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Sometimes It’s Embarrassing to be a Conservative

By: tomkinney (Diary) | May 29th, 2012 at 03:12 PM |

RESIZE: AAA

Marijuana should be legalized. So should every other drug. Obama is an idiot yet even he gets the this. What does that make most conservatives?

Retro dudes living in yesteryear. But that hopefully is changing. (See, hope and change can be used in the same sentence without hypocrisy.)

Gay marriage is a big yawn. I’d have been happy to have started my 44 years-and-counting marriage with a civil union after a year of living together. The only reason we got a license is so she could pay in state tuition. So what’s the big deal about gay marriage? Oh, yeah, it’s a god thing. God doesn’t like gays, or something, right? I doubt that, but then I doubt god too.

I’m not only for legalizing drugs and gay marriage, I’m not a Christian, nor anything else, though I like to say I’m not even an atheist because that’s become a form of religion too. Anything’s possible, why close off any options? The day I’m driven to my knees by something, I’ll respect that. But just to hedge my bets against going to hell. That’s hypocrisy squared.

And yet I’m a die hard conservative. But rather one as Rick Santelli, godfather of the Tea Party, describes himself: a fiscal conservative, but also a live and let live social liberal.

Except for the liberal part. I reject that too. Liberalism in general has gotten away with being a positive adjective for too long, while conservatism has had the exact opposite label. There’s nothing socially liberal about legalizing pot or gay marriage. It’s just common sense and it’s the direction our evolving society has been taking for some time, and no, I don’t attribute or thank Obama for his definition of “evolving” here either. There’s a difference between evolving an attitude about something over time and selling out your principles while trying to make it look like you’re upholding them. He’s of the latter school, sell your principles to the highest bidder and make sure they pay through the mouth for it too. Damn principles don’t come free, says Obama.

But my biggest gripe about conservatives is that they’re still trying to play the liberals’ game as the loyal opposition that “reacts” to history instead of making it. Not that being the party of no hasn’t served a purpose. It has. Never has the word no been used to better effect than the last three years. After all, there’s been nothing coherent to say yes to that’s come from the Obama administration. So just say no. And then say it again.

But now it’s time to go for a little more than no. What’s our agenda? Well, it’s already here.

What’s really ironic is that this all changed in 2010 and nobody noticed it. Not even conservatives. We are suddenly the party of the future. Our young Turks, having been ushered in on the Tea Party wave and those who were already there who got a big bump from the Tea Party’s presence, like Paul Ryan.

Ryan, Cantor, Daniels in Indian, Walker in Wisconsin, and many many more. These guys give lip service to their religious affiliations, but what they’re really into is the economy. The money. The honey. How it’s made, where it goes, and how much of it government should be allowed to tax and spend. That’s their passion and it’s the right passion for the times. This isn’t a global recession by accident. We’re in the process of sorting out the future and as usual that process is open to the good, the bad, and the butt ugly. So where should conservatives fit in this scheme? Everywhere. We’re the only people on the planet talking about the money in the right context. Where it comes from, where it goes, and how to get out of its way most of the time and when to intervene when absolutely necessary.

The left, on the other hand, continues to loll along in lala land. Look at Greece and California and look no further. This is where liberalism ends, not in a bang, but with a clang. A penny hitting the bottom of an otherwise empty tin can.

Our public schools should teach economics from the early grades up. Those buildings aren’t there for the sole purpose of holding Gay and Straight Alliance Clubs. They’re there to teach young Americans the skills they need to survive in a rapidly changing world in which our preeminence is no longer something we can take for granted. If you want a Gay and Straight Alliance Club in your town or city, start your own. It’s a good org, it just doesn’t belong in a public schools that already can’t deliver a full academic spectrum. Plus, in a decade or less, all our public schools will be gone in favor of digital learning that can take place anywhere.

But above all, conservatives, it’s time to think Big Tent. We’re not all the same guy and gal here in this unsightly string of pup tents. I like my fellow conservatives, even the evangelicals who have a special place in my heart for all the ridicule they receive. But I often wonder if they like me. Or put differently, do they even want conservatives like me.

I’d consider being a libertarian, but it just sounds like too much work. Too many issues, so little time. Too much diligence, not enough fun.

So what do y’all at RedState think? Do you want conservatives like me who break all the old molds? Can I fit in your pup tent?

COMMENTS

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Melody Warbington (rwm52)

I don’t like your diary. I stopped reading and merely scanned after the 4th paragraph. Of course, it’s nothing personal.

mikeymike143

the last diary i saw that was this crappy was when that starzandstripes person was trolling for lugar here.

and this kinney guy sure seems like a left wing pompous buffoon to me.

tomkinney

…other than a good conversation. Your post is not a conversation, it’s proselytizing, which is your right.
tomkinney

…generally I respect the Tea Party, but it apparently has its own loons.

Keep up the good work and leave the insults for Democrats.

Better yet. Don’t insult anyone. We need a strong left because what works in America is a bipolar congress. You can’t have that with only one party.

APA Guy

Banhammer to fall in 3…2…1…

tomkinney

…and it works. A one party system is what the left wants and apparently with conservatives like you, some of us want it too.
acat

It has never “worked”, it has only encouraged the grasshoppers by requiring the ants and red hens to cut deals with the Left party to keep the country from collapse.

