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Vermont Legalizes Gay Marriage…Constitutionally – Open Thread

Regardless of where you are in regards to marriage between people of the same sex (as I mentioned here, I am against it, Vermont constitutionally passed legislation legalizing such marriages. Vermont is the only state to have made them legal in the method approved of by conservatives, through the legislative process (and without a prior ruling by the state courts), while the other three, Massachusetts, Connecticut, and Iowa, made gay “marriage” “legal” by judicial fiat via those courts’ questionable reading of the equal protection clause (as I also mentioned in my other post, the definitive case disallowing a gay couple to get a marriage license, Minnesota’s Baker v. Nelson from 1971, completely rejected the use of the equal protection clause as a claim for gay marriage).

In any event, it’s good that Vermont did things properly. Remember fellow conservatives, process is important with the various levels of government in the United States. It is the process that helps guarantee our liberties.

Consider this an open thread.

COMMENTS

  • http://moelane.com/ Moe Lane

    And, based on the civil union/SSM numbers in CT right now, SSM supporters (like myself) may end up wishing that we had left well enough alone. Well, I already do so wish – but I may be joined by more people soon.

    Anyway, I’m glad that Vermont did this properly. Now we can wait, and see the effects.

    • penguin2

      your comment. Not being familiar with other content on this, I don’t know what you had “wished had been left alone.”

      I can accept what you all are saying from legal standpoints, but I don’t like the world being turned upside down.

      • http://moelane.com/ Moe Lane

        …but don’t like “gay marriage.” There was no backlash from the legislature permitting the former; we have yet to see what happens now that the courts have imposed the latter. I suspect that there will be a backlash, and backlashes rarely end well for the pro-SSM side of the argument. Which you’d think that we’d learn by now.

  • Skanderbeg

    Be careful about that contention, Scipio.

    Today’s idiocy was just the capstone of what has been a long-march process that was midwifed all along the way by a rampant, out-of-control state supreme court continually legislating from the bench.

    To use an analogy with the family of your illustrious namesakes, it would be like discussing the Rome-Carthage rivalry by only discussing the Third Punic War….

    • scipio62

      After all, there have been several challenges to “legalize” gay marriage in various state courts that have been rejected (Morrison v. Sadler in Indiana, and Andersen v. King County in Washington). Plus, the federal court has affirmed the constitutionality of traditional marriage in challenges to state constitutions and the DOMA (Citizens for Equal Protection v. Bruning and Wilson v. Ake).

      • Skanderbeg

        Nothing to do with what I said.

        The reality is that things were dragged this far in Vermont for years by a hyper-active state supreme court – the capstone would never have happened without all that prior abuse.

        • scipio62

          I hadn’t followed the whole history of this issue. I stand corrected.

          • Skanderbeg

            Sorry to be grumpy. But this has been a long, long story of judicial activism and outright lies. It’s just inappropriate to give a pass to a decade-plus-long game because after 10 – 15 years of being nursed along by activist judges they didn’t need them to score from the one-yard line….

        • icbm

          n/t

  • http://andrightlyso.com/ civil_truth

    Right now, the voters narrowly passed an initiative that SSM is not legal, but the CA SC is considering whether to overturn the initative – in which case it will be the courts that impose it.

  • JadedByPolitics

    I have always said while not agreeing with gay marriage that the people are the one’s who decide and via their elected officials in the state of VT it has been done! NOW if we can STOP the stupidity that is judges overturning the will of the people in other states there will be victory for all concerned. I like when states rights trump the will of the judges and the federal government.

    • Skanderbeg

      Jaded, see the above comments.

      This whole thing was basically a long-term project run by a hyper-active state supreme court. Today would not have been possible at all without that.

      Just because they didn’t have to intervene to put in the capstone (as they explicitly threatened to do 10 years ago) doesn’t clear the role the judiciary played in the long march to this idiocy….

      • JadedByPolitics

        The representatives of the people who overode the veto by the govenor so it is the peoples will that VT now allows gay marriage. It is the judges who overturn the people that make it unconstitutional. I want abortion to be this way I want the states and the people of those states to decide for themselves if they want to kill innocent babies. I suspect we will end up with the east and west coasts saying yes and flyover country saying no BUT to have a group of judges decide for the whole of the US is untenable.

        • Skanderbeg

          Careful.

          The entire 10 – 15 year process was driven by a hyper-active state supreme court (and at the critical juncture 10 years ago, if the court hadn’t intervened the whole thing would have stopped way back then).

