Redstate

Don't expect much.

Personally, I'd like to see Murtha get up and spout that off at the next USMC Birthday Ball.

to remove this scum.

he's not going to be very welcome around the Washington Marine Barracks. And he probably wants to avoid the PX at Ft. Myers too --- along with every other US military post in the galaxy.

my ears. Is Murtha insane? Who does that vitriolic bilge play to? Does he think it shows support for the military by interspersing the dialogue with platitudes like soldiers are tired, stretched too thin, etc.

Pennsylvania must be so proud, not.

It worked for Kerry.

would be to donate to his opponent, Ms. Irey.

after all superfluous stupidity and outrageously false statements works for Howard Dean.

even trademark it.  "to murther" is the archaic form of "to murder".  The Founders probably would have called Murtha a "murtherer", had they been so unfortunate as to speak with him.

and second guess.  The exquisite judgement, self restraint, and moral rectitude of those who aren't there, whose lives are not on the line, who can't imagine the fear and tension of the young people who do the dirty work, is a repulsive example of the cheap, exhibtionist, and self praising morality of our time.  Particularly so in that hell of mental dwarfism known as the media.

       This kind of criticism has been going on since the start of the war and by people who show less self control in a department store. It ties in with the prison abuse, Americans as torturers binge.

       A peculiar way to support the troops and as always a Democrat trailing after the press, picking up the crumbs, scraps, and dirt they leave for him.

when someone puts their party and politics above the fair treatment of our servicemen. It is particularly galling that it comes from former Marine, a Korean vet who should know better. Murtha is not not worth a bucket of warm spit and I hope he will be run off by the voters next time he stands for election.

There, I said it.  I took both hands and grabbed the third rail of political debate.  I question the patriotism of a decorated veteran.  How can I do this?

The reason why we venerate veterans so much is because they put their lives on the line for a greater purpose.  They also demonstrate their willingness to lay down their life in the service of the nation, in other words, to put others ahead of themself.  As part of this ethic, it is necessary to learn to put the team ahead of yourself.  It leaves me to ask: what exactly did Murtha learn in the service?  Lots of people can serve without ever learning the core lessons of the veteran.  Could he be one of them?

Unless he can explain himself, he's broken away from those traditions of the veteran.  Why is this an issue?  Because every time he opens his mouth he's trading on his goodwill as a veteran.  As long as he has that goodwill, he gets press.  Well I want to TAKE AWAY that goodwill.  I want for the nation to renounce his allegedly venerable position.  Excommunicate him.  Exile him.  Renounce him as a veteran.  It's one thing to live to a code and to step far away from it like Duke Cunningham, but what Murtha's doing is arguably far worse.  While the Duke had greed as motivation, he has since come clean and he's helping root out more corruption.  In other words, the Duke is on the path to redemption and God Bless him.  Murtha, however, is most certainly not.

I think it would be fitting for the Marine Corps to censure him at a minimum.  Trading on Marines to get in the papers is disgusting.  

Tanker, sometimes people are so reprehensible that they forefit their right to receive  consideration for their past good deeds.

I think Murtha has reached that point and should be considered a traitor and turncoat by all veterans.

Drum him out of the Corp.

it'll never happen..

Well I want to TAKE AWAY that goodwill.  I want for the nation to renounce his allegedly venerable position.  Excommunicate him.  Exile him.  Renounce him as a veteran.

As much as the MSM and liberals HATE the military and all that it stands for, they will always LOVE a turncoat. Murtha, Kerry...anyone who has served in the military and then criticises it is a GOD to these people!

Help to vote the SOB out of office. I just made a contribution, you should too!

But I surmiss that if he ever sees two or more servicemen in the same place he'd be well advise to walk the opposite direction.

there is no such thing as a former Marine. It might be appropriate for a group, a really large group, of "inactive" Marines to gather and hold a formal drumming out ceremony :-)

I suggest applying some "family discipline" to a most unruly, foul-mouth child.

would have been a great Patriot. Here is a peek at the traitor of the American Revolution, a man who HAD BEEN a true American hero. Sound familiar?

Arnold, fleeing down the Hudson River on a British ship, defended his treason in a letter to Washington, stating that "love to my country actuates my present conduct, however it may appear inconsistent to the world, who very seldom judge right of any man's actions."

 H*ll, if he were alive today, he'd be serving in congress!

His treason was not that of a principled man but that of a selfish one, and he never lived that down.

This looks to me like a perfect description of Murtha!

We wouldn't do anything Blatantly illegal...

