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FRONT PAGE CONTRIBUTOR

On HPV and Virtuous Diseases

Health Policy From the Westboro Baptist School of Medicine

One of the disadvantages of being a procrastinator is that sometimes you lose great opportunities. I started on this story last week and put it aside because of travel, In the meantime I find that Michael Gerson has hit the subject much better than I ever could.

Though the kerfuffle concerning Michele Bachmann and the HPV vaccine from the Republican candidate debate in Tampa is about over, during the course of that debate I repeatedly encountered an argument that, in my view, belongs much more in Saudi Arabia than America.

Fact: there is no such thing as a virtuous disease.

Fact: no behavior or lifestyle choice merits death by cancer.

Without getting into the merits or process of Perry’s Gardasil decision the fact that the target of that vaccine is primarily spread via sexual activity should strike the average person, particularly a parent, as irrelevant. We should all be able to agree on is that no one deserves cancer. Period. End of discussion. We should also be able to agree that limiting the spread of any disease is, in the main, a worthy undertaking. If those two points can’t receive a resounding Amen, I’d submit that there is a real problem.

The side issue here is some people believe that giving their virginal tween daughter a series of shots that will protect her from a cancer that is primarily spread via sexual activity will turn her into a slut. That risk exists in same proportion that giving a child a Hepatitis B vaccine will make them either sexually promiscuous or an intravenous drug user. Why one vaccine should cause the heebie-jeebies and the other a yawn is beyond me.

The fact is that it takes a minimum of two people to have sex. Your child’s embrace or rejection of abstinence until marriage is irrelevant, you also have to take into consideration the possible pre-marital behavior of the future spouse of your child. His or her parents may not have done as good a job inculcating values as you have. Nevertheless, it is your child who is at risk, too.

The underlying premise in this argument is that a teen or young adult, who are notorious both for lack of impulse control and feeling immortal, will be deterred from having sex by the possibility of developing cancer two or three decades hence but they won’t be deterred by pregnancy, herpes, syphillis, gonorrhea, chlamydia, Hepatitis C, etc. in the near term, drags common sense out of its car and beats it silly. Unstated is the idea that exposing your child to the risk of cancer for the sake of making a debating point is not only acceptable but praiseworthy.

Parents protect their children. That is what parenthood is about. We should give no more respect to the argument that cervical or throat cancer is just desserts for sexual promiscuity than we should accept virtually the same argument from Westboro Baptist Church that AIDS is punishment for homosexuality.

COMMENTS

  • lansing

    How many conservatives are really against mandating Gardasil because they think it encourages promiscuous behavior or that these young girls deserve cervical cancer? I would say close to zero.

    One part of this debate I really dislike is I feel conservatives are using the language of the Left to defend a conservative Republican like Perry. It’s a pyrhic victory.

    For example, I think we can all agree that society would be a lot better off if High School girls didn’t get pregnant. So why don’t we mandate birth control shots like Depo-Provera to all teenage girls? It’s a very slippery slope.

    Why can’t we just say, “Perry is a great conservative, but he really messed up here mandating this for all girls. The vaccine itself is safe and beneficial, it certainly doesn’t cause retardation, but requiring is just very heavy handed and the decision should be left to parent.”

    • powertothepeople

      and such silliness.

      Do any of you “Perry Mandated………….” even understand what the word mandates means? Do you understand that a mandate does not offer the choice to opt out?

      And the silliness comes in when you try to compare blocking reproductive rights with blocking a killer cancer.

      If this whole “mandate” stupidity takes the place of the “prove he is a citizen” ignorance, our side deserves to lose.

      • lansing

        Not an opt out mandate, and that’s why the Texas legislature overruled him. Perry himself has admitted it was a mistake.

        This was a disease that affects less than 1% of the population, and no state had mandated it before.

        It doesn’t takes away that Perry is a solid conservative, but I really think it’s strange the amount of conservative that actually want to support this proposal. Would you really want all 50 states to start mandating every new vaccine that’s come down the pike?

        • powertothepeople

          Did you read it somewhere or just write it down in the attempt to bolster your argument?

          1% is as wrong as Obama is a bad president. Let me correct your figures just a bit here.

          From the CDC

          HPV (the virus). Approximately 20 million Americans are currently infected with HPV. Another 6 million people become newly infected each year. HPV is so common that at least 50% of sexually active men and women get it at some point in their lives.

