Redstate

Ironically, the only place Republicans did well yesterday was in a city with scarcely any Republicans at all.

But look on the bright side:  we get a shot at another open Senate seat held by a liberal Dem.  Anybody know when, precisely, Corzine steps down and appoints a successor?  If Alito comes up for a vote in mid-January the timing may be significant.

The stupidity amazes me.  Mark Warner and Tim Kaine concealed a huge surplus in order to force through the largest tax increase in state history, and all Kilgore did was hammer on illegal immigration and the death penalty.

And did the social conservatives even deliver in return for Kilgore's efforts in numbers sufficient to make up for the votes lost?  Nope.

Even Dick Morris rightly condemned the Kilgore campaign. I grant you, the incumbent governor is popular and is on his way to challenging Hillary, but Kilgore's campaign was brutal in its stupidity.

Republicans were given no reason to vote for Kilgore.

streiff's 'Money Well Spent' RedHot link is broken.

Here we had Corzine and Corzine-Light in Forrestor.  I couldn't persuade any conservatives to vote republican as it really didn't matter in their opinion.  If we had had a candidate who was a true conservative and running on issues and not platitudes and peronal attacks this was the perfect opportunity.

My town had no Republican mayoral candidate to vote for but a choice between a democrat and an democrat who lost the primary and ran on a third party line.  At least I don't live in CA.

Power peaked for the republicans in 2004 and now we see the decay/decline of the coalition(s) that make up the party.

The conservative movement is off track as the GW republicans have betrayed core conservative ideals  (e.g. fiscal responsibility, strong foreign policy, government transparency/ethics).

This is a warning bell for 2006 elections.

I'd say a significant chunk of social cons are Catholics, and raging pro-death-penalty ads and harsh attacks on "I'm against the death penalty because of my Catholic faith" Tim Kaine probably didn't win many of them over (more like sent them Kaine's way).

I don't recall illegal immigration being a true soc-con issue either...especially considering that many Latino soc-cons were probably turned off by the immigrant-bashing rhetoric.  Actually, I think the immigration rhetoric really backfired, especially in NoVa, where Kaine destroyed Kilgore.

I also think Kilgore came across very weak and wishy-washy on abortion, mumbling and bumbling around the topic in the debates (although I'm not sure it would have helped him much since Virginia still appears to be a pro-choice state, but anyway, explaining why he didn't get much traction on that with soc-cons).

On gay issues...well, they've been beat to a dead horse in Virginia. Nothing left there.

So what's the big surprise with social conservatives not giving Kilgore a victory?

I'd say the narrow and misguided focus on cultural issues was pretty dumb for the above reasons, and ineffective (if not downright hurting Kilgore) in its nastiness and because nobody really cared about that stuff in comparison to education, transportation, the economy, etc...  sloppy culture war attack ads can't always do it for you.

John Podhoretz says you shouldn't be surprised:

To sum up: Incumbent party victories in two states and one city. A Republican state rejected Democratic initiatives. A Democratic state rejected Republican initiatives.

Don't let the Democratic spin doctors fool you. Election Day 2005 has nothing to tell us about where the electorate is going in the wake of Bush's terrible year.

to the consequences of morally and ethically bankrupt leadership.

I seem to recall hearing that precise analysis after the 2001 elections - the year before the GOP won back the Senate and expanded their majority in the House.

But hey, you could be right.

Here's something to be cautious of however - as our side (hopefully) learned in VA and NJ this election cycle, you don't beat something with nothing.  While the GOP may very well be in some tough sledding at the moment, there's still little to nothing on the other side - which is frankly about all our side has going for us at the moment.

For those GOPers who are smarting after experiencing election losses due to a lack of inspiration and message from its candidates who ran on "the democrats are wrong," imagine if this continued on a national level for 6 years and then you may feel what I, as a democrat, have felt for the last six years.  

Maybe Bush will tire of being a human punching bag to the vicious cretins like Harry Reid, Howard Dean, and the mainstream media. Each time they've hit Bush with some outragous charge, Bush stays silent, and hides is head in the sand, like an ostrich or a frightened little puppy.

James Carville may be a disgusting vile serpent, but give the man credit for making no appologies for his beliefs.

How about a Republican administration that employs a hundred right wing James Carvilles to smash the libs over the head with the truth?  In other words, when will Republicans stop being frightenedlittle chickens and grow some testicles?

I could be wrong on this, but I believe that the governor will appoint someone to fill out the remainder of the Senate term.

Consider: Kilgore, the candidate who was personally weak on taxes, abortion, and the size of government, lost.

Bolling and McDonnell, the candidates who voted against tax increases in the legislature, were solid on life, and generally quite good on the size of government, won.

