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Go Joe!! – American Hero Joe Arpaio Arrests Fifty Protesters At Own Jail.

America’s hero has more guts than all the Feds combined… and that includes MaoBama and the Marxist clown college, and you can throw his lame rear-ended administration into that mix for good measure. Joe Arpaio put an exclamation point to Arizona’s defiance of the Feds’ blatant abrogation of the Constitution and the state’s individual right to defend its citizens.

Illegals were bussed in from as far as Texas and California to demonstrate for non-existent ‘rights’ in our country. I guess La Raza couldn’t find enough local illegals to rabble rouse. Joe locked up 50 protesters from right on his own front porch, and has all the macho illegal tough guys in pink underwear, eating last weeks 20 cent baloney sandwiches. Joe then promptly sent out his troops to do an illegal alien sweep. Keep those cards and letters coming, Joe!

Thanks to Dee for filling in for me yesterday and another really excellent article. She did bring up a subject that is a recurrent theme in this business. By placing your thoughts and opinions out for public review and comment, especially when that content is opinionated and politically charged, you can and will become a target for criticism, especially from the malcontents of the left.

Let me say first that the overwhelming number of comments we receive from readers are positive and thoughtful. Then there are ‘the others’. I guess I can’t blame Dee for unloading on Mr Low-pez. It wouldn’t be so bad if he could speak and write English. However, it rather looks like if we removed the one word he can spell, he’d be the quietest individual in the room. From the vehemence of his attack, I’d guess that he’s probably one of Joe Arpaio’s clients.

We welcome responsible, thoughtful comment. Differences in opinion are what makes America great. The mental lockstep and group-speak of the left does nothing to advance public discourse and everything to diminish it. The left cannot exist in the presence of substantive ideas and therefore must resort to the type of comment Dee was referring to.
Name calling and foul language are the first and last resort of leftists and other things that crawl really low.

Semper Vigilans, Semper Fidelis

© Skip MacLure 2010

COMMENTS

  • SteveLA

    One of the neat things about YouTube is the other videos linked in. There was an even better video in one of the links. Sheriff Joe talks some common sense about his views on immigration in this other short interview.

  • Thane_Eichenauer

    is criminals whether legal residents or not. I can’t wait until people focus on crime and not faux crime like illegal entry to the US.

    http://www.google.com/search?q=Let+Them+In+by+Jason+L.+Riley

    • Achance
    • Doc Holliday

      this is what Republicans should be pushing. Who is against stopping the horrific narco terror on our borders? Well the answer is the same as for illegal immigration, seal the freaking border.

    • Doc Holliday

      in fact, he needs an action figure, teach our kids about the good guys.

    • tngal

      The problems are definately attributable to illegals. Increased crime is certainly one of the problems. The drugs, human smuggling, and the side crimes that go along with those like violence, thefts, etc. True these occur in all communities regardless of the population of illegals, but now there’s more of it, leaving us with overcrowded jails and overworked judges, DA’s, public defenders, court clerks, etc.

      It doesn’t stop with their added burden to our criminal justice system. We can no longer afford them . Their influx in such large numbers is staggering,

      In Education: When their children are in school, taxpayers are footing the bill for more and more teachers, books, desks, free lunches, rooms, and on and on. Its enough of a burden on this country right now to handle the remedial classes needed for legal children as well as ESL students whose parents have recently become legal through one of a myriad of ways already allowed.

      Jobs/Economy: There are llegal citizens who go daily to construction companies seeking jobs. Same with hotels and motels. When a legal citizen is denied a job because an illegal citizen has it, the whole country loses out. Money made by a legal citizen circulates more locally. When you have ten people splitting rent to keep costs down and then sending their savings or “disposable income” back across a border how has that helped us? When we spend more locally we improve the economy locally, so the local companies can hire more.

      Safety/Health: Pick up any paper and read about the latest illegal who had an auto accident. No insurance. Are their non-insured legal citizens? Absolutely. But the numbers would go down and with any luck so would our insurance premiums. As to health, the US had numerous contagious diseases under control but the flood of illegals has changed that as they bring illnesses and disease with them.