          Genital warts. About 1% of sexually active adults in the U.S. have genital warts at any one time.

          Cervical cancer. Each year, about 12,000 women get cervical cancer in the U.S. Almost all of these cancers are HPV-associated.

          Other cancers that can be caused by HPV are less common than cervical cancer. Each year in the U.S., there are about:

          1,500 women who get HPV-associated vulvar cancer
          500 women who get HPV-associated vaginal cancer
          400 men who get HPV-associated penile cancer
          2,700 women and 1,500 men who get HPV-associated anal cancer
          1,500 women and 5,600 men who get HPV-associated oropharyngeal cancers

          Seems to be a little more than 1% would you not say?

          And again, silliness such as “Would you really want all 50 states to start mandating every new vaccine that?s come down the pike” holds no water bub. No one is calling for that. But by all means continue destroying your own argument with false facts and nonsense comments. Do not let me stand in your way.

          • congressworksforus

            Gardasil doesn’t protect from HPV. It protects from two strains of HPV, which account for about 8% of HPV cases.

            Now, redo your numbers and you’ll see 1% is actually higher than the real amount.

            This was the real travesty of Gardasil; it’s not even a GOOD vaccine!

          • powertothepeople

            we got a pile on person who spews numbers without a clue as to what they are talking about.

            I am sure next time this comes up you will ignore what I am about to tell you and just repeat your made up “facts” again, but here goes anyways.

            Gardasil protects against 4 strains, not two. Those strains are 6, 11, 16, and 18.

            Those strains are responsible for most death and are the most dangerous.

            Gardasil protects people from the strains received during sexual activity.

            Gardasil is useless if already infected which makes your ignorant comment below to another one of my responses laughable.

            The protection given by Gardasil protects people from the strains that cause 70% of cervical cancers and most HPV-induced anal, vulvar, vaginal, and penile cancer cases.

            The strains of HPV covered by Gardasil are the most prevalent ones so once again, 1% is an inaccurate number not based in facts.

            Any more peanut gallery comments you care to share?

          • gizmo

            There are more than 307 million people in USA. Therefore, adin ALL the #s together you gave – other than the “genital warts”, is actually only some 21-22 million… TOTLA with all aded together, this is only some 5-7% of population… without breaking down anything of these statistics! therefore, just as power… is saying below these numbers are almost totally meaningless without knowing so much more about where they come from, how gathered, and all that.

            We gotta remember that thes #’s 1st & foremost are gathered by the GOVERNMENT by BUREAUCRACY for GOVERNMENT use….

        • streiff

          unless you are in favor of cancer, isn’t it?

        • msjallen

          in CA and both of my granddaughters have had the series without harm. I didn’t like it but they would not allow any child in school if they did not have the shots.
          Another view. I had breast cancer and went through the surgery and all the Chemo and radiation and it was a living nightmare. I would have liked any shot that would have prevented going through that.

          Stop beating a dead horse about the vaccine. That is a dead issue since there are more important issues that we need to know what the candidates think.

    • paulnashtn

      “How many conservatives are really against mandating Gardasil because they think it encourages promiscuous behavior? I would say close to zero.”

      I believe you need to recheck your facts, from the MANY comments that I have heard, that is the PRIMARY reason that parents do not want to give it to their young girls. Actually, what they say is that it sends a message to the girls that they do not trust them not to have pre-maritial sex

    • streiff

      before you beclown yourself like this. Read the comments on the Gardasil posts. 30% of them are against the vax because you get the disease by sex. Half of that number link the vax to promsicuity

      Try this, for example

      http://www.therightscoop.com/behavior-the-real-issue-at-the-center-of-the-hpv-debate/

    • stddating

      Living with herpes /HPV is a hard life for many people. When I found this site HerpesFish.com I was once again hopeful.There are many sexy girls and hot guys who are seeking other singles with herpes. All of them are friendly and warm-hearted.

      • powertothepeople

        and a pitiful spam job at that. Other than Acat who has always had to deal with tapeworms, this would be the wrong site to pass on such a site as the one you are spamming for. Try Daily Kos, they have all the diseases a person could ever think of and would benefit from your site.