          After all that, The Court wasn’t required to put the last pebble on the big rock pile.

        • David123

          When Vermont asked to become a state it defined marriage as one man + one woman. The other states also defined marriage as one man + one woman. Vermont was culturally acceptable and it was admitted as a state. Would Vermont have been allowed to be a state had it defined marriage as one man + another man when it asked for statehood? I doubt it.

          When Utah wanted to become a state it did not define marriage as one man + one woman. Utah was told it couldn’t be a state until they defined marriage the right way. Utah then defined marriage as one man + one woman, and on that basis Utah was permitted to become a state.

  • Aaron Gardner

    My Father-in-Law is a legislator here in Vermont, groups from outside the state did robo calls that directed voters to call my Father-in-Law…at home..to explain why he was planning on voting to uphold the Gov’s veto.

    The tactics employed were typical of the dems….in fact this whole issue was brought up by the State Dems in order to move the public away from the budget issues here in the state.

    The really bad thing here is that we already had civil unions which afforded homosexuals all of the rights that the State could confer upon them., this bill does nothing except alter the definition of a word.

    No rights were won or lost for the homosexuals.

    • Harold_Vaughn

      public acceptance of a particular sexual lifestyle.

      • Michael DeWeese

        Progressive dream to progress society will be forcing acceptance of such alternative sexual lifestyles like pedophilia and beatiaity.

        • Skanderbeg

          Actually, what’s coming next is polygamy.

          And note that one of the constituencies for THAT is rather, shall we say, VERY non-gay-friendly….

          • Aaron Gardner

            it won’t be traditional polygamy, as religious reasons would not be sufficient legal reasons, it will be the Bi and Transgender community that will push for their “rights” to marry who they want…you know, both a man and a woman. FLDS will still not be allowed to legally be polygamists.

          • Skanderbeg

            If you get bored, go back and dig out the amicus brief that the state AG (who is still the same guy, and who is being remarkably silent about his old brief these days) filed ten years ago, arguing against what happened today (and arguing for the “permanent compromise” we were promised back then hahahaha) on the grounds that it was opening the door to all sorts of “alternative” practices – polygamy, polyandry, “group marriages,” and “marriage communities” (there actually *was* one of those in Putney back in the 1830s).

            Funny to recall that Brigham Young and Joseph Smith were both born and raised in Vermont; Smith’s original parish church is still standing right by Exit 2 of I-89. Seems like they’re getting their revenge for getting driven out all these years back over this issue….

          • Aaron Gardner
          • Skanderbeg

            Actually, Sharon – one exit up I-89 from you. I think there are signs along I-89 noting that there’s something there to mark Joseph Smith’s birthplace, and I’m pretty sure that the lovely old boxy wooden church right close to the exit is his original parish (before his “revelation”).

            Brigham was originally from somewhere down near the Massachusetts border; the village I think is Jacksonville, but I don’t recall the township. It’s right on Route 9 that runs between Brattleboro and Bennington…..

          • penguin2
          • Skanderbeg

            Yep.

            And I’m not just pulling that out of my hat.

            Up in Canada, they crossed this general silliness divide a few years back. Two or three years ago, there was a judicial memo circulating inside the Ontario provincial government arguing that Ontario should move to legalize polygamy – on the grounds that this sort of expansion would make Ontario “more competitive” in attracting “talented immigrants” from cultures where polygamy is the norm.

            When it leaked out there was a furor and it was quietly dropped…. for now.

            Mark Steyn as usual once managed to sum things up in just a column title (let alone the column): “When the Imams Settle Brokeback Mountain.”

            And of course in the UK, the courts have already ruled that welfare payments have to be made available to multi-spouse spouses at the going rate for individuals.

            I won’t at all be surprised if somewhere in the next 5 – 10 years some court somewhere ordered the legalization of polygamy….

        • http://hillbillypolitics.com Steph C

          must be having a field day right about now.

          • penguin2

            No moral compass.

          • mom2oneson

            bite bite bite
            that white x in the corner is my friend

            the same publishing company for them also publishes books that go in public schools

          • http://hillbillypolitics.com Steph C

            I’m sure most of us will be able to translate. :-)

          • mom2oneson

            I wrote it, the same company that publishes beyond horrible evilness criminal books for that first organization also publishes books that are given out in public schools for K and 1st grade levels. It’s so beyond sickening. Anything more will get be the blam stick (for real). If you haven’t eaten lately and don’t want to sleep for a few nights, search google and it’s all there. :(

          • http://hillbillypolitics.com Steph C

            I thought you were talking about something else. Sick, isn’t it?

