Redstate

have made mistakes, perhaps the City screwed up worse than most, but there was a breakdown in communication and organization throughout all levels of government.

at gunpoint, I think.  There was an overwhelming sense by many that they needed to stay and protect their homes.

of current problems wouldn't exist.

To fail at this basic level indicates a huge problem.

I suspect in the end it was complacency, and too much reliance on luck.

THere is no way to explain why the evacuation order wasn't given until Sunday-I remember talking about Katrina and NO on Friday.  

Sure it may have been expensive to evacuate the city, but given what is happening now, was it worth it?

There is certainly some degree of blame to go around, but in the end, the failure at the local level is indefensible.

Every single hurricane. Everywhere.

Thousands of poor people sat in government housing thinking that the government would simply take care of them. They thought the government would restore electricity immediately, the markets and drug stores would be open the next day as if nothing happened. Many of the people in shelters didn't even have their meds with them thinking they would be home the next day. None of the most basic preperations were taken by many of the people you now see trapped in H. O. Why? Because politicians have trained them to think the government would take care of them from cradle to grave. They trusted a mayor that didn't even have the forsigth to use hundreds of school buses to eveac thousand of people.

This is a tragic lesson.

and one far too few will heed, i'm afraid.

We will see who did their jobs BEFORE the hurricane hit to prepare.  Tasks like this one.  The plan states: The Director of the Office of Emergency Preparedness shall continue to exercise all levels of the City government in emergency preparedness and response operations. Annually, a minimum of one full?scale functional exercise that utilizes all levels of City government shall be conducted. This functional exercise shall include the Mayor, elected and appointed officials, independent authorities, and such non?governmental agencies as shall be determined appropriate.

With such a massive failure, heads must roll.  Hopefully, those heads will belong to those responsible.

But you aren't done yet. Sure, Mayor Nagin didn't do everything he could, but that doesn't justify the slow and inadequaete reponses of FEMA, Homeland Security, and everyone else involved. The blame doesn't belong solely on the doorstep of the first democrat you can find ;)

Eveyrone at fault needs to be found. Both sides of the aisle, and at all levels of government. And problems need to be corrected for the next event, terrorism or natural disaster alike.

After 9/11 (and in my opinion, this disaster is clearly worse), at least we had the decency to wait a couple of years before we appointed a finger-pointing commission (which, we are learning, failed to notice the since most important and necessary target for finger-pointing, but I digress).

Sure.  Because no one, conservative or liberal, was blaming Clinton or Bush (respectively) until years later.

[Also, a side note: Al Qaeda launched those attacks, not Jamie Gorelick.  Keep your eyes on the ball.]

I'm glad that you have such a clear insight into the minds and thought processes of the NO impoverished as you post grandiosly from your laptop computer and high speed Internet access.

Come now.

Surely, one of the more saddening things of this whole disaster is listening to various Americans criticizing our nation's poorest as if they have any, ANY, idea how these people think and act.

I certainly don't. And I suspect the vast majority of RedStaters don't either.

Sure.  Because no one, conservative or liberal, was blaming Clinton or Bush (respectively) until years later.

That's kind of the whole point.

[Also, a side note: Al Qaeda launched those attacks, not Jamie Gorelick.  Keep your eyes on the ball.]

Ah. But the 9/11 commission wasn't formed to determine who launched the attacks - we already knew that. It was formed to investigate "possible intelligence failures" that might have contributed to the fact that we didn't stop the attack.

to bust the Mayor's chops after the huriicane hit b/c his infrastructure is underwater.  I do believe he made major mistakes in the preparation stage, however.

1.  "That's kind of the whole point."  Do I need to write, "I am being sarcastic" all the time?
   
2.  Please see section 602 of the Act authorizing the commission.  You're just wrong.  Or woefully incomplete.

First, it didn't take the Dems very long to try to dump it on the front steps of 1600 Pensylvania Avenue!

Second, it isn't a matter of politcal party except to the extent that the current mayor is a Democrat. It is beginning to look like it has nothing to do with party it has to do with competence. It appears from this diary that had a well thought-out plan --- and didn't execute any of it.

It isn't FEMA that was responsible to maintain law and order on the streets of the city. 80% of the city is flooded. Let's be generous and say that only 40% is flooded deeper than people can move in. This means that all those NOPD officers had to control only 60% of their city --- and they couldn't control the situation at the Superdome?

If I were in charge of FEMA I'd certainly start with the presumption that my military and civilian assets would not have to worry about gangs, thugs, snipers, etc. I'd start with the presumption that the local police would ensure that the work area was safe. Afterall, that's just their d*mn job.

