Redstate

How many protests are spontaneous?  

In retrospect (20/20 retrospect, mind you), it's probably not so surprising that the MSM didn't pick up on the coming protests.  AFAIK, latino media aren't known for their political advocacy.  

institutional advocacy must be taken: major institutions of Hispanic society in America not only articulate, but attempt to establish as facts on the ground, a separatist consciousness among Hispanics, even to the extent of promoting solidarity with illegals and those who, while resident here, identify as Mexican and disclaim any sense of loyalty to America.  

And it remains my contention that any nation unwilling to muster the energy to deport such folks will never muster the fortitude to demand that they assimilate.  Period.  In either case, the measure requisite to success will be perceived as draconian, proto-fascist, and uncompassionate.  Squeamish Americans won't be able to sleep at night knowing that they have been mean.

is getting out of the tube rather quickly.

Getting it back will be very difficult.

the price for decades fo lax immigration policy is going to be very high, I am afraid.

I don't agree with Michelle on a lot of things, but the photo leading her site today turns my stomach. And the same photo is used in an a more complete analyis by Captain Ed at Captainsquarters.com.

I'm sure that the apologists for illegal immigration will find a way to excuse this (they're just a few students you know). Sorry, not going to wash this time. Hispanic media organizing these demonstrations in conjunction with groups like La Raza and MEChA to demonstrate "Hispanic power" is one thing. But they've inculcated this Aztlan madness into the kids --- the one's who will be "citizens" and voters in a few years.

If I were an Al Queda supporter I know where I;d be spending my time ...

If one looks at various places around the world, American culture (or at least popular culture) tends to be very attractive on its own.

They're stuck in America's urban public schools. They don't need to go anywhere else to learn that everything wrong is America's fault.

world is typically the detritus of American culture:  bad cinema and the dregs of the hip-hop world.  And the culture to which many of these refusers of the American identity are "assimilating" is nothing more than our crass bigger-faster-cheaper-more! consumerism, itself eminently compatible with a marketed and hyped Mexican identity utterly at variance with the American identity the nation requires.

If you'd like to kill the Republican party and conservatism, keep it up.  In ten to twenty, it will be done.

These photos, all of which are inflammatory to the average American, are also offensive to those with only a tiny slice of patriotism in them.

Sadly there is nothing new about this. 11 years ago while passing by an army reserve drill station in the North East side of El Paso, Texas, I noticed that a gigantic 65 foot long and 18 foot high series of murals painted on the side of a "United State Army" drill station that depicted repressed and poor Mexican's holding Mexican flags being dominated by American soldiers, I literally could not believe what I was seeing. To add to this visual fiasco, was a Mexican flag that was flying in place of the American flag at the station entrance itself. This being an "United States Army" facility and me being a Navy Veteran just blew steam right out each hole in my body.

Needless to say, I wasn't the only one that felt this way, especially since Fort Bliss was only 3 miles away. The flag was down and the mural painted over that day! But the entire town knew about it anyways, and those vets like myself have never forgetten it.

An attempt by Mexican's both inside and outside the country to purposely influence American policy toward a seperatist attitude, language and culture will be stopped one way or the other.

I think that Hispanics are entering American society like any other immigrant group before. Immigrant media outlets are nothing new. One problem in Hispanic families is the lack of communication between parents and children. The parents speak Spanish and the children English. The kids dont want to speak Spanish and the parents can not always easily learn English. All this worry about a new subversive culture is only a repeat of concerns in the past. The only difference between now and then is that it takes much longer to become a resident and citizen of the United States and therefore assimilate. As a libertarian/conservative, cut the red tape and open immigration as it was prior to the 1920's.

rebellion for its own sake - that's what we're selling around the world.  Is it a triumph of American culture that rioters in Paris burn cars to rap music, or proof of our utter bankruptcy, and the loss of the now unfashionable but necessary bourgeois mores that used to be the aspiration and duty of every American?

with Italy or Germany.

think that the reception of our 'culture' by citizens of other nations and inhabitants of other cultures is a truer indication of its internal logic than our own manifestations, inasmuch as our own cultural expressions are often restrained, however minimally, by the residual effects of the bourgeois ethic we once exemplified.  Non-Americans are freer to receive our 'culture' as a pure 'otherness', grasping its inner essence of appetite, rebellion, and narcissism.  What we are witnessing in our streets, and in the streets of Paris, say, is the articulation of venerable identities and grievances through the medium of our anticulture of grievance, entitlement, and self-assertion.

true but shipping from the US to Germany ment cheap rides as ships carrying US goods to Europe would often be empty coming back to the US were it not for immigrants which they could pack in. Also, the incentive for poor Europeans may have been even greater than for poor Hispanics given that there used to be free land.