Inspiration alone can't sell crappy candidates.  Kilgore's accent wasn't the problem.  The problem was that his whole campaign was based on saying "I'm not great on taxes/life/Richmond, but this guy is worse than me!"

why did PA voters turn against Christ?  Throwing out ALL of the pro-Intelligent Design proponents on the Dover School Board? How can this be? Has the entire town succumbed to the seduction of Satan?  Don't these people know that the only way we're ever going to get this country back on track is to bring Christ back to the forefront of public life and education?  Don't they realize that the only way teach young children to respect life is to teach them that it is a special gift from God, and not some genetic accident?

We can have elections that swing this nation back and forth between right and left forever.  But nothing will truly change for the better until we reinstall Jesus Christ into every school house, court house, state house and the white house.  Last night's election was proof that we are losing the cultural war and that Satan is winning

Kilgore was a squish on all the issues social conservatives cared about.  That's why he couldn't talk about abortion.  He was also a squish on the tax increases, beholden to the pro-tax party leadership, which prevented him from talking about that... just a bad candidate all around.

after he's sworn-in.  Said successor will then run for a full term in November 2006 - essentially as an incumbent.

Unless Corzine and the now slightly larger Democrat majority legislature does something to royally botch an already royally botched state, the seat is almost certainly a lock to stay Democrat.

By an overwhelming margin, even the socially conservative ones, favor the death penalty. This is like saying that when folks mock Ted Kennedy for saying that he is in favor of legalized abortion because of his deeply held religious beliefs, Catholics are offended.

It's best not speak of that which you do not understand.

an excellent point and one that had been previouly made even before the election.  I regard NJ and Calif. as write offs,with NJ being historically dismal.  I would hope the ingenuity of man could be harnessed to assure that these states enjoy the full fruits of their electoral intelligence.  Perhaps a blockade around the borders allowing only the immigration of those who can prove beyond doubt that  they regard the income tax as the spawn of Satan.  A follow up would be mandatory abortion [take a page from King Herod if we must] and then establish these states as national dumping grounds for toxic materials, nuclear waste,and back copies of The New Republic,The Progressive, and The Nation.  Eventually we'll be able to establish national parks there to be used by the NRA as giant target ranges and hunting preserves .  One must be creative.

But still not as dumb as you are. Goodbye.

But otherwise troll elsewhere.

Yay thanks.

On my very short ride home the other night, WMAL (one of the local talk shows)was doing a segment about how negative the campaigns in VA were. The show typically has a conservative tilt. While the two callers I heard weren't enough of a sample for me to judge, they both claimed to be conservative Republicans who couldn't vote for Kilgore because of how bad/slimy his ads against his opponent were. However, the admittedly unscientific online poll indicated more than 80% (IIRC) of the respondants thought Kilgore had the most negative campaign. Other choices were b) Kaine, c) about the same, and d) a plague on both their houses.

Thanks for sending Cindy McKiddingUs back to the House, Georgia.  We were missing our near-daily doses of C-SPAN comic relief.

"Mobying for Dummies" book.

1.  I know Corzine makes the appointment.  I'm just wondering what the date is, i.e., whether a mid-January vote on Alito will be voted on by Corzine or his successor.
   
2.  The seat won't be a lock - Tom Kean jr. is apparently gearing up to run on the GOP side and thought to have a real chance.

I wouldn't confuse your feelings with the feelings of "an overwhelming majority" :

"America's Roman Catholic bishops and their flock of 65 million are in new accord on a hot-button social issue: opposition to the death penalty.

The U.S Conference of Catholic Bishops will roll out a banner statement for the national "Catholic Campaign to End the Use of the Death Penalty" at the semi-annual gathering of nearly 300 bishops beginning Monday in Washington, D.C.

New survey research shows Catholics are turning away from support for the death penalty, although not necessarily because the church says they should.

Catholic support for the death penalty fell to 48% from a peak of 68% in 2001, a Zogby poll in November 2004 found. Others have had similar findings."

Note the date on that article. Yesterday.

Go ahead and call them "not true Catholics" if you want, but you can't say they're not out there, and they certainly vote.

...for providing us all with a renewed example that there are wacky extremists on all sides of every issue.

for Corzine/Dems would be Richard Codey, the fairly popular outgoing governor, who'd be competitive with Tom Kean in the next race.

The dumb choice would be ethically challenged Congressman Menendez.

At least the gay marriage ban passed in Texas.  That should save the state from, well, something.

Kilgore lost because he failed to inspire any faction of the Republican party.  Y oucan't pin this on the SoCons any more than you an pin it on the FisCons.

For the fiscal conservatives he refused to sign the no new tax pledge, failed to significantly point out the lies of Warner/Kaine and the effete liberal Republicans in the Hosue of Delegates and the Senate and their tax hike and spending binges, failed to focus on the car tax.