But, hey George Bush has been wrong about everything else so he must be wrong about this too.

though I'd say keeping order in this kind of situation is better suited for the national guard than the police. This is too big for the local police only.

I agree with pretty much everything else you said though.

I'm willing to admit their was fault on the parts of both the mayor and the president. It's counterproductive to pretend that either one is innocent.

Just stop trying to lay any blame on Bush. There has not been one once of credible evidence that GWB was at fault for any of the delays encountered in responding to the disaster. To say "Oh gee, I guess everyone shares in the blame is just pure Krap.

...too much reliance on the federal gov't.

I mean catastrophic.

plenty of blame to go around.

Warning: Irish socialist's blog which, however, does not detract from content. Try to put aside politics and look at all the screenshots in magnification.

That by the time Nagin issued the mandatory evacuation order and designated the Superdome, etc., as the "refuges of last resort" it was too late -- the vast majority of New Orleans' population had already fled the city in the previous 48 hours (we all remember the clogged highways out of New Orleans during the mass exodus when 90% or more of the population got out of the city on their own.)  The people left behind were the intransigent, or the poorest of the poor, the invalid or ignorant, or the ones who deliberately chose to stay because they were afraid of authority (drug addicts, drug dealers, etc.) and weren't going to leave in any case, etc.  In other words, an admixture of the most helpless and disconnected, side-by-side with the most dangerous.  

All concentrated in the Superdome with no place to go and a Category 5 hurricane bearing down on the city.  

That the decision to evacuate came so late and that those buses just sat there after 90% of the population of New Orleans had already left voluntarily is difficult to fathom.  They should have been getting the poorest out first.  The more I look at it this is turning into a question of the last 10% (the most difficult and helpless and reluctant people to save were the ones who got trapped at the Superdome) -- which always takes 90% of the effort.  In this case that effort was almost nonexistant, and the decision to bring them into the city center when they knew they were going to get hit is just unbelievable -- it set the stage for all of the squalid and dehumanizing scenes we have seen over the past several days.

And that's just a small part of the pre-disaster half, not the post-disaster response.  Did anyone in the city government ever read that plan?  Has anyone in your local city government read its disaster preparedness plan?  

Should FEMA have had fleets of boats in warehouses in ST Louis, waiting to evacuate the NO residents that will refuse to leave?  Were you willing to pay taxes for such a prepositioned fleet?

the impoverished of NO.  I'm criticizing the culture of the nanny state.  Many of the poor have been conditioned to believe that the government will take care of them, especialy during natural disasters, therefore it was not totally unrealistic for them to believe the government would sweep in immediately after the storm and save them.  The point that Eagle made and I agreed with is that people need to understand the government rarely, if ever, lives up to the  expectations of the governed.

Just stop trying to lay any blame on Bush

Are you serious? It blows my mind that somebody might actually take your opinion.

Better tell Newt Gingrich to stop decrying the poor aid response, cause Bush is blameless ;)

Has anyone in your local city government read its disaster preparedness plan?

Everyone ridiculed the duct tape thing from HLS earlier, but its the kind of thing everyone should know.

It's kind of shocking how woefully unprepared everyone is.

I know that Bush will be criticized for not keeping afoot of the situation in the Gulf Coast, but does he need to go BACK to the region on MOnday?  It costs MILLIONS everytime he leaves DC.  Gas, Secret Service, Helos, National Guard, support staff-all for his visit.  Waste?  You decide.

I think we all already pay taxes for this to happen if need be.  The President's FIRST responsibility is to protect Americans at all cost.  Whether it be in NY, Afghanistan, Iraq, or NO.  Yes, we should expect it to happen.

Today's popular idea (I've seen it in a few places) of "let's not place blame, wait until things are all over" is, unfortunately, misguided.

We're in the middle of a hurricane season.  We're almost certain to have at least one more large hurricane make landfall in the southern US before November.

If we don't jump in, right now, and point out all of the stupid things that these people did (and what other people should be doing instead), many more people will fall victim to the same idiotic failures.

Disaster preparation and recovery isn't a one-time thing.  It's a continuous process, and you must "blame" the people who screw up so badly so you can get them out of the way and let people do the real job, and let the rest of the incompetents know that they can't get away with business as usual.

If you live in a town that's below sea level, and the levees break, the water won't recede on its own.  The streets won't dry until the levees are fixed and the water is pumped out.  That takes time.

