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are the one people on the planet that have always impressed me at every turn of adversity. They are extraordinary, and they will continue to be so.

May God be with them today, and America will stand with them as they have so long stood with us.

Could someone maybe axe my diary.  Much appreciated.
-bro

God be with the victims and their families (and bring about the conversion of the attackers).

But I've got to differ with you in the assessment of the Brits.  They have systematically disarmed their populace, stripped people of their right to life (although at least their abortion laws are better than ours), and trampled over their own history and traditions.  In addition, Americans are viewed more favorably in India than they are in England and the average Brit is against the war in Iraq.

I hope there are enough stout Bulldogs around yet to rally the people against becoming another Spain, but I fear that -- especially with all the G8 protestors loonies about -- the public uproar will be against Bush.

When will Europe (and our own multiculturalists and socialists) wake up?  Will this finally be the wake up call that we in the USA, Canada, and Europe need to 1) start expelling the Muslims -- all of them -- from our beloved Western Europe, Canada, and USA; 2) resolve to kick their butts until this war is ended with unconditional surrender on their side; 3) quit indulging in multiculturalist fantasies that Islam is a religion of peace; and 4) start to have large Christian families to counteract the Muslim birthrates?

You know, in our Western history, there was a time when Pope Urban called for a defensive war against Islam's rapacious blood cult.  That defensive action was the First Crusade, and maybe it's time for a new Pope, Benedict XVI, to call another one.  Christian Europe may be sickly and on the verge of demographic and spiritual suicide, but I pray that we and they can muster the internal fortitude to win this war and revitalize Christianity.  The Pope is our only hope in this matter.  Let's pray for him!

When the IRA bombed some ceremonial guard unit on parade it really motivated the folks to attack Irish terrorism instead of letting the two sides blow each other up.

Maybe this will wake up the EU, or at least the NW fringe of it, to the menace.

I hope you're kidding. I wouldn't want Christians to be judged based on the actions of those who kill abortion doctors, and I think Muslims should be granted the same respect.

The British have been one of our staunchest allies in the war on terror. They sympathized with the 9/11 victims, and contributed to the war effort in Iraq. In what way do you consider them not aware of the threat of Islamic terrorism?

"Perhaps the villains' expectation is that the Briton will quail as the Spaniard, reacting to massacre with headlong flight from foreign fields. I think not. About me, I see older Scots with a steely flint in their eyes. The reckoning will come. There is a soul of honor beneath the ribs of death"

I know you didn't mean to be utterly patronising here.  Yet, you still managed it.  Capital.

However, you're right.  I doubt that these attacks will affect the British plan for Iraq one jot.

What a terrible shame.  It really feels like the only adequate response.

Why not try -- just for a second -- to get off your ridiculous, parochial high horse and think that perhaps people in Europe might not want some obese half-wit in slip on shoes and a cowboy hat telling them how to run their own countries, especially one who is doing his level best to demonstrate a complete lack of knowledge about European society.  Including what I thought was the most obvious fact: it's not America.  We're not like you.

For a start, how, pray, would one go about "revitalising" Christianity in the UK, a country with a monarch linking the government to the national church?  Should we start passing crazy religious laws over here to appease American fundamentalism, just as we have sacrificed the lives of our soldiers in Iraq because of your president's ill-conceived wet-dream?  Nobody cares about your silly religious debates in England.  Our church is devoted entirely to tea, and heaven help those who try and take that away from us!

And, frankly, you can take my kebabs and felafels from my cold, dead fingers, you ridiculous, pompous windbag.

And as a great Briton once said, a "deeply dumb" one.  While it is difficult for the cosmopolitan generation, reared on alternating doses of irony and apathy, to grasp, praise <i>can</i> be sincere.  Furthermore, you need not squirm at the attribution of noble qualities to your countrymen: I am happy to exclude you.

"For a start, how, pray, would one go about 'revitalising' Christianity in the UK...."

Always a mystery to those who care nothing for the prospect.

But can you not see that now, of all times, "praising" us by having a snide dig at Zapatero's response to Madrid is at best a backhanded compliment, at worst a genuine insult to those who happen to quite like all of Europe and who don't see the need to bitch about what other European countries do when we're all being blown up.