About a year or two ago Mexico mad a basic change and now allow dual citizenships. They didn't do that to accomodate all the Mexicans who have become French citizens.

The Mexican government is complicit in all of this, right up to their eyeballs.

I am not quite as hard line as she is, and I think she tends to get a little hardlined on the issue, but I agree the picture is appalling.

I think it is one reason that adequate assimilation needs to be the focus.

We have a rather large Bosnian immigrant community in our town (legal immigrant), and they have been here right around 5/6 years, their kids are fully assimilated, and several parents are small business owners.  It is this type of assimilation we need to see.  One problem I do see with the hispanic immigrants is that at least to some degree assimlation doesn't seem to be the goal.  

part of the problem.

Right now they have absolutely no incentive to limit illegal immigration-tons of money flows back to Mexico each year from immigrants (both legal and illegal) working in the US.  Mexico has a stake in keeping illegal immigration high.

the other protests had several signs which essentially declared that the land the US won in the Mexican American War belonged to Mexico, not the US.  Of course the UN has set a lovely standard on that issue with its policies in regards to Isreal.

and thought-provoking, as usual.

is that we didn't share a border with Germany, and Germany had no historic claims on parts of American territory, nor did its regime derive some of its legitimacy from, and inculcate in its citizenry, political and racial resentment of the United States.  

The great migrations beginning in the late 19th Century ended in the latter third of the 20th Century. It was replaced by the current wave, largely Central/South American and in fact overwhelmingly Mexican. There are some significant differences:

1. The earlier wave was people leaving their homelands and travelling great distances, both intellectually and physically, to the New World; there was essentially no going back.

That is not true of the mass Mexican migration. Not only is the destination close at hand but going home is always an option. No real commitment is required. Add to that the belief by some of the migrants that this land is actually theirs anyway.

2. The earlier wave was not accompanied by the simultaneous development of organizations, advocates, "immigrant rights" groups. This wave is actually typified by this phenomenon; the advocacy groups who "speak for" the migrants; the legal groups suing "on their behalf"; the groups violating their own country's laws to "protect" the migrants. These things never happened in the earlier great migrations.* These groups organize to "speak for" the migrants, to gather them together and exercise the political power that occurs in numbers.

No, this wave of migrants is different, mcuh different, than what came before.

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* I attribute part of the "advocacy" group development to the same thing that has caused the creation of "advocacy" groups for everything under the sun; life in America is so good that people have plenty of free time and nothing to actually worry about. We have so much free time, we do not fret about where tomorrow's food is coming from, etc. So people join "causes."

the Falkland Islands. It may be recalled that the Brits and the Argentinians fought a war not too long ago over these little lumps of rock in the South Atlantic.

The British call them the Falkland Islands. but in Argentina they have always been called the Islas Malvinas. Argentinian schools have always taught that they are Argentinian property stolen by the British. The Argentinian view overlooks the unfortunate fact that the islands were British possessions before Argentina shook off the Spanish and became an independent country. But sometimes people refuse to let facts get in the way of image.

The situation with Mexico vis a vis the Southewestern US is somewhat comparable; the facts and what people are taught and believe are often at odds with each other.

However, consider that the US population is almost three times the size of Mexico's. Lets just assume that half, a huge figure, of Mexico's population comes to America. Do you really think that they could cause a seperation from the rest of the nation with then about a 7th of the nation's population. Granted they would be concentrated along parts of the border but many, a large number would spread out throughout the United States.

As far as loyalty to the United States consider that the number of Hispanics has doubled from 1993 to 2003 in the Army. If the United States would make residency and citizenry as easy as it was before the anti-immigrant legislation of the 1920's I am quite confident that the vast majority who chose to stay in the United States would be loyal citizens.