    • blarman

      You can’t mandate government regulations on private behavior and claim conservative values. The fact of the matter is that STD’s are the direct result of a lifestyle choice – not merely a random encounter with a stranger. And it should be pointed out that parents don’t even have to immunize their children for Measles, Mumps, Rubella, Whooping Cough, or Hepatitis B unless they attend public schools, and even then there is a religious exemption.

      Perry’s law went beyond those boundaries – in addition to meddling in affairs that are not the government’s to meddle in. Parents should have the right to decide participation in the immunization program – but should not be forced by law to participate. That is where both Perry and this author are dead wrong and display a statist mentality that is repugnant to conservatives. Yes, the results of HPV are terrible, but they are the result of a conscious choice. Instead of teaching our youth NOT to engage in sexual activities until they are married, you are instead telling them you are going to indemnify them from the results of their choices. No conservative parent is going to accept that hypocrisy.

    • dbkohl

      you are wrong.

      All players in the Take-Pot-Shots-at-Perry carnival game are to busy feigning horror and disgust at the mandate, and perception of sexual impropriety that they miss the big picture. No one wants to ask the obvious question: “Why did he make it mandatory in the first place?” The reason is simple. Insurance would never have paid for the vaccination had he not made it mandatory. In January 2008, the cost was $120.00 per dose. With a 3 dose series to be effective, that is $360.00 per vaccinated individual. Can anyone tell me what percentage of parents would be able readily fork over that kind much money for a recommended but required vaccine? Many would probably make the sacrifice and scrape the money together, but a great many more would/could not. However, making it mandatory as part of the required series of vaccinations would force the insurance companies’ collective hands. And for any parent still wishing to exercise their parental right to not have the child vaccinated, they simply opt-out.

      And speaking of using tactics and language of the left… being pregnant is not a disease nor is it an infection, so the Depo-Provera comment was out of line.

      I believe that you are correct about your assertion that very few if any conservatives really believe that the Gardasil vaccine will encourage behavior. You are also correct that Perry is a great conservative… I believe however, that Perry’s mistake, from what I have been able to gather is that he made the decision unilaterally without going to the Texas legislature and without getting ahead of criticism with cold, hard facts before detractors could hit him with it.

  • Marcus_Traianus

    I certainly understand compulsory vaccines in the case of infectious diseases. Especially if those diseases are proven over time. That is an easy conclusion to reach.

    But I object to the growing list of contemporary compulsory vaccines, Gardasil or otherwise, as a both a parent who knows my child best, and a thinking person who performs enough research to determine if a vaccine is safe, effective, etc.

    It is the lack of a decision and choice in the process (which coincidentally Mr. Perry provided in his decision) to which I object.
    Does the government make better decisions for my child than me? Hardly.

    So yes, Amen to those points listed above and enough of the strawman arguments and political pandering. However, I would add to that interjection, Amen to individual choice.

    • powertothepeople

      you are correct. But personal choice ends when something can harm, or in the case of HPV, kill another.

      As demonstrates so many times on this site and by Bachmann, rumors turn into personal convictions and decisions are made based on those incorrect beliefs. Bachmann tells a receptive audience, or in other words a bunch of people easily persuaded that vaccines are evil, that mental retardation happens due to Gardasil. Now they become anti Gardasil regardless of how many times they are shown that their beliefs are wrong. 20 years down the road, women lay on their death beds because of the transmission of HPV that could have been prevented had so many of their parents not fed into the laughable BS.

      • congressworksforus

        Those women “on their death beds” have the absolute right the day they turn 18 to go get themselves vaccinated…

        You’re adding more straw-man arguments to straw-man arguments.

        • powertothepeople

          on dumbest comments. I should just sit back and laugh that you actually forsook your pride enough to write this, but just for kicks and giggles I will entertain this idiocy.

          By 18, damage can be done and in a vast amount of cases, is done. Why you ask? Because just like many preventative treatments, once infected, Gardasil is worthless. Sort of like stopping smoking once you have progressive lung cancer. It is also a stupid comments based on the fact that if all morons took the same side as you, a person who fails to get the vaccine prior to becoming sexually active can infect thousands of others who parents listened to Bachmann and thought the shot would make their kid retarded. And all this can happen long before a person’s 18th birthday.

          You should really sweep out the tired old straw from your own desk before throwing out such a cliche comment. Or learn a little about the issue you are trying to argue.

        • streiff

          for the vax to work you have to get it before you come in contact with the virus. By age 18 you’re missing half the target group.