It's the same bombs and the same blood.  The Spaniards did their thing, and we shall do ours, and the vast majority of people over here, it must be said, cared very little for the sniping that came from the States about Zapatero.  Perhaps if you stayed longer, and perhaps drank more tea, you would learn that the British strength is not in our steely eyed resolve, but in our capacity to simply get on with it and pay no heed to the shouting.  You bomb the Americans and they start a war.  You bomb the English and we have a cup of tea, and perhaps a digestive biscuit, and then we'll help people out.  It's rude to use us to pour scorn on the Spaniards.

Well, perhaps one could go about importing a mad version from the United States, where preachers gather on television to denounce the evils of society.  But I scarcely see how this could be an improvement on our current situation, where we instead ask a couple of very nice old men with big beards what their opinions are and then pass laws with their help.  There's scarcely any shouting, and we rarely have to deal with a bald man in slip on shoes with tassels on them denouncing "spongebob squarepants" for being a dirty homosexual.

I'm rather at a loss as to what you think we could be missing?  Admittedly we're no longer slaughtering Catholics -- is that the problem?  Do we need more shouting, or more Christians denouncing every sin from a cathode pulpit?

I'm afraid you'll find that's really not the way we like to do things over here.

....at worst a genuine insult to those who happen to quite like all of Europe....

If you "quite like" the Spanish reaction to the Madrid bombings, then by all means take it as a genuine insult.

It's the same bombs and the same blood.

You're all one big happy now, eh? This is charming as sentiment: meaningless in practical terms.

You bomb the English and we have a cup of tea, and perhaps a digestive biscuit, and then we'll help people out.

How silly. Just as after the Blitz, yes? Just as at Goose Green? No doubt this appeals to the ego on some level, but it is quite useless as history. I do, though, urge you to head for Tavistock tomorrow and proclaim your desire to "help out" the Islamists.

It's rude to use us to pour scorn on the Spaniards.

In fact, I used the Spaniards to pour praise on you. That you see no objective standard by which such actions as theirs (and, presumably, yours to come) may be differentiated and valued is your failing, not mine.

Ian Paisley.  Thanks for playing!

in all this.

But what is your objection to a lack of hair and choice of shoes?

Who?

I mean, I know who he is, but where is he now?  Is he still alive?

Goodness.  Well, I suppose we do have one loudmouthed shouting person who doesn't get in the news very much.  However will I get this egg off my face.  Mercy.

Those slip on leather shoes with the tassels on them are the naff uniform of the scary, sweating preacher.  I don't seek to comprehend it, I've merely been an unwilling observer to the phenomenon, which still baffles modern science.

I guess I'm not surprised you don't know.  Or feign it, anyway.

The Spanish reaction to bombings in Spain is of no concern to me.  I see merit in pissing into the wind, as we are doing, in the hopes of salvaging something from Iraq now that we're there, but I also see merit in cutting one's losses and getting out.  We're always in favour of a glorious defeat, however, over here, which is probably why we're hanging about over there. Stand firm in the mire.

Incidentally, the fact that you truly cannot see the practical advantages of serving tea in a crisis is probably why other nations are often so keen to rush off and blow things up.  If you are ever so unfortunate as to be involved in a crash or accident, I can only hope that someone has the good vision to offer you a blanket and a cup of hot tea.  Perhaps then you'll realise that, as an expression of quite unreasonable pragmatism, it serves as a metaphor for the way we like to do things.  Bombs annoy us, so we have a cup of tea, and then we sort it out.

Incidentally, because the bombs went off in areas of London which are quite heavily Muslim, I imagine that many injured Muslims were given polystyrene cups of tea today.  Was your conflation of "Muslim" with "Islamist" deliberately calculated to insult, or merely ignorant of the populations affected here?

Don't worry, we'll already be responding to this.  But we've learned our lessons in Ulster, we're not going to go in like cack-handed children.  We'll arrest the people responsible, and we will try them.  This may seem like a terribly underwhelming response for those who would prefer us to fire off missiles, but I guarantee you it will work for us.

In the meantime, if you truly cannot see how truly tasteless it is to "pour praise" on someone only by comparing them to others who in the same breath you deride, there's no point trying to continue to convince you.  It's tacky, and disrespectful of the dead, and that's really all there is to it.  Try not to talk to too many people like that in London, though, when you get there.