At least Benedict Arnold had the character to turncoat and acknowledge his actions. To be as honest, Murtha should resign and move to Iran, Cuba or France.

Murtha is a despicable turncoat and media whore because he's gone on record saying that the killing of 15 civilians was unwarrented. The actual marines who killed the civilians don't damage our national security, but the politician does.

There is a difference between collateral damage, even to the extent of a civilian shielding a terrorist, and needless killing. If I was a marine I would be more upset at my fellow soldiers who acted inexcusably. Murtha may be a politician, but he's not a murderer.

some character in some small way by openly doing what he did (although he avoided what he deserved).

Murtha, on the other hand, does what he does while he ducks behind his "prior service" and "patriotism", the anti-criticism shields of the Arm Chair Warriors.

And the MSM has a "Murthagasm". Whenever he coughs, he gets airtime.

have you seen any defense of the marines offered here?

The matter is still being investigated, and if proven those Marines will spend time in prison. Suggesting that we are giving the Marines a pass while commenting on the crimes of Murtha against his own government, is unpardonable SPIN!

may be just unpleasant --- in perfectly civil manner of course.

who would.

specifically or the military in general.  There are too many civilians who think this is 1971.

The Marines operate on a concept that isn't found and can't be related to in civilian life.  It's called an "honor code".  Family.  Country.  Corps.  There is nothing else.  Marines will die, willingly and in large numbers if necessary, to protect the honor of the Corps.  My son, a SpOps Marine, was home on predeployment leave and some friends came by the house.  In the course of chatting about "stuff" one of them asked him what he did when he wasn't training.  "Sometimes I like to be alone and think about the Marines who've come before me and the price they paid.  And I pray I'll serve in a way that honors them."  He was 19 at the time.

Bottom line, if those Marines "murdered" civilians, the Corps will make sure they pay for it.  They likely acted in the "fog of war" but there is no excuse for violating the RoE or for killing unarmed civilians.

John Murtha has gone out of his way, before the Corps has investigated, to drag the reputation of every US Marine through the mud.  He served in Vietnam and afterwards.  He has stated that he would not enlist today.  He has no loyalty to the Corps.  He doesn't understand HONOR.  Or DUTY.  

His actions are far worse than those of the young Marines IF they are found guilty.  He will not be forgotten by Marines or Marine Corps families.  He has insulted every serving US Marine, every honorably retired US Marine and every US Marine Corps family.  We bleed red and gold.  We don't forget.

He has stated that he would not enlist today.

He would not be found FIT to serve today!

Makes Dean look like a genius.

There is a formal review taking place. No results as of yet. How can Murtha judge? How can you?

Every politican that gives any indication that this Country is not fully committed to securing a longterm peace in Iraq gives aid and comfort to the enemy.

Here is the similarity to Viet Nam. The enemy became convinced that there were enough cowards and traitors in the US that all they had to do was wait while the Walter Cronkites and John Kerrys acted like cancers to eat away the will of the people.

This encourages the enemy to keep killing. Murtha and his ilk are directly, partly responsible for the continued murder of our troops, Iraqi troops and civilians.

Also radicalizes more people in Iraq. They don't realize that Murtha is just some escaped mental patient. They'll believe what he says when it is replayed on Al Jazeera. Why would he lie to make his country look bad? He must be telling the truth!

as proof of Tbone's assertion!

In his 1985 memoir about the war, Gen. Vo Nguyen Giap wrote that if it weren't for organizations like Kerry's Vietnam Veterans Against the War, Hanoi would have surrendered to the U.S.

How many Giaps are Murtha and him ilk creating?

or one newspaper reporter/editor that even knows that Giap wrote that.

I doubt an newspaper editors read RedState, however! ;>)

I would ask you to make this a seperate post. RedState can get behind this woman and help her make a real difference.

Murtha has devolved from DNC hack to defeatocrat to open poltroon.

His lying, anti-American swill needs to be shown the door.

He is beatable.

10 people who don't read blogs --- that's the vast majority of folks out there.

People of reasonable sensibilities, when confronted with the plaudits and congratulations of the media and other left-wing groups that celebrate them in print, are frequently tempted to say and do increasingly offensive things so as to please their new suitors.  Anthony Kennedy's jurisprudence comes to mind, and in the most egregious example of all Cindy Sheehan goes from grieving mother to dictator-hugging, frothing at the mouth lunatic in a few months flat.  Murtha was never hawkish, though he does have an admirable record on veterans' affairs.  That said, he rarely gave anyone cause for alarm until his celebrated 'awakening' that saw him calling for precipitous withdrawal.  Since then the company and back-patting of countless left-wing groups have sped his degeneration from reasonable man into contemptible wingnut.  

is is possible the allegation are, like, true?

