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Nancy Pelosi’s War on Catholic Doctrine

Pope Joan II mangles history and theology in one short interview

Pope Joan II speaking ex cathedra declares stupidy the eighth sacramentNot content to be merely Speaker of the House, on Meet the Press last Sunday she elevated herself to Pope.

MR. BROKAW: Senator Obama saying the question of when life begins is above his pay grade, whether you’re looking at it scientifically or theologically. If he were to come to you and say, “Help me out here, Madame Speaker. When does life begin?” what would you tell him?

REP. PELOSI: I would say that as an ardent, practicing Catholic, this is an issue that I have studied for a long time. And what I know is, over the centuries, the doctors of the church have not been able to make that definition. And Senator–St. Augustine said at three months. We don’t know. The point is, is that it shouldn’t have an impact on the woman’s right to choose. Roe v. Wade talks about very clear definitions of when the child–first trimester, certain considerations; second trimester; not so third trimester. There’s very clear distinctions. This isn’t about abortion on demand, it’s about a careful, careful consideration of all factors and–to–that a woman has to make with her doctor and her god. And so I don’t think anybody can tell you when life begins, human life begins. As I say, the Catholic Church for centuries has been discussing this, and there are those who’ve decided…


To call this statement a lie is to simply devalue the very meaning of the word. This is nothing short of dragging Truth through the streets on a hurdle and burning it at the stake. It has prompted at least two Catholic bishops — the normally said Archbishop Wuerl of Washington and the more conservative Archbishop Chaput of Denver, to repudiate her statement..

Washington Archbishop Donald Wuerl, citing the teaching responsibility entrusted to bishops, issued a statement late Monday that read, in part: “Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable.”

Denver Archbishop Charles Chaput and his auxiliary bishop, James Conley, said in a statement posted on the archdiocesan Web site: “Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi is a gifted public servant of strong convictions and many professional skills. Regrettably, knowledge of Catholic history and teaching does not seem to be one of them.”

Abortion “is always gravely evil, and so are the evasions employed to justify it,” the statement continued.

This is one of those rare areas where there is actually no debate. Since the earliest days of the Church abortion has been viewed as an irredeemably evil act. That hasn’t changed. For reasons known only to them, Pelosi, and a lot of other what my colleague Tom Crowe once termed Catholycs, want to support abortion and claim to be Catholic. Maybe they like the outfits or something. I don’t know. But if they can’t have the decency to at least keep their mouth shut while supporting yet another intrinsically evil behavior the least they could do would be refrain from making up Church history and doctrine.

COMMENTS

  • keithcd

    You know, I think the commi-crats truly believe that they can lie without consequence and no one will challenge it. And if they do challenge it, they will have gotten mileage out of it, so no big deal.

    Pathetic

  • Strelnikov

    No better demonstration of the term ‘oxymoron’ (with an emphasis on the last 5 letters of the word) is the term “Catholic Democrat”, and there is no better person to embody this than self-described “ardent Catholic” Pelosi.

    Mrs. Strelnikov has a fairly calm demeanor, but her high boiling point was reached watching this pseudo-Catholic bumble and stumble and then simply lie her way through this interview on Sunday.

    Excommunication is old-fashioned, is even seen as something of a relic, so do not expect the official Catholic Church to excommunicate Pelosi or Kennedy or any of these other crypto-atheist posers publicly.

    But in one way they have already excommunicated themselves by their constant support and even encouragement for the American Holocaust.

  • Zigguratv

    I remember being slightly annoyed when I saw it.

    I’m guessing that is where Nancy “the student of theology” picked up that information about “Senator” Augustine.

  • MrBrown

    “Abortion “is always gravely evil, and so are the evasions employed to justify it,” the statement continued” (quote)

    Well, he just threw out the cases of Rape, Incest, and high risk pregnancy.

    • Leon_H_Wolf

      But I’m at a loss to guess what it might be.

      • Rod_Patrick

        Because your intuition is correct. According to his response to Aaron, Mr. Brown is “currently” leaning for Obama.

        • Zigguratv

          self-defense (high-risk pregnancy) would be probably the only one the Catholic church would accept as not an evasion, although ‘the mother’s health’ is a rather loosely defined concept currently.

          For rape or incest, if a man rapes his wife, can she kill their 6-year-old son, or would that be considered murder? If you recognize that life begins at conception (maybe you don’t), then rape isn’t a justifiable excuse. Neither is incest, since Catholic theology generally frowns upon making children pay for their parents’ sins.

          When people say, “Well what about…” in order to justify abortion, that is engaging in the act of evasion.

  • arel

    I believe Nancy Pelosi better re-read her bible I believe she has forgotten some very important verses of scripture. Not only is abortion discussed so is life in the womb.

    • streiff

      are exceptions to the prohibition so I’m sort of at a loss to see what your point might be.

      You can allow those exceptions if you wish, you just can’t do them and be Catholic which is the point of this story.

      • MrBrown

        most of the conservatives I talk with list those 3 things as the only reasons that a woman should be allowed to have an abortion. And the evangelical base is largely conservative. I’m just surprised that those things would be considered evasions in the bishop’s eyes as a conservative.

  • NightTwister

    …but it’s ok the other way around.

    • PO

      If you want to keep libertarians in your fold and not simply claim more authority than the other party, you need to figure out a way to distinguish between “illegal” and “immoral”. Abortion is an easy platform for this discussion.

      The distinction is quite easy actually–government should not be compelled to police every sin, but to rely on communities to handle themselves. Gray areas of rape, incest, etc., are clear to the moral conscience of just about every community.