For the social conservatives he seemed wishy washy on abortion, didn't seem to have a position on gay issues, and had an odd fetish with the death penalty in a state that is just not that focused on it (only 94 since 1976 as compared to 376 in Texas in that same time period).  I can't even recall when the last execution was.  Any idea?  I personally liked the ads the first few times, but after a week of seeing it every half hour, even I was getting pissed off.  I even contemplated taking my yard sign down at the end of the second week of the ads.  He should have saved that until last week and let that be his final negative shot.  He got bad advice.

Kilgore was an uninspiring candidate that listened to too many consultants and too many different people and never seemed to articulate a reason why people hould vote for him.  I did vote for him because I thought he was a good AG, would be a good governor, and am genetically predisposed to voting for the GOP.  And I am royally pissed about having to pay a car tax, hate the fact that they raised my taxes before cutting any spending, and I don't believe that Kaine is telling the truth about what he'll try to do.  I've not missed an election yet since I was 18 and don't plan on ever doing so.

But for those who aren't so politically inclined (and with only 44% turnout, there's obviously more of them than there are of us) they typically need a reason to vote for someone.  While the ads often focus on why you should not vote for the other guy, you've got to give people something to vote for as well.

Bush did that in 2004.  Kerry's message seemed to boil down to 'Don't vote for him, he's eeeevil.'

Warner did that in 2001.  He ran on a positive agenda, promised not to raise taxes (oops, his fingers were crossed obviously) and seemed like a decent moderate Dem.

Kaine ran on the 'A vote for me is a vote for 4 more years of Warner.  I'll be just like him.  Wait, stop looking at my record, I'm not a liberal.  I'm just like Warner.  Just like Warner.  Warner.  Warner.  Warner.  Warner.'

See here for a Gallup poll on the death penalty in America.

While it seems that Catholics that frequently attend church are less likely to support capital punishment than those who seldom attend service, it's still a 59% majority in favor.  (The overall average across America is something in the mid-70's.)

The most interesting thing from the survey, in my mind, is that those with no religious preference are less likely than Catholics or Protestants to support the death penalty.

If you're considering Catholics worldwide, you might be correct-- but I don't think the relevance here is strictly American.

I've never been one to criticize after the fact but I have noticed several areas were the dems in Va outsmarted us.

First, they labeled a large tax increase budget reform. This so-called reform was totally unnecessary because the state ended up with a budget surplus. This budget fiasco on the part of the VAGOP enabled Mark Warner to be seen as fiscially conservative.

Second, Jerry Kilgore is a likable person but he gave the citizens of Virginia no reason why they should vote for him. Kilgore was good at criticizing Kaine but bad on self-advertisement.

Third, The VAGOP essentially beat themselves beginning with bitter hard fought primaries in June. Voters were turned off with all the negative advertising. The Virginia Republican Party as a whole needs to find common ground with its different sectors in order to unite. Hopefully George Allen will assist with this over the next year.  Mark Warner and Tim Kaine did not agree with each other on many issues over the last four years but they still appeared united for their broader goals.  

I do think the relevance, etc...

And sorry, unless Kean Jr. is going to be able to heal the dysfunctional NJ GOP in the next 6-8 months you're looking at a near certain replay of last night 52-weeks from now.

Show me one area, other than the possession of a well-known last name, where Kean is a better candidate than Forrester.  You would think, given the campaign Dougie just run, that would not be hard to do - but I bet it is.

Corzine could make this interesting with a poor choice of successor (sunshine is spot-on, below), but as long as he doesn't bugger the canine on that you're looking at capping-out at 46% - not gonna get it done in a 2-way race.

From the very next line in the article you cite:

An analysis of Catholic attitudes every six years by a group of sociologists and released this fall found that 57% of Catholics in the USA now support the death penalty, down from 72% in 1999.

57%, even if more accurate than the Zogby poll, is hardly an "overwhelming majority."   That still leaves 43% opposed, and certainly many of them vote.

"Catholics that frequently attend church are less likely to support capital punishment than those who seldom attend service"

-wouldn't those (in general) tend to also be the more socially conservative Catholics (anti-abortion, etc.) ? Which goes back to my point that socially conservative Catholics aren't necessarily pro-death-penalty, and slash-and-burn ads against DP opponents just might turn them off.

Corzine and the state Democratic Party need to be smart here.  I realize that Menendez is a powerful Democrat in this state but he has a LOT of baggage.  Cody is VERY popular in this state and would be a virtual lock to keep the Senate seat.  

Let Menendez take Lautenberg's seat when it opens up.

he isnt interested at all. Every single Congressman in Jersey wants the appt, esp Menendez.  