You see a false value.

Mew
tomkinney

The split between Alexander Hamilton and Thomas Jefferson defined our two parties for all time. But what’s interesting is how the parties have reversed their roles over the years. That tells me that it’s the dynamic of a two party system that works, not what the parties stand for, because it’s ultimately compromise that decides our way forward.

Hamilton, now considered the godfather of conservatism,, was in a very real sense for big government, whereas Jefferson, fearful of big government and opposed to it, is generally considered the godfather of modern liberalism. Yet Jefferson was gonzo for states’ rights and Hamilton wasn’t. Jefferson was opposed to a central banking system–without which we would have failed within a few decades–and he was opposed to a national army–same result–while Hamilton was for both those things and made them happen in is role as treasury secretary under Washington when Jefferson was secretary of state.

Talk about a dynamic duo.

So it’s not the party that’s important, it’s the duel between the parties that creates the tension that resolves itself in compromise. Now I’m sure some of you are going to read “compromise” as a bad thing and some will say it proves I’m a liberal troll.

Not so. Compromise is what keeps marriages together. It’s what keeps everything together. It’s fine to have your principles, but without flexibility, principles become obstacles and there’s too much of that going on it both parties. The result is paralysis.
APA Guy

Traditional, conservative warriors doing battle with the loony left that believes in murdering babies and cradle-to-grave socialism = colonial-era patriots working out their differences as they forged a brave, new nation.

Good Lord…now you idiots on the left are plagued with delusions of grandeur…

By the way, there IS room for debate by way of two parties (or more) in a republic. What there ISN’T room for is a wing of socialism that hates America and wants to transform this great nation into the scourge that is the eurozone.

Sell crazy over at DK…no one is buying your brand here.
honeybadger

Do you understand what conservatism is? Maybe the reason why you are embarrassed to be a conservative is because you don’t know what the term means.

Oh, and Jefferson is only a liberal in the classic sense of the word
http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

Hamilton was… well… a Chamber of Commerce type.

Neither was much of a Burkean conservative.
acat

In short, Tom offers a big tent but delivers something much smaller

Mew

* Simplified Meade, for grins
trimulchio

“A choice not an insane communist cargo cult.”
trimulchio

in a healthy Republic. Not sure those kinds of views exist on the “Strong Left.”

juliea

sentence from that 4th paragraph — which would be the one you most dislike?

Melody Warbington (rwm52)

but I’m not inclined to answer except to say that this entire diary struck me as designed to insult social conservatives, those of faith, the older generation, traditionalists, all of which I am. I don’t think Tom wrote with the intent of any real discussion, else he wouldn’t used the condescending tone.

Frankly, I have better things to read and do with my time than give this diary any further consideration.

civil truth

You don’t go into specifics about your economic views, but you identify yourself as being in line with conservatives on economic issues, which I would assume includes respect for free markets and shrinking the size of government to its delegated role…along, I hope, with a healthy distrust that a handful of politicians know how to run our economy better than the millions of participants deciding independently.

You didn’t say a word about foreign policy and defense, which is a curious omission, if only because a nuclear detonation coming to a theater near you could ruin your day. This is a critical foundation of the conservative tent as well. Do you believe in American Exceptionalism?

Finally regarding “social” issues, the question I would have is whether you’re content to let conservatives of all persuasions on these matters freely express their views – and let the political process play out. Or are you one of those folks who will insist on silencing social conservatives.

In other words, if being in the same tent with social conservatives speaking out is embarrassing to you, then you’ve answered your own question.

But if you respect those who disagree with you on social issues, I don’t see why you can’t be in the same tent. Though a less jaunty air would be well-advised as well.

tomkinney

Good post and good questions.

I didn’t intend to set out my entire “agenda” here, but I’m glad to have a chance to reply to sensible and smart questions.

Foreign policy is a particular interest to me as I hitchhiked from north of Stockholm to South Africa going through Turkey, the Middle East, and North Africa to get there from 1965-67. I was 18 when I left Wisconsin and knew nuttin about nuttin. It all imprinted on me as a blank slate.

I was for the war in Iraq, strongly. Now I’m against it and feel I was mistaken. Not because Bush didn’t have good intentions. He did. But because I now see it as just another “liberal interventionism” approach to foreign policy. This is not a new concept. Liberal interventionism started with Woodrow Wilson in WWI, in which his goal in entering us into a war that didn’t concern us was to woo Europe into his idea of the League of Nations. That didn’t work out so well and neither has any other attempt at liberal intervention, including WWII, Korea, Vietnam,, etc. The idea behind liberal interventionism,, which I have written about here before to zero response, is a compelling one. That we can successfully implant our democratic capitalistic system abroad if we do it right. We did so in Germany, Japan, and Korea, so why not Iraq which was the place where writing first evolved and has a history of being civilized.

Sadly, there was too much we didn’t know about Iraq and it cost us in American lives and resources and to what result? It may still turn out to have been a good thing, but we can’t intervene everywhere by ourselves.

So now I am a partial isolationist. Not economically. Just militarily. I’d like to see most of our troops return home, that we stay out of interventions–especially Syria and Iran–until the world gets down on its knees and begs us to do it and then we do it with this caveat: we’ll save your sorry butts but you will pay us for it. We will treat you right but you will treat us right.

