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MEMBER DIARY

A Necessary Good, or Leaving Lazy Libertarianism

”[When] men live without other security than what their own strength and their own invention shall furnish them…there is no place for industry, because the fruit thereof is uncertain: and consequently no culture of the earth; no navigation, nor use of the commodities that may be imported by sea; no commodious building; no instruments of moving and removing such things as require much force; no knowledge of the face of the earth; no account of time; no arts; no letters; no society; and which is worst of all, continual fear, and danger of violent death; and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.” – Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan

For years, I identified myself as a libertarian. I was even a Libertarian for a while. That is to say, I was a registered member of the Libertarian Party for about six months (Here is their platform). I’m not a Libertarian anymore, though, and I’m not really a libertarian either.

In the past, I’ve said that government should function, essentially, as a shell for society, arguing that things from medical research to local parks are a misuse of taxpayer money. I still advocate for limited, constitutional government, but there is a difference between the limits placed on the federal government by the Constitution and the limits placed on government at every level by libertarian ideology. Government, especially at a federal level, has the capacity to be destructive, but I think that there are many things that the government can provide better than anyone else and, for the sake of the civil society and healthy communities, should do so. (Parks, again, are the obvious example.)

At this point, there is a distinct possibility that you are groaning internally, because this may seem like a self-indulgent piece of philosophico-political puffery. For one thing, it is about libertarianism, a notoriously self-indulgent subject. For another, its author used a capital letter to distinguish between libertarianism and Libertarianism–in the first paragraph.

I hope that you’ll read on, however, if you’re interested in why I no longer buy into libertarianism or its ill-conceived, majuscular manifestations.

Libertarianism is an idiosyncratic and relatively new movement (between 40 and 60 years old, depending on where you start). It is based on the ideas of Ayn Rand, Murray Rothbard, Milton Friedman (a hero of mine), F.A. Hayek (whom I admire), Leonard Read (author of the brilliant essay “I, Pencil”), Rose Wilder Lane (Laura Ingalls Wilder’s daughter and possibly the author of the Little House books), and a few others. Most of the thinkers whose ideas form the backbone of libertarianism were radicals of one stripe of another, and this may explain why it is likely to remain a fringe movement, except when its palatable, realistic ideas can be integrated into the Republican Party platform.

A Note About Capitalization
A lot of people distinguish libertarianism, on the one hand, from Libertarianism, on the other. Distinguishing a word’s meaning by using lowercase and capital letters is often used to indicate fervency: “I RILLY MENE IT WHEN I SAY PEPLE LIKE U SUK N I HATE U”. This is popular with teenagers and with people who comment on the Internet (message boards, YouTube) when they want to get a point across (In all fairness, I am fairly confident, based on the use of diction and logic, that only teenagers comment on YouTube videos). Obviously, this is not the way that I’ve used the capital L.

Capitalization is also used to denote a term which requires special knowledge to understand: “My Engram detected a mass of Body Thetans that should be dispersed through Audits and massive doses of Niacin as I cross over The Bridge to Total Freedom to escape the power of Xenu.” This means, “I am a movie star,” “I want to be a movie star,” or “I believe that science fiction novels written by L. Ron Hubbard should have a Dewey Decimal number in the 200s.” All carry the implication that the speaker is an imbecile who takes dangerously high doses of certain B vitamins.

Another convention holds that capital letters weigh more, such as “His” instead of “his” for anything belonging to the Creator.

This is probably the closest way to my use of capitalization here. The form “libertarian” generally refers to those who hold a philosophy that seeks to maximize human freedom in all things (I call these individuals philosophical libertarians), and “Libertarian” is meant to denote members of the Libertarian Party and political independents who are dedicated to advancing the libertarian worldview (I call these movement libertarians).

This section provides one problem with libertarianism: Its proponents are often obtuse.

Another Note On Terminology
Over time, I have become increasingly delibertarianized, or (if you prefer) dislibertarianated.

There is significant debate in libertarian circles over which of these terms is correct, with most agreeing that if you use the wrong term, you are not a libertarian and never were to begin with and, furthermore, that your opinion is not worth a damn, and you are probably a statist. A small minority led by video store clerk, part-time fry cook, and registered genius Konrad Übermeister (birth name: Phil Davis) insists on the phrase “decreasingly libertarianesque”, but his group (the Transhuman Paleojunctivist Resistance, or TPR) is considered anathema to most libertarians because they support maximum legal levels of strychnine in LSD (with the government imposing fines on bathtub acid factories that use too much), agree with certain bestiality laws, and seriously misunderstand Heidegger’s views on phenomenology.

That paragraph sums up more problems with libertarianism: Many of its members are, to put it gently, slightly silly, and not ridiculing them is extremely difficult. There’s a sort of open mike night feel to conversations about libertarianism, with members of various sub-groups denouncing members of other subgroups as not being true libertarians, not being libertarian enough, or being logically inconsistent and not adhering to first principles. Here’s an example from anarcho-capitalist crackpot Murray Rothbard explaining how Milton Friedman was not a true libertarian. Friedman was willing to compromise and work with actual politicians to do things like end the draft and promote school choice, and actually getting things done irritates many libertarians to no end.

Birchers, Birthers, and Bellicose Believers
It is probably a good idea to mention Zebulon R. Spoonbeander, best known for his books Lincoln: Homosexual, Tyrant, Sociopath and Elizabeth Cady Stanton’s Secret Mullato Love Child. He is considered by many Ron Paul fanatics to be the greatest mind of our age, because he has explained with inescapable logic how moon rocks, gold bullion, and shark teeth are the only true money in the universe (outside of Saturn). Paulestinians face a problem when extolling Zebulon Spoonbeander’s brilliance to people who vote, actually try to make government smaller, attempt to decrease the national debt, and participate in society: He is a six foot tall, imaginary, pink bunny.

Many people drawn to movement libertarianism have views that seem a teensy bit odd or totally out of touch with reality. This makes them natural bedfellows with the John Birch Society and the birther movement. It is important to note that not all libertarians fit into this category, but there is enough overlap between the ideology of some (the Ron Paul/Lew Rockwell faction), the Birchers, and the birthers that they can be lumped together as way-out loons.

One may object, at this point, that I am using ad hominem attacks to discredit people with whom I disagree. This is not accurate, however. When a belief is loony, and when one objects to its looniness, then pointing out that its proponents are loons is not ad hominem. It is a perfectly reasonable objection.

The prevalence of crazies seems to be an inescapable problem of movement libertarianism. What about the deeper issue, though? What of the wider question of philosophical libertarianism itself?

My Criticism, Crystallized: Lazy Libertarianism Refudiated
Libertarianism is an easy way out of difficult problems. It is a safe refuge for those who have a vision of humanity in which individuals can be objective and act out of rational self-interest without harming others. It is profoundly lazy and serves as an excuse for not coming up with reasonable, workable policy positions. Why do the hard work of legislation, including compromise and imperfect solutions, when one can provide a pat answer eliminating the government’s role and avoid responsibility for its failures?

A great example is drug legalization. The War On Drugs has been extremely destructive, especially when coupled with the War On Poverty (Both have harmed economically disadvantaged individuals), and we need to come up with ways to reduce its harmful effects. The libertarian answer is easy: Legalize drugs. It is unknown, however, if this would make anything better, and considering the prevalence of alcohol abuse, there is good cause to worry that drug abuse (with its often-greater risks) would increase significantly with easier access. If this happens, it is a certainty that child abuse, domestic violence, and other violent crimes would increase. It’s hard to see the libertarian solution as working in the real world.

In real life, your self-interest often comes at the expense of mine, and we need a governing authority to be an arbiter. To put it a bit more bluntly, your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins. There is no credible historical evidence to suggest that people are benevolent enough to watch out for other people’s interests as closely as they watch out for their own.

Humans are not ideal beings, much less particularly rational ones. To be sure, reason is important, and I attempt to use it when analyzing complex situations and making decisions, but like all human faculties, it is imperfect and imperfectible, subject to the natural constraints that are part of our species.

Libertarianism as proposed a form of government is extremely close to anarchy (Some forms are outright anarchic), and anarchy precedes tyranny, period. History predicts the future pretty well, and human nature has never changed.

Philosophical libertarianism makes broad assertions about how people get along, how government should work, and the like. These are often abstract, based on deductions from first principles, rather than observations and the results of various social experiments. It is proudly and profoundly Jeffersonian and recalls the words of Thomas Paine:

Society in every state is a blessing, but Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one.

This sounds nice, but it isn’t true. Government isn’t a necessary evil. It’s a necessary good, and humanity cannot organize without it, much less thrive.

The civil society is based on the success of three sectors: industry, charity, and polity (government). All three are necessary components of a functioning society, as long as they stay within the proper parameters.