      On the other hand, you could serve libertarians our divorce papers in the following way: 1. Rely on government to enforce, not just encourage, morality. 2. Celebrate taking the family fortune out to the curb each week in trash bags to be picked up by the trash man (dumping ground: Iraq) and 3. Making your convention about pity: who has the most pathetic personal history. Biden is your bait: will McCain win the pity party? If so, you might win, but you lose the libertarian element permanently. It’s about policy, not pity.

      • streiff

        Pelosi isn’t an Evangelical. Evangelicals tend to not have bishops. In fact, Archbishop Wuerl is hardly a conservative.

        • Leon_H_Wolf

          It would appear that you’ve gone your whole life without ever meeting an actual, real life Catholic. Shocking, but possible, I guess.

          • Rod_Patrick

            She belongs to the bunch of hypocritical and self-professed theologians. But the unlimited comfort of secular lifestyle forces them to cling to expedience and lukewarm treatment of faith. Some even negate the laws of nature to justify their actions, beliefs and political inclinations.

            If PELOSI really believes on what she has said, then let her establish her own brand of Catholicism for the sake of transparency and truth.

  • fisk2521

    A major strategy of left-wing liberals like Pelosi is to rewrite history and make it sound believable to the masses. It is not unusual these days to proclaim a new approach to what actually is true; after all we live in a ‘relative’ society where truth doen’t really matter. As Orwell says in “1984″:

    ” Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past. “

    This latest by our illustrious “Speaker” however truly stuns me. If she were truthful she would tell you that as a young girl in catechism classes she never learned that abortion was debatable. She learned that life is valued from conception to old age and that taking the life of an innocent baby to suit your own ‘lifestyle issues’ is unacceptable as a Christian. The Catholic Church has continued to stand behind this belief, while many protestant churches take a different view, a relative view leaning more towards what the woman needs and nothing more.

    Maybe she’d like to turn out the lights at the Vatican for a while, in order to change the ideas of the church to suit her perspective.

    She should be excommunicated immediately.

  • streetwise

    IIRC, we still have around 1 million abortions per year. That’s like 5 or 6 Iraq conflicts, civilian victims of terror included, every year.

    But in a bipartisan spirit, I put forth two slogans for Mme Speaker:

    Choice: from the Garden of Eden until now, you just can’t beat it!

    Abortion: it’s for the children!

    • hoosierteacher

      Rape, incest, high risk pregnancy; they all justify the murder of an infant.

      I don’t know which of the three is worse:

      1. Murdering an infant to bring closure to a crime (like rape),

      2. The use of that foolish argument (rape, incest, the fairy tale “life of mother” scenario which doesn’t exist) to justify abortion on demand, which is the great majority of abortions,

      3. The failure of the Catholic Church to put it’s money where it’s mouth is, which is to say, excommunicating members of the church who gain a nation wide audience (politicians), openly lie about church teachings, distort church teachings, use these distortions to justify the slaughter of millions of infants, and widely proclaim membership in the church. I understand the hands off approach to politicians voting their conscience, but not publicly falsifying church teaching on a profound issue such as mass infanticide. Bishops speaking out is nothing more than a wink and a nod at worst, and a slap on the wrist at best. (Much like politicians stating they are “dissapointed” in Russia’s actions in Georgia, or the UN issuing empty proclamations.

      Oh well. Mr. Brown will continue to justify the murder of infants that are the product of rape and incest, and all to justify abortion on demand. You can’t argue with hypocrits.

      • Zigguratv

        “Illegal” is what is against the law. Since we the people make the laws, we determine what is illegal. If enough people want abortion to be illegal because they believe it is immoral, they are perfectly in their rights to make it so, and to pursue that state.

        And as for ‘communities handling themselves’, what about certain third-world immigrant populations which tend to abort both an unwed mother and the baby at the same time? Should government stay out of it?

        • MrBrown

          but who actually conforms to this…

          • MrBrown

            I just dont care about denominations. In religion, or politics. Its not something I bring up, “What religion are you?”

          • aaronbg

            n/t

          • Rod_Patrick

            and I agree.

          • MrBrown

            Abortion is a moot issue to me as its a religious issue. Those things are instances I hear majority of my conservative friends say they would “consider” abortion an option. Not mine.

          • hoosierteacher

            So the same guy who thinks society should be alowed to determine the difference between illegal and immoral (and claims to be a libertarian) supports Roe v Wade, a decision that takes the voters out of the equation?

            A true libertarian wants these decisions in the hands of voters. Last I checked, libertarians weren’t in favor of big government and courts making their decisions.

            Shouldn’t the courts (in a libertarian world) keep their filthy claws away from infants, and allow democracy to determine if murder is allowable? Or are you saying murder can’t be regulated, because it is a moral issue?

          • Leon_H_Wolf

            Why you’re involving yourself in this thread. Perhaps you were deceived by the subtlety of streiff’s title into thinking that this would be a discussion of non-denominationalism or Unitarian doctrine or something?

            In any case, allow me to clear up the confusion: this piece is very specifically about the distortion of Roman Catholic doctrine by a particular and easily identifiable American politician. Since we’ve established that you’re not interested in the topic of discussion, why don’t you move along?

          • aaronbg

            n/t

          • Rod_Patrick

            Aaron, can’t you see? For the first time, Mr. Brown has agreed to a die-hard conservative. Why can’t we leave it like that? lol.

          • Zigguratv

            because the ‘conservatives’ you talked to (perhaps in a very misty setting) all agree that rape, incest, or headache are all good reasons for an abortion.

            A Catholic who understands his religion would not say that. There’s a lot of ‘cafeteria Catholics’ who take the parts they like and leave the stuff they don’t.

          • hoosierteacher

            Try again?

          • MrBrown

            Aaron, I’m not, and i think deep down you know it. I’m as honest and open mined a person as you will meet.

            Sorry for getting off topic.