Ambulances and buses and National Guard trucks don't swim.  If the roads are flooded, they can't pick up anybody or deliver any water.

buford, what should the feds have done differently?  Had fleets of boats on hand in a gigantic warehouse in ST Louis, in anticipation of thousands of New Orleans residents ignoring common sense evacuation orders?  How would FEMA have sold that to Congress?

FEMA DIRECTOR:  It's important for us to have this fleet of boats on hand, Mr. Chairman

APPROPRIATIONS COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN:  But, these boats will cost millions to buy and maintain.  And, Mr. Director, New Orleans has an evacuation plan.  If they follow that plan, we won't need these boats--right?

FEMA DIRECTOR:  That's right.  But we know the residents won't evacuate.

CHAIRMAN:  How do we know that?  

FEMA DIRECTOR:  We just do, Mr. Chairman

Something like that, buford?

If you ask your secretary to do a job for the Department manager and the secretary bungled the job then it is your own fault for expecting your secretary to do the job of a department manager.

It is obvious that Category 5 Hurricane would be Catastrophe and beyond local and state resources dont you think they should have activated the military or federal to do the job.

and I doubt that most still in NO 'decided' stay, just as they are not deciding to stay now.  The poor, infirmed, hospital residents, or others who waited too late-did not want to die in the streets of their city.

Or, can you show FEMA how to part the waters?  If you know where FEMA can buy a staff like Moses had, then speak up!  I'll help pay for a stock of them.

If you can't, then those who need help needed to move to places which weren't likely to flood, where the help could reach them.

They didn't.

make buses and resupply trucks and ambulances and National Guard 5 ton trucks swim.

Or YOU'RE the one who can part the waters.  ( BEHOLD---HIS MIGHTY HAND!)

If the people who need help are surrounded by water, it slows down relief.  If only a few roads are open, and they are potentially blocked by snipers, that slows down relief.

The fundamental problem with your argument is that it is a total generalization.

I'm sure there were some of the poor folks who didn't leave because they figured the government would help/save them. And I agree with you in that it was a mistake to rely on or believe this. I'm also sure that there was some small percentage of those that stayed behind that figured they could loot amid the chaos.

BUT, I'm not sure how you can assume and generalize that this is how ALL those folks were thinking.

People should ask themselves where a poor family, with no car, no credit cards, no cell phones, and no checking accounts (something that the vast majority of us take for granted in our daily lives) thought they would go if/when they evacuated from NO.

It's hard for many of us RedStaters to imagine this scenario, I imagine. BUT, were I in that situation (again, I am guessing a bit here), I'm not so sure I wouldn't rather take my chances and tough out the hurricane than pack up a bag, get on a bus to God knows where, and live in some homeless shelter for God knows how long.

It's easy to say in hindsight that they should have left. But that's with the benefit of knowing how devastating Katrina would be.

The bottom line is that of those who stayed behind - 20% of NO - there are variety of reasons why they stayed behind. Some just couldn't get out in time, some didn't have the means to get out no matter what the circumstances, some figured the government would just help them, and some intentionally stayed behind to run wild. And there are probably a host of other reasons as well.

But to generalize and presume that ALL these impoverished people stayed behind simply because they have become used to the government helping them (and as an aside, from the looks of a lot of these folks, it doesn't look like the government is helping them all that much in the first place) is a vast over simplification of the problem at hand.

Our government has no vehicles that can float?  Where was the Navy-the Coast Guard was doing amazing things the first day.  Do not tell me that they could not get in.  Fox news was there the day Katrina hit.  As my Grandfather always said, don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining'  You know more could have been done.  It's a travesty from Mayor on Up.  Pink slips will either be given out now, or in the elections to come.

It is not the President's job to call out the military or micromanage every event that may or may not take place in this country. That is why we have several layers of government. To think so is just plain ignorant of how the real world works.

indifference.  Or racism (see Congressional Black Caucus press conference on Friday).

I'm confused as to why you went with me on that one?

The government has helicopters and high-water vehicles. The national guard certainly does. The Navy has medical ships to help refugees. They were all simply too slow to respond, and slower than they could have been.

A medical ship departed Baltimore and will make it to NOLA next Thursday... well, sorry if I'm less than thrilled at that timely development.

We can drop food aid from helicopters in Afghanistan. Regardless of whether or not people are surrounded by water, why didn't that happen here?

See thread here.

These leftwing, Bush-hating fools do not add one once of benefit to this site.

If you ask the department managers (AKA the Mayor of New Orleans and the governor of Louisiana), who were elected by their departments, to do their jobs, and they bungle the job, it's their fault.