If Corzine was smart, he'd pick a caretaker, someon old (like Lautenberg, oops done already) and let them duke it out in a primary even steven. Otherwise, he'll have one happy guy and a lot of unhappys.

Fewer than 6 in 10 practicing Catholics (59%) support the death penalty.

Well, I guess you might worry the half of the forty percent who oppose the death penalty who'd take it personally, but I rather suspect they're more offended about abortion than about the death penalty, ceteris paribus.

I'm a Catholic with qualms about the death penalty. Most of the practicing Catholics who oppose the death penalty tend to put the slaughter of the unborn (a million or so a year) ahead of the death of under a thousand convicted murderers a year.

Socially conservative Catholics, assuing that you are equating soc-con with frequent mass attendance, are necessarily pro-death penalty.  They're pro-death penalty to a lesser degree-- but still clearly in favor of it.  That's the point of that Gallup poll I linked last time.

Kilgore's Hitler ad did probably turn alot of people off, just because it was in poor taste-- even for a slimy attack ad.

but does that detract from sunshine's point that attack ads regarding Kaine's opposition to the DP aren't going to sit well with many, if not most, Catholics?

Even if someone is Catholic and support the death penalty I would be surprised if they viewed anti-DP people harshly.

when RINO's run. No one would confuse Forrester with a Conservative, and I'm not sure Kilgore did enough to convince voters he was all that conservative as well.

Moderates can and do win, but they've got to give conservatives (particularly social conservatives) some reason to support them.

Forrester just looked bad to me. This is apart from any substantive question whatsoever. In their few joint televised experiences, Forrester struck me as a guy I wouldn't buy a used car from. And I firmly believe that a lot of voters base their decisions on exactly that kind of feeling. Corzine is obviously a snake-in-the-grass but if you were a non-political-junkie looking for a reason to vote for Forrester instead of against Corzine, then Forrester didn't give you one.

NJ SoCons are a small minority.  NJ soccer moms are worried about security and crime not about gay marriage and abortion.

the truth about how many Catholics support the death penalty I think the original point is still valid: it is hardly going to play well with Catholics to hear one of their own bashed in harsh attack ads for espousing a position on a controversial issue out of religious conviction, especially when that conviction is follows the teaching of the Church.

Hmmm.

As a resident of NJ and a conservative I didn't bother voting yesterday.  Why should I vote for Forrester?  At best he is a conservative of convenience.  When the election run started he didn't have a single conservative position.  When the election drew close and he was still behind, then he started adopting conservative positions.  Am I supposed to be thrilled by this?

Past experience has shown that the Republican party doesn't care about conservative views, only their money.  During elections it's the endless chorus of "give give give".  At any other time it's the endless refrain of "STFU and sit at the back of the bus".

Frankly the Republican party is totally stuck on moderates with nothing but lip service to conservatives.  So what the heck, let the moderates carry the water from now on.  If the Republican party wants my money and my votes, they can work to make me happy.

Until then, they can go STFU.

Oh Kilgore planned to talk about taxes, but poll after poll showed a solid majority of Virginians supported the tax increase.  A year ago we all thought taxes would be Jerry's main plank, cause that's all he could talk about, but he shut up pretty quickly on that.  He can read a poll as well as anyone.  Taxes were supposed to be the first part of the Kilgore plank Bush's popularity the other.  With the tax increases polling high 50s in support here and Bush mid 30s you can see why Kilgore ran the campaign he did.

The Republicans don't need enemies...

I'm not familiar with the tax increase. Why are people in VA in favor of the taxes?

Corzine managed to look like a nice guy who happened to make a ton of money on Wall Street.

Corzine's ads painted Forrester as greedy insurance salesman.

Forrester's attack ad featuring a dig from Corzine's ex-wife alomost certainly backfired. There are a lot of divorced people who wouldn't want their careers to collapse based on angry words from a scorned former spouse.

The nearest thing to an issue was reducing property taxes. How is Corzine going to do that?

Unless he wants to be president someday, Corzine may wish he had stayed in the Senate.

A moby pretending another moby is not a moby. Now what if a third moby moby'ed him?

Head spinning...

Hate it when I miis a typo.

Bill Bradley may also be in consideration for the interim Senate appointment.

Suddenly I feel like taking a nap.

...I agree. The Bush team has turned the other cheek too often. For example they should have taken on that sleaze Wilson publicly. They really need to be more aggressive with the opposition and not depend on Talk Radio and a few blogs (this one is infected with libs) to counter the MSM and the wild-eyed elected dems.

There also does not seem to be a GOP "strategy" for electoral politics. Leading the dems used to be like herding chickens now the GOP seems to be fowling things up.

I do think there are a few issues that the GOP needs to embrace that would make it very tough for dems in all but the bluest of blue states.  They require courage.

