
And Kris Mineau of the Massachusetts Family Institute said Romney “has provided aggressive leadership as a positive, pro-family governor.”
Is that strong enough evidence for you?
Once you look past the liberal spin and look at the actual facts, Romney’s record actually looks pretty great.
Go to WhyRomney.com to take another look. You’ll like what you see.
Yes, Romney would support a human life amendment.
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 6:41AM EDT (link)You realize that contradicts the video you posted directly prior to this one.
Refusing to watch your own video clips before posting them sheds a little light on why you won’t reading the diary. It’s really too bad. If you decide you’d like to participate in actual discussion, I’ll be here.
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
Agreed, Ryan. But Romney would also not support it. [nt]
SoFiMil (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 7:20AM EDT (link)..
www.suvstrategery.blogspot.com
It doesn't look like you made a point.
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 10:20AM EDT (link)Other than trying to please the other Romney haters, perhaps. But that’s not going to help you in the eyes of those looking at the issue substantively.
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
It's pretty clear to me, Ryan....
acat (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 10:56AM EDT (link)Your chosen candidate Romney has a habit of trying to get on both sides of issues.
It isn’t Romney’s position on abortion or capital punishment or stem cells that’s the problem. The problem is that Romney comes off about as natural as a Blue Hawaiian.
Romney seems too focus-grouped, too engineered for the middle of the road, designed for maximum tolerance… Mitt’s views do not appear to have evolved out of his life experience, rather they come from a series of studies.
That is Mitt’s problem .. and SoFiMil tagged it rather well.
I’m still waiting, Ryan, for some feedback on why Kjellander isn’t as bad as it looks.
Mew
p.s. never tried these, don’t drink, but for completeness I need to include a recipe so …
Blue Hawaiian
1 oz light rum
1 cherry
2 oz pineapple juice
1 oz Blue Curacao liqueur
1 oz cream of coconut
1 slice pineapple
Blend light rum, blue curacao, pineapple juice, and cream of coconut with one cup ice in an electric blender at high speed. Pour contents into a highball glass. Decorate with the slice of pineapple and a cherry.
(don’t forget the little paper umbrella!)
——

Caveat Suffragator
I don't drink either
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 1:42AM EDT (link)but looks tasty.
I forgot about Kjellander, sorry. I hopefully will have a chance to look into that.
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
I'm still waiting, Ryan Larsen. Kjellander. What did Romney know, and when did he know it?
acat (Diary) Tuesday, November 1st at 12:07PM EDT (link)I’m patient.
Mew
——

Caveat Suffragator
I think Ryan ran out of excuses for Mitt...
gekster (Diary) Tuesday, November 1st at 12:14PM EDT (link)and slithered back under his whatever he was under.
And I did notice he never addressed your question.
They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.
We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway
I’ve gone from
“Hope and Change” to
“Hopeless and Changeless”
It would be nice if it was a discusion, and not spinning for Romney.
gekster (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 1:47AM EDT (link)It seams thats all you got.
They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.
We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway
I’ve gone from
“Hope and Change” to
“Hopeless and Changeless”
For it to be a discussion
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 2:14AM EDT (link)you would have to actually address the substance of what I say. But you don’t do that much.
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
Can you explain to me why Romney can't
dskinner11 (Diary) Tuesday, October 25th at 11:27PM EDT (link)stand up against Public Employee Unions. Today Romney broke my back.
I was willing to carry water for him up until he didn’t have enough of a backbone to come down hard on the side of Kasich and the people of Ohio against PEUs.
I am done with Romney. My 2008 Romney keychain, which I recently brought back out of hiding is going back in a drawer.
Hi, dskinner11 :)
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 6:45AM EDT (link)I hope you are doing well, other than the concerns you have about Mitt. I posted the following to your diary:
Have you read the bill? Or are you merely assuming it must be perfect on it’s face?
Romney has a law degree, he graduated cum laude from Harvard. He understands that well-intentioned legislation can have unintended consequences when poorly written. That’s why loop-holes exist. Romney has expressed agreement with the values behind the bill. There’s nothing to worry about.
And he explains his decision making process in his book:
“We would add data–a lot of data, so much, in fact, that I wasn’t comfortable until I had been fully immersed in it.”
Don’t read too much into what he said about the Kasich bill.
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
Tea-Party flip-flop
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 7:09AM EDT (link)Sarah Palin refused to answer many questions from media on her recent bus tour, and the Tea Party cheered her.
The question posed to Romney did not directly relate to any choice he would make as President. But he did indicate support for the principles Kasich is standing for.
What Romney actually said: “I am not speaking about the particular ballot issues. Those are up to the people of Ohio. But I certainly support the efforts of the governor to rein in the scale of government. I am not terribly familiar with the two ballot initiatives. But I am certainly supportive of the Republican Party’s efforts here.”
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
Hmm...
aesthete (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 10:41PM EDT (link)“He understands that well-intentioned legislation can have unintended consequences when poorly written.”
I guess that’s why he was so great at predicting publicly-funded abortions, and the other monstrosities which resulted from RomneyCare only a couple of years after it passed. Oh wait, he didn’t? That’s… interesting.
“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke
We've been over that
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 1:44AM EDT (link)and I address it in the diary.
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
Actually, he does support Kasich
phillarsen Wednesday, October 26th at 3:25PM EDT (link)As usual, the liberal media blew Romney’s statement out of proportion, and the Romney haters bit.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2011/10/26/romney_says_he_backs_ohio_measure_limiting_union_power___111824.html
It was a smear
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 1:59AM EDT (link)I should have known.
“What I was referring to is I know there are other ballot questions there in Ohio, and I wasn’t taking a position on those,” he said. “One of them, for instance, relates to health care and mandates. I’ve said that that should be up to individual states. I of course took my state in one direction; they may want to go in a different direction. I don’t want to tell them what I think they ought to do in that regard. That’s up to them.”
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
Yes, just vote present.
gekster (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 2:09AM EDT (link)We already got someone who does that in the WH.
We don’t need another one.
And I can’t see how telling the truth about someone is a smear.
Oh yea, if you tell the truth about Romney, it is a smear.
Sorry, I forgot.
They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.
We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway
I’ve gone from
“Hope and Change” to
“Hopeless and Changeless”
gekster,
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 2:22AM EDT (link)Romney was asked about the ballot measures and said he wouldn’t comment. He wasn’t talking about the union issue, but it was reported that way. He was talking about unrelated ballot measures.
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
Read my latest comment and say that again.
gekster (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 2:29AM EDT (link)He knew where he was at, he knew what the phone bank was doing, and he took a neutral stance.
This one you can’t spin.
They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.
We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway
I’ve gone from
“Hope and Change” to
“Hopeless and Changeless”
He took a "neutral stance" on other measures.
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 4:41AM EDT (link)There are a number of measures on the ballot, regarding a host of issues.
He wasn’t specifically asked about the measure to rollback Kasich’s bill. He was asked to give his opinion on the state ballot measures generally.
That’s why it’s a smear. Don’t contribute to it.
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
Hmmmmm, Mitt fore tells the future
izoneguy (Diary) Tuesday, October 25th at 11:30PM EDT (link)Those who had once simpered: “I don’t want to destroy the rich, I only want to seize a little of their surplus to help the poor, just a little, they’ll never miss it!” – then, later, had snapped: “The tycoons can stand being squeezed; they’ve amassed enough to last them for three generations” – then, later, had yelled: “Why should the people suffer while businessmen have reserves to last a year?” – now were screaming: “Why should we starve while some people have reserves to last a week?” – Atlas Shrugged
That was before the economic crisis.
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 8:07AM EDT (link)And the nation’s corresponding shift in focus which enabled Obama to re-neg on his promises to the left. But if Obama had kept those promises, like closing Gitmo and cutting the military, Romney’s words would have played out.
Instead, Obama went one the attack against us here at home. But Romney’s point about McCain being better than Obama still stands. Unless you disagree, um?
The problem Mitt Romney faces is that explaining conservatism to “conservatives” is not like chess. In chess, there’s an objective measure. Most folks are unable to absorb (and thus appreciate) sophisticated analysis. In chess, it doesn’t matter if others are able to see your strength. You just hit an opponent with a checkmate and others are left wondering afterwards what happened – because even though they don’t understand the nuances of “how” you did it, they can at least understand “that” you did it.
But when it comes to explaining principles, there is no clear objective standard for people to follow. Sometimes this can be overcome through sheer explanation, but too many loud, lazy voices with agendas are eager to interfere. So, Mitt is like a Kasparov with a long record of impressive wins, but his antagonists spread confusion – ie “This sixth grader has won more games than Kasparov, so he’s better than Kasparov” or “Kasparov claims to be good at chess, but he completely gave up his queen, he traded it for a pawn! He doesn’t even know that a queen is worth more than a pawn!” And people buy this stuff.
