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What is marriage? Gov Christie vetoes “same sex marriage bill”.

Good for Gov. Christie. There remains hope that there is a place in the Republican party for people of principle. Maybe not in Washington, but that is another discussion. I want to discuss what marriage is and how we can protect it.

I want to approach this from a different point of view. One that doesn’t rely on religious belief. One that is based purely on an analysis of the logic behind why a society allows government involvement in the relations between two consenting adults. From a purely civic point of view marriage is a contract between two consenting adults and the government. What is unique about marriage is that last part, “and the government”.  Lets see what this means.

First we need to understand something about regular legal partnerships. Two consenting adults of any sex can enter into a contract partnership without approval by the government. Two consenting adults can engage in intimate relations without government interference. Two adults can own property in common; they can acquire, benefit from, and dispose of assets held in common; they can exchange powers of attorney, and they can designate each other beneficiary of insurance policies, and in many states they can declare a “life-partner” who will be treated to the same employee benefits extended to a spouse. In short, with proper legal documentation they can create a framework covering all the benefits of marriage without approval from the government. Like all partnerships it ends with the death of one of the partners and the assets become the property of the other partner. Taxes ramification can be offset by insurance.  Further, if the partners decide to end the partnership (for any reason) the government will adjudicate any dispute over distribution of assets and liabilities based on the provisions of the contract.

So in short, the government has a system in place to provide people with the ability to enter into a partnership that provides all the legal protections of a marriage, without the strings and without advanced approval. So what makes “marriage” unique?

Marriage is a contract between two consenting adults of the opposite sex, and the government representing the interests of an unknown number of potential interested minor third parties, interests that survive the termination of the partnership.

We call the interested third parties children.

This is what makes marriage different from any other contract. First, there are potentially interested parties that otherwise do not exist, that might be introduced into the partnership through intimate relations between the partners and standard partnership is not designed for this situation. A standard partnership does not “automatically extend” to additional partners and as minors they do not meet the qualifications to be “consenting adults”. Further, unique to a marriage contract is that the interest of the children survives the termination of the contract. In all partnerships once the partnership is dissolved, there are not further obligations on the partners. But marriage is different because the offspring retain a claim against both partners that continues even after the contract has been dissolved. It is this claim and the rights of these children that brings the government into the agreement in advance. The government is there to protect the interests of the minors, not the interests of the adults.

Same sex couples cannot introduce children into the the partnership through monogamous intimate relations. Therefor there is no risk that a same sex marriage will introduce “interested third parties’ and no reason for the government to go to the expense to “provide protection” for children.

There is the argument that couples can adopt. Any couple can adopt as can single people in many places. But adoption has it’s own legal structure to protect the interests of the minors involved and therefore does not require the unique provisions of the marriage contract. In addition it must be recognized that one or both members of a lesbian partnership can produce children. Not through intimate relations between the partners, but by the introduction of breading material from a third party how ever that may be achieved. The government has a very clear stance on extra-marital relationships that produce offspring. The obligation falls on the biological parents. The government treats any relationship, however brief or transient that results in the birth of an offspring as a contract and gives the offspring rights that survive the termination of the contract.

So, in summary, marriage is a unique legal construct for the express purpose of providing protection to the unborn children that result from a declared partnership that involves an intimate relationship between two people of the opposite sex.

Religion and cultural beliefs distract from the basic legal purpose for government involvement. While they enhance the lives and relationships of the parties involved they only serve as a distraction from the basic debate over the meaning of marriage and laws intended to change the definition of a marriage contract.

Personally I don’t care what relationships two people have, regardless of sex of the partners. But I do not believe it is in the best interest of society to deny the basic premise of marriage as legal protection for offspring produced by the intimate relations between a man and a woman in a monogamous relationship. Even if that does result in an inferior status for any other form of relationship.

SolvoReor

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COMMENTS

  • westcoastpatriette

    The main problem with it, though, is the homosexual movement is not interested in being reasonable in their push for same-sex marriage.