Sorry, he resigned last year.

the Republicans definitely do not need enemies.

I think he did oppose homosexuals adopting or fostering children, and he opposed any marriage or 'marriage lite' for homosexuals. He was to the right of Kaine, that's for sure. He was more blatant about his position on gays than his position on guns or life. Maybe he listened to all that press last year which said social conservatives no longer cared about abortion and only cared about homosexual marriage. I thought that was absurd and insulting and the results last night showed how important life of the unborn contiues to be for conservatives.

of how the 06 miderms will be.  I would be more concerned if we had a bunch of Republican congressmen losing their seats this time around.  Governorships really don't have all that much to do with reforming how things are done in Washington, D.C.

Yes; and

Many things surprise you, it seems.

Balance of nature-- after all, Georgia did send Newt Gingrich to the House for years and years.  :-)

On an entirely different subject: does anyone know of a conservative-oriented wikipedia out there at all?  I'd really love to find a place where we all can lay out the truth on issues like the Iraq War and global warming, and have all the research linked to from there, so we can all have a one-stop shop to use to refute the latest liberal bogosity.

GOP "fowling things up". This is the problem of being in the majority. Too many different interests and too many people only interested in their own power base.

All conversations always turn to...

God.Religion.God.Religion.God.Religion.God.

Kilgore didn't play the 'fire & brimstone' holy-roller card and that's why his campaign couldn't get traction with the fervent red base in VA.

Howard Dean said it best a few years back when he insinuated that the GOP can only win elections with God, Gays & Guns...

Kilgore couldn't talk about GUNS(aka the war in Irag)[I know it's stretch, but work with me, they are close enough]. As said before GAYS are a dead issue here in dixie. GOD was his fall back and he didn't throw himself on the pulpit.

It takes more than a southern accent and a few hours with GWB to get Virginia Voters to the polls. Especially up against a formidable opponent such as Kaine.

This is my first post. Please don't kill me simply because I belong to the other party. I've lurked here for some time...

I think the real message is one that my party still hasn't learned from 1994. You cannot govern from only the right (or the left), rely solely on your base and demonize the other side. That can only be done when you have a vast majority which neither party can claim right now.

Fundamentally, America is sick and tired of bitter partison rivalries.

To win and govern effectively:

1. Have the best interests of the entire country
   
   
2. Don't want to be in power just to push their respective agenda

Cheers.

PS, I am very partison and don't think that our side has a lock next year.

So your wife thinks that people are bad if they oppose the death penalty?

Your imprecision with the language does you a disservice.

I'm inclined to think ill of a lot of its opponents, while we're at it, although not for their opposition, per se.

Florio or McGreevey was better?

Face it, she was the best viable option.  Hate to bring reality to intrude upon your "woulda, coulda, shoulda" status, but that's where things were in 1993 and 1997.

about.  Never mind save Texas from something, let's give the Medal of Freedom to the whole state.

from starting your own.  Or better yet, jump into wikipedia itself - whenever you find a non-neutral POV, complain and author.  There are at least a few sections that have ended up with an agreed-upon NPOV text with partisan apendixes.

IMHO, the world doesn't need a "conservative wikipedia," but rather a "neutral wikipedia."

Governor Clinton

Governor Bush

Governor Bush

Governor Reagan

Governor Carter

I'm young so I'm probably forgeting a few other Governors, but I know these gentlemen had a tremendous amount to do with the changes in Washington.

And why on earth would you be proud of turing down Obamas request to speak at your organization...? I'm sure you'll never let us know what organization you represent, but I'm doubtful that he needed the publicity as much as your group did...

I'd say a significant chunk of social cons are Catholics, and raging pro-death-penalty ads and harsh attacks on "I'm against the death penalty because of my Catholic faith" Tim Kaine probably didn't win many of them over (more like sent them Kaine's way).

Sunshine said that many Catholics would be turned off by attacks at Kaine's anti-DP stance.  You guys tried to say he/she was wrong.  The point still seems pretty sound.  You would never vote for Kaine but wouldn't you be turned off by Kilgore attacking Kaine's anti-DP views, which are based on his religous convictions?

I can certainly understand why you don't like many, if not most, people who oppose the DP.

Please take this nonsense somewhere else.

I'm not ready to deal with people who don't believe in evolution and dinosaurs and think it's OK that Chic-filet is closed on Sunday.

I'm still trying to grasp how the part pro-life faction of our party refuses to see how condoms reduce abortions.

