Redstate

Except for those that are otherwise normal people looking to help their children and just end up being suckers.

They would get fleeced something awful...

"Don't have any money?  Well, I guess you'd better work within the public-funded system to make it better."

I suggest that school vouchers would make it better.  

"If you have a reasonable complaint about teaching something that absolutely conflicts with your values, you have the choice of (a) home school (I know, a very pricey option, but it's there), or (b) get involved with the school, let them know your concerns, and work with them to reach a compromise."

a) I home school. b) Did you go to public schools?  I did.  Good luck on this option.

"As for values, you teach those at home, or you send your kid to Friday, Saturday, or Sunday school, and you leave the public school system concentrate on the basics."

Good point.  I agree about the values but the public school can't teach the basic well for reasons you eloquently outline.

"Excuse me?"

You're telling me that you pay all that money and still are allowing the Government to dictate what the curriculum is?  Maybe it's the state you live in????

"Because you want to spend tax money to do it.  The only difference between taxes and outright theft is that, in theory at least, I get SOME say in how MY money gets spent."

Yes and what I'm suggesting is that voters agree that parents know what is best for their children instead of trying to force some sort of political will to determine what, how, and where children are taught.  I'm not trying to get rid of your say I just want you to agree with me ;)

"I don't believe (and never stated) that the children of meth users should be summarily kicked out of school."

Sorry I made the claim.  It was the impression I got when you talked about how important parental involvement was and also that you should kick out the 2%.

"In point of fact, I think that should be one of the primary focii of a good education system: find the best and brightest and give them extra opportunities to become better and brighter."

This could be accomplished by having private schools that allow only the best in.  This of course is not available to any but the elite currently.

"Depends on what you call trash, I guess."

Even with vouchers you don't have to let them in your private school.  I'm not suggesting that.

"Don't like being treated like a kid?  Pay your own way!"

I pay my taxes and I will when I'm a senior without any kids.  I want to choose how money set aside for my children is spent.  Just like I want control over my money "set aside" for retirement.  I favor vouchers and privatization of SS.  There I said it I want more control over the money intended for me and my children that is taken from my pay check and property taxes.

Oh by the way can you tell me how to do the cool boxy thing for quotes?

Thanks for listing some honest concerns.  As a big backer of school choice, let me respond to some of them.

"For instance, I don't want ANY of my money spent at a Muslim school unless there's some fairly strong guarantees that they won't be teaching hatred of Jews, ownership of women, and second-class citizenship for people who "don't agree with our views"."

"So now, in exchange for government vouchers, suddenly the private schools have the same buttinskies and "oversight" going on that's managed to ravage the public system."

Specifically, these two concerns.  Already private schools have to be accredited by the state.  That accredidation is a good thing and should be kept.  It would deal with both of these concerns.  But that does not mean that every private school would have to follow the myriad of public bureaucratic rules, which is a good thing.

Second, let me recount the main benefit of school choice.  In every market, competition forces businesses to become more consumer friendly and responsive.  Monopolies do not have to do so unless they are in danger of losing their monopoly.  If schools had to compete for students (and further if principles and others had a chance of losing their jobs if they failed), the competition would improve education in both the private and public schools.  Some schools would fail, just like businesses.  But some schools already fail, they just never close down.  With a system of school choice, students would desert failing schools and they would have to close down or re-invent themselves.

I agree that the money spent on education should not be looked at as "my" money.  But I want to know how we can most efficiently spend the $7000 per student that public schools spend.  A universal choice system would have better education results for the same cost.  That is why I support school choice.

...ain't gonna make us no more smart...

As I recall, nap time got awfully chilly with those little blankets they issued.  I think the blanket budge should at least be doubled.

was in response to this.

" Then there's the matter of fraud; how long do you think it will take before some innner-city entrepreneur opens a private school inside a Mailboxes Etc, with the primary attraction of kicking back part of the government voucher money back to the so-called "parents" of thier so-called "students"? Five grand a year will buy a LOT of sudafed and drain cleaner. "

These children would not be bringing anyone down in this supposed school.

"The meth users kids probably would not get a good education anyway for the reasons you mentioned above so, so what if they abuse the system.  The only ones they hurt are their own children (which you want to kick out anyway)."

As was posted by the OP, one of the greatest strengths of Private Schools is the ability to easily expel those who obviously don't want to be there.

These students don't just hurt their own educations, they hurt Every student's education.  Dump them and let them go get their GEDs (if they have even That much discipline) and let the rest of America go about getting smarter.

Every garden has weeds.  Weeds harm the garden.  Remove the weeds and improve the garden.

What if I'm a poor Muslim?  Where do my kids go?  Is my only choices public schools or Catholic schools both of which will not teach the values I hold?

As always happens in a capitalist society, you are free to spend YOUR money on YOUR choices.  Once you start spending MY money on public projects, there'd better be some controls.  Don't expect to spend MY money on teaching dhimitude to little kids.  Don't have any money?  Well, I guess you'd better work within the public-funded system to make it better.