      Healthcare: There aren’t enough general doctor and nurse practitioners to meet the needs of legal citizens. Doctors have sought more luctrative specialties true and many have simply dropped out of practice due to their malpractice costs and our insurances not paying enough. Either way our health facilities are overburdened now with sprains and coughs and aches and bleeding. So less doctors, but more patients equals longer waiting times and less resources.

      Infrastructure: roads, sewer, potable water, electricity. Their added numbers put a larger burden on all these things. Especially in the border states.

      Security: With us not having a hermetically sealed border we run the risk every minute of letting somebody really dangerous into this country. They don’t all come in by place and some are homegrown. But the moer open we are the greater at risk we are.

      Pick a figure Thane, are there 7 million, 10, 15 million undocumented? Who knows? They don’t play the census game. But look at the burden that would be lifted from this country if the illegals left returning only to work for a limited length of time in small manageable amounts. and then returned to their respective countries when their visas ran out.

      Illegal entry is not a faux crime. Its a crime that perpetuates continuing problems on this country.

      • Thane_Eichenauer

        Education: Jose the gardener doesn’t force government to provide free government education, the modern day liberal does. If you want to eliminate government welfare in the form of free education do so but don’t blame Jose – he didn’t vote for it.

        Jobs: If your argument makes sense then I suppose you think Arizona should discourage people from moving here from New York, Colorado and California? So long as everybody pays their own way there are jobs out there for those who wish to work. I am far more worried about higher taxes outsourcing my job to the Phillipines than I am that Jose the illegal alien taking it. Once Jose has earned $100 dollars the money is his to spend on rent or to send to his family in Mexico. So long as he has earned it he gets to decide how to spend it.

        Safety: If Jose could get a government id card he would be able to buy auto insurance. As for contagious diseases if Jose hikes across the border because he can’t get in legally then he can’t be checked or excluded due to that condition. If Jose could check in at a border check point then there would be a chance for him to be identified.

        Health care: If you need a doctor and are willing to pay I guarantee that you will get a doctor.

        Infrastructure: Many of your assertions rest on the basis that the more people the less resources available as if people (legal or illegal) don’t pay taxes, don’t bring productivity to Arizona/the US and increase costs. Such is not the case.

        Security: Really? There is absolutely nobody who can truthfully promise a hermetically sealed border. I for one enjoy Herdez salsa (made in Mexico) and will fight for that salsa! Every 1,000 people the US allows in lawfully is 1,000 less people that need to be arrested by border patrol. That resource can then be used to find the dangerous people, not Jose the gardener. I assert the complete opposite – the more resources the US taxpayer spends on the Border Patrol to case Jose and Annabell the fewer resources that remain to catch Ahmed the fanatic.

        • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

          You cannot wave a magic wand and make the laws of supply and demand go away.

          Millions of low wage workers cause wages to stagnate, millions of poor people moving in increases poverty rates.

          More children increase costs of education, food stamps etc.

          Sure you can say well let’s get rid of those programs but that is not going to happen.

          If your argument is that we need more low wage workers then why fool around with Mexicans? we could import a crap load of really destitute Haitians and Zimbabweans.

          And why are you so hateful to non-Mexicans? You know, all the many people who do not have a huge open border, an infrastructure of people to help them, and an army of politicians and lawyers to protect them.

          Those people try to come in here legally and they get pushed aside because our politicians pander to the army of invaders from Mexico.

          • aesthete

            that the laws of supply and demand can’t be ignored in the worst way possible; namely, by the inculcation of lawlessness in illegals and the immigrant population at large, the tying of immigrants to the drug cartels and the seamy world of the illegal sex trade, lower reporting of crimes perpetrated against illegals, and general illicit behavior. I can’t imagine that legalized immigration for non-violent foreigners while pursuing a controlled border and cracking down on illegals henceforth would be much worse than the status quo.

          • JSobieski

            You can’t have open borders and government entitlements for the poor.