Like that.

I’d go on, but that should give you some idea where I’m coming from.

Thanks for your comment

tomkinney

…as I stated clearly in my post. Evangelicals are the most discriminated against people in modern America, where I believe we are now post-racial.

And for those reasons, I’m surprised and disappointed to be insulted here by evangelicals. The evangelicals I know don’t behave that way. Not that an evangelical doesn’t have the right to get angry and say so. You do.

Melody Warbington (rwm52)

“I like my fellow conservatives, especially the evangelicals who have a special place in my heart for all the ridicule they receive,”

instead of this:

“I like my fellow conservatives, even the evangelicals who have a special place in my heart for all the ridicule they receive,”

I might buy your claim that you didn’t intend to insult faith. But you didn’t, and I don’t.

Exactly what did I say that you consider an insult? I was honest and direct in stating I did not like your diary in my first comment. I explained why in the second. And I clearly stated it wasn’t personal. If we were speaking face to face, I’d tell you the same thing in a soft, calm voice followed by a genuine “Bless your heart.”

acat

… well played.

Mew
Melody Warbington (rwm52)

no text
tomkinney

I agree, “especially” would have been better. Even sounds condescending. But I write fast and I’m at work so I don’t have time to edit myself as I would like to.

Sorry about that. And reviewing your original post, you are correct there too.

You were honest and you have every right not to like my post. I’ve been a writer for many years and while I’m used to criticism I don’t always take it as well as I should.

And I say unto you as my late aunt Mary Jane was fond of saying, “bless your little heart.”

(And “little heart” was a term of endearment for her, not an insult, just to be clear about that)

thanks for your comment Melody

Darin_H

Things that you care about are silly and outdated. Things that I care about are special and show that I’m smart.

There. Happy?
Jack_Savage

Actually, first I’ll paraphrase:

Blah blah blah I don’t believe in God blah blah blah if you don’t like gay marriage don’t have one blah blah blah pot is SO cool and so is coke and heroin you backward philistines blah blah blah libertarianism is hard blah blah blah I am really just a situational ethics postmodern mush head blah blah blah big tent! big tent! big tent!.

Heard it all before, a hundred thousand times. The smug superiority of someone who thinks balancing a checkbook is really all you need to do in order to live a wonderful life, and that preventing people from growing a little weed in their flowerpots is the first thing that Hitler after he was elected.

Your philosophy can be argued for about one minute before it falls completely apart. You say that the “young turks” pay lip service to their religions, which is something you hope for in order to bolster your position but is simply not true.

I agree with certain aspects of your post, but treating social conservatives, who have a well thought-out, coherent and defensible philosphy of life, government and economics as cute little animals at a petting zoo really irritates the hell out of me.

So I didn’t respond.

Happy now?

gekster

and then the diary,
I have to ask, refering back to the title,
“How would you know”.
http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

… great phrase. Apropos.

There was a time when “communism” was ‘the future’.

Any arguments that are based on ‘this is the future and that other stuff is old hat’ is not only UN-convincing (as in it expresses no logical basis), but is for me a big red flag of BAD THINKING.

mix in with the smugness and loaded down with assumptions and presumptions that are invalid (it would help for people who call themselves conservative to, say, pick a book by Wm F Buckley or some real conservative and figure out what it means), and you’ve got something that’s just plain annoying.

tomkinney

This doesn’t look like Hittite but I don’t understand a single word here.

Other than William F. Buckley, for whom I have great respect.

As for “smugness,” the smugness of insulting someone you don’t know based on your “assumptions” doesn’t make you a daisy either, partner.

Just trying to get a conversation going, but when you’re dealing with people who’ve no sense of humor not to mention perspective, what’s the point in that?

tomkinney

I appreciate that you appreciate “certain aspects” of my post.

I don’t think I’m insulting social conservatives, though my language was a bit on the teasing side. I’m only trying to get a dialog going about something that’s important to me.

And I agree that social conservatives have a well-thought out philosophy. The data is very clear about divorce rates and out of wedlock births when comparing evangelicals and other Christians vs. those who don’t have faith. In that sense, religion is a very good thing. But I believe you have to be a believer first. I know too many people who go to church because they think they’re children should be there for social reasons. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, but it weakens the overall faith of others when some are there just for show or for other reasons than their faith.

Thanks for your comment, but curb the insults; it wasn’t my intent to insult, but rather to challenge. Anyone who can’t take a challenge shouldn’t be in the lineup.

acat

Barna says it’s the same inside and outside the church.

Anecdotal evidence suggests otherwise, but nobody’s managed to show me a study that proves it.

This particular topic has been discussed at length by myself, kipling, aesthete, and others rather extensively.

If you’ve got some actual factual *data* do share. Otherwise, you need to rethink.

Mew

tomkinney

The data I do have is that out of wedlock births have a dismal prognosis for success. That’s been proven time and again, but i just did a quick google search and everything that came up was leftist propaganda and you know where that goes.

I’ll continue looking when I have a moment and try to find something.

As for church going and marriage, I believe I’ve heard the same statistics that you have and if I’m not mistaken, evangelicals have a higher divorce rate than the average.

