Redstate

...should not be the only one identified as an enemy of the Constitution.

  John is constantly struggling to keep the devils inside from bursting out.  The titanic battle for self control is sometimes lost and that's when he starts running around the room destroying the furniture and dashing off letters to Osama Obama.

    If elected President he will, I think, be the first president-elect to wear a strait jacket to the swearing in.  I hope he doesn't slug the Chief Justice.

This is outrageous.  We all know there's a way to handle this without undermining our most important value.  Transparency is key to campaign finance law.  The problem with mccain and his cronies is that they think a new regulation and new government solution is the answer to everything.  Hello, McCain!!!  

The government agencies McCain wants to hand money to are just as corrupt if not more so than lobbyists, and once our money disappears in the dark recesses of Washington bureaucracy, forget about it.

that mccain is just like his grandstanding buddies at the Main Street Partnership who hate the lobbyists and "big money" in public, only to take their money behind closed doors:

NYT

Diary

Americans in Arizona won't do:  Vote this clown out of office.

He votes against drilling in Anwar and all of GW's tax cuts.  Of course, he now is willing to extend those bad ideas.  He is a political CAT 5 hurricane.  Don't dare look to closely at what, would be, the first lady if he, God forbid, was elected.

His long term atagonism towards the freedom of speech makes him someone I would not suppport with money, work or my vote.

I would strongly consider voting for a democrat for the first time in over 30 years of voting Republican if he were on the ticket as Repubican nominee.

I see him as unstable and unrealistic when it really counts.

He has, it would seem, been transferring his guiltin the Keating affair towards us as a nation for nearly 20 years.

His stated belief that a bureaucracy can be trusted with our liberty is naive at best and deeply disturbing on any level.

Maybe he's just a Keating 5 hurricane, after all.

Let's limit it to people living today...

Anyone trying to disarm America's citizens in any way.

Anyone who doesn't understand that the 14th, 16th, 17th, and 18th (and 21st) amendments are anathema to the designs of the Framers.

Anyone who thinks that we can print government bonds to issue to the Federal Reserve, bought back at interest, but that we can't print currency.

Usurers.

Anyone who surrenders sovereignty of THE FIFTY STATES UNITED to foreign-dominated compacts & accords.

Anyone who thinks that people who are outside our borders somehow do not possess inalienable rights.

.... I'll think of more, but I'm sure that will give you all some ammo...

1. That money is somehow scarce in politics, so you have to sell your soul to get it.

Folks have the cause-and-effect exactly backwards: Hilary Clinton doesn't vote as she does because of the money she raises; she raises the money, because of how she votes! Like or hate her, but how is that "corrupt"?

2. Money wins elections.

It helps, but it's hardly the key thing. If that were true, we'd have President Steve Forbes today, as the successor to President Ross Perot.

3. "There's too much money in politics."

A virtually meaningless statement. What is "too much"? Who says more money "in politics" makes things worse? Please demonstrate that sentiment.

"I (state your name) solemnly swear (or affirm) to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.."

It's beginning to look like McCain is a 'domestic enemy' of the Constitution.

Do restrictions on how one raises money for a political campaign really violate the first amendment just because the Supreme Court says it does?

I do understand the need to tread with caution here, but I think it is a vast over-simpification to say money=speech. We're not really talking about speech, we're talking about reaching an audience.

Why not go back to the fairness doctrine if we want to promise politicians the opportunity to reach an audience?

McCain is like almost ALL sitting Senators.  High name recognition, no primary rival who has the name recognition or money to compete, no Democrat with name recognition or money to compete.

Thanks to his efforts on CFR, raising the money to raise your name recognition is close to impossible.

And, most of all, like all sitting Senators unless he gets caught naked on national TV with a 10 year old kid nobody (or not enough nobdoy's) care and will vote for him as long as they can prop him up.  (See Kennedy or Byrd)

It seems to be taken as a given that money = free speech.  And I can kinda see that point.  It is that the money I have earned I should be able to do with what I want.

My problem is this: why should somebody like Bill Gates have "more" free speech than me.  Wasn't the intent of the framers to give everybody the same voice?  Doesn't this (in some way) re-establish a sort of aristocracy?  Where those with (money/power) have more influence that others without it?

My ideal would be to have some sort of public financing of elections.  I just have NO IDEA where the money would come from.  Or maybe if candidates had "free" TV ad time.  After all, the "people" own the airwaves, and it is in their interest to be able to hear the candidates.  These would perhaps be avenues for those that wanted to forgo the "normal" fundraising route.