History has not been kind to Jefferson or Paine. Rather, Hamilton and Burke have prevailed, and those who hold the former as heroes over the latter ignore how Jefferson governed once he became President. Individuals who fashion themselves as revolutionaries, saying that the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants, are glad to ignore the Louisiana Purchase, the expedition of Lewis and Clark, and the rest of Jefferson’s presidential legacy.

But I digress.

The chief political problem that we have in America today is that the federal government significantly exceeds its constitutional mandate and parameters. The solution includes the restoration of federalism, a federal government that delegates to states and municipalities those functions that are best fulfilled locally. Note that this is not a libertarian wonderland where government only paves roads, has a handful of soldiers to prevent invasions, and enforces contract law. (My favorite example of what one might look like is Rapture, an underwater city in the dystopian video game BioShock”. It is not pretty.)

If government were evil, then the Magna Carta, Mayflower Compact, and United States Constitution would be dread topics in history classes, to be studied alongside the Reign of Terror and the Spanish Inquisition. They aren’t, however. They are studied alongside the other great human achievements that promote rights, well-being, and the advancement of liberty.

Liberty and revolution belong to libertarians and patriots alike. Make no mistake, however. American patriotism is rooted in the Revolution of 1776 (America) and its predecessor, the Glorious Revolution of 1688 (England). Libertarianism is rooted in the Revolution of 1789 (France). We all know how that worked out.

These are debates worth having, and they are worth winning. Ideas matter.

A party platform focused on individual liberty within the context of a moral, civil society is one that will deliver victory, but a platform that is truly libertarian will bring failure. Whether or not they can articulate it, most people know that without a government that secures individual liberty, promotes prosperity, and maintains safety and civility, the American civil society would collapse, and for far too many of us, life would be solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.

Cross-posted at The Joy of Reason.

COMMENTS

  • acat

    An interesting read, to say the least.

    Yes, a good percentage of libertarians (of either case) are .. batty.

    I look forward to more discussion on this.

    Mew

    • Scope

      if you posted your libertarian views, with respect to the diary, rather than waiting to hear what everyone else has to say, that you can go after. Do you have your own internal views of your libertarian policy, without any input from anyone else? That should be a given with someone who has stated so many libertarian opinions in the past. Are you just waiting to see what direction the wind blows by a finger in the wind policy, and then you will correct those you don’t agree with, rather than coming out with your interpretation based on your own inner beliefs. That does seem to be a problem with libertarians doesn’t it? Kinda like, I’ll know it when I see it, or maybe not.

      • acat

        about disappointing you.

        After your various nearly-incoherent anti-libertarian rants, in which you’ve repeatedly demonstrated that you can’t tell movement from philosophical from anarchro .. I fail to see where you’re really interested in a “discussion” at all – you’re merely looking for the next target for your venomous bile.

        First it was everyone who didn’t like Palin, then it was everyone who liked her too much, now it’s people who may share your goals but not your beliefs.

        I have no interest in feeding your needs further. Good day, madam.

        Mew

        • Scope

          that I am confused about the different sub-groups, or philosophies of each of the individuals calling themselves libertarians. So far, with the libertarians that post here, the varying ideas have gone the full gambit. Other than the formal Libertarian group, that has posted their beliefs/positions on their website, there doesn’t seem to be any clear definition. I’ve seen libertarians here posting comments, that can fall into what GG describes as movement, philosophical and anarchy, with the same person posting a philosophical type comment on one thread, and a movement comment on another etc. I’ve seen some saying that government has no business being in the marriage business, government should not take any responsibility as to safety nets, and that should fall to churches and private charity, and that drugs should be legalized. I asked at one time, when does your freedom end and mine start, and vice versa. The only answer I got was- 5 feet in front of you. I’ve seen comments against zoning laws, and against having any military members, and bases located in foreign nations. I’ve seen comments agreeing with Ron Paul that the property owners of the property where the GZM was to be built had the right and freedom to build anything they wanted on that property. I’ve read some libertarian views that even radical muslims have the right and freedom to practice the religion of their choice, right here in the US, even though it isn’t only about freedom of religion, radical islamists combine their religion with political and government philosophy.

          Gee acat, I wonder why I am so confused, and misinformed. None of you have yet written any extensive diary, or even comment explaining what your description of libertarianism is. Could that be because you all refuse to put yourselves into a box that you can’t debate/argue your way out of? I would say that if there was a scale from only supporting a few minor libertarian positions to anarchy, 1 to 10 would be insufficient, it would rather need to be 1 through 100.

          • cej

            is the logical extension of the moral principle that all interactions between people should be voluntary and peaceful. That is why, to a partisan observer, libertarians hold seemingly idiosyncratic positions like the desire to legalize drugs and the desire to slash government spending to 0.

          • Scope

            has never existed, and will never exist, while evil still exists, and as a hint, evil isn’t on the down hill slope. I don’t think the radical islamists got your message, as they still want to kill the infidels, and the better for them if they cut the heads off of the infidels, and offer them up for special blessings from Allah. I don’t think that murderers have gotten your message, as the incident of murder is on the rise. I don’t think that rapists got your message, and are still raping women. I don’t see any less incidence of sticky fingers, as theft and larceny are still on the rise. I really don’t think that the radicals, that are using children as human shields got your message, but, that isn’t new, the enemy Vietnamese used women and children to kill our soldiers, and themselves. Again, the answer is as good as saying that my rights end, and yours begin within 5 feet of me, and vice versa. Speaking of libertarians use of the word logical, I’ve read that they have even found a way, using an algebraic equation, to prove that 1 equals 2.

            Here is a great website post arguing the fallacy of some who try to use logical arguments that are not logical at all, but manage to fool the unsuspecting. I’ll put your description of libertarianism in the Limited Scope category- The theory which explains can only explain one thing.

            http://www.onegoodmove.org/fallacy/toc.htm

          • cej

            Violence can obviously be opposed with violence. Self-defense is morally acceptable under the principles of libertarianism.. You are not to initiate violence on another. If someone is to attack you or steal your things, you may attack them because_they started it_

            Think about these things. Libertarian Republicans repeatedly say that national defense is the number one constitutionally mandated function of the federal government. However, it is abhorrent to wage wars of aggression. We must attack the people who actually are responsible for attacking us. Radical Muslims love it when we go occupy their countries and discard our Constitutionally guaranteed freedoms because it fuels a deadly feedback loop of violence and warfare – we go there, ruin their countries, and get rightly blamed for it.

            Notice how the countries we’ve mainly left alone are all starting to revolt against their miserable authoritarian rulers? If we stay out of the way good things can happen in other countries.

            9/11 was a horrible, horrible day, but it was not the end of the world. Al Qaeda is estimated to have only about 100 members – that’s how unpopular the group is in the Muslim world.

            Again, think about how peace can happen in our time by enshrining principles of voluntary action and exchange (peace) and violently attacking people and institutions who themselves are violent. Read about the non-aggression principle. Maybe you will like what you see – I’d just recommend reading about the philosophy on any number of websites or wikipedia articles, you will be surprised with how much you agree.

        • Scope

          Bringing up Palin in your reply was nothing more than a distraction away from my original comment asking if you would describe libertarianism in your own words, without waiting for others to post their comments. I’ve been asking the libertarians here to please describe what they believed to be libertarianism, rather than reading hundreds of individual comments, and trying to determine just what overall philosophy one falls into. It was also an attempt to discredit me, and my positions as to Palin. Long before you were here, I was fighting against some really nasty derogatory attacks on her, that really were meant only to make here look like a buffon or worse. Some of those attacks involved her gender, and she was accused of having gotten to the political level she had because of “lateral moves.” Yes, I defended her. I have said many times that she has done great things for conservatives, especially in the mid-terms. On the other hand, I was sickened by a very few who constantly portrayed her as the next messiah, and expressed those views. One thing I never did, was say that I supported her in the Republican primary for the 2012 presidential race. If you interpret that as my changing my views as to Palin, than you are also saying the same about many others here that share my position. The Liberals constantly attack those that they don’t agree with, and turn it into personal attacks on a regular basis. Most conservatives I know are much more intelligent than to fall into the Alinsky mode.

          • pliggy

            This diary is very interesting, and has made me question my own libertarianism.

          • http://www.thejoyofreason.com Greg Garrison
      • Doc Holliday

        but this one doesn’t have the sting you usually have because it makes no sense. Acat replied directly to the diary, what’s this “waiting to hear what everyone else has to say” stuff? I am confused because you usually try to trash others with better material, but this post just doesn’t make any sense, oh well.

        and no I don’t want to talk to you, EVER, just defending acat.

  • http://www.thejoyofreason.com Greg Garrison

    This evening has been unexpectedly eventful. I went to my first big precinct meeting and walked out a precinct chairman. Cold Warrior’s excellent work pushed me to say, “Yes,” when they asked if I wanted to become a PC.

    Anyway, life at home was as eventful as one can expect when a house is overstuffed with kids and pets. I appreciate everybody’s kind comments and will reply, as best I can, tomorrow. Now, where did I put that Chinese food? …

    • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
    • http://www.800cart.com Ron Robinson

      Come back and write a full diary about this, Greg! Congratulations.