But my bigger point is that of out of wedlock births, which is a result of collapsed value systems. For example, 70% of black children are born out of wedlock and the data is very clear in telling us that these kids have a dire prognosis for economic success. As I said, I’ll keep looking for that data.

Melody Warbington (rwm52)

you’ll appreciate the correction of “they’re children” to “their children” in the third line from the bottom of your penultimate paragraph.

And for the record, I attend church primarily to worship God. Anything else is a very distant second, and your last sentence in that same paragraph is correct. I taught a session in our Ladies Bible Study just a couple of weeks ago that touched on that very subject.

tomkinney

Fact is, I type very fast and don’t take the time to edit my posts here like I try to do with my diary, but don’t always succeed there.

http://www.itsaboutliberty.com IronDioPriest

Comes here and lectures others using a proclamation of ones own self-evident common sense as evidence that his sense is indeed common.

I am embarrassed by people who fail to see the self-evident inevitable failure of absolute libertarianism, and who fail to understand that libertarian philosophy is an important tenet of principled conservatism, but does not define it – and who call themselves conservative without a proper idea of what that even means.

mikeymike143

kinney was ignorant enough to post a left/libertarian journal on a conservative site. then whined like a sissy because nobody wanted to comment on his diary. well, kinney finally got his comments, and they all pretty much said that his diary was worthless and he’s an idiot. LOL
Bill S

You’re a libertarian. And an obnoxious one, to boot. At least most of the libertarians here are respectful about it. You wrote this in a way that basically says “this is what I think..fork you if you disagree”

Thus the lack of comments. Until you got even more annoying by whining about it.

APA Guy

Anyone who says “we need a strong left” is only one thing: A member of that loony wing.

funwithknives

‘we need a strong left’ like we need Alan Greyson/Wasserman-Schultz as harbingers of truth.

Like the Wobblies or Mugwumps, their day is done.
Invite ‘em over for a freebie,triple-wrap the boxes and leave the room.
Shoot a Hellfire through the window and let The Lord sort ‘em out.

tomkinney

…you’d make a good liberal.

lineholder

So, talking about education…regardless of methodology, what kind of quality are you looking for? High quality? Low quality? Or does it even matter? How would it be defined? What kind of standards would be used? What would those standards be based on? What kind of economics would be taught? Keynesian? Free-market? Both?

You say that our educational system should teach young people the “skills they need to survive”. Fine. Here’s where those pesky conservatives (and especially those archaic, out-dated, traditional So-Cons) fit into the mix….

Developing the skills that a person needs to succeed in life isn’t just about what they learn, but to what extent they succeed in applying what they learn. When it comes to being able to succeed in things in life, character development plays an important role in that success. Of all the people living in our society, So-Cons are the ones most likely to focus on individual character development. We pull what we know and what we have learned via our archaic, out-dated traditional belief systems and apply it in a way that emphasizes the development of individual character traits such as determination, perseverance, frugality (which pertains to spending money wisely), integrity, dependability, reliability, etc. We also are the ones who would be most inclined to emphasize individual character traits and qualities such as creativity and ingenuity, which are the kinds of traits that would be best applied for the purpose of surviving “in a rapidly changing world”.

It’s part of the reason we don’t “evolve”. We understand the positive worth and value of elements of tradition, and we seek to protect and preserve them.

So which would you rather have? The emphasis on the individual that conservatives offer into the mix? Or the collectivism of the liberals?
tomkinney

I pretty much agree with your take on education, and it’s the field I work in as a publisher of books for use with special education students.

I would treat our public schools like I would a dangerous bridge. If the bridge is in such bad shape as to be dangerous, we would reroute traffic around it until it was fixed. Therefore, I would quarantine our schools as dangerous places where education isn’t guaranteed and often isn’t even served. They would be heavily monitored by their local communities who would meet on a regular basis to decide their future. I would gut the Dept of Education entirely and burn the building to the ground. I would implement every feasible “digital learning”–the expression simply means any kind of instruction that takes place electronically– thus removing the human teacher from the equation. But I would not end human teaching, which is an art that some are born with and we should never blunt natural talent. Digital learning would simply help us muster great teachers from around the country who could appear electronically in any setting, home, church, or school. Thus bad teachers as mollycoddled by unions would end.

Etc., I could go on for days. Maybe I’ll do a diary about it, despite the degree of negative comments here. I don’t need to please everyone; that’s a fools’s errand. If anyone listens, that’s enough for me.

thanks for commenting
gekster

I guess we can still tell what’s crap when we read it.
Bill S

Is there room for “people like you”? If you mean people with libertarian social policy beliefs, yes.

But you specifically?

No.

Bill S

.

Flagstaff

but I just recco’d your diary, which now will have 103 comments. I’m not sure where you wanted to go with this, but it went downhill way too fast.

So you have a different opinion on several issues than you think many other Republican/Conservatives have. So what? Lots of us have differing opinions. Around here, it’s lately been about the quality of the several candidates, but there are plenty who would agree with you about some of your “differences,” and many more who would be willing to listen to your arguments with an open mind, if they really cared a lot about the particular issue. But most of us don’t care that much about those issues.