    For them, it will be a feather in their cap and a finger in the eye of those who hold traditional mores as foundational to a strong moral society when they win the right to marry.

    They want approval, acceptance and respect — whether you like it or not — and are unwilling to accept your sensible explanation for why they do not need marriage to have equal legal protections for partnerships under the law. That is why we call them militant in their endeavors. It is their way or no way.

    • WmCraig

      First off, I find this interesting and no I am saying you are wrong. I remember when “acceptance” meant compliance. To be acceptable in 1970 meant certain behavior requirements. For example, a landlord could be fined for renting an apartment to a male and female that were not married in many communities.

      With government approval comes the natural inclination of government regulation.

      This type of acceptance makes no sense for the gay and lesbian community. During my lifetime individuals struggled to remove government interference in personal lifestyles. Any activity the government approves is an activity that can be regulated.

      There are two reasons I bring this up at this time. The Obama campaign will use it to distract people from important matters during this election cycle. It will be a great source of fund raising as well, if you can call the extortion process that the Obama campaign engages in “fund raising”. It is no accident that the New Jersey Legislature passed this bill at this time.

      The second thing is that anyone that takes a step back can see this is about power and influence. What benefit does a gay or lesbian couple have in marriage? One of them has power over the other, though how that will work out in the divorce courts is yet to be resolved. New Jersey is an alimony state. Do Gay and Lesbian couples really want to grant government control over their finances? Why would the government be interested in gaining control and influence over gay and lesbian unions? Say what you will that is what will happen because government cannot avoid regulating everything. The evidence is all around us and in the case of the Obama record it is a regulatory nightmare on steroids.

      I can’t image any intelligent person would want increased government intervention and regulation in their personal life, especially someone who has had to fight for decades for the right to even be different without risk of criminal penalties.

      The point is this. There are ways to protect the definition of marriage without resorting to condemnation of the GLBT community. And many of them do make sense, or have emotional appeal that is hard to refute.

      As soon as the Obama machines starts work on Christie painting the Republicans with the broadest of brushes, it would be nice if once our side got their head out of their afterburner and were prepared with an argument that would make the GLBT community take pause, and make the Obama community looks stupid.

      I suspect starting Monday we are all going to be painted as racist, bigoted, homo-phobes, because I seriously doubt the Red wing will be prepared any more than they have for every other attack.

      • westcoastpatriette

        The power being sought is the power of the government to force acceptance of the homosexual lifestyle on the rest of us who find their relationships unacceptable or even repugnant. There is a perverted desire to place their predicament on a par with civil rights and in their deceived way of thinking, they are being discriminated against and are demanding that the government force society to accept and approve of them. Which is absurd, in my opinion, and they will never succeed.

        They would do well to accept that they will never be accepted — and that is a normal reaction from most normal people.

    • roberthawk

      Homosexual behavior is un-natural and will never be acceptable or respected among the majority of people. Homosexuality a sickness just as alcoholism and drug dependence, are a sickness. There is simply no reason to accept or respect a mental sickness such as any of these as normal behavior. Even the wild animals do not engage in homosexual behavior. Observe them for your yardstick if you need to. However, do not attempt to force the acceptance of a sickness upon the entire of the American population. Homosexuality is wrong and it will always be wrong. There is simply nothing anyone can do to make it right or acceptable.

      Hollywood can produce all the movies and TV shows it wants to, governments can abuse the law of the land to establish all of the faux relationships it can muster. Where does it end? When do we accept dogs and people as a family or other animals and people? If we continue down this pathway of accepting any perverse sexual act, where is the end? How ridiculous are we willing to become in the quest for lewd sexual behavior and its merit through marriage?

      The fact remains that homosexuality is un-acceptable behavior, and the majority of people will never accept it as anything more.