Also, for historical comparison, back in the 1800s there was not really a fear that land would be taken over by Catholic countries such as Ireland and Italy but people feared, and you can read it in historical newspapers, that the Pope might just move the Vatican over from the Tiber to the Mississippi. Why? People feared subversion from Catholic priests, who would create a seperatist society within the US. It did not happen!

...the land the US won in the Mexican American War belonged to Mexico, not the US...

And where did Mexico get the land?  You can play this game back to the beginning of history.

almost 50 percent of immigrants from Italy and South East Europe returned home after a few years in the US or were seasonal and went home for winter. Remember, that it takes about a week to go on a liner to Italy and a week to travel to Central America by car. Did those Italians ever want to assimilate. Not really. Did they stay in the US. No. Did they hurt the US economcy. No. Did they form separist groups? No.

Also immigrant advocacy groups have been around. But in different forms. I have researched Maryland history during the Civil War, and in Baltimore, the heavy German population organized into clubs, and even militias. We used to have immigrant militias. Consider that for an advocacy group.

Mexico has a stake in keeping illegal immigration high.

It would be nice to come up with a way of turning it back on the Mexican aristocracy there.  Imagine all the illegals heading back to Mexico to overthrow the governent.  The people there would probably be better off in the long run anyway.

to consider all immigratino prior 1920 as one wave forgets that their were many different waves. Immigrants tended to come when the economy was good in the US and stop coming when it was bad. Plus trends in the industrial revolution marked out waves of movement. As the Industrial revolution spread in Europe it compelled people to move to the US. As Latin American builds up their economy people are displaced and come to the US. It ended in one European country after another and it will end in Latin America also. Not every Hispanic wants to leave his country and move. Nor did every European.

Well of course Spanish-language media organized the protests. They were pitching products to powerful demographic group they want to be more powerful.

Conservatives complaining about the radio aspects of these protests remind me of the liberals who complained about the talk show hosts ginning up the anti-tax protests in Tennessee. (Which Bill Hobbs covered nicely, including here.)

Anyway, it's not the medium, it's the message. The protests in L.A. included much pernicious anti-Americanism. Rebajo reconquista.

Screw those bastar*s, it's ours and they're gonna have to take it from us.

Liberty!!!

That was an eloquent, although somewhat inaccurate depiction of human behavior, biased in it's observation, and flawed in it's results, it was all the same, very confusing.

Freedom, and all that comes with it cannot be quantified by such surface scrapping, inaccurate sociological conclusions, "Freedom is everything, and cannot be defined in it's behavior". (Ben Franklin).

The very culture of America has been written about over and over again from people all over the world and has mostly been admired through the centuries. A seperatist movement, that makes distinctions in culture, language and national identity a part of American society seeking thier own rules while identifying thier nationality and loyalty to a bordering country is "NOT" a good idea.

We have strived for more than 150 years to assimilate all races into American society with  rooted goals, beliefs and a national sense of identity that is favorable to our cause and our beliefs. Our beliefs on how we conduct our "Social Society" had been a tradition for many centuries and has worked for us more than we could have imagined.

We are now to accept a seperatist group into our social structure that has the objective to reclaim land that is thiers? I have a cousin that thinks just like this in El Paso, Texas. He loves me and the family, but hates most American's because they took the land from his ancestors. He was born in the United States, is a U.S. citizen, served in the U.S. Army, went to college, has a Irish father from New York, yet still, hates all American's for that and is a full supporter al "Reclaiming America" for Mexico, it's kinda wierd actually.

but it doesn't pass the exerimental test. While my evidence is not scientific, I lived for a couple of years with a legal, born here Mexican (nice guy, good American, thinks immigration ought to be by legal means although he thinks the numbers should be higher). He married a mexican who despite several years of working as a domestic, was still having issues getting/keeping her green card (nice lady, hard worker, I'd probably approve her as first generation-type immigrant, but she had a fair bit of trouble with English). They had native born relatives who spoke at best broken English, because they are safely cocooned in a Spanish-speaking enclave and never have to learn the language. Again they were nice people generally, but since they can't read or speak English, they can't tell what is going on around them. They are isolated from the rest of America, and even more subject to the whims of their media cocoon, which is even more leftist than the MSM. And that's a problem. My housemate use to constantly argue with his nephew about the necessity of learning English.