I didn't think the sarcasm was that masked, in all honesty.  Well, if you didn't get it I don't think I can help you out, without it becoming more painful for me than a root canal.

Do give it another read through, though, won't you?

The Spanish reaction to bombings in Spain is of no concern to me.

Nonsense.  It concerns you a great deal, however much you pretend otherwise.  Else, there'd be no discussion here.

We're always in favour of a glorious defeat....

I can only assume that's why you're still here.

(Skipping past the preening rambling about tea.)

Was your conflation of "Muslim" with "Islamist"....

....a product of your imagination?  Yes.

But we've learned our lessons in Ulster....

Heh.  Indeed.  How's that been going lately?

We'll arrest the people responsible, and we will try them.

Really.  I daresay Scotland Yard in Waziristan is a sight I yearn to see.

....how truly tasteless it is to "pour praise" on someone only by comparing them to others who in the same breath you deride....

Only?  Re-read, chief.

It's tacky, and disrespectful of the dead....

It's neither, of course.  You merely disagree with it, and cannot separate your personal dislike of that from the higher moral causes with which you conflate your preferences.  It's called narcissism, and it's ugly.

How's that been going lately?

Ulster?  Seriously?

Well, I think the lack of bombs or major terrorist incidents of any kind have been a definite plus.  I think it's been ten years since a Provo attack produced a fatality and eight since Omagh, which was the dying wail of a small splinter group and pretty much secured public opinion against those who deal in bombs and not words.

So, pretty well I think.  Have you heard differently?

The people responsible are here in England.  That's how they got the bombs on the tube.  Assuming that they weren't suicide bombers, they'll have dropped them off in a holdall and walked off, a couple of stations down the line.  So we'll catch them.  That's what CCTV is for.

If there are funders or backers over in Pakistan, of course, we won't use Five's resources.  We'll use Six's.  Y'know, just like you guys use the CIA?  We might even borrow some CIA folks from you to help out.  What else would we do?  Invade Pakistan?

I don't see why the suggestion that we actually go and find terrorists, even if such a manner remains largely invisible and television-friendly-explosion free, is worthy of scorn.  What's your alternative strategy?

You merely disagree with it, and cannot separate your personal dislike of that from the higher moral causes with which you conflate your preferences.

OK, it's a personal taste.  I find it tasteless to dig at one attacked country on the day that another country was attacked.  It's the other side of those who are standing on their soapboxes and saying that this is what we get for being in Iraq.  Whatever truth or otherwise is in the statement, it's neither the time nor the place and makes your sentiments seem crude and partisan, like you're only on "our side" because we happen to be stuck in Iraq with you.  I'd like it if you were on "our side" because we were attacked and hurt, and because we're human beings just like you.  You can say how stoic and glinty-eyed we are (although you constantly diss tea, which is the source of our power, like Popeye's spinach) without once mentioning the Spanish.  Why didn't you?

Have you heard differently?

Only that the problem isn't gone, the IRA hasn't disarmed, they're back to robbing banks, and Stormont's longevity is perpetually dubious.  I'm not belittling the progress made in Northern Ireland: just your contention that the problem there is somehow solved.  It's in a lull, is all.

The people responsible are here in England.

Not all of 'em, and you know it.  As for MI6, again, best of luck to them in Waziristan.  I won't hold my breath waiting for the outcome.

Whatever truth or otherwise is in the statement, it's neither the time nor the place....

....for truth?  How absurd.

I'd like it if you were on "our side" because we were attacked and hurt, and because we're human beings just like you.

By this logic, of course, one must mourn the dying SS executioner, mortally wounded by his death-camp charges.  So no.  Beyond the simple ties of a common humanity (which affect common sense, but do not override it), I'm on "your side" because Britain is a friend, because it was attacked by our own mortal foes, and because the reason it was attacked constitutes a direct threat to all I hold dear.

You can say how stoic and glinty-eyed we are....without once mentioning the Spanish.  Why didn't you?

Because it's an immediate and obvious historical parallel.  That it annoys so many on the left is a fringe benefit.

Once buried, it will be time to avenge them.

It's about midnight here in the UK and I think that Tacitus, you'll have seen from the public reaction here that the British are a very restrained race. The word "avenge" isn't part of the public vocabulary, and while your post was written in the morning, I think you'll have noticed since then that no one in the media or anywhere else for that matter has mentioned the need to "avenge" anything.