    • http://www.theprecinctproject.wordpress.com ColdWarrior

      Thank you for getting into the real ball game of politics. Your kids will thank you someday, too. And they’ll be really thankful.

      Looking forward to your future writings about your experiences inside your new home, your local Republican Party committee.

      Thank you again,

      ColdWarrior

    • JadedByPolitics

      to hoot and holler and stomp our feet in your diary about your taking the FIGHT into the Party! (do not deny us…lol)

    • http://www.thejoyofreason.com Greg Garrison

      I just joined PROCINCT a couple of days ago (the day before I became precinct chairman). I’m a bit nervous but excited. The woman in charge of the precinct meeting, who encouraged me to be the PC, said that the county party has precinct training sessions on Saturdays, so between that and y’all’s expertise, I should be in a pretty good place. Thanks for the encouragement!

  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    I have identified myself as a Libertarian/conservative or Conservative/libertarian for many of the reasons you name. Many actual libertarians are not cogent, they are the types of people who will readily allow the good to be the enemy of the great.

    And libertarian thought, if taken to it’s logical conclusions results in anarchy.

    There are however two thing’s I would disagree with. Point one, in referring to libertarianism as a self indulgent philosophy. This is something I hear a lot, and it might be true for some people. But it does not really wash.

    You see, if you truly believe in the primacy of the individual you have to give up a lot. You have to give up trying to bend other s to your will. You give up trying to control the actions of your neighbor. And that is a really big thing to give up! most people on both left and right are motivated by that at least to some extent.

    The other point is when you say that Government is not evil. Ostensibly that is true. but Government is certainly something to be feared. It is Government that has caused most of the agony and death in human history. At the same time, only government can guarantee freedom. So, at best it is like fire, something that can be used but must always be watched carefully.

    • aesthete

      Also, can you send me an email @ aesthetic_tucsonan@yahoo.com?

    • clowngirl

      “Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force! And like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearsome master. It should never be left for a moment to irresponsible action”

      - George Washington

      I agree that it would be a huge mistake to forget the potential dangers of government power.

      I do tend to think Libertarianism is a self indulgent philosophy in that it isn’t, in my opinion, a serious attempt at a solution for governing a nation – and because I think it very self indulgent to do things like run candidates in important elections they can’t possibly win but which they could possibly spoil for the more freedom oriented candidate.

      But that isn’t to diminish the efforts of individual Libertarians who often work tirelessly and sacrifice much for what they believe. And who are often passionate about freedom, the free market, etc. none of which are particularly self indulgent.

    • http://www.thejoyofreason.com Greg Garrison

      I’m not sure that I’d agree that most on the right and left are motivated by a desire to control their fellows’ behavior. It’s not a desire to control behavior per se, but a belief that the government’s role is reducing the harm to victims of a particular behavior.

      It seems to me that progressives generally accentuate the need to protect people from economic “exploitation” and from themselves (e.g. fatty foods, salt, etc). Conservatives focus more on violent crimes and violations of fundamental human rights. (Yes, I’m way oversimplifying.)

      There’s some focus on moral issues on both sides, but I think that it’s usually out of concern for the effects of crimes, whether it’s a prostitute being exploited by her pimp or a child being beaten or raped by her mother’s strung-out boyfriend. Everyone believes that government should enforce morality; they just draw the line in different places.

      Now, sometimes the laws and policies have unintended consequences (e.g. war on drugs), but when we think in terms of moral absolutes (purity, say, for a Huckabee and liberty for an LP staffer), we tend to err, I think. Total liberty (Libertarian-style) or the elimination of social ills (SoCon-style) are likely to create significant social costs with marginal gains at the tails. I’m not sure how well I phrased that.

      I think that libertarianism tends to be more ideological than mainstream conservatism or liberalism, because it seeks to guarantee liberty. Full stop. That is its moral code that it wants enshrined in law.

      Where I am (and where I think you and aesthete are also) is a position where I would like to see liberty maximized within the context of the civil society, where government has a considerably larger role than the one suggested by libertarianism but a smaller role than the one promulgated by liberalism. I’ve chosen to drop the libertarian descriptor because it’s an unnecessary distraction.

      • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

        with mainstream conservatives are exactly at those places where they tend to distrust their fellow citizen and want to have a say so over their neighbor’s personal life.

        I am NOT talking about abortion which is a life issue. But certainly it would include the war on drugs, but also things like blue laws, harassing businesses who sell alcohol or pornography, closing down nudie bars. etc. These things are primarily the area of local government so They often get a wink and a nod, But they still amount to trying to make your neighbor behave in a way in which you agree.

        The other major area I have problems with is Foreign policy, not that I am an isolationist like Ron Paul. But I do beleive that in the name of security, we have often let the state department, the intelligence agencies, and the military run roughshod over neighboring nations and sometimes our own citizens, and all at a tremendous cost.

        Now, all of that might be justifiable if it made us more secure, but in my view it does not. The state department has done really stupid things, like for instance giving billions of dollars to corrupt Pakistan in order to “balance” the power of India, which is a stable democracy. The cold war is rife with examples of shooting ourselves in the foot, and things have not gotten any better.

        • clowngirl

          I have mixed thoughts and feelings about the drug war. On the one hand, I do think that making drugs illegal has a lot of harmful side effects (it creates a black market and all that goes with it, allows for drugs with unknown potentcies and possibly poisonous mixtures which increases the incidence of overdose and death, has been used as a reason to expand police powers and in some cases has led to corruption, etc.) but I am far from persuaded that selling people a highly damaging and extremely addictive substance qualifies as a victimless crime. I am very much persuaded that taking drugs is
          *bad* both for individuals and society.

          Libertarians I’ve talked to have supported the legalization of drugs for many different reasons. For some it was all about self ownership – you can eat rat poison if you like, it’s not the government’s place to stop you. For others it was about moral relativism – some go to church to feel good, others shoot heroine who’s to say one’s better than the other? For still others, it was about legalizing their personal habit.

          Others – who were more moderate would express concerns about things like the 4th amendment and wanting to regulate drugs- those were the only ones I could even partially agree with.

          So, on these issues we just disagree. I don’t really agree with zoning laws or whatever it is with regard to nudie bars. IMO they shouldn’t, for example, be right across from a preschool.

          Interacting with Libertarians I came to realize that I thought there fiscal conservatism was too extreme – but the socially liberal stuff, right to commit suicide stuff I really didn’t agree with at all. Hence my eventual migration to the GOP…

          • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

            How are you so sure that legalization is a mistake? And, is there any middle ground between a war on drugs and legalization.? The problems that you mention with the drug war is just the tip of the iceberg, like several dozen citizens killed mistakenly in drug raids, add to that the growing militarization and centralization of our law enforcement, and the destabilization of our neighbor to the south because of our appetite for illegal drugs. How about the way that drug war mania has caused doctors to under-prescribe painkillers for patients? OUCH!

            I agree with the arguments about personal freedom, but for me the best argument is pragmatic. We have about a century of data to show now that prohibition does more harm than good.

            Even if you want to keep the most dangerous drugs illegal there has to be some better way of offering amnesty and treatment to those who want to get help.

            I think that the onus is not upon libertarians at this point, the onus is upon the drug warriors to explain why we should continue such a horribly failed policy.

          • http://www.thejoyofreason.com Greg Garrison

            Hey Kyle, some quick responses:

            “[T]he onus is upon the drug warriors to explain why we should continue such a horribly failed policy.”

            No. The onus is on people who want to change the structure of how we deal with illegal drugs. I agree with you that the WoD is a disaster, but if libertarians want to change the fundamentals of how we deal with drugs, then they must demonstrate that their proposals would not be more harmful than existing laws. Implementing new policy based on theory and a political vision is not good politics, and certainly not conservative. That said, I’d like to see a greater focus on treatment and addiction prevention, but the most popular addiction treatment models (all based on AA’s 12 steps) are badly flawed and extremely ineffective.

            Progressives often thrust untested theories and visions onto society, sometimes with net positive and sometimes with net negative effects. We would be wise not to do the same, in my opinion.

            Foreign policy: I don’t know enough about how our Cold War policies contributed to the downfall of the USSR to say that they weren’t the right thing to do. The problem with the libertarian vision of non-intervention is that advancing American interests may require intervention in another country’s politics or

          • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

            No, the onus is still on a horrible failed system no matter what you say. we have more people in prison than any other society, we have destabilized our southern neighbor, and for what? Drug use as a percentage of the population has pretty much followed demographic changes. In other words, our drug war didn’t make a dent in it.

            Now you say,”Oh! but we have to continue this utterly failed policy because what you advocate is an untried theory!” Ridiculous. In the first place even if it was untried, it would be worth trying since what we have now sure as hell don’t work.