            Every time I reach the conclusion that I might be a libertarian, some issue like this pops up to remind me that I actually do base my policy positions on the real world, and it makes me realize that I am a conservative.

          • aesthete

            for barring immigrants from the public fund. Conservatives ran on it and succeeded in getting it through the 1996 welfare reform bill. It was later quietly suffocated by Democrats, but the general sentiment remains among voters, and entitlement reform wherein identification must be confirmed to receive these services is eminently doable. (More doable than entitlement scrapping, at any rate, and I haven’t seen too many conservatives complain about the unrealism behind what are, realistically and unfortunately, pipe dreams for the time being.)

            Let’s assume that I’m wrong and you’re right: under the welfare state, what would be the optimal number of immigrants? Would it be zero? Because even if it is (I would dispute it, given what immigrants add to the general fund through sales/property taxes), it is an impossibility for supply/demand reasons. States like California, with their overly-generous state services and seemingly limitless “compassion” with others’ money, would get screwed, to be sure, and hopefully the experience would accentuate the problems with an expansive patronage state. States like Texas, with good tax structures and limited benefits and little tolerance for immigrant malfeasance, would make like bandits (if bandits took to allowing and endorsing free enterprise and the rule of law :) ). At any rate, it’s bound to be better than spending the money on the law enforcement required to deal with the illegal aspect of illegal immigration.

          • Thane_Eichenauer

            then you are assuming freedom doesn’t work. A real world where conservatives start their day asking which government program can we eliminate is a real world I would love to see. A world where George W. Bush and his codependent Republican supporters increased government spending on Medicare spending is not the world I envision. Libertarians support a real world without government welfare spending – what real world is it that you are working to create?

          • JSobieski

            which is the premise of all the totalitarian regimes, including communism.

            If you want to have both self-government and a libertarian legal framework, you need to prevent people who don’t share you libertarian legal framework from entering the country. Otherwise, they will vote out your legal framework and replace it with what they want.

            As frustrated as we all are with the US government (and by extension, the US voter), I can assure you that in no other jurisdiction in the world are there as many libertarians as here.

            So an open borders policy will undermine the freedom you hope to create. The policy of freedom maximization (the goal of government) must take into account the reality that a lot of people will either purposefully or inadvertantly act against the very system that provides them with freedom.

            In other words, education and shared values are a presumption of such a system, and you will find little of that outside the US. Untill you propose for a detailed freedom-loving entry exam for admittance into the US, its had to take your approach to immigration policy seriously.

          • JSobieski

            but I am presuming what is undeniably true, that most of mankind does not live in societies that would be acceptable to you or me. You ignore the possibiity that the Constitutional framework of the US is immune to the beliefs of those who migrate here.

            Look at places like New Hampshire and Arizona. Despite the fact that many people who now live in New Hampshire have migrated from Massachusetts due to the tax policies of Massachusetts, those interstate immigrants still vote blue and drag New Hampshire leftward. Same is true for the California exiles in Arizona. Not everybody who moves to a new system embraces the new system. Many don’t see how the outcomes of the old system were in fact intrinsically related to the underlying values of the old system.

            What I am saying is that the Constitution is not a suicide pact. Constitutional rights apply to those people within the Constitutional framework. They do not apply to those outside the framework. A citizen from Mexico has no legal right to live in the US, to work in the US, or to obtain any kind of legal status in the US.

            If you give any person who can reach the US border the right to live, work, and vote here, then the US is going to become what the rest of the world already is—a place lacking in freedom. The economics and technology of 21st century travel are such that virtually anyone can find a way to get here if they know getting here means that they can stay.

            Again, libertarianism can work so long as it is limited to those inside the system and people outside the system do not have a “right” to get inside the system.

            In other words, in order for a libertarian framework to work, the people within the framework must have shared values in terms of freedom and limited government. The success fo such a system PRESUMES those shared values. Yet if you travel elsewhere—- even to “Western democracies” such as Canada, Germany, etc. you will find that people even there DON’T have the same viewpoint as government being in the freedom maximizing business. Throw in the despotic regimes, Sharia law immigrants, genuine marxists, et al. and you are looking at a mess.