I know there are lots of problems with this.  This is just thinking outloud.  They are not very well thought out.  I guess my point is that I think that there are a lot of problems with the current system and so I kinda sorta maybe see what McCain is trying to get to.

But I would quesiton the premise.

Life is not fair. Life is not equal.

some people in sports have more talent than others. some work hard with the talent they have and develop it very well.

They win a lot of games.

Politics is not any different.

George Soros, for example, has used his billions to deny your voice equal access to the public square. The framers intended for people to be able to freely express themselves in whatever way they could. they did not amke any provision that all voices would be heard equally.

and public finance does not address that any way:

Why can't we advertise on issues freely prior to elections?

How dare the govt. seek to regulate blogs?

How dare the govt. even consider regulation of radio on-air content?

And I have no problem with individuals buying all the time that they want to say whatever it is that they want.  But I think when it comes to elections, candidates should not NEED to raise vast amounts of money to reach the important people: the voters.

So, if Georgo Soros wants to go to the airwaves, great.  But I don't think that a candidate should have to depend on him giving them a check.  It doesn't serve the voter's interest.

The ideas that a candidate brings should be more important than their wallet.  I know that is a bit Utopian, but there you go...

Try getting a full page ad in the NY Times with your good looks and winning smile. Even liberal radio stations cut off Al Gore when he stopped paying his bills.

Congress cant say we have freedom of the press but then wont allow you to actually pay to get it running.

And the fairness doctrince? If you want to stifle free speech further, sure, bring back the fairness doctrine. The reason that was a failure was because, if you interview one person, you have to give equal time to everybody else with a point of view. So, if you give 5 minutes to one person you have to give 2 hours to every other one who wants their time. The result is that tv and radio will just stop airing ANY viewpoints.

And expand the number of house districts by 10x and you have solved that problem. It would make the House campaigns much smaller and cheaper and the Senate campaigns virtually non-existent. The Senate would be brought back to what it was supposed to be: representation for the states. Not a more annoying version of the house.

works for the President ...... long overdue for the Senate.  Incumbents just have an unfair advantage.  

Five THOUSAND yammering pickpockets!

Repeal 16 while we're at it...

"I would rather have a clean government than one where quote First Amendment rights are being respected, that has become corrupt. If I had my choice, I'd rather have the clean government."

Suppose Sen. Brownback appeared on TV and gave the following quotation: "I would rather have living children than one where quote Fourteenth Amendment rights are being respected, that has become abused.  If I had my choice, I'd rather have the living children."

gasp Some might say, "He's putting a personal preference OVER THE CONSTITUTION!"

That's where we engage in dialogue and debate over what the Constitution allows, what rights it does or does not protect, and what Congress may legislate.  Here, we seem to skip that step and assume that all CFR is inherently, categorically, unilaterally, unequivocally protected under the First Amendment.  Which, it may be.  But, no one's talking about that.  Instead, this knee-jerk analysis is pasted as gospel truth, and conservatives are no better off addressing the substance of McCain's arguments.  Instead, they just have more fodder for future ad hominem attacks.

to do pretty much anything I want. We may not like John Corzine spending his millions to buy a Senate seat or to rent out the governor's mansion, but I do see how restricting that does run afoul of the 1st amendment.

However, I do not see making a campaign contribution to someone else as the equivalent of speech or press. As I said in my head note, I do think we need to tread carefully here, but I think simply saying that anyone who favors some form of campaign finance restriction is against free speech is reading stuff into the Constitution that just isn't there.

On the other hand, I believe preventing a preacher from telling his flock to vote one way or the other is a violation of freedom of speech and the  free exercise of religion.

The incumbants have to pass a federal law limiting terms.

Make it a twofer.

preferences over the constitution.

I am ardently pro-life.  I think Roe is bad law and should be overturned.  Abortion should be decided at the state level.

McCain's CFR is not a kneejerk reaction.  It is in direct conflict with the reason the framers included the 1st Amendment.  PROTECTION OF POLITICAL SPEECH.

McCain has just jiggered another incumbent protection bill in guise of "clean government".  You want clean government?  How about open financing and full disclosure in accessable data bases.  Then we can find out who's buying what.

CFR is most likely not protected under the 1st Amendment.  I fully expect it to be reviewed by the Roberts Court and tossed appropriately into the dustbin of history.  Along with Dred Scott and Roe.  Bad law is bad law.

that it is the 14th amendment that McCain is breaking. What children are dying because of the 14th amendment?