            But second of all it is not an untried theory. Many nations do not have the sort of draconian laws we have and guess what? They also do not have as bad a drug problem. Banned substances in other nations are often treated as misdemeanors and the people are put into a rehab program. Thus they remain a possible productive citizen.

            We also have the entire twelve year experiment in alcohol prohibition to look at. Many people say, “Well alcohol is different, it was already in widespread use”. But that is also partly incorrect. A large portion of the population, including most females prior to 1919, used alcohol rarely or not at all. Prohibition changed that, it made it cool to go into speakeasies and get hammered. Like all prohibition, it made things worse.

          • http://www.thejoyofreason.com Greg Garrison

            Let’s imagine for a moment that a terrorist gets his hands on a WMD, and a nation is harboring the terrorist. We’ll pick on Lichtenstein (the country, not the artist), because they never make international news, and Middle Eastern countries get way too much press already. Let’s imagine that the president of Lichtenstein just became a Wahhabist, and they’re providing protection to Osama bin Laden and a nuke, and they plan on firing it on Great Britain if we don’t give in to their demands.

            The United States, in this event, would have to re-evaluate its policy toward Lichtenstein and have the debate of whether or not to strike first (We do, Osama gets shot point blank by the hardened veteran played by Bruce Willis, Michael Bay provides the pyrotechnics, everybody goes home happy). Without such a precipitating event, however, our policy toward Lichtenstein stays the same (whatever that is). We can’t invade Lichtenstein for giggles.

            Okay, imagine a second scenario. Gun runners from Guadalahara have begun shooting Americans on their way to Canada. When it first starts, we have a small but appropriate response. They increase their firepower, we increase ours, etc. The situation escalates incrementally until we are in a de facto state of war with Guadalaharan gun runners.

            If they said, “We’ve had enough. We give up,” then we would return to a state of peace with them. That would be a change in the fundamentals of US/Guadalaharan gun runner relations. Barring such a change, we would continue the policy that evolved, unless and until someone convinces us that it’s foolish. Without a change in the fundamentals, the person demanding the change is responsible for demonstrating that and how it’s a good idea.

            See where I’m going with this?

            There have been no fundamentals in the drug trade. There is no crisis precipitating a change in policy. Is the War On Drugs harmful and counter-productive? Probably. Maybe. But unless someone argues against it successfully enough to change it, then it continues until there is a crisis propelling a change. That doesn’t make the War On Drugs a good thing, but it’s United States policy.

            If you want to change it, then you are required to demonstrate why your specific change is the best one. No one is required to demonstrate why the current policy is better than yours, because it’s already in place, and its a known known. Drug legalization is fraught with known unknowns and unknown unknowns*, which is why it is inherently riskier than existing policy, even if it happens to be less harmful (which I am not asserting, merely allowing theoretically)

            * Referencing Rumsfeld: “[T]here are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns

          • http://www.thejoyofreason.com Greg Garrison

            penultimate paragraph should say,”There have been no changes to fundamentals in the drug trade.”

          • aesthete

            that analysis assumes a number of things.

            First, that the motivations of drug warriors have been benign attempts to resolve some problem that can be objectively and empirically measured, and that most people agree is a problem. Your arguments would not transfer to policies like the Jim Crow laws, Japanese Internment, or Apartheid; the intent behind both regimens was far too different to reasonably claim that the onus is on those who want to change the status quo. So it is with laws regarding drug use; historically, the motivations of drug regulators between 1900-1960, both within and without government, were to eradicate what was thought of as a part of Oriental, hispanic, or black subcultures.

            Secondly, it assumes that there has been prior inspection of the effects of the drug war from its supporters. There is nothing close to that, and never has been. There is a difference between a status quo that has been challenged in the past, and found superior, and a status quo which exists purely from inertia and lack of knowledge.

            Moreover, there are plenty of proposed retreats from the WoD, ranging from a complete lack of regulation, to handing it off to the states, to simply decriminalizing. It is not accurate to categorize most of these responses as unthinking; as kyle notes, the extreme adverse impacts of the WoDs is sufficient cause for re-evaluation, and there are many compelling arguments showing both that the WoD does little to resolve what it is intended to resolve, and that liberalization would lead to an increase in human welfare (for myself, I’ve seen empirical studies tackling it from an economist’s perspective, but I’ve heard that there are good sociological studies, as well).

            IMO, the situation (much like the status quo vis a vis abortion) is sufficiently barbaric and inimical to human rights to justify an immediate withdrawal. However, I like to think of myself as simply being extremely conservative on the issue, since we spent far more time as a country without the War on Drugs than with it.

          • clowngirl

            But regarding prohibition: didn’t they make it illegal after it had already been legal for centuries and people were already in the habit of drinking it.

            I don’ t buy the argument that making drugs illegal does nothing to discourage use. It makes them less available, risky to purchase and risky to use. And it makes them more expensive. Another deterrent.

            At the age of 8 I watched “Lady Sings the Blues” and decided right then and there that I’d never take drugs. But if the searing image of Billy Holliday going after her boyfriend with a frying pan, only by luck not bashing his head in, while in withdrawal from heroine were mixed in with constant advertisements – showing people enjoying heroine, infomercials from folks claiming they could have a recreational habit, and I could buy it at Duane Reade any time for $9.99 (though I expect that’d only be the first time price) I expect I’d have been tempted to try it by now.

            I’ve seen a lot of pro-legalization literature that makes claims like “Only 8% of heroine users actually get addicted”* and I just don’t think it’s true. How would they even know how many people use heroine given it’s illegality?

            * I don’t remember if that was the actual number but it was something in the single digits.

            I have mixed feelings about decriminalizing use — I do think people should get help —-but….. this is going to sound callous, I’m really not sure we should make it too easy. There shoudl be a healthy fear of royally screwing up your life by taking drugs. Not an easy path to recovery at others expense. I definitely don’t think taxpayers should be forced to pay for rehab. I don’t think it should be impossible or that drug users should rot in prison without treatment but I think drug use rightfully has a stigma. but at the same time, I don’t think we should be spending a lot of money, or wasting prison space on drug USERS. So yeah – maybe something more restitution oriented…. community service and repaying the cost of drug treatment maybe…

            It’s not that I have no concern for the state telling people what to do—- but I do think there are some (limited) responsibilities that rightfully go along with being a citizen. Among other things limited taxation, and being productive in some fashion – not throwing your life away taking drugs.

            You could say that it follows that I don’t think a person has a “right” to be an alcoholic – and that is true. I don’t there there is a moral right to alcoholism and being an alcoholic is not illegal but: 1. Driving drunk 2. Beating anyone up while drunk and any number of other anti-social activities sometimes commited while drinking ARE illegal.

            I know there are grey areas – and it doesn’t fit neatly into one overiding principle as Libertarians would like – but I do see Alcohol as different from heroine – and with regard to the efficacy argument. Prohibiting alcohol backfired so there’s no point in trying it again. Prohibiting heroine and cocaine seems to be somewhat effective in discouraging use – so I think it dangerous and irresponsible to change that,

            I won’t lose sleep if marijuana is legalized – as is already basically happening in many states. And I do find the “gateway drug” argument somewhat persuasive.

          • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

            we have a nation where literally tens of millions of people have smoked pot at one time or the other but the level of hard drug use has remained fairly consistent.

            As for whether some sort of de emphasis or decriminalization of hard drugs would create more users, I would say that it might, for a while, But do not look down on the power of society and education. We Have reduced the number of smokers over the years by a large amount, and cigarettes are legal.

            To think that taking another approach would just open the floodgates of human misery is preposterous. In the long term, if it is done right it would lower drug use because you would no longer have the pusher and organized crime element. (well they would still exist, but not as much money for them.)

          • clowngirl

            I didn’t say that “taking another approach would open the floodgates of human misery” and if that’s how you interpret my comments you’re not really seeing where I’m coming from so let me try again.

            I’ll skip straight to my primary reason for thinking drugs like heroine, 8 ball, speed, x, LSD, Angeldust, etc., etc., etc. should remain illegal. It is my perception that while legal substances such as alcohol and cigarettes can create HUGE problems – they are not on the same scale or even in the same ballpark as those created by hard drugs.

            I’ve never heard of a girl resorting to prostitution to support a nicotine habit. In no case that I’ve heard of has anybody ever gone on a shooting spree while high on cigarettes. I have heard – many times – of such things happening while a person is high on crack or in withdrawal from heroine.

            It is my understanding that certain drugs induce what is effectively a psychotic state- a complete break with reality beyond anything that alcohol could ever do. This has the potential to render a person much more dangerous than any legal drug.

            If a person wants to slowly kill themselves by smoking – I think that they’re stupid and strongly think that any and every law forbidding health insurance companies from charging them a premium fully commeasurate with their level of risk needs to be repealed, I strongly support any employer who chooses not to hire smokers due to their reduced productivity, etc. and I absolutely do not consider it a “right” for someone to come into a public place where people have paid admission (such as a football stadium) and start exposing others to second hand smoke.