            If you want a libertarian country, you need to limit entry to the country to those who have a libertarian view of government, and make their presence here contingent upon that continuing to be their view.

            Bottom line: I think you underestimate the degree to which most of the world is a hellhole. and the ease with which the US could be similarly transformed.

          • aesthete

            “If you give any person who can reach the US border the right to live, work, and vote here, then the US is going to become what the rest of the world already is

    • JSobieski

      the murder rate in NYC didn’t go down until the lower level crimes like vandalism was reduced. Rudy famously went after “broken windows” and the rest as they say is history.

      If people want to repeal laws, I am all for it. I am against the selective repealing of laws that is limited to the people who broke the law.

      • Thane_Eichenauer

        And if the police work to eliminate that I am all in favor. The problem I have is that illegal immigration apart from the secondary issues people bring up is not a crime. I don’t get harmed if Jose the Gardener hops over the border and moves my laws for 20% less than Phil the son of my neighbor. I don’t want laws prohibiting harm, fraud, damage or murder repealed but I do support repealing laws that divert time and energy away from real crimes.

        • janis

          Why do you think it’s called “illegal” then? Do you even read your OWN stuff?

          • JSobieski

            If illegally access your private information, so long as I don’t do anything with it, you won’t care?

            If I illegally violate a restraining order, you won’t care?

            I don’t think you have thought this through.

            As an FYI, people who wait their turn in line DO CARE when others cheat and go directly to the front of the line. Illegal immigration does have victims—those who obey the law.

          • Scope

            they all want to be “next.”

          • JSobieski

            As the son of immigrants who came here legally, and whose relatives find it difficult to get in the US for a vacation, I find the line cutters to be repugnant.

          • aesthete

            is throw out the union goons and corporate rent-seekers currently in charge of the process, and a complete revamp of the same. Literally no one is being served by the current process but those who don’t want labor undercutting their union strength, and the various tech lobbies who like having malleable labor on a leash with nowhere to go (a factor in the low wages that they are paid). All of our immigrations bureaus need to be scrapped, and everyone currently working for them has to resubmit their applications to be re-hired.

            Telling people to get in line, when the “line” in question is confusing and broken beyond repair, makes for a better slogan when we are paying attention to and addressing the issues with the line. Here’s a nice graphic illustrating but a few of the problems with the “line”.

          • JSobieski

            just as you and I are expected to pay our taxes, and otherwise comply with dumb rules/laws until they are changed, people “visiting” this country must do the same.

            There are many problems with the line, and yet so many people still follow the rules. NEVER benefit the rule breaker at the expense of the rule follower. When you incentivize lawlessness, you are striking a blow against the civilizing aspects of law, which in fact, is the entire purpose of having laws.

          • aesthete

            In some cases, particularly on the tail end, malum prohibitum holds less true. You agree with me, you just don’t know that you do yet :) Here are a few examples where you and I probably agree:

            Lech Walesa, the iconic founder of Solidarity in Poland, the non-Communist trade union, violated many laws against forming a non-Communist trade union, or otherwise competing against the one-party state. A follower of malum prohibitum would have said, post-Cold War, that Lech, regardless of how admirable and right the struggle under which he broke the law, should receive the punishment accorded to those crimes.

            Our Founding Fathers were quite the roguish scoundrels, breaking English ordinances right and left. Many Tories argued that law and order had to be established in the colonies, regardless of cost, based on malum prohibitum argumentation. The Tories, despite having obeyed those statutes, were mostly worse off than the lawbreakers by the end of the Revolutionary War! Was that fair to those who followed the statutes, no matter how silly they were?

            Anti-miscegenation laws enacted in several states held that blacks shouldn’t marry whites. After the law was repealed, would it have been fair to the blacks who followed those statutes to allow violators of the law to go off scot-free?