  • zachv

    From what I understand, your argument is that marriage is a unique legal construct for the express purpose of protecting resulting unborn children. It seems to me that you’d believe the statement, “Marriage is the best legal protection society can provide to offspring.”

    However, you seem to ignore the fact that same-sex couples adopt. Quite a bit in fact.

    The 2011 census shows that 20% of gay households (~115,000 households) have children of which 85% are the children’s biological parents. Lamda Legal puts estimates between 6-10 million gay parents in the US — most through heterosexual relationships — but with a increasing amount from adoption, foster care, artificial insemination and surrogacy.

    What about those children? All other children should benefit from the legal contract of marriage except the offspring of gays and lesbians? You say that legal adoption provides protections. It does, but not as well as marriage.

    If we cared about our children. If our goal in marriage was to provide legal protection to *all* children and not just the unborn offspring of heterosexual couples, same-sex marriage would be legalized. Why should only one group of children benefit from the legal protections of marriage and not the other?

    • WmCraig

      You are attempting to distort the discussion, or bring in a red herring.

      First off, you do not need to care about my children and children that are in “other relationships” are not your children either. It is not your obligation to care about them, and quite bluntly you are dangerous if you think the government system should assume that responsibility for you so you can say your doing something about “our” children. I have seen what the system does.

      There are no legal protections for children in marriage, none that cannot be accomplished through other measures. Marriage imposes legal obligations on the parents. The purpose of the government being involved “to protect the interests” of the children is so they can impose alimony, child support, punitive damages, financial constraints, behavioral constraints, and all the other lovely things that governments can do to individuals who are powerless to stop them. It is all about that “rights that survive the end of the partnership” issue.

      The government doesn’t take an interest in children in marriage until either they are suddenly forced to do so by observed abuse or until the marriage dissolves. Then the entire process becomes one of imposing government mandates on the adult individuals and applying government process to deciding the best interests of the children. If you think marriage is so great ask the children of a divorce just how great it is. Government makes everything more difficult, more expensive and less effective. Ending a relationship included. And sorry, but you don’t get marriage without divorce.

      Why would the GBLT community willing support this power grab, surrendering control to the government over their actions, there finances and allowing the government to pry into their personal behavior when for the last fifty years they have been struggling to get free of government intervention? That makes no sense to me.

      The question is who is really driving this power grab to undo fifty years of fighting for individual rights?

      There is no benefit to changing the definition of marriage, other than to dilute it to the point where it can no longer provide any protection that is not available by eliminating it altogether. So if you are really interested in protecting children you will concentrate on building up the protections in other non-marriage relationships instead of working to dilute the meaning and therefor the protections in marriage

      • zachv

        Is completely based upon defending the institution for other people’s children. When you say, “First off, you do not need to care about my children and children that are in

        • GregInFla

          Because that charter school is not chartered by the federal government. The parents should have adoption papers noting they are parents and legal guardians.

      • http://www.gmsplace.com/ civil truth

        …by those who claim to be in favor of sexual liberty – that the consequence will be a massive increase in government power over children – ultimately putting the state in charge of their upbringing.

  • Viet71

    Seems to me the joining of two into one: biologically, emotionally, perhaps spiritually in the particular case. A civil union, seems to me, if properly constructed by law, would or could be just like marriage except for the biological (reproductive) part.

    Reproduction of the species has been humanity’s #1 issue since the beginning. Too few humans for thousands or hundreds of years. Now, in some places, where laws, governments, and resources are thin, the people are too thin.

    Why take a term — marriage — and distort its meaning?

    I know why. It’s not about laws, tax or otherwise; they can be changed and fixed. It’s about getting Americans to accept finally and for all purposes that Gays are just like everyone else. It’s about distorting reality.

    Gays are different, and society is better for it. New York City would not be New York City without the large, talented Gay contingent there.

    So why not celebrate Gays. They enrich our culture, and more.

    But “marriage” is an old, old term, with lots of meaning. Keep it out of the celebration, IMO.

