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Attention: Imbecilic Candi-bots Calling for a 3rd Party Solution to a Romney Nomination — This is for you

First here is your list of Winners (pronounced [loo-zers]) source: (http://www.presidentsusa.net/thirdparty.html)

3rdPartiersPartyHardier

Now that we’ve dispensed with the ridiculous notion that a 3rd Party candidate *might* be able to win, let’s talk about what you’re really proposing, and why it’s a very BAD idea.

A 3rd Party no matter what it is, is an “issue-driven” party, which is to suggest that the “issue” must be taken up as a “cause”, and a “cause” will most definitely require winning hearts and minds to Modify, Repeal, or Create new laws. Look at the list above, and tell me that any of those 3rd Parties weren’t just really large issue-driven movements that were not about political philosophy as much as they were about ideological purity.

Movements are progressive in nature (no not that kind of progressive — calm down), and they of necessity require consensus within a party that wins an election to bring about the desired goal of some sort of policy, law, or amendment enacted to revolutionize or reform our constitution or titles, codes, and policies. (There are some amendments that are necessary, but many often cause more litigiousness and immoral justification for removing individual liberties in favor of governance and government intervention — thereby creating dependence, not fostering independence)

There is nothing wrong with being part of a movement. There is nothing wrong with wanting to amend the constitution (we are a free society to do so). There is however something VERY wrong with candidates and their loyalists that drop out of a party to challenge an election with a 3rd party issue driven campaign, hoping to drive wedges rather than working within the confines of consensus within the party.

Suggesting that 3rd Party votes are ‘for the good of the party – to teach the “elites” a lesson’ in reality just get the other political philosophy in office. This path is not some loyalty driven sense of duty borne of hope. Rather, it is Political Extremism (and we’re not talking about being “extreme in the defense of liberty” here, we’re talking extremely kooky basement-living-never-see-the-light-of-day-don’t-get-out-much kind of extremism).

Political extremism in this context requires 2 elements:
1. An over-simplified, and most likely naive diagnosis regarding the cause and effect of all the World’s ills. (see: Occutards, Paulistinians, Tin-Foil Hat Society, Conspiracy Theorists, Gold Investors that claim they’re insulated from the inevitable crash that is coming)
2. An undeniable conviction born out of anxiety/kookiness that there are specific IDENTIFIABLE VILLAINS that must be stopped at all costs!

Integrity is not defined by claiming you’ll never work with someone else that you don’t agree with 100%. There is nothing righteous in indignation that is spent through hatred towards a person borne out of an idea they have espoused with which you most vehemently disagree.

So with that being said… Please, don’t become what you hate… Don’t go 3rd party.

COMMENTS

  • lineholder

    “I won’t vote” and/or “I’ll vote for the opposition” groups, too?

    If the situation wasn’t quite so dire, I might laugh at it. But the idea of having Obama, of all people, get a second term , with the aid and assistance of Conservatives, by either of the above-mentioned means….I can’t seem to find much in that to laugh at, I’m afraid.

    If there was ever a time for Conservatives to stay engaged in this race and follow it through with it, in one massively loud “voice”, this is it.

    • http://www.thestandardcandle.com Justin Spagnolo

      But in case they come a trollin’ and don’t read the diary… let’s go ahead and say a non vote for the GOP nominee *is* a vote for political extremism …
      I.e. Obama

      • lineholder

        !

      • hayeksheroes

        And rules are put in place to make sure changes can’t be made.

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuQIMfMVMYg

        • http://www.thestandardcandle.com Justin Spagnolo

          See Heritage Action, Concord Project, American Majority, etc…

          Get involved… become the opinion maker in your neighborhood

          • hayeksheroes

            you can only make a difference if there’s a fair election and you can mobilize your forces within the party infrastructure. that video is an admission by the St. Charles MO GOP leadership that their caucus debacle was intended to keep certain parties out at all costs. the leadership was trying to throw the caucus to Santorum.

          • acat

            Next!

          • texastaxpayer

            Perhaps my frustrated friend should consider a day at the shooting range or batting cages? If you lived closer I would take you out for a couple drinks with politics banned as a conversational topic. Still have a long way to go my friend. Dont loose that stoic cool of yours its what makes your wit so effective…

          • acat

            1/4 cup soy sauce
            1/4 cup lime juice
            1/4 cup brown sugar
            1 tsp garlic powder (or 2 cloves, crushed)
            1/8 tsp dried ground ginger (or 1/4 tsp fresh grated)

            Drop that in a ziploc with 1 (or 2) steak(s), squeeze out as much air as possible, and let sit in the ‘fridge for at least 4 hours.

            Well .. that, and given hayeksheroes’ complaints, I don’t think spending longer on a reply would help… sounds like someone who knows the solution but keeps seeking a new excuse to not work the solution to this cat.

            Mew

            p.s. an inferior cut of meat, cubed, and soaked for 24+ hours in the above mixture, then kebabed with veggies of your choice is a great and delicious summer dinner option.

          • Right Reason

            If you’re marinating anything above a sirloin, I may have to take you out to the woodshed.

            Ribeye, NY strip, porterhouse, delmionico deserve no less than the below:
            1 part fresh coarse ground black pepper
            1 part dried ground garlic
            1 part dry mustard (fesh gorund if at all possible)
            2 parts kosher salt

            I prefer Pittsburgh, but medium is OK if you must.

          • acat

            This is a nice flank steak, cut into cubes for stir-frying with bok choi, carrots, celery, onions, and snow peas. Serve over a bed of brown rice, very tasty and pretty healthy.

            Regarding your recipe, it’s a good start but it needs a touch of ground rosemary (1/8 part if that) .. and depending on the marbling of the steaks and the condition of the grill, I may mix the spices in grapeseed oil and “paint” them on to ensure the steak doesn’t stick…

            And don’t forget the sauteed mushrooms!

            Mew

          • Right Reason

            . . .if I’m in the mood. Generally, it’s just a big dollop of whipped butter.

            BTW, in case you didn’t catch it, that was meant to be “fresh ground” dry mustard. “fesh gorund” sounds like it could be some exotic variety.

          • acat

            Never did like the things, even with your dollop of butter.

            Mew

  • Melody Warbington (rwm52)

    I just hope those that need to read it do. I don’t know if some of these folks are young, uninformed or just want to play the martyr, but it sure isn’t helpful.

    Idealism and standing on principles have to be exercised within the real world of how do we stop Obama. Hard to face, but that’s the reality of the situation.

    Thanks, Justin. And it wasn’t lost on me that the screenshot of those third party candidates is blurred – just like they are in history.

    • http://www.thestandardcandle.com Justin Spagnolo

      Although it wasn’t intended… it does have a neat coincidental metaphor…

      Also… I thought you might also like my diary just before this one… I’m all Newtonian now … and even if he drops between now and convention … I’m starting the Newt for VP campaign in that event… I can’t see another person in that role… unless it’s because Newt is the nominee … I’ll stop threadjacking now :)

  • civil truth

    …but that was probably the author’s intention as well.

    • http://www.thestandardcandle.com Justin Spagnolo

      No text.

      • Stricia

        • Stricia

          I like it nonetheless. And was a bit surprised at the number of also-rans.

          • http://www.thestandardcandle.com Justin Spagnolo

            Then again… they say the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result

          • texastaxpayer

            ;)

          • http://www.thestandardcandle.com Justin Spagnolo

            n.t.

          • texastaxpayer

            nt..

          • ffc99

            nt.

          • Stricia

            N/T

          • texastaxpayer

            Would expect you to at least understand that….. But then perhaps I have been giving you too much credit eh?? ;)

          • http://www.thestandardcandle.com Justin Spagnolo

            So your Definition of “RINO” is Republicans In Name Only….

            And you’re coming on to my thread which is all about recognizing Party over Movement… and you’re suggesting that You’re ready to go 3rd Party, if a Republican gets the nomination?

            Given your definition of RINO… I honestly can’t say I know of any RINO’s that ran for president and won the Nomination of the Republican party…

            I suppose I have however seen RINOs claim they’re more Republican than I am, and YET they suggest it’s time for a 3rd party.

            [Time for Silence While You Process That]

            See…. It IS awkward isn’t it? (and embarrassing too)

          • texastaxpayer

            Just trying to look clever? Unfortunately your failing. Dole… Mccain… Both moderate RINO squishies that were in fact nominated and LOST…. History not your strong suite???

            I thought I was a republican until people like you convinced me I am actually a conservative. I foolishly thought those terms where synonymous. Imagine my surprise….

            I would love to see you try to explain your support for Romney though given your stated hatred for Obama and his healthcare law. Yeah I bet people you talk to aren’t going to think your petty racist advocating for a guy with one of the worst economic records in the country as governor and the architect of obamacare. But then you don’t let minor details like hypocrisy bother you do you “republican”?

            If I were you I would get used to those awkward embarrassing silences. Your going to be experiencing a lot of them I am afraid this November as you try to advocate for Romney.

          • lapert

            He is just pointing out that when people suggest that those who have been in, supported and served under the Republican party for decades it is patently stupid to suggest they aren’t ‘real’ Republicans. They are much more Republican than you. And it is even sillier when a big complaint is that they are the ‘establishment’ candidate to in the same breath say they aren’t really ‘Republicans’. If anything, the establishment candidates are the most Republican of Republicans.

            In other words, the use of ‘RINO’ has jumped the shark.

          • radicalrighty

            I suppose you think the US would look exactly like it does not had John McCain won in ’08.

            Pal, the fact is that McCain would have been 1000% better than Obama, and Romney would be 1000% than Obama.

            And please stop comparing the health care laws. MS (a liberal state in case you didn’t know) was GONNA HAVE HEALTHCARE, with or without Romney’s signature on it. Romney knows the majority of the country doesn’t want what the Dems gave us with Obamacare, and he promised again yesterday to REPEAL it as his first act in office, with the second act opening up federal lands for drilling oil and nat gas. I heard him say that John Roberts is his type of SCOTUS justice.

            Do you really think a President Romney would submitt annual budgets $1.5 Trillion in the red? Don’t you think he would work WITH Paul Ryan in restoring the financial well-being of this country, instead of attacking him? President Romney would gut the EPA and the NLRB, and any other bureaucracy standing in the way of business.

            We conservatives (I am a Perry man) have to see the good things that Romney will do if we enthusiastically help him defeat Obama.

            I don’t give a damn is Romney isn’t a perfect conservative, (there was only one in this race, and he got kicked to the curb) he is conservative enough to get this country back on track.

          • texastaxpayer

            If your going to chime in then at least be accurate. I said Mccain couldn’t get elected as already demonstrated.

            P.S. Romney lost to Mccain.

          • http://www.thestandardcandle.com Justin Spagnolo

            From what I gather you expect that Romney supporters suppose they can avoid being called racist due to their support for Romney?

            I’ve clearly stated to you I support Newt… this diary advocates supporting the Nominee… and apparently you believe the Nominee is going to be Romney… every diary you have posted has anti-mitt themes… so I have to assume at this point you’ve given up the notion that you *might* support Mitt as the nominee…

            You run around stirring the pot where you can… and I’m not sure what you believe as a political philosophy… I just see a lot of you calling other site members names and advocating a 3rd party in the event Romney is nominated.

            Your behavior seems irrational. And it would seem your embracing your inner Alinsky now… the process is near complete…. the dark side can feel your anger…you are becoming what you hate.

          • texastaxpayer

            Please link to a post of mine where I have stated hatred for third parties? I don’t even “hate” Romney on a personal level for that matter. He is a horrible choice for our nominee especially in this cycle when our focus should be economics (he ranked 47th), deficits (he blew a hole billions deep with his policies) and Obamacare (he invented it). You apparently recognize this yourself as your a supposed Newt supporter. Let me ask you this. How old are you? How many presidential elections have you been through? My first vote for president was 1992. Since HW whom I didn’t believe in but voted for as a “party over movement” partisan I have since voted for Dole and Mccain. Two more rino squishies I didn’t truly support. Guess what? Marching into the fire blindly supporting the GOP doesn’t actually help it hurts. After Mccain in 2008 you would think the “party” would have learned its lesson and promoted an actual conservative that could contrast our platform with theirs and give the electorate a choice. Nope, here comes Romney the antithesis of Reagan conservatism. And yet again here is another “SHEEP” YOU demanding that I give up my vote and my principles again to support someone who A. Doesn’t represent me or my values and B. Doesn’t have a snowballs chance in hell of winning. NO… not again as you said repeating the same behavior and expecting a different outcome is the definition of insanity.

            You should consider that as long as your willing to show up and vote for whomever the GOP nominates you will continue to vote for moderate quasi liberals. The truth is the GOP doesn’t want to fundamentally change business as usual in Washington anymore than the democrats. Like the liberals business as usual is how they get their wealth and power.