          • mom2oneson
          • http://www.ssce.net/Web-Articles/Web-articles-indexed-authors.html#authors-l JLenardDetroit

            Do you need a Sponge-Bob band-aid for your tongue now? ;-) lol

          • http://hillbillypolitics.com Steph C
          • http://www.ssce.net/Web-Articles/Web-articles-indexed-authors.html#authors-l JLenardDetroit

            I would never do such a thing

            The Thought Police blamming ;-) or is this the Dream Police?… they live inside of my head…. they’re coming to arrest me… oh no…..

          • http://hillbillypolitics.com Steph C

            Take deep breaths.

            If they’re lving inside your head they’re surely not big enough to take you alive. :-)

          • http://www.ssce.net/Web-Articles/Web-articles-indexed-authors.html#authors-l JLenardDetroit

            …. at least that is what they tell me they are ;-)


            That’s me – making like a Liberal ;-) lol

          • mom2oneson
          • Rod_Patrick

            JLenard, you’re dah man!!!!!

          • http://www.ssce.net/Web-Articles/Web-articles-indexed-authors.html#authors-l JLenardDetroit

            IMO, are needed to keep us “grounded” or sane! — yeah, I know, me talking about “Sanity” funny, right? :-) lol — I usaully prefer the humor be at someone elses expense, of course, but have to poke fun at myself sometimes — ‘cuz I’m so humble ;-)

            / END THREAD-JACK

            With apologies to those in on the serious topic/discussion of/on this Diary. Seriously!!!

          • Slightly_Askew

            I’m not sure it’s physically possible to threadjack an open thread, anyway.

          • Rod_Patrick

            But I take JLenard medicine of laughter in these difficult times … coz it’s free*.

            *Oops., I’m beginning to catch socialist’s cold.

          • http://hillbillypolitics.com Steph C

            I’ll share, too. Then we can all pretend to be liberals. ;-)

      • penguin2

        The reason for the “forcing” is to have people condone that “particular lifestyle.” Civil unions seemed to be a reasonable compromise for their rights. Forcing it into the definition of marriage, undermines the basic unit of society-the family. As far as I know, all of the major religions of the world recognize marriage as between a man and a woman.

        My greatest concern is when the churches will be forced to perform marriage ceremonies; will our constitution uphold our right to religious freedom? Perhaps, the legal beagles can weigh in on this for us Redstaters.

        I believe in live and let live, but all I have seen in recent years is a deterioration of our rights.

        • pilgrim

          If a citizen of Vermont tells a gay couple that they can’t force him to recognize them as a married couple, then what are they going to do?

          • Harold_Vaughn

            or possibly jail time for the same reason depending on how hateful he was.

          • Skanderbeg

            What they’ll do is just run it as a “civil rights” violation meme.

            Just ponder the legal remedies if someone refused to say rent an apartment to a mixed-race couple (which you’d think would be his right as a property owner, but we’ve passed that water under the bridge already).

            One of the real obvious sadisms of the 1999/2000 “civil unions” (sic) legislation was that it was basically a “benefits” rule – e.g., that any employer that offered benefits to plain old traditional spouses had to also – by law – offer them to “CU partners.”

            Since established churches have what you might call “secular commercial operations,” someone asked that the law be amended to allow religious organizations that would have a problem with this to be exempted – but that amendment was voted down with glee. The Catholic Church announced that it was going to ignore the “law” on this issue, and that if the state wanted to send the police to arrest the bishops, they were free to try it. For now, the kooks haven’t been able to bring themselves to send the police into churches and drag away Catholic clergy in handcuffs….

          • Harold_Vaughn

            are providing to gay couples was forced upon them in some form or fashion.

            I figure that all the diversity awareness stuff is linked as well.

          • Mike gamecock DeVine

            of course, I can imagine a more specifically defined scenario in which your answer would be possible, as we have seen same in Canada.

          • DONTREADONME

            won’t be long now before we recognize schizophrenics voices in here head and will have a constitution right to equal protection under the law as a married couple, while we are at it legalize polygamy now in Vermont!

            If you are a SSM supporter and do not want to get angry read no further…

            Anyway, I am all for states deciding not to recognize marriage all together if this is what we need to put up with. Burn it all to the ground, there you go, you happy now? So have at me, yah I said it, thirty something and I do not accept homosexuality, sorry, but you can call SSM on your own time. yes, it is a matter of time for this homo thing to go full blown in the USA, but do not expect me ever to accept it. Someone will always see this practice as unacceptable.