    • Darin_H

      Compulsory.

      Opt-out.

      Problem solved.

      • Marcus_Traianus

        Can you opt out of Hepatitis B or the new Chickenpox Vaccine? Not in most places if your child wants to attend public school.

        Don’t beclown yourself by making statements without proper context as a means of furthering some obscure parochial point.

        • Darin_H

          So you agree that you can opt out? Good, then you acknowledge that it’s not actually compulsory.

          • Marcus_Traianus

            But don’t let that stop your intellectual dissembling.

            Maybe I can draw you stick figures?

            Or maybe you can just go back and read my post again and point out where I said it was not compulsory. Hint: read the parenthetical comment.

    • lansing

      I really don’t think this whole debate is about vaccines themselves, it’s the role of government mandating them, especially in situations like cervical cancer. I completely understand mandating vaccines like measles or polio, but this is much different, and doesn’t have the track record.

      Let’s be honest, drug companies would love governments to mandate whatever new vaccine comes down the pike, we’re talking billions of dollars here. Unless it’s some real epidemic, why can’t we take our time before making these vaccines mandatory and let parents decide?

  • powertothepeople

    I appreciate your and others attempts to lay down a cognitive and sound argument for Perry on this issue, but I fear the party has been infiltrated by a ton of morons who refuse to do anything but repeat Ron Paul type talking points even when their “bullet” called mandate has been proven to be a blank. Somehow over the last 20 years these lower than room temp IQ’s have decided that anything government must be evil hence Perry/Gardasil must be evil because they read it somewhere.

    No matter how well you have laid down a factual and honest case, they will continue to beat the idiotic drum of “Oh god, mandate, evil mandate.”

  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    I say that because Perry is getting hell for something he admits that he did in the wrong way, and that he quickly corrected at the time it happened.

    Meanwhile Romney has defended his Romney care which was certainly more invasive than a simple public school inoculation which you could say no to.

    • wonkish1

      nt

  • danielhill2008

    Although I’m no huge fan of Michele Bachmann, I do admire her for much of her clear advocacy of conservative positions. That Gardasil thing, however, caused me to cringe as I watched that particular portion of the debate.

    I read the Gerson article, and the accompanying reader comments. I realize the comments are from WaPo readers, but Bachmann’s performance was the ammunition that progressives need. and use, to ridicule the conservative position.

    Perry, in my opinion, was wrong, and has admitted as much, in his attempt to promote the vaccine through executive order, but his heart and mind were certainly in the right place regarding the neccessity and the efficacy of said vaccine.

    Having been a parent of a young teenage daughter, regardless of how much you may try to impart “decent” values in your daughter, by the time she reaches the age of fourteen, don’t think she doesn’t know what’s going on, and don’t think she isn’t curious to try out her new equipment. Cancer twenty or thirty years down the road is not what she’s going to to be thinking about.

    A vaccine against disease is a vaccine against disease, regardless of the way that disease is most commonly communicated. Bachmann employed a stupid argument to try to distinguish herself as more “moral”, and in so doing, opened herself, and by extension Conservatism in general, to ridicule.

  • http://whattoreadtoday.blogspot.com/ Paula

    …and the clean needle crowd. These are the same arguments used by advocates of school based health clinics that override parental authority. Teens are going to engage in risky behavior so it’s the school’s (state’s) duty to do what the parents cannot or will not do – protect the children from themselves. Parents cannot be trusted to make the correct decision on behalf of their children, therefore the state must intervene. And let’s be honest, we’re especially talking about minority and low-income children whose parents are especially not bright enough to be trusted with these decisions.

    Why are conservatives borrowing from the liberal playbook to make their arguments defending this decision?

    And just to be clear, Perry has said he went about this in the wrong way, but he hasn’t said the mandate was a bad decision. He just thinks the legislature should have mandated it instead of doing it all on his own. That’s slightlybetter, but still troubling in my book.

    • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

      if it could be definitively proven that the approach you disagree with had a direct result in fewer pregnancies, fewer std’s and fewer abortions than an abstinence only approach?

      Are or you just philosophically opposed no matter what?

      • rightwingmom52

        Shall we sterilize loose women? How about low-income women? And let’s not leave the men out. How about vasectomies for deadbeat dads?

        Just asking. Who gets to decide?

        • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

          since the what paula was talking about was sex education and free condoms, certainly not anything like forced sterilization. You are comparing apples to oranges.

          But to be clear I am only asking the question since Paula seemed so firm in her beliefs.

          I don’t really feel as strong about them one way or the other because I think that what schools do in this area is mostly unnecessary. at best. But I also have never thought that sex education was so heinous that it was worthy of all the hysterical things I have heard some conservatives say about it over the years.

          • rightwingmom52

        • streiff

          but more to the point they have nothing to do with vaccinating people against a fatal illness.

    • streiff

      this issue has nothing to do with anything but cancer.

  • rcatheart

    And neither of them are “ooh look, the government trying to take over my life.”

    1) HPV and cervical cancer, while terrible, and occuring in much-higher frequencies than we would like, is not a public health crisis/epidemic in the sense that ,say, influenza was in 1918. HPV cannot be “unwittingly transmitted.” You do not catch it by sitting in a classroom with a kid who has it, shaking hands with someone who has just coughed, or or sharing a water fountain.

    Therefore, because it is not an epidemic, the following is a valid reason to reject the vaccination:

    2) this is (was, at the time, and pretty much still is) a brand new vaccine. Very little is known about the short-term effects, let alone the long-term effects, of this vaccine. (And I’m not even remotely suggesting that ‘mental retardation’ might be one of those side effects.)

    I am uninterested in this vaccine. (And I’m too old now, anyway).

    There was just something kind of creepy about the way it was rushed to the market, and then advertised all over TV as this “wonder drug” that “all girls need to get, right now, immediately, and if you don’t get this for your daughter you don’t love her blah blah blah.” On the whole, there is just what a friend describes as a “check in my spirit” about this vaccine, and I don’t want anything to do with it.

    That said, the argument that “you can control your behavior now but you can’t control the behavior of your future spouse” is an interesting one, and the one my dad used to try to get me to have the vaccination. I have some sympathy for this line of thought.

    What then, to be said of Rick Perry? While I find his decision to have been a stupid one, and it kind of weirds me out, it seems the man has endured sufficient public flogging over the issue and it’s now time for it go away.

    What *should* happen is that this would engender a debate on how we as a state think about public health crises, mandated vs. highly suggested vs. optional health care in the case of such a crisis, drug research standards, etc. I doubt, though, that this is likely to happen…

    • Common_Cents

      nt

    • streiff

      we can conclude that you would be against a vaccine for heart disease or lung cancer?

      • rcatheart

        had only been on the scene for a few months, had little-to-no long-term effect data published, was being creepily marketed, gave me a real internal sense of discomfort that I just couldn’t shake, and I was not presently in grave danger of succumbing to said illnesses, then yes, I would be against it. At least for me personally. Others may feel differently, and they are free to do so. It’s no skin off my nose.

        Look, I’m a childhood cancer survivor. I have plenty of friends who are childhood cancer not-survivors. I hope and pray like crazy for cures, better treatments, better prevention.

        But I’m a little skeptical of “all hail the miracle drug!!!!!!!!11111″ Been down that road before. It rarely pans out.

      • http://whattoreadtoday.blogspot.com/ Paula

        NT

        • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

          then you could make a pretty good case for it. seems like it would be a pretty good policy to reduce our huge healthcare costs.

          • http://whattoreadtoday.blogspot.com/ Paula

            Please try to understand that it’s the constant creep of the government telling us what we must do that is such a concern. We expect it from the other side. It’s their game plan. When if comes from someone on our team, there is a legitimate reason for us to pause and ask if he’s really on our side.

          • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

            first of all they are done at the state not federal level, they always have an opt out for religious or other reasons, we have been doing them for decades, and they have a good track record of disease control.

            I have just never viewed them as all that totalitarian nor really very controversial.

          • BA Cyclone

            You conflate the “communicable disease” argument as if this is the same as measles or influenza. It’s not and I think it’s a mistake to treat them exactly the same.

            Further many continue to make the mistake of treating as ZERO the risk of injecting chemicals into your body. There will be unintended side effects, some of which cannot be seen until the sample size is much larger than any clinical tests could feasibly offer. Sure, bad things will certainly be prevented. But nothing is 100% safe, either.