          • http://www.thestandardcandle.com Justin Spagnolo

            You see that’s the problem for you isn’t it?

            You don’t seem to understand that objecting to someone you agree with 41% of the time, heck, let’s say 6% of the time… is vastly better than allowing the political philosophy that you MOST vehemently oppose (i.e. liberalism) to maintain the office of President of the United States…

            addendum: point to me one place, just one… where I have ever directly advocated that a person should vote AGAINST their conscience?

            You seem to think that I’m rejecting social conservative values to ‘get along’… when in reality, I am stating that I am intending to do everything I can to prevent liberals in Washington from moving the goal posts to ‘their’ turf… welcome to politics.

            To answer your questions I’m 31, I’ve participated in 2 of the 3 presidential elections that have taken place since I turned 18. I have not ‘always’ voted for the Republican as you suggest, but I haven’t ‘always’ had my views as they are now… which points to your issue of “ideological purity” (which was covered in the diary)… 3rd parties are not successful in the general election, if you think this time is different I think you’re woefully misguided.

            But this is EXACTLY why I think you’re either a troll, or a candi-bot… either one makes you an imbecile.

            So let’s make this easy…

            1. Do you support ONLY Senator Santorum for President?
            2. If Mitt Romney get’s nominated will you vote for Mitt Romney?

            If the answer is yes to either or both of those questions. Then welcome to your imbecilic world.

            And if you can’t answer those two questions in a public forum, then know in advance, I understand completely why you won’t.

            Motive is Motive after all.

          • http://www.thestandardcandle.com Justin Spagnolo

            To be specific… the only Democrat I voted for was in a state congressional election… NOT for president… my presidential votes have been for Bush in 2004, and McCain in 2008. If you must know.

          • http://www.thestandardcandle.com Justin Spagnolo

            “You should consider that as long as your willing to show up and vote for whomever the GOP nominates you will continue to vote for moderate quasi liberals. The truth is the GOP doesn?t want to fundamentally change business as usual in Washington anymore than the democrats. Like the liberals business as usual is how they get their wealth and power.”

            Although I understand the feeling of being betrayed…

            I think myself, and others in this thread, as well as in SO MANY OTHER postings here at Redsate have given CLEAR, SPECIFIC, and PRESCRIPTIVE advice…

            Get involved in your local politics, and demand more conservatism. And if like Steve Foley, you can’t find a more conservative candidate… RUN YOURSELF!

          • acat

            As Erick recently put it:

            Either way, conservatives have and no doubt will continue to make it very clear that Mitt Romney may be the standard bearer of the Republican Party, but he most definitely is not the standard bearer of the conservative movement. The disentangling of the movement from the party will continue. So too will our shared effort to oust Barack Obama from the White House.

            The money in that quote is the idea that the conservative movement is – and indeed, must! – disentangle itself from the GOP, who seek only to treat “conservative” as a convenient, pretty label…

            The term RINO has no meaning as one cannot be a Republican In Name Only – if a politician is a Republican, they are a Republican. They may be hardcore left-leaning liberals, but the party does not enforce ideological limits.

            Mew

  • civil truth

    Congress would still be controlled by the Democrats and Republicans who would have no loyalty.

    Though it might reintroduce bipartisanship to Congress again…after a fashion.

    • http://www.thestandardcandle.com Justin Spagnolo

      I certainly wouldn’t call it a Miracle…

      • civil truth

        Or were your getting back at me for quibbling with your title, though I really was wondering if it would push away those you presumably were trying to speak to.

        I’m not quite sure, since you ignored my main point, which usually seems to get overshadowed by focusing on the “star” (i.e. the President) – the point being that the Congress is still going to be comprised of people from the two parties. And that has serious implications regarding governability.

        Again, I agree with your position about the futility of 3rd parties.

        • http://www.thestandardcandle.com Justin Spagnolo

          When you said this:
          “Congress would still be controlled by the Democrats and Republicans who would have no loyalty.”

          I thought it was a face value statement that stood on its own merit and needed no context from me.

          And I agree… if anyone doubts, just go ask Bernie Sanders just exactly who else is in *his* (I)ndependent caucus of ‘socialist democrat’.

    • Melody Warbington (rwm52)

      nt

      • civil truth

        No pesky Congress or Supreme Court to get in the way of executive orders, 100% approval ratings with no danger of getting voted out of office. And no RINOs to grouse about. :-)

  • sigmasix

    I don?t particularly care that Romney has historically flip-flopped like a landed fish, what I care about is getting him so firmly locked into Conservative principles now that he can?t flip-flop in the future. But if I believe the media when it says Romney has a tight, well-run campaign, then the Etch-A-Sketch comment reflects his plan both for the election and for governing.

    I also don?t particularly care that Romney?s only concern is Romney as long as he understands that his future interests coincide with the rest of the party. If Romney truly understood that to win election he must run such a Conservative campaign that there would be no questioning his Conservatism, and that to win re-election he?d have to govern as an actual Conservative, then I?d be fine with his ideology being one solely of vested self interest. But Romney is clearly convinced that to win this election he must run left-of-center, and he?ll govern left-of-center to win re-election. Sorry Mitt, it?s not in my self interest to help elect a candidate that I?m convinced will govern against my interests and the will of the people. Also, the argument that ?Obama is worse? is not a winning message
    .
    Conservatives should just recognize something which already exists, SEPARATION from a party that has lost its soul. Make your objections known now, both candidates are disastrous.

    The truth is the republican leadership is trying to marginalize conservative ideas. Hello big government under a different label. Hello Mitt Romney!

    Example, look at the current Republican leadership in Congress today. No balls, no will, no structured core beliefs, no legislative agenda to upset the apple cart. Just maintain the status que. The last time I checked, we still have a check and balance approach to government, use it.

    The Tea Party has already provided the pathway.

    • http://www.thestandardcandle.com Justin Spagnolo

      Here’s what I hear you say:

      1. I’m under 35 years old
      2. I’m a HUGE fan of Atlas Shrugged.
      3. I’m libertarian, and I’d rather see ‘a’ Paul in the whitehouse
      4. I haven’t really attempted to know anything about Romney but his negatives, because I’ve already chosen to sit this election out if ‘a’ Paul doesn’t get on the GOP ticket.
      5. Your interest in Congress, and Politics begins and ends ridiculous high school epithets.
      6. Your “constitutional values” are rooted in a phrase like “checks and balances” but you clearly have NO idea how that *actually* works beyond your 8th grade government lesson on 3 branches of government.
      7, You seem to think “T.E.A. Party” is an actual political party, and apparently you learned NOTHING from the T.E.A. Party which is in fact a coalition of like minded individuals that are “ISSUE” focused as discussed in the diary above, but it isn’t a platform of political philosophy, and much of the T.E.A. Party protesters have been Republicans most of their life… so libertarians don’t have a “wave” of a chance to rename themselves the T.E.A. Party and get ballots cast in our Electoral College.
      8. Separation – is a last resort… GO READ THE REST OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE.

    • morrigan

      >”Romney is clearly convinced that to win this election he must run left-of-center, and he?ll govern left-of-center to win re-election. ”

      Not sure where you’re getting this from. He’s said nothing to suggest anything of the sort. It’s just about impossible to win an election as a Republican while running left-of-center. So you must either be saying that Romney is stupid (and it’s unlikely that he is) or that he is ideologically committed to the left – which runs counter to the argument that he lacks core convictions.

  • conservativecurmudgeon

    Third Parties have been, oftentimes, the bane of the American Experiment in Democracy. They gave us some of our worst Presidents by splitting the sane vote, most notably Woodrow Wilson (who sneaked under the wire because of the vanity campaign of “Bull Moose” TR), the second term of Truman (which, in contrast to the first term, was a disaster, and was caused in large measure by Strom Thurmond’s run) and, of course, two terms of Bill Clinton, who only won by plurality both times by virtue of Ross Perot.

    People also mistakenly call the modern Republican Party a successful “third party”, as if there was a straight line from the death of the Whigs, to Abraham Lincoln’s second inaugural. The fact is, the Civil War hardened political lines in a way that never really existed in Frontier America, and the “parties” were amalgamations and permutations of amorphous thought-ways. There were rump ends of burnt-out one-issue candidacies, dying Federalists, free-soilers, know-nothings, Texas Republicans, etc., etc. In fact, Lincoln himself, when elected to his second term, didn’t even run as a “Republican”. He ran as a “National Union” candidate.

    Since that time, the political parties have stood, more or less, and in different incarnations, as parties that either advocate a strong central government against a weakened individual, or vice-versa. Third parties add nothing to this equation, and never have. All they do is dilute and fog.

    • http://www.thestandardcandle.com Justin Spagnolo

      Even back then they had their Rockstars, which ended up splitting the party over personas rather than principles…

      Revisionists would suggest it was solely over mason-dixon lines… but the fact is loyalties are regional, religious, and reputation.

  • natek58

    Let’s not call it a “Party”. OK, try this on: The Social Conservative Union.

    We will threaten, and actually carry out, selective “strikes” against candidates that do not adhere to socially conservative principles. We will simply call out people that do not meet our core values. We will faithfully still be there to support and elect conservatives that fully support the right of all human beings to be born and that adhere to other social conservative principles.

    We won’t have to run our own competing candidate. We can simply make it impossible for Republicans to get elected if they aren’t going to tow the line fully.

    • aesthete

      Good luck getting elected anywhere in New England or the Mountain West. What, exactly, should the Republican party be doing about social issues that they haven’t already done — and why? Bonus points if you can explain why this should be prioritized over the very real issues of a weak economy and government collapse.

      How people can look at the problems facing us, and conclude that our priorities should be pornography and contraception, is beyond me…

      • natek58

        A return to a true Christian Nation and the economy will return. It is our acceptance of the deaths of the innocent and our embrace of the homosexual lifestyle that is causing our nation to fall into the abyss.

        We practically worship at the altar of promoscuity and we think that God should continue to bless us as a nation?

        God doesn’t work that way. Read his book and believe.

        With the Social Conservative Union in place we can control politicians like never before. Republicans will have to finally start doing some things for God instead of just enriching themselves.

        • CincoSolas_del_Bronx

          Beats sackcloth and ashes, broken and contrite hearts, repentance and faith in Christ, robes of alien righteousness, doing justly, loving mercy and walking humbly, unshakable confidence in the power of a proclaimed gospel and joy at its transformative reception–by atheists, liberals, aborters, homosexuals, secular humanists, ChiComs, and perhaps even the occasional conservative. Maybe we’re reading different books.

        • JSobieski

          Its good enough for me.Seriously though, I don’t recall a lot of collective punishment in the NT. Nor do I recall a lot of political theory.

          • aesthete

            within Christendom of people shoving things into Christianity that have no business being there, and no support in Scripture — Christianity as an explanation, validation, and justification for conservative American middle class suburbia/upper-class religious liberals/young vegan idealistic Christians/[insert group with money and grievances here]. Unfortunately, for every Mark Piper or CS Lewis who has made their mark in Christian thought, there are folks like Joel Osteen, who make a mockery of Christianity by transforming it into some feel-good philosophy. (The opposite trend being, of course, the use of the spare pieces of the Cross to fashion a perch from which to look down upon others.)

            The Saducees and the Pharisees: 2000+ years later, and we’re still living with that insufferable lot.

          • CincoSolas_del_Bronx

            Horton and company occasionally refer to the high congruence between them and contemporary poles of the theological-political nexus when contextualing their opposition to Jesus. (Of course the Zealots usually get dragged in for good measure!)

            The inimitable Lewis on your “insufferable lot”:

            You know how this wine is blended? Different types of Pharisee have been harvested, trodden, and fermented together to produce its subtle flavour. Types that were most antagonistic to one another on Earth. Some were all rules and relics and rosaries; others were all drab clothes, long faces, and petty traditional abstinences from wine or cards or the theatre. Both had in common their self-righteousness and an almost infinite distance between their actual outlook and anything the Enemy really is or commands. The wickedness of other religions was the really live doctrine in the religion of each; slander was its gospel and denigration its litany. How they hated each other up where the sun shone!

            (Screwtape Proposes a Toast)

          • natek58

            You assume that the message is overtly about a takeover of government by the church – which I am opposed to. It’s about what we tolerate as a society and what we do with our laws and the influences that those laws have on society.

            Take a simple example: As long as drugs remain illegal, we are saying as a nation, that drugs are not right – a truth which we ought to keep saying. Just because drugs are illegal will not free us of all drug abusers. Once drugs become legal, it will be acceptable to use them, and they will further degrade the nation.

            If we keep marriage between one man and one woman, we go on record as a nation that at the core of a successful family is one man and one woman. That is what nature (God in my opinion) created.