            Heh, what is the point of definitions, if we can always change the meaning, this subject is one of the reasons, people like me stay out of politics because this subject even being talked about as something to legitimize is disgraceful. Back in the 80′s growing up with 9 plus other boys my same age the worst thing you could be called is a qu***r now it is something cool. Only 20 years, and this is the topic of conversation, maybe we need the USSR again to refocus priorities in life. If homosexual marriage is important we do not need marriage anymore!

            Lastly, you can call it SSM but do not expect me to treat you as a married couple, because I do not have to. Civil Rights does not include the recognition of coupling, so stop recognizing it and we solve the problem. So there, I am big homophobe or whatever, but this stuff burns me up.

          • Harold_Vaughn

            my answer was in regards to the next steps that will be taken against those that are unaccepting of gay marriage. I have already seen it in the policies of the places that I have worked.

            Thanks for your input GC, as always you’re spot on.

          • Mike gamecock DeVine

            for violations of free speech and religion and am going to do a column soon with more of a detailed legal analysis.

            thanks Harold

          • Mike gamecock DeVine

            all citizens to recognize anything. The ruling requires that those particular citizens that are required to process civil marriages, so process those same sex couples that otherwise qualify and that those that process tax and other policies that require specific treatment of married couples so process all legal married couples.

          • pilgrim

            I have read a few comments on this diary about how the agenda is to force all the heterosexuals to recognize them as “married”. They want hearts and minds changed, and this law will not do this. This law will only stipulates that the government recognizes the same sex couples. It does not change anyone’s heart and mind.

          • Skanderbeg

            Well, there *is* a lot of reductio-ad-absurdum in this….

            To the worm-eaten mind of a progressive, the state is the church. Ergo, this is required for their “church” to “bless” their whatever-it-is….

          • pilgrim

            Let’s say that state legislators pass a bill that recognizes 2+2=5. The Governor vetoes the bill, but with a lot of pressure and arm-twisting the legislators get enough votes to override the veto and 2+2=5. There aint gonna be any means of enforcing the “forcing” of individuals to recognize that 2+2=5.

          • Skanderbeg

            Well, you know that and I know that.

            But dimwit legislators not only can pass laws saying 2+2=5 – they can also specify sanctions against anyone who says that 2+2=4….

            There was another attempt to insert a provision giving leeway to churches that want no part of this, but once again the sadists defeated it with glee.

            From a quick read, it looks like if some pair of nitwits ask a real church to give them a ceremony and the church refuses, the church will be in violation of state law. Then the nitwits will ask the law to punish the church. Oh, that’s when it will get really interesting….

            Funny though how with everything falling apart (both literally and figuratively), the legislature has basically wasted three consecutive sessions on this garbage and “global warming.” It’s strange that during the GWB years, the lefties were always claiming that democracy was being destroyed. Democracies aren’t destroyed by robustness – they’re destroyed when they become effete and silly, like we saw today.

            Maybe Polybius really did have it right….

          • hmmcontrib

            But the real concerns about civil unions vs marriage are quite specific and concrete.
            Marriage is more than a word. Hospitals, schools, insurance, benefits, etc: all of them can (and have, documented) refused to honor “civil union partners” because they only recognize spouses. You marry and become a spouse. A domestic partner or civil union-er (?) is not a spouse. The reason the word matters is because when they tried civil unions or domestic partnerships in the real world they found that, quite simply, they weren’t equal. Separate but equal never is.
            So for all of you claiming that “they had all the rights; they just wanted to force us to accept us”; I’m afraid you’re wrong on the facts.
            I won’t attempt to change your religious bias against homosexuals; you’re entitled to your beliefs just as the orthodox Muslims are, but in the secular world, marriage carries with it specific legal AND non-government-related (by which I mean the private company-offered benefits, etc) rights and responsibilities which any of the “separate but equal” alternatives, once put in practice, simply did not achieve.
            When you add the inequity of the situation to the fact that no heterosexual rights are damaged by the extension of marriage rights to gays, and (as the Iowa court noted) the exclusion of gays from marriage licenses is entirely religious based (once you dismiss the marriage=procreation arguments, which heterosexuals aren’t held to), there was no reason not to include gays in marriage rights. I’m not much of a Republican anymore (just the R on my voter reg card), but I’m glad a few GOPers supported this move, esp. when do by the legislature and not the courts.