There's a remarkable lack of hysteria in the country, and this is reflected in the TV coverage which is a refreshing contrast to the dramatic breast-beating and wailing that was such a feature of the American networks' reaction to 9-11. Just check out BBC, ITV or C4, and you'll see the truth of that. There's not a single Union Jack icon, not even a tiny logo, anywhere on the TV screen, no screaming "LONDON ATTACKED!" banner accompanied by martial music.

That isn't the way the British react to crises like these, and I think the Englishman Andrew Sullivan has a far better grasp of that than most Amercan bloggers. People here are much more stoically philosophical about this whole business than they probably ought to be be, but that's just how they are. Even the cricket match with the Aussies went off without interruption. McDuff is rather closer to the mark than yourself in this case.

There is the TARGET LONDON logo on....what was it, Sky?

Anyway, I don't dispute what you say here, as it coincides with what I saw in Windsor this evening.  As for McDuff, he's just annoyed at the Spanish bit.

One of the things you grow used to is that there's always someone who wants to blow you up.  I grew up with it being the IRA, my nephews will grow up with it being the various splinters of Al Qaeda.

You're right, the IRA have now transitioned to being a bunch of organised criminals who deal drugs and rob banks.  C'est la vie.  The popular support, however, is barely present, and the bombs are not happening.  If they come back, nobody will say that a decade of relative calm was a bad thing.

If you have a better idea about using intelligence agencies to track people down in Pakistan (assuming the bombers come from there), please feel free to explain it here.

I really didn't want to draw over this again, but: Aznar had already pledged to get troops out of Iraq before the bomb.  Their population supported withdrawal before the attack.  It was a point on which Aznar and Zapatero both agreed.  Aznar's ejection was because they disagreed on whether it was his fault for getting them there in the first place.  It's not a historic parallel, because a) we've already had our general election and there isn't one coming up, and b) both major parties support, in general terms, the maintenance of troops for now with an eye to withdrawal within 18 months, to focus more on Afganistan.

I suppose the parallel is that the bombings, as I said above, aren't opinion-makers on Iraq, despite what these terrorists want.  We're withdrawing gradually anyway as the ISF in Basra and its suburbs gets trained, whether they bomb us or not.  The Spanish were out of there anyway, Madrid bomb or not.  The Americans will be out of there just as quickly as they can, because you don't like losing soldiers either.  If you really want to feel morally superior to an entire country, please be my guest. It doesn't change anything.

In the meantime, I return to my original comment, right at the top.  You didn't mean to cause offense, and despite the fact that you did and seem to revel in it, I'm too tired of this endless pontificating to further argue with you over it.  Your gesture, coarse as it was, is accepted for what it was meant to be.  Even if you do not accept that it was tasteless, I can accept that, in your own way, you meant well.

So thank you for that.

It's the "Disgusted from Tunbridge Wells" side of our media, God bless 'em.  There'll be enough of that in the weeks that come, too.

My ability to set ratings appears to be off, so I'll simply reply to give McDuff a "5".

I don't know if it's occurred to anyone here, but McDuff actually appears to be English.  You know, England, where the bombs went off.

I also don't know if it's occurred to anyone here, but the UK is perfectly and completely correct to handle this issue in whatever way they see fit.  If it doesn't suit our sensibilities, too bad for us.  And, at the risk of pointing out the obvious, they have been dealing with this kind of thing for decades longer than us, and perhaps may be more effective at dealing with it than we are.

And, also at the risk of pointing out the obvious, they've been more than supportive of our approach to things, in spite of their very obvious reservations about the wisdom thereof.

So back off.

Rave on, McDuff.  If you ever come to Boston, look me up, I'll stand you a pint.  Or a cup of tea.  Your choice.

Cheers -

I should be in Boston next summer, and it'll be a pint of Sam ;)

I think, in retrospect, what really bothered me about this exchange was the fact that we were being praised for being Steadfast, Stoic English, but criticised for being so in any manner other than the very specific and stereotypical one which best suited the author's point.