          • aaronbg

            MrBrown agreed with Night but Night was almost assuredly being sarcastic. MrBrown just showed his a$$ and I can’t stand trolls. Especially the type who show up just after the Dem party announces their VP pick and throw praise on Joe Lieberman and suggest we pick the same as VP.

            We have enough division between our Mods and Conservatives here…we don’t need trolls providing extra division.

  • liberalrepublican

    I believe it absolutely should be a religious issue. Let people decide based on their religious beliefs whether or not they want an abortion.

    Keep the Federal Government out of it.

    • Leon_H_Wolf

      I believe it absolutely should be a religious issue. Let people decide based on their religious beliefs whether or not they want to steal.

      Keep the Federal Government out of it.

      • Vegas_Rick

        One can certainly be conservative and not particularly religious, and the other way around.

        One can oppose abortion on a secular basis as well. I don’t have to be religious to know that the little creature in my daughters belly is a human being that deserves protection.

  • Shaggy_Dog

    First Bill Clinton’s Bible study class told him that getting a BJ doesn’t count as sex.

    Now Nancy has parsed St. Augustine’s writings and determined that abortion is a-ok.

    It’s hard to imagine what they will come up with next? Maybe that St. Paul was just a latter day Larry Craig?

    • Rod_Patrick

      did you bring up your conservative friends? It may be unfair, you know.

      1. I couldn’t believe that such alleged admission “that they would” was part of a public discussion if your friends are really conservatives. You might be spilling something confidential that your friends would not admit publicly.
      2. Being a follower of conservatism doesn’t mean that a person is no longer prone to temptation. Self preservation and comfort would always occur in your mind if you’re in such difficult situation. Your “would consider” is hypothetical and is not tantamount to commission.

      Finally, we are talking about “general principle”. You forgot to tell your friends’ general viewpoints wrt abortion, which I think will weigh heavily in an actual situation(I hope it won’t.) Note that the existence of a “legal” option is what really causes the indecision. Alternatively, here are a couple of hypothetical questions:

      1. Are you sure that your friends are really conservatives?
      2. If so, what kind of conservatives are they?
      • birdmojo

        Or is theft part of “Interstate Commerce” because the stolen goods are likely to have come from across state lines?

        Oh, I know. General Welfare!

        • aaronbg

          ….especially when you know that what you said is filled with snark….I can’t wait for Sept 13th at Jose’s….we are gonna have some fun.

          • Zigguratv

            In cases of rape or incest?

          • Taniwha

            think it is ok in cases of having less than someone else as it is.

          • Spartan4Life

            The US government inserted ITSELF into abortion by constitutionalizing the right to an abortion. The reason it should be overturned is because it is bad law. If you got rid of Roe v. Wade, then the voters could debate it on a state by state basis and vote up or down.

            Isn’t that how our constitution is supposed to work?

          • shooflyguy68

            At some point, you have to consider that the human being in the womb is a person that deserves protection. The idea that that point occurs when the baby hits fresh air is extreme, to say the least. So, even keeping religion and religious belief aside, society has a responsibility to set a reasonable time within the 9 month pregnancy period at which to bestow full legal protection to that person in the womb. Some of our more conservative friends believe, based on their religious convictions sometimes, that full legal recognition should be bestowed upon conception. Others, based on their religious or other conviction, believe that date should be at some point later. So, while I agree that we should not base our laws directly on any religious beliefs, I think we can restrict or even outlaw abortion without taking any religious teachings into account.

            By the way, I happen to think we should keep abortion legal in the 1st trimester and then severely restrict it in the 2nd trimester and ban it except to save the life of the mother.

          • Tim_Schieferecke

            Strangely enough, it seems that EVERY state and the federal government have laws against the killing of a human being by another human being with malice aforethought too. It seems that murder is pretty well covered by both religion and the government. A baby is a life. Every baby has a soul. Killing babies is evil.

          • Justin_Case

            on “where to draw the line”.

            It is not above my pay grade to insist that life begins at conception.

            >

          • shooflyguy68

            You don’t need the Bible or any religion to create and enforce a law against murder.

          • streetwise

            not that high political office is going to her head, or anything.

          • youthgrunt

            Or murder?

            We have to fact the fact that anytime the government makes something illegal (e.g. theft, murder, assault, intoxicated driving, etc.) it is making a moral judgment.

            The question for us is when is it legitimate for a government to make a moral judgment. Usually libertarians will say that it is when it affects someone else. I draw my line a bit more broadly as a conservative. But both libertarians and conservatives will usually come down on the same side on abortion because they believe that an abortion is the killing of another human life. And that, by the way, is why it is not just a religious issue.

            This is fairly core to the American founding–something about a fundamental right of “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness”.

          • aaronbg

            I think that is the bigger point…If the Morals are not solid neither are the Laws.

          • streetwise

            since Europe is so beloved of the left, you would think that counts for something, no?

          • shooflyguy68

            There is no need to bring religion into it. As a matter of fact, any relious law is irrelevant to the discussion.

          • Justin_Case

            .

          • Spartan4Life

            It is right in the demo platform. Something about an unfettered right to an abortion, regardless of ability to pay. Now that’s looking out for the least of your sisters.

          • Spartan4Life

            It is right in the demo platform. Something about an unfettered right to an abortion, regardless of ability to pay. Now that’s looking out for the least of your sisters.

          • shooflyguy68

            and one I bring up all the time. Even in secular Europe, restrictions on abortion are much more severe than what we have here in the US. Which is also why I think we can keep religion out of the discussion. It just muddies the discussion, in my opinion.

          • Justin_Case

            I also believe that it is within government’s constitutional role to protect that same life.

          • shooflyguy68

            and the government pays for medical care for poor women, then there is no legal reason to exempt a legal procedure from that government program.

          • aaronbg

            n/t

          • NightTwister

            I tried to reply to this twice, and my comment got lost somewhere in the ether.