This is a significant national and cultural challenge: modern immigrants, especially from Mexico, don't want to BE American, they just want the money they can make here. You have to go back to colonial days to find another time in our history when the majority of immigrants didn't want to BE Americans, but came to be their mother countries soldiers in race to occupy the country. It took two wars against the British to overcome that divisionalism. We should never have allowed this to happen in the first place, but it needs to be dealt with NOW. Because if it isn't, the Balkans are gonna look real peaceful when fighting over this one erupts.

"La Jazeera" since they don't seem particularly interested in serving AMERICAN interests on this particular issue...

and some states raised whole divisions of Irishmen to fight in the Civil War, that doesn't mean that they were trying to "take" Georgia for Ireland. And the German ethnic "militias" in Maryland did not claim that Germany "owned" Anne Arundel County.

It's true that many, many immigrants went home at some point having made their fortunes in America. But that's precisely the point, they weren't try to "claim" Manhattan for Hamburg. The earlier immigrants did not form separatist groups, this one is.

There have been advocacy groups before is true. But their advocacy was not to change Massachussetts or Chicago into a county of Ireland or Poland. La Raza and MEChA are trying to create Aztlan.

you are right that fears about Irish, Italian and Eastern European immigration in the late 19th/early 20th centuries had the same tenor as some of the concern voiced today, but the fears ultimately proved to be totally unfounded.

But what you are neglecting is the fact that mass European Migration stopped around 1930

http://www.allcountries.org/uscensus/5_immigration.html

From 1901-1910 there were 8.9MM total immigrants but for 1930-1940 there were only 0.5MM total immigrants.

This is significant IMO because when the spigot was turned off, the large immigrant communities were gradually forced to assimilate. The Italian community didn't just grow exponential year after year. It stabilized and then over subsequent decades assimilated. Who knows if they would have had the same success assimilating if immigration wasn't shut down.

I think its fair to ask if the Mexican immigrant community is ever going to truly assimilate if there's an endless stream of new Mexican immigrants coming every year. I think that the Mexican immigrants that are here right now on the whole are making a significant positive contribution to this country, but I think to really be able to assimilate them, we have to shut down Mexican immigration for some period of time so the existing population can be fully absorbed.

Maybe you disagree, but please don't claim 'fears of Italian assimilation were unfounded' = 'fears of Mexican assimilation are unfounded' because a set of circumstances (ie eventually shutting down the new immigrant flow) that contributed to Italian and other previous groups' assimilation do not exist today.

that there were multiple waves of immigration. My point is that the the collective "waves" of immigrants changed at the last third of the 20th Century. There are differences in numbers, motivations, results, attitudes between the two great "waves".

Distinct "Waves" from time to time can be absorbed. But someone please let me know when this current "wave" is expected to end? If there's no end its not a wave its a flood.

before questioning you, but, this dynamic with the French is hardly new.  Before they had the beat of American rap music, they had the rhythm of the guillotine and the "blame others" mentality of both the revolutionaries and later, the socialist/communists.  Their actions seem consistent with their history, so to pin them on our (morally bankrupt) pop culture seems like a stretch.

Many of the socialists and communists leaders in the early part of the 20th century were immigrant. At least according to the views held by people at that time. They seemed to be very subversive to them. The "Red Scare" is what cut the immigration numbers as the government heavily restricted immigration. How many historians actually believe now that immigrants wanted to subvert the US government in a communist revolution? What was the potential for that even if the immigration was not restricted?

Thank you for posting this website

http://www.allcountries.org/uscensus/5_immigration.html#1

I encourage you to go to it and note that the yearly rate of immigration according to this posting in 1901 to 1910 was 10.4. What is it in modern times? In 1991-1998 the yearly rate was 3.6.

Now I am sure that someone may say they all speak Spanish now where as before they came from a lot of different countries. you may have a point. But consider this

http://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/p20-551.pdf

53 percent of the foregin born population come from Latin America. Most probably from Mexico, but many also from Hatti (French) and Brazil (Portugese) remember the most spoken language in South America is Portugese.

An abundance of immigrants yes, but by historical measures not nearly. If one has an open immigration policy it may very well increase in number if it triples then we are where we were in 1910. But on their own the numbers will go down. It always has for every immigrant community.