          • DONTREADONME
          • Skanderbeg

            o Only a real spouse can be a spouse; trying to create alternative realities isn’t work out very well.

            o There’s nothing in anything you’re trying to say that would stop the adoption of polygamy and first-cousin marriages (and lots of even fruitier things) – in fact, your arguments are perfectly consonant with those things.

            o Every jurisdiction that has devolved to this nonsense has been a dying jurisdiction.

            What the self-anointed “broad-minded” need to face is that the gay, pothead, free-health-care utopia is just a brief novelty interlude. It’s a vacuum into which something more robust will expand – what that will be is still an open question.

          • Aaron Gardner

            I also think that you are conflating the Iowa case and the Vermont case. Vermont’s civil union laws conferred all the rights the state could. Please tell me what right’s homosexuals in Vermont have that they didn’t have yesterday?

          • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens
          • passerby25

            To be honest, I don’t have a problem with the courts striking down laws banning SSM. Though I understand that you may not like people “Legislating from the bench”, the job of the Courts is to protect the rights of the minority against the majority. It all depends whether you consider marriage between Same sex couples a “Right” or not (which I do). Because if you do, then the Courts are just striking down a law that Restricts Gay’s Rights, rather then creating a law that gives it to them.

          • Harold Vaughn

            that same sex couples have a “Right” to marriage?

          • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens
          • passerby25

            I suppose there isn’t a specific part of any constitution that gives that right, but we give the rights to married couples, and one can imply that it is probably unconstitutional to treat two groups of people (as long as we’re talking about the same issue: in this case, marriage) differently for an arbitrary reason.

          • Aaron Gardner

            they can marry a member of the opposite sex…just like everyone else….how is that not equal?

          • passerby25

            how about the right to marry whom you want (As long as they are a consenting adult).

            Though I am not equating the two, that would be like saying when Inter-racial Marriage was illegal: “Black people have the same Rights as white people: they can marry people of their race.”

          • Harold Vaughn

            to take money from me when I don’t consent to it?

          • Aaron Gardner

            Rights are not about what a person wants…they are about what they are rightfully entitled to…and in our Country we recognize that those rights come from God.

            And your logic is totally faulty…it would allow for anything to occur.

            Using you logic how could you deny polygamist marriages, or even marriages between species, family members, inanimate objects that some rely on for sexual gratification….why not…afterall they aren’t hurting anyone and that is what they want…so who are you to deny them that “right”.

            Now if you paid attention in school instead of playing on the computer you might have learned the difference between rights and wants.

          • passerby25

            Polygamy: weakens personal bonds of love. Polygamy really does undermine the personal relationship that Marriage is based on, which Gay marriage, does not.

            Species: Another species cannot consent to marriage, and there is a possibility of bringing new diseases to humans (I.E. HIV came from Monkeys). No personal bond of love like that of two humans.

            inanimate Objects: can’t consent, can’t technically be a “Family”, since there is no love between a man and an object.

            Marriage is supposed to be based on a personal connection, which you could call “Love”, between two people. With all of those you listed, there is little actual love, thus, there should not be any marriage.

            If two Homosexuals love each other, then there is no reason why they should not be allowed to make their love “Official” (I.E get married).

          • Aaron Gardner

            You may think Polygamy or any of the other I listed have valid reasons to not be allowed….but that doesn’t matter according to your argument…you specifically talked about what the people want.

            And since that is valid justification for homosexuals then why not bisexuals who wish to have both a husband and a wife…I mean *they* aren’t infringing on *your* rights so why should *you* deny them *their* rights to marry whom they *want*

            Now I am sure you still won’t yield being that you are versed in the circular argumentation style of your schoolmasters.

          • passerby25

            What is it that makes a marriage in the first place? What it is is a personal bond between two people who love each other, and want to certify that bond by a promise of being with each other for the rest of their lives. You can’t really have that bond when you have multiple people with whom you are married, and you can’t have that bond with animals or objects. But there is no reason that you can’t between two people of the same sex.

            My argument before wasn’t valid, I get that, but what you’re not getting is the larger picture that there is NO reason that Gays cannot get married. The whole “Next you will have to legalize Polygamy” and whatnot argument is not valid either, and neither does any other argument that I have seen against gay marriage.

          • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

            A man and a woman making a commitment for a lifetime to each other.

          • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

            You should consider to stop misrepresenting the truth and saying they can’t.

          • AKSteveB

            My niece “married” her gf during the short time that it was legal in the state of Oregon. I’m perfectly ok with gay marriage, as long as it isn’t instituted by the courts, but I’m just never going to really think of them as married, to me they will always be “life partners” or somesuch. I guess it always comes back to whether the civil law should match natural law.