It seems to me when you put tens of thousands of people in a stressful situation (and war is about as stressful a situation as one can imagine) you're going to occassionally have atrocities. I doubt any war in history as large in scale as our current struggle has managed to completely avoid unjustified killing.

Like anybody I hope the allegations are baseless. The only details I've seen yet about this were from NBC's report by Jim Mikleshevski (sp?). I don't think he's generally considered a hack, and his story was sober-toned and serious, and mentioned that Pentagon sources are saying this could be "ugly".

It seems to me the first thing to think about is not whether or not Murtha's words may hinder our cause, but rather, are his words true?

that the statement of a US Congressman about these civilian deaths is possibly more radicalising than the deaths themselves?

Do you think people in Iraq don't get angry about collateral damage until John Murtha tells them to?

The level of vitriol on this thread is stunning, especially for a site which prides itself as being above personal attacks.

on veteran affairs is his support for better pay and benefits.

he has, since arriving in congress, consistently undermined the military, voted against funding of weapons systems, and even against Gulf War I...a "hawk" NOT!

A patriot? NOT!

spare us your outrage!

to every one else who has posted in this thread.

He's accusing the marines of purposely killing the civilians. That is not collateral damage.

they could be true or not. There is a proper military procedure for investigating them and if enough evidence suggests a crime them charges will be filed and the Marines involved will receive courts martial.

But Murtha has no business going on TV and prejudging the outcome of the investigation. IANAL, lest of all a JAG, but he may well have set the stage for appeal in the event of trial and conviction. A ranking member of the House of Representatives prjudiced the outcome of the investigation in the press.

And aside from that, he has no d*mn business making that assertion in any event, even if these Marines are charged. If they are convicted then and only then it be permissible for him to condemn them; even in the military the prsumption of innocence is supposed to apply.

And he has given more ammunition to America's enemies, and probalby even some fo our erstwhile friends, for propoganda.

Is it possible that Murtha is, like, all knowing? Why do we even have a military justice system? We can just give Murtha the job of judge, jury, and executioner.

And what exactly is the purpose of his spouting off about intentional killings of civilians to the media? I mean besides the obvious attempt to score political points, John Kerry style. I guess at least he didn't compare them to Gengis Kahn.

here

Murtha should keep his big mouth shut but I'd wait until the facts are in to actually claim that he's wrong.

Sheehan.  Don't even bother with the grieving mother BS with regard to Cindy Sheehan.  She was an unknown antiwar activist BEFORE Casey enlisted the first time.  His death simply provided her a platform to get national attention.  You think the bitch is a grieving mother?  Why does her son's grave still not have a marker?  After all, the VA provides money for a grave marker.

Murtha.  You note that Murtha has a good record on "veterans affairs".  WooHoo.  Jack Murtha is put up as a "hawk", when in fact he has yet to find a military action he could support where men are at risk and bullets are fired.  Murtha has a LONG record of advocating positions that can only be looked on as cowardly.  As soon as shots are fired, he declares that we've been beaten, can spend no more blood, shouldn't have gone in in the first place and we need to pull out.  NOW.

Sheehan and Murtha are two peas in a pod.  They are not people of "good will", they are media whores who will use any excuse to promote long held agendas.  They are pathetic.  They are cowards.  In times where people understood we are at war, they would be stoned.  With rocks.

Always Faithful.

the Marines will take care of it.  They don't need Jack Murtha's help.

Murtha is a worn out piece of crap who manages to get relected every two years.  He is no "hawk", nor is he a friend of the military or the Marine Corps - previous service notwithstanding.

Murtha is your poster boy Democrat former military guy.  Just like Kerry.  Kerry committed treason in 1971 and was never publically charged.  He is a stain on the country.  Murtha is no better.

And believe me, as a Marine Corps parent, you have no idea the kind of vitriol I'm capable of, verbal and physical, when it comes to people like Kerry and Murtha.

pardon my French.

When you say this:

And aside from that, he has no d*mn business making that assertion in any event, even if these Marines are charged. If they are convicted then and only then it be permissible for him to condemn them; even in the military the prsumption of innocence is supposed to apply.

You, I, Murtha, or the man on the street can make any allegations we want, and indeed may well be morally obliged to do so, if we deem an evil sufficiently grave that justice demands said evil be brought into the light of day. The fact that the alleged wrong-doing involved military personnel is of no relevance whatsoever.