            If a person wants to drink – I would hope that they’d do so responsibly. But if they don’t, I’m very supportive of the fact that drunk driving not only carries a reasonably high fine, and possible jail time and it leaves a person a criminal record -but can also result in the driver’s auto insurance rates doubling, tripling or even quadrupling. I also support phasing out welfare programs – therefore forcing people to continue to hold a job – which may provide incentives for others to stop drinking or at least make sure their drinking doesn’t get out of control.

            I have no problem with seeing a drunk driver who killed someone charged with vehicular homicide and sent to jail for years,

            In other words, I think that the problems associated with alcohol and tobacco are manageable & many people are capable of using both responsibly and so I see no justification for banning the substance.

            My perceptions regarding “hard drugs” are very different due to:

            1. the (apparent) temporary psychosis – which has been known to cause things like hallucinations and shooting sprees
            2. (my perception that) withdrawal being so horrific as to lead some users to do virtually anything for drugs

            I think that, for the most part, government should stay out of people’s way but there are some behaviors that are so extreme, and so predictably dangerous -as to be rightfully prohibited. Taking heroine, crack, LSD, etc. in my opinion belongs in that category.

  • clowngirl

    Not only do you thoughtfully and thoroughly explore the many pitfalls with Libertarian and libertarianism, but you do it with humor and style. Very well written!

    I was friendly with a Libertarian chapter in NY for some time and for awhile described myself as independent but with “libertarian leanings”. Many are passionate about freedom and the free market, I’ve come to appreciate their vigilance in seemingly small issues ( for example, I visited a meeting once and this guy got up and started railing against seat belt laws – and going on about how it should be a major focus for the LP. At first it was like “what? Is it really that important – but on further reflection could see the point. Tyranny can creep in through little, seemingly innocuous regulations – ugh now I’m sounding like a crazy :P ) and I think it is good that there is another – outsider group- raising concerns about expansion of government power by either party – because I think partisans can sometimes be blinded by party loyalty or by a desire to accomplish a desired end. (though I will say I thought that a lot more before I started reading RedState and seeing how often conservatives due criticize their own party – and thoughtfully consider if it’s leaders are on the right track)

    But there is a lack of balance – and even of common sense, and ( I particularly agree with you) that Libertarianism is lazy and GROSSLY oversimplifies very complicated issues. And, at least the Manhattan Chapter, seemed way too interested in protecting the “right” to be depraved, irresponsible and immoral. They refused, for quite a long time, to ban or even moderate a guy who repeatedly posted outright lies about others in the group – and actually defended the right to commit libel.

    I agree very much with what you said about humans not being these ideal rational beings who can be counted on to always look out for others interests.

    I’ve talked to individual libertarians who have conceded that there are some things which pretty much have to be collectively funded but still did not think there needed to be ANY taxation. “Voluntary contribution” would take care of it. People would voluntarily pay for necessary things. This from a person who just said. “I never asked for a police force – why should I have to pay for it?!”

    Ok, enough, Loved your diary!

    • clowngirl

      I just wrote that “the Manhattan Chapter” of the LP was way to interested in defending the depraved, irresponsible and immoral. I should have said “Members of the Manhattan Chapter” because I was sharing my perceptions based on what I heard from individual members ( and my perceptions likely reflect the fact that this was an area where I disagreed which may have amplified my idea of how much such matters were emphasized) I don’t think the MLP ever pursued such matters as a chapter in any official capacity. Just wanted to clarify

      And I noticed several typos. Apologies and I’ll try and remember to proofread next time. :(

      • http://www.thejoyofreason.com Greg Garrison

        See below. Sorry about that.

      • aesthete

        Read some Milt Friedman, Thomas Sowell, and Walter Williams: generally speaking, the mainstream economist libertarians and the CATO libertarians are much more grounded in reality than their estranged brethren in the Libertarian Party.

        • clowngirl

          Occassionally see what CATO has to say and love Thomas Sowell (though I didn’t know he was a libertarian) and Milt Friedman. Not familiar with Walter Williams.

          • aesthete

            He is a black economist whose themes are similar to Sowell’s, but who is unique and engaging enough to read on his own merits. Here’s a link to his column at GMU: http://econfaculty.gmu.edu/wew/articles.html

  • http://www.thejoyofreason.com Greg Garrison

    I’m glad that you enjoyed the piece. I had fun writing it, as you can probably tell. I know exactly what you mean about defending the right to be depraved. We had an interesting debate on RedState a couple of months ago about Michael Vick, with some saying that animal cruelty laws are wrong because dogs are property, and laws banning animal cruelty are a violation of property rights (essentially).

    My experience with the Libertarian Party of North Carolina was pretty amusing. When I switched my registration from Libertarian to Republican, I got an email from one of the LPNC folks confirming that I wanted to break my party affiliation.

    I responded that I did: “Considering how disastrous the Democrats have been, I no longer
    want to make the perfect the enemy of the good. While not perfect, the

    • clowngirl

      with Libertarians. The refusal to be practical.

      The North Carolina group, confronted with the FACT that, given that we do have a 2 party system, the Republican party is the only group capable of defeating the Democrats – dismisses it as an irrelevant “theory” and sets up some false equivalency.

      Of all the things that have annoyed me about the LP, the willingness to run nuisance candidates and refusal to deal with reality is by far the biggest. I spend a fair amount of time trying to convince some of them to put their (in some cases considerable) time, energy and resources into supporting McCain rather than Ron Paul and had one guy explain it this way. McCain was the lesser evil, he didn’t think Obama would be better in any way/ on any issue but he thought it was important to send a message to the GOP “Parties think about why they lose elections” and then supposedly cater to the hold outs to get them on board.

      To think that the 1% of the population who vote libertarian are going to convince the GOP to suddenly legalize drugs and prostitution and suddenly become doves is ludicrious on its face.

      Alright, have vented enough!

  • bobmontgomery

    …and restoratively inspirational. Of course, we Americans like to think our government is the best, but as you point out when self-interest is enlightened and combined with responsibility, the results can be good indeed. If non-Americans benefit, that is a bonus.

  • runner12

    This was very interesting to read and began to clarify the differences between small “L” libertarianism and capital “L” Libertarianism.

  • laughing

    Just from scanning this piece of work. Libertarianism is not a relatively recent movement as you say, in this country alone it goes back to the time of about 1776….

    The “Birther” movement could not be farther removed from libertarianism. Sorry but thats a good ole’ fashion Republican party issue.

    You seem to be a big government conservative, no offense

  • laughing

    we do know what will happen. It works! Wonder why holland recently closed 8 prisons because they couldnt fill them anymore? That certainly sounds like it’s working.

    People do not make choices to do or not do drugs because of their legality. Everyone knows marijuana is harmless so huge %’s of the population use it. Crack cocaine is also illegal like marijuana and a tiny tiny % use it. Yet they are both illegal? People know that crack is harmful and will kill you, they chose not to do it because it is a dumb idea, the law does nothing. Conservatives should understand this

    Not to mention, the federal government has no authority to make drugs illegal or choose what we put in our body for us. This is anti free-market and anti personal liberty.

    You seem to think that alcohol abuse somehow proves your point, but it proves mine. The consequences of alcohol prohibition were much worse than legalized alcohol.

    Perhaps i am just a crack-pot libertarian that this site will ban, although they have already lost all credibility but this guy isnt http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZbHndilYsI

    or this guy
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLsCC0LZxkY

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    liberals and Democrats.

  • Scope

    has pointed and laughed at you.

  • Scope

    stays on the internet, forever, right? You are not a crack pot libertarian, you are a druggie. Is there anything else about libertarianism you agree with other the the free and legal drug junk? You, unfortunately, are one of the big reasons that libertarianism is considered dangerous. Society will be paying for your rehabilitation, that is, unless you manage to kill yourself first, and, in that case, no one will be laughing, not even you.

  • Doc Holliday

    where the comedian converted to Judaism so he could safely tell Jewish jokes. And you will never see a similar diary critiquing/criticizing social conservatives get such a positive response.

    I do think you wrote a well though out diary about your views of people who are “movement libertarians” and the flaws you find in extreme libertarianism leading to anarchy. Personally I don’t find anarchy remotely similar to libertarianism. You also said small government should be about the federal government and that libertarians are wrong for wanting to check government at all levels.

    I will first mention a couple areas where I differ with your ideas, and then I will describe why I think this diary is a bit unfair to certain members of our site.

    You made the claim that legalizing drugs would lead to greater use and in a round about way turn into a form of child abuse. I can point to the Netherlands where marijuana use is de facto legal and in certain parts of Amsterdam heroin users can use openly and get free fresh needles. Yet, marijuana and hard drug use are much lower per capita in the Netherlands.