          • shooflyguy68

            And that’s fine. I’m not saying you need to support it. You have every right to protest and work towards any change in the law you wish. However, in our forms of government, if you are basing your position on your faith, then your argument is no stronger than an atheists or a Muslims or a Hindu. It just doesn’t matter.

          • aaronbg

            n/t

          • aaronbg

            …Babies in the womb move, they have beating hearts, and they breathe. They are alive and aborting their life is equatable to murder. This is not a matter of faith.

          • civil_truth

            Maybe that St. Paul was just a latter day Larry Craig?

            I recall that several books or articles have been written arguing that Paul was a closet homosexual (or worse), (ab)using the Corinthians text about his thorn in the flesh as part of their ammunition.

            And of course we have all the breathless bodice rippers about Jesus’ sex partners and progeny.

            I’m not sure what theological libel hasn’t been committed yet

          • Rod_Patrick

            Yeah. I are dreaming that after Mr. Brown’s wild tour here at RS, he will vote for McCain and forget about BO.

            Wrt to Mr. Brown, you’re right bro. He really needs a thorough “un-learning” of his leftist ideas.

          • shooflyguy68

            I have 3 of my own. I started talking to them when they were a clump of cells in my wife’s belly. While I don’t personally support abortion, I can see the government keeping abortion legal in the first trimester.

            Of course our goal as a society should be to prevent unwanted pregnancies and abortions. We should support and fund adoption programs. We should fund day care programs so that women can have a baby and still work or go to school. Most importantly, we need comprehensive sex ed so that kids know how to prevent pregnancies in the first place – abstinence best, contraception as an informed choice.

          • Rod_Patrick

            Libs are against St. Paul because he outrightly “condemned” homosexuality, but mind you, not the homosexuals (i.e., person committing the act). He’s very compassionate by asking them to change their ways.

          • aaronbg

            But gov’t should error on the side of caution when it is a matter of life and death. We agree abortion is wrong. For me even in the first trimester because I remember my wife telling me in the first trimester about what she felt inside the womb. Yes even in the first golden trimester she could feel the baby in her. She described it as a butterfly flapping it’s wings.

            All the other stuff you mentioned is filled with good intentions that unfortunately take the responsibility away from the parent to educate their children. This only exacerbates the original problem because the parents relinquish control of their children the gov’t which has proven itself incapable of child rearing.

          • MrBrown

            1 They say they are conservative, I have no reason to not believe them.

            2 I’m not sure what the question means. I already hate liberal/conservative divisions, I’m not going to ask someone to divide a division. They are probably just repeating what was programmed into them by their parents as far as I know.

          • aaronbg

            I’m not going to ask someone to divide a division

            Kinda like coming on a Republican/Conservative site and floating the idea of Joe Lieberman as a VP pick….yeah that is not inspiring divisiveness at all…..pfffffttttt!!!!

          • shooflyguy68

            When I wrote “we”, I meant we that want fewer abortions. Yes, of course women and men should be responsible and not have unprotected sex before marriage or at least not before they are emotionally and financially ready to raise children. However, you can’t punish the child because the parent was irresponsible. If women see a child as a burden as something that will prevent them from completing their education or persuing their career or something that will impoverish them, they are likely to get an abortion – legal or not. If we are serious about caring about the unborn, we better be serious about caring for those that are born. Otherwise, it’s all just an exercise in theoretical morality.

          • aaronbg

            …that is the part that is truly filled with good intentions but fails miserably as a practice.

          • Tim_Schieferecke

            I don’t want to get along with far leftist liberals, I want to electorally crush them. I view Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, Senator Obama and all other far leftists as my political enemies. There is no way to find middle ground with such wackos, and to attempt it is folly. Constantly striving to find middle ground weakens the meaning, power, and innate good of fighting conservative causes. Finding middle ground with moderates is fine, but socialism must be fought at all costs.

          • CincoSolas_del_Bronx

            … the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and … every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually

            … The heart is deceitful above all things,
            and desperately sick;
            who can understand it?

            … What comes out of a person is what defiles him. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.

            … although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

            … They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts.

            * irrespective of political persuasion, of course, lest any think otherwise

          • liberalrepublican

            ridiculous strawman arguments…

            Would you support the death penalty for a woman who has an illegal abortion?

          • streiff

            for someone who kills an infant?

  • birdmojo

    So, in this thread, we’ve seen mockery of people who would make exceptions for rape/incest/mother’s life, we’ve seen it implied that the death penalty is appropriate for a woman who procures an abortion (and certainly for the doctor who provides it), and, all around, exceptionally principled examples of the pro-life position.

    It’s such things, I suspect, that communicates that any abortion restrictions whatsoever is the nose of the camel.

    • aaronbg

      whose camel is being discussed and whose tent is it’s nose under….

      It’s such things, I suspect, that communicates that any abortion restrictions whatsoever is the nose of the camel

      The way I read this it’s our camel under the D’s tent…is that what you meant?

  • Strelnikov

    A little history: why would people absolutely WANT a society that freely and openly allows abortions, given that the majority would most probably never be involved in such a situation?

    We will agree that human societies have had this dirty little secret for millenia. The local “old woman with a stick” (the basis for the witch and her broom, I was once told by a professor of medieval history) performed a service which nobody or very few admitted or liked, but which happened.

    In very ancient times of course, there was the crude method of birth control known as “exposing the infant,” hence all the wonder stories about kindly animals adopting the exposed infant.

    In fact, the infant died and was eaten. But nobody wanted to think about that: so they invented stories to assuage their guilt.

    The point is that language and fantasy hid the basic, normal, and well-deserved guilt behind abortion and infanticide.

    Only in modern times are we trying to get rid of the guilt by finally coming right out and proudly proclaiming that abortions are “safe and legal.” Why feel any guilt?