If you have a reasonable complaint about teaching something that absolutely conflicts with your values, you have the choice of (a) home school (I know, a very pricey option, but it's there), or (b) get involved with the school, let them know your concerns, and work with them to reach a compromise.  Public schools these days are so gunshy of any complaint that you could probably get most of them to stop teaching the letter "e" if you claimed that it was anti-muslim.  

The message I get is you only deserve a good education if you can afford it or think and believe like me.

ACtually, my position is that the public schools should be providing a "good" education; we should fix the problems in the public schools instead of appropriating the private schools.  If you want a "great", or just "better" education for your kids and can't find a private school you can afford, I guess you're in the same boat as me (I want a nicer house than the one I have but I don't have the money).  So in the situation you described, you put them in the public school while you try to earn enough money to send them to a private school.  As for values, you teach those at home, or you send your kid to Friday, Saturday, or Sunday school, and you leave the public school system concentrate on the basics.  

Government doesn't choose the curriculum that your children learn.

Excuse me?

 Why should they decide mine for me just because I don't have enough money or belong to a religion with a great education system that will subsidize me?  

Because you want to spend tax money to do it.  The only difference between taxes and outright theft is that, in theory at least, I get SOME say in how MY money gets spent.

(By the way, if there's a school in your area that teaches your "values" but will turn it's back on a child because Mom and Dad can't foot the long green in full, you might want to reconsider those values.)

The meth users kids probably would not get a good education anyway for the reasons you mentioned above so, so what if they abuse the system.  The only ones they hurt are their own children (which you want to kick out anyway).

I don't beleive (and never stated) that the children of meth users should be summarily kicked out of school.  My concern about Mailboxes Etc Jr. High ("Home of the Sorters!")was that I don't want to create yet another opportunity for people with chonically bad decision-making skills to abuse, neglect, and exploit thier own kids.  What I said was, kids who prevent OTHER kids from learning, should be kicked out of school.  How fair is it for the rest of the class if Little Johnny decides that terrorizing the new math teacher is more fun than algebra (and beleive me, I've been through that).  

Your diary seems elitist to me.

I'm very gratified that you felt my post was elitist.  In point of fact, I think that should be one of the primary focii of a good education system: find the best and brightest and give them extra opportunities to become better and brighter.  It astounds me that no one seems to have a problemd that that's EXACTLY what's done in the Phys Ed department, but if a math or science teacher does it we're all up in arms.

I heard a similar argument from a co-worker that joined the Catholic Church to get a tuition break.  She said, "I don't want school vouchers because that would let all the trash in.".  I thought at first that perhaps this was just her point of view but now I'm a little disturbed.

Depends on what you call trash, I guess.  How many people out there have Cable TV but think that they should get vouchers to send thier kids to private schools?  Tom Paine said "that which comes too easily tends to be valued lightly", and I think that's exactly what's happened to education in this country.  Make vouchers available to parents who don't value education and all you've done is provide six hours a day of free PRIVATE day care.

The senior couple down the street helps pay for food stamps for the disabled but they don't force them to eat only carrots and peas for every meal

Personally, I see that as a failing in the system.  IMHO, if the government is paying for your food, shelter, and clothing, they have a perfect right to tell you what to eat, what to wear, and where to live.  The fact that you're on the dole proves that you're not capable of making intelligent decisions for yourself (not that having some GS9 make them for you is any guarantee that they'll be better).  Don't like being treated like a kid?  Pay your own way!

What if I'm a poor Muslim?  Where do my kids go?  Is my only choices public schools or Catholic schools both of which will not teach the values I hold?  I think any voucher system has to be free of strings or else how could it even go to any religious school?

The meth users kids probably would not get a good education anyway for the reasons you mentioned above so, so what if they abuse the system.  The only ones they hurt are their own children (which you want to kick out anyway).  Your diary seems elitist to me.

The message I get is you only deserve a good education if you can afford it or think and believe like me.

Government doesn't choose the curriculum that your children learn.  Why should they decide mine for me just because I don't have enough money or belong to a religion with a great education system that will subsidize me?  (and I do think Catholic schools are good)

I'm sure you don't agree with the entire sex education curriculum across the nation's public schools but you feel no compunction making my children sit through those classes.

I heard a similar argument from a co-worker that joined the Catholic Church to get a tuition break.  She said, "I don't want school vouchers because that would let all the trash in.".  I thought at first that perhaps this was just her point of view but now I'm a little disturbed.  

That is still the beauty of private schools.  If a student doesn't work there they can be removed.  I think a voucher system would have to come with guarantees that it would not interfere with the private schools operation.

I say let parents decided how their own children are taught.

The senior couple down the street helps pay for food stamps for the disabled but they don't force them to eat only carrots and peas for every meal.

Great post and I appreciate your points and especially your concern for how it would affect private schools but I respectfully disagree.

What about all those parents that should be getting ripped off by private education scams now? Or is money only worth stealing if it's public? What about people who get ripped off by mechanics and roofers? Do we need government run businesses to provide those services? Should the government provide all it's own services and supplies, so it doesn't get ripped off by fraudulent businesses?

I don't think school vouchers have to get rid of that ability.