          • acat

            Some of this is better fought in the culture itself, some of this is better left to state or local government, or to families.

            None of this is the proper role of the federal government, even if I give you the benefit of the doubt and allow that it is the role of government at all.

            Mew

          • natek58

            And politics is an extension of that war. We need to remain a nation that values heterosexual marriage, is against drugs, etc. And we need to get back to valueing the life of the unborn.

            I understand that the states need to pass laws that make abortion illegal. But we need to get the Federal government out of the way first. The same is true of most of these issues.

            A Federal government that stays within its limits under the constitution is what we need there, and there are MANY Republicans that don’t.

            If you agree with Roe v. Wade – you don’t believe in limited Federal power.

            We need DOMA to protect those states that do not want to recognize same-sex marriages.

          • acat

            among church folk is statistically the same as among non-church folk.

            If there were a notable difference between the two, I would take your arguments over “defense” of the institution more seriously – as it is, failure to police your own, so to speak, weakens your case.

            As for Roe v. Wade, it’s atrociously bad “law”, and should be overturned. I’ll note, by the way, that I consider the decades of money and effort spent in D.C. an almost complete waste as the only advances against abortion – did I mention I’m anti-abortion*? – have come at the state and local level. The activities at the federal level have been, at best, a holding action, and at worst a fleecing of little old ladies.

            In short, you propose to use the government as a weapon in the culture wars .. I propose that if your cultural norms are superior, then you wouldn’t need the government to do the fighting.

            If you prefer, I’ll put it in terms Sun Tzu used – D.C. is a narrow way, and a difficult path to attack, but an easy path to defend. Why are we, with a much larger group of activist-supporters, trying to take the narrow way when we can work through the broad way – statehouses and local city councils – and get the same results?

            Regarding gay marriage, my view is that the best role is to remove government from what’s supposed to be a rite of the church. There’s a time coming when the statistics of support vs. opposition will flip – and at that point I expect folks like you will recognize that taking the issue out of the hands of government is the better approach. Until then, well, we’ll just have to disagree.

            Mew

            * cat does not use the term “pro-life” because the term has become diluted… I am in favor of the death penalty, for instance…

          • http://www.thestandardcandle.com Justin Spagnolo

            There are so many subtleties on both sides of DOMA… it causes arguments that are poorly articulated…

            If we all did more to understand what drives this issue from equal protection under the law and religious dogma that is as unchanging as the solar cycle… there should be ways in which we can ensure solutions that prevent the loss of individual liberties…

          • aesthete

            we’re as a society making a value judgement that blasphemy is good or OK, or that not following Christ is a good? I don’t buy that. Laws should not be in place to “send a message”, since they are not mere statements but rather instruments of state policy which will be used to throw people in cages, deprive them of their money, or otherwise impair their freedom. A law should be tailored for a well-defined public purpose which applies equally to all citizens in a pluralistic society. Ideally, it should also uphold the fundamental freedoms which allow one to freely choose either righteousness or wickedness, so long as you’re not forcing that choice onto other people. Laws that “make a statement” or “send a message” do much more than that, and imperil liberty in exchange for…?

            I’d also be interested in hearing a moral argument against *drug use*, even “recreational use” rather than the *excess* of same as a moral wrong. I would remind you that we have several recreational drugs or substances which are perfectly legal today, and that several of the illegal substances on the Controlled Substances List have been found to have medical properties. Suffice it to say, drug use seems like an odd one for social conservatives to fixate on, given its absence in the scripture.

          • http://www.thestandardcandle.com Justin Spagnolo

            However, if you’re a Mormon… there is in fact scripture on the use of drugs… :) {see Word Of Wisdom} Ironic right?

          • aesthete

            “You assume that the message is overtly about a takeover of government by the church”

            I said and assume no such thing — you’re projecting things onto me that I never said.

          • natek58

            You aren’t a Republican, you’re here to make trouble.

          • acat

            Second, you’re quite painfully mistaken.

            Mew

          • natek58

            The comment was intended for aesthete. Comments don’t seem to show up where I expect and your comment wasn’t even there when I wrote it. Or when I started to write it.

            I have been reading you. I do not doubt that you are a conservative. We disagree on things, to be sure.

          • acat

            I disagree with him from time to time as well, but I do not doubt that he is more conservative than I am.

            Mew

          • aesthete

            I’ve been a conservative for much longer.

            I’ve been a Christian for longer than either of the above.

        • http://www.thestandardcandle.com Justin Spagnolo

          Jesus the Christ said… “If ye love me keep my commandments.”

          As for ‘we’ worshipping at the alter of promiscuity … what’s this we?

          I am my brother’s keeper… I am not some badged religious authority that has rights to force confession and demand virtue at the threat of government intervention…

          As a Mormon I believe you come to Christ by your own volition…

          24 And, notwithstanding we believe in Christ, we a keep the law of Moses, and look forward with steadfastness unto Christ, until the law shall be fulfilled.

          25 For, for this end was the law given; wherefore the law hath become dead unto us, and we are made alive in Christ because of our faith; yet we keep the law because of the commandments.

          26 And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.)

          27 Wherefore, we speak concerning the law that our children may know the deadness of the law; and they, by knowing the deadness of the law, may look forward unto that life which is in Christ, and know for what end the law was given. And after the law is fulfilled in Christ, that they need not harden their hearts against him when the law ought to be done away.

          The only governor I trust with a theocracy is the Lord Jesus Christ.

          Now if you want to build a movement around social conservatism…. might I suggest starting an organization that is non denominational and spend your time educating Republicans on the merits of writing legislation that protects life and avoids allowing government to pick up the tab for the promiscuous….. by all means start that movement …. but don’t withhold support because you can’t find yourself in 100% agreement with a nominee.

          • natek58

            I’d appreciate at least 50%, and your guy Romney isn’t even close. He is classic RINO – or is he. It’s really hard to tell what he is on most issues. Etch-A-Skech seems to be a very appropriate description of him.

            We have been trying, for 30 years to educate Republicans (and Democrats) of the evils of abortion, etc. and they do not listen. A presidential campaign with a true pro-life candidate at the head of the ticket would provide the platform to really do that. That is what I was hoping for.

            We also need to have a talk some time about that extra book you subscribe to. I have a REAL problem voting for anyone that believes in that at all. Call me a bigot if you must, but I know that it is NOT the work of any God that I believe in.

          • Xasteius

            And frankly if evangelicals put half the energy into ‘loving’ people into a relationship with Christ that they did self-righteously beating people over the head with a Bible, the culture would not be as bad as it would be. Christians have created a lot of their own problems.

          • Xasteius

            I may not be a Mormon, but it just sounds like Justin has a better grip on good theology in politics than you do.

          • aesthete
          • http://www.thestandardcandle.com Justin Spagnolo

            1. I don’t think you’re a bigot for having reservations about voting for someone that doesn’t share your religious views… but if I spent my time worrying about that… I would not likely vote for any ‘Christian’ candidates … but rather I vote for the person not their ‘religion’ and that person in my view should represent my political views… as much as possible… its not hard to see Romney represents me better than Obama… or a write in or 3rd party or non vote which is a vote for the other side.

            2. Romney isn’t my Gu.y Newt is at this time.

            3. I’m not interested in conversation with some pompous Christian that assumes way to much and draws conclusions from a false sense of self righteousness regarding my faith or The books I have actually read. Unlike so many others I read Scriptures every day both Bible and the Book of Mormon…. so when you read ‘that book of’ mine from cover to cover you’ll be more prepared to have that conversation.

            4. As a Social Conservative I see bad economy as the foundation for all evils… when people are idle and without work they are easily tempted … people are empowered to make better decisions when they are gainfully employed and anxiously engaged in a good cause. … as for Santorum I see a good man that went along to get along…

          • aesthete

            They’ll be very surprised to hear that.

          • bobmark

            so as to have folks self-police. One of the problems is that it has turned out that in many instances, Americans have failed the true test of character, “What would you do if you didn’t think you’d get caught/punished?” Having G_d waiting to judge you at the end was once a powerful force in getting people to behave, now, with the increase of atheism and the removal of religion from most of public life they see a cause and effect with the ills facing us today. Their mistake is they keep trying to communicate their message with religious wording rather than speaking to the secular folks in secular language,
            Fis-cons have a similar problem because it’s all well and good to say that people who work hard should be allowed to make as much money as they can, but they can’t square that with the executives on each others boards scratching each others backs with ridiculous pay, perks, and golden parachutes.
            What is needed is a movement toward calling for enlightened self interest, aka the golden rule, and that no one seems willing to do so is bringing out the frustration resulting in the calls for third parties.

          • http://www.thestandardcandle.com Justin Spagnolo

            For example ‘after birth abortions’… ‘condoms are a constitutional right’ … ‘humans are a blight to the earth’

            Etc.

            The extremism comment made in the diary plays on both the far left and the far right.

        • cheetah2

          2 Chronicles 7:14 “If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.”

          It is not necessary to have a Christian nation, just a nation containing Christians who are doing the above.

          My thought is that in politics we need to be pragmatic and strive for a nation that fosters Christian liberty as much as is realistically possible.

          I pray for missionaries around the world. I always pray that the country where they live would have a peaceful and benign government that will not hamper them in their work. I want at the very least to have that for us in our own country. Obama is a huge threat to this with his anti-freedom, anti-American, and anti-Christian views.

          Our top priority must be to rid ourselves of this dangerous man and if it means electing Romney to replace him, then so be it. I will accept that thankfully.

          I won’t waste my chance to help achieve what is most necessary by voting third party or staying home on election day. I will give money and campaign for him also if I think it is necessary.

    • http://www.thestandardcandle.com Justin Spagnolo

      no text

    • morrigan

      As pro-life as Reagan was at any rate.

      >”We can simply make it impossible for Republicans to get elected if they aren?t going to tow the line fully.”

      You must have a very strange idea of what constitutes fully towing the line.

      Romney on abortion – ?Mine will be a pro-life presidency,. On day one, I will reinstate the Mexico City policy. I will cut off funding for the United Nations Population Fund, which supports China?s barbaric One Child Policy.?

    • 10ab

      When I read a post like yours I DO wish there was a 3rd Party for all of the extremist GOP nuts like you . You do not speak for the majority of the party yet so much pressure has been put on our candidates to pander for your pathetic vote instead of focusing on issues and solutions. Your rhetoric appalls Independants that might , just might give a second look at the GOP if you were not a member!

      • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

        You sound like a Pinko.

  • quill67

    Right now. He talks the talk and even though I do not believe him when the election comes I will have to hope that he really is a conservative.

    BUT if he shows himself to be a Nixon Republican (price controls, hampering of free market, liberal court appointments, increasing power of Federal government, etc) I will bolt the Republican party.

    I believe I am not alone. I will not bolt on a whim. I will have to be sure that he really will be Nixon part 2 (I am always hopeful.) If he is, then Obama will get a second term and the fight to turn around the country will be very difficult.

    However, no more difficult than if Romney creates a Republican party that is just slightly less big government than Obama. At least with the latter, we can be unified in opposition. If Romney turns out to be a Nixon, then enough Republicans will go along to support the party that we will be doomed..

    • http://www.thestandardcandle.com Justin Spagnolo

      Welcome to my web said the spider to the fly.

      • quill67

        The intention would not be to win but to prevent a Nixon pt2.

        That would be the win.

        • http://www.thestandardcandle.com Justin Spagnolo

          If all you want to do is unify opposition, just keep watching Star Wars episodes IV,V,VI. and stay home.

          • quill67

            BUT I was very clear. ONLY if it was absolutely clear that Romney was a Nixon type (or Romney as Governor in Mass. type guy)

            At least with the Dems in office we know who the enemy is. But with a Nixon pt 2. we would not know because the enemy would be in our camp as well.

            I believe what sent me over the edge was that all of Nixon’s economic advisors begged and pleaded with him not to implement wage and price controls. (For those who are younger..yes the government actually demanded that wages not increase and that prices had to remain fixed. To fight inflation –caused by printing too much money in the first place)

            Anyway, when Nixon did it anyway, all his economic advisors in public supported him. Government gave itself the power of all our freedoms and NO ONE stood up because of party loyalty.

            Well, I refuse.

          • http://www.thestandardcandle.com Justin Spagnolo

            Read their economic plans on their websites… Romney’s was the most detailed… and one of the first available… you should be able to determine whether or not your fears are justified…

            Regardless, I still think it’s foolish to prevent the GOP from winning only to hand the Democrats the blank checkbook…

            Just sayin’.

          • lineholder

            we’re not that far off economically from a point of no return.

            As much as we talk about how incompetent Obama is, if what has transpired is viewed in the context of three things (1) increasing individual dependency on government (2) increasing business dependency on government and (3) closing the economic gap via our national debt so that the number of options we have to turn back the tide become more limited….Obama has been very successful indeed.