    The larger issue, therefore, is connected to free sexuality without guilt: as an example, allow me to recall an article by left-winger Ellen Goodman in the ’80′s which astonished me.

    AIDS was just getting cranked up, and the point of her article was that AIDS was going to derail the Sexual Revolution. How could you have free, guiltless sex if you were worried about the consequences of AIDS? This is why she wanted a fast cure and eradication of AIDS, so people could get back to sex with no consequences.

    And that attitude answers why a left-wing society would proudly want to have abortion as an open part of life: a world free of any kind of guilt, especially sexual, no matter what you have done, a Brave New World.

    • birdmojo

      I see abortion in the first month or two as a privacy issue between a woman and her doctor and ought not fall under the jurisdiction of law enforcement.

      However, I see abortion in the 3rd trimester as a violation of the Human Rights of the infant and that would trump the privacy issue of the mother… while a mere 6-7 months earlier, I’d see the privacy issue as pantamount.

      But I see stuff like refusing to make exceptions for rape/incest/life of mother as… well, let me say something fairly uncontroversial and say that I see this refusal as a losing political issue when a somewhat softer position would not be.

      I also suspect that many folks in the squishy middle (remember, these are the folks who decide elections!) have the same intuitions even if they haven’t verbalized them.

      But, as I said, I’m probably projecting.

      • NightTwister

        Unfortunately, most liberals think Independence Day was June 17, 1963.

        • Raven

          Then it’s okay to steal from someone who has more than someone else even if it’s less than you…

          • streiff

            you want me, and a lot of people like me, to not act on our beliefs because they are different from your beliefs and our beliefs make you uncomfortable. Our discomfort at what you propose, open season kids until the second or third trimester, isn’t an item for negotiation.

            Essentially you are saying that your beliefs and feelings are more important and more valid than mine. I’ll simply never agree to that.

            Getting back to the original story, I don’t have a problem with people believing what you do so long as I don’t have to subscribe to it. But you can’t believe what you do and call yourself a Catholic (not that you have).

          • aaronbg

            n/t

          • Raven

            I happen to agree with you, in fact, though I know that this puts me at odds with my Church.

            Contrary to some opinions above, you Can absolutely be a Catholic even if you disagree with some doctrine. You have to accept the possibility that you may very well be wrong, but you Can disagree (or was Galileo not a Christian, Streiff?).

            It’s in not only disagreeing with doctrine but telling everyone that the Church does not, actually, disagree with you. That is where Pelosi most certainly went wrong.

            Frankly, if life beings at conception, then in vitro fertilization, the only Possible way for many people to have a child of their own, is a sin and, in most cases, mass murder.
            Is this a position we really want to take? Is it something the Church has considered?

          • birdmojo

            “you want me, and a lot of people like me, to not act on our beliefs because they are different from your beliefs and our beliefs make you uncomfortable”

            I totally want you to act on your beliefs!

            Whatever makes you feel good!

            My problem is that I have some sympathy for some of your goals and think that the way that you are acting on your beliefs is resulting in your goals not being reached at all.

            The perfect is being the enemy of the good.

            I’m not telling you that you shouldn’t act on your beliefs. I’m just telling you that you’re doing it in such a way that seems to indicate to me that you will be able to act on your beliefs indefinitely as the goal you claim to want will be forever out of your reach.

            But, then again, maybe acting on your beliefs is itself the goal and you’re doing something that will allow this thing to continue indefinitely.

            In that case, I’ve gotta say “well played”.

          • birdmojo

            I think that life begins at conception… but that there are conflicting Rights that are stepping on each others’ toes.

          • Rod_Patrick

            This is the exact justification several liberals and pro-choice believers.

            Btw, I have no intention to conform with the middle. That’s why I am reaching out to advance my conservative beliefs… because I am making a stand.

          • aaronbg

            As a matter of faith we must proclaim what our end state goal is and be true to it in all our speech…you are more pragmatic then some in this respect. From what I read you prefer a battle of incremental steps to reach the end state goal and that is how you speak. For others the goals are the same but the speech must never waiver from the end state goal.

            Agreed?

          • birdmojo

            For the Third Trimester.

            For the First? Not so much. It’s more of a Schr?dinger’s Slave situation then.

            We’ve had discussions (at 2.0, mostly) on whether Child Protective Services provides a good model for Unborn Infant Protective Services. It strikes me as giving the state far, far too much power.

            And you just know that UIPS will be unionized.

          • birdmojo

            I suspect that you’ll be able to make this stand until the day you die.

          • liberalrepublican

            no direct answer.

          • birdmojo

            It’s more that I think that the battle of incremental steps has the first handful of steps be winnable but everything after those steps would not be… and I see that there would be benefit to having those first handful of steps enacted… but to enact them would require compromise to some degree which, as we’ve seen above, is out of the question.

            So instead of a handful of steps (perhaps getting us to European levels of restriction), nothing happens.

            And then we get to discuss whether the compromise would be a bigger betrayal than the perpetuity of the status quo.

          • Zigguratv

            At which point, you believe one human’s rights supersede another’s life. Which is more or less slavery.

            And which world would you rather live in: A world where parents can kill their children, or a world with Child Protective Services?

          • Rod_Patrick
          • CV_Gas

            First, the 46 chromosomes that are intrinsic to our DNA makeup are unique to human beings. Whatever your religious, astrological, metaphysical, etc. beliefs, that fact cannot be changed. Therefore, FROM THE MOMENT OF CONCEPTION, the conceptus is a human being (it cannot be anything else). I do happen to also believe it has a soul as well, but that is beside the point.