This isnt about trying to make a weak connection, its about something McCain actually said. If you want to go further, would it be ok to have squeaky clean elections if it meant you can go to jail for opposing McCains point of view? Fair trade?

The problem is this is not about all CFR, this is about McCains CFR which is clearly unconstitutional in parts and he knows it.

What's the difference between someone wealthy enough to buy an full page ad themselves and someone who can only afford 1/500th of that ad giving money to a campaign so they can pool contributions and buy the same ad? It's only free speech if you are rich enough to pay for the entire thing out of your own pocket? Otherwise it is just money?

I know you are sincere and have good motives, AL, but please think this one through.

Let's say that I want to run an ad in my local paper supporting a certain candidate.  But the problem is, that I only have $100 to spend, and the ad costs $1,000.  So I want to pool my money with 9 friends and buy the ad.

Am I exercising my First Amendment rights by doing this?  Is our little group now a political action committee?  A 527 organization?  Do we have to hire a lawyer to advise us whether we can do that?  If we run the ad too close to the election, do we get in trouble?  If the candidate is a good friend of mine, and I tell him I'm going to do it, have I now "coordinated" with his campaign illegally?

What if I want to do the same thing on a larger scale?  Let's say I want to spend $100,000 on a national TV spot?  Let's say I want to combine my money with 9 other friends to buy $1 million in ad space?  What is different about this scenario (except the amount of money)?  Am I not still exercising my First Amendment rights?

Even John McCain realizes that campaign finance restrictions can affect First Amendment rights, which is why he said what he did.  He happens to believe, however, that "honest" government is more important than the First Amendment, while others of us believe that "honest" government is impossible without it.

That he also does not agree that individuals should be able to spend what they want to get their message out. You really have to abrogate the entire 1st amendment for any CFR to really work. And if you are going to go that far you might as well just do away with the elections at the same time. Then we can have really clean government, like the USSR had in the good ole' days.

Enforce the 10th Amendment.

Then you don't have to worry much about CongressCritters because all they'll have to do is monitor the Pentagon budget and secure the borders.

Dept of Education... GONE

Dept of Energy... GONE

Social Security & Mediare... GONE

Entitlements in General... GONE

and that's just for starters.

Again, I want to emphasize that it certainly is possible that some campaign finance regulation does violate 1st amendment principles.

Secondly, I am not defending McCain-Feingold, or any other particular piece of campaign finance regulation. I would consider transparency coupled with deregulation, though reporting requirements are still a kind of regulation. I too am not happy with Corzine-type self-funded campaigns, but on that issue, I don't see any constitutional way to eliminate them. At least there, we do know where the money is coming from.

However, I don't hold the view that any CFR necessarily violates them, because I do not believe that money is the same thing as speech. I understand they are related, but I also see that other values such as a democratic commitment to equality demands to be considered in any balance.

In the example about 10 people kicking in $100 v. 10 people kicking in $100k, I do see a difference, in terms of the implications for democracy. A candidate who raises his money in relatively small chunks has a wide base of support which grants democratic legitimacy. I think this is where we do part company.

If I can't buy an ad because newspapers refuse to publish my ad (maybe they're offensive, or shocking, or maybe the publisher just doesn't want my money) is my right to freedom of the press violated? Of course not. If I lack the financial wherewithal to do buy an ad, is my right to freedom of speech therefore violated? I don't think it is. I think the first amendment refers to content, not financing.

Finally, I have little patience with those who claim that somehow our system of financing campaigns is benign. I suspect, on the contrary, that those people funding our campaign process look at their contributions not as speech, but as investments. And given the bloat in our federal budget and the horror that is our tax code, I'd say the return on investment is pretty high.

unless you go with a constitutional amendment.

How about three amendments, Term limits for congress, line item veto, balanced budget amendment?

I am sure we can think of plenty more to go into a new bill of rights.

People would not spend so much money to gain political power if the Government hadn't usurped so much power from the states and the people in the first place.

thru Congress...

... to preserve, protect and define the Constitution of the United States ...

would insure that political power, not money or ideas fueled by money, ruled the political market place.

I reject that.

What I am after is the freedom for people to put their money where they think it will do the most good, and do it as much as they like. If I want to blow my vast inheritance on one candidate or party, so be it.

I have no interest in a dramatic increase in Congressional members. I would like to see states take over the election of Senators and have the legislatures elect them; ending the popular vote for same.

If we had a proportionality system, of one congress person per million citizens, that could be interesting. But I would want the implications of it studied and understood very well prior to amending the constitution for it.