            I can not for the life of me wrap my mind ahead the idea that we have people seeing Romney as an even greater risk. Not at this point. Not in comparison to the damage a second Obama term could bring.

          • http://www.thestandardcandle.com Justin Spagnolo

            The REAL Alternative
            That?s just it? Obama?s plan is ?kick the can down the road? on any issue that can?t be fixed without inflicting some real pain on people, his plan is to kick the can down the road, and get Republicans to agree to more spending out of necessity to keep things moving. Look I?m not heartless. I?m not rich. I?m not envious. And I?m certainly not persuaded by arguments of false charity, false hope, and false faith. But I have to say it, LIBERTY CAN?T EXIST WITHOUT OPPOSITION. You CAN?T enjoy the merits of opportunity, without the realities of risk, failure, and pain.

            THERE IS NO CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO A JOB. So reserve your moral judgements for moral issues. Any Job that exists? exists because someone had the liberty to innovate, create, and pursue their happiness. Government can?t exist without generating revenue from its citizens. I have empathy to those that lose their jobs. However, I don?t blame any capitalist for turning profits in any way they can, while the government does nothing to seriously put a stop to the unethical practices through damn fine policy and legislation. If you want to prevent ALL situations where someone might lose a job? You may as well have joined the socialist team. Giving credence to these narratives of the media is giving credence to their creeds of a socialist nature.

            Folks sometimes you have to rely on the fact that the sparrow doesn?t fall without the Father(Matthew 10:29), and when considering the lilies of the field (Luke 12:27) in all their non-spinning and non-toiling, even Solomon was not arrayed like one of these. Populism is not conservatism. Conservatism is based on principles. It?s based on life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I?m not defending Bain or any other capital firm for practices that may be unethical when you live in a Joe Biden Recession/Depression. I?m am talking about the fact that WE SHOULDN?T be involved in this narrative AT ALL. IN NO WAY is it appropriate. Joining the stream of the narrative, effectively causes us to lose sight of what is important. It causes us to view things from a very skewed perception. The more skewed our perceptions are, the more our ignorance will blind us to what is really important.

            Maybe the ignorance of my youthful idealism is blinding me to the fact that we should somehow be supporting populism, anti-capitalist, and class warfare views? This narrative is exactly the medicine the media wants us to take. It deflates the T.E.A. Party, It presents Obama as a caring, nurturing, bleeding heart for the ?little guy? that got laid off, and had to either find another job with his current skillset, or re-tool the skillset, and go after a diffferent job. Well LA-DEE-FRICKIN? DAH? I?m 31 and have already had to face economic realities of job loss, poor employment opportunities, and having to move from state to state, losing the value of my home to a vacuum created by the housing bubble?I don?t blame capitalists? I blame the government regulation and legislation that led to INTERVENTION of the Free Market. Call me quixotic, but I don?t have time to misdirect my energies on ?Government Solutions?? I want a President that will make the best decisions from a conservative view, not from a socialist?s view.

            This election is about DOOM DOOM DOOM DOOM DOOM for them? Not us?
            *WE NEED TO REMEMBER THAT* Conversely THEIR ONLY WINNING STRATEGY? is to cause the base to become discouraged, demoralized, disaffected, and disengaged. If Obama wins re-election, it will be due to failure to turn out the vote? if the enthusiasm to vote against him is removed? then the incumbency wields the victory

          • davenj1

            with this statement lineholder. People who are saying that Romney is anything like Obama or any previous GOP President or nominee that fails to match their definition of “Republican” have screws loose upstairs (saying it nicely…I can use other politically incorrect terms). Anything…ANYTHING(!) would be better than Obama.
            In 2008, was McCain the best choice? Absolutely not. I thought that his time was perhaps in 2000, but he ran like a scared squirrel when things got tough in South Carolina. But he was certainly better than the other choice- Obama. Is Romney the best choice in 2012? Again, absolutely not. I can probably name two or three other Republicans who would be better choices but decided to sit this one out. But he certainly is better than Obama.
            People need to face reality that Romney will be the nominee for the GOP. Your other choice is Obama. You can vote for either or sit this one out. But sitting it out is a vote for Obama. I really wish many of the people here would face that reality and stop dissing Romney because he does not fit THEIR definition of “Republican.”

    • lastgopinillinois

      What we have now is the RINO party with some Tea Party infiltrators in the House and very few conservatives in the Senate.

      Romney = “seriously” liberal (NOT conservative, NOT Republican)
      Santorum = RINO, big government, social conservative.
      Gingrich = Conservative (who wants to bring back the Republican Party)

      I like that last one !

      • http://www.thestandardcandle.com Justin Spagnolo

        I’m all for Newt. I want him to be our Nominee, if he wins tomorrow that’d be great, but if he doesn’t, he’s still got all of April and May to poke holes in Romney’s inevitability. Santorum may be imploding right now… we’ll see…

        If anything I want some of the “younger” folks around here to understand that conservativism isn’t an Event during an election year… it is a philosophy that drives policy and politics. Politics however will always remain party driven… if Conservatives, Libertarians, Reagan Democrats… etc want to be relevant they need to find the common ground within the party and work to build party planks around that… Newt Gingrich knows how to do this… so do most Politicians… if they didn’t they’d lose their re-election campaigns.

        In all honesty if you’re serious about fixing things, get educated by groups like American Majority, Heritage Action etc. Then get involved locally.

    • lineholder

      This one single point literally blows my mind sometimes…that people think “Oh, well, if the guy we don’t like on our side doesn’t behave exactly like we think he should, we’ll just bail on the whole deal, Obama will get a 2nd term, and THEN we’ll succeed”.

      The left underestimated the situation, quill…they honestly believed that our society was ready to embrace socialism. That didn’t happen. And in spite of all the warning indicators, they rammed O-care through anyway. But that wasn’t even close to getting what they wanted. They have SOOO much more planned. They need more time. Obama has been restrained in his first term by the need for more time, hence the need to get re-elected. He won’t face those restraints in a second term. It will be “full-throttle” ahead on “fundamentally transforming America”. And by the time he gets done, there may not be much we can do to turn back the tide.

    • dajeeps

      If all we get are a bunch of losers and end up with Obama and Democrats again anyway, then there really isn’t much point in continuing on. If we can’t beat one of the worst presidents of all time, then we might as well be a 3rd party because it’s the same as spending a decade, or more, doing nothing but rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic.

      This could very well be my last election cycle as a Republican, but at least I’m willing to give it go even if I don’t like the nominee – at all.

      • http://www.thestandardcandle.com Justin Spagnolo

        I hope you have many more cycles to vote Republican.

        • dajeeps

          But who really knows how this will all shake out. I find myself in company with folks that the only thing I have in common with is a rejection of full blown socialism, although that isn’t always entirely clear.

          Market conservatism isn’t all that compatible with other kinds of conservatives, and I’ve been rubbed the wrong way as I’ve noticed the different kinds of propaganda floating around, some of it profligate lies about money that if the originators ever got their way, which they have to some extent, would result in a social disaster similar to the Great Depression that has a revolving door. None of it is consistent with the expectation of individual self-sufficiency or limited government, yet the surface appearance has seeped into the collective. There is no way I can support that or look the other way without calling it out for what it is – evil.

          Some people call Romney evil for Romney Care, but it is a far lesser evil that what some of these ultra-conservatives who are to money what Rick Santorum is to social issues want. They are not my friends, not in the slightest.

          • http://www.thestandardcandle.com Justin Spagnolo

            Many conservatives seem to think that “boiled down” soundbites are biting and steadfast when it comes to discussion on complex matters both Social and Fiscal, and even Foreign Policy. Liberty is best served when people are educated, rather than manipulated into taking up a cause under false pretenses.

            As was stated in the diary…

            Political extremism in this context requires 2 elements:
            1. An over-simplified, and most likely naive diagnosis regarding the cause and effect of all the World?s ills. (see: Occutards, Paulistinians, Tin-Foil Hat Society, Conspiracy Theorists, Gold Investors that claim they?re insulated from the inevitable crash that is coming)
            2. An undeniable conviction born out of anxiety/kookiness that there are specific IDENTIFIABLE VILLAINS that must be stopped at all costs!

            this happens on the extremes on both sides… left and right.

            It is hard to bridle passions but remaint passionate in the fight to win others over. A sense of duty prevails in those that have a purpose driven life.

  • quill67

    That may not be true. I hope it is not true. He is talking like it is not true, but I am not convinced.

    I understand exactly that it might mean that things might not be undo if Obama is re-elected. But I also know that a Nixon pt 2 would take us over the cliff anyway AND without a fight. At least if it is Obama, we will fight him.

    Ask yourself honestly. Suppose Romney had come up with ObamaCare (well actually he did but just at the state level) How many Republicans would support it? Even if it was the same as ObamaCare..word for word. There are many Republicans who would trust their guy not to sell us out and would support it.

    • lineholder

      Not when you consider how the Obama admin has utilized the powers of the Executive branch to bypass Congress. How would we fight him?

      And you see taking a risk with Romney as being greater than this?

    • http://www.thestandardcandle.com Justin Spagnolo

      won’t answer a damn thing…

      in addition… I might daydream all day long until I forgot to get up off my couch and go vote… thereby nullifying any effect or opportunity I might have had to avoid any FUTURE bad legislation that comes about under THIS Democratic Party President.

  • quill67

    Ronald Reagan’s “Time for Choosing” Ask yourself what line you will allow our Republican nominee to cross. At what point do you say. ENOUGH!

    Transcript:

    Reagan: Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you and good evening. The sponsor has been identified, but unlike most television programs, the performer hasn’t been provided with a script. As a matter of fact, I have been permitted to choose my own words and discuss my own ideas regarding the choice that we face in the next few weeks.

    I have spent most of my life as a Democrat. I recently have seen fit to follow another course. I believe that the issues confronting us cross party lines. Now, one side in this campaign has been telling us that the issues of this election are the maintenance of peace and prosperity. The line has been used, “We’ve never had it so good.”

    But I have an uncomfortable feeling that this prosperity isn’t something on which we can base our hopes for the future. No nation in history has ever survived a tax burden that reached a third of its national income. Today, 37 cents out of every dollar earned in this country is the tax collector’s share, and yet our government continues to spend 17 million dollars a day more than the government takes in. We haven’t balanced our budget 28 out of the last 34 years. We’ve raised our debt limit three times in the last twelve months, and now our national debt is one and a half times bigger than all the combined debts of all the nations of the world. We have 15 billion dollars in gold in our treasury; we don’t own an ounce. Foreign dollar claims are 27.3 billion dollars. And we’ve just had announced that the dollar of 1939 will now purchase 45 cents in its total value.

    As for the peace that we would preserve, I wonder who among us would like to approach the wife or mother whose husband or son has died in South Vietnam and ask them if they think this is a peace that should be maintained indefinitely. Do they mean peace, or do they mean we just want to be left in peace? There can be no real peace while one American is dying some place in the world for the rest of us. We’re at war with the most dangerous enemy that has ever faced mankind in his long climb from the swamp to the stars, and it’s been said if we lose that war, and in so doing lose this way of freedom of ours, history will record with the greatest astonishment that those who had the most to lose did the least to prevent its happening. Well I think it’s time we ask ourselves if we still know the freedoms that were intended for us by the Founding Fathers.

    Not too long ago, two friends of mine were talking to a Cuban refugee, a businessman who had escaped from Castro, and in the midst of his story one of my friends turned to the other and said, “We don’t know how lucky we are.” And the Cuban stopped and said, “How lucky you are? I had someplace to escape to.” And in that sentence he told us the entire story. If we lose freedom here, there’s no place to escape to. This is the last stand on earth.

    And this idea that government is beholden to the people, that it has no other source of power except the sovereign people, is still the newest and the most unique idea in all the long history of man’s relation to man.

    This is the issue of this election: whether we believe in our capacity for self-government or whether we abandon the American revolution and confess that a little intellectual elite in a far-distant capitol can plan our lives for us better than we can plan them ourselves.

    You and I are told increasingly we have to choose between a left or right. Well I’d like to suggest there is no such thing as a left or right. There’s only an up or down: [up] man’s old — old-aged dream, the ultimate in individual freedom consistent with law and order, or down to the ant heap of totalitarianism. And regardless of their sincerity, their humanitarian motives, those who would trade our freedom for security have embarked on this downward course.