            Second, instead of fetus, conceptus, morula, zygote, insert the phrase “African -American.” There was a time when the general opinion of some individuals (and unfortunately such people exist today), was that they were not human as well. How does one reconcile what happens to be an opinion (a very “personal” issue) with that? Was it then acceptable to arbitrarily execute blacks just because there happened to be some who considered them less than human?

          • streiff

            a flat earth was never doctrine. You simply can’t go through the catechism and choose the parts you like. If you do that you aren’t Catholic, you are a Protestant. Now I don’t have an issue with anyone who chooses that route but you can’t disagree with a fundamental teaching and call yourself Catholic.

            The Church has considered in vitro fertilizationand more recently here.

          • streiff

            are the only conflicts I see.

          • Strelnikov

            Here is the link:

            http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/aug/26/archbishop-condemns-bidens-pro-choice-stance/

            The idea that Biden is so well-known as a Catholic in America that he will – somehow – attract Catholic votes automatically to an anti-Catholic political party simply shows the kind of FantasyLand the Democrats inhabit.

          • Zigguratv

            In which case, since I believe abortion is murder and that it should be illegal, is that a surprise?

          • birdmojo

            Like if a woman finds that she missed her moon sickness one month and then takes 4 birth control pills at once to induce the onset of moon sickness… I don’t see how that would fall under anything approaching the government’s business, let alone something that would require the intervention of law support.

            I also find it difficult to deem such an act “murder”.

            But I’m one of those libertines, as you know.

          • streiff

            and got all the consideration it deserved.

          • birdmojo

            Nor am I proposing one… despite that little incident down in Texas.

            No, it’s a world without UIPS that I propose we continue to live in.

          • CV_Gas

            through a political prism. Their core beliefs are related to the obtaining of power and then using said power to control the masses. Religion is merely a political avenue to explore. These kinds of displays are disgusting in their utter cynicism and ignorance of what people who actually have faith really believe.

          • CV_Gas

            How the act is accomplished does not change the end result…

          • Zigguratv

            That the state has far more power in determining who is a human being than in saying that all humans in the womb should be born.

            Marry universal health care to a world where the government determines what is or isn’t a human. Pretty soon your mythic UIPS is telling your wife you gotta get that thing aborted, because it’ll cost the taxpayers too much money.

          • Strelnikov

            Agreed: “Life” is a relative term for them.

            As I mentioned last week in a response elsewhere, the debate about human conception was switched in the 1970′s to the high-minded “a woman’s right to choose.” They are forced to agree that human life is being ended: what they insist upon is that the mother should be able to kill it at any time before birth.

            As mentioned above, it is part of the larger agenda of free hedonism.

            A tangent: I saw Patrick Kennedy being interviewed by M. Vieira on NBC this morning. When she asked him about his father’s brain cancer and how he was doing, and how he felt about it, Patrick Kennedy within three sentences turned the question into a polemic about nationalized health care, 40 million uninsured, etc. etc. etc.

            She had to rephrase the question and emphasized “as a son” how do you feel about the situation?

            Even a father’s brain cancer can become political and a tool to be used against heartless, unfeeling conservative Republicans.

          • aaronbg

            n/t

          • Justin_Case

            Your namesake was one of my favorite Pasternak characters.

          • Next93

            Last time I checked, we were around 4,000 Americans lives lost in Iraq. One million divided by four thousand comes out to 250.

            If you figure we’ve been in Iraq for 6 years, then we’d have to stay in Iraq for 1,500 years to get to 1 million American dead.

          • birdmojo

            It was Heliocentrism that got his Irish up.

            Proverbially, I mean.

            (He also issued a Papal Bull against smoking tobacco because it led to sneezing.)

          • birdmojo

            Imagine the works we could create!!!

          • birdmojo

            That still doesn’t mean that I think that a SWAT team should kick down someone’s door in the dead of night, shoot the dogs, and arrest a woman and force her to take a blood test to see if she happened to take too many birth control pills in the last few days.

            And, sure, you’re not proposing that the police get involved to this degree.

            You’re just asking me if I don’t consider poisoning to be murder.

            (And, for the record, I don’t consider it analagous to poisoning… it’s inducing menstruation.)

          • Next93

            If the only way you can have children is by creating and desroying embryos, then maybe you should just adopt a child. Solve two birds with one stone.

            My wife has a brother and a sister who were adopted. It works great. Much better than trafficing in human lives.

          • liberalrepublican

            Bringing up the idea of theft was silly.

            However bringing up the consequences of making abortion illegal is part of the discussion.

            So, the idea is that it’s illegal for a woman to abort a baby (because that’s murder) so the state is allowed to kill the mother.

            Got it.

          • kyle8

            missed you

          • Zigguratv

            Probably airports and infrastructure that a lightweight one-term senator would find very impressive.

          • birdmojo

            Also there’s the whole “I don’t want to step on anyone’s toes with the whole election thing coming up” thing.

            I’ll argue theory but I tend to shy away from the Cheer/Boo-leading threads.

            And this one specifically mentions Catholic Doctrine.

            I’m on it like a wolf on a baby.

          • CV_Gas

            the end result is the intentional premature death of another human being. When you shoot someone in the head, you call it murder not the rapid acceleration of natural forces.

          • birdmojo

            Should the woman be held to account for her crimes or should she walk free on the streets like she’s done nothing wrong?

          • Zigguratv

            Is this really that much more ridiculous?

          • ILLINOIS_CONSERV

            A Chicago “priest” and as a Catholic from Chicago I choke on putting Father before his name. He is the sorriest exuse for a Catholic priest I have ever seen and ranks among the sick molesters that have been excommunicated. A quick bio on Pfleger: Activist priest in Chicago. Ministers to African-American parish. LOVES LOVES LOVES media coverage as much as Jesse Jackson does. Most recently was the star of a mocking video of Hillary at the church of Jeremiah Wright. Cursing during his song and dance. Quite funny in a sick way. He is also known for saying he wanted to “snuff out” a local gun shop owner. Good Christian man. I would like to see Cardinal George of Chicago grow a spine and kick this clown to the curb. Speaking as a Catholic this so-called “priest” needs to be shown the door. This isn’t the Catholic faith that I was raised to embrace.