    • zachv

      But they still can’t partake in marriage? Marriage is a beautiful institution that (like I’ve said before) honors commitment, fidelity, equal status between partners, public recognition, etc. It’s an old term, but it’s not at all a static tradition.

      It’s been everything from a solely economic and political institution that had nothing to do with love or children to one that’s become focused on just those things. We’ve had everything from teenaged daughters in arranged marriage, to interracial couple fighting tooth and nail to have gov’t recognize their love.

      Why not change it?

      Gays want to get married! They want to be in loving, caring long term relationships that are legally recognized! Why deny them that right? That love? That commitment!

      • Viet71

        If marriage were simply a cultural institution, I’d say, sure.

        Agreed, marriage over the years has had cynical and political dimensions. That’s because it’s a relationship with potentially profound consequences in terms of offspring. Marie Antoinette was about producing a male heir. Loving v. Virginia was rooted in a blind concern over mixed race children.

        Marriage is not some political, legal, cultural construct when examined historically. It is rooted in Cro Magnon (“caveman”) behavior, which was aimed at propagation of the species.

        Given that marriage is mainly about (responsible) reproduction, I ask that you make a stronger case, if you can.

        • zachv

          As I’ve put it before you, gays can and do raise children. Be that adoption, surrogacy or artificial insemination. To deny gay men and women the right to marry denies the children of gay parents any responsible reproduction.

          Simply put: if the propagation of the species is your litmus test for marriage, gay relationships pass your test with flying colors.

          • Viet71

            Children need love, trust, and safety.

            Raising a child is different from reproduction.

            Reproduction historically, from society’s standpoint, has been the province of heterosexual marriage. Yes, I know about love children and bastards, a terrible term.

            I’m on your side. Except as to language and history.

      • Jack_Savage

        If you need government to do that for you, then you are barking up the wrong tree. It is about affirming and celebrating same sex marriage, and forcing others to do the same, against their conscience.

        If we allow gay couples to marry, why not allow polygamy? Why not allow me to marry my brother? Why not, why not, why not?

        If marriage is everything, then it is nothing, and that is exactly the point and purpose of the gay community on this issue.

        • WmCraig

          Very well put.

          A square is a rectangle, but not all rectangles are squares.

          One of the points is that Marriage as a term defines a subset of relationships based on specific characteristics of the participants, and has unique potential that differentiates it from other relationships.

        • zachv

          Not only does government grant over 1,000+ rights as couples, but it acts as social insurance and an institution for companionship. What are our vows that we make to one another?

          “… through sickness and health, in good times and bad … ”

          Marriage serves as an institution that allows us to take care of one another, to raise children and — if you want to be purely economic about it — keep us off the governmental dole. Marriage ought to be encouraged in all of society, gay and straight, and its why gays men and women want to be married, to have help raising their children and for compassion and companionship. Denying them that privilege is downright unconservative.

          • Jack_Savage

            “Marriage serves as an institution that allows us to take care of one another, to raise children and

          • zachv

            Honestly. It’s not gays that are destroying marriage: You’ve reduced the institution of marriage to another method of making babies. What kind of argument is that? … “If gays want have marriage, I’ll attack and demean marriage just so they can’t have it?”

            The claim of opponents is that gays will destroy marriage. That’s not true! Gays are human beings too! They love and live just as much as you. They raise children just like you and your wife and wish to partake in companionship and this social institution as well!

            There’s nothing wrong with being gay. There’s nothing to ‘accept’ about gay relationships, because there’s nothing bad about them in the first place! What kind of thinking do you have to have to look down on another man and woman and degrade them for nothing other than them being different?

          • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

            .

          • zachv

            What exactly is it that I don’t get?

          • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

            ..

          • Bill S

            .

          • jakeofalltrades

            Also, God and the nature of man.