Still, Romney keeps trying to explain it to them – because he cares about our future. That’s why Romney kept hammering the social security issue. It wasn’t for cheap political points, it was because he did not want the GOP nominee to have such a liability in a general election. That’s the same reason he dropped out in 2008. The entire establishment wanted him to keep going – including Santorum, Bachmann, Rush, Levin, Hannity, you name it. He was introduced by Laura Ingraham. He could have kept going. But he knew the options were to either let McCain be the nominee, or pursue a course that could lead to a brokered convention and leave the ultimate nominee with a huge liability that would be difficult to overcome. He sacrificed his own chances for the greater good:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UG4wGwvccY4&feature=related
Notice his wife at the end. This was a difficult decision, a sincere decision. And Romney was right about his primary reason, Obama’s foreign policy. Just look at the chaos Obama has created in the Middle East. Iran is closer than ever to acquiring nuclear weapons, the Palestinians believe Obama promised them their own state, unnecessary problems with Turkey, attacked Libya, and apologized to the whole Middle East for America’s alleged crimes.
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
LOL
aesthete (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 10:45PM EDT (link)“Why don’t you dumb conservatives appreciate the stratospheric chess player genius that is Mitt Romney?”
Here’s a tip: if you want to persuade people over to their side, don’t call them dumb. Oh, you also might not want to demean their conservatism with scare quotes.
“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke
Romney is barely playing tick-tac-toe
JSobieski (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 11:17PM EDT (link)I would actually have a bit more enthusiasm (or at least respect) if I thought there was some grand plan behind the apparent issue-free Romney candidacy.
We have the worst economy the country has experienced in my lifetime, and Romney’s economic plan would make Bob Dole look revolutionary.
Romney is trying to run the most substance free campaign since another former Mass. governor ran for the presidency as a technocrat of great competence.
One can say that Romney should be graded on a curve given the deep blue of his state. However, there is nothing Romney is saying, running on, etc. that suggests there is some great conservative leadership is waiting to come bursting out.
Romney may have been the best we could have had in 2008, but he is far less than we deserve in 2012. If Romney wins the nomination, this country will deserve the ongoing stagnation that results.
Romney will pull a Clinton and triangulate with a Republican Congress–mark my words. No person would be better situated to discredit conservatism than Romney in the WH with R control of both houses. It would make W look like a libertarian.
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
I completely agree
aesthete (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 11:39PM EDT (link)and unlike Clinton, there won’t be a loyal opposition that will fight him tooth and nail: Democrats will work with Romney to expand government, and established K Streeters will abandon the Tea Party more quickly than they sopped up to it.
“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke
Saying Romney doesn't take positions
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 2:27AM EDT (link)doesn’t make it so. You don’t have to back up your claim, but if you choose not to then it won’t have any credibility.
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
Romneys claims and positions are putting a finger to the wind.
gekster (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 2:34AM EDT (link)Just like Bill Clinton.
It worked for one Democrat, it will work for another
They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.
We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway
I’ve gone from
“Hope and Change” to
“Hopeless and Changeless”
That's a conclusion
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 6:30AM EDT (link)not an argument.
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
Fact: The only bold Romney economic proposal is a trade war with China
JSobieski (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 8:01AM EDT (link)Cain proposes 999
Perry proposes a flat tax and medicare reform
Huntsman proposes a reform similar in spirit to 1986
Romney? Eliminating capital gains taxes on those earning less than $250k and starting a trade war with China.
Romney’s 59 point economic plan is very very tepid for the first presidential election of the tea party era.
His proposals are far weaker than any other candidate proposal, although I admit some candidates don’t have any proposals.
You can blame 75% of the Republican electorate if you want to, but Romney is providing little incentive for conservatives to vote for him.
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
What specific Romney proposal do you find to be bold and conservative?
JSobieski (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 8:12AM EDT (link)Identify the three most “impressive” of the 59. Sell me, but sell me in a way that doesn’t involve “eat this crap, and be happy because Romney is a chess player”
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
It's all Mitt's fault - I am out you all......
izoneguy (Diary) Tuesday, October 25th at 11:32PM EDT (link)Those who had once simpered: “I don’t want to destroy the rich, I only want to seize a little of their surplus to help the poor, just a little, they’ll never miss it!” – then, later, had snapped: “The tycoons can stand being squeezed; they’ve amassed enough to last them for three generations” – then, later, had yelled: “Why should the people suffer while businessmen have reserves to last a year?” – now were screaming: “Why should we starve while some people have reserves to last a week?” – Atlas Shrugged
izoneguy,
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 7:56AM EDT (link)It’s natural for you to be frustrated since the facts aren’t on your side. But posting spam is usually taken as a sign of weakness. You might want to avoid doing it in the future.
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
Ryan your whole diary was spam
izoneguy (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 9:34AM EDT (link)I read all your posts when I showed that Romney was a liar
with his hit website on Perry.
I don’t know how much Romney pays you but I can tell you
that I support Perry and have given much to his campaign.
We already have one liar in the White House, Romney
is a weasel and a liar and as Rick Perry says:
We don’t need Obama Light.
Those who had once simpered: “I don’t want to destroy the rich, I only want to seize a little of their surplus to help the poor, just a little, they’ll never miss it!” – then, later, had snapped: “The tycoons can stand being squeezed; they’ve amassed enough to last them for three generations” – then, later, had yelled: “Why should the people suffer while businessmen have reserves to last a year?” – now were screaming: “Why should we starve while some people have reserves to last a week?” – Atlas Shrugged
So, you gave all that money to Perry's campaign.
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 9:54AM EDT (link)Maybe that’s why you’re upset that Perry has turned out to be so dishonest. Unless it doesn’t bother you that he’s dishonest.
You don’t seem to have anything substantive to say. Maybe if you relax and give it a little thought you’ll come up with something.
I can wait. I’m very patient.
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
So, you write all this gibberish for the Romney campaign.
izoneguy (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 10:02AM EDT (link)Maybe that’s why you’re upset that Romney is so dishonest.
Unless it doesn’t bother you that he’s dishonest.
You don’t seem to have anything substantive to say.
Maybe if you relax and give it a little thought you’ll come up with something.
I can wait. I’m very patient.
Those who had once simpered: “I don’t want to destroy the rich, I only want to seize a little of their surplus to help the poor, just a little, they’ll never miss it!” – then, later, had snapped: “The tycoons can stand being squeezed; they’ve amassed enough to last them for three generations” – then, later, had yelled: “Why should the people suffer while businessmen have reserves to last a year?” – now were screaming: “Why should we starve while some people have reserves to last a week?” – Atlas Shrugged
I see you're still upset.
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 2:32AM EDT (link)Take your time. I know you’ll come up with something.
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
He's not upset, asked a question you can't answer.
gekster (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 2:39AM EDT (link)and reading upthread, you say Perry is dishonest.
You said:
Maybe that’s why you’re upset that Perry has turned out to be so dishonest. Unless it doesn’t bother you that he’s dishonest.
I asked you why you think that previously, and you chose not to respond to that one.
How is Perry dihonest.
They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.
We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway
I’ve gone from
“Hope and Change” to
“Hopeless and Changeless”
I told you.
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 6:34AM EDT (link)Read the diary again. You may have missed it the first time, somehow, despite the five videos.
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
Romney dishonest
bzip Wednesday, October 26th at 10:08AM EDT (link)It appears based on your posting history you are a Romney guy, that explains your lack of truth here. I can forgive you, too bad your guy Romney is the biggest flip-flopper around.
I think there is ample evidence to accurately label Larsen as a Romney-bot.
westcoastpatriette (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 10:24AM EDT (link)And your tactics, Larsen, are getting old fast.
You insult the intelligence of the posters here and your constant condescension is really irritating. You are doing Romney a disservice and you have clearly lost respect of most of the commenters here.
Praise ye the Lord. Sing unto the Lord a new song, and his praise in the congregation of saints. Let Israel rejoice in him that made him: Let the children of Zion be joyful in their King. Let them praise His name in the dance: let them sing praises unto Him with the timbrel and harp. Psalm 149:1-3
I think there's a difference, 'patriette.
acat (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 10:58AM EDT (link)Ryan mentioned, at one point, that he’s associated with a pro-Romney web site.
I am under the impression that Ryan is not a Romney-bot .. rather, he’s an employee or subcontractor to the Romney campaign.
This is an entirely different category.