I said in above post

"I think a voucher system would have to come with guarantees that it would not interfere with the private schools operation.

"

So yes I agree with both of you on this.

Just because scams exist in the private sector is no reason to excuse pouring public money down a rathole without some sort of accountability.

A true, pure voucher system would be far more accountable than the system we have in place now. That's because the schools themselves would be accountable to their customers, the latter being free to vote with their feet.

Why would anyone trust the state to insure accountability? This seems odd, given its dismal record thusfar.

Well, it is possible, of course, that the influx of children could harm private schooling.  It is possible that the government could over-reach into private schooling and the voters would be unable to stop them.  It is possible that some crack addict will use their voucher money to buy dope and ignore their kids.  It is possible that we could have a radical Muslim school pop up and preach jihad.

But it is certain that most children today are not learning as much as they could and should.  It is certain that many of them are dropping out without the minimum skills needed to survive and obtain employment.  It is certain that many of them are shuffled through schools to obtain a diploma with no accompanying education.  It is certain that many children are trapped in violent and dangerous environments and their parents have no legal recourse for them.  It is certain that untold millions, and probably billions, of dollars are misappropriated, stolen, wasted, and lost in the current method of school funding.

I'm willing to risk some possible problems, and address them if they arise than continue this current path that destroys thousands, if not millions, of kids each and every year.

And I'm both a stockholder in the education of all American children and a stakeholder in the education of two of my own.  And by the way, the stakeholders are obviously the ones who should have the most say in the process.  Although the stockholders have an interest in an educated public, their interest is substantially less than the parent who is trying to educate and protect their own child.

Give me tax credits.  (Thanks Cato.)

I agree that government should not do anything where it would just be another competitor, e.g., making things for its use that are available in the market or doing its own construction.  That said, the things that government does itself are much less susceptible to fraud and theft than the things it has others do are.

Governments have elaborate rules for how money is spent and who can spend it, and they are easy to enforce so long as the administration wants to enforce them.

But on the contract side,it is another matter.  More often that not, who gets the contract is as much politics as price and responsiveness.  In fact, the subjective evaluation of "responsiveness" is the way that politics usually enters into contract award.  Once the contractor has the work, if he hasn't already, he gets his checkbook out to make political contributions and hires a lobbyist.  Before long, he is politically untouchable, at least for so long as the administration that he's in league with remains in power.

I've seen public employees fired because they stopped off with the grading equipment and paved their driveway or just happened to stop by their house with the government's fuel truck.  I've also seen contractors build and pave and upgrade all sorts of stuff with the labor and material they were raking off public contracts, doing it openly and notoriously and nobody willing to say "boo" to them.

All that said, I still support vouchers and contract schools because anything is better than what we have and where there is fraud, waste, or abuse, a government that wants to has the means to do something about it.  The first thing a new administration should do is audit the prior administration's contracts and put a few people in jail; it would dramatically improve morale and productivity.

In the case of misuse of public money. Is it your contention that there is less fraud and waste in general government spending than in public financed private sector spending? Or that using the private sector yields worse results than performing the same function inside of government? If that's the case, why doesn't the government produce it's own military hardware and clerical supplies? Why doesn't the government build roads and buildings itself instead of hiring it out? The government already spends a lot of money on private sector services. That's a good thing... not a bad thing.

Your concerns about vouchers are well founded, but there are worthwhile policy alternatives. I blog about your post, and the merits of tax credits over vouchers, here.

Andrew J. Coulson

Director, Cato Institute Center For Educational Freedom

Just because scams exist in the private sector is no reason to excuse pouring public money down a rathole without some sort of accountability.  Look at the hue and cry over how some of the Katrina relif cash was being spent.

If someone's getting ripped off in a private school scam right now, it's his/her choice and his/her money, and there ARE laws against theft by swindle.

That theft just gets that much easier, and people are less inclined to check on how someone Else's money is being spent than they are what's coming our of their own bank accounts...

my biggest concern is that once we have them, some rogue court (or SCOTUS)will say this funding puts them under the control of the federal government.  Similar to what has happened to private colleges that accepted public money. VMI, forget about your traditions, you must do what we perceive to be fair.  

I have this same concern about w.'s faith based initiatives.  Could this in the end be nothing more than government having a say in what you do?  Look no further than the Catholic Churches adoption programs in Massachusetts.  

Vouchers are the answer only if they finally get the government out of the classrooms (we need real guarentees), not corrupt the private schools.

Public schools were once a great and noble idea.  Until we took God and values out of public education.

Public schools were once a great and noble idea.

 Not so much so. The great and noble idea was that parents ought to provide their children with an education that prepares them to compete as adults. We messed up when we decided the best way to accomplish this was to create a massive beaurocracy starting at the federal level and extending down to the school, to demand that all parents participate in this system, and to tax everyone to pay for it.

 I agree with your take on the tainted money aspects of public funding. Education is something that public funding was un-necessary for.

 What we should have done is let persons with a passion and with the expertise join together, form competitive educational institutions, and market their services to whatever segment of parents they would like to serve.