    In this vote-harvesting time, they use terms like the “Great Society,” or as we were told a few days ago by the President, we must accept a greater government activity in the affairs of the people. But they’ve been a little more explicit in the past and among themselves; and all of the things I now will quote have appeared in print. These are not Republican accusations. For example, they have voices that say, “The cold war will end through our acceptance of a not undemocratic socialism.” Another voice says, “The profit motive has become outmoded. It must be replaced by the incentives of the welfare state.” Or, “Our traditional system of individual freedom is incapable of solving the complex problems of the 20th century.” Senator Fulbright has said at Stanford University that the Constitution is outmoded. He referred to the President as “our moral teacher and our leader,” and he says he is “hobbled in his task by the restrictions of power imposed on him by this antiquated document.” He must “be freed,” so that he “can do for us” what he knows “is best.” And Senator Clark of Pennsylvania, another articulate spokesman, defines liberalism as “meeting the material needs of the masses through the full power of centralized government.”

    Well, I, for one, resent it when a representative of the people refers to you and me, the free men and women of this country, as “the masses.” This is a term we haven’t applied to ourselves in America. But beyond that, “the full power of centralized government” — this was the very thing the Founding Fathers sought to minimize. They knew that governments don’t control things. A government can’t control the economy without controlling people. And they know when a government sets out to do that, it must use force and coercion to achieve its purpose. They also knew, those Founding Fathers, that outside of its legitimate functions, government does nothing as well or as economically as the private sector of the economy.

    Now, we have no better example of this than government’s involvement in the farm economy over the last 30 years. Since 1955, the cost of this program has nearly doubled. One-fourth of farming in America is responsible for 85% of the farm surplus. Three-fourths of farming is out on the free market and has known a 21% increase in the per capita consumption of all its produce. You see, that one-fourth of farming — that’s regulated and controlled by the federal government. In the last three years we’ve spent 43 dollars in the feed grain program for every dollar bushel of corn we don’t grow.

    Senator Humphrey last week charged that Barry Goldwater, as President, would seek to eliminate farmers. He should do his homework a little better, because he’ll find out that we’ve had a decline of 5 million in the farm population under these government programs. He’ll also find that the Democratic administration has sought to get from Congress [an] extension of the farm program to include that three-fourths that is now free. He’ll find that they’ve also asked for the right to imprison farmers who wouldn’t keep books as prescribed by the federal government. The Secretary of Agriculture asked for the right to seize farms through condemnation and resell them to other individuals. And contained in that same program was a provision that would have allowed the federal government to remove 2 million farmers from the soil.

    At the same time, there’s been an increase in the Department of Agriculture employees. There’s now one for every 30 farms in the United States, and still they can’t tell us how 66 shiploads of grain headed for Austria disappeared without a trace and Billie Sol Estes never left shore.

    Every responsible farmer and farm organization has repeatedly asked the government to free the farm economy, but how — who are farmers to know what’s best for them? The wheat farmers voted against a wheat program. The government passed it anyway. Now the price of bread goes up; the price of wheat to the farmer goes down.

    Meanwhile, back in the city, under urban renewal the assault on freedom carries on. Private property rights [are] so diluted that public interest is almost anything a few government planners decide it should be. In a program that takes from the needy and gives to the greedy, we see such spectacles as in Cleveland, Ohio, a million-and-a-half-dollar building completed only three years ago must be destroyed to make way for what government officials call a “more compatible use of the land.” The President tells us he’s now going to start building public housing units in the thousands, where heretofore we’ve only built them in the hundreds. But FHA [Federal Housing Authority] and the Veterans Administration tell us they have 120,000 housing units they’ve taken back through mortgage foreclosure. For three decades, we’ve sought to solve the problems of unemployment through government planning, and the more the plans fail, the more the planners plan. The latest is the Area Redevelopment Agency.

    They’ve just declared Rice County, Kansas, a depressed area. Rice County, Kansas, has two hundred oil wells, and the 14,000 people there have over 30 million dollars on deposit in personal savings in their banks. And when the government tells you you’re depressed, lie down and be depressed.

    We have so many people who can’t see a fat man standing beside a thin one without coming to the conclusion the fat man got that way by taking advantage of the thin one. So they’re going to solve all the problems of human misery through government and government planning. Well, now, if government planning and welfare had the answer — and they’ve had almost 30 years of it — shouldn’t we expect government to read the score to us once in a while? Shouldn’t they be telling us about the decline each year in the number of people needing help? The reduction in the need for public housing?

    But the reverse is true. Each year the need grows greater; the program grows greater. We were told four years ago that 17 million people went to bed hungry each night. Well that was probably true. They were all on a diet. But now we’re told that 9.3 million families in this country are poverty-stricken on the basis of earning less than 3,000 dollars a year. Welfare spending [is] 10 times greater than in the dark depths of the Depression. We’re spending 45 billion dollars on welfare. Now do a little arithmetic, and you’ll find that if we divided the 45 billion dollars up equally among those 9 million poor families, we’d be able to give each family 4,600 dollars a year. And this added to their present income should eliminate poverty. Direct aid to the poor, however, is only running only about 600 dollars per family. It would seem that someplace there must be some overhead.

    Now — so now we declare “war on poverty,” or “You, too, can be a Bobby Baker.” Now do they honestly expect us to believe that if we add 1 billion dollars to the 45 billion we’re spending, one more program to the 30-odd we have — and remember, this new program doesn’t replace any, it just duplicates existing programs — do they believe that poverty is suddenly going to disappear by magic? Well, in all fairness I should explain there is one part of the new program that isn’t duplicated. This is the youth feature. We’re now going to solve the dropout problem, juvenile delinquency, by reinstituting something like the old CCC camps [Civilian Conservation Corps], and we’re going to put our young people in these camps. But again we do some arithmetic, and we find that we’re going to spend each year just on room and board for each young person we help 4,700 dollars a year. We can send them to Harvard for 2,700! Course, don’t get me wrong. I’m not suggesting Harvard is the answer to juvenile delinquency.

    But seriously, what are we doing to those we seek to help? Not too long ago, a judge called me here in Los Angeles. He told me of a young woman who’d come before him for a divorce. She had six children, was pregnant with her seventh. Under his questioning, she revealed her husband was a laborer earning 250 dollars a month. She wanted a divorce to get an 80 dollar raise. She’s eligible for 330 dollars a month in the Aid to Dependent Children Program. She got the idea from two women in her neighborhood who’d already done that very thing.

    Yet anytime you and I question the schemes of the do-gooders, we’re denounced as being against their humanitarian goals. They say we’re always “against” things — we’re never “for” anything.

    Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they’re ignorant; it’s just that they know so much that isn’t so.

    Now — we’re for a provision that destitution should not follow unemployment by reason of old age, and to that end we’ve accepted Social Security as a step toward meeting the problem.

    But we’re against those entrusted with this program when they practice deception regarding its fiscal shortcomings, when they charge that any criticism of the program means that we want to end payments to those people who depend on them for a livelihood. They’ve called it “insurance” to us in a hundred million pieces of literature. But then they appeared before the Supreme Court and they testified it was a welfare program. They only use the term “insurance” to sell it to the people. And they said Social Security dues are a tax for the general use of the government, and the government has used that tax. There is no fund, because Robert Byers, the actuarial head, appeared before a congressional committee and admitted that Social Security as of this moment is 298 billion dollars in the hole. But he said there should be no cause for worry because as long as they have the power to tax, they could always take away from the people whatever they needed to bail them out of trouble. And they’re doing just that.

    A young man, 21 years of age, working at an average salary — his Social Security contribution would, in the open market, buy him an insurance policy that would guarantee 220 dollars a month at age 65. The government promises 127. He could live it up until he’s 31 and then take out a policy that would pay more than Social Security. Now are we so lacking in business sense that we can’t put this program on a sound basis, so that people who do require those payments will find they can get them when they’re due — that the cupboard isn’t bare?

    Barry Goldwater thinks we can.

    At the same time, can’t we introduce voluntary features that would permit a citizen who can do better on his own to be excused upon presentation of evidence that he had made provision for the non-earning years? Should we not allow a widow with children to work, and not lose the benefits supposedly paid for by her deceased husband? Shouldn’t you and I be allowed to declare who our beneficiaries will be under this program, which we cannot do? I think we’re for telling our senior citizens that no one in this country should be denied medical care because of a lack of funds. But I think we’re against forcing all citizens, regardless of need, into a compulsory government program, especially when we have such examples, as was announced last week, when France admitted that their Medicare program is now bankrupt. They’ve come to the end of the road.

    In addition, was Barry Goldwater so irresponsible when he suggested that our government give up its program of deliberate, planned inflation, so that when you do get your Social Security pension, a dollar will buy a dollar’s worth, and not 45 cents worth?

    I think we’re for an international organization, where the nations of the world can seek peace. But I think we’re against subordinating American interests to an organization that has become so structurally unsound that today you can muster a two-thirds vote on the floor of the General Assembly among nations that represent less than 10 percent of the world’s population. I think we’re against the hypocrisy of assailing our allies because here and there they cling to a colony, while we engage in a conspiracy of silence and never open our mouths about the millions of people enslaved in the Soviet colonies in the satellite nations.

    I think we’re for aiding our allies by sharing of our material blessings with those nations which share in our fundamental beliefs, but we’re against doling out money government to government, creating bureaucracy, if not socialism, all over the world. We set out to help 19 countries. We’re helping 107. We’ve spent 146 billion dollars. With that money, we bought a 2 million dollar yacht for Haile Selassie. We bought dress suits for Greek undertakers, extra wives for Kenya[n] government officials. We bought a thousand TV sets for a place where they have no electricity. In the last six years, 52 nations have bought 7 billion dollars worth of our gold, and all 52 are receiving foreign aid from this country.

    No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. So, governments’ programs, once launched, never disappear.

    Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we’ll ever see on this earth.

    Federal employees — federal employees number two and a half million; and federal, state, and local, one out of six of the nation’s work force employed by government. These proliferating bureaus with their thousands of regulations have cost us many of our constitutional safeguards. How many of us realize that today federal agents can invade a man’s property without a warrant? They can impose a fine without a formal hearing, let alone a trial by jury? And they can seize and sell his property at auction to enforce the payment of that fine. In Chico County, Arkansas, James Wier over-planted his rice allotment. The government obtained a 17,000 dollar judgment. And a U.S. marshal sold his 960-acre farm at auction. The government said it was necessary as a warning to others to make the system work.

    Last February 19th at the University of Minnesota, Norman Thomas, six-times candidate for President on the Socialist Party ticket, said, “If Barry Goldwater became President, he would stop the advance of socialism in the United States.” I think that’s exactly what he will do.

    But as a former Democrat, I can tell you Norman Thomas isn’t the only man who has drawn this parallel to socialism with the present administration, because back in 1936, Mr. Democrat himself, Al Smith, the great American, came before the American people and charged that the leadership of his Party was taking the Party of Jefferson, Jackson, and Cleveland down the road under the banners of Marx, Lenin, and Stalin. And he walked away from his Party, and he never returned til the day he died — because to this day, the leadership of that Party has been taking that Party, that honorable Party, down the road in the image of the labor Socialist Party of England.

    Now it doesn’t require expropriation or confiscation of private property or business to impose socialism on a people. What does it mean whether you hold the deed to the — or the title to your business or property if the government holds the power of life and death over that business or property? And such machinery already exists. The government can find some charge to bring against any concern it chooses to prosecute. Every businessman has his own tale of harassment. Somewhere a perversion has taken place. Our natural, unalienable rights are now considered to be a dispensation of government, and freedom has never been so fragile, so close to slipping from our grasp as it is at this moment.

    Our Democratic opponents seem unwilling to debate these issues. They want to make you and I believe that this is a contest between two men — that we’re to choose just between two personalities.

    Well what of this man that they would destroy — and in destroying, they would destroy that which he represents, the ideas that you and I hold dear? Is he the brash and shallow and trigger-happy man they say he is? Well I’ve been privileged to know him “when.” I knew him long before he ever dreamed of trying for high office, and I can tell you personally I’ve never known a man in my life I believed so incapable of doing a dishonest or dishonorable thing.

    This is a man who, in his own business before he entered politics, instituted a profit-sharing plan before unions had ever thought of it. He put in health and medical insurance for all his employees. He took 50 percent of the profits before taxes and set up a retirement program, a pension plan for all his employees. He sent monthly checks for life to an employee who was ill and couldn’t work. He provides nursing care for the children of mothers who work in the stores. When Mexico was ravaged by the floods in the Rio Grande, he climbed in his airplane and flew medicine and supplies down there.

    An ex-GI told me how he met him. It was the week before Christmas during the Korean War, and he was at the Los Angeles airport trying to get a ride home to Arizona for Christmas. And he said that [there were] a lot of servicemen there and no seats available on the planes. And then a voice came over the loudspeaker and said, “Any men in uniform wanting a ride to Arizona, go to runway such-and-such,” and they went down there, and there was a fellow named Barry Goldwater sitting in his plane. Every day in those weeks before Christmas, all day long, he’d load up the plane, fly it to Arizona, fly them to their homes, fly back over to get another load.