          • westcoastpatriette

            This is a conservative site that upholds Judeo-Christian ethics, zachv. Just what are you hoping to accomplish by trying to convince everyone here that you are normal and not doing anything wrong?

            You sound like an impetuous child demanding to be allowed to engage in disgusting behavior. Please go some place else if you are looking for sympathy and acceptance. I, personally, am tiring of listening to you whine about how normal you are and how mean we are being because we think your desire to marry someone of the same sex is debauchery. Has anyone ever told you you are a selfish little imp? You are. And we completely reject your attempts to degrade marriage and undermine morality — all in the name of civil rights. Get a life. Repent. Shut up already.

          • zachv

            I firmly believe that there needs to be a voice to heal the divide. This is a conservative site that upholds Judeo-Christian values, that’s for certain! But I’m unwavering in my belief that gay marriage and homosexuality does not conflict with Judeo-Christian values no matter how much spite or hate I get for that belief.

            Just look at the numerous Christian denominations that have come out and endorsed gay marriage. Almost every mainstream Protestant denomination has done so, and inroads are being made into Evangelical as well. It’s amazing.

            And yeah, I personally am also tired of you burying your head in the sand. I’m gay, but I’m a conservative too, and I can’t say that I didn’t struggle with my homosexuality myself or oppose gay marriage at another point in time. But mirroring my own personal journey, I took my independent Baptist roommate from ‘Gays will burn in hell’ to someone who actively supports gay marriage. People evolve and I trust that Redstaters are just as able to do so. Especially given how you and I think alike, value the same things, and have similar ideologies. :)

          • westcoastpatriette

            is the gulf that separates heaven from hell. And never shall the twain meet.

          • Bill S

            you’re kidding yourself. We ain’t buying what you’re selling.

          • zachv

            There’s going to be no revelatory moments, but even slightly bettering the ‘negative’ attitude towards even civil unions is a goal worth achieving.

            Look, gay marriage and acceptance of gay men and woman is going to be an issue solved by time. I’m 21–my peers support gay marriage by something like 70%, which is why I find the “Gay marriage is ONLY about acceptance” to be a pretty silly charge. My generation accepts gays (the co-leader of my College Republicans was gay) … but my parents and grandparents?

            When I “grow up” this isn’t going to be an issue. What matters now is whether the Baby Boomers will change their views before the next generation takes the reins from them.

          • http://www.gmsplace.com/ civil truth

            …the trend line certainly is headed towards legalizing SSM.

            But you will find that when you gain your prize, it will soon turn to ashes. And the State will reign supreme.

      • WmCraig

        Marriage is NOT a “beautiful institution” it is a legal definition. That is not to say the relationship between two people that develops coincidentally with marriage is not beautiful.

        Only that beauty, fidelity, equality, etc are not a reason to ignore a reasonable legal distinction. Further, government intervention in a relationship does not “improve beauty”.

        First, I admire that your idea of marriage is beautiful. I had an employee who worked for me once, a 16 year old girl that would argue with you. She was married to a Iranian college student. It meant that, no matter what she could never leave the USA. She explained it was a financial transaction that gave her parents the money she would need to attend college. Of course, her “marriage” would be recognized everywhere in the world, giving her husband “literal slave rights” over her if she stepped out of US jurisdiction. I do not believe she would have seen marriage as a beautiful institution.

        Lets be clear. There is a difference in the potential in a relationship where two people of the opposite sex engage in intimate relations, in or out of marriage, that does not occur in any other relationship. Keeping a unique discriptive name for the is simply logical. From a cost perspective, Marriage and divorce inextricably linked. Why complicate matters, and what benefit is it that the government would be able to impose alimony on divorced gays?

  • tnguy

    There is no solution – no spending cuts, no tax changes,no government program, no laws, nothing period – that will compensate for a people who are spiritually bankrupt. No president can fix that. However, I had hoped we could elect a Godly man who could, even if only in the slightest degree, set a tone at the top that could eventually move down through the ranks of government. At the very least, a president who could be an example to the rest of America, at a time when I believe we stand on the precipice of disaster. That’s why the republican party’s rejection of Gov. Perry was particularly painful to me.