Is an Spanish immigrant today who works on a Midwest more likely to hear English today than a Swedish immigrant back in 1880 in the same location? Given communications of today it is easier to learn English than before and it would not be surprising if more do so than before. Any data on comparing immigrants from Latin America with others from Europe? Particularly Eastern and Southern Europe. Or is everything based on assumption?

this is a bitter pill. My wife, a legal immigrant and naturalized citizen, and myself are watching a tragedy unfold in Houston.

The school are being over run, the police services stretched to the point of ineffectuality, health care overwhelmed.

There was a shootout between rival coyote gangs over the holding of illegals for monies owed just a block from our house.

Yet I ahve held back from advocating the harsher versions of immigration reform.

Now I am asking myself, "Why?"

If the illegals and their supporters are demanding a fight, a fight they shall get.

And they will lose that fight.

Americans are asleep, and we are going to either wakeup and be Americans or we will wake up and find out there is no more America.

the illegals could have chosen to march with American flags. That would have earned my sympathy.

They instead choose to show their true agenda:

'reconquest'. My response to that is, 'not without a fight.'

Immigrants learn English. Only 3 percent of long-term immigrants report not speaking English well, according the National Academy of Sciences.

Immigrant children learn English. In San Diego 90 percent of second-generation immigrant children speak English well or very well, according to a Johns Hopkins University study. In Miami the figure is 99 percent.

This comes from a Catholic Charity Website

http://www.ccspm.org/services/immigrationMyths.html

on the current immigration rate vs. historical. And I do not view the current wave (if it truly is a finite wave)as a problem at this point, and as I said in a prior post I believe they have been a net positive to the country so far.

My concern is the ability to successfully assimilate this (primarily) Mexican immigrant community if the immigration flow continues unabated.

For you to say that "But on their own the numbers will go down. It always has for every immigrant community." ignores the fact that a primary reason prior immigration waves went down because Congress passed legislation shutting down immigration. It also ignores the fact that we share a border with this immigrant group and that the government of their home country DEPENDS on the ability to continue to ship 500K of its poorest citizens accross the border every year.

The past week of postings on this site have made it clear to me that parts of the Southwest are overwhelmed with the current level of immigration and watching the protests of the past week in the Media have me concerned about the Mexican immigrant communities attitudes toward assimilation. I don't think we can just shrug our shoulders and assume that we can just sit back and watch the current immigration situation resolve itself the same way as prior challenges with immigration.

What was good for the Irish, was good for the Italians, was good for the Eastern Europeans- ie shutting off their immigration at some point- also will be good for the assimilation of the Mexican immigrants that are here. I don't want to send any of them back to Mexico, but I want to see them pushed forward on the path to assimilation.

Also note, my view IMO is not incompatible with having continued high levels of immigration. Just that the Mexicans have had a good run, maybe its time for them to focus on assimiliating and let a new wave of immigrants from somewhere else- S.E. Asia?- start coming.

I'm going to try this one more time. I've never mentioned numbers or language, I'm talking about motivations, attitudes, etc. That and the proliferation of advocacy groups, immigrant "rights" groups, "sanctuary" groups, cities declaring themselves sanctuaries, etc.

My contention is that the immigrant groups after the latter third of the 20th Century have different attitudes and motivations than all of the other immigrant groups that came before that. And since the vast majority of the current immigration cycle is Mexican of course that's going to show up in numbers and language.

But I cannot find any prior group that came to America claiming that Boston legitimately belonged to Ireland or that Chicago originally belonged to the Poles, a position espoused by Mexican advocacy groups such as La Raza and MEChA. We have a large Haitian immigrant community here in South Florida. Although I don't agree with printing ballots and other government documents in "Haitian", I can honestly say I've never heard anyone from Haiti claim that Florida actually belongs to them and I should simply get out. The same thing cannot be said for Southern California, where I and others have been told that.

I'm not sure why it is so difficult to accept that this immigration wave/cycle/whatever is different, significantly different, than previous waves/cycles/whatever. Unless the fear of the potentially politically incorrect pervades this subject as well.

they can talk about the Reconquista in English instead of Spanish?

Are you looking a the pictures from LA? These are high school students, most of whom probably speak at least passable English (since we don't really teach anyone English in school nowadays), some number of whom have probably grown up in this country. They pulled my flag down to place it, upside down, below the Mexican flag. Of course you will respond that it's just one incident at one high school and you might be right --- today.