    During the hectic split-second timing of a campaign, this is a man who took time out to sit beside an old friend who was dying of cancer. His campaign managers were understandably impatient, but he said, “There aren’t many left who care what happens to her. I’d like her to know I care.” This is a man who said to his 19-year-old son, “There is no foundation like the rock of honesty and fairness, and when you begin to build your life on that rock, with the cement of the faith in God that you have, then you have a real start.” This is not a man who could carelessly send other people’s sons to war. And that is the issue of this campaign that makes all the other problems I’ve discussed academic, unless we realize we’re in a war that must be won.

    Those who would trade our freedom for the soup kitchen of the welfare state have told us they have a utopian solution of peace without victory. They call their policy “accommodation.” And they say if we’ll only avoid any direct confrontation with the enemy, he’ll forget his evil ways and learn to love us. All who oppose them are indicted as warmongers. They say we offer simple answers to complex problems. Well, perhaps there is a simple answer — not an easy answer — but simple: If you and I have the courage to tell our elected officials that we want our national policy based on what we know in our hearts is morally right.

    We cannot buy our security, our freedom from the threat of the bomb by committing an immorality so great as saying to a billion human beings now enslaved behind the Iron Curtain, “Give up your dreams of freedom because to save our own skins, we’re willing to make a deal with your slave masters.” Alexander Hamilton said, “A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one.” Now let’s set the record straight. There’s no argument over the choice between peace and war, but there’s only one guaranteed way you can have peace — and you can have it in the next second — surrender.

    Admittedly, there’s a risk in any course we follow other than this, but every lesson of history tells us that the greater risk lies in appeasement, and this is the specter our well-meaning liberal friends refuse to face — that their policy of accommodation is appeasement, and it gives no choice between peace and war, only between fight or surrender. If we continue to accommodate, continue to back and retreat, eventually we have to face the final demand — the ultimatum. And what then — when Nikita Khrushchev has told his people he knows what our answer will be? He has told them that we’re retreating under the pressure of the Cold War, and someday when the time comes to deliver the final ultimatum, our surrender will be voluntary, because by that time we will have been weakened from within spiritually, morally, and economically. He believes this because from our side he’s heard voices pleading for “peace at any price” or “better Red than dead,” or as one commentator put it, he’d rather “live on his knees than die on his feet.” And therein lies the road to war, because those voices don’t speak for the rest of us.

    You and I know and do not believe that life is so dear and peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery. If nothing in life is worth dying for, when did this begin — just in the face of this enemy? Or should Moses have told the children of Israel to live in slavery under the pharaohs? Should Christ have refused the cross? Should the patriots at Concord Bridge have thrown down their guns and refused to fire the shot heard ’round the world? The martyrs of history were not fools, and our honored dead who gave their lives to stop the advance of the Nazis didn’t die in vain. Where, then, is the road to peace? Well it’s a simple answer after all.

    You and I have the courage to say to our enemies, “There is a price we will not pay.” “There is a point beyond which they must not advance.” And this — this is the meaning in the phrase of Barry Goldwater’s “peace through strength.” Winston Churchill said, “The destiny of man is not measured by material computations. When great forces are on the move in the world, we learn we’re spirits — not animals.” And he said, “There’s something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty.”

    You and I have a rendezvous with destiny.

    We’ll preserve for our children this, the last best hope of man on earth, or we’ll sentence them to take the last step into a thousand years of darkness.

    We will keep in mind and remember that Barry Goldwater has faith in us. He has faith that you and I have the ability and the dignity and the right to make our own decisions and determine our own destiny.

    Thank you very much.

    • http://www.thestandardcandle.com Justin Spagnolo

      If you wanted to know my thoughts… YOU SHOULD HAVE GONE HERE AND COMMENTED

      • http://www.thestandardcandle.com Justin Spagnolo

        Shear pragmatism tells me my choices are between Romney and Gingrich. Phooey. I can be for conservatism by focusing on candidates that understand that Reagan?s legacy isn?t about Reagan the man, it?s about how Reagan the man lived according to the dictates of his conscience, and not being tossed to and fro by every wind of electorate feet stamping.

        I?m just a little tired of the opportunists. The folks that go about with levity and the wherewithal to denigrate the integrity of our candidates due to their preferences of conservative dogma?

        It seems to me that there has been a great deal of weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth that is entirely the effect of less rational adults that never got passed their childish tantrums as a means to getting what they want. Just about every parent has experienced this phenomenon where the child often can?t see beyond their immediate wants.

        Well I may not prefer Romney, and I may not prefer Gingrich? but I certainly don?t want Obama as a President. That alone is enough for me to face the reality that I can?t sit on the fence in the general. However for the primary, I?ve given up the hope that the conservative electorate of Republicans will have an opportunity to find a candidate that received the Mantle of Reagan by effectively communicating conservative principles, as opposed to opportunists that would like to co-opt a legacy to claim political superiority.

      • quill67

        It’s late and I should already be in bed.

        But I listened to it again just now AND it is amazing how you just substitute a few words and it could have been written today.

        Healthcare is the line for me. So I need to know more about Romney’s plan to have the Federal Government not just provide aid for the needy but also provide for the uninsured. If he does it the right way, I can support him.

        If he wants the Fed to dictate what our health insurance will be using the pressure on the states rather than directly from the government, then I will be looking for someone else to vote for even in the general.

        Any Republican who talks about taking over our health care system, 1/7 th of our economy, whether it is direct or indirect will not get my support.

        Good Nite!

        • http://www.thestandardcandle.com Justin Spagnolo

          And instead of “sitting out”… he became MORE involved, eventually becoming the Nominee…

          It would be difficult to measure any of our candidates against this speech and not feel like we’re a little short in the whole cloth conservatism that Reagan lays out in this speech.

        • circlegranch

          We are moving closer and closer to the 140 character tweets and revamp of the English language in the form of text messages as being the primary source of information gathering. Too many people won’t read anything that’s longer than either and we wonder why so many people are uninformed or misinformed. Everybody’s in a big hurry to get the facts in a sentence. Life doesn’t happen quite that conveniently and in tune with our busy I-only-have-time-for-one-sentence lifestyles. Knowledge is an ongoing process that requires study and a time commitment and it reaches across all the candidates and all issues. Life doesn’t happen in a tweet. For people not willing to invest time to learn they are going to be in the dark. Pure and simple.

          Trusting you had a good night’s rest!

          • http://www.thestandardcandle.com Justin Spagnolo

            The apology wasn’t for posting a wonderful speech by a wonderful man… it was for threadjacking.

            Still you make a good point…. if you watch the video notice how the crowd sits attentive and leans in to the speaker… today it’s hard to find that sort of reverence for a speaker…

  • unsk

    I have a question for Romney supporters:

    On what issues would Romney govern differently than Obama?

    The answer to that question is you don’t know. Etch a Sketch Man has essentially told us he is a blank Progressive slate. But we have a pretty good idea that Romney wouldn’t cut spending, will raise taxes, and won’t abolish Obamacare because against all reasonable conservative opinion to the contrary and to his detriment in the primaries, he has held to those positions.

    So tell me again why I should vote for Willard.

    • http://www.thestandardcandle.com Justin Spagnolo

      I can’t answer your pre answered open ended question….

      I can say that I am not telling you to vote for mitt… I am saying sabre rattling about 3rd parties is a futile exercise… decide for yourself what you do.

    • acat

      There’s a fundamental philosophical difference between the two – Obama seeks to increase the size and scope of the government, Romney seeks to make the government we have more efficient.

      Obama seeks to grow the government by displacing the private sector, Romney won’t necessarily shrink the government, but he won’t grow it.

      Obama is a socialist or marxist, depending on where one draws lines in the sand .. Romney is a business guy, so is a socialist or capitalist – again, depending on where one draws certain lines.

      Is Romney going to be Reagan? Unlikely. Is Romney going to be better than Obama? Definitely.

      Mew

      • quill67

        He has said he plans to provide aid to states beyond Medicare to fund the uninsured. That is one heck of a big increase in government scope.

        • quill67

          And this is what is so scary. Once the Feds provide aid to the “uninsured” they will start telling the states exactly what must be covered.

          Romney has this on his Website, Acat and in his USA today editorial.

          You can read more about this in my recent diary on the topic:

          http://www.redstate.com/quill67/2012/03/23/it-took-nixon-to-go-to-china-and-it-took-romney-to-kill-private-healthcare/

          • acat

            Currently, every State mandates what health plans sold in-state must cover. This is why conservatives have called for policies to be sold across state lines – it will reduce the artificial barriers to entry and save us all a buck…. but it requires States to standardize coverage models.

            Your diary falsely conflates this with “government takeover of health care”… which is false. The States have been regulating health insurance for decades now, so .. should we blame whoever was in the White House at that time?

            Further, Medicare and Medicaid are significantly different. The former would be much more efficient if it were run as a block grant to the States, like Medicaid .. and would have less fraud and abuse because the States are better equipped to go after local fraudsters.

            As for government paying for health care, the reason Gingrich championed HIPPA, back in the day, is because government – through Medicare, Medicaid, TriCare, the VA system, the Bureau of Indian Affairs, etc. etc., ALREADY dwarfs any single private health insurance carrier.

            Unless you have a way to roll all that back, your argument that “Romney will make it worse because…” lacks teeth – we all know Willard won’t be shrinking government….

            In short, your argument seems based on your perception and some severe misunderstandings of the scope of the problem…
            and I agree both that there is a problem and that Romney won’t fix it.

            The trouble is, short of nominating Gingrich – who at least understood the scope – I don’t see a fix for it in this election cycle.

            Mew

        • acat

          that the Fed already pays Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, and now Obamacare.

          We already know Romney doesn’t have enough of a problem with Obamacare, which is one reason I’ve said – repeatedly – that Romney’s a lousy candidate.

          So .. unless you have something new here… it’s just more of what we already know. The problem is, Santorum’s worse.

          Mew

          • quill67

            Background:

            Currently, the Federal government blocks grants aid to stays to cover their Medicaid eligible residents. This does NOT include money for the uninsured who may have incomes beyond those allowed for Medicaid.

            Romney wants to change this. He now wants to provide aid to the states to provide for the uninsured. In his own words:

            Just two days ago, in his editorial in USA Today he said

            “I favor giving each of the 50 states the resources and the responsibility to craft the health care solutions that suit their citizens best.”

            Well, if you give the states the Resources to produce health care solutions “that suit their citizens best” this is what we do with Medicaid now BUT now would add the uninsured.

            This is a big expansion in government.

            In his position paper on the issue he states:

            http://www.gohealthinsurance.com/politics/mitt-romney.html

            Romney’s proposal is based upon the “federalist” model, which means the state governments would have the most say in how they would provide coverage for their uninsured residents.

            Most say? But not all? What role does he want the Feds to take and would not a Democrat President expand this role?

            In this same policy paper, he says

            “His plan would redirect federal money that is currently being used to help states pay for the care of uninsured residents. Those funds would instead be given to states to help residents purchase their own plans in the private market

            This is exactly what Romney did in Massachusetts.

            YEAH! Romney care for everyone!

            Note: This phrasing has been removed from Romney’s website in the last couple of weeks, but I found it

            “Give states the responsibility, flexibility and resources to care for citizens who are poor, uninsured or chronically ill.”

            So the states will have the responsibility and the Fed will give them the “resources” .

            Who will make sure they live up to Romney’s expectation of their responsibility?

            More Romney Quotess

            “We can empower states to expand health care access to low-income Americans by block-granting funds for Medicaid and the uninsured My reforms also offer the states resources to help the chronically ill . ? both to improve their access to care and to improve the functioning of insurance markets for others.

            So Romney will have the Federal Government also provide for the chronically ill—how nice.

            http://www.tcunation.com/profiles/blogs/can-we-trust-romney-s-words-on-obamacare

            Finally, I will remind everyone that Romney implied Perry was not compassionate for allowing over a “million kids” to be without health insurance. Never mind the fact that the state of Texas provides for clinics and other measures (but not insurance) to help those without insurance. Like any good liberal Romney’s view is that getting health care is not enough it must be health insurance.

          • texastaxpayer

            Can’t act like his record isn’t clear as to how he plans to govern.

      • http://www.timothy-bladel.com/ center77

        I’m willing to bet he would do what ever the polls tell him should do. That is still a step up from Obama, but I can’t say how large of a step it is.