Mew
——

Caveat Suffragator
Even more insidious, would you say, kitty? nt
westcoastpatriette (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 11:03AM EDT (link)…
Praise ye the Lord. Sing unto the Lord a new song, and his praise in the congregation of saints. Let Israel rejoice in him that made him: Let the children of Zion be joyful in their King. Let them praise His name in the dance: let them sing praises unto Him with the timbrel and harp. Psalm 149:1-3
Actually .. more useful, 'patriette.
acat (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 11:20AM EDT (link)We’re the ones the Romney team has to convince to “come on board”… conservatives who don’t like Waffles – not because he’s a mormon but because he’s not a conservative – so we’re watching and participating in the field testing of Romney’s conservative outreach trial balloons.
My hope is that Ryan is reporting back that conservatives are not buying it…. since that sure seems to be the case.
Mew
——

Caveat Suffragator
But don't you think, 'cat, that in terms of hidden motives and integrity,
westcoastpatriette (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 11:25AM EDT (link)a paid mole is more insidious than an immature ‘bot?
Praise ye the Lord. Sing unto the Lord a new song, and his praise in the congregation of saints. Let Israel rejoice in him that made him: Let the children of Zion be joyful in their King. Let them praise His name in the dance: let them sing praises unto Him with the timbrel and harp. Psalm 149:1-3
Tentative agreement, 'patriette.
acat (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 11:31AM EDT (link)Surely, Ryan has better debating skills than the average candi-bot – and hopefully is making good money for them. He’s more effective as well, the average candi-bot can’t argue persuasively.
So .. yes, more dangerous perhaps, especially if his status remains unclear.
Mew
——

Caveat Suffragator
Stop Smearing Ryan.
phillarsen Wednesday, October 26th at 3:30PM EDT (link)I know him pretty well and he’s not on any candidate’s payroll. He’s just very knowledgeable and passionate about Romney.
I do find it telling that you jumped to false conclusions about him just as you did about Romney.
phillarsen
streiff (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 3:33PM EDT (link)a word of advice. Calling this crap what it is — to wit, crap — isn’t “smearing” anyone. It is calling it crap.
I don’t care how well you know Ryan, that isn’t really material to the discussion.
Don’t do it again.
“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”
I don't know what you're talking about.
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 2:42AM EDT (link)streiff says, “Calling this crap what it is — to wit, crap — isn’t “smearing” anyone. It is calling it crap.”
They were talking about whether I worked for the campaign. And I don’t.
streiff says, “I don’t care how well you know Ryan, that isn’t really material to the discussion … Don’t do it again.”
What are you talking about? Are you saying that how well he knows me is not material to a discussion about where I work?
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
Thank you for clearing that up, Ryan.
acat (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 3:54AM EDT (link)Technically, though – and this matters about as much as who hired Romney’s gardners – I said that I believed you were associated with, a subcontractor to, or an employee of the campaign.
In the interest of splitting hairs completely, please go ahead and confirm that you are not associated with (i.e. that there is no contact or coordination between you or the pro-Romney web site you’re here representing – including coordination via third party – and the Romney campaign) and not a subcontractor to the Romney campaign.
Thank you for clearing that up.
Mew
——

Caveat Suffragator
WhyRomney.com
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 6:48AM EDT (link)is the name of the Romney-related site I co-founded. The website is not endorsed by Romney’s campaign, either officially or unofficially.
I’m interested in truth. That’s why I wrote for lyingliar.com where I exposed smears against Rush, Coulter, Hannity, O’Reilly and others. I don’t get paid to expose smears, I do it in my spare time when I feel like it. Do a search for: Rush Chelsea and a piece I wrote defending Rush comes up. Search for Al Franken, and lyingliar.com is on the first page of google results. I’ve been happy to have reached so many people with the truth about the smears against those good people.
And frankly, I had hoped RedState posters would be more intellectually curious. I might leave RedState soon.
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
Mitt's flips (and flops)...
SoFiMil (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 7:10AM EDT (link)NT
www.suvstrategery.blogspot.com
Also, I have a question.
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 2:50AM EDT (link)Does it bother you streiff, that Rick Perry smears Romney? As explained at the top of the diary.
Just a yes or no is fine, unless you’re interested in more extensive discussion.
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
Ryan - who hired the gardeners?
acat (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 3:23AM EDT (link)More importantly, does it bother you that the reason Romney gave for not wanting illegals had nothing to do with national security, economic security (stealing jobs) or creating an under-class .. but because he (Romney) was running for office?
Mew
——

Caveat Suffragator
I can't have illegals working for me. I'm running for President.
gekster (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 3:37AM EDT (link)He will spin it.
He is one of the best spinmiesters I’ve seen.
They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.
We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway
I’ve gone from
“Hope and Change” to
“Hopeless and Changeless”
How do you spin something like that, gekster?
acat (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 3:58AM EDT (link)Had Mitt stopped after “I can’t have illegals working for me.”, it would have been fine. That could be spun as “I have a moral objection to rewarding criminals” or “I object on national security grounds” or .. something.
Mitt stuck his wing tip all the way between his perfect teeth, though, when he followed up with “I’m running for President”. This makes it all about him.
I’ll admit, I’m curious to see what Ryan does with this.
Mew
——

Caveat Suffragator
I don't know, but...
gekster (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 4:08AM EDT (link)I am sure Ryan will say something like….
They are that way cause the sun was shining alot.
They don’t work on rainy days, do they.
We were having a Spanish speaking day every day on the lawn.
I thought they were Samoan, and Samoans arn’t illegal.
Or… I could go on, but expect a spin.
They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.
We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway
I’ve gone from
“Hope and Change” to
“Hopeless and Changeless”
So What?
phillarsen Thursday, October 27th at 8:29AM EDT (link)Even if Romney is a self-absorbed jerk who does things for appearance, it still wouldn’t change the fact that he had an outstanding immigration record as governor of Massachusetts. Everybody from Bill O’Reilly to Sherif Joe Arpaio to Tom Tancredo acknowledges this.
As far as his “I’m running for office for Pete’s sake” line, I think the point he was trying to make was:
“Look, why would I purposely hire an illegal immigrant while I’m running for office? Even if I am a total a-hole who doesn’t care about anything but myself, I’d have to be a complete idiot to do that!”
I personally don’t think Romney is a jerk, but even if you chose to believe he is one, it still doesn’t change the fact that he has an outstanding record as governor.
O'Reilly and Tancredo and Arpaio, phillarsen? Oh, my.
acat (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 3:29PM EDT (link)Three guys who either make their living or enhance their rep by sloganeering and bloviating, but whose real-world impact is .. not detectable.
And they back Romney.
Pardon me if I’m not impressed.
I don’t think Romney is a jerk; for all I know he’s a good husband, father, provider, employee, manager, and churchgoer. He’s a poster-boy for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. (although .. putting the dog on the roof does give me pause)
I do think Romney has demonstrated a disturbing incuriousness, and that his attempts to take both sides of issues that blindside him may work well in business, but not in politics where they appear as either waffling or uncertainty.
I’ve asked Ryan repeatedly for some feedback on another instance where Romney demonstrated this habit, and as yet have not heard back. It’s an issue that, to this cat, looks ready to bean Mitt right between the eyes in the general. So far, Ryan has not come up with anything but promises to look into it.
Mew
——

Caveat Suffragator
Well .. {guano}
acat (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 3:38PM EDT (link)All those bytes wasted, talking at a ghost.
Mew
——

Caveat Suffragator
the illegals issue
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 7:41AM EDT (link)acat,
Here’s the answer to your question, in context of the background.
In June of 2006, a number of illegals were found to be working for contractors hired by the government of Massachusetts. When Romney found out, he sent a request to the federal government for permission to tell state agents to enforce federal immigration laws – since the laws in Massachusetts were insufficient and the attorney general was not cooperative. Romney ended up waiting 6 months to hear back from the feds, which Romney’s critics distort by saying Romney didn’t tell state troopers to act until a few weeks before he left office.
After Romney sent the request in June, local liberal papers gave him bad press about it. Then the Boston Globe sent reporters to dig up dirt and the reporters found out that the lawn care agency Romney hired had employed three illegal immigrants over a ten year span. The reporters tracked down the illegal immigrants who confirmed they had sometimes worked on Romney’s lawn. The Globe wrote a big story about it, which it published in December ’06 to embarrass Mitt as he was exploring a Presidential run.
So, it was clear his antagonists in the media were trying to use it against him as a political issue. It is in that context at that time that he had the heart-to-heart with the owner of the lawn care agency. The illegal employees were no longer working there, and the issue was whether or not Romney would give him a second chance. Romney wanted to give him a second chance because he believed it was a mistake and that the man would use stricter procedures in the future. But Romney wanted to make it clear that if the media was already using it against him politically, they would really try to exploit the issue if it happened again. That’s where you get the line, “I’m running for office, for Pete’s sake.”
So it wasn’t a matter of, “I’m getting rid of the illegals because I’m running for office,” it was instead a matter of, “I’m giving you a second chance in spite of the fact that I’m running for office, so please do not screw up.”