We're not all square-jawed celts, standing with our craggy faces to the storm.  Quite a lot of us are grandmothers and schoolteachers and really quite quiet, inoffensive people.  We don't have the American love of grand, noble gestures and massive public displays of emotion.  I'm not saying that America is wrong to have these things, just that it's, well, both silly and a little rude to on the one hand praise our fortitude and on the other criticise all the things that make our fortitude work.  We're only people, just like you.  Let us have our goddamn tea, for pity's sake, it's not hurting anyone.

You're not reading the thread particularly well.  First, no one is denying the British their right "to handle this issue in whatever way they see fit."  Second, McDuff's qualifications as an Englishman (or Scot, perhaps, given the handle), nor even as a Londoner, in no way confer a unique moral superiority in dictating the terms of discussion here.  By this logic, I might as well demand he conform to my demands on how he addresses the American war on terror; note that I do not, his tediousness on the subject notwithstanding.

He is choosing to be a haughty jackass on purely aesthetic and ideological grounds.  As is his right: but let's not pretend it's more than it is.  "Back off"?  Here's your clue.

I was discussing this wth friends of mine in England and there's one thing that really just makes me laugh everytime I think about the recent attacks there.

I mean, yes, the deaths were tragic and civilian casualties always bother me, but seriously

Did anyone really think about who they were hitting?  England saw almost 2 years of constant bombing in the second world war.  Bombing that smashed their cities back beyond the stone age.  

And the terrorists seriously think that a few piddling bombs on the transit system are going to accomplish anything?  Morons.

You bomb the Americans and they start a war. You bomb the English and we have a cup of tea, and perhaps a digestive biscuit, and then we'll help people out.

Not quite fair. First we finish reading the book to the children (we're not into that tea thing over here), which is what we were doing when they started the war.

Then we go do the war.

We don't have the American love of grand, noble gestures and massive public displays of emotion.

QED.

Remember what Twain said about arguments and barrels of ink!

This is exactly the kind of fundamentalist insanity I've been fighting my whole life.  It's exactly the same thing I and my friends fight/have fought in the Middle East.  I CanNOT believe you just posted that here.

First off, you need to go do your research.  Pope Urban did not call for a defensive war against the "aggressive infidels."  He called for a Crusade to "Free the Holy Land."  An offensive action  by definition.  Furthermore, the Christian Crusaders who "freed" Jerusalem treated the inhabitants more cruely than the Muslims did.  

You can not convince anyone who has learned his Western History that Christianity is any more Peaceful than Islam.  Have you forgotten all the terrible things that have been done in Christ's name?  The Inquisition, for instance.  Or peraps the persecution of the early Protestant Churches.  Burning "witches" at the stake and hanging the accused who refused to confess or crushing with rocks those who refused to enter a plea.  The Spanish conquest of the South and Central Americas and all the horrile things they did to the American Indians of the time.

Get your head back on Earth and your butt out of those Fundamentalist "Christian" services and classes and go back to the Bible.  Go to a True Christian Church.

Good Christians my backside!  Christ's first teaching was to "Turn the Other Cheek."

You can not convince anyone who has learned his Western History that Christianity is any more Peaceful than Islam.

Well, no.

And that wasn't Christ's "first teaching," either, in the temporal or metaphorical sense.

since it's so distasteful(the OP...not your post).  But Urban did call the Council of Claremont in response to a request for military aid from the Byzantines who were fighting the Seljuks/Turks.  Whether that makes it defensive or not I'll leave up to you since I don't care one way or the other.  Beasides, I'm sure Aleks or someone else better informed than I will take it from here.

But I don't really think that surprises you much.

If Krempasky doesn't show up shortly and fry you, consider this a warning that such comments:

Get your head back on Earth and your butt out of those Fundamentalist "Christian" services and classes and go back to the Bible.  Go to a True Christian Church.

Along with most of the rest of your post, are considered Grade A unacceptable and will result in banning.

trevino -

You're a very bright guy, obviously committed and dedicated to a number of very worthwhile things.  You're a beautiful and thoughtful writer, and I always look forward to your posts.

I'm generally a pretty close reader.  I think I'm following the sense of the thread fairly accurately.  To be frank, as I make it out, in your conversation on this thread with McDuff, you're out of line.

And, thanks, but I think I'm fine without whatever clue you think you're providing to me.

With respect, my two cents.

Cheers -

people, not Zapatero. He never thought he could win. He just happened to be the instrument of the majority's cowardice.