          • Aaron Gardner

            after all the same arguments you are making against polygamy have been used against SSM…so again who are you to define marriage….and who are you to say the love between two men and one woman isn’t real. That bond is just as reall as just the two men’s love…no?

            In the larger picture that you keep referencing is there something about polygamy that makes it especially wrong….or does that just cross your ickiness boundary?

          • Harold Vaughn

            true it explains a whole lot.

          • passerby25

            And it explains why I’m so smart! as Oscar Wilde said: “I am not young enough to know everything”. Well, I AM! :P

          • dwarfmama

            The means by which the next generation of citizens is produced and trained for the continuation of our civilization.

            By this measure, polygamy is a more natural condition than same-sex marriage. Polygamy is self-sustaining. Same-Sex couples can never produce another generation without acting OUTSIDE their union.

          • passerby25

            But we still allow old people, infertile people, and people who don’t intend to have children get married. Do you believe that they should not be allowed to get married? If not, then you seem to be inconsistent in applying your standard.

          • DONTREADONME
          • Aaron Gardner

            I said everybody had the same right to marry someone of the opposite sex so the law was applied equally..you said that wasn’t really equal and compared it to not allowing interracial marriage…making sure to point out that you weren’t *actually” comparing the two (yeah right)…so following your own logic polygamy should be allowed regardless because the law restricts their “right” to marry whomever they see fit….you can’t claim a “right” by one means and then deny another class that same “right” using the same means…to do so would mean that all men are not created equal.

            See how stupid you sound….now get off the computer and do your homework.

          • passerby25

            I used a poor argument before, Ok. Marriage is not based off of Desire like I implied before. but that doesen’t change the fact that there is no real logical reason to deny Gays the Right to marriage, and the ones that were raised, I believe I solidly refuted.

            I don’t have any homework right now, since I am on spring break (I need to find a good book to read though, if you have any suggestions), but thanks for your concern.

            and since when has having a different opinion then the article promotes make me a “Troll”?

          • Aaron Gardner

            after all one of our front page posters is pro SSM…..what makes you a troll is conflating race and sexual persuasion, being just a 16 year old punk who wants to interrupt our site, being incapable of forming a cogent argument, relying strictly on your feelings rather than appealing to logic…those are the things that make you a troll.

            Nice to know you have nothing better to do than troll a conservative site during your spring break….I bet all the girls/guys at your school are lining up to ask you out for prom.

            If you want a good book to read try Liberal Fascism by Jonah Goldberg…buy a dictionary first…I am sure you will need it.

          • passerby25

            I have backed up the reason that I am pro-SSM with reason, I haven’t been relying on emotions rather then Logic, and I am not trying to interrupt your site, but rather, have a reasonable discussion with people whom I disagree with (Its difficult to find a place that it’s easy to do that on). Of course, I am not yet as articulate as I would like when typing up an argument, so it may just sound like ranting, but you shouldn’t confuse that with a lack of logic, or trolling.

            The Reasons I am Pro SSM are this:
            I believe, that people should should be given as much autonomy over their own life as possible.
            Marriage is something that is fundamental to our Society, this I do not disagree with.
            Marriage, in my opinion, is just two people with a personal unique bond of love who have made a promise to be with each other until death.
            Any two adults can share that personal bond with each other.
            If they share that bond, then they should be allowed to get married.
            People and Objects, and people and animals, can’t share that bond. People and multiple people can’t share that bond, because it ceases to be personal and unique.

            Do you follow?
            Am I basing my argument on emotion? Am I trolling? Am I stirring up trouble? I’m a punk? No, I’m not. I try to be respectful, and rationalize my opinions, and if you can’t respect that then I think it is you who is the punk.

          • DONTREADONME

            First of all you fail to comprehend that this arguement is not about your idealism about two adults sharing some bond. Face the facts just because you think it is so does not always make it acceptable to everyone, and yes the Majority of Americans do not hold your view even normally Democrat voters.