I'm glad they threw the bums out. Only the strong survive. And they and their platform are weak, weak, weak.

who voted for Bush in the last two elections, I find your accusations of moby-ing to be symptomatic of the in-fighting that is really hampering our goals right now.  ;)

Gilmore wrecked the state's finances with his no car tax gimmick.  "Repealing" the car tax was actually a huge pay out to counties to repeal their local car taxes, rather than a cut state taxes.  Actually more of a weird sort of welfare program than a tax cut.  Gilmore lied about how much it would cost and then papered over the holes with tricky accounting.  It's a huge problem with the one term thing.  Governors are not encouraged to plan ahead more than two or three years because they know that whatever ticking time bombs they leave are somebody elses problem.  In Gilmore's case he misjudged the timer, so to speak, though.  We had hiring freezes at state universities, teacher's salaries plummeted, and transportation got cut left and right.  Even then the full extent of the problem wasn't apparent.  Gilmore used some more accounting magic to hide the real size of the hole in our budget.  Warner inherited this mess and raised taxes by putting it in terms of supporting basic state services and shoring up education (bascially the same argument Riley made in Alabama).  No outside observer can realize the mess Gilmore made.  DMV offices open only three days a week at odd hours, professors leaving universities en masse for better paid positions all while tuition went up, hiring freezes meaning that just about every state agency couldn't do the hiring and firing it needed.  Even the state GOP realized we needed tax increases.  The GOP controlled Senate actually proposed larger increases than Warner and the tax increases were passed in House where the Republicans had a nearly 2/3 majority.  

Listen VA is conservative, no doubting that, but we're no Alabama.  Business comes first here, but we realize that you need enough revenue to have good roads, good schools, and other basic services, or businesses aren't going to come and the ones here aren't going to stay.  When the business community says one thing (and almost all the business leaders wanted the increase) and an idealogue like Grover Norquist another, well we don't listen to Grover.

Could someone point me at a good write-up of the objective problems with the Ohio Voting Initiatives?  Don't give me any BS about "sour grapes" arguments - too easy to dismiss.  Look at it this way, if the shoe were on the other foot, why would we still be pleased to see these initiatives fail?  I've seen a few diaries that address various parts, but it would be great to have something a little more comprehensive.

Disclaimer: I'm not from Ohio, but I've got a relative on the other side that I'd sure is going to bring it up.

Sunshine said that many Catholics would be turned off by attacks at Kaine's anti-DP stance.  You guys tried to say he/she was wrong.  The point still seems pretty sound.  You would never vote for Kaine but wouldn't you be turned off by Kilgore attacking Kaine's anti-DP views, which are based on his religous convictions?

No. Because a Kaine who is "religiously opposed" to the death penalty, where opposition to or support for the death penalty, as a matter of explicit Church teaching for two thousand years, is undertaking an act of informed conscience. His religious beliefs have, I suspect, nothing to do with this. I'm bolstered in this conclusion by the fact that his pro-infanticide stance is not in any way shaken by the two thousand year old, unchanging, infallible, written in stone, not negotiable or debatable, mandatory teaching on abortion.

In other words, only Catholics suffering from some form of severe mental retardation would think that attacks on Kaine's "religiously inspired" opposition to the death penalty is that; rather, they'd suspect, it appears rightly, that his Catholicism is a shield for beliefs popular in his political party but unpopular to the world at large; and that his Catholicism is apparently easily shed for those issues near and dear to the Democrat Party.

Note that, as John Podhoretz mentioned in the NYPost, this election really was nothing more than status quo.  In VA in 2001, Warner got 52% to his opponents 47%.  This year, Kaine got 52% to Kilgore's 46%.  In NJ, in 2001 McGreevey got 55% to his opponents 41%, and this year Corzine got 52% to Forrester's 44%.

The kiddos over at Kos are crowing that the conventional wisdom is this election was a referendum on GWB and the Republican party and shows that the Republicans are weak heading into next year.  My CW is that since Kaine pretty much ran as Kaine-Warner, and Corzine (with his big-time name recognition and all) garnered fewer votes this time around than McGreevey in '01, the Republican party is probably going to be just fine as long as decent, qualified and electable candidates are fielded.  And, I'd disagree with you that a weak Democratic party is about all we have going right now.  For the last five years the Republicans have been hammered in the media, especially the president, and yet we still keep winning elections.  Me, I believe it's due to our country drifting ever so slowly rightward over the past 25 years, not just the incompetence of the Democrats.

Democrats held serve on the governorships.  The net Republican statehouse advantage remains unchanged.  If the Dems' spinning that as the tide has turned maxes the bliss at their MeetUps, well, bless their little bleeding hearts.

Cali voters in their foolishness retained the status quo that is bankrupting their state treasury and corrupting their electoral process.  Buckeye votes in their wisdom saw through the Soros/PFAW/MoveOn Trojan Horse and reaffirmed the decision they made in '04.  Ohio's Electoral votes are arguably more important than California's (Bush won twice without California), so I'd say the Republicans held serve on the initiatives.