Non-citizens should not count in that kind of apportionment.

how all Americans were absolutely equal in their financial resources back in 1776 - Washington, Jefferson, Adams et al. no richer than anyone else?  

Or were you thinking more in modern terms, sort of how every time John McCain gets invited onto national TV, you and I do as well, so that we all have an equal voice?

We are all equal in the voting booth.  That's were the equality lies.  To try to make us all equal before that point is impossible, and very dangerous to try.

The house is supposed to be the people's body:

• The original ratio was about 50,000 people represented per congresscritter.
  
• Now it's 690,000 people represented per congresscritter.
  
• You are proposing 1 million per represented per congresscritter.

That would remove the congresscritters from the people they represent even more than they are today. It would mean more money is required to run an effective campaign. Even more money would pour in from people outside the district. The House campaigns will look more and more like Senate campaigns, which is exactly what we don't want.

Serving a term or two in Congress and going back to your day job should be an option for ordinary people. Our representatives should be approachable and reachable, not professional mini-Senators. Restoring the House back to it's original intent (even if that means a much bigger building) would do a lot of good for the system.

is that McCain just doesn't think political donations are a form of speech.  This is absolutely incorrect, of course, but there's room for good-faith disagreement.

Except for about 20,000,000 non-citizens.

That would = 280 congressmen, by simple math, at 1 congressmen per million, an increase over the current House but not a dramatic one.

"Free Speech" means free of prior restraint, not free of charge.

So simple, even a Senator could understand the distinction.

--furious

too much credit.

It's not a matter of understanding.  It's a matter of caring.

if it is ratified by 3/4 of the states, then you can by-pass congress

But i would like to address a couple of points:

In the example about 10 people kicking in $100 v. 10 people kicking in $100k, I do see a difference, in terms of the implications for democracy

I would say that most people dont like the Corzine "buy a vote" campaign or huge donations. The problem is that who are you or i to decide what amount is no longer constitutional?

I find that a very dangerous area since the first amendment says "Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech..." It doesnt says some laws or specific laws or arbitrary laws. Those two letters are very, very important. Sure it may suck, but the alternative sucks even more.

Your reference to not being able to buy an ad because of the papers decision or for the lack of funds is not relevant for it is not a Constitutional issue. In both these cases there is not government involvement. In finance "reform" there is.

Actually you mentioned the fairness doctrine and I would say that makes more of a case of restriction of speech because it's a government imposition that actually abridges the papers freedom of the press to write what it wants, instead forces it to write what it doesnt.

If the process were transparent, perhaps a website list that has every contribution listed and who it is from is the right way to go. I dont think many people would consider disclosure as an infringement of the 1st amendment.

We have 435 house members right now. So I don't see how 280 would be an increase over the current house. Making the house smaller is the last thing we should be doing.

This is what he said:

I would rather have a clean government than one where "First Amendment rights" are being respected

I believe the reason for putting 1st Amendment Rights in quotes is because he is actually referring to the legal fiction of corporations having Constitutional rights.

The reason it is considered a "legal fiction" is that it requires a misreading of the 1886 SC ruling known as Santa Clara v. Union Pacific RR

As you can see in the cited decision, although the railroads claimed as a defense their rights under the newly minted 14th amendment, the court was very clear in its ruling:

It results that the court below might have given judgment in each case for the defendant upon the ground that the assessment, which was the foundation of the action, included property of material value which the state board was without jurisdiction to assess, and the tax levied upon which cannot, from the record, be separated from that imposed upon other property embraced in the same assessment. As the judgment can be sustained upon this ground, it is not necessary to consider any other questions raised by the pleadings and the facts found by the court. [118 U.S. 394, 417]

It has nothing to do with corporations.  The quotes refer to the idea that money = speech.  That has been the argument of CFR supporters the whole time.  Since CFR limits individual donations as well as corporate ones, this has nothing to do with corporate law.

knows what's better for us than we do, and certainly better than those old, dead, white, slave owners who wrote the silly old document.

John McCain is an ego-maniacal fruitcake who appreciates ONLY his agenda.

is the corporate 1st amendment argument.

corporations only speak through their contributions, hiring of people, buying of ads, or purchasing air time.  They do not speak at rallies.  They do not speak by voting.  They do not speak by exercising their company's chartered religion.  

corporations "speak" by "voting with their wallets".