The Federal folks activated Saturday night.  The job to call out the Guard (AKA "the military") is the Governor's.

The Federal government, once again, is not the first responder for any major disaster.  They are there to support the locals, and when the locals get overwhelmed, it's their job to call on the Feds for help.  Guess what didn't happen in New Orleans until it was too late?

In the midst of New Orleans, where they could have become victims, too?  New Orleans has enough buses on hand NOW to evacuate everyone.  PROBLEM--they are submerged!  Kinda hard to drive that way.

Or, they could have gone to a huge Wal-Mart parking lot in, say, southern Arkansas, and waited.  This options overlooks a few problems:

1. Most of the assets you're claiming were delayed actually belong to the National Guard elements of neighboring states.  I'll bet those governors held on to them for a while, in case they might have been needed at home.  Katrina was a big storm.
   
2. If we had dispatched troops to stand by, where would we have put them while Katrina roared by?  Should they have stood outside in the rain and sung the "Army Song" while Category 3 winds whipped them?
   
3. Once the storms passed, and the Guardsmen arrived in New Orleans, they would have encountered felled trees, broken roads and massive floodwaters. Were the convoys supposed to fly/swim to the Superdome?

The damage has been done.  He needs to stay in DC and monitor the situation without causing any disruption.  The fact that people are coming in now is a positive thing.  Bush-if he does go, needs to meet with the 'people'.  Another photo-op will not go over well with anyone on both sides.  This really has become a bi-partisan issue.  I thinll he would look more 'Presidential' if he ruled from the White House.  HIs last three press conferences have been utter disasters.  He needs to shut-up, and let the work NOW speak for it's self.  Then he needs to fire people (deflect).  That would be the smartest thing he should do.

though not in the way the Congressional Black Caucus means it:

"Valenti and her husband, two of very few white people in the almost exclusively black refugee camp, said she and other whites were threatened with murder on Thursday.

"They hated us. Four young black men told us the buses were going to come last night and pick up the elderly so they were going to kill us," she said, sobbing. "They were plotting to murder us and then they sent the buses away because we would all be killed if the buses came -- that's what the people in charge told us this morning."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/mayhem_dc

I am more than willing to give on the old, infirm, etc., though I believe that the leadership in NO was derelict in failing to move them at least to higher ground within the city.

However, I can assure you from watching way too many hours of news that the VAST majority of those left behind were neither old, infirm, hospitalized, or any other handicapping status.  They decided to risk it, and now they are taking up rescue time from those who were UNABLE to leave.

Stupid, selfish, careless and cavalier are just a few of the milder adjectives I use to describe them.

if along with the food, leaflets could have said, Bush and God love you'.

if along with the food, leaflets could have said, Bush and God love you'.

was the highest point in the city.  We see how that worked did'nt we?  It had an open highway to it, places available for helos to land, and yet the Red Cross was held back.  Then now tell me why it tookk 5 days to get ANYONE there (besides the press who must have used Divine intervention to make it there?

It had been the Bush Administration that had suggested everyone head for the Superdome.

This is the latest Known Fact from the left. Like all the other Known Facts, it is based on nothing but hot air. There is no evidence of a "breakdown in communication and organization throughout all levels of government." None whatsoever.

I have worked with black children as part of my church's outreach to the housing projects of a major American city. Have you ever visited a rat infested, drug infested, gang infested housing project? I challenge you to visit one of these hell holes and tell me if you still think the Nanny State is taking good care of poor people. Welfare is killing more people than it helps. Let me repeat that for all you speed readers out there. Welfare is killing people. It breeds a malignant cynicism that chokes away any self-esteem. It condemns people to poverty, hopelessness, drug addiction and suicide.

Democrats pat themselves on the back and congratulate themselves for their compassion. I would assert from my experience that Democrats and liberals are literally killing people with their compassion. They assume if you criticize the Nanny State then you hate the poor. I hate what sanctimonious liberals are doing to the poor.

The people of N.O. have been trained to expect a few crumbs from the state and call it a life.

You have probably been banned by now, but a few points.

The Superdome is not the highest point in the city.

The Red Cross was held back by Blanco.

The press were there before the storm hit.

PatHMV has already written a diary entry about this (and I don't want it to be lost in the political fingerpointing), and the Horserace Blogger mentioned the author (Mark Fischetti) in his diary about the politics of the diaster, but everyone should read the article itself, from Scientific American (the date on the article indicates August 31, 2005 but it was originally written in 2001.)