    In the case of homosexual marriage, many Americans are just begging for God’s judgment of our country. Perhaps that’s what our pending economic implosion truly is: God’s judgment on a people intent on turning their back to Him.

    God called it an abomination. In our modern, enlightened age, we’ve determined that the God who made us was wrong.

    May God have mercy on us.

  • Pingback: How much do you know about astrology compatibility? | Numerological Compatibility

  • Viet71

    may score a point when they argue Christie isn’t anti-gay and is only looking ahead to the 2016 South Carolina primary.

    Don’t know the basis or merits of this argument.

  • zachv

    Oh, I’m definitely a fan of Chris Christie. A lot of the gay community is anti-Christie right now given that he just vetoed the marriage bill and the more progressive minded are definitely pulling out the anti-gay card. Whatever.

    Anyway. There’s quite a few Republicans that I believe have either seen the writing on the wall, or are personally uncomfortable/struggling to defend excluding the LGBT community from marriage. Christie is one of them. Cheney, Krauthammer or Coulter would be others. A bunch more are have already driven off the civil union cliff (O’Reilly, Limbaugh, Beck, etc.).

    None of them are anti-gay. Some have said insensitive things, but they all support the LGBT community to an extent on civil recognition of same-sex partnerships.

  • naraht

    The laws against incest are generally given one of three bases: 1) Religious, 2) higher likelihood of children with recessive genetic diseases and 3) Psychological arguments on things like love maps…

    If the question is can family members who are gay get married, reasons 1) (the religious works aren’t going to specify levels of badness) and 2) no kids who are genetically descended from both) go away. I’m not really if there is any real research on #3 within Gay couples….

    So I’d actually say that if gay marriage is allowed, there is a reasonable chance of having gay marriage to a brother allowed…

    And as for rights, honestly, the Gays have a better chance of getting the Supreme Court to do a Virginia v. Loving on gay marriage than they do getting the federal government to give all of the federal rights that marriage brings (like not having to testify against each other in court) to those in a “Civil Union”…

  • roberthawk

    The current state of homosexuality is defined in the first chapter of the book of Romans. In Genesis there is written the creation of man and woman through whom children are allowed to be born, however there is no evidence in the entire book of genesis that Men and men or women and women were ever to be clad together in marriage. As a matter of fact Sodom was destroyed by our Father for this very same reason.

    Romans chapter 1 is quite clear concerning the recompense our Father will meet out upon those who have turned to the un-natural act of homosexuality. No matter how the homosexual community presents their case, it remains an abomination to our Father which has consequences. Isn’t amazing that we never observe our Fathers other flesh animals acting in a homosexual manner.

  • WmCraig

    While within a Christian community this point may be valid, part of the reason Republicans have been ineffective leaders is that we have a hard time understanding the purpose of debate, and fall back on religious references that turn off the very people we are trying to convince.

    The object of this article was to provide a rational basis for defending marriage that specifically did not revert to religious reasoning. The reason for the article is to help everyone who is interested in winning the battle to save marriage. Our greatest weakness is that eventually, someone will begin quoting the bible, while egged on by progressives as the audience begins rolling their eyes over our inability to stay on message. This then as spun by progressives as “uncovering our true motives to impose an intolerant religious ideal” on everyone.

    We live in a country with total religious tolerance. We tolerate all forms of religion including no religion. The progressives have through decades of propaganda convinced people that one danger of conservatives is that they want to impose a religious based morality on everyone. Unfortunately, there are so many denominations and biblical interpretations of the finer points of faith that the expression of that faith does include wide variances in expectations. This leads to a natural concern on the part of many otherwise faithful people against allowing anyone with a strongly held belief to create or influence the creation of laws. Conservatives have failed to propagate a suitable antidote to this poisonous propaganda success which leaves us with the reality that the second fastest way to loose an the audience is to reference the bible.