Go to the elementary school in those neighborhoods and see what language those kids are speaking. Living close to Wheaton Maryland and working with Hispanics 4 days out of the week I am almost entirely certain from personal experience that young Hispanic children rarely if ever speak Spanish unless compelled to do so.

The teens are more likely to speak spanish but that is in large part due to the fact that they are one were not raised in early years. Just a repeat of history

If one opens the border to allow for full immigration that would result aid assimilation. Ease of residency would make Hispanics less dependent on one another and more able to quickly enter the larger society. Also, seasonal workers would be in the United States seasonally. Right now many are a permanent part of the Hispanic community. Many do not return since they do not want to risk a border crossing again. Making the border more difficult to cross has according to many studies augmented the number of illegals in the United States. If they could easily cross the border they would work in the season and then return. Those are the Hispanics which do not truly want to assimilate. However, now they would not have an drag on those who are trying to assimilate. Make the border impermiable to prevent or limit more realistically, terrorists, drugs and criminals but make offical movement and immigration open and easy. Thats the best way to assimilate.

its meaning being that the French, among others, are expressing their venerable customs - in the case of the French, that of periodic bouts of public disorder, all in the name of the rights of man, or some other such rot - through the medium of our pop culture.  I don't know about the students protesting the proposed new labour law, but the Muslims of last November were steeped in a hip-hop culture that could not have developed but for our own, and utilize that culture to express their defiance of civilization in France.  In other words, our pop culture is the soundtrack and colour of disorder that needed a catchy beat and a certain style.

is not what language they are speaking, it's what they are talking about.

and take any immigrant group and find an organization that made outlandish, treasonous statements. Its not representative. Neither are these views that Mexico will take back California.

you are right, the rest of us are just fools I guess.

-30-

talking to you earlier but this is simply wacko.

If you increase the number of immigrants of the same ethnicity, language, etc., all you do is decrease the need for them to assimilate. They form communities large enough to be self sustaining without become part of the larger national community. Large parts of several American cities are like this already (LA and Miami come immediately to mind); people in those essentially closed communities have stores, schools, hospitals, newspapers, politicians, radio, TV, etc., etc., that function entirely in Spanish, Korean, Chinese, whatever --- for the most part they don't need the rest of us any longer. Are they trapped in a ghetto of their own making? Absolutely, they cannot move to other parts of the country, their job opportunities are constrained, but they don't care, they are doing just fine.

More of the same immigration will not reduce this problem, it only exacerbates it.

Now I really am giving up on talking to you.

-30-

And this is clearly incitement. The Spanish media. These are business's. They work for money. So follow the money. Who stands to lose the most from reverse immigration? The money sent back to Mexico by Mexican workers here in the U.S. is, I believe, the 2nd or 3rd largest revenue source for Mexico. There is even a proposal in some states to tax the money wired back to Mexico. Well I can't prove it but I have a strong hunch that the Mexican gov't is frantic to reverse this anti immigration movement. Even to the point of sending in their agents to try and influence the outcome. A few million $$ pumped into Telemundo or Univision or other Spanish media is nothing compared to the Billions they'd lose if immigration was slowed to a trickle. Or stopped. Yes I smell a rat. I'd like to see a really good investigative reporter delve into  this. I'd be willing to bet you they'd find a connection between the Mexican gov't and whats happening on the streets of our nation. All out incitement and involvement by Mexican gov't agents.  If this could be proven/exposed it would do a lot to get some of "our" lethargic politicians riled up enough to do something. And all the radical groups like Lulac and La Race should be looked at with a microscope. Find out where their financing comes from.  Anyone share my suspicions?  

I do.  There was a great thrust in the early 1900s, including the founder of the ACLU.  There were also facilitators:

http://magyartruth.blogspot.com/2006/01/nyt-communist-since-1920s.html

Some further thoughts on one of the subtexts of La Reconquista from Strange Women Lying in Ponds

What does the immense success of "La Gran Marcha" mean to Mexicanos and other Latinos? It simply means that we now have the numbers, the political will and the organizational skills to direct our own destinies and not be subservient to the White and Jewish power structures.

Its those Jooooos again.

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n/t

It appears that what we saw is a loud, vocal and illegal minority.  The same happened in the USA in the 60s in Detroit and Watts.  A small number of criminals rioted and were not punished.  They got their way and are still damaging the USA today under the table.