          • Zigguratv

            What if a girl gives birth to a baby, and in a panic hides it in her closet until it starves to death?

            Do we have the right to send in a SWAT team and shoot the dogs?

          • birdmojo

            I’ve been banging my head against the wall trying to come up with a basic plot for my Harry/Hermione fanfic actually…

            But I digress.

            I would say that not only does it meet the level of ridiculousness that using SWAT for bags of weed meets, it exceeds it.

            And that’s no little feat.

            More to the point, it’s a political loser. But, hey. Whatever floats your boat. It’s not helping the “they’re not doing this to actually enact change” theory that’s been percolating in the back of my head, though.

          • Zigguratv

            like Senator Augustine on the Catholic Church

          • birdmojo

            But I would say that a judge would certainly have justification to sign a warrant to allow CPS into the house to ask some questions.

          • Zigguratv

            for doing the 4-pill chaser thing. Mind you, I don’t think it’s easy to prove somebody did that.

          • ILLINOIS_CONSERV

            of an unborn fetus. If someone murders a pregnant woman, he/she will be charged with the murder of the Mother as well as the unborn child. If that is the case, how can abortion be legal? Side note: Obama has consistently voted against ANY pro life legislation including late term abortions and cases of live berths during abortions. In other words should a baby survive an abortion there is to be NO attempt to keep that baby alive. That is enough said in regards to what Obama’s family values are.

          • Zigguratv

            Did you just claim to be working on fanfic with a heterosexual relationship in it?

            Impossible. No such fanfic exists.

          • Zigguratv

            Now why do you consider this position so outrageous?

          • birdmojo

            And the CPS to go to the door.

            For The Children.

            So they can make the lady pee in a cup.

            And the prosecutor can argue before a judge that the lady needs to be taught a lesson.

            It’s better than the other stuff the cops could be doing, I suppose.

          • CV_Gas

            Your SWAT team allusion is a distraction from the real discussion. You have yet to answer my points here. As far as the political expediency, my personal opinion is democrats are much more adept at using human lives as political pawns than I am. My beliefs have nothing to do with how they happen to fly in the current political winds. My beliefs are tied to a deeper belief in the sanctity of human life.

          • birdmojo

            Hermione would really be Cedric Diggory.

            Of course the story would take place between books 2 and 3.

          • liberalrepublican

            It’s perfectly logical.

            And it way, way, way outside the mainstream of society.

            I do appreciate your honesty and conviction, but personally, I don’t have near the confidence in the government you do.

          • Zigguratv

            That’s why I don’t want them saying what is or isn’t a human being.

          • liberalrepublican

            You want the government to make this very personal decision.

            You don’t trust citizens to make it on their own.

            I don’t trust the government and do trust citizens.

          • birdmojo

            I agree that life begins at conception.

            As for ensoulment, I’m a monist.

            As for your point of: “Second, instead of fetus, conceptus, morula, zygote, insert the phrase “African -American.” There was a time when the general opinion of some individuals (and unfortunately such people exist today), was that they were not human as well. How does one reconcile what happens to be an opinion (a very “personal” issue) with that? Was it then acceptable to arbitrarily execute blacks just because there happened to be some who considered them less than human?”

            Allow me to ask you the difference between a human being that happens to be in a shed and a human being that we only recently have been able to begin testing for five days before the moon sickness is scheduled to begin (or so I ascertain from the commercials).

            Let’s say that you have reason to believe that your next door neighbor is pregnant.

            What do you believe that law enforcement should have the right to do? Would a warrant be required to make her pee on a pregnancy test stick?

            Would a negative test be evidence that a judge could look for to do a toxicology test on her blood to see if, perhaps, she took over the required dose of birth control pills?

            If she took over the required dose of birth control pills, would that be grounds for a murder charge?

            Do you really think that coming out and saying “we think that your tax dollars should go for the police being able to arrest women who are suspected of taking 4 birth control pills a few days before their (potentially) missed period and charging them with premeditated murder” will be a winning platform for a President who will, I presume, nominate Supreme Court Justices who wil, I presume, overturn Roe.v.Wade?

  • Menlo

    One is entitled to his or her own beliefs but NOT to his or her own facts.

    Warren never asked when life began. He asked when human life should have rights. Those are two different questions.

    Anyone who thinks one can legitimately question when life begins or frame it as a religious issue should not have graduated high school. It is not a question of faith. It is a basic scientific fact of biology (the very study of life), and this has been known for nearly two centuries. That’s why laws against abortion popped up in the early 1800′s. There can be no legitimate debate or questioning outside the Flat Earth Society. Biology asserts that a whole distinct living human beings at fertilization regardless of one’s feelings or beliefs. One cannot “believe” when human life begins as that is not opinion or faith. Leaving faith out of it justifies prohibiting it more than the other way around.

    Pelosi did a nice cover up in the end by ultimately pointing out that it did not matter. I think most educated people on the left, when forced to recognize basic biology, will argue that it truly is irrelevant. Some conconct this notion of “personhood,” but most just dismiss the biological facts as irrelevant to the legality of abortion.

    To that, I can only argue that this is a fight for equality as much as it is for life. You don’t discriminate against someone (especially his or her very life) because of his or her age, physical location, size, or appearance. Nor do you do so because of one’s emotional or socioeconomic impact on others. You don’t let “personal belief” dictate who one, ESPECIALLY a state-licensed “doctor,” can or cannot kill or torture.