            I don’t believe the government should be in the business of nanny-state mandates, where apparently we must assume the people are cattle too stoopid to decide if they want to be injected with something to prevent from a particular Bad Thing(tm) they otherwise can’t get like influenza or the like. Purposely conflating HPV with influenza is selfishly tipping the argument to the side of “school vaccinations” for diseases that are not the same thing.

            Further: why isn’t the influenza vaccine mandatory, with an opt-out? How many people die each year from the flu, as compared to say…cervical cancer?

            Then we conflate it with Hep-B vaccines. I (infrequently) travel abroad so I’ve been vaccinated for several similar diseases. I expect my chances of STD are less than Barack Obama standing at the podium today and extolling the virtues of Adam Smith and F.A. Hayek. But I could conceivably get into some car accident or something and need an emergency transfusion or something — God knows. But this is a *choice* I conciously made. I chose to opt-in.

            I don’t think the role of government should be to constantly create miles of laundry lists of activities that I *must* do unless I go to the Opt-Out Administration and fill out the necessary paperwork — to do what I otherwise already would have done in the first place.

            You instead can do what all the other states (except Texas) did at that time: require professionals to deliver the information so parents and adults can make their own informed choices.

            For me it has more to do with where we choose to draw the line of personal responsibility. I think the bar should be relatively high when we publicly change life from opt-in (normal) to opt-out (government).

            I’m not against vaccinations in general at all. I am *for* a CDC and for food safety functions in government, etc. But at some point, I think people have to keep their fundamental right to opt-in.

          • acat

            Vaccinations are not 100% once-and-done-for-life things, they’re a heads-up to a person’s immune system about some of the nastier diseases. Some peoples’ immune systems don’t take the hint, some peoples’ overreact; both are rare, but there are risks. Same as taking a pain reliever or driving a car, as you say. Life is taking risks.

            Vaccination depends on herds. You may not want to treat people like cattle, but measles, mumps, whooping cough, etc. all do treat us that way. Larger pools of unvaccinated people cause two problems for the health care system. First, when a diesaese moves through the population, more of them will get sick. Regardless of whether public aid or private insurance is picking up the slack, there are a limited number of doctors and nurses who will treat them. Second, larger pools of unvaccinated, where the disesase can take root, provide a chance of mutation. This shows up quite well with influenza, and is why there’s a new flu shot every season.

            Regarding that flu shot, by the way, there are two groups at risk of dying from the flu, those with existing health issues where fighting off the flu puts additional stress on the body, and the elderly, for the same reason. That’s why it’s not mandated for school kids, their immune systems react faster and more effectively.

            You’re also right that the HPV vaccination is a little different because of the disease vector. This was my concern when the story first came up regarding Perry’s candidacy, that because it’s innoculating little girls against a disease they can only get by being promiscuous, it’s uncomfortable to think about, so .. when confronted with it, many seem to have a hard time staying focussed.

            Just to be clear, the HPV vaccination was largely reported as preventing cervical cancer, but there’s a related group of cancer in men that also appears to be linked to the virus, so boys should also get vaccinated.

            Your above post is a good example of this as you mingle a dislike of the herd science that’s required for vaccinations, that the vaccination program is a function of the states, rather than Federal, and merely gloss over why this particular one makes you nervous.

            I note, for instance, that you’ve written nothing about the hepatitis B vaccination. Hep-B is also most commonly transmitted through choice activities rather than involuntary ones, specifically sex or intravenous drug use, and I haven’t heard an outcry from anyone over that vaccination.

            Mew

          • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

            a newlywed virgin can get an std from their new spouse.

    • runner12

      The method of transmission is a factor with Gardasil in the sense that it is not transmitted en masse like viruses like the flu, the common cold, measles, mumps, etc. are. As you stated, it has not reached the clinical definition of an epidemic.

      Therefore, the rush to embrace this new vaccine should be met with caution. This is not paranoia, just good science. What I would be interested in is learning why the insurance companies would not cover more of the costs of the vaccine. Two possibilities are that a). HPV is not an epidemic clinically and b). It only affects two strains of HPV. Insurance companies tend to look at cold, hard numbers.

      Enter Perry. I have no doubt that his heart was in the right place here. Anyone who watched the piece on RS recently regarding the young woman who wasndying of cervical cancer could not help but be moved. But he went about it wrong, apologized for it, and we need to move on from bashing Perry on this issue.

      However, I do agree with you rcatheart that a debate on the topics you described in your final paragraph would be profitable.