            Ultimately, granting amnesty to those who broke the law is always going to be unfair to both those who were already punished for breaking the law, and to those who followed the law faithfully. There are some circumstances under which such unfairness is justified, and I hew broadly to these to three questions in ascertaining the justification for any sort of “amnesty”:

            1) Does the group of lawbreakers in question have a venue for which to seek change? In the case of the Founders, blacks under anti-miscegenation laws, and our friend Lech, there was no such representation. In the case of illegals and immigrants in general, the same holds true: while Democrats like to pontificate on the plight of illegals from their fainting couches to get some applause and cheap votes from the multi-culti crowd, they are even more willing than Republicans to throw illegals and immigrants in general under the bus when trade and construction unions come calling.

            2) Are the lawbreakers in question hurting anyone by virtue of their actions? In the case of Lech, the Founders, and blacks, it was quite the contrary: by breaking the law, they were making someone’s life better; the blacks getting married were making their spouses happy, the Founders and those who followed them, with their non-compliance with British mandate, were doing an unalloyed good for the population that was liberated from the onerous burdens placed on them by their masters across the sea, and Lech’s circumventing of the Soviet system did not hurt other workers in and of itself. Likewise, immigrants don’t hurt anyone by virtue of being illegal immigrants, and in fact are an unalloyed good in the industries where they work. Using illegal immigration as a proxy for crime, likewise, doesn’t work: most studies estimate the % of illegals who commit property crime to be around ten percent, which leaves ninety percent of illegals as law-abiding.

            3) Is the law being followed a just one? Does it have malevolent intentions at its heart, or otherwise lead to overly malevolent outcomes? This one’s a tough one, as it mostly involves the motivations of lawmakers: a tricky proposition, to be sure. To do a quick end run and shorten a long post, Soviets bad, racists bad, British bad (but not to the extent of the other two). In my opinion, immigration law is a borderline case: since the 60s, it has been structured to serve various unions at the expense of the American people and prospective immigrants, has served to slam in the doors of a country that was and is, in many ways, defined as a beacon for the world’s downtrodden, and which continues to en-trammel those lucky few or skilled who get in. Such an attack on an aspect of our national character and valuing of unions’ fiduciary interests over the economy and mutual benefits provided by immigrants is, in my opinion, repellent, though one’s mileage may vary on this point.

            Viewed holistically and pragmatically, I think that there’s a good case that this is one such tail-end case, though I’ll grant you that it’s not as bad as the aforementioned examples. The best thing we can do to rectify the unfortunate fairness deficit that would result is to simplify the rules for the immigrants waiting in line, not screwing the ones currently here while doing nothing for our hopelessly broken system.

            I yield to malum prohibitum as a good rule besides those tail cases; recently in AZ, for example, we discontinued our lovely speed cameras program. The reason? Over 2/3rds of those cited as having committed an infraction didn’t pay the fine allotted. I disagreed with the speed cameras, but I do think that those individuals who haven’t paid should be made to do so, even if it’s expensive for the state. One can hardly set malum prohibitum as a rule for illegals while not making citizens follow this same maxim.

          • Thane_Eichenauer

            Just as I don’t believe that Otis McDonald would be a criminal if he bought a pistol and used it to protect his home and person.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonald_v._Chicago

            What part of illegal pistol possession don’t you understand?

        • http://www.redstate.com/tnjim TNJim

          but first, a little education, Thane. Real crimes are doing something illegal. Entering the country illigally is thus a crime.

          I will now abide by the Hinz rule and apologize to the moderators for feeding the troll.

          • tngal

            Maybe not a troll, but a Ronulan. Check the ears. They’re the clincher.

          • http://www.redstate.com/tnjim TNJim

            I’ve since heard many of them met the blamstick, too.

            Lol at “check the ears”.

          • Scope

            as I posted on another diary, Thane said that- Ron Paul is the best candidate, but, the voters just don’t know it. He is a Paulbot, and one of the wacko ones.

          • tngal

            eartags or something. For crying out loud they’re almost indistinguishable from rational people. I know, I know, constant vigilance. I’m working’ on it.