Look at any race...for convenience I take Hillary's Senate race at http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/contrib.asp?CID=N00000019&cycle=
2006

While the vast majority of money raised is from individuals, they are spread out and dilute the impact of any one or two people. Corporations on the other hand are a different animal:



1    Metropolitan Life    $153,600

2    Goldman Sachs    $148,010

3    Citigroup Inc    $134,940

4    Corning Inc    $133,400

5    Time Warner    $90,060

6    New York Life Insurance    $85,600

7    International Profit Assoc    $80,400

8    Skadden, Arps et al    $67,250

9    JP Morgan Chase & Co    $56,860

10    Cablevision Systems    $53,900



Those are the top ten contributors.  They are all corporations.

My bad.

I was thinking of something else entirely.

Before I start in on this, I should point out that not too many years ago, my position on this was roughly the same as yours: I didn't see how anyone outside of K Street could claim, with a straight face, that handing off a suitcase full of twenties could constitute "free speech," which I figured was where anti-CFR stood. The essential problem with CFR isn't that it restricts financial transactions, in general, but that it monetizes certain acts of free speech in order to consider them financial transactions and regulate them. Hence the unprecedented cooperation between RedState and Kos over this issue: the specter that a remarkably wide range of expression on the Internet could be considered an in-kind contribution and regulated as such.

However, you clearly have migrated from the position...which may be relevant, or not... but you raise an additional issue about the in-kind sort of contribution and regulation of speech of individuals in venues ...

I don't want to mix things into a slurry so let me clarify the independent threads that I think are important.  If you have additional threads that you think have been overlooked, please include them in your response.

1. Individuals acting as individuals
   
   
2. Individuals acting for corporations
   
   
3. Corporations acting through people
   
   
4. Corporations enabling individuals

"Individuals" are single people.

"Corporations" can be private/public/for profit/non-profit, C corp, S corp, LLC, PA, doesn't matter.

The first amendment gives people the right to assemble to redress grievances.  So people can pool their votes and their money.  To pool the votes effectively you have political parties.  To pool the money effectively you need corporate structures.  Corporations act through people.  

The concerns are:

a) undo influence

b) conflicts of interest

c) equal access

If money=speech then those with more money have more speech.  That certainly can have an undo influence.  

A second concern is conflict of interest.  A for-profit corporation with a financial interest in certain policies is going to support the people who promote those policies.  The problem is that the financial interests of some members may outweight the policy interests of other members.

Finances are important primarily for media buys. By driving political discourse to expensive media channels, you guarantee that equal access will be compromised.

The new wrinkle is the threat to the net by declaring venues political zones offering "in kind" support as distribution channels.

Anything you want to add?

Because you keep dragging in corporations when Adam and I have expressed unhappiness over an issue that's completely orthogonal to whether corporations are considered persons, non-persons, or navigable waterways. What gets people here hot under the collar is that McCain's vision of the First Amendment does not include people expressing political opinions of their own websites, if they spend too much money maintaining them. Big bandwidth bill this month? Oops, break out the FEC disclosure forms! That is why people go after that sanctimonious blowhard, not because of his opinions on Santa Clara, whatever they are.

He could not attack sites without first attacking the corporations.

but you don't have to be a corporation to own or rent a webserver or run a website.

First, McCain's comments, and the laws he has supported, are not limited to corporations.  That is simply beyond dispute.  McCain-Feingold, and other measures McCain has supported, limit individual donations, not just corporations.

Second, corporate contributions are prohibited by federal law. 2 USC 441b. What you list above are not actually corporate contributions, but contributions by individuals who work for corporations, and/or contributions from corporate PACs, which themselves get money from voluntary contributions by corporate executives, shareholders, and their families.  You probably got these numbers from some source such as the Center for Responsive Politics.  Read the fine print on their site.  These are not corporate contributions.

But beyond these factual and legal errors, the comment shows another problem with the logic of campaign finance regulation. What is a corporation but a group of people?  When the U.S. government adopts a policy that might devastate a corporation's profits and force major cutbacks in its hiring, who better to speak out than the corporation as a corporation?  In doing so, they often speak not only for their executivs and shareholders, but for hourly workers and their families, for others who make their living by serving those corporate workers, and so on.  

It would be nice to think of a corporation in a 19th century sense, as a rather unusual type of entity getting special benefits from the government.  The reality today is that virtually all economic, and much non-economic, activity is conducted by corporations.  Sub-S corporations have replaced sole proprietorships; Limited Liability Corporations have replaced partnerships; even the smallest non-profits are routinely incorporated.  Meanwhile, one could argue that most citizens get some "special" benefits from the government, in direct payments, preferential regulation or treatment, or some other way.  

If one favors restrictions on speech, one might argue that corporations should be subject to limits, as are individuals.  But it is very tough to argue that they should be banned completely.

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