      • Fla Mom

        1) Financially, it makes no sense to cover a vaccine that prevents an illness in someone who will likely not be insured by your company 20-40 years from now, when they might develop disease from not being vaccinated if you don’t cover it.

        2) The insurance companies try not to set public health policy by deciding which vaccines are worth covering, but instead follow mandates and recommendations by governmental and public health organizations for things that, in the old way of doing things*, didn’t make financial sense to cover.

        *Statistics about who would get what and/or die from it when, instead of what we have now, having changed insurance companies into cost-shifting companies.

        Fla Mom

  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    thank you for it. unfortunately for some reason redstate would not let me reply directly to it.

  • Scope

    and death from cervical cancer. From the CDC

  • http://www4.webng.com/rickbull/lostlucky/ rickbull

    I will answer it the same way.

    If you are looking for a reason NOT TO vote for Rick Perry, I can give you dozens of valid reasons. The Gardasil mandate is not one of them.

    If you are looking for a reason TO vote for Rick Perry, same store, I can give you dozens of reason to vote for him.

    BUT–if you are attempting to JUSTIFY to the rest of us that you are not going to vote for Perry because of the Gardasil mandate, it simply won’t fly.

    If you don’t want to vote for Perry, don’t vote for him. But don’t try to tell us that it was because he was born in Kenya.

    Disclaimer: No, I am not a Birfer, nor am I a 911 Trufer. Kenya is just a figure of speech.

    • BA Cyclone

      Any opportunity rational debate on this topic seems long gone. Frankly I am nearly certain the narrow point of relevancy to the GOP nomination process has long spiraled away, past the point-of-no-return.

      I don’t think anything could possibly be further discussed to add value to the nomination process by continuing to talk about it. Bitter clingers will hang on I suppose, and that is their right, but I don’t think it will add positive value to the debate at hand.

      The problems faced by the next President will be large and complex, and I think we have to stay focused on debates that are much more focused on specific topics to that vetting process.

      • kevinj84

        but I don’t get the chance to check in every day, so I am often caught catching up several days later. That being said…

        I have to totally agree with both Rickbull and BA. There seems to be a growing faction on the right consisting of Jesse Ventura/ Ron Paul/ Alex Jones conspirisists. No amount of facts will deter them from their firm belief in the alien/ 911/ government/ Jewish conspiracy to bring down the US and install the Build-a-burgers (still a great name for a restraunt) as our NWO leaders. To many of these people, Guardasil is simply the latest in a long line of nefarious attempts to override our sovereignty.

        What is being missed in all this is the fact that Perry made the vaccine so that it would be covered by insurance, and Texas is not the only state to have done so. Besides the opt-out would most likely be used by those that chose to homeschool their children anyway, so as a matter of school mandates, it would be a moot point.

        Glad to see though that there are more than a few folks here who still can use common sense and facts to make their arguments instead of the “vaccines cause autism” crowd that increasingly populate our movement.

  • positiveenerg

    You make some very sobering and coherent comments. I am sorry that so many absolutely need to hear them, but so many do. Well done.

  • momofthecastle

    and I needed to hear them. I am against mandatory vaccinations for HPV. I am also against mandatory HepB vaccines, and most of the others. I think they should be offered, and perhaps should be received, but the government has no business in my children’s sexual lives.

    But you made good points, and I appreciate them. No one should think that someone deserves disease. Attitude is important.

    Since you pointed this out, I would like to point out one other thing. HPV doesn’t take 2 or 3 decades to cause the cancer. It is maybe 2 or 3 years, I know this from a family member dealing with it.

    • acat

      and are prepared for a long wait to see an exhausted doctor when there’s an outbreak, go ahead and don’t vaccinate.

      Some of us would prefer to keep using the “herd” method of vaccination as it happens to work. Yes, gardasil and hep-b aren’t spread the same way but, as you point out, the results are equally tragic.

      Mew

  • edintexas

    This horse died several days ago. No matter how hard you try, you won’t be able to keep it going until next year’s primaries. Nor will you convince many who disagree with you by repetition.

    • edintexas

      I tried very hard to ignore your sub-title. Maybe I’m just getting too old, when I was younger I wouldn’t have even tried. But it is really difficult to ignore the comment of someone who has such a knack with nastiness. Must be terrible to have such a miserable life.