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
As I understand it, Ryan .. they did, in fact, screw up the second chance.
acat (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 3:36PM EDT (link)Further, as of 2006 E-Verify was available in pilot form, and as governor, Romney could have issued an executive order requiring its’ use, no?
I’m holding in my paw an advertisement – sort of a giant post-it note – from a local lawn care company. In the bottom right corner, under Weekly Lawn Mowing, Aeration, and Mulch, it indicates All Legal U.S. Citizens. In order to say that, they must be doing background checks, otherwise it’s false advertising, and there are existing and effective remedies for such things.
Seems to me that, at the very least, knowing the press were hunting for this issue, knowing it could hurt his aspirations, that a well-respected and potentially presidential guy could have gotten his landscaping friend a number to call to verify that his crew was 100% U.S. approved.
That he did not take this step, as demonstrated by the secondary failure of the landscaping firm, seems .. odd.
Mew
——

Caveat Suffragator
He did.
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 8:37PM EDT (link)He told the owner of the agency to follow certain hiring procedures. The guy ended up either not following them or one illegal slipped through the cracks.
It was only one illegal the second time.
In any event, this is supposed to be about Romney’s comment about running for President. I answered that. Although I don’t know if you read it. I get the feeling you’re the only one who reads what I write around here. I appreciate that, but it seems like even you just skim things sometimes. That hurts discussions.
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
Streiff - Then don't smear him again
phillarsen Thursday, October 27th at 8:47AM EDT (link)Resorting to personal attacks against Ryan is weak and wrong. I don’t attack your motives or your integrity and as far as I can tell, Ryan hasn’t either.
Also, calling Romney’s conservative record crap doesn’t make it so.
What do you have against someone who balanced the budget, cut taxes, cut spending, cut the size of government, governed pro-life and pro-family, had an outstanding record on immigration and education, saved a failing Olympics, and created tens of thousands of jobs in the private sector?
Romney’s the real deal. Don’t resort to tearing down the messenger just because he’s presenting facts to you that go against the false narrative you’re still clinging to.
let me spell this out for you
streiff (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 9:16AM EDT (link)This diary is the most shamelessly dishonest diary I have encountered in my 7 and a half years on RedState. It is false in virtually every generality and particular and the immoral way it is being defended by you and your buttboy, or Ryan and his buttboy as the case may be, is offensive. The fact this diary has 150 comments, at this writing, and only one “recommend” should indicate to both of you that no one is taking you seriously.
Unable to defend your position you both resort to calling any criticism a smear.
Six months ago, when we banned for blatant misrepresentation of facts, I would have banned both of you clowns by now. This, however, is the era of a kinder, gentler moderation policy.
The policy is not without its logical limits. For you phillarsen, for making me throw up in my mouth, I award this ban. Congratulations. You should be proud of yourself.
If you wish to be reinstated you may do so by hitting the “contact” button and then posting an apology for your douchebaggery in this space. Ask your buddy Ryan how to find the “contact” button if you don’t know how. You can even resend his complaint about me if need be.
“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”
Arguing well is easy
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 2:46AM EDT (link)when you’re right and you understand why you’re right.
Getting other people to discuss the issues substantively, that’s a different matter.
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
westcoastpatriette, you may not realize this
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 7:59AM EDT (link)but I have feelings. And I’m doing the best I can.
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
Ok, what has Perry lied about.
gekster (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 10:11AM EDT (link)Whats ya got.
They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.
We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway
I’ve gone from
“Hope and Change” to
“Hopeless and Changeless”
Did you read it or not?
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 2:44AM EDT (link)It’s covered in the diary.
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
Refresh my memory. What did Perry lie about.
gekster (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 2:50AM EDT (link)Don’t you know what you wrote.
They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.
We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway
I’ve gone from
“Hope and Change” to
“Hopeless and Changeless”
It's in the top section of the diary.
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 3:00AM EDT (link)Look for the videos.
I don’t want to repost the diary in the comments to the diary.
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
soyou can't recall off the top of your head what you wrote.
gekster (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 3:13AM EDT (link)I don’t have to look.
I read it.
It is about you slamming Perry because he called Romney out on his hiring a company that employed illegal aliens.
What did Perry lie about.
That Romney didn’t know that the workers, who had a tan that would take a month in a tanning booth to get were illegal.
If Romney is that incompetent that he would not notice that,
then I don’t think he would be good as comander in chief.
But if he didn’t notice, or was willfully ignotant of it, it shows a lack of characture you can’t spin away.
They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.
We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway
I’ve gone from
“Hope and Change” to
“Hopeless and Changeless”
I said videos.
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 8:04AM EDT (link)The illegal immigration issue is secondary. But I disagree with your analysis, I don’t think you can tell whether someone is legal by their skin color. I know many good people here legally who are of Mexican descent. At the same time, Romney was governing the state and wasn’t home watching the lawn care agency all day
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
Here is another Romney smear.
gekster (Diary) Tuesday, October 25th at 11:49PM EDT (link)Oh, wait, it’s Romney in his own words.
I guess it is still a smear.
They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.
We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway
I’ve gone from
“Hope and Change” to
“Hopeless and Changeless”
Anything about Romney that seems like a smear
heraklios Tuesday, October 25th at 11:52PM EDT (link)probably isn’t because it’s likely true. I’ll bet Obama’s team is praying for Romney’s nomination because they have to playbook written to eviscerate him long before election day.
Romney has been smeared
phillarsen Wednesday, October 26th at 3:07AM EDT (link)You can’t just say that a smear is likely true. You need to back your claim up with a few facts (just one would be a nice start)
The fact is, Romney has been smeared. Tea Party favorite Christine O’Donnell basically said as much:
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2011/10/tea-party-activist-christine-odonnell-donates-to-romney-says-movement-isnt-being-fair-to-him/
Romney’s the real deal. Please take a moment to look at the real facts.
Go to WhyRomney.com to see just how badly Romney’s been smeared.
Christine O'Donnell is a Romney supporter?
aesthete (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 10:48PM EDT (link)Huh, maybe she *is* a witch.
“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke
A witch? Really?
reggie182 Wednesday, October 26th at 11:27PM EDT (link)You know I am beginning to think that Rick Perry isn’t polling in FIFTH place and with 6% support simply because of his perceived failings as a candidate.
No, I’m beginning to think his supporters might be a contributing factor. I remember taking issue with Sarah Palin in certain respects, and instead of receiving a reasonable retort it was pure emotion I got back. If I didn’t express indiluted praise for everything she did and stood for I was scum as far as her devotees were concerned.
Seems I’m beginning to see the same phenomenan developing with certain supporters of Perry. Not all I have to say, but there are those that are gripping the kool-aid cup with a mighty firm grasp.
Sorry you feel that way
aesthete (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 11:46PM EDT (link)about a comment which was, quite obviously, intended in jest about one of the worst candidates and worst political ads we’ve seen in decades (if you haven’t seen it, it’s available for viewing here). I’m not really much of a Perry supporter; at best, Perry is the guy left in the running who least disappoints me. Don’t go abandoning Perry or attacking his supporters on account of anything that I say.
“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke
It's all good aesthete
reggie182 Thursday, October 27th at 12:07AM EDT (link)No worries. I agree she was not a good candidate and made some rookie mistakes. It was CT and we should have gone with the establishment candidate (best you can do in CT).
I’m sure you agree though she is a very sweet and nice person. What was done to her in that campaign was despicable. I wish her the best.
I agree
phillarsen Thursday, October 27th at 8:57AM EDT (link)She was totally smeared. What was done to her was despicable. Again, I believe that’s why she’s sympathetic towards Romney. She knows his actual record and understands how badly it’s being misrepresented.
Aesthete - wow.
phillarsen Thursday, October 27th at 8:52AM EDT (link)Christine O’Donnell defends Romney and all you can do is smear her some more?
That’s probably why she’s sympathetic to Romney: she also knows what it’s like to be smeared herself.
Oh, save your OutrageousOutrage™
aesthete (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 2:42PM EDT (link)for someone who deserves it. O’Donnell was a nice person, sure, and she got hit with a lot of garbage — but she was nonetheless not a serious or competent person for office. Of course, that applies to most CongressCritters, but there ya go. The memes and jokes that her candidacy inspired were pretty darned funny, and I don’t apologize for my admittedly smart-mouthed comment.
“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke
Don't Let the Liberal Media Fool You
phillarsen Wednesday, October 26th at 3:28AM EDT (link)Romney is a conservative and he governed as a conservative (See my post below).
Seriously? Taking a clip from 1994 where Romney says he was an independent during Reagan-Bush?
When Bush Sr. ran in 1988 Marco Rubio wasn’t even old enough to vote. Speaking of 1988 (since we’re going back to Reagan-Bush) Rick Perry was a campaign manager for that well known staunch conservative Al Gore.