We all want victory. But we ought not to want it at any cost. I'd agree with any critique of Murtha if he's spreading falsehoods. but if what he's saying is true, I reckon the demands of his conscience are justified in making him take the course of action he's taken. To me, the veracity of his allegations are what's at stake. We all ought to be very careful in publicly airing a charge (yes, especially so when it involves our soldiers in a foreign war). But if Murtha has been careful, and he's correct, he's done the right thing in my view. The fact that I disagree with his position vis a vis the war is, needless to say, the most irrelevant item of all.

By the way, there's nothing about the judicial presumption of innocence that prevents any of us from making an accusation ourselves, or loudly shouting from the rooftops about how heartily we agree with an accusation made by the government.

crock.

"We all want victory." Hoss puckey.

" But we ought not to want it at any cost." News flash, bud, winning is binary and winning ugly counts just as much as any other win.

but if what he's saying is true, I reckon the demands of his conscience are justified in making him take the course of action he's taken.

The OLD "seriousness of the charge" defense...

Murtha has consistently supported increases in pay and otherwise.  To say that does not detract one bit from my criticism of him as anything but a hawk.  

have the right to be fools or idiots does not make idiocy correct.

What's your reaction if the Governor of North Carolina goes on national TV tomorrow and says that the Duke students are guilty of rape and should be convicted? {Hint: the answer is not he has that right.}

Frankly, I just don't care what his record is on veterans affairs.  Any more than I care about John Kerry's.

Murtha is a defense porker, not a defense hawk. He likes procurement, he likes benefits, and he never met a war he didn't want to lose.

They haven't touched the story since March, and the article in March basically just reruns the Time Magazine Article.

Sooo ... why haven't all those Iraqi humanitarian groups gone to Al Jazeera ... ?

The story was given to Time Magazine by Bobby Gnosh, who got a video tape from a "student" journalist. He's also the guy that filed the original charges with our military.

Here's the link to an interview he had with Peter Marshall, and no, it's NOT to my blog: http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2006/s1598457.htm

The original "massacre" seemed to have happened last August ... the story broke in March.

Be reasonable, it takes time to cobble up this kind of thing :-)

it hardly seems conclusive. No doubt an investigation will turn up the truth...a lot sooner than Murtha will...or, for that matter, than we will here!

Benedict Aronld, is not above criticism, despite his valued past service.

His actions are far worse than those of the young Marines IF they are found guilty.

And applauded by the chorus, no less.  

that ends-justify-the-means is alive and well. Heck, seems like it's practically synonymous with patriotism these days.

"you can always tell a Marine but you can't tell them much" :-)

But for Marines, and indeed for all of our servicemen and women, soldiers, sailors, Marines, airmen, and Coast Guardsmen especially in this day of all volunteer forces, Duty Honor Country is not just some slogan or bumper sticker.

Clearly something that the "Honorable" John Murtha has lost sight of.

While I have never been a Marine, I fully understand what he is saying. Do you? Apparently not.

IF the marines are found to have committed the crimes described, they will be punished, and will serve time in prison.

Their actions, if they INDEED did massacre these villagers, happened in the heat of battle, under fire, in a volatile and hostile environment.

Murtha, on the other hand, condemns them out of hand, in full view of the world, without ANY proof having yet been brought forth.

The marines, IF they committed the crimes, have brought discredit to themselves and their country.

MURTHA does the same, every day in congress!

by the Corps.  They will not sweep this under a rug - the Marine Corps is NOT Congress, they are an institution built on honor.  Murtha has forgotten that, if he ever learned it.  Honor is concept that is foreign to most of the Congress.

If those Marines are found to have committed a crime they WILL be court martialed.  If found guilty they WILL be summarily punished.  And they will be used as examples by SNCO's for generations of Marines to come, examples of what not to do.  Examples of men who have dishonored the Corps.  They will pay an incredible price.

All that said, these are young men in the fog of combat who may have done the wrong thing.  If they broke the law, they should and they will be punished.

Jack Murtha's comments, not just these but his consistent comments over the last couple of years have been a planned and measured effort to undermine the US military and the war effort.  In time of war, which in case you hadn't noticed we are in, that is a far worse transgression, especially for a sitting member of Congress.

didn't just bring "discredit to themselves and their country." They KILLED civilians.

To state that Murtha's (at worst) unfounded smears are "far worse" than deliberately killing civilians is indefensible rhetorical excess.

but you said it better!