No clear winner nationally, unless the Democrats continue to mis-interpret the results to their favor (ala Paul Hackett and "We Won even though We Lost") in the run-up to '06.  My bet is that they will.

In the meantime we got to enjoy watching Soros p*ss away some more of his millions on Ohio Initiatives 2-5, where the results weren't even close.

Make George Spend It All,

furious

Sadly, these kinds of lessons are necessary for our political representatives in Washington and elsewhere.

GOP politicians need to learn that we, the voters who care the most and have the largest impact come election time, demand a certain level of fidelity to core conservative principles.

This big-tent GOP establishmentarian mindset needs to end.

I am tired of worrying about the ditherings of moderates...

The only real Republican who had a shot of winning was in the 43rd councilmanic district. To be honest, I think Bloomberg actually depressed the vote that Russo should have received.

Here are a few better ideas:

http://discoverthenetworks.com/

http://activistcash.com/

http://chronwatch.com/

http://townhall.com/

http://www.campus-watch.org/

http://www.erinoconnor.org/

http://memri.org/

http://forum.protestwarrior.com/viewtopic.php?t=67614&sid=31784ae29c0a1
7f7acd34d0dfff124dd

http://johntaylorgatto.com/

http://onthefencefilms.com/

http://www.junkscience.com/define.htm

http://cottagecoalition.org/index.htm

http://www.anwr.com/

http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/bcaplan/museum/musframe.htm

http://www.city-journal.org/index.html

http://volokh.com/

http://ksghome.harvard.edu/~GBorjas/publications_for_download.html

I'm sure that you're right in your suspicion that the reasoning behind his anti-dp stance is not primarily religious.  Talk about an inconsistent story.

Do you think that the nature of the Kilgore ads critical of Kaine's death penalty position could have been distasteful to some sizable proportion of Catholic voters, though?  It seems to me that pro-dp Catholics might be less...intense(?) about the death penalty than other pro-dp people and that they'd be likely to know, worship with, and respect a fair number of people who oppose the death penalty, too.  But I could be wrong.  Did you see "Stanley"?  What did you think about it?

Seemed like crummy choices all around, though.

Do you think that the nature of the Kilgore ads critical of Kaine's death penalty position could have been distasteful to some sizable proportion of Catholic voters, though?

Quite possibly, but not as Catholic voters. Whatever portion of Catholic voters would be opposed to the death penalty for whatever reason would surely have some representatives who fervently oppose the death penalty, and a minority might even do so out of deference to the Church's instruction as an act of conscience. I suspect, however, that Catholics irritated by those ads weren't offended because the ads were going after Kaine's religious beliefs, but because they share his opposition to the death penalty (almost surely for secular reasons), and so felt their position was being attacked.

It seems to me that pro-dp Catholics might be less...intense(?) about the death penalty than other pro-dp people and that they'd be likely to know, worship with, and respect a fair number of people who oppose the death penalty, too.

On the last, in some states, perhaps, but not in, say, Virginia or Texas. If you're at Mass, especially in NoVa, on a regular basis, you're much more likely to be socially conservative across the board.

On the issue of pro-DP Catholics: Again, and remembering that I know that data is not the plural of anecdote, my beloved bride is of the opinion that torture isn't unconstitutional ("cruel and unusual, dammit," and I quote), and isn't wholly opposed to it as a punishment for child molestation/murder. The death penalty gives her not an itch in the world. While I have some qualms about it, the qualms haven't reached the point of opposition or even serious reservation yet. Catholics tend to mirror the population at large, for good and for ill; thus, Catholics from Texas tend to be rather fervently in favor of the death penalty, while Catholics from Taxachussetts tend to oppose it. (Similarly, the abortion numbers shadow the general populace that way too.)

Did you see "Stanley"?  What did you think about it?

I have to confess that I have no idea what you're talking about. I figured the Virginia GOP was trying out suicide this year, so I decided to skip getting my blood pressure up. Link?

Seemed like crummy choices all around, though.

Pretty much. I owe you an email by the way. My bad.

Yes, you have a point that governors tend to ascend to POTUS more often than those in the house and senate, at least as of late.

But as for the day-to-day running of the country as a whole, state governors, and therefore this election have and had very little impact.

Our organization was around for 80 years before Obama got elected Senator and will be around for 80 years after he's been relegated to the dustbin of history.  Sadly, Obama has voted in lockstep with Durbin and any hope of him representing the mainstream is dim.

Thanks for taking the time to break this down--it makes sense to me mostly, though I didn't think it would be only a minority of Catholics that would be against the death penalty out of deference to the Church's instruction.  (I'm assuming you didn't mean 49%.)  I do understand about the difference between the non-negotiables and the matters of conscience, but still, that's surprising to me.