Give me a break.
Taking quotes out of context and stringing them together is the kind of thing I’d expect from Jon Stewart or Steve Colbert. Not from a true conservative looking to have an intellectually honest debate.
I doubt youtube is the liberal media.
gekster (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 8:02AM EDT (link)This goes to show that Romney will say what he thinks he has to,
to get elected.
He had to talk left to get elected in MA, and is now talking right to try and get elected Prez.
Don’t you love a man who stands on principles to get elected.
If you do, it ain’t Romney.
They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.
We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway
I’ve gone from
“Hope and Change” to
“Hopeless and Changeless”
The Liberal Media Circulates YouTube Stuff Pretty Well
phillarsen Wednesday, October 26th at 3:36PM EDT (link)Look at how well they circulated “Maccaca”.
Still, you have not shown any facts to back up your argument. Nor have you refuted any of my facts I’ve used in the defense of Romney.
Romney governed conservatively in a liberal state and he’d do even better in Washington.
Do a search on Obama on youtube.
gekster (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 4:33PM EDT (link)They are biting thier own, if they are liberal.
And you can’t show where Romney ever acted like a conservative,
except for convenience.
Funny how running against Ted he was more liberal, but now against conservatives he has seen the light and is now himself a conservative.
That’ a guy with real backbone right there I tell ya.
Nitice how he held no position on the Ohio union law until the backlash, and then all of a sudden supports it because of all the negative press about it.
Geeze, I wonder why.
They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.
We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway
I’ve gone from
“Hope and Change” to
“Hopeless and Changeless”
Look at the actual facts - Romney is conservative
phillarsen Wednesday, October 26th at 2:58AM EDT (link)Romney governed Massachusetts as a conservative. NOT a moderate. Here’s the facts:
Romney vetoed every single pro-abortion bill that came across his desk as governor. He actually got a medal from the Massachusetts Citizens for Life at the end of his term.
Romney fought against embryonic stem cell cloning.
Romney fought for an amendment to negate the Supreme Court ruling in favor of gay marriage.
Romney vetoed in state tuition for illegals.
Romney deputized State Troopers to enforce immigration laws.
Romney fought for English immersion in schools.
Romney pulled out of the RGGI, a proposed cap and trade deal for Massachusetts and neighboring states, because it imposed too strict of penalties on businesses (That’s right, Romney OPPOSED cap and trade in Massachusetts).
Romney signed legislation expanding gun rights.
Romney lowered taxes.
Romney never raised taxes.
A representative of the Massachusetts Taxpayers Association said “we couldn’t be happier with him.”
Romney cut spending by hundreds of millions of dollars.
Romney eliminated and consolidated state agencies.
Romney decreased the number of state employees.
Romney erased a $3 billion deficit his first year as governor.
Romney balanced the state budget all 4 years of his term and put over a billion dollars into the state’s rainy day fund.
Conservatives: What more do you want in a candidate? Seriously?
Rather than look at a Rick Perry smear ad or a youtube video from a 1994 debate with Ted Kennedy – or any other video out there that’s heavily spliced and takes Romney’s comments wildly out of context – Look at the actual facts.
This guy is impressive.
good post :)
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 8:25AM EDT (link)no text
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
MA State Treasurer Tim Cahill describes Romneycare disaster in Massachusetts
izoneguy (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 9:38AM EDT (link)Those who had once simpered: “I don’t want to destroy the rich, I only want to seize a little of their surplus to help the poor, just a little, they’ll never miss it!” – then, later, had snapped: “The tycoons can stand being squeezed; they’ve amassed enough to last them for three generations” – then, later, had yelled: “Why should the people suffer while businessmen have reserves to last a year?” – now were screaming: “Why should we starve while some people have reserves to last a week?” – Atlas Shrugged
I’m one of the many Republicans who cringe at the thought of spending 2012 defending RomneyCare
izoneguy (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 9:41AM EDT (link)I’m one of the many Republicans who cringe at the thought of spending 2012 defending RomneyCare
Those who had once simpered: “I don’t want to destroy the rich, I only want to seize a little of their surplus to help the poor, just a little, they’ll never miss it!” – then, later, had snapped: “The tycoons can stand being squeezed; they’ve amassed enough to last them for three generations” – then, later, had yelled: “Why should the people suffer while businessmen have reserves to last a year?” – now were screaming: “Why should we starve while some people have reserves to last a week?” – Atlas Shrugged
Then don't defend it
phillarsen Wednesday, October 26th at 3:40PM EDT (link)Defend instead Romney’s other accomplishments. From my post above:
Romney vetoed every single pro-abortion bill that came across his desk as governor. He actually got a medal from the Massachusetts Citizens for Life at the end of his term.
Romney fought against embryonic stem cell cloning.
Romney fought for an amendment to negate the Supreme Court ruling in favor of gay marriage.
Romney vetoed in state tuition for illegals.
Romney deputized State Troopers to enforce immigration laws.
Romney fought for English immersion in schools.
Romney pulled out of the RGGI, a proposed cap and trade deal for Massachusetts and neighboring states, because it imposed too strict of penalties on businesses (That’s right, Romney OPPOSED cap and trade in Massachusetts).
Romney signed legislation expanding gun rights.
Romney lowered taxes.
Romney never raised taxes.
A representative of the Massachusetts Taxpayers Association said “we couldn’t be happier with him.”
Romney cut spending by hundreds of millions of dollars.
Romney eliminated and consolidated state agencies.
Romney decreased the number of state employees.
Romney erased a $3 billion deficit his first year as governor.
Romney balanced the state budget all 4 years of his term and put over a billion dollars into the state’s rainy day fund.
We dealt with health care in part I
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 9:47AM EDT (link)which you learned when you read the above diary.
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
Romney gets an unjustified bad rap ...
Martin Knight (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 6:28AM EDT (link)He actually governed to the Right of his campaign for Governor and all the evidence points to him being a profoundly decent and honorable man. I simply don’t get the hideous amount of vitriol he’s been showered with here.
The fact of the matter is that I found Perry’s attack on Romney during the debate to be a disturbing cheap shot. When the Boston Globe wrote that hit piece about Romney’s landscaping company hiring illegal aliens, it was roundly denounced all over the Right as the cheap shot it was – how can anyone be expected to demand the immigration papers of every employee of every company they hire to do some work for them at their home?
That said, Romney is way too much of a political opportunist. His chickening out on the union issue in Ohio reminded me of Charlie Crist and firmly put him on my “No” list.
Like I told dskinner11:
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 8:22AM EDT (link)Sarah Palin refused to answer many questions from media on her recent bus tour, and the Tea Party cheered her.
The Tea Party flip-flopped on the MSM issue.
The question posed to Romney did not directly relate to any choice he would make as President. But he did indicate support for the principles Kasich is standing for.
What Romney actually said: “I am not speaking about the particular ballot issues. Those are up to the people of Ohio. But I certainly support the efforts of the governor to rein in the scale of government. I am not terribly familiar with the two ballot initiatives. But I am certainly supportive of the Republican Party’s efforts here.”
Romney has a law degree, he graduated cum laude from Harvard. He understands that well-intentioned legislation can have unintended consequences when poorly written. That’s why loop-holes exist. Romney has expressed agreement with the values behind the bill. There’s nothing to worry about.
And he explains his decision making process in his book:
“We would add data–a lot of data, so much, in fact, that I wasn’t comfortable until I had been fully immersed in it.”
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
Gamecock trusts Mitt's pro-life epiphany. Too bad he had no anti-RomneyCare epiphany
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 10:02AM EDT (link)I’m not happy with the way Mitt and Rick have gone after each other’s records and thought Rick’s attack on Romney’s 2005 landscaper was below the belt. I also think that the quotes from Mitt from many years ago, before his conservative evolution are not very informative. I leaned to Mitt in 2007-8 until Fred dropped out and then leaned to Mitt again. This was before RomneyCare proved to be a failure.
Perry has a long record of conservative governance. Mitt’s record is mixed and so the burden is on Mitt to convince me that he will pursue conservative policies by making promises now. After 6 debates, I continue to wait. Mitt is good on many issues, but too vague on most and his clinging to RomneyCare’s supposed positives while bemoaning its bad parts is not convincing especially when the GOP nominee needs to be able to oppose ObamaCare utterly.
Mitt has major flaws as a conservative candidate in this cycle. But I do trust him on abortion, judges etc.
more later
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com and Charlotte Observer columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
Martin Knight - Romney didn't chicken out
phillarsen Wednesday, October 26th at 3:50PM EDT (link)He thought he was being asked about all the ballot measures, more than just the union issue:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2011/10/26/romney_says_he_backs_ohio_measure_limiting_union_power___111824.html
Think about it, if he was an opportunist, why would he waste time and political capital to take a hard stance in favor of the issue all summer, show up to a rally one day and not take a stance, then take a hard stance the very next day?