    I can also mention that in many countries in Western Europe alcohol, particularly wine, does not have the stigma it has here. Even young children in Italy often are served wine at a family dinner, sometimes watered down. And yet, alcoholism in Italy is much lower than it is here. Now maybe Europeans are just better people than we are, but my guess is Americans are lured to drugs and alcohol BECAUSE they are illegal, because they are taboo.

    A second issue I have with your view is that state and local government does not need to be checked. Why I agree in politics we much focus on reducing federal government intrusion, we regularly see that local governments can be the most totalitarian, the most unfair, and the most out of control.

    Here are a few examples of local government treachery off the top of my head. You have the Nifong vs. Duck lacrosse team. You have the Palm Beach prosecutor trying to destroy Rush Limbaugh for “doctor shopping”; not to mention that Rush is audited every single year by New York State. Other examples include what happened to Tom Delay when a political prosecutor spent millions to get him on a technicality. And finally we have the Dallas County Commissioner telling white people to go to hell. http://www.dallasblog.com/201102151007754/dallas-blog/commissioner-price-tells-white-people-go-to-hell.html

    Now I come to why I think this diary, while insightful, could cause hard feelings to some at this site. You talk about “Libertarians” and “libertarians” and denounce both philosophies. You made some good points, mainly about how philosophy and reality often don’t mix.

    The issue is this is by definition a conservative and Republican site. Very few here would say they are not conservative. I call myself a “libertarian-conservative”; just as others refer to themselves as social-conservatives, fiscal-conservatives, etc.

    I use the term libertarian-conservative to more clearly identify my views with a modifier. I think our nation has moved so much towards statism that we need a good dose of libertarianism before we can even get close to the federal society imagined by Washington and Hamilton.

    To put it another way, I think what is called “libertarian-conservatism” here is THE TRUE conservatism. I am talking about Goldwater conservatism that led to the election of Ronald Reagan. Furthermore, the term libertarian-conservative was a reaction to big government fake social conservatism. The social-conservative modifier came first, not the libertarian one. Was not Goldwater nicknamed “Mr. Conservative”? Yet would not many believers in big government on the right call him a libertarian-conservative? See what I am saying here? The term libertarian-conservative was forced upon us; we who think this nation has become a nanny state that disdains rugged individualism, the trait that made this country great. The statists both right and left are just living off the the dying host of past generations of liberty lovers.

    As you can see, I am not critiquing your main points; rather I am pointing out that maybe you are writing to the wrong crowd. This would be a more powerful attack on purist Libertarians if it was posted to a Libertarian site.

    Now you might be right about certain groups that use the big L and small l, I never traveled in those groups. I am a conservative who uses the libertarian prefix when I think it is necessary, I may be using the wrong term, I may not know enough about Rand and the Birchers, but the term works for me, and it is my individual right to use it. :)

  • aesthete

    and for the discussion, but not all of the conclusions reached. Doc has touched on some of my concerns, but I would like to add a bit more to his excellent rebuttal (or perhaps addendum?) As GC says, more later.

  • http://www.thejoyofreason.com Greg Garrison

    Actually, it

  • Common_Cents

    Just a couple observations.

    You mention legalized drugs overseas and wine drinking by youth like they are easily transplantable from one culture to the next w/ no consequence. Culture matters and should be taken into consideration.

    Secondly, yes local government can be trouble (getting Nifonged) but the point is, local government is the easiest to correct as it is more accessible. I’d rather get Nifonged than Obama’d.

  • http://www.thejoyofreason.com Greg Garrison
  • aesthete

    (Church and work can be quite the time-sinks :) )

    I’ll start by challenging an unproven postulate in your post in a way that might initially seem nit-picky, but which I think lies at the heart of the debate: specifically, the statement that anarchy leads to tyranny, surely as night leads to day. That statement, while superficially plausible, doesn’t hold up at all: Medieval Iceland, where there was an anarchist system of sorts at play, did not become particularly tyrannical when a government was established; it became similar to the Scandanavian countries that ruled it once that period had passed. Many American colonies or unincorporated townships which resembled the conditions of anarcho-capitalism did not descend into chaos or tyranny; rather, they were subsumed into the surrounding nation-states (Canada, US, Mexico).

    Indeed, I cannot think of a single society that voluntarily became anarchic or that started off as an anarchy that was particularly sympathetic or susceptible to tyranny when one considers cultural and other factors: most of the famous “anarchies” in the world were and are more accurately described as the debris left over from centralized and brutal regimes; France during certain periods of the French Revolution (post Sun King), Somalia after the collapse of its communist government, and certain areas of Spain during the Spanish Civil War. Such “anarchies” formed in the wake of brutality and in the context of dysfunctional social orders are no more an indictment on anarchy than the failure of Haiti or other third-world nations with some form of democratic input would be an indictment on democracy. Lest you think otherwise, I come here not to praise anarchy, but to bury it: as you may have noted in my second paragraph, the only positive or successful examples of anarchism were eventually subsumed into states larger and more powerful than the anarchy itself.

  • http://www.thejoyofreason.com Greg Garrison

    I forgot to mention the local government thing. Of course there should be checks on local government (Popular names for these include “elections”, “investigations”, and “oversight”). But the libertarian solution (a minimalist local government) ignores those areas where government and only (or at least most feasibly) government can provide a service that produces or mitigates a neighborhood effect–parks & rec, public transportation, area mental health, department of social services, etc.

  • Doc Holliday

    and this is one place our culture falls short. It may go back to Puritans, I think it does. Americans have such a love/hate relationship and pleasure/guilt relationship with food, alcohol, etc. Half of us are fat and half are on diets lol. Youth drinking binges occur in some parts of Europe, particularly Spain and England but they are much less common than in US high schools and colleges.

    BTW, I would rather be Obama’d than Nifong’d, think about it.

  • aesthete

    but I’ve spoken more than I care to on the subject: the point I wanted to make is that society can be and often is successful completely apart from government (to say nothing of individuals within society!): many ethnic enclaves persevered in spite of government both not protecting the rights of their members, and even took part in violating them. That is, of course, not the ideal, but it does suggest that Hobbes’ famous quote is, at best, incomplete. Examining that quote further, it is absurd on its face: for if there is “no knowledge”, “no society”, and “no letters”, then there cannot be the means to create government at all!

    That’s where I and many libertarians jump ship: while a large swathe of libertarians think very little of overly optimistic portraits of humanity, there is a certain optimism about the human nature and the creative spirit that is not present in Hobbesian conservatism, or conservatism prior to its contact with libertarian thought. Libertarians, whether incrementalist or otherwise, would indeed note that government is a necessary evil, precisely because it is. The Magna Carta, DoI, are not celebrated as expansions of government suzerainty, as both documents are about the restriction, not celebration, of government suzerainty. The Constitution is not respected by the respectable as a power grab; it is respected because it is seen as one of a few documents that attempted to seriously deal with the idea of establishing a nation-state with taxing powers in such a way that it would not restrict liberty; in essence, for chaining the Leviathan that was the inevitable outcome, anyways. The most celebrated part of the Constitution is the most anti-federalist part: the Bill of Rights.

  • aesthete

    I believe that (mostly local) government has a role in education, mental health, some public utilities and services, and other ancillary roles to assist those who are not adults. On almost every “corner issue” in libertarianism, I defer to conservative thought. I am not at all libertarian on foreign policy. However, I do think it does libertarianism a disservice to paint with such broad strokes, and to condemn it for something that is not the natural outcome of (or supported by) libertarian philosophy. Other issues that you mention are not so much philosophical critiques as critiques of membership and direction of libertarian-oriented orgs, which I partly agree with you on, but which are also not particularly relevant to the discussion.

  • Doc Holliday

    And the bill of rights are the rights of man, restrictions on government. I agree that libertrians in general have a higher view of mankind. A great example where the people who moved West after the Civil War and were stopped before hitting California.

    Those boom towns in territories like New Mexico, Arizona etc started with pretty much no law at all. The people who made the move Western were mostly rugged individuals that did not look to the government for salvation. Yet naturally, as women came schools and churches sprung up, society did have morals and limits, yet this was done voluntarily over time. And those that did not like this, those that wanted anarchy, had to move to more remote areas, one step ahead of society. But let’s give even some of those less moral types the credit they deserve, it was their fighting spirit and unbounded freedom that allowed society to follow safely in their wake.

  • aesthete

    This is not specific to your diaries, Greg, but there is a bit of a “lady doth protest too much” quality to the anti-libertarian tenor on RS and other conservative venues as of late: there is no danger of radical libertarianism gripping the nation, or gaining significant power. There is not a single domestic problem today that can be resolved through additional government action*. There is not a single serious proposal on domestic spending cuts that is too deep, and while that is not quite true of all foreign spending cuts, conservative stalwarts like Bachmann and Coburn are not only open to military and foreign cuts, they are leading the charge in many respects. Almost every goal that we have for conservatives on domestic policy in the short and near-term future aligns perfectly with that of right-libertarians. Contrary to charges of “laziness”, libertarian orgs like Cato, libertarian economists, and other libertarian thinkers have been salivating for the opportunity to implement serious policy proposals that they have worked on and refined for years (spending cuts, private school vouchers, HMOs, Chile-style SocSec privatization, you name it). It seems to me that the number of “scathing” and “devastating” critiques of libertarianism at this point are akin to passionately arguing in detail about the dangers of drowning to a man dying of thirst in the Sahara!