Murtha has already decided. They are entitled to the presumption of innocence, they didn't give that up by joining the service.

...waiting for the verdict to come in before running his big mouth?

Murtha has absolutely zero reason to be commenting on this until this is accusation is proven. He's a United States Congressman for F*^$# sake, Act like one!!!  

unfounded comments about unproven charges against US military personnel in time of war, and the idea that you can't seem to understand that he is a member of the government of the US while doing so is beyond belief.

If those Marines killed civilians in violation of their RoE, they will be punished.

Murtha should be expelled from Congress and the human race for running his mouth.

If you can't understand that the Corps will investigate and will not sweep this under a rug, then you need to volunteer for Murtha's campaign.  I am constrained from commenting by my inadequate knowledge of the English language and the RS posting rules.  My opinion, however, is that if you can't understand that what Jack Murtha as said is far, far beyond the pale, you are beyond reasoning or comprehension.

a) CongressCritters are infallible;

b) cannot get TV and microphone time by saying trite cr*p like "let's let the investigation proceed before anyone makes judgements."

You can talk 'till your mouth doesn't work.

Marines just won't pay attention unless you've got an Eagle, Globe and Anchor on your collar and rockers on your sleeve.  (Ignoring Officers is well honed skill all Marines learn before their first deployment.  NOBODY messes with a 1stSgt and lives to tell about it.)

:>)

(1) The actions being compared aren't remotely equivalent. Murtha's (at worst) unfounded smear isn't in the same ballpark as (at worst) deliberately killing civilians.

(2) The killings themselves harm the war effort and our standing in Iraq to a much greater degree than what Murtha or anyone else says about them.

Are these points really, truly, controversial here? Then the ditch is wider than I ever imagined.

 we've had this "discussion" before :-)

is that Murtha is proven guilty, he said it on the air.

The Marines are "under investigation" on allegations.

Big difference.

Did you notice that they were included in the original comparison? The actions being compared were Murtha's remarks and the killings by the Marines, IF guilty.

they, even if guilty, arguably felt that what they did was furthering the accomplishment of their mission.

What Murtha is doing,inarguably,is giving aid and comfort to the enemy.

I saw that. But you seem to be insistent on defending Murtha's actions in prejudging the situation.

I doubt you would stand for the Governor of NC declaring on "Good Morning America" that the Duke students raped that woman snd should go to jail. The civil libertarians would be all over him, and rightfully so. Why are the Marines not entitled to the same from this crowd?

1. Murtha making unfounded comments about US military personnel in war time is far worse than the "crime", if any.  There is an ongoing investigation.  Let it proceed.  If the Marines killed civilians, I would serve on the court martial board and find them guilty.  
   
   
2. Murtha is fanning the flames of accusation for reasons only political.  Please recall the screaming about a Marine who "murdered" a wounded insurgent last year.  It was caught on tape.  A complete investigation found that the Marine acted correctly.  That may or may not happen here, but let the Corps complete their investigation.
   
   
3. Murtha's comments do much more harm than the deaths of those civilians.  And don't try to say I am excusing those deaths, I'm not.  But, in the scope of the war zone it's just not that big of a deal unless our politicians, like Murtha, make it a big deal.  If killing civilians were a big deal, AQ and the terrorists in Iraq would have been hunted down by Iraqi civilians and skinned alive.  They kill civilians by the hundreds and thousands as their battle plan.

Murtha's actions are right up there with John Kerry committing treason in 1971 by going to Paris while a US Naval reserve officer.  Kerry's treason was allowed to slide and I'm sure that Murtha's will too.

ignoring you...   :>)

From that link:

UNIDENTIFIED SURVIVOR, (TRANSLATION): I couldn't see their faces very well, only their guns sticking into the doorway. I watched them shoot my grandfather, first in the chest and then in the head. Then they killed my granny.

I don't care how you translate "Iraqi", it is never going to come out saying... "They killed my granny."

.

have nothing to do with judging their actions relative to Murtha's, although it should probably make you stop and think if they face the prospect of serious jail time and no one has suggested Murtha should be charged.

What he said may well be beyond the pale. I wouldn't have said it.

It's not remotely comparable to, let alone far worse than, the deliberately killing of civilians. That's what these Marines, IF guilty, did.  

are beyond the pale, each in different ways

Why don't you read what was said, instead of what you think should have been said or what you assume I meant.

Would you say that if the Gov of NC did that it would be worse than if I deliberately killed some civilians?

Why do you think I'm defending what Murtha said? I'm protesting the silly assertion that it's somehow worse than the actions the Marines are ACCUSED of committing.