Look at what Romney actually said in Ohio. He said he supports Gov. Kasich’s efforts.
I think a better explanation is that CNN spun it (as the liberal media does) because that’s what they do.
Hence, I’m here defending Romney.
GWB was also a "profoundly decent and honorable man"
JSobieski (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 8:23AM EDT (link)I agree that immigration is a faux issue with respect to Romney. Why pick on things that are based on conjecture when we there are so many things to pick on based on what he actually says and does.
It is his purposeful lack of boldness that puts him on my “I really would rather not have to vote for Romney in November 2012″ list. Is Romney conveying that he would like to fundamentallly bring back limited government? What are his specifics for doing so?
The country is more primed at any time since 1980 for a conservative presidential vote, and we have a front runner whose proposals are tepid at best.
Are his proposals more specific than Bachmann’s (who hasn’t put anything out that I can see)? Sure, but that is a low low standard in my book. I can identify weaknesses in Cain 999 or Perry 20, but what they are showing is a desire to implement substantial conservative change. Heck, Huntsman economic plan appears to be far more conservative than anything else about the Huntsman campaign.
Romney’s best move at this point would be to adopt the Huntsman economic plan. Then at least I would have something to look forward to in a Romney presidency besides the fact that Romney wasn’t Obama.
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
What about the post CNN debate ad that was pulled?
SoFiMil (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 7:31AM EDT (link)Sure is honest to give the false impression that Perry said things he didn’t say in the game-changing CNN debate #2.
www.suvstrategery.blogspot.com
CNN requested the ad be pulled
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 8:24AM EDT (link)because they didn’t want footage of their news team used in a campaign ad.
What in the ad do you maintain is dishonest?
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
Wow!
SoFiMil (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 8:30AM EDT (link)First, a sincere thanks for the follow up re the add. I did not know this. However, this does not reflect well on Romney. I had given him kudos for recognizing the error of his ways and pulling the misleading ad. As for what was misleading? I’m just shaking my head in bewilderment. I believe your question is sincere, and that your are just blind to what transpired.
www.suvstrategery.blogspot.com
Story of the pulled add.
gekster (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 8:48AM EDT (link)The Romney camp was being misleading, and got called on it.
from:
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/cnn-confirms-they-asked-mitt-romneys-campaign-to-pull-anti-rick-perry-ad/
excerpt.
Fortunately for political admen, this doesn’t apply to CNN debate clips. The network has been clear that CNN will be liberal about use of footage from the debates themselves.
[The objection arose from the ad’s use of clips from other CNN programming.]
CNN contributor Erick Erickson, who was featured in the ad, pointed out that “The timeline on the comments in the video is grossly distorted,” and didn’t seem all that happy to be the star of a Romney campaign ad. The Romney campaign also made an unwitting star of Fox News Senior White House correspondent Ed Henry last week, including him in an ad aimed at President Obama.
brackets mine.
They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.
We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway
I’ve gone from
“Hope and Change” to
“Hopeless and Changeless”
And what was dishonest about the ad?
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 9:40AM EDT (link)i.e. why was the timeline relevant, what false claims were made etc.
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
I seen the add, and it implied it was from the latest debate.
gekster (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 9:52AM EDT (link)Not a chopped up montage that you your self have complained about w/r to some anti Romney adds.
Your constant excusing of Romney is getting lame.
And think about it.
You have to make excuses for Romney.
If that doesn’t tell you about him, I don’t know what will.
Driving with eyes closed is not good.
I can only imagine that you are being paid to shill for him,
which is all you’ve been doing since you got here.
They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.
We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway
I’ve gone from
“Hope and Change” to
“Hopeless and Changeless”
Okay, Ryan (ben) Phil, I no longer take you as an ignorant-bot.
SoFiMil (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 9:53AM EDT (link)Class clown, maybe.
www.suvstrategery.blogspot.com
Kowalski
SoFiMil (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 10:01AM EDT (link)Either that, or a very very clever Troller for Perry.
www.suvstrategery.blogspot.com
I hope Romney is paying you by the word.
Tbone (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 9:38AM EDT (link)Otherwise, you are wasting a lot of your time apologizing for a flipflopping RiNO.
Envisioning when all that is Left is the Right.
Amen, Tbone. nt
westcoastpatriette (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 9:43AM EDT (link).
Praise ye the Lord. Sing unto the Lord a new song, and his praise in the congregation of saints. Let Israel rejoice in him that made him: Let the children of Zion be joyful in their King. Let them praise His name in the dance: let them sing praises unto Him with the timbrel and harp. Psalm 149:1-3
yes Tbone, the continued defense of RomneyCare is what bothers me most. Romney is driving this rooster further away. I now lean to
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 10:07AM EDT (link)Cain, Perry, Bachmann and Romney in that order. Mitt had been in 2nd place a few weeks ago in the DeVine-Gamecock lean-to-stakes.
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com and Charlotte Observer columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
Why is Bachmann still on your list?
papabear (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 3:26PM EDT (link)I’m genuinely curious.
(I am not trying to poison the waters, so I will not get into why she dropped off my list)
Only interested in facts
phillarsen Wednesday, October 26th at 3:54PM EDT (link)I’m not accusing you of getting paid by George Sorros to smear Romney, why are you accusing people who actually look at the facts as being paid by Romney?
Please just look at the facts.
talking about Romney's record isn' t a 'smear'
streiff (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 4:01PM EDT (link)in most circles it is called the “truth”.
“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”
If the Romney campaign was smart they'd pay the Larsen twins *not* to blog.
SoFiMil (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 9:06AM EDT (link)You’re definitely not helping your chosen candidate. But that’s fine by me. I’m for the conservatives in the race.
www.suvstrategery.blogspot.com
Bless their hearts
izoneguy (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 9:09AM EDT (link)N/T
Those who had once simpered: “I don’t want to destroy the rich, I only want to seize a little of their surplus to help the poor, just a little, they’ll never miss it!” – then, later, had snapped: “The tycoons can stand being squeezed; they’ve amassed enough to last them for three generations” – then, later, had yelled: “Why should the people suffer while businessmen have reserves to last a year?” – now were screaming: “Why should we starve while some people have reserves to last a week?” – Atlas Shrugged
The Premature Coronation of Romney
circlegranch Thursday, October 27th at 9:17AM EDT (link)is a great read this morning by Jared Peterson at www.americanthinker.com
The Hot Air post today about Cain’s ex-staffer doing a bit of a ‘tell all’ is interesting, as well (and its already posted at RS as a comment). The email memo that supposedly went out that said, “Don’t speak to him (Cain) unless you’re spoken to first.” is funny. (Don’t tell Fox, though, reports like that don’t fit with their “We report, you decide” mantra.
Did Mitt Romney Raise Taxes Or ‘Close Loopholes’?
izoneguy (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 9:50AM EDT (link)Did Mitt Romney Raise Taxes Or ‘Close Loopholes’?
Massachusetts Taxpayers Foundation
Seeking Taxes, Romney Went After Business
Those who had once simpered: “I don’t want to destroy the rich, I only want to seize a little of their surplus to help the poor, just a little, they’ll never miss it!” – then, later, had snapped: “The tycoons can stand being squeezed; they’ve amassed enough to last them for three generations” – then, later, had yelled: “Why should the people suffer while businessmen have reserves to last a year?” – now were screaming: “Why should we starve while some people have reserves to last a week?” – Atlas Shrugged
Liberal spin
redster Wednesday, October 26th at 1:15PM EDT (link)Interesting the skewed sources people will use to try to make a point.
The Massachusetts taxpayers Foundation is a known democrat aligned lobby that can’t say anything bad about democrats or anything good about Romney.
They have no credibility as a “taxpayer” organization.
Here are some gems for you:
Boston Herald – Execs want gas tax hike but won’t feel pump pain – Mar 9, 2009
That’s a typical example of this so called taxpayers association’s response to a democrat governor’s proposal a couple years ago to raise a consumption tax that would hurt every consumer. But when Gov. Romney tried to cut people’s income tax, this “taxpayer” organization went berzerk:
CLTG.org – Gov. Romney calls for “unfreezing” tax rollback – Gimme Lobby predictably erupts – May 4, 2004
Credible taxpayer sources
redster Wednesday, October 26th at 1:26PM EDT (link)There are plenty of them. Here’s a couple:
From the Citizens for Limited Taxation, Massachusetts oldest, largest, (and actually credible, not to mention most credible) taxpayers organization:
CLTG.org – Romney kept his promises and fought for taxpayers
– Feb 16, 2007
(reprinted from Salem News)
From American’s for Tax Reform, a national anti-tax group started in 1985 at Ronald Reagan’s prompting:
Americans for Tax Reform
Thanks Redster
phillarsen Wednesday, October 26th at 4:03PM EDT (link)It’s nice to know there are people out there who care about the truth.