    Again, this isn’t really specific to your diary (OK, maybe the “laziness” part), but is more a general critique.

    *I exempt abortion here, because while government action of some sort is required, defunding abortion provision and getting strict constructionist judges are required first, and are themselves actions that would restrict the scope of government.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    I think its more important to prevent anarchy than to fret about what it leads to. What we want to avoid are things that lead to anarchy!

    probably not much more later…

  • Doc Holliday

    ” that the number of

  • acat

    What I’d like is to move a step or two toward anarchy… Not all the way, not nearly. Just .. close enough that when we look in the rear view mirror, tyranny is somewhat further off in the distance.

    Mew

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    I guess I would agree that I would rather be a few steps towards anarchy than tyranny. agreed

  • http://www.thejoyofreason.com Greg Garrison

    …limited, representative, constitutional government.

    Aesthete, I hear you on the anti-libertarian tone of the site lately. For me, though, it’s a matter of sharing my views as I formulate them. I was extremely opposed to McCain because I saw him as extremely anti-libertarian, and so I backed Obama. (I still think that the man whose name is part of McCain/Feingold doesn’t belong in the west wing, but he would have been marginally less bad than Obama.) In truth, I was also a huge admirer of Barack Obama (and I remain so regarding the person that he is). I want him out of power because he and the other Dems are destructive to our system of government, our economy, and liberty, but it’s not personal.

    But I digress.

    When I looked at races last year (including NC’s race for the US Senate), I became angry when a Libertarian

  • aesthete

    classical liberal, and “Old Whig” (Hayek’s preferred term), but I won’t shy away from a term that largely defines a good chunk of my political philosophy, even if it is a term shared by some shady characters. Also, saying that anarchy is a transitory state that must give way to some sort of government is very different from saying that it leads to tyranny, IMO: the former is certainly defensible as a postulate, but the latter is not supported by the relatively few examples of anarchy that we have. (The example that you give of Bioshock, while an interesting thought experiment, is not even close to the experience of any of the anarchist societies that have populated the earth at a given time.) There are several problems with anarchy, but the large-scale societal collapse and failure that followers of Hobbes constantly warn us about simply isn’t one of them.

    Personally, I like the current synthesis of libertarian thought on most domestic policy with a conservative, incrementalist approach, and would be thrilled if the GOP reformulated their domestic policy that does not match up with this (on the WoD, for instance).

  • Scope

    “I was extremely opposed to McCain because I saw him as extremely anti-libertarian, and so I backed Obama. (I still think that the man whose name is part of McCain/Feingold doesn

  • Scope

    You said that you were extremely against McCain, because he was extremely anti-Libertarian, so you decided to back Obama instead. Please tell me what Obama offered to you that caused you to back someone as extreme on the opposite end of the scale as the extremely anti-libertarian McCain. What message did Obama manage to get across to you that caused you to support for him? Also, what is it about the individual person Obama that causes you to still admire him?

  • aesthete

    Have you never met anyone who’s good intentions led to bad results? Those are the people that the phrase “bless his heart” are made for! Obama has many admirable attributes as a person: he is a family man who has provided for his wife and children, and has risen far in life. I, personally, do not particularly admire Barack Obama (particularly because of actions he took to get elected in IL and his voluntary association with bad people), but I don’t hold it against people when they do admire the guy.

  • http://www.thejoyofreason.com Greg Garrison

    I was trying to provide some context to demonstrate how misguided my libertarianism had been. I had become so muddled that I was willing to throw my support behind Obama because he wasn’t as anti-libertarian as McCain. This was misguided and foolish, and the past two years have contained a series of object lessons in how poor my judgment was. This is one of libertarianism’s risks: It can equivocate so thoroughly and inappropriately between Ds and Rs that its proponents who are not locked into a political party can make very foolish, adolescent mistakes. (“They’re both big government, so what’s the diff?” goes the argument.)

    As far as my admiration for Obama goes, I think that he’s probably a pretty decent guy whose politics are really screwed up. I have lots of friends like that. I like them, but I don’t want any of them holding the reins of power, just like I really don’t want Obama holding them. He doesn’t have to be Hitler or Stalin to be unworthy of re-election.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • Doc Holliday

    I just think Obama hates America and is doing everything he can to change it. He trashes our allies and bows to our enemies. Maybe there is some good in the man, I don’t doubt that, but nothing good has come from his presidency and McCain would have been a 100 times better. One reason for this is I know DC and when one party takes the presidency from the other they bring thousands of like minded types with them into government.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • http://www.thejoyofreason.com Greg Garrison

    Admiration is the wrong word. See aesthete’s point, above, about his bad associations. I hold him in very low regard morally, but he seems like a nice guy who would make a good neighbor, just not one who should hold elective office.

  • acat

    the Obamas seem like good neighbor material. Personable, smart, with good kids. Hard working. Concerned about education, girls in private school…

    Mew

  • http://www.thejoyofreason.com Greg Garrison

    I don’t like the idea of us speaking about Obama the way that the Kos Kids talk about Bush and Cheney. That’s part of why I try to see the good in him as a person, even though he’s an awful president, and I wouldn’t support him for money.

    And as far as my “formulations” go, they’ve shifted dramatically and are in a pretty good place going forward, which is sort of why I wrote this piece. Just had to flip that internal switch and pick the side who is clearly in the right. I’m guessing you went through something like this when you realized that you were ready to switch parties. Was your experience similar?

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    the better off American will be. He strikes me as a rather naive youngster that never had a chance given all the Marxists that raised him and given that his whole adult life has been spent in a liberal cocoon from Harvard to Chicago. But he also seems to have been corrupted by power and while too many tried too hard to see the good in him while covering their ears and eyes to his radical mentor named rev Wright and his own far left statements on born alive infants, contempt for the Founders and the need to bankrupt coal and Americans with skyrocketing energy prices while they purged themselves of White guilt, the BAD in him has now been all to much on display for all to see for two years now.

    We have been re-educated in the evil of liberal policies even if promulgated by “good” peoples.

    There is plenty of space for good people that suck at governing in the private sector, The White House, Congress and Supreme Court should not be rewards for some amorphous “good”.

    Mush like I choose a barber based on skill, not the patter.

  • rightwingmom52

    it’s extremely difficult for me to see the good in anyone who doesn’t support a ban on the barbaric evil act of partial birth abortion. I agree with GC that we are all created in God’s image, however, we have the freedom to choose between good and evil.

  • http://www.thejoyofreason.com Greg Garrison

    I think that Mike and aesthete are probably right. Obama has worn out his benefit of the doubt. I was brought up in a family where we try to keep things civil and friendly with everyone, so that probably has something to do with how I don’t like getting personal about his politics and dishonesty. Probably should though.

    I was reading way too much Reason Magazine in 08 and not thinking for myself a whole heck of a lot. They were very anti-McCain (http://reason.com/archives/2007/03/02/be-afraid-of-president-mccain) but ran a bunch of puff pieces on Obama (Example:

  • Doc Holliday

    I won’t give another detailed response because I think we have both made our points. I can say that I have never been a true libertarian nor have I studied their history, short or not. I am a conservative Republican and have always been a Republican.

    The extent of my libertarianish reading includes books such as Free To Chose, Liberty and Tyranny, Neil Boortz, Conscience of a Conservative etc. I have never read Rand, I am not well versed in anarchists, minarchists, or any other type of similar philosophies. I know about Marx of course because I have studied quite a bit of Russian history.

    I guess what I am trying to explain is that you have me on knowledge of modern political sects and political philosophers. If my personal “libertarian-conservatism” does NOT lead back to the Founders and the Constitution then I am simply not a libertarian. My beliefs do come from the Founders, they come from the “light of liberty” that started in Greece and slowly moved West over a period of at least 2500 years.

    My love of Western Civilization and belief that liberty was and is its heart does not keep me from understanding people in their context of time and place. In the Jamestown colony you would be put in the stocks for simply missing twice daily church services. And the funny part is, people don’t think of those who founded Jamestown to be that religious. It was those radical Puritans up North who were about religion, the Virginians were after gold.

    My reason for that diatribe was to show that one must understand “liberty” by its time and place. And this puts us in agreement, for the greats of the past did have rules, they did have a moral code. Ironically Washington would have thought nothing of someone smoking pot but would be greatly offended if the same person cursed in the presence of a lady. Hmm, sounds kind of like that libertarian idea of not harming others.