Here's a link to the Stanley ad.  It made me queasy for two different reasons; quite a feat, that.

As to the last, it's okay--given the amount of things I'm not making it to on a daily basis recently, I won't throw a single stone.

but she was no great shakes herself. With all the hype she got, and all the potential she had, what an utter waste of time and money her time as governor turned out to be.

Didn't she also end up passing a tax increase, similar to Florio and McGreevey??

Hmmm.

Well then.  You're welcome.

So you don't buy his beliefs but you DO believe when a Republican Catholic says he is Pro-life because of his beliefs and yet is also pro-DP.  OK.  

I have a feeling that you were not the target group that sunshine was referring considering the fact that the next Democrat politician you like will be the FIRST Democrat politician you like.  

You know it is entirely possible to be anti-abortion but feel that the law is not the place to try to prevent abortions.

For those people who are Catholic and also actually undecided about who to vote for Kilgore's attack ads on Kaine DP position may have seemed offensive.

So you don't buy his beliefs but you DO believe when a Republican Catholic says he is Pro-life because of his beliefs and yet is also pro-DP.  OK.  

Someone really should macro a reply to this tired argument.

1. Being against abortion, which kills an innocent life, is not incompatible with not being against the death penalty, which is meted out against criminals that have committed and been convicted of a heinous crime.  Similarly, there is no contradiction between being in favor of letting innocent people walk the street while being in favor of locking up convicted criminals in prison.
   
2. Catholic doctrine dictates that you be against abortion; it does not dictate that you be either for or against the death penalty.
   
3. You can be in favor of abortion and still call yourself a Catholic.  Similarly, you can deny that God exists, claim the Pope is transvestite alien from Pluto, and insist that oreos and milk are the true body and blood of Christ and still call yourself a Catholic.  However, in neither case are you adhering to Catholic doctrine, and it is unlikely that anyone will look to you for religious guidance.

I'm sure Thomas appreciates your lectures on Catholicism, though.

Where am I lecturing on Catholocism?  Please enlighten me.  Seems I was discussing POLITICS.  And where did make a SINGLE point pertaining to religous guidance?

I have absolutely NO INTEREST in discussing the merits and demerits of abortion or the death penalty.  As I said a person can be AGAINST abortion but against legislating against abortion.  

I was talking SPECIFICALLY about Kaine and his views.  Thomas does not accept Kaine's purported reasons for his positions.  That's his right.  But it is based on his own biases and not on objective truth.  SOME people may not have those biases and they have been turned off by Kilgore's attacks on Kaine's DP position.  I really don't understand why this is so hard to understand.  Do you believe that all "true" Catholics have the same politics as you, or Thomas?

A wikipedia is a very different critter than a blog.  Pointing out fourteen bazillion blog-type entries when I'm asking about wikis is like having ten thousand spoons when you need a knife (yes, I stole that phrase from Alanis).

Think of it this way: blog : wiki :: newspaper : encyclopedia.  Imagine trying to get an overview of the entire Iraq War solely from reading newspapers.  Wouldn't work terribly well.

Do you believe that all "true" Catholics have the same politics as you, or Thomas?

Ctrl-C.  Ctrl-V.  Voila:

Someone really should macro a reply to this tired argument.

1. Being against abortion, which kills an innocent life, is not incompatible with not being against the death penalty, which is meted out against criminals that have committed and been convicted of a heinous crime.  Similarly, there is no contradiction between being in favor of letting innocent people walk the street while being in favor of locking up convicted criminals in prison.
   
2. Catholic doctrine dictates that you be against abortion; it does not dictate that you be either for or against the death penalty.
   
3. You can be in favor of abortion and still call yourself a Catholic.  Similarly, you can deny that God exists, claim the Pope is transvestite alien from Pluto, and insist that oreos and milk are the true body and blood of Christ and still call yourself a Catholic.  However, in neither case are you adhering to Catholic doctrine, and it is unlikely that anyone will look to you for religious guidance.

with Chick-Fila or any other business closing on Sunday?

Catholic doctrine does NOT equal political beliefs.

Teachers salaries plummeted?  Transportation got cut left and right?  Uh... No and no.  There were NO major transportation cuts in Virginia thanks to the car tax cut.  And teachers and professors salaries in Virginia have increased or stayed the same every year for the past decade - a slower rate of growth does not equal a cut, my friend.

Try explaining to us honestly how a MASSIVE SURPLUS, one that Warner and his tax-raising pals didn't talk about until after they passed the hike, mandates an increase.  And if Virginia is so pro-tax hike, why didn't they vote in the less massive tax hike that Warner and his pals supported in NOVA the previous year?

Except you can't.

I'm familiar with your postings on other sites.  Watch yourself here.