Check out our WhyRomney.com website for more of it.
Romney is a great fiscal conservative.
You guys crack me up. Romney fiscal conservative.
gekster (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 4:21PM EDT (link)Little early for late night jokes, ain’t it.
The fact that you can use Romney and fiscal conservative with out the non in there is hilarious.
Do you do more than one show a night.
They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.
We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway
I’ve gone from
“Hope and Change” to
“Hopeless and Changeless”
redster posted some great responses
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 8:41AM EDT (link)to which I will add the following.
Reagan favored closing tax loopholes:
Mr. Weisman. But in addition to that, you’re also talking about loopholes, tax breaks, whatever you want to call it.
The President. I hesitate — I won’t answer that now, as to what all will be in the study. We are, as I said before, in our present proposal, we are changing some that we believe — while they were undoubtedly well-intentioned, they have led to some taking an — getting an advantage that is denied to others. Where that is true, then that should be corrected, whether you have a deficit or — –
Mr. Weisman. Right.
The President. — – have a tax reform or not.
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
And this
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 8:59AM EDT (link)Brief economic record summary, from a friend’s website:
“Romney served as governor of Massachusetts (2003-2007), with a generally conservative record that included economic expansion.
“He balanced the budget every year of his administration with out increasing taxes or increasing state dept. Romney turned a $3 billion budget deficit into a $500 million surplus by reducing government spending and added 80,000 new jobs by the end of his term.
“In 2004, 2005, and 2006 Governor Romney proposed cutting the state income tax from 5.3% to 5.0%. Although the Democratic super majority in the state legislator refused to budge. Romney vetoed 844 pieces of legislation, with over 700 overridden. He vetoed an increase in the minimum wage, saying “there’s no question raising the minimum wage excessively causes a loss of jobs.”
“Under Governor Romney the state abolished a retroactive capital gains tax that would have forced nearly 50,000 taxpayers to pay additional taxes and fees. ”
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
and fees
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 9:07AM EDT (link)Some people criticize Romney for updating fees, which hadn’t been updated in years in MA. So to the above, I would add (from my site, WhyRomney):
They claim Romney’s increases in fees are identical to taxes. On the contrary, Romney saved millions of tax dollars by ending the taxpayer subsidizing of fees. A fee covers the cost for a special good or service provided to an individual by the government; when a fee is not high enough to cover the cost of the service provided, taxpayers end up subsidizing. Romney shifted the burden from the community onto the individual who benefits from the service provided.
In the past, Gekster accused me of not telling the whole story, so here are relevant excerpts from our exchange:
Some highlights:
Every state raises fees to keep up with the cost of service. In MA, some fees had not been raised in a very long time. So Romney updated them. Not a big deal.
You said, “And the cuts he made to his budget had a ripple effect that raised taxws on the people in MA.”
Tax increases are never necessary. Saying that someone had to raise taxes is a liberal talking point.
You said, “After you read this, post somethiung that resembles it about Perry.”
Sure. Make sure to watch the video too.
http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/Will-no-tax-increases-in-TExas-just-mean-highers-fees-charges-113639029.html
“Facing a $10 billion gap in 2003, the Republican-controlled Legislature balanced that budget as Gov. Rick Perry recalled Tuesday speaking to senators.
“And as we did back in ’03, we’ll balance the budget this time too, setting priorities, making tough decisions and not raising taxes,” Perry said.
But, what Perry didn’t mention is how lawmakers in 2003 deregulated college tuition that shot up 72 percent since then, according to the Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board, and slapped on $2.7 billion in new and higher fees centering on health care and vehicle regulations.
“According to the Texas Comptroller’s office, among some of the bigger fee hikes were up to $1,000 more per teacher in health insurance premiums that raised $711 million.
“Also, there were the $30 traffic ticket fee forecasted to bring in $271 million and a $20 fee on motor vehicle transfers budgeted to raise $200 million.”
You might be asking, “When Romney closed business tax loopholes, did it not have the same effect as raising taxes?” No, level competition ensures maximum value for the consumer. The law as originally written did not intend for the tax “breaks” in question to be legal. They were oversights. So closing the loopholes does not have the effect of raising taxes but has the effect of applying tax rates evenly, which is a fundamental principle of capitalism. If one business is paying less in taxes because of a loophole, the state is giving them an unfair advantage over their competitors. Because of this unfair advantage they do not need to offer as high of a quality of product or service in order to compete, which means the state is interfering in free market competition, and capitalism suffers. Romney repeatedly proposed tax cuts in MA, but the legislature wouldn’t go along with it. Lower tax rates are good, but applying tax rates evenly – without loopholes – is also good.
As for fees, they are not comparable to taxes. On the contrary, Romney saved millions of tax dollars by ending the taxpayer subsidizing of fees. A fee covers the cost for a special good or service provided to an individual by the government; when a fee is not high enough to cover the cost of the service provided, taxpayers end up subsidizing. Romney shifted the burden from the community onto the individual who benefits from the service provided.
Some exceptions critics like to make are refuted as follows:
Fuel fee. Romney updated an already existing per-gallon gasoline fee to offset state costs in managing underground fuel storage leaks. At the time, Romney faced a backlog of cleanup claims for the underfunded state program. It is true that in the years since this increase, the fee has generated more revenue than Romney had anticipated. The initial costs, caused by the backlog of claims, were not representative of future costs, due to improved storage tank quality. So that was a mistake, however I think the important thing is that Romney did not spend the surplus but tried to return it to the people. Romney turned a 3 Billion dollar budget deficit crisis into a surplus. He put the surplus in a rainy day fund and tried to give back to the taxpayers most of the 240 million which he estimated had been raised by fees, starting as soon as he began to turn around the economy, prompting the liberal Boston Globe to complain after Romney’s first year in office, “The first signs of life appear in the Massachusetts economy and the governor calls for a $225 million tax cut” (“Romney’s Real Agenda.” The Boston Globe 11 May 2004).
Parking fee at state parks. The taxpayer was paying for the parking space. One parking space costs over 20,000 dollars, not including upkeep, re-pavement, snow removal, security etc. Facing a budget crisis, Romney realized the state could no longer subsidize public leisure. To provide the service, the cost shifted from the taxpayer to the individual who chooses to use the service.
Gun permits. First, when Romney did his update it only raised the fee to $75. The legislature later brought it to $100, which Romney compensated for by ordering that people not be charged for replacing of lost or stolen permits – prior to that, people had to pay the fee again. Romney also signed a law allowing permits to expire after 6 years instead of 3.
Inflation was also relevant, but unlike most of the fees Romney updated, inflation was only a secondary factor for these increased state costs. The MA gun control act of 1998 declared that the licensing authority is only allowed to keep half of the fee, and the rest goes into a new record-keeping fund. The act also institutes a number of other changes which raise overhead and impacted costs. The people are ultimately responsible for this new fund and all the new regulations and overhead, since they elected their representatives. Thus, the people collectively chose to increase the cost of providing the service, before Romney was even Governor.
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
Ryan, you wouldn't by chance also have been
barry915barry (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 10:54AM EDT (link)a Cherilyn Eagar supporter, now, would you?? Barry
/snark/
You Should Post this on FreeRepublic
RebelRoss0587 (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 10:43PM EDT (link)I know Free Republic has some of the most close-minded people on the internet, but we can’t give up in helping them see the light.
Holy crap.
aesthete (Diary) Wednesday, October 26th at 10:56PM EDT (link)“See the light”? The terrifying possibility that few even believed was possible with a candidate as mealy-mouthed as Romney has become a reality: Romney has his own cultists!
“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke
Thank you, Ross.
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 8:11AM EDT (link)I appreciate that suggestion.
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
If I had to perform an autopsy of this diary (and the last open letter)...
aesthete (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 3:10PM EDT (link)I’d say that the problem was twofold:
1) Not knowing your audience. Many of the claims, arguments, and assertions made by Ryan are puzzling to the readership here. For example, the bizarre argument that mandates are a legitimate government function because children’s issues are subject to a lot of government oversight/coercion: conservative thought has already delineated a difference between children and adults, so when Ryan attempted this argument, it confused and infuriated a readership which already sees a fundamental difference between adults and children and how they should be treated. The same applies to some of Ryan’s other arguments: the “pro-life” argument for RomneyCare requires a utilitarian calculus which is, quite frankly, abhorrent and at odds with the pro-life movement’s main thrust. (I’ll clarify this more in an almost-completed diary.) I don’t begrudge Ryan his views, but persuasion works much better when you understand the opinions and motivations of your readership. What Ryan did was, essentially, argue for Ryanism by misappropriating terms and ideas conservatives are sympathetic to, and redefining them.