    • streetwise

      in Iraq, civlilian and military, from 2003 to now.

      Divide 1MM abortions a year in the US, and you get 6.7 Iraq wars per year.

      Safe, legal, rare – my a$$

      • mbecker908

        And an open ended comment like the one that started this thread just feeds the questions.

        So, bottom line, do you have a point with that comment? If so you should make it. If not, you should keep your keyboard shut.

        • mbecker908

          and his/her “helpers” for 1st degree murder for an abortion. And I would support the death penalty for them. I would prosecute the woman for a crime that – first time – would be a high level misdemeanor or low level felony. Second time, murder one.

          An unborn child is the most vulnerable person in our society and deserves the full protection of the law.

          • CV_Gas

            is negligible in the sense you are raising. They both have supreme value. In a moral sense, it actually behooves us to place more value on the fetus since it represents a constituency that has no say in its fate, nor the power to defend itself. As for the rest, I’m sorry, but I have to lame out. I just finished with work and have 1.5 hours of traffic ahead of me. I look forward to picking your brain in the future.

          • Zigguratv

            Whether or not he wants slaves, and the government should stay out of it. What a libertarian paradise we would have then.

            Do you not understand the danger of letting the government define who isn’t a person? Is it really more important that one group of people be able to kill another group?

          • liberalrepublican

            “An unborn child is the most vulnerable person in our society and deserves the full protection of the law.”

            Misdemeanor? what a joke. You either don’t believe what you write or you are afraid to make the logical connection.

            I respect the guy who was consistent in his argument.

            I don’t agree, but I respect his honesty.

          • mbecker908

            Or you or yours. You sit back and consciously support the butchering of pre-born children.

            I’m sure you’ll have some real quality time at the White Throne over that one.

  • Lammo

    The Catholic Answers web site “www.catholic.com”. They have a Voters Guide for Serious Catholics (there’s also a version for non-Catholics) among other great resources. I’m sure Pelosi/Biden/Kennedy/Kerry/etc. ad nauseam have never read the guide – - if they did I think their brains would burst into flames. These people need to stop lying to themselves. THEY ARE NOT CATHOLICS!!!!!! At best they are probably Anglicans, they just can’t admit it to themselves or to the public.

    P.S. I realize this post is late in the day and there’s already a bazillion other posts on this topic and nobody probably cares anymore. This is what I get for living in the great Pacific Northwest! :-)

    • Lammo

      “illegal” is a sick bird! :-)

      • Zigguratv

        Do you have no respect for me? Is my position of prosecuting abortion cases as murder for a first offense as opposed to a misdemeanor really worthy of condemnation?

        • birdmojo

          Because it strikes me as quite relevant.

          For one thing, you can get a warrant to have a couple of cops get onto the property, walk over to the shed, and look at the person and, when you see that he is chained, you can free those chains, take the guy in the shed to a place where he will get proper nutrition, clothing, etc.

          Let’s say that a woman is 3 weeks pregnant.

          What do you have?

          If you want to hammer out how they both have the same worth as humans in the Eyes of God, sure. Fine. Whatever.

          I’m talking about what you want the government to have the power to enforce.

          The guy in the shed requires relatively little.

          The guy in the fallopian tube? Quite a bit more.

          • Menlo

            You are distinguishing between a blanket equal rights protection and medical and drug restrictions. Obviously, the state must hold the medical and drug professions to a different legal standard.

            Even in the former case, I see no objection to exempting actions of the pregnant woman. It is not because the unborn are worth less but because there are competing rights that simply do not conflict when the child is not physically attached. These competing rights must be reasonably balanced. The scenario you propose is not a reasonable balance. That is why there is support for building such protections into legal protections for the unborn.

            Either way, what you’d have is a de facto medical and drug restriction.

          • birdmojo

            So now we’ve gone beyond talking about overturning Roe vs. Wade, but now we are talking about overturning Griswold vs. Connecticut?

            These things are not, in fact, falsifying my “they’re not trying to change things” theory.

          • Menlo

            You are raising a different point here, but I’ll address it.

            Griswold deals with contraception. Consistent with everything else I said, I was referring specifically to drugs whose purpose is to abort. Only one currently exists in the world, and it is not a contraceptive. That abortion may be a side effect of a drug obviously defies the reasonable balance of rights I spoke of were the unborn to have equal rights.

            Of course, there is a simple and WONDERFUL solution that would eliminate the need for any drug restrictions: ban all Chinese imports, and ban them now!

          • birdmojo

            But I’ve been under the impression for a while that if one takes 4 of one’s birth control pills (instead of just the one), that’s a fairly effective form of EC (or “Emergency Contraception”).

            I’ll have to do some research on this, now that I think about it… because, hey, it could easily be one of those things that guys tell chicks (naw, baby, you take 4 of those and it’ll be great) but, then again, it doesn’t strike me as absurd as the pill contains “you’re already pregnant” hormones and so an overdose of those could well do… something.

            I’ll ask the wife when she gets home.

          • Menlo

            I don’t know who started this myth trying to equate emergency contraception to abortion.

            Emergency contraception is just that – contraception. Its intent is to prevent fertilization. Yes, it is a high dose of regular contraception. And, as much as many other substances or behaviors, it may well have abortion as a side effect (a situation I addressed above). Even under equal protection, that does not justify restricting contraceptives.

          • aaronbg

            stick a bunch of sage up you hoohaa and hope for the best….well at least until we outlaw sage….;^)…I am sorry but this thread was getting kinda heavy…I had to lighten it up.

            I’ll leave now…

            [door slowly closes]

          • birdmojo

            I see a moral distinction between EC and abortion.

            Heck, I see a moral distinction between abortion, the medical procedure, and artificially inducing a skipped moon sickness.

            Surely you understand that I am a libertine, though.

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