I agree that Murtha is bone-headed and shouldn't be commenting about something this inflammatory until the allegations are thoroughly investigated.  It's stupid and counterproductive.

It is not, however, treason, or even a crime and it certainly isn't murder.

IF the Marines are guilty, as potentially alleged, then they willfully took life.  That is under any circumstances the greater crime.  Now, I'll note that you give credit to the fact that if they are guilty, they will be punished.  But at the same time, you argue that Murtha has committed a more heinous act than the Marines, even if found guilty?

I'm finding this very hard to fathom and I have a great deal of respect for many of the perspectives and commentors here.

its not the nature of the evidence that is important, it is the seriousness of the charge!

take a break, come back, and read what you have written.

Because frankly it's pretty horrible stuff, and I don't think you really mean it. I think you're upset, and angry, and I get that.

But you're going way overboard here.

Again, for the record, since you and jsteele seem incapable of understanding this, I am quite aware the investigation is ongoing, I'm not pre-judging anyone, and I don't think Murtha should have said what he did.

Your comparison of his words as being a greater crime than the killing of civilians, if that occured, was and is wrong, from a legal, ethical, and practical standpoint.  

I meant, than the deliberate killing of civilians, in the last line. Clearly civilians were killed, it's the circumstances surrounding it that are controversial.

for NO apparent reason, lets light this fire up!

Would you agree or disagree that the treasonous testimony that John Kerry gave before congress in 1971 aided and abetted the enemy in time of war? Keep this in mind when answering!

Many of us see the actions and statements of Murtha as the same d*mn thing! Worse still, when Kerry did it, he was a private citizen, NOT a congressman and therefore a tacit voice of the US Government!

Remember the part that said the Corps was investigating what actually happened? Is there some special insight you share with Mad Jack that allows you to see what actually occured? So far, no one really knows how those civilians died. It may well have been an IED or it may have been accidental or even (God forbid) deliberate.

How about we assume NOTHING and keep our traps shut until the Marines figure out what happened. That is obviously too much to ask of Mad Jack. How about you, Skaffen?

if guilty, were "furthering the accomplishment of their mission"?

of overblown hooey here.

Killing civilians in wartime under a lot circumstances is not a moral, legal, ethical or practical problem. Always a tragedy, to be sure, but there the certainty ends.

You really need to get a grip on yourself before chasitising others about being overboard.

Though I must say that I find it instructive to note the uncritical manner in which you've treated the allegations. Sort of "of course they killed them, that's what Marines do, they murder civilians."

Another one who didn't bother to read what I actually wrote. Easier to just assume you know what I mean, I guess.

The comparison presented was between what Murtha said and what the Marines are ACCUSED of doing. That was the comparison I addressed.

What the Marines are accused of doing is deliberately killing civilians. That's not collateral damage.

I didn't comment AT ALL on the validity of the allegations, since it's beside the point of the comparison. Save your cheap smears.

Look, if worms had machine guns birds wouldn't mess with them. That's hardly the point, though is it?

It's possible they were killed by 3 headed space aliens from mars. It's all speculation until an investigation is comleted. Murtha has no more insight into what happened than you or I. We've all an obligation to wait for some facts to come out before we open our cake holes and say incendiary statements that may likely be false as not.

The first thing to think is not wether Murtha's words are true, but how can he say such things until someone knows suomething concrete?

get smarmy with Streiff...I like fireworks!

You, I, Murtha, or the man on the street can make any allegations we want, and indeed may well be morally obliged to do so

I am morally obligated to call a press conference and speculate in front of them in a way that damages the country's interests and an ongoing war effort? I suppose that's the only "patriotic" thing to do.

if he's spreading falsehoods. but if what he's saying is true

He's not in the position to know one way or the other. That makes him wrong.

We all ought to be very careful in publicly airing a charge

Unless your name is Murtha or Kerry or Durbin or Kennedy, then any reckless charge just goes to show how patriotic you are. Even if they are false. Especially if they are made in front of TV cameras.

to Vietnam for some reason, do you think that Kerry's testimony was a worse crime than the actual atrocities committed by our troops?

Even if the Marines here are guilty of everything they are accused of I certainly wouldn't equate it to My Lai or anything, but you get the idea.

I don't have a problem with people being upset at what Kerry or Murtha said. I have a problem with it being characterized as worse than the deliberate killing of civilians. Don't you?

I have read your comments and you would do well to do also.