    • radicalrighty

      1) Would nominate conservatives to Supreme Court
      2) Would open up fed lands for drilling and mining our energy resources
      3) Would submitt balanced budgets annually
      4) Would restructure tax system
      5) Would drastically cut many dept including IRS and EPA
      6) Would fight (w/ Paul Ryan) to end baseline budgeting and begin process to eliminate deficit
      7) Would load the NLRB with business-friendly folks

      I’m sure there are others, but one of the most important is:

      8) Replace Eric Holder as AG

  • sulmak

    At the time Republican was a third party that had never won a presidential election.

    • acat

      appear to have lost their way rather badly, allowing the Republicans to pick up not just votes, but also many candidates.

      Two of the reasons you don’t see a third party after that are:

      A – the major parties now co-opt the message of any issues-based third party, add it to the party platform, and then ignore it. (this is why the Dems went full-enviro-greenie a while back ..)

      B – it’s significantly easier for an ideological-based organization to get a seat at the table through exactly what Cold Warrior proposes. Put another way, you don’t think the Dems *stayed* anti-war / anti-armed-services after Viet Nam by chance, do you?

      Mew

      • texastaxpayer

        Evidence? Mitt Romney nomination 2012.

        • acat

          The Dole nomination, where the GOP proved it had learned nothing from 1992…

          If you really want to change the party, join it – as a precinct committeeman.

          Mew

          • acat

            better to see if you can join True The Vote.

            Mew

          • texastaxpayer

            Huh?

          • Melody Warbington (rwm52)

            From TTV:

            An initiative developed by citizens for citizens to inspire and equip volunteers for involvement at every stage of our electoral process and to actively protect the rights of legitimate voters regardless of race or party affiliation.

            My local tea party is working with GOTV (Get Out The Vote), GOTTPV (Get Out The Tea Party Vote), and True the Vote. All in an effort to register conservative voters, and stop and expose voter fraud.

          • gracie

            http://www.kingstreetpatriots.org/news/news/true-the-vote-summit

            True the Vote was started by the King Street Patriots in Houston,one of the greatest Tea Parties in the US. The then small group set out to watch polls and investigate lists to get rid of rampant voter fraud.

            This project has extended thoughout the US! They are having a summit in April but if you live near Houston and want to participate I am sure you can volunteer without spending the big bucks for the seminar. I am sure they will let you know what is going on in your area.
            Hope you don’t mind my butting in kitty.

          • texastaxpayer

            Thx for the info. I had heard about them in Wisconsin just didn’t realise they were operating here as well. Guess I have been to focused on the national races and the many many lawsuits the good governor of Texas Rick Perry is fighting against Obama. I made a donation and will look into this further and see what I can do to help.

        • lapert

          If an anti-war movement managed to replace Bush as the nominee in 2004 it would be comparable – nominating a run of the mill politician doesn’t even come close.

    • lapert

      The Whig party was essentially dead in 1856 and the Republicans where cleanly the second party to the Democrats at that time – they finished second in the Presidential election, had the second most seats in the Senate and House by large margins.

  • rightland1111

    It is time that we make significant changes in the current Republican Party. There are many members in this party that need to go and go quickly. I am a Conservative…not real right…but definitely on the right side with a Libertarian slant. I want our Constitution upheld.

    The current Republican Party has said nothing of Obama’s EO’s, most of which fly in the face of the Constitution. They won’t even open their mouths about the First Amendment debacle. What is the matter with them?

    If I call Boehner’s office…I get lip service. My senator is not being primaried…and I am not happy about that…big government spender, Saxby Chambliss. Canter is a big disappointment…he is inconsistent. McConnell, Hatch, Lugar…I think Hagel is still here need to be replaced with true Conservatives.

    I know…Mrs. Doom and Gloom. However, I think this country is in serious denial and we are going down quicker than we thought. Should Obama get re-elected, we will see another Third Reich…in the country that used to stand for freedom.

    • http://www.thestandardcandle.com Justin Spagnolo

      In another thread I recommended conservatives move from analysis to action by getting in on the local precinct committees and get training from American Majority or Heritage Action … if conservatives aren’t winning hearts and minds locally… we’ll lose primaries and influence … we have to pick our battles while we clean house… in some areas GOP is country club only… in others they’re in purple areas… pushing the whole process to the right won’t be a single election ….

      Conservatives have a huge opportunity through technology and changes in media to run a new Goldwater revolution… we meed to bring libertarians into our social causes by helping them understand freedom of religion and conscience social issues protect liberty… that much of what is liberal in social liberalism is libetine preferences not equal protection under the law

  • Flagstaff

    2. An undeniable conviction born out of anxiety/kookiness that there are specific IDENTIFIABLE VILLAINS that must be stopped at all costs!

    Which made me think, gee, that’s exactly what we all believe, and the villain resides in the White House. Are we political extremists?

    Then I went back to check it and saw

    Political extremism in this context requires 2 elements:
    1. An over-simplified, and most likely naive diagnosis regarding the cause and effect of all the World?s ills. (see: Occutards, Paulistinians, Tin-Foil Hat Society, Conspiracy Theorists, Gold Investors that claim they?re insulated from the inevitable crash that is coming)

    Whew! Element 1 is definitely not present. It isn’t oversimplified or naive to believe that although Obama isn’t necessarily to blame for all of our problems, he is the reason many of them have become worse on his watch, and they’d get better if he were not there.

    I guess we’d be doing better if we could imbue the Republican party with the proper sense of cause and effect and the conviction that the villain has to be stopped at all costs. Wait a minute, we almost all do believe those things. We’re now arguing about peripheral issues, and some people are threatening a 3rd party to champion those issues instead of the most important one–replace Obama.

    Folks, there really isn’t any third-party issue that isn’t addressed by banding together to defeat Obama. An attempt to create one, simply because of dissatisfaction with the nominee on some issue or even substantively (he is actually a Flat-Earth Society member with a picture of Dorian Gray in his attic), will still, inevitably, result in a dilution of the support for the main issue–replace Obama.

    Stay united and succeed, divide and be conquered.

    Way to go, Justin!

    • http://www.thestandardcandle.com Justin Spagnolo

      This:

      We?re now arguing about peripheral issues, and some people are threatening a 3rd party to champion those issues instead of the most important one?replace Obama.

      Folks, there really isn?t any third-party issue that isn?t addressed by banding together to defeat Obama. An attempt to create one, simply because of dissatisfaction with the nominee on some issue or even substantively (he is actually a Flat-Earth Society member with a picture of Dorian Gray in his attic), will still, inevitably, result in a dilution of the support for the main issue?replace Obama.

      Makes me smile (it would have gone in nicely between these paragraphs!)

      A 3rd Party no matter what it is, is an ?issue-driven? party, which is to suggest that the ?issue? must be taken up as a ?cause?, and a ?cause? will most definitely require winning hearts and minds to Modify, Repeal, or Create new laws. Look at the list above, and tell me that any of those 3rd Parties weren?t just really large issue-driven movements that were not about political philosophy as much as they were about ideological purity.

      Movements are progressive in nature (no not that kind of progressive ? calm down), and they of necessity require consensus within a party that wins an election to bring about the desired goal of some sort of policy, law, or amendment enacted to revolutionize or reform our constitution or titles, codes, and policies. (There are some amendments that are necessary, but many often cause more litigiousness and immoral justification for removing individual liberties in favor of governance and government intervention ? thereby creating dependence, not fostering independence)

      There is nothing wrong with being part of a movement. There is nothing wrong with wanting to amend the constitution (we are a free society to do so). There is however something VERY wrong with candidates and their loyalists that drop out of a party to challenge an election with a 3rd party issue driven campaign, hoping to drive wedges rather than working within the confines of consensus within the party.

      You might also enjoy my diary on Division spells (D)-(I)Vision”

  • texastaxpayer

    Why not compile one detailing the REUBLICAN “LOOZERS” and what they all had in common. Big government big spending rinos have just about as impressive a record as that third party list of yours.
    Ford
    HW
    Dole
    Mccain
    Just to get you started….

    You can also list the “LOOZERS” who had a 39.6% approval rating at this point. Here is a hint in the last 30 plus years it only contains one name from either party. Mitt “Obama should follow what we did in my state” Romney.

    What I fiind most revolting about your diary is your Insistance that somehow abandoning ones own judgment, priorities and principles is not only honorable but somehow required. I for one do not OWE MY VOTE TO ANYONE OF ANY PARTY. I recoginize something you seem to be missing. This is about saving our nation and way of life not political parties. Perhaps instead of blinding pulling the lever for a party that has let us down time and again you should actually consider what it is you believe and stand for. Once you have that figured out then vote your conscience. I can promise you one simple thing. If more people did that instead of following the corrupted logic of sheeple like you we would have a much better nation today.

    P.S.
    A vote for Obama is a vote for Obama period. Your stupid ploy conflating not supporting the big government big spending rino with supporting the big government big spending liberal is pathetic even for you. Candy for the simple minded….

    • quill67

      Well stated.

      • http://www.thestandardcandle.com Justin Spagnolo

        noatexts

    • http://www.thestandardcandle.com Justin Spagnolo

      1. Ford was a sitting president when he lost (he became president due to a major scandal, previous to that he became Vice President due to s major scandal, and he never was elected to office for either)
      2. George HW Bush was a sitting president when he lost. (AND HE LOST DUE TO A 3rd Party Challenge!)
      3. Dole was a senator, never governor… people without executive experience tend to make bad candidates.
      4. McCain (see 3).

      Any others you care to discuss? Last I checked, Santorum was a Senator, never a governor… and NEVER a leader of a movement. If he drops out and calls for a 3rd party to get behind his new-found movement… HE will be the one turning his back on HIS principles. (nice try)

      NOW… Let’s address your personal issues with me…

      1. You clearly are not reading my comments or my diaries. When you have done so, come back and tell me that I haven’t discussed ‘the need to save our nation and preserve our way of life”.

      2. Do you think of me as some sort of conjurer of “cheap political talk to save a party”? If you do, your charge about me “blindly pulling a lever” is inaccurate… no rather you’d be calling me a troll… or a moby, or a plant or something to that effect… But I don’t think you’ve got the guts to say that… which is a pity… I say speak Nay Nay, Yea, Yea. Speak your mind, tell me how you really feel about me… don’t come up with convoluted ways to suggest I don’t know what I believe or stand for…. HAHAHAHA! I defy your logic! I defy your ignorance! Look at any diary I’ve ever written… I address people when they address me. I don’t hide from their challenges, and I certainly am not intimidated by them when they prove to be candi-bots or little more than ignorant young adults spewing off regurgitated talking points that are completely unaware of history and lack the fortitude and wherewithal to look it up before commenting on it.

      Calling someone a “sheeple” tells me that you’re more interested in proving to others that you believe what you say rather than just declaring what you believe.

      P.S. I didn’t suggest a non-vote for Obama is a vote for Obama… What I actually said was:

      Suggesting that 3rd Party votes are ?for the good of the party ? to teach the ?elites? a lesson? in reality just get the other political philosophy in office. This path is not some loyalty driven sense of duty borne of hope. Rather, it is Political Extremism (and we?re not talking about being ?extreme in the defense of liberty? here, we?re talking extremely kooky basement-living-never-see-the-light-of-day-don?t-get-out-much kind of extremism)

      But in case they come a trollin? and don?t read the diary? let?s go ahead and say a non vote for the GOP nominee *is* a vote for political extremism ?
      I.e. Obama

      So the next time you want to go about attempting to marginalize my words…. look before you leap. The fact is… if you are not with Republicans in the general… then you’re against us NOW. The point I was making in the diary should be clear… fighting against the party, IS Political Extremism. I didn’t say you’d be responsible for voting for Obama… What I DID imply is that if you go 3rd party and show the world that YOU’RE A POLITICAL EXTREMIST… you’ll become WHAT YOU HATE… which from what I gather from all your writing… anything LEFT of you and your views….

      Which apparently includes Ford, HW, Bob Dole, and John McCain too….

      Well… what have you to say now?

      • texastaxpayer

        ” But in case they come a trollin? and don?t read the diary? let?s go ahead and say a non vote for the GOP nominee *is* a vote for political extremism ? I.e. Obama” You can spin this anyway you choose but at the end of the day there it is. You are saying plain as day “a non vote for the GOP nominee is a vote FOR Obama”. *are you going to now claim that I misinterpreted this rather transparent statement or that its even the first time you have made this claim?* If your going to attack someone at least be honest as I was. I do infact read the diaries and threads I post on.

        Next let’s look at your “courageous response” here. Since you “don’t hide from challenges” and aren’t “intimidated”… *he boasts proudly across the internet from his keyboard*

        Ford was never elected president and was literally shoved down our throats over Reagan at the convention in 1976 * sound familiar*. He was then soundly rejected by the voters.