For one thing, we, no I, think we are a long way from changing the status quo about any of them. For another, we view them as divisive issues which are unimportant in the big picture, so why go there? They’re the kind of stuff you talk about after a few drinks, or when one of you is really interested and the rest are willing to let the discussion go on. They generally end when somebody says, “Boy, I’m sleepy,” and everybody else agrees and you all go to bed.

If you were gay, I’d not care unless you insisted on describing details about your private life (even if you weren’t gay, I wouldn’t like that) or on haranguing me about how mistreated you are.

We do have a problem when a minority insists it has the answer, and that if we don’t make it our nominee the rest of us are RINOs, and they try to impose their will by threat of some kind. You wouldn’t like that either, would you?

So I would say, write about what interests you; if that doesn’t bring the results you want, try some different interests. Some sure-fire topics: smaller government, Eric Holder’s incompetence and/or imperiousness, Barry Obama, tax rates, tax revenues, “stimulus,” malfeasance in office, Social Security, puppies, and kittens. And the Republican “Big Tent.” You can even write about what should be done for us to succeed. Sometimes you get a lot of reaction, sometimes you don’t.

Be personally respectful and you get respect back.

gekster

at this point in time, you are talking to a ghost.
Just letting you know, but a good post nontheless.

Flagstaff

I think maybe he just got off on the wrong foot.

I was off with my comments, anyway. People do care about those things, but unless there is something new to say, why say anything?

morstar150

then there is plenty to say about that, and I will say plenty, but your diary post really just reflects that there are different kinds of conservatives.

You fall into the libertarian sector a place where I find myself many times. There is also the fiscal conservative who focuses on the financial sensibilities of capitalism. However, you dismiss rather tritely the social conservative view that a majority of Americans live their lives based on religious principals that are unable to be compromised. I don’t apologize for those beliefs. I don’t ask you to accept them as your own if that is not within your heart. And, I don’t require my government to make my religion more important than any other religion. The reality of our government is that atheism has become our national religion, endorsed wholeheartedly by our Supreme Court.

You will find that a majority of people accept civil unions. You will also find that a majority of people believe that the union of a man and a woman has a definite meaning. That meaning comes from the physical nature of our bodies. A child is born from the union of a mother and a father. This basic foundation of the family unit comes from that definition of marriage. It’s that simple. I welcome you here as a conservative and I respect your views but some of our views differ. As reasoning beings that is acceptable.
freedomfighter21

Never in my life have i been embarrassed to be a part of this party. This is the party that uses common sense. This is the party that stands against big government. Now, Have I been embarrassed by conservatives? Yes. But to say I am embarrassed to be one would be disgracing to the whole party. I am very proud of the 3 things I am. Human, Conservative, and AMERICAN.

freedomfighter21

To say the least, it is people like the author of this blog that makes me embarrassed, not being conservative. And no matter what the situation, I am always proud to be conservative

gekster

claiming to be a conservative and trying to stir up some trouble.
No one bought his bs.
After we played with him for awhile, he got banned for being too stupid to keep his cover.

gekster

did I already do an nt on this thread?
don’t know.

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tomkinney

I have to respond to myself. How embarrassing. Not really.

Redstate has a great idea with allowing self-posted diaries, the only problem being that nobody reads them except those who post here most often. Is it a general lack of interest in RedState or what?

After all, you do a nice job of promoting “columns”through your ‘comments’ and ‘redhot’ sidebars. It’s a shame because I would blog more often, but my day job as book editor only allows for so much time and it’s not rewarding to blog to yourself.
gekster

Not all diaties get commented on, or recco’ed for that matter.
Are you here to spread information,
or get accolades.
zachv

I agree that marijuana and gay marriage should be legalized – although with heavy restrictions and taxes on the production, distribution and usage of the drug coupled with harsh penalties on any infringement of said policies.

However it is in no way an “embarrassment” for me to be hand-in-hand with those conservatives who oppose these measures. I’d vote/support/contribute to an anti-pot, anti-gay marriage conservative over a liberal any day. It’s a pity that you feel the need to attack them.
westcoastpatriette

to be one of us??? Not sure who you are insulting more…yourself or us.
Repair_Man_Jack

Asking people why thaey don’t comment? I mean really. After reading this polemic against my fundamental beliefs, I feel like this comment is akin to leaving a bag of flamming dog poop on someone’s front porch and then demanding to know why they haven’tt invited you in for tea and crumpets.
http://stevemaley.com Steve Maley

Don’t quit your day job.

“Marijuana should be legalized. So should every other drug. Obama is an idiot yet even he gets the this. What does that make most conservatives?”
gekster

can anyone else see I don’t have spellcheck.
(can’t blame this one on lack of coffee)
tomkinney

Hey, thanks, I feel like I’m a part of the crowd now.

Hopeless and changeless indeed.

But not us. I’m full of hope. Here in Wisconsin, we’ve just seen a recent poll that says Walker is up by 12 points. Walker is a very good man and this recall has ripped our state apart. I live in the country and every day I have to pass my neighbor’s sign that says “reclaim Wisconsin, recall Walker.”