    As for the Netherlands, it has quite a large population. I believe it has the greatest population density in Europe. Also, most nations in Western Europe have decriminalized marijuana possession. Basically they give the cop a lot of discretion, if the user is making an ass out of himself, and bothering others, he will get written up or even arrested. If the guy is at home, and bothering no one, he has nothing to worry about.

    The other issue with the Netherlands that you mentioned is the Muslim problem. This is where the Dutch confused liberty and weakness. They allowed people to come to their nation and change the nation, not the other way around. I support all European countries that get tough on radical Islam and those who refuse to be part of the nation. One thing though, a lot of this is really not Europe’s fault. Just as we have illegal Hispanics pouring across our border, the Europeans have the same thing but with radical Muslims. I don’t think we would trade problems with them lol.

    One final point Greg. I never used the term libertarian-conservative until the big government rise during the Bush years. I will not repeat the offenses here again but people from Bill Frist, to GWB, Kyl, and even Dobson and Robertson after 9/11 made me see that their were factions in this party that did not believe in liberty. They may have said they believed in liberty, but their desire to mold people to their personal views superseded anything else. There were also many at this site who affected me one way or the other on this issue.

    One last thing about liberty and varying philosophies. It is not just the time period that affects ideals of liberty vs. actual liberty, it is also where you are, at that time. For example, while a small land owner in Wyoming can shoot cans from his porch, start a bonfire, and howl at the moon, some guy in NYC can not. So location also matters when it comes to liberty. I think the political map will bare that out on views from guns to unions, eminent domain to marijuana.

  • Doc Holliday

    they must issue more and more dept for parks and other “good causes”. The people almost always vote for these proposals, if they live in states that allow them to vote on these things, because the cause always sounds nice. They people don’t seem to care abou the consequences of the debt. Government at any level will naturally try to grow as big as it can, only we can stop it, and few seem to want to.

  • Doc Holliday

    finally became proud of her country, they have that going for them :)

  • aesthete

    I just don’t really care, to be perfectly honest. So little of what results from government is connected to motivations or goodness, that I see very little use in trying to get inside of Obama’s mind. I can definitely see the O as evil in his motivations (and there’s evidence from his time in Chicago and the Presidency that he’s not particularly made of firm stuff), but I’ve also known plenty of liberals who are otherwise nice, productive people, model citizens, good Christians, etc who not only endorse Obama’s failings, but would go even further if in a position of power. I agree with you that McCain would have been much better in spite of his intentions, and as a result of the different groups that he brings to the table.

  • Doc Holliday

    I should have responded directly to GG’s post but lost it in the thread lol. You were just saying you understand seeing some good in opponents. I do not reflexively hate dumb liberals, I did not hate Clinton while many fellow conservatives did hate him. I found him more a reflection of our society at the time, I mean, we did have THREE chances to get rid of him.

    One thing I could not understand from GG’s post is how anyone could have thought Obama was libertarian. As you know quite well, the libertarian-right and the libertarian-left have nothing in common really. The ACLU uses the term liberty but that is not what they support. They and the libertarian left don’t want government out of their business they want government to give them what they think they are owed.

  • http://www.thejoyofreason.com Greg Garrison

    I explained somewhere above that I had been reading far too much Reason Magazine and taking it at face value instead of thinking for myself. There was a piece on here a few days ago (by Leon?) about how Reason has gone downhill, and I think that it was right. It’s not really a very good magazine anymore.

    Here’s their treatment of John McCain.

    And here’s one on Obama. In retrospect, it is unbelievably silly.

    They were pretty heavy-handed in other places too. Reading constant hit pieces really prejudiced me against McCain.

    Anyway, I was totally in the wrong, and it’s my responsibility because I chose to contract critical thinking to others (reason.com). I think it’s probably time that I stop trying to find the good in B.O. and just admit that he’s not worth my personal admiration. Thanks for adding to the conversation. I’ll respond to your points (way above) when I find the time. The weekend is always a tough time for that.

  • aesthete

    Obama voted for the USAPATRIOT Act’s renewal when he would have faced absolutely no backlash from voters in his district or the national electorate as Prez (recall that ’08 was supposed to be about Dems running against the WoT successfully), voted for TARP, and committed himself to the garbage that passes for economics on the leftist side (protectionism, gummint intervention, the whole gamut): that, and the stranglehold that illibertarian groups hold over the Democratic party, told me all I needed to know about Obama’s “libertarianism”. I saw some of the same articles that Greg links to, and at the time thought them to be incredibly silly. I like Reason Mag, but it really tries too hard to be hip and cool to be taken seriously (a lesson that Greg seems to have learned the hard way).

  • http://www.thejoyofreason.com Greg Garrison

    Thank you for raising it. Between that, the way that he wouldn’t want his daughters to be “punished” with a child (punished?!), how he is dismantling our system, etc, it’s probably about time I admit that he’s disqualified himself from personal respect.

  • aesthete

    living in Tucson and all. As you allude to, government is an extension and protector of society, not its creator. I sure wish there was a new frontier for individualists to escape to, as there was in the Americas for so long.

  • http://www.thejoyofreason.com Greg Garrison

    If you know where that quote comes from, you know not to finish it, as that would be rude and uncalled-for. It happens to be the longest Al-Swearengenism without vulgarity that I could remember.

    In case you don’t know what I’m talking about, it’s a line from the HBO program Deadwood, one of the best shows in the last few years. It is incredibly vulgar and rough, and while a lot of the language is probably not all that realistic, it captures the tone of the Old West in a way that’s probably pretty realistic.

    I assume that a lot of popular vulgarity from the nineteenth century wouldn’t make sense today, but I think that the show’s creator, David Meach, made it hyper-vulgar on purpose. Deadwood was his attempt to explore order without law (He’s made a bunch of classic shows, including Hill Street Blues).

    At any rate, we can romanticize the idea of rugged individualism, but for people in the Old West, life was hard. It was beyond hard. It was gruesome, disease-ridden, and rough, and if a bullet didn’t get you then pneumonia would. Life in the twenty-first century is different, and because most of us don’t want to live in a town like Deadwood, we have statutorily-defined community standards. Because we have medicine and a long history of snake oil salesmen, we have the FDA. Because we have cars that can travel faster than anything in the nineteenth century (except for a cheetah and a locomotive), we have laws governing alcohol and drug consumption.

    The benefits of living in a time as complex and amazing is that we can see and do and think things that weren’t possible before. But the cost is giving up some of the freedoms that cowboys had. Given the civilization that has sprung up in the soil that they tilled, I think that it’s well worth the tradeoff.

    A few years ago, I fashioned myself a country/folk singer and wrote a notebook full of songs. Once I learned how the business side of the music business works, I gave up on the idea, but I recorded a few. Here’s one that I think you’ll really enjoy:
    http://www.ilike.com/artist/Greg+Garrison

    Click on “Love In the Ruins”. I can e-mail you the MP3 if you like it.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    before he was elected, the dems controlled Congress and wrote the budgets, not Bush. But he and Hillary did famously vote against funding the troops on 2 occasions.

  • http://www.thejoyofreason.com Greg Garrison

    Perfectly stated. I really like certain writers, but in the main I find them too self-congratulatory and hipstery. Gillespie’s black t-shirt & leather jacket shtick speaks volumes. Their R/D equivocation does too, when it’s clear that while the GOP is far from perfect, the DNC’s policies will put us in the left lane on the road to ruin.

  • Doc Holliday

    now that Obama is in charge the Dems don’t care about those things.

  • Common_Cents

    The lame stream media and left were crying about a new tone but look at the signs showing the WI gov as hitler, targets on his face etc….pure hatred from the left.

    NOT A WORD in the lame stream media.

  • Doc Holliday

    and the lame stream media ginned up most of the anger over Iraq, Gitmo, Abu Graib etc. I know we all know this, but it is vital to keep it top of mind. We will always have the MSM as an enemy to Republicans, they will always be an anchor weighing on our chances.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    the patriot act etc also applies

  • http://www.thejoyofreason.com Greg Garrison

    It is also important to remember a few things: It was governmental policy (homesteading laws, cheap land sales, etc) that enabled the settlement of the West. Many settlers moved west to avail themselves of the opportunities, knowingly taking on the risks of disease, outlaws, and Indians to reap rewards, not because they were born under a wand’rin’ star. When territories applied for admittance into the Union, they understood that they were signing up for more law and order. (Full disclosure: The closest I’ve come to being a cowboy was shoveling manure in NC and GA, so I’m no authority.)

  • aesthete

    As far as the civilization = government meme goes, plenty of free cities had minimalist or non-existent government, and were at the apex of human civilization. That was not quite the experience in the West, but I cannot see how a central government at the time of the Wild West would have been better at getting rid of the snake oil salesmen or making life less difficult in general than what was available (snake-oil salesmen, in particular, were stopped more by urbanization and the spread of information than government regulation, which came after the problem had resolved itself). Government can serve a very useful role for society, but it is not quite the linchpin of civilization that some would have us believe.