No one but Murtha and you have accused the Marines of anything. Period. You have just mindlessly parrotted a, to date, unfounded allegation and it demonstrates very clearly your mindset on the military. Like, for instance, way back when during the Sgrena episode when you troll rated a certain diary for publish the pictures of the actual auto that demonstrated there were only a few shots. Then, as now, you just couldn't handle the concept that the stories might be wrong. But I digress.

As to smears, it seems to me that a handful of young Marines, doing a job a lot of Americans won't do, are being smeared by people who really aren't fit to carry their jocks.

means those.

But you need to learn the rules. You can accuse troops of anything because we all know they are just stupid goons who would be working at Taco Bell otherwise. And besides, the facts don't matter it is the seriousness of the allegation that merits consideration.

It's somewhere in the middle

The actions of the Marines, whether found out to be just or not, have probably had repercussions on the ground.  Considering that outside the US, their actions will probably without a doubt be seen as unjust, I'm sure their actions have caused harm to others in uniform on the ground.

Murtha's statements, while only rhetoric, long term will have the same effect.

They will embolden our enemy, and in that case, cost US /Coalition loves.

Are they equal in effect?...I'd say yes, over a period of time.

The real crime though is the continued actions of our leaders, opening their freaking mouths, for political gain, and suffering no repercussions themselves.

There ought to be a law...

knowing it is your wit against a simple creature, but it is still gratifying when the prey falls in!

Factually inaccurate and logically incoherent!

Thanks for playing...

but what he is doing is a thousand times worse than what those Marines did, IF they willfully murdered the civilians.

The Marines will be investigated.  If found guilty the Marines will rightfully be punished.  As they should be.

Jack Murtha can make unfounded accusations agaisnt the US military, as can Dick Durbin and any number of irresponsible Democrats in Congress, and they will be given a pass.  Because the people handing out passes are clueless.

to the woodshed!

Unless its me, of course!

It's funny because we all know that there were no actual atrocities committed in Vietnam!

Or something.

I stand by what I said.  I will add that I think Murtha is at the very least a doddering old fool and at worst, a traitor.  I could, and would be willing to make the case, that his actions over the last two years have consistently given aid and comfort to the enemy.

Let me be clear.  Perfectly clear.  What Jack Murtha has done, as a member of Congress, is far worse than anything those Marines might have done.  The only difference is that they will be investigated and if found guilty will rightfully be punished.

Murtha's current work MAY not be treason but what he is doing is a thousand times worse than what those Marines did, IF they willfully murdered the civilians.

Cue more cheers from the chorus?

Will any conservatives here condemn this statement?

Or can we expect more personal attacks on me for taking offense to this egregious rhetoric?

of the illegal immigrant Regiment.   :>)

Sorry, even I lighten up once in a while.

just ask John McCain, he can tell you first hand!

Terrible things happen in war. The difference between YOU and I is that I recognize the the US military does NOT systematically engage in murder, and  does NOT condone those atrocities that are commonplace, that ARE condoned, that ARE part and parcel of the enemies that we fight!

You can HAVE your BlameAmericaFirst™ mentality, but don't bring it around here, because WE will defend the US military from your kind!

recognize the the US military does NOT systematically engage in murder, and  does NOT condone those atrocities that are commonplace, that ARE condoned, that ARE part and parcel of the enemies that we fight!

What exactly do you think my views on the military are, and what are you basing your conclusions on? When have we discussed this?

If people would restrict themselves to discussing what was actually said instead of interpreting everything through the twisted view of eeeeeevil liberals that they hold dear inside their head, these conversations would accomplish much more.

1. Comparing this to Vietnam.  The enemy, namely certain Democrats and the MSM, have been working up a Vietnam comparison since Day 0.  So let's just go ahead and make the comparison.
   
   
2. Actual atrocities v. Kerry's testimony.  Please provide just a shred of evidence that future Senator Kerry did not lie about EVERYTHING he testified to in 1971.  If you have no evidence that the Chain of Command KNEW about war crimes and encouraged said crimes, then understand that the future Senator committed perjury and has never backed down from his lies.  
   
   
3. Why wouldn't you equate it to MyLai?  Is there a baseline number of dead civilians before we should care?  
   
   
4. John Murtha and John Kerry have, in a measured and well thought out way, accused members of the US military of war crimes.  They have both done so with no basis in fact.  There is still an on-going investigation of the latest incident.  There should be no comments until the investigation is complete.  