New Orleans and the entire gulf coast region are far too important to ignore or neglect --economically, culturally, historically, in terms of energy and food and commerce and our national identity.  It's impossible to imagine America without New Orleans, and the marshlands in Louisiana and the gulf coast region need a lot of work if we want to rebuild it and intend to keep it around.

Even though you may think any ideas that are brought upi contrary to yours should be admonished and banned.  I'm still here, and as a born and bred New Orlean-I know of what I speak.  Funny thought that you think I should have been banned-why do you think that?  Red State has always impressed me with the open dialogue.

Even though you may think any ideas that are brought upi contrary to yours should be admonished and banned.  I'm still here, and as a born and bred New Orlean-I know of what I speak.  Funny thought that you think I should have been banned-why do you think that?  Red State has always impressed me with the open dialogue.

so far you have not brought up any.

However, white people in the Ritz Carlton, and the Marriott where one of the first people evacuated (albeit on Thursday).  They were rushed onto buses under armed guards, and immediately taken to the airport in Houston-not the Conventiom Center.

Leon -

What I see is this:

We are getting a LOT of email and commentary from folks who are simply desperate to assign blame for this hurricane and the lackluster response somewhere. Frankly, the whole exercise sickens me.

followed by about a dozen paragraphs dedicated to placing the blame for the lackluster response anywhere but on the feds.

I agree that it's unseemly to seize this particular opportunity to make political points.  It seems, however, that that is exactly what you're doing.

You guys need to pick between the following two options:

1.  Eschew making political hay out of Katrina
   
   
2.  Stop complaining when other folks do
   

You can't have it both ways.

Cheers --

The Coast Guard boats and copters you saw that "got in" were what was near the scene to begin with.  Larger Coast Guard ships and boats are all busy sounding out the new channels and restoring navigation aids like buoys.  They're not done with that yet - they're trying to recreate a system that took a few decades to get in place in a day or two.

They can't bring in larger ships of any sort until that's done, or they run the strong risk of having a large piece of steel blocking one of the few major routes into the city, with no way to get it out for weeks.

Even bringing in more copters and boats from other areas had to wait until the area was somewhat secure and for enough stocks of fuel to operate the machinery.

sine my facts are not 'open dialogue' enough for you.  I have read the facts and the thoughts-I digest them both.  Contrarians line-up behind me.

1.  There are large portions of NO unflooded (I believe 20% of the city is above sea level).  I didn't say every infirm person had to go to the Superdome or the highest point, just dry land where a helicopter could land or vehicles could reach.  The city should have provided for exactly this in their disaster planning, in addition to having provisions in the disaster sites.
   
2.  The vast majority of the people in the Superdome should have been evacuated from the city.  Most were not old or infirm.
   
3.  The levees broke through on Tuesday, today is Saturday.  They were evacuating people from the Superdome day before yesterday (Thursday).  5 days?  We are not even yet to 4 full days and the evacuation is nearly complete (according to Fox, who reported this morning around 5:00 that there were about 2,000 people left in the dome.)
   
4. Furthermore, evacuation from the Superdome would have been much swifter than it was, had enormous amounts of manpower not been busy plucking people one by one off their rooftops into helicopters and stopping looters, rapists and killers.  There are MUCH more efficient means of transportation than rooftop service, which takes me back to my original point: it was the foolish, selfish, thoughtless and criminal people who exacerbated this disaster.  Not the rescuers or their leaders.

For the link to the NRO.  The New York Times just can't keep its story straight.  Four and a half months ago it was a "bad piece of legislation" and a "boondoggle."  Now, of course...

fingers at the moment.  It would be the American people who are doing that.  I do not care how Republican you are or how Democratic you are.  The American people are saying someone fuc*** up.  As usual the 'buck stops with me'.  Bush has looked as remote to the American people as did his father satnding around the local Winn-Dixie watching the scanning machine.  BTW-is Dick Cheney dead?