          • Scope

            Kudos to you.

          • Thane_Eichenauer

            Real crime: being mugged on the subway due to government gun prohibition
            Crime: Being prohibited from doing that which would otherwise be the peaceful act of keeping and bearing arms.

        • mbecker908

          And you’ve been busily vandalizing Redstate all day.

          • Thane_Eichenauer

            Thane Eichenauer
            Thought criminal – guilty of posting comments that other people disagree with

            I certainly hope that redstate comment hecklers don’t turn this place into a red version of BlogForArizona.

            http://www.google.com/search?q=site:blogforarizona.com+troll

          • janis

            So far that’s the one thing you’re blameless on.

        • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

          if you cannot see how much you are being hurt. Higher taxes, higher crime, more corruption, More poverty and all it’s pathologies.

          No, to the ideologue all you can see is what someone told you, not the reality of the situation.

    • aesthete

      but not for the reasons others have cited: victimless crimes in the interest of protecting the idea of sovereignty can sometimes be useful. For example, a foreign national entering a sensitive US facility may not violate anyone’s rights, and a foreign national with a gun does not, either, but in both cases there is merit in establishing protocols surrounding them.

      That said, the book that you link to is actually an excellent resource if you’re a “wide gate, tall fence” type like I am, though the cover’s title and subtitle are misleading (the case made is not for “open borders”; I suppose it was bad/”shocking” marketing, as the book is written from the point of view of a free-market conservative).

      • Thane_Eichenauer

        I don’t see why a Swiss national with a gun or a Canadian with a gun should be scrutinized any more than a guy from New Jersey with a gun. The risk factor isn’t where the person was born. If I were to judge risk factors I would say that most immigrants have a lower risk to the general public than people born in the US.

        • aesthete

          The military, by definition and mission, systematically discriminates against foreigners. Our immigration laws discriminate against certain types of foreigners. Our system of law discriminates against foreigners by not extending to them Constitutional protections, particularly in their home countries. Virtually every aspect of the state is tailored around the idea of selective discrimination in favor of citizens. I agree with you that the economic arguments against illegal immigrants are mostly bunk (as well as some of those concerning taxes). I’ll be a prince of a guy and give you the national security argument that conservatives make (which I find to be exaggerated, but valid). Hey, I want as many non-violent immigrants as you can throw at us (with the caveat that they don’t receive the benefits of our entitlements system, which should be dismantled anyways). Even with all of that generously conceded, I don’t see how one can maintain a sovereign state without at least some control over a border shared with a dysfunctional state on the verge of civil war, localism, or anarchy.

          • Thane_Eichenauer

            The modern day US Army certainly discriminates against foreigners (save those that are US Army soldiers) – is that a good thing? Modern day immigration law discriminates against foreigners – is that a good thing? There is much modern day government that discriminates against foreigners – is that a good thing? I say it is not. I don’t think Mexico is at risk of anarchy (chaos certainly but not anarchy). Mexico is certainly in a state of unrest (call it civil war if you will) caused by drug prohibition.

            If I as a private person want to discriminate against foreign goods or foreign people so be it but the government should be neutral and allow all peaceful activities to pass under its baleful eye.

          • aesthete

            It’s that all of these will by their very nature. If you support a limited state, as I do, and one that is obligated to protect only the rights of its citizens, you support mass discrimination against foreigners by governmental institutions. There will never be parity between foreigner and citizen under any state, and that is rightly so. (I assume that you’re some form of libertarian in my responses; if you are an anarchist, I suppose there is no contradiction in what you say, and in that case you are simply hopelessly idealistic.) In the US, we’re lucky enough to have a process by which a foreigner can become one of us; that’s a good thing. In between the visa issuing and the citizenship ceremony, he’s not going to be treated as one of us. The treatment of foreigners is a balancing act, but one that should ultimately be decided by US citizens. One of the options not on the list (and which will never be on the list) is for foreigners to be afforded all of the privileges associated with being a citizen, and that’s what you’re not getting.