            You are starting to embrace an open ended arguement that can not stop with just two people sharing a bond. You are starting down a road of allowing the questions of: why can’t three people share a bond of marriage, why not four, why not a man and a boy (NAMBLA), why not a man and a dog (beastiality), or woman and horse (Heartbreak Kid), man and his imaginary friend. Two men= close friends married, two women girlfriends married, man-woman married with woman friend, you just can not argue this sucessfully here. Where does it stop. Again here you said it “In your Opinion”

            “Marriage, in my opinion, is just two people with a personal unique bond of love who have made a promise to be with each other until death.
            Any two adults can share that personal bond with each other. {This is called a contract or agreement, power of attorney, friendship, perversion}
            If they share that bond, then they should be allowed to get married. {why? for what reason do we have to accept two men or two women; does it make you feel better}

            People and Objects, and people and animals, can?t share that bond. People and multiple people can?t share that bond, because it ceases to be personal and unique” {I am sure the people who have an affection for the animal or the object or the figment of their imagination would disagree with you and I especially expect the polygamists to disagree with you as well, do you get why there is going?}

            So IMO, your logic if man-man bonding is marriage but everthing else is not, then your argument is no different then me saying man and women can be married only. All you have done is move the reference point.

            I would argue that all is fair game and there is nothing stopping people from claiming that they can love two people. See the show Big Love sometime on HBO, they make that thing look pretty authentic.

            Yes this is the slippery slope argument, and guess what news for you the slippery slope is what has happened over the last three decades in the culture of the U.S since you have only been around for 16 years. You are espousing the typical moral realitivism argument, which I did at your age as well.

            Also read Mark Levin’s book Tyranny and Liberty a Conservative Manifesto.

            So, after this I will not be discussing anything with you further since until you are 24 I do not expect you to see the world correctly. Enjoy your stay here, Tread Lightly.

          • Aaron Gardner

            We get it….you still haven’t given one legitimate reason why homosexual marriage is ok and polygamy isn’t….hint…your “feelings” don’t matter, only the law. And since the supreme law in the U.S. is the Constitution, and SSM supporters used Constitutional grounds, such as the equal protection clause, to create the “right” of SSM, then, according to that same interpretation of the law, polygamy should be legal as well.

            You cannot simultaneously, create a new “right” for one class using equal protection as your guide and then restrict that same “right” to a separate class that you disagree with.

            Do you follow?

            Tthis is another reason why you are a lefty troll…you keep repeating your same argument believing that with repetition comes greater strength….it doesn’t.

            And yes you are a loser….but you are only 16…you have time to change that…although I highly doubt you will…you seem to have swallowed the lefty kool-aid in whole.

          • DONTREADONME

            hook line and sinker here, I was sixteen once and knew it all. The thing is I sounded just like him at 16 back in the 80′s, and I was a know it all. Maybe be we should let him take the rope, and you know what happens next.

          • Aaron Gardner

            I know…..I just can’t let one of these arguments just hang out in the open like this….I wasn’t as bad as this kid when I was young….but I was a big fan of Reagan when I was growing up…the guy was better than superman to me. I consider myself lucky for the early exposure.

            This kid will be lucky if he doesn’t end up living life on the dole…the sad part is he will gladly accept the soft slavery that is coming via the GIVE Act.

            I would show pity for him….but that would only confuse him.

          • DONTREADONME

            huge Reagan fan, I was saying my idealism at the age was the same. However, the frame of reference for my idealism was much different and based on the culture at the time and no where to the extreme that it is today. We did not even consider this an issue back in ’89 when I was 16 whoops 15. I am loosing track.

          • http://jeffemanuel.net Jeff Emanuel

            For now, go to your room.

          • DONTREADONME

            He is 16, he should really read and when he gets to his late 20′s and 30′s I suspect he will see the world differently. BTW, I read your profile Holy Credentials!

            I am thinking about using my name and posting my cred’s, I once did until the site changed over. Maybe when the USMC doesn’t option my Engineering contract in September, I will become a regular contributor here in the diaries on defense technologies, unfortunately now I can not talk to specifically. Anyway, it is nice to see someone with your creds is a moderator here.

          • Harold Vaughn

            in the real sense of the word, not a derogatory way, to think that people 2 to 5 times your age haven’t heard the bologna justification for gay marriage that you espouse.

            As Aaron G has told you below there is no constitutional way to move the marriage defining line to incorporate a specific sexual lifestyle without providing the same equal protections for other sexual lifestyle advocates. Your simpathy for the plight of gays is blinding your ability to see this reasoning, and therefore there is no room to convince you otherwise.

            You should learn very quickly that the posters on this site know what they are talking about much, much, much more than you do, and you would do well to heed their wisdom.

          • dwarfmama

            And if people become old and/or infertile, or decide after marriage to forego the blessings of childbearing, we allow them to STAY married. They still form a fundamental family unit.