I've seen reports of the confusion on the chain of command.  That is a problem of organization and communication.  Military officials said they would have dropped in food had they been asked, the Governor was pratically useless for a day or two, the Mayor of NO was on the brink of cracking under frustration and despair, FEMA said the would have moved in if given the order from the organization (GSA?) that was waiting for the order from FEMA.  I don't know about "Known Facts", but this is the reality of the situation.  Several agencies trying to get relief into a flooded city and other destoyed areas, without a proper chain of command.  The disaster itself created a logistical nightmare for even the best prepared response.

http://gov.louisiana.gov/Disaster%20Relief%20Request.pdf

Houston by then had opened its doors.  And, all evacuees were put on buses with armed guards, whether at the Carleton or the Convention Center.  Your assumption that the "white Ritz crowd" received more attention than the "black Convention crowd" is part of this whole race baiting problem.  And is simply not true.  Armed guards were making sure no one was entering the buses with firearms or other weapons.

correspondants what they think about the Federal response.  Please start with Shep and Geraldo.  Then you can end up with O'Reilly.  (Hannity is so removed-impossible).  They all say the Feds were incompetent.  Their words-not mine.  They are there.  I won't get there until Tuesday, but will continue to let anyone who cares to know what REALLY is happening on the ground.

the civic center was not evacuated until TODAY.  Don't lie-you should know better.  Do you have a TV?  Wasn't Geraldo on FOX last night crying into a baby's arms?  

Give up on the race-baiting response.  I never said that.  I'm as white as a Vermont winter.   It is not a race issue, it IS a class issue.

he did the right thing.  He came to survey the damage for himself and see how the response was going.  "Not acceptable" in his words.  It seems everything is starting to come together, but it shouldn't take the President's constant scrutiny to get things together.  

"It's easy to say in hindsight that they should have left. But that's with the benefit of knowing how devastating Katrina would be."

Who on the face of the planet did not know how devastating Katrina would be? Doesn't everyone now know what a "Category 5" hurricane means? It seems as though most of the people that stayed depended on incompetent city goverment to help them, and it cost many their lives.

I do agree with this, however:

"It's hard for many of us RedStaters to imagine this scenario, I imagine. BUT, were I in that situation (again, I am guessing a bit here), I'm not so sure I wouldn't rather take my chances and tough out the hurricane than pack up a bag, get on a bus to God knows where, and live in some homeless shelter for God knows how long."

People have done this for as long as there have ben warnings about hurricanes, and for many it became a badge of honor. The decision to stay was THEIRS, not George Bush's. After Andrew, anyone who decides to ride out a Cat 5 is taking a risk that the evidence counsels against.

The main point is that if you choose to preside over a welfare state, which is what New Orleans had become, you better darn well have a pretty thorough plan to take care of people when things like this happen.

Alrighty. I'll grant you the first line if you grant me the rest of the section:

(2) ascertain, evaluate, and report on the evidence developed by all relevant governmental agencies regarding the facts and circumstances surrounding the attacks;

(4)make a full and complete accounting of the circumstances surrounding the attacks, and the extent of the United States' preparedness for, and immediate response to, the attacks;

I also said:

However, given that folks are determined to finger-point right now, before the situation is even returned to normalcy, let us by all means examine a few pieces of relevant evidence, while they are "in the raw" and before they get dismissed as "irrelevant" by the inevitable official finger-pointing commission.

It's going on, whether I like it or not. If I keep quiet, it will just mean that the other side is doing all the finger-pointing. After a while, that sort of thing has a tendency to become reality among the general public.

The kind of precision in execution you seem to expect requires a huge ongoing devotion of resources--in money to pay for resources and personnel to be on standby, in time to rehearse and rerehearse and rererehearse your response.  Too huge to be practical.  

Are you prosposing, for example, that we should have had semiannual rehearsal evacuations of the ENTIRE Gulf Coast?  A three-state effort, at a minimum?  To get the level of precision you seem to expect, that's likely what it would have taken.

I'm not surprised there were communication problems, especially amongst many different agencies who'd never worked together.  It's happened on every Army exercise I've ever been on.  That's why we have communications checks in the motor pool, before we hit the road.

How would you have coordinated a communications check amongst EVERY National Guard, state police, local police, local government, state government and relief agency now associated with Katrina relief?  How big is YOUR motor pool?

See cirby's post above.  Where is the navy of which you speak, again?

1. Not everyone went to the Superdome.  I've seen plenty of helicopters lifting folks out of their own homes.
   
2. How many buses can you stage at the Superdome at one time?  If the answer is only 10-20 at a time, that means you can only load/move @500 at a time.

Keep throwing up your clay pigeon accusations.  I've got my shotgun ready.

Whether it is warranted or not (debate amongst yourselves), Bush will be to blame.  Someone needs to be fired yesterday.  Unfortunately Bush refuses to admit defeat and fire anyone who has faltered in his admin.  We all should know that regardless of how the city, state reacted to this disaster, the Feds completely fucke& up.  We have voted Bush into office for a second term because of his strong stance on security, and keeping Americans safe.  He ultimately failed.  Like I said-I am a Republican, but not a blind one.  What has been done since 9/11 to protect us?  How are his policies helping the American PEOPLE?  Great tax breaks, bankrupsy (sp) laws, Estate tax release, Iraq 're-building', etc, etc.  Even Scientologist would jump ship at this point.