          • JSobieski

            It is against the law in most instances for discrimination on the basis of citizenship. When states try to do so, the federal court system generally slaps them around.

        • Doc Holliday

          are scrutinized quite extremely in their own paradise.

          • Thane_Eichenauer

            And all the more reason that those who think Canada to be a paradise should visit it so as to apply the maxim “the proof of the pudding is in the eating”.

          • mbecker908

            immigration laws.

          • Thane_Eichenauer

            Because goodness knows that those laws have created _such_ a high standard of living in Mexico (not).

    • JSobieski

      If y ou want to change the immigration laws (and who doesn’t), go through the front door of the legislative process. Using the back door of non-enforcement has a corecive impact on civilization.

      If you want to maximize freedom, you (1) minimize the laws to cover what is necessary but (2) fully enforce the laws that are on the books. If you don’t do BOTH (1) and (2), you are not maximizing freedom.

      • aesthete

        While we’re on the subject, let it be recognized that there are some ostensibly on our side who don’t employ #1 for various reasons, and who should be repudiated by the right. Moreover, there are some who refuse to employ #1 in an objective fashion because of inherent biases; mostly, this includes the nativist crowd and those who oppose all immigration, ostensibly under a conservative banner, like Mark Krikorian (one of the few public figures I’d consider xenophobic or even racist). Law and order is only as useful as the law that is being followed, and a law that is unnecessarily burdensome, unfair or lachrymose is not a law that will be followed, at any rate.

        • JSobieski

          I refute the assertion that the number of conservatives against immigration per se is significant. There are always outliers, but in a country where 9% of the people think Obama will cut taxes and 25% of the people think 9/11 was an inside job, I don’t think racist/xenophobic conservatives merits even a mention.

          There is one big exception to the application of libertarian principles in the real world. That exception is people/countries outside the libertarian system. Whether the issue is immigration, foreign policy, or war, any attempt to purposeful handcuff ourselves to rules in dealing with people who are a threat to the system itself (either purposely or inadvertantly).

          You invite socialist refugees who have not disowned socialism into the country en masse, you will have a socialist country. If you ever succeed in implementing an libertarian utopia here in the US, it will last exactly one day as all sorts of foreigh powers and foreign peoples come here and use the freedom of our system to destroy our system.

          • qixlqatl

            But good luck getting through to a committed Libertarian. My experience is that they are just not willing to hear that their magical elixir isn’t a viable cure for all the ills of government.

          • aesthete

            but for the fact that these “conservatives” are often given forums at various conservative venues from which to spout their nonsense: Mark Krikorian has a column at National Review, and Pat Buchanan one at HumanEvents. They have the right to say what they want, much as leftists do, but I’d rather not have them say it on the conservative dime or in a conservative publication on a regular basis. Yeah, the left is worse (Mikey Moore’s a testament to that fact), but we shouldn’t be in the business of emulating the left.

            On the issue of handcuffing, and the general sentiment that “the Constitution is not a suicide pact”, what always strikes me is how unlike “suicide” the permissal of the alleged offense being tolerated is to suicide or handcuffing. There are some instances in which libertarian principles need to be revisited or suspended (there’s a reason I’m “libertarian leaning”), but the cases where conservatives have recently elected to ignore their commitment to freedom from the Bush administration onwards have been rather lacking in the substance needed to justify such suspensions. Typically, these phrases are invoked to arbitrarily determine the value of a particular usage of freedom, and its level of acceptability, rather than to defend against an existential threat to the US, as should be the case in suspensions of my liberties, or those of others. I highly doubt both that the immigration laws on the books are defending us from impending socialist migration and societal collapse (at the very least, ICE should have politely informed the 20+ million illegals here that the laws prohibit immigrants from socialist countries from coming on over), and I dispute the idea that current political affiliation (especially in countries in Latin America, where rule by aristocracy, intimidation, and junta still prevails in large measure) is indicative of how they’ll do or vote here. Certainly, immigrants from Germany weren’t too keen on setting up a continental-style monarchy in the US, nor were the Eastern Europeans itching to establish their own tsardoms or duchies on the continent. (At any rate, citizenship is a wholly different bag of rice.)