            I don’t see any inconsistency with my standard. If you do, I submit that you have an imperfect understanding of what marriage is. It’s a whole lot deeper than “a promise of being with each other for the rest of their lives.” I speak from experience; I’ve been married 34 years.

            What benefits of marriage are not available to same-sex couples? I can’t think of any, besides filing jointly on tax returns (a dubious advantage, at best). Other privileges may require more paperwork, but there are ways to get there. What does it accomplish to redefine marriage to include same-sex couples?

          • Harold Vaughn

            for same sex marriage that I have ever read.

            You have provided no authority for your arguments to stand on other than: they’re not being treated fairly (equally), it’s what they want, and they are in love.

            Boo, hoo, cry me a river!

            Your ideology is undermining the value system that made our country great and that has been in place for 200 years because you feel sympathetic to the plight two same sex people feeling shafted by society, when we have gravely serious problems facing this nation. All I can say is, wow, how naive can someone be.

          • Harold Vaughn

            is a pandora’s box to which I don’t think you fully understand, nor want too. There is only one sexual lifestyle that benefits society, that is one man & one women, hince why we extend certain benefits to them as a society. Notice that I said “one” man & “one” woman.

          • Harold_Vaughn

            and the judiciary system to force incremental changes in public opinion through several covert means over the past several decades, and that this law is in fact part of that plan.

            What makes me extremely angry about this is how they get away with it while making the religious right look like the guilty party when in fact we are merely trying to protect certain values that our country has held dear for 2 centuries..

  • IJB
    • Aaron Gardner

      It is the government of the State that is a problem….Hopefully the GOP here is starting to get the picture…they only have 48 Republicans in the House.

      It really is odd to me, I just moved here and most of the people seem like they should be conservatives…or at least Republicans. Look at the absence of Gun regulation here.

      I just moved here last fall…give me a few years…maybe I can make a dent.

      • IJB

        In a Democracy, if the government is corrupt, it’s because the people are corrupt.

        Never forget that!

        CA is a garbage state (which I live in, BTW) because the majority of the people here are garbage (or, at least, hold garbage values, though I think that’s a distinction without meaning).

        I don’t have to go to VT, to know the same is true of VT.

        It’s time to stop coddling electoral populations, and call a spade a spade – the folks in most hard Blue States are just not good folks.

        The only way states like VT are ever going to get turned around is if a whole bunch of out-of-state conservatives move there. It sure won’t come from the people currently living there…

        • Aaron Gardner

          Of course the people elected the government…but the reality is that most of them are ignorant to what the Democrats really plan on doing. Their politics rarely match who they voted for. There is a disconnect that the State GOP is not working towards mending, at least not at any urgent pace.

          Like I said I just moved here…I getting involved and trying to spread a bit of southwestern libertarian conservatism. The lifestyles of many here should be open to that.

          • Skanderbeg

            So does that mean that you’ll be rolling up to Burlington for the annual Jefferson Day Dinner next Tuesday?

          • Aaron Gardner

            Hadn’t heard anything about that, what is it??

          • Skanderbeg

            Go here:

            http://www.ethanallen.org/home.html

            And click on “Coming Events” in the left-hand sidebar.

            Be there or be ….

          • Aaron Gardner

            I might actually be able to make that….I will email you if I am able to go.

        • Skanderbeg

          Actually, IJB, the jurisdictions that indulge in this sort of nonsense…. well, it’s all a dying wheeze emitted by dying jurisdictions.

          I’ll just borrow a more-private communication earlier and copy it here….

          ——–

          Having watched this kabuki garbage theatre for a number of years, I’ve come to the conclusion that foolishness like this is just one of the more salient hacking wheezes that is emitted by dying once-”western” jurisdictions.

          If you look at all those “tolerant” places in western Europe, they’re all dying in all the details that matter – median population ages, birthrates, negative employment growth, etc.

          Around here, Vermont is dying – literally. Depending on how one does the measurements it’s either the oldest or the second-oldest state in the country, it has (by far) the lowest birthrate in the country (it’s at a “Russian” level), and after a decade of 0% non-public-sector job growth, non-public-sector job “growth” (sic) for 2008 was -10%.

          These wheezes reflect a vacuum, into which something more robust will expand. In western Europe, we already know what that is (full-strength Wahhabi Islam). What it will be in the dying, depopulating backwater states remains an open question….

  • dld1717

    Seeing I love talk of politics I will say this; I do not think gay marriage is necessarily a winning issue for Republicans anymore.

    There is not doubt gay marriage is going to start spouting up in a lot more states and voters in many of them won’t really react harshly.