... watch Fox reporters like Shep, Geraldo et al for the reporting of the story, not emotional editorializing on camera. I accept that they may be overcome by the sheer enormity of the problems and the human suffering. But having an emotional breakdown does not make Shep, Geraldo et al correct. in fact it makes them less responsible observers.

Although I think Fox is the only TV news operation that is even remotely even handed the fact that Shepard Smith breaks down on camera does not make him correct. It makes him human but at that point he has lost his objectivity and his reporting is now no better than interviewing a woman who has just lost her child. Being distraught does not raise your observations to a higher moral plain.

No profanity.

been perfect, but every military exercise I've been involved in (joint or not) has had a set chain of command.  And no matter what the IG threw at us, we were able to maintain that chain of command and get down to business, whether our response right or not.  That's not much to ask, by having a set chain of command you avoid alot of confusion.  You don't have to have an exercise evacuating 1 million people to establish a set chain of command for emergency personnel on a potential disaster in a hurricane prone area that is susceptible to flooding.  Apparently, there have been many studies done to this effect, it just wasn't carried out.  

Why were people so shocked by what seemed to be such a an anemic and ineffectual response by the Department of Homeland Security?  

Over the last few years, this Administration created this new department and worked hard to surround it with an aura of unprecedented competence.  The public was encouraged to believe that even though much of its work had to be shrouded in secrecy, behind the scenes Homeland Security was working hard to keep us safe.  Finally, after decades of incompetence, "the adults are back in charge."  No more nonsense!  Over the last several days, that carefully crafted image has taken a severe beating.  

Should anyone have really been shocked, though?  Remember, the Department of Homeland Security has also been responsible for the enforcement of our immigration laws.  

where are the boats that run everyday through the Florida Everglades?  Is this the first Hurricaine that we have experienced?  First time that the US feds have heard of the disaster that is not a where-but a when.  Come on.  If it were had been a bomb-would you still think the Feds did a good job?  

Secondly, I-10 is open for at least 400 miles.  How many 18 foot buses can you fit in there-you figure it out Einstein.

...keeping order in this kind of situation is better suited for the national guard than the police...

But regardless of which you accept is correct, it most cetainly is not the federal government or George Bush.

I would contend that had the NOPD maintained law and order the National Guard would not now be spending it't time and resources restoring law and order.

Unfortunately I disagree that the federal governement, and specifically the President, is not innocent. Had the local authorities and the state done their job we would not be faced with the chaos.

The government has helicopters and high-water vehicles. The national guard certainly does.

Yes, and they can only pickup 10 people at a time.  Less if they have to hover and pick up people by rescue basket.  As for dropping food, a chopper can only carry so much. Plus, they can only drop small packages at a time.  Imagine a mom and baby being CRUSHED by a huge food package dropping from above!

The Navy has medical ships to help refugees. They were all simply too slow to respond, and slower than they could have been.

And you spent HOW long in the Navy or Coast Guard?  Exactly WHAT qualifies you to critique maritime relief response times?  Or, did you want them waiting off shore-- in the midst of Hurricane Katrina! Are the channels and waterways to New Orleans, Biloxi and Gulfport clear and open to maritime traffic?  Are all the underwater obstacles cleared?  Marked?  If one of the relief ships strikes one of those obstacles, can you guarantee it won't sink? Is its crew expendable?  Should it drown or bob around endlessly in lifeboats?  (The Coast Guard is busy, remember?)

A medical ship departed Baltimore and will make it to NOLA next Thursday... well, sorry if I'm less than thrilled at that timely development.

Oh, ALERT THE NAVY!!  cd6 is disappointed with response times.  I suppose you wanted the Mercy or the Comfort (whichever medical ship is based on the East Coast) to be circling in the midst of Katrina's waves and wind?  Do the words "heavy sea state" mean anything to you?

We can drop food aid from helicopters in Afghanistan. Regardless of whether or not people are surrounded by water, why didn't that happen here?

All those helos I've seen flying around the skies of the Gulf Coast these week--was I imagining them?  They've been dropping supplies and rescuing people, cd6-- as many as they can carry.  That's not much--see Response #1.

You're not a logistician, are you cd6?

this one point.  The National Guard serves at the command of the governor.  Where and how they are used it up to her discretion.

  Once you federalize the guard, they can not act as law enforcement.