        HW ran in 1988 as “Reagan’s third term” perhaps you remember. However in office he proved to be squish and broke his campaign promises. While it is convenient excuse and an oft repeated myth Perot cost him the presidency. The simple truth is Bush cost us that election with his performance in office, I was there I voted for the guy.

        As for your pitiful excuse for Dole and Mccain being senators I will point you to Obama and Kennedy. The difference in the four? Two were moderate squishies *read rino* and two were passionate partisans guess which two won? Get the point yet?

        As to the rest of this self aggrandizing fluff. Yes I do think your a “conjurer of cheap political talk” and no nothing you have said here defy ‘s that opinion or the logic that supports it. Your “if your not with the republicans in the general then your against us now” line. Demonstrates exactly the point I am making. Your not advocating a stance on issues or positions here its party plain and simple. Perhaps someone pointing out to you that your a fraud and hack is uncomfortable, I imagine it would be but it doesn’t change the facts. Where you should be advocating candidates who have a proven commitment to our platform as meriting our “loyalty” you advocate only a “with us or against us” line in the sand. Support the GOP or your an extremist. I dismiss this flawed logic and you…. I do not owe my vote or support to anyone regardless of the letter behind their name and I am not going to be “intimidated” into changing my mind. As far as third parties go. The point is simple. Quoting how many times they have lost doesn’t strengthen the case for blindly supporting a RINO in the general. As already demonstrated their record is no better. So your list is absolutely meaningless.

        And yes voting for the GOP candidate regardless of who they run, what they stand for or what their record contains is in fact “blindly pulling the lever”. Obviously your comfortable with that, I am not.

        Your duplicity marginalized your words you didn’t need any help from me. That’s what I have to say…….

        • http://www.thestandardcandle.com Justin Spagnolo

          Can’t find the text here because there is none

          • texastaxpayer

            I find it interesting that your first thought is what “others” think. Very telling…

          • http://www.thestandardcandle.com Justin Spagnolo

            Very telling indeed.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    You’re really attracting all the limp-wristed, unprincipled losers who are rooting for Barry to win again.

    • http://www.thestandardcandle.com Justin Spagnolo

      Just like Obama’s oratory skills, my words are like poop to flies.

      But at least you know where to apply the disinfectant as a site mod! :D

  • habeumnominee

    This is the year that we throw the bums out. Not 2016. Not 2014.

    Obama has had plenty of time to prove that he actually is the centrist he pretended to be in 2008.

    He has failed. Miserably.

    It’s time for some new blood in the White House.

    I don’t care if the next president is Christian, Jewish, Catholic, Buddhist, Mormon, or whatever as long as he has the same amount of common sense that God gave the average American.

    Obama must be evicted from the White House. He has proven his incompetence.

  • http://www.timothy-bladel.com/ center77

    I think I’d love to see a third party win, but I don’t see it happening. Having said that, each person has every right to hold there vote if they do not like dither candidate and their convinced that in the long run, Romney is another Bush. Independents do not feel like they are forced to vote for anyone, calling them stupid is not going to help them come around.

    • http://www.thestandardcandle.com Justin Spagnolo

      1. I didn’t endorse Romney in the diary.
      2. I didn’t say you shouldn’t vote your conscience
      3. I didn’t call voters “stupid”. I did call Candi-bots “imbecilic” in the title, but that’s because candi-bots are single minded beings that are incapable of appreciating opposing views, and most often they’ll employ any means necessary (including threatening to go 3rd party) to push people to their candidate.
      4. The title was to get their attention… it worked. They’re here spouting off their “legit” arguments as to why they “have the right” to “go 3rd party” in the event of a “Romney Nomination”. (Yet they don’t threaten in the even of a Newt or Santorum nomination… Why is that? because Romney is the front runner and that makes HIM the target)
      5. If you paid attention to what was written in the diary, I invited them to understand that 3rd Parties are usually Issue-Driven objections, and they never win… so if History is to repeat itself, so be it. However, I am trying to persuade them to understand that “sitting out”, “voting Other”, or “writing in” a candidate, is essentially going to result (if history proves anything) that the polar opposite political philosophy will win. (If that can’t be discerned by the social conservatives threatening to not participate in the event of a Romney Nomination, then by all means, I’m trying to make the case that it should be a no brainer)… I have always been an advocate of voting your conscience. If your conscience is eased because you allowed Obama another term in office, where his political philosophy leads to “rights” to contraceptives and bypassing religious freedoms, rather than vote for the guy that has shown SOME (whether it can be hailed as ‘accomplishment’ or not) fortitude in social issues by preventing certain forms of stem cell research to side on the pro-life philosophy… well then by all means… ease away that conscience.

  • Stricia

    no text

  • Change Jar Conservative

    n/t

    • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

      Same thing that happened in Germany in the 30s. All these self-absorbed blowhards refused to work together to defeat the Nazis, because they demanded political purity.

      • http://www.thestandardcandle.com Justin Spagnolo

  • tnguy

    Probably not. By the time any movement in that direction could gain legitimate traction and replace the republican party as the dominant home of the conservative movement, the country would be in ruins.

    But what we are doing is clearly not working. We must support Romney because of the SCOTUS!!!! I’m told. Then I read that many conservatives are concerned about Alito and Roberts. Remind me again why it would be so important Romney would win? Anyone who thinks he won’t appoint judges left of what Bush did is kidding theirself. I believe these are our darkest days since WWII, and the republican party’s tonic is more of the same.

    The facts are that conservatives are asleep, even now. In spite of our nation’s enormous problems, most of them don’t appreciate our peril and still have it pretty well, so things aren’t really that bad, right? To them, the election is looked at as little more than an ncaa tournament basketball game, and they’re hoping their team wins. They’re generally fat and happy, and willfully ignorant as to what is going on. On the heels of the tea party mid-term, the largest expansion of gov’t in our history, and following the election of the most left wing president in our history, we nominate a moderate who has represented big gov’t throughout his public life.

    And most people – even here – dismiss this, but the country is not far from financial ruin now. As Mark Steyn’s column this weekend noted, we have debts that are approximately 9 times our GDP. In other words, we’re in a hole we have little hope of crawling out of, and we’re about to enter an election where both sides represent bigger, more invasive, more expensive federal government. God have mercy on us.

    • acat

      for Ginsberg (79) and Scalia (76) and Kennedy (75) and Breyer (73)…

      If Obama wins a second term, Scalia and Kennedy would be 80 before they could retire and be replaced by a GOP POTUS.

      Mew

      • tnguy

        ….I know I often make no sense….

        If “conservatives” like Roberts and Alito can’t be counted on, SCOTUS appointments won’t matter one whit. You really think Romney is even going to consider looking for the next Antonin Scalia? I think his history strongly suggests he will not. If we can’t count on Romney’s appointments, we’re only marginally worse off with another Breyer.

        • acat

          Same logic applies to voting for Scott Brown, or voting against Barack Obama … yes, our guy may suck, but their guy will suck *worse*!

          Obama gets another term, look for more Sotomayors, more Kagans, etc.

          Romney gets in, we’re unlikely to get a Scalia or an Alito.. we’re likely to get a Kennedy or maybe a Souter.

          I have to ask you, though – isn’t trading a Ginsberg for a Souter better for us? Isn’t trading a Breyer for a Kennedy a step up?

          Mew

    • http://www.thestandardcandle.com Justin Spagnolo

      I’ve written diaries that tend to get very little attention about these things, it’s something that the layman can’t articulate well… (I know because I’m one of those layman).

      When you say this:

      “The facts are that conservatives [Republicans] are asleep, even now. In spite of our nation?s enormous problems, most of them don?t appreciate our peril and still have it pretty well, so things aren?t really that bad, right? To them, the election is looked at as little more than an ncaa tournament basketball game, and they?re hoping their team wins. They?re generally fat and happy, and willfully ignorant as to what is going on. On the heels of the tea party mid-term, the largest expansion of gov?t in our history, and following the election of the most left wing president in our history, we nominate a moderate who has represented big gov?t throughout his public life.”

      The one edit I made, would be it… I think Conservative are alert to this…

      I’m a social conservative. I think we’re facing some very perilous times in Social issues, in Fiscal issues, and in Foreign Policy.

      Which is why I wrote the diary… We have to, HAVE to ensure Obama is NOT re-elected. That is a “political philosophy” “where are we headed” nation issue.

      To be more specific… I’ve written before:

      Should Mitt Romney become the G.O.P. nominee, it will be the DUTY of EVERY FREEDOM LOVING, LIBERTY EMBRACING, CONSERVATIVE OF ANY STRIPE, to not only vote for Mitt Romney, but to DONATE, AND WORK WITH THE FURY OF FIRE FROM THE SKY to get him elected. Why? Because the alternative choice is President Obama for 4 more years.

      This country has LOST THE SENSES IT WAS BORN WITH! All it took was 3 years of a hell bent socialist-reformer? in the office of President of The United States to change the narrative of political battles of ?how do we make the country better? to ?how do we keep from driving off the cliff?. The arguments went from ?socialism vs. capitalism? to ?fairness vs. wealth?. Your everyday American can?t make the distinction, because your everyday American most likely isn?t wealthy? so naturally they?re going to assume that they side with ?fairness?.

      We really can’t know who Romney will appoint…If he appoints “Alito/Roberts style” justices… like he says… I can tell you they’ll be a damn fine better justice than Kagan and Sotomayor.

      But we just don’t know… what we do know Romney was HATED by Massachusetts democrats… you don’t get that kind of hate being a leftist… so although he may be left of conservatives, a Republican at best, a centrist/or slightly left of center at worst… We can still hope for better appointments than Kagan and Sotomayor…

      As for other economic issues… Personally I think you’re going to see Romney pivot his campaign around the issue of a balanced budget, and call for a Balanced Budget Amendment… he earned Sen. Mike Lee’s endorsement… so other than being a fellow Mormon (I am too and I don’t see that as a good enough reason for endorsing Romney in the primary), I don’t see Lee’s endorsement happening without a promise from Romney to pursue the BBA that Mike Lee is so passionate about…

      Either way… to answer your 3rd party question. I believe that the reason there is no serious 3rd party option, is because there is a wide swath of disagreement between social conservatives, fiscal conservatives, and foreign policy conservatives… as to what is most important. And even among social conservatives, there are factions that are extremist, while most are quite sensible… the point is most of the rules for creating a party, and getting on state-wide election ballots takes time and organization… the fact is, it’s likely cheaper, and faster to steer the Republican party to the right by gaining precinct seats (as the leftists did in the Democrat party over the last decade or so)… and push for more conservative agendas…

      Nobody wins though so long as the status quo remains. I agree… but at the same time… I really don’t want Obama and the democrats to continue to push things left from the Presidential bully pulpit. Which is why we have to focus on stopping Obama, rather than playing schadenfreude with the GOP elites and Romney (if he wins the nomination).

      I think Newt has a fighting chance… we need more conservatives to drop Santorum in my opinion and re-engineer a Newt wave… I think Santorum is showing more and more desperation, but that’s a personal opinion…

  • streetwise

    I will vote for Romney, I will vote for Gingrich, I will vote for Santorum if they win the GOP nomination. I would even vote for Ron Paul over Obama.

    And a vote for a third party is a vote for Obama.

    Period.

    • http://www.thestandardcandle.com Justin Spagnolo

      Gingrich, Romney, Santorum, Paul. A space turd. Bill Clinton’s 3rd term. etc.. ad infinitum… then Obama.

  • habeumnominee

    Obama can beat Santorum. The polls show it. Santorum can no longer control himself when he gets interviewed by reporters.

    He has an inconsistent record on abortion, fiscal issues, and labor unions.

    Romney has been fairly consistent compared to Santorum.

    I’m very excited about Romney finally closing on the nomination and moving on to the general election.

  • pikzehn

    Throwing this out there, hoping for some civil discussion:

    What about the long-term? There are a lot of doomsday prophets talking about Obama’s 2nd term. What about what happens when voters tell the Republican party that they can run moderate to liberal candidates and the conservatives will vote for them?

    Right now, I’m leaning towards wanting the Republican Party to lose until they change their strategy and return to conservative principles. I want the Republican Party to become conservative or irrelevant, allowing for the rise of a different second party.

    • http://www.thestandardcandle.com Justin Spagnolo

      You won’t ever get Republicans to change their mind by letting them fail. So why assume an embarrassing loss in November will do anything but embolden Democrats?

      What you can do is educate, innovate, and participate. Party platforms are built around consensus… so build consensus where you stand in your precinct inyour neighborhood as a conservative …. people fear being called conservative but they often more agree with us than they don’t … which is why you become a team player.. help the team win… the work on building consensus and push the team to the right.

      See Heritage Action, Freedom Works, American Majority, The Concord Project…. etc… hold a meeting with your local activists in your house… build trust build strength

      Its not easy but that is the long term

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