As one of a majority of Wisconsinites who voted for Walker–I believe it was 53% to 47% or 52-48, a clear majority–it’s offensive to read. We’ve been violated by people who aren’t sincere or serious in their demands, but my neighbor is a good man who I’ve known for four decades, a farmer no less, who’s been duped into this by a combination of bad media and international unions.

A pox on all their houses.

Thanks for commenting.
morstar150

Did you read my post on The Most Vulnerable. It was brilliant, just ask me!
acat

I thought that was just part of your gekster-ish charm.

Mew
gekster

I will never worry about it again.
(unless it comes out total gibberish)
thanks
tomkinney

Just asking. And I’m glad to hear you’re for legalizing those things.

thanks for commenting.
tomkinney

…ditch digger.
http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

Although you’re about to find out what a name in red means…
APA Guy

Condescending, snotty potshots are primary tools of the troll trade. Plus, you reveal yourself with THIS from your diary:

“Ryan, Cantor, Daniels in Indian, Walker in Wisconsin, and many many more. These guys give lip service to their religious affiliations, but what they
tomkinney

…until some insulted me. Doesn’t sound like a Christian to me, and I was raised one. You don’t insult others then praise the lord, westcoast. Jesus was an historic figure of great importance. You don’t have to be a Christian to realize his teachings.

Just trying to get a conversation going and particularly one that challenges conservative orthodoxy.

Conservatism has hid in the closet of the loyal opposition too long. Time to come out of the closet and fight, boyz.

There’s no reason why conservatives can’t be part of the zeitgeist, other than that some (many?) have their heads buried up to their necks in the sand.
tomkinney

…hmmm.

Revealing of something.
westcoastpatriette

.

The audacity!!! First, you started this madness by writing a diary that reeks with passive aggressive insults to conservatives and then you accuse me of not “sounding” Christian in my reply to you. You are a very strange person.

And I will praise the Lord any time I want.
http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

There’s two kindsa (sic) dumb. One is a guy that gets naked and howls at the moon. The other is one that does the same thing in my living room.. The first don’t matter, the second you’re kinda forced to do something about…
APA Guy

Your diary and subsequent comments are really coming out of the wrong end. Are you surprised that you’re not getting a warn and fuzzy reception?

You shouldn’t be…if you’re a genuine conservative.
barleycorn

While I am a life long Republican and “conservative” fits me better than any other label (except “fat”) I also consider myself a small L libertarian to a certain degree.

I sometimes identify myself in conversation as a libertarian-conservative. After reading this self satisfied snark of diary and I think just plain “conservative” works best for me.
dansvan

I think it’s possible or even probable that you would say silly and illogical things to provoke those of us who know the truth to convince you of it. There is a book you might enjoy called “The Case for Christ” that was written by a man named Lee Strobel. He was an avowed atheist and legal scholar who set out to prove from an evidentiary perspective that God does not exist and that the Gospel of Christ was a myth. What he found, of course, was just the opposite.

Pretty interesting reading if you are as interested in truth and logic ad you seem to appear to be.

As to the other things, life, marriage, and the rest; well those things are important too. But it is hard to get a right perspective on those things if you don’t understand Truth in its most basic form.

I wish you well in your quest.
tomkinney

I don’t care about warm and fuzzy, I’ll leave those to you.

I’m only concerned about advancing the cause of conservatism and if that means weeding out losers who don’t get what it means to be a conservative in the 21st century, so be it. Survival of the fittest is the first law of evolution and clearly no liberal believes in evolution because they want to destroy the best survivors in favor of those who can’t make the cut.

As for conflating being a “genuine conservative” with warmth and fuzziness, that’s illogical and demeaning to conservatives, so whose the genuine conservative now?
tomkinney

I am a seeker of truth. That sounds self-serving but I read voluminously and study everything I can, including things like the economy on which I lack background.

Your nice “taunt” about me provoking y’all to get at the truth is an interesting thought. I do pick my fights and I pick a lot of fights because it’s my way of learning things. I always try to fight fair, but that isn’t always easy and I fail at it frequently. But a guy has to go with what he’s got and that’s my way. No apologies.

I’m not familiar with The Case of Christ, but it sounds much like my conversion to conservatism post 9/11 after having been a lifelong liberal. Though I have to qualify that. Looking back, I probably was a conservative, but like movie director David Mamet said of his conversion to conservatism, in the late 60s most of us just assumed we were liberal.

When I returned from Africa to Madison, Wisconsin during the student riots I was appalled at their attitudes and really hated the whole movement although I was against our involvement in Vietnam.. During my time in Africa, as I was hitchhiking everywhere, I met several members of various rebel groups who were true “revolutionaries.” In other words, they’d die for their beliefs. When I returned to find these 5’4″ guys from New York protesting in Madison streets and claiming to be revolutionaries, though none of them could clean a gun, I thought them to be fools. I still think so.

So being called a liberal troll here was a bit of a shock for me and it kind of backs up my original post which is that conservatives too have an in-crowd mentality that is as exclusive as it is inclusive and that doesn’t serve us well.

We need to be Big Tent like liberals are and welcome all our brethren in. That was my original statement and I stick by that too

thanks for your thoughtful comment and I too wish you well in your quest.
http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

Here’s a good one. This guy is neither a conservative, nor a libertarian.
lineholder

(I’ll just be brutally honest here, okay?)