2) Shoddy and frankly dishonest argumentation. Not every argument forwarded by Ryan was a bad one: he had some good points on Romney’s record wrt immigration, and it is true that Romney worked to cut government in his first year in office. I think that one could theoretically make a conservative case for Romney (good luck getting me to do it). However, there is a difference between making a conservative case for Romney, and decrying all criticism of him as smears: the latter is impossible, given that Romney is a politician. Constantly we would see Ryan deflect questions by pointing to some other politician (look at the first half of this diary), ask leading questions, beg the question, make irrelevant conclusions, straw-man his opponents, or engage in non-sequitur. Logical fallacies are like makeup: for people not to notice them, you have to apply them cleverly and delicately, rather than slathering them all over the place. Unfortunately for Ryan, he was attempting to prove a statement which was impossible to prove without sloppy logic: consequently, he gets caught in the comments section and writes a wall of text “clarifying” a position that wasn’t sound to begin with.
A bad argument is like a house with poor foundations: any fool can make one, it’s a lot less time-consuming than making a good one, and from afar you can’t tell the difference. But just as a house with sturdy construction is ultimately the better investment and is easier to maintain over time, so too is a good, careful argument one that will both stand the test of time and be seen as more valuable for your cause. Thus endeth the lesson.
“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke
LOL
jewile23 Thursday, October 27th at 8:42PM EDT (link)I just read this entire post….diary and all comments. I think I fell asleep a couple times but I made it through. Ryan had almost won me back by the end, but aesthete’s last comment is classic. Sorry Ryan, you are defeated my man. An enterntaining read for sure, but you lose in the end. Just like Romney will lose in the end…..to Obama.
I don't know why.
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 10:17PM EDT (link)aesthete’s comment seems pretty short on specifcs. You could take parts of his comment and apply it to just about anything that you wish to insult.
In other words, aesthete did not debunk anything I said. He insulted it at length, but his inability to actually challenge the substance of what I’ve written should clue you in to the fact that he’s grasping at straws.
He didn’t understand the argument I made about children, although he seems to think that’s his best shot at discrediting me. I guess I didn’t explain it well the first time, so here it is again.
The Founders understood we not only have God-given rights but also have God-given responsibilities. Short of discovering new land in the world and defending it alone, we all rely on a community to defend our land and liberty. God has put us together, and one of our rights and responsibilities is to work together in determining how best to serve society. At the most fundamental level, this is true in the family. Parents have a God-given responsibility to love, protect and care for their children. A child, in turn, has a God-given responsibility to love and submit to their parents. This is true even though it is not written in the Constitution. It is God-given, and each state is a guardian of that responsibility.
We have a right to demand that other people uphold their responsibilities, ranging from wearing clothes, receiving an education and paying taxes, to giving one’s life for their country.
In Part I of my open letter, I go into detail about the Founding Fathers and the precedent they set, and why Romney’s mandate was not an infringement on liberty.
Have a good day and thanks for reading the diary all the way through. I hope you remain open to all sides of the argument.
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
I understood it.
aesthete (Diary) Thursday, October 27th at 11:35PM EDT (link)I, and many of the conservatives on this site, don’t agree with it, and especially do not agree with the irrelevant conclusion that you derive from this viewpoint. (To wit: “We have a right to demand that other people uphold their responsibilities, ranging from wearing clothes, receiving an education and paying taxes, to giving one’s life for their country”, a conclusion upon which you base your view that the mandate is appropriate and conservative.)
“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke
Founders
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Friday, October 28th at 8:04PM EDT (link)The mandate is “conservative” as a trial. An experiment to solve a problem, like science.
If I understood you correctly, you disagree with Reagan on a number of things, and disagree with Samuel Adams on his pauper care plan. You also support Gary Johnson, I believe. So you are not representative of mainstream conservatism. You may be representative of a much narrower group of people with libertarian leanings.
Do you also disagree with the Founding Fathers on fence mandates and other examples I added to Part I?
If so, how do you reconcile your concept of liberty with that of the Founders?
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
Given your sig quote and this reply, I must be very great man, indeed!
aesthete (Diary) Friday, October 28th at 8:55PM EDT (link)Now, for The List of Objections Which I Will Number for No Particular Reason:
1) The Founders, as with any group of people, were divergent in opinion within themselves, and disagreed with one another quite strongly on a variety of issues. Referring to them as a monolithic group with one opinion is… well… silly.
2) The Founders are celebrated for their revolutionary actions towards respect for human liberty, autonomy, republicanism, and checks and balances, and for being symbolic of same. Specific actions of the founding fathers are certainly subject to individual scrutiny. This is the same fallacy liberals use to state that the Constitution established a larger government than the Articles of Confederation (true), that this means that the Founders were for big government (false), and that they are thus following in the example of the Founders when they expand government. The trend among the Founders was towards greater liberty; one data point among many does not an argument make.
3) Yeah, I disagree with some things that the Founders and Reagan did. Anyone who agrees with either group 100% is probably ignorant, stupid, or a coward who will not admit to a difference of opinion with these admittedly great men out of fear of being labelled a RINO or what have you. Oh yeah, and I disagree with Gary Johnson on a heck of a lot of stuff. I would still support him if he got any traction. That’s what intellectually honest supporters do — support people with the understanding that they are people, and politicians, who have done things that go against what you believe and will continue to do so in the future. What can I say: I value consistency over intentional blindness.
4) You can’t define “liberty” as “whatever the Founders thought” — that’s just dishonest. Negative liberty (what conservatives believe in) is freedom from coercion on the part of others. Positive liberty (what liberals believe in) is the power to act to fulfill one’s true potential, regardless of cost or circumstance. Either definition is fine. The one that you’re concocting out of thin air is not. The Founders, myself, and you all believe(d) in restricting liberty in certain contexts: the Founders (inconsistently) tended towards believing it appropriate when “life, liberty and property” were under duress from an outside party, and I generally agree with that formulation. I don’t know when you or Romney believe that it’s appropriate, but that’s neither here nor there: there is a quantitative difference between saying “I believe X is a good reason for restricting your freedoms”, and “I’m not restricting you freedoms by pointing a gun to your head to get you to buy insurance!! Just ask the Founders!” The first statement may or may not be valid and you’d have to make an argument for it, but the second is just plain dishonest and insulting to our respective intelligences.
4) “you are not representative of mainstream conservatism.” Maybe I’m not. Maybe this whole site isn’t. Maybe internet conservatives in general are not. So what? The post you responded to had nothing to do with “mainstream conservatism”; I specifically mention “I, and many of the conservatives on this site” as those who disagreed with your argument. We’re the audience that you are writing for, not nondescript “mainstream conservatives”. (
5) So… if it’s an “experiment” with sufficient democratic input and operating under constitutional norms*, then it’s conservative? Um… what?! So if MA decided to “experiment” with limiting the franchise to only Episcopalians, or to change its flag to labor red and work gradually through the constitutional process to change the state into a socialist paradise… then that’s conservative? If you’re making a Burkean argument for gradual, consensual change being better than abrupt change, then that’s fine, but let’s not pretend that the Burkean qualifiers for change are the end-all, be-all of American conservatism. Otherwise, anything is fair game to title as a conservative policy, *especially* the 70+ years of gradual progressive change to make us into a social democracy.
*For the purpose of discussion. I don’t concede the points I made in your earlier diary about what the MA constitution can be construed to mean.
“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke
Hi
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Wednesday, November 2nd at 3:23AM EDT (link)I think you need to go back and read Part I. Thanks.
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
Compelling reply, Ryan.
SoFiMil (Diary) Wednesday, November 2nd at 6:52AM EDT (link)Not.
www.suvstrategery.blogspot.com
Don't worry
jewile23 Friday, October 28th at 7:04AM EDT (link)My vote will be one of the first cast for Mr. Romney, in the NH primary. You have successfully put to rest any concerns I have about his credibility. I just happen to also agree with aesthete. Romney is a Politician. You cannot possibly justify everything for him. You tried too hard….and at times it shows a bias (sorry, I am not going to cite examples….which I’m sure you will notice). But I do think that your objectivity is lost in the shuffle somewhere, which tends to discredit more of your argument than you seem to want to acknowledge.
But don’t worry my friend, you have successfully categorized enough of the trees that I can know see the forest for what it is. Romney is definitely not as perfect as you would want him to be…..but he is the best Republican candidate and definitely the most electable one in the general election. My fear, and my prediction, is that he will win the battle but lose the war…..he falls too short when it counts next November.
Fair Enough :)
Ryan Larsen (Diary) Friday, October 28th at 7:52PM EDT (link)Thank you for the constructive criticism.
“To be great is to be misunderstood” – Ralph Waldo Emerson