Don't you mean stopped towing the BS coming out of the Mayor's, Senator's, and the WH?  Shep (etal), has seen it first hand.  So because he shows a bit of emotion because he is standing next to a corpse makes you uncomfortable?  TOO BAD-that is reality.  Wake-up.  Ozzie and Harriet died over forty years ago.

The times article is referring to S. 728, the "Water Resources Development Act of 2005".

This bill would provide funding for a number of ACE projects among them Sec. 1002. "Enhanced navigation capacity improvements and ecosystem restoration plan for the Upper Mississippi River and Illinois Waterway System. the Review of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers Restructured Upper Mississippi River-Illinois Waterway Feasibility Study: Second Report (2004) by NAS apparently found this project wanting.  (I read a page or two, dry as toast!)

Now this is the section of the bill referred to by the Times as a "$2.7 billion boondoggle on the Mississippi River that has twice flunked inspection by the National Academy of Sciences".

There is another section of the bill:  "Sec. 1003. Louisiana coastal area ecosystem restoration, Louisiana." that deals with projects in Louisiana.  None of those projects are levees.  It does include about $2 billion in wetlands restoration along the coast.

So I think Eric got it wrong from NRO who got it wrong from eu rota who apparently didn't notice that the Times was referring to a specific $2.7 billion boondoggle and not generally to the whole 17 billion bill as a boondoggle.  To the extent that they condemned the wetlands restoration in Louisiana contained in this bill, I disagree with them.

But Nothing in the bill had to do with levees around New Orleans.  In fact, New Orleans is not mentioned once in the bill.

Exactly when do you think food aid was dropped in Afghanistan?  It wasn't until the military logistics were ready which was well after 9/11.  

As for the ship, even it had been prepped to go before the hurricane, it still would not have gotten to NOLA till late in the week, because it would probably stay out of the Gulf to avoid the storm.

The simple fact of the matter is that most of the problems would have been avoided if the local governments had been  on the ball and gotten people out.  The aftermath would be far more managable and would not be so dependent on resources from a base a couple of thousand sea miles away.

Bush does not have the power to fire Blanco or Nagin. The people of LA will have to do that themselves.

and yes those ships could have been stationed off the shore.  Albeit a nasty storm, they would have survived and moved in withen 24 hours.  You can spin it anyway you wish, but engineers and military guard could have-and should have been in downtown NOLA on Tuesday.  Are you telling me that the 'greatest' country on Earth could not make into it's own city for 5 days?  Come on.  I have been a volunteer all over the world in many disasters, and the #1 priority is moving in NOW-not when the channel is clear.  BS

the one at the top of the chain of command-not the president.  The presidents job is to put FEMA at the disposal of the governor, then the governer/local leaders tell FEMA what is needed where.

The governor seemed absolutely ineffectual here.

The mayor seemed ineffectual.

FEMA may or may not have been ineffectual-hard to say, given that FEMA seems to have done fine in other states that were hit.

and then poop here.

out to sea.

The Navy doesn't keep its ships docked or even close by, when a hurricane is on the way.

They go out to sea to either ride out the storm, or better yet, miss it all together.

There were in fact Naval ships out of Texas that arrived on scene and were working.

Other ships have been sent around from Norfolk, but it takes some time for ships to get there.  Airplanes are quick, but a ship can only go so fast-I think most top out at about 40 miles an hour.

Mr.Brown was fired from his Arabian Horse gig?

The Editors have rules. "Ounce" "a good think in such a unGodly " If this is a spelling bee, you bee beehind.

the real problem was in what happened before the Hurricane hit.

The news has far too long thought of hurricanes as entertainment-hey a hurricane is on the way-let's send our reproters to the coast to report on it from the beach.

It is stupid on the part of the news stations.

The American people have come to think of hurricanes as entertainment and something that doesnt' kill people.

Remember one of the hurricanes from last summer?  I think hundreds of thousands of people died in several Island countries.

People die in hurricanes all the time-we bacame too complacent.  People trusted a levee rated for a cat 3 to withstand a cat 4/5l-they took a gamble and they lost.

Parroting dKos talking points, especially when they've been discussed ad nauseam here, is not a good way to stick around for long.

There was a huge lack of communications, the Mayor allowed the emergency trasmitter sites for New Orleans to be built where they could flood, and to use natural gas for emergency power.Both things happened.

The Mayor could have easily demanded this be fixed well before the storm. The whole system should have been hardened, put on tall buildings, but I guess he forgot to do that.

The day the radios went out in New Orleans

This is just unbelievable.