IF what you wanted to accomplish was to generate a legitimate discussion, the approach you’ve taken was not a wise approach to use. It literally reeks of the condescending arrogance that Conservatives often receive from the elitist of the left. Once upon a time, Conservatives might have tolerated this. We aren’t inclined to tolerate it as much these days as we might have in the past.

I’ll also tell you that at least half the people who have responded to this diary would be more than willing to have a serious discussion on the topic of education, and they have numerous ideas about what might be changed within the system, how such change can be accomplished, etc.

You’ve shot yourself in the foot, so to speak, this time because of the approach you’ve taken. If you decide you want to try again…that’s up to you.
tomkinney

You have no right to call me a troll and after reading a number of these responses, I’m a little less encouraged about what we will do after we win the elections in November, and we will.

If it isn’t the economy you’re into, but strictly social conservative issues, we’ll do no better with Romney than under Obama. So why don’t you vote for Obama, APA Guy, he’s already doing the job you want done, which is doing nothing about the economy but ruining it further?

Sounds right up your alley.
lineholder

,
JSobieski

Heck, there are a lot of democrats would be substantial improvements over Obama.

If you can’t distinguish beween the sharpness of a pencil and the sharpness of a chain saw—-you shouldn’t reach out grab things with your hands.
gekster

/nt/
tnfriendofcoal101368

I was trying to determine: paulbot (the apology over Iraq, legalizing dope), etc or DKos Troll with the obvious digs at Social Conservatives. I have to give it to Markos, his trolls were getting a little obvious but tk you upped the game a bit but you finally tipped your hand. However “but strictly social conservative issues, we
gekster

That in it’s self will explain the diary’s attitude.
tomkinney

I’ve posted here a number of times, including on education, without response. So yes, I wanted to generate a legitimate discussion, but specifically about the evolving nature of conservatism.

Conservatism, in my POV has suffered from “loyal opposition syndrome,” you might call it. Too long out of power, too used to doing things as the opposition, not as the leaders of the free world. So yes, we need to be challenged going forward and if that takes stirring up the pot, I’m happy to do it.

I know all too well the condescension of liberals as I live outside Madison, Wisconsin and was one until 9/11 happened. But I also know that too many conservatives bury their heads in the sand and call Jesus for help when the solution is in front of their noses and they’re too timid to face up to it.

Congressmen like Paul Ryan, from my state, are changing that and they’re changing that by talking almost exclusively about the economy which is working because it’s driving liberals nuts. They’re not talking about god or social conservative issues, they’re talking about our money and our right to keep it.

Let’s focus the conversation on that, because as our economy goes, so we go.
tomkinney

…you’re fired.

Astounding how many posters here are judge, jury and executioner. Thumbs up, thumbs down.

Good way to run a dictatorship, not so good for a democracy.
JSobieski

There needs to be more than that.

The libertine label is as misused on this website as leftists misuse Hitler analogies.
aesthete
lineholder

may fall to the conservative side on some issues and believers that Conservatives are too entrenched in tradition at times to take a proactive attitude towards solving some of the problems our nation is facing at the present time.

If that is the case, gekster…that’s a point that numerous of us have discussed here at RS..becoming more proactive rather than reactive in our mindset.

Could I be completely and totally wrong about it? Yeah. It wouldn’t be the first time.

OTOH, I don’t have much tolerance left for the condescending attitude either. Plus, any one with a lick of common sense would realize first rule of holes applies here.
JSobieski

Is your knowledge of human pschology so stunted that you presume that just saying things that many people disagree with and demand that they simply suck it up is a way to persuade?

I am sympathetic to most of your points (besides gay marriage). However, your marketing sense is ZERO.

Every sentence you write is presumptuous. You don’t explain why economic issues should dominate—you merely assert it.

Same with drug legalization and gay marriage.

If someone approached you and just asserted that you needed to change certain positions because you were an embarassment to them, would you be convinced?

Now to top it all off, you accuse people of being judge, jury, and executioner!?!?!?!!?

Talk about a black hole calling the kettle black.

Given your skills as a salesman, you would be better of not taking the lead role in any deal. You are unlikely to create an converts to your position.
http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

True libertarians and conservatives understand the nature of private property. Libertines don’t.

Honestly, we’re just toying with you until someone with a blamstick comes along. Occasionally they allow us to play with our food here.
CincoSolas_del_Bronx

Nice finishing touch with the dictatorship/democracy dichotomy.

(And NT, I was reading up on the color perception of certain albino cetaceans; you were right, it is thought to be on the low end of the scale.)
streiff

but, then again, neither is the real world.

Your diary is silly. Ditto for your comments. I foresee a Hobbesian existence for you here: “solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short.”
lineholder

The two subjects, social and fiscal Conservatism, link and overlap. We could have a great economy, generating all kinds of jobs, with plenty of tax revenues going into the coffers…but if we have individuals within our government whose morals standard are low, and who are corrupt to the point of squandering public funds on a whim for the sake of political expediency and political power….what good will a strong economy do us in the long run?
gekster

My thoughts exactly.
tomkinney

Someone who likes to enjoy life.

Then guilty as charged.