Murtha and Kerry have acted for political and personal gain at the expense of honorable men who are unable to defend themselves.  Their actions are a thousand times worse, a thousand times more dishonorable, than the murder of 15 civilians in a war.  As I've said many times, the difference is that the Marines are being investigated and if found guilty they will be rightfully punished.  Murtha and Kerry get a pass because the people who hand out passes are fools.

 You made your case, and you clearly aren't getting through. Probably time to move on - you don't have to admit defeat, just let the debate stand where it is and readers will judge for themselves. Continued emotional "snark"-iness from either side isn't going to do a lot to further either viewpoint from here on out, is it?

 If it makes you feel better, I don't find it difficult to know how I'd judge the hypothetical  pre-meditated murder of 10-15 innocent civilians compared with the hypothetical act of treason - each would presumably result in a capital trial, and each should result in the death penalty if found guilty.

 Continued speculation on whether the alleged murder and alleged treason are in fact true, while potentially interesting, at this point are rather fruitless efforts until more information is made public and/or investigations/trials are conducted...

You, I, Murtha, or the man on the street can make any allegations we want...

I would have thought you'd be smart enough to recognize the difference between your or my opinion and the opinion of a sitting member of Congress.  You and I can shout crap from the housetops because nobody cares.  We, at least me, are not members of the US government.  We don't influence policy.

When a Member of Congress, like Murtha, decides he wants to speak out a subject the press shows up and pretends he knows what he's talking about and that his opinion is important (unlike yours and mine).

Murtha, like it or not, is a representative of the government of the US.  He has a responsibility to act responsibly.  There is an on-going investigation into the charge.  This is not the first time a charge like this has been made, none have ever been validated.  I don't know what happened, but I do know that the Corps will get to the bottom of the situation and that their final report will be made public.  If they find that the Marines acted criminally, those Marines will be charged and if found guilty, will be punished.  

Murtha can wait until the investigation is finished if he's interested in justice.  But he's about political and personal promotion, not justice.  Especially where members of the US military are involved.

...may well be morally obliged to do so, if we deem an evil sufficiently grave that justice demands...

So, please link to your information that gives rise to your moral outrage, prior to the completion of the investigation.  You, I, and certainly Jack Murtha have NO RIGHT to moral outrage until the investigation is OVER.

You want to talk about evil and justice and you are just as ignorant about what happened as is Jack Murtha.  Save your outrage.

The fact that the alleged wrong-doing involved military personnel is of no relevance whatsoever.

EXCUSE ME!  In case you missed it, we are at war.  The fact that this "alleged wrong-doing" involved military personnel is PRECISELY relevant.  That's the whole point.  If these were private contractors, I wouldn't much care what the doddering old fool said.  BUT: a) We are at war; b) he is making unfounded accusations against our military personnel; c) WHILE the investigation is on-going.

And, by-the-way, he is a government official and some people on foreign shores may think his opinion counts.

We all want victory. But we ought not to want it at any cost.  

Streif commented on this.  I would just add that losing ALWAYS has a greater cost than winning.  Just ask the Vietnamese we abandoned after John Kerry's performance.  Or the Cambodians.  Or any of the Africans no body gives a rip about.  If you actually believe that statement, you are a fool of the first order.  You're probably conflicted that we dropped two atomic devices on Japanese cities.

And, by-the-way, Murtha is on record as saying we have already lost in Iraq.  Take your "We all want victory" song someplace else.  That does not reflect the public statments of most of the leadership of the Democratic Party.

I reckon the demands of his conscience are justified in making him take the course of action he's taken.

So, you're good with public officials making charges against people while an active investigation is on-going?  We're dealing with an organization that has a stellar reputation for investigation of internal charges, and the report will be made public.  Murtha is so overwrought that he can't wait a couple of weeks for the report?  

Murtha's is an act of raw political and personal promotion at the expense of young men who cannot defend themselves.  He is a patheic old fool.

But if Murtha has been careful, and he's correct, he's done the right thing in my view.

I come back to my question: So, you're good with public officials making charges against people while an active investigation is on-going?  If he's interested in justice he could wait a couple of weeks.  John Murtha doesn't give a rip about justice, where our military is concerned, espeically when he can make some cheap political points.

...there's nothing about the judicial presumption of innocence that prevents any of us from making an accusation ourselves...

OK, you're not an attorney.  And you're not real well versed in the Constitution.

As a matter of fact, the presumption of innocence is exactly what keeps me from taking out an ad in your local newspaper telling your neighbors that I "heard" you are a child molestor.  (NOTE: I AM NOT ACCUSING YOU, I AM MAKING A POINT)  Were I