We've seen it before in paris.

Does Spain have any beaches suitable for shedding of American blood?

All we ask for is enough land to bury our dead.

I think I'm following the sense of the thread fairly accurately.

Not if you're under the impression that anyone is denying the British their right "to handle this issue in whatever way they see fit."  

Fair enough.  I'll restate my comment to you.

I find the tone of your conversation with McDuff to be rude, patronizing, and offensive.  It's not an uncommon posture in blogland, but in the context of addressing a British citizen on the occasion of the terrorist bombing of their capital city, it seems inappropriate to me.

And, as before, regarding the clue, thanks but no thanks.

Cheers -

If person A from city X is being a fool on day Y on which city X is attacked; then assuming that person A is completely unscathed and self-avowedly unrattled by said attack, does it follow that the foolishness must ipso facto be tolerated?

Really, you tell me.

I think the point of difference between you and I is that I don't see where McDuff is or was being, in any way, a fool.

Obviously, YMMV.

Cheers -

....why not predicate your defense of him on that, rather than on his faux-privileged status as a Londoner?

Because the first three paragraphs were spot on.

Total Losses in Thousands

     Military     Civilian     Total     % of population

Ukraine     2,500     5,500     8,000     19.1

Poland     123     4,877     5,000     19.6

France     250     350     600     1.5

Great Britain     290     60     350     0.7

USA     300     -     300     0.2

Holland     12     198     210     2.4

Finland     84     16     100     2.7

Belgium     13     75     88     1.1

Avoiding a repeat of the rude!!and grim statistics you cite is best served by a non-appeasing Spanish and other European peoples and non-accomodating immigration and "tolerance" policies for islamic jihadists both on the continent and the British Isles.

I do not excuse the too liberal USA policies all around in this war as well, but compared to Europe, hahahah

What was rude was the Spanish people's appeasement. Our identification of same is constructive criticism.

I suspect that on the British Isles, the lesson will be learned and policy changes made. On the continent, I'm less optimistic.

Unfortunately, unlike WWII, the enemy advances thru legal immigration rather than thru blitzkriegs.

One wonders if post-modern secularists can work up a nationalist zeal sufficient to take the hard actions and deprivations necessary to rid their countries of the islamist presence only to leave a , well,/...post-modern secular society void of any spiritual values to the 1.5 children and dropping that manage to make it thru the 3rd tri-mester.

Or if the extent to which we see European resolve will be stoic acceptance and the courage to mont the tube, ....anyway by God, oops....Gosh.

Will church attendance go up for awhile I wonder?

Politically correct niceties won't win this war.

And unfortunately, the leftists in America and europe and their media so love the utopian society they envision with better bureaucrats than the USSR could muster, that they insist upon moral and cultural relativism between the reality that is western civilization and the wahhabist vision of same and so are no allies in the war against the islamic jihadists.

And in fact, by their statements and selective silence about the charicterization of Ameerican "bombers" vs. islamist "bombers" in fact aid and comfort the enemy with the resulting blood partially staining their BBC and their ilk's hands.

At some point, will we deem the placement of a nuclear bomb on certain territory preferable to more of the grim stats you cite or will we once again land on beaches to make Europe free to inject heroin and watch porno peep shows??

Revenge is no good unless by doing so you PREVENT future attacks, and stiff upper lips aren't enough to do that.

Yes, it is admirable to walk to the gallows without resort to St. Vitus's dance, but walk to the gallows one will if they continue to "tolerate" jihadist incitement within the borders while prosecuting their cultural remnant's recitations of St. Paul, Jesus Christ, et al. that make culture worth preserving and fighting for and preventing the  contamination of by secular fundamentalist sodomy in the streets, "free love" and cute "alternative" morally equivalent fatwas down by picadilly.

Restrained race to a fault? We shall see.

I am pulling for my anglo-saxon forebearers.

Cheerio and here's hoping the still upper lips work their way into new immigration and asylum laws and terrorist prevention laws ala patriot act as well as patience in Iraq at least equal to the patience of  those pakistani brits planning rail bombings.

cheerio from the folks who overeacted to taxation without representation

Fully aware that you all and the aussies are the next best thing to the ole USA,

but I'm worried about the plethora of liberal weenies over here!!!