    I am not an advocate of this, but this is the reality of the political environment where our ideas must compete.

    Further, this article was not intended as a debate on the merits of the GBLT community and your reference is entirely off topic, which could be an attempt to change the conversation, goad people into responding or create a red herring in order to mute the point of protecting marriage.

    If you are concerned about defending the institution of marriage and you rely on the bible as the basis of your decision I ask that you add one more book to your library and read it very carefully.
    Saul Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals.

    The Republican party began as radicals, and we find ourselves today as radicals again, outsiders looking to overturn the status quo of big, expensive, intrusive government. Our opponents are the progressive establishment that dominates government, education and the media. We are in an important fight for the salvation of our country. The sooner we learn this, the less damage we will have to repair to restore America as the land of liberty.

    The purpose for the media attacks on marriage is to bait conservatives into reacting, and “properly goaded” this is their most effective weapon. It distracts us from the more important issues of too much spending by the government in Washington. Our most effective weapon could be ridicule, of those who after fifty years of struggle would throw away the liberty that the GBLT community fought so hard to earn and allow government, especially the Obama government, back into their personal lives and give government new control over their “recognition and self-worth”. As if Obama has never thrown anyone under the bus for convenience sake!

    But because we don’t understand the tactics progressives use, or the rules of engagement in this arena of ideas we are hard pressed to contain ourselves and stay on message, giving them the upper hand.

    Lets work together to save marriage, first by staying on message. There is a logical reason marriage should not be redefined because it is about government power, and how well did that work out for the GBLT community in the past?

    The argument for defending marriage is not related to love or religion, and it has nothing to do with arguing the merits of the GBLT community at all.

  • westcoastpatriette

    Particularly the third paragraph.

    I am so dismayed by how so many religious conservatives start quoting scripture in the public square to justify their positions on various political issues. This should be a no-brainer. How could they think it would generate anything but confusion and resentment? It is just dumb.

    Thanks for taking the time to think through this issue. Every single religious conservative should be challenged to learn how to argue for their particular position without referencing scripture as justification. That works just fine inside the church, but when in the public square, the use of scripture in the year 2012 is a non-starter.

  • http://www.gmsplace.com/ civil truth

    As explaining how religious pluralism (the protection of which was the purpose of the 1st Amendment clauses on religion) has turned into secularist monopoly that seeks to exclude any religious expression from the public square that the new Established “religion” disapproves.

    Hence Obama and Wallace and others who invoke religion in support of the progressive state is good; invoking religion in support of conservative alternatives is un-American.

    Oversimplifying, of course, but there has been an essential shift in the past few decades that aims to suppress dissenting speech in a whole realm of areas.

    Not sure how to reverse this accelerating trend.

  • westcoastpatriette

    toward religion or the bible — I am an avid believer and love the scriptures. But it takes great skill and wisdom to quote it in the public square as justification for public policy in this day and age. But I also think all of the social issues we are so concerned about can be defended without direct quotes from scripture — and (unless we see a spontaneous religious revival of some sort) the better route to go is to look to the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution as they support our belief that there is a God who created us and endowed us with certain rights.

    In any event, WmCraig does a brilliant job in this diary as an example for us to follow. It reveals great wisdom in its approach, I believe.

  • http://www.gmsplace.com/ civil truth

    I just don’t believe in unilateral disarmament and allowing the media to only allow moral arguments from the Democrats/leftists. Obama used the Bible without the press calling him a theocrat, which means it’s not religion but politics that’s really the determinant.

    Nonetheless, recognizing the lay of the land (as the diary author keenly points out), and that the “rules” are different for conservatives, our candidates need to be very wise in how they would use Scripture – and should certainly be well-versed in non-Scriptural arguments.

    What’s key is elucidating a coherent argument for conservatism in terms that the electorate can grasp.