      • Thane_Eichenauer

        I presume you meant to use the word corrosive.

        Fully enforcing a counterproductive law doesn’t maximize freedom. If the government had a law preventing an American from keeping and bearing a pistol to protect his person how does that maximize anybodies freedom?

        • dajeeps

          I’m a real fan of constitutional order because it theoretically answers so many questions. People are confused now because we’re so far out in the weeds from it that it makes ordinary, straight foreward question complex.

          First, the second and fourteenth amendments mean that there is no constitutional basis for gun prohabition. Yes, governments at all levels tried it and it stuck for a while, and law abiding citizens, as most of us are, followed them until we could get SCOTUS to actually read the amendments and interpret them in the plain way they are written. Why did we follow it? Because we are respectful of the Republic, a governemnt of laws and not of men. If the rule of law breaks down, the republic cannot long survive.

          The second part of the argument is that immigration regulation is provided by the constitution as a power of congress. That means that congress sets the rules, not the President. The law that governs immigration states that coming here without having followed the procedure to come here legally is a crime. Whether some like it or not, it is certainly a crime.

          There are proper ways to change the laws we don’t like, but not liking them is not a sufficient reason to ignore them. The law says what it says until it says somethng else. We would not have such a urgent problem with it if it had been enforced as it was intended.

          But for more insight into the main problem is that the electorate was duped into accepting amnesty on the grounds that tougher immigration laws would be enforced and it was supposed to be the end of the problem, but now it is far worse than 20 years ago. Many are no longer willing compromise this time around and I think it’s going to be an huge uphill battle convincing the general public to let people stay here simply because they made it here without getting caught. It just isn’t going to happen. It’s not that we’re cold and cruel. It’s because we’ve been crapped on and lied to by those who are supposed to represent us way too much and we’ve had it.

          • Thane_Eichenauer

            Bad laws should always be ridiculed, ignored and resisted. If elected officials have mistreated We the People why should I allow that to be a reason I support the mistreatment of people who have never voted?

            I don’t see any wording in the US Constitution that authorizes congress to deport people.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_I_of_the_US_Constitution#Enumerated_powers

  • bk

    He didn’t arrest people for protesting. He arrested them for deciding to break the law instead of protesting orderly.

    I hope they left the people “piped” together like that in the jail cell. I bet that would have been fun.

  • tngal

    Ordinarily Thane, I wouldn’t get this disgusted at a guy I didn’t know, but you deserved special treatment and Redstate has a clean rule.

    • qixlqatl

      I think I’ve seen that before, but not very often

      • tngal

        its an Orbit’s gum ‘clean mouth’ commercial. A woman meets up with hubby and his mistress. Given the circumstances there would be dirty words all over the place. But they have gum that gives them clean mouths. The inflections by the actors make lint licker and cootie queen really stand out in the spot. The gist of the conversation is:

        You son of a biscuit eating bulldog
        What the french toast?
        Did you think I would not find about your little doo doo head cootie queen!
        Who are you calling a cootie queen, you lint licker?
        Pickle you QomQuat.
        Your overreacting
        No, Bill over reacting was when I put your convertible into a wood chipper Stinky Mc Stink face
        You Hoboken

        • qixlqatl

          but I bet it’s a hoot :)

          • tngal

            type “lint licker” in google. you’ll get the spot. Lasts about 15 seconds or so. That whole set of Orbits “clean mouth” spots are kinda different.

          • qixlqatl

            That was pretty good, and I like the gum, too :)

  • tsummers

    Joe’s the best sheriff in the country! At least everyone knows where he stands.

    Stop welfare, government freebies, anchor child nonsense who automatically get their “caregiver” free Us government money, and many of the illegals would never come here and many others would go home.

    http://buyladybugs.net/green-lacewing-eggs-1000-per-container