What’s your kick, hair shirts?
Stricia

tomkinney has not put forth a conservative argument. None of this addresses the core issue of what (if anything) tom kinney is trying to express. It it his tactics that need to change. He needs to argue his position from a conservative position, not a liberal one.

There. I saved you some time.
tomkinney

This troll stuff is disturbing. Is that driven by paranoia or self-importance.

Okay, I’ve decided, self-importance.

Get over yourself young fellow.
conservativerock5

I support the re-legalization of drugs. As Milton Friedman said, from an economic perspective the government is subsidizing the drug cartel.

So many problems occur from the criminality of drugs, and so little is actually accomplished in the actual reduction of use. I believe society should steer itself, with God’s help, and not by government prodding. I believe we would have less drug problems if the government stayed out of it, because illegality makes it “cool”.

As for marriage, I believe in neither government traditional marriage nor government gay marriage. I believe in abolishing the marriage licenses and marriage benefits, and allowing people to decide on their own what marriage. As a Christian, I believe government marriage is heresy and a very serious sin.

However, I am not ashamed of being a libertarian or a conservative.
gekster

you were called a troll,
or you were found out to be a troll.
tomkinney

…may fall to the conservative side on some issues and believers that Conservatives are too entrenched in tradition at times to take a proactive attitude towards solving some of the problems our nation is facing at the present time…

You got it almost exactly right.

Conservatives need to think past November. It’s easy being the party of the loyal opposition. Just say no. Not so easy being the party in control. Then you have to lead. Fortunately, we have emerging leaders like Paul Ryan who aren’t afraid to put new ideas out there, despite the hailstorm that follows from the press.

But they hardly stop with Ryan. There are all those new governors, including an Hispanic and an Indian. There are something like 85 Tea Party members in the house, many of whom are sharp knives. We’ve got some really good people, but I don’t see the party as a whole gathering behind them as they should. Nor do I see a common message that is powerful enough.

We should be on the economy 24/7/365 and little else, but we should also be on entitlement reforms, an end to such nonsense as the Dept of Education and many others, and public sector workers’ hiring should be cut way back, pensions reduced, etc.

What’s the point of talking about gay marriage when we could be talking about the economy?

thanks for the comment and appreciate your open-mindedness, something that seems to be a little lacking here to my disappointment.
tomkinney

…but the word moral troubles me. Who decides what is moral? It’s like saying social justice. Who decides what’s social justice. Hitler had his version of it, Mother Theresa had hers.

I prefer to look at it like this. We need standards and principles but they have to be loosely structured to make room for compromise, which boiled down only means listening to the other side. It doesn’t require believing them. Without dialog, we’re lost and yet that’s where we’re at.

I don’t blame conservatives for too much of that, because we now have the single most divisive speaker of the house (or had, with Pelosi), the most divisive senate majority leader and the most divisive president in our history. All there at the same time for two years.

But I do think you sell the free market a little short. The “invisible hand” theory tells us that free markets have their own form of discipline and morals, if you must. I work in a business and we don’t benefit ourselves by cheating our customers. We have excellent customer fidelity because we give them great service and doing so makes our staff happy people.

It’s a self-rewarding process to run a good, strong, clean business and it doesn’t require imported morals from some religion to be a decent person.
lineholder

I think you’ve made a fool out of yourself for approaching it the way you have. Plus, you continue to dig yourself into a hole with that approach, which conveys that you aren’t really serious about openly discussing much of anything.

I can’t believe that people who make the FiCon argument haven’t gotten it through their heads yet that SoCons have our own part to play in this battle, and that the part that we play pertains moral/ethical issues. Yes, it does matter, even though a lot of FiCons would rather talk down to us 24/7 than to give credit where credit is due.

I have no illusions about where both the strength and weaknesses of Conservatives are, and I don’t paint rose-colored illusions about it either way.

You aren’t going to engage people in a way that succeeds in making your point by taking the kind of approach that you. Practically every person who has responded to this diary has attempted to get that point across to you in one way or another, and YOU have been the one too closed-minded to understand what they are saying to you.

Other things going on today that have caught my interest, so…I’m out of this one. Best of luck…you’re going to need it.
APA Guy

Yes, of course…we need to skip right past that most important election of our lifetime and look to the future working with Obama during his second term. After all, we desperately NEED the hard left in the White House, right?

Screw manners…you are a dead-on troll…I am saying it, and nothing you have spewed in this thread convinces me otherwise.
http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

There is a “if it feels good, do it” crowd that is decidedly libertine in nature.

This punk appears to be one of them, albeit totally lacking in any social skills.
JSobieski

had not yet been advocated.

He is a moby, and I leave him to the whalers . . .
APA Guy

Clearly, you are far from conservative. Now, go join the kos kids. Your act is exposed and tired.
tomkinney

Husqvarna. Sharper than your lame comments.
tomkinney

I spend most of my social time in Madison Wisconsin arguing with liberals when I’m not doing the same on a number of leftist sites like Daily Beast, so yes, it is with some surprise that I come here and am called a troll.

I have been a little naive about my post 9/11 conversation to conservatism, perhaps because I live in a largely liberal area and don’t get much contact with other conservatives. Those with whom I am in contact are like me, former writers for hippie entertainment or underground fish wrappers.

So I’ve been going around and bragging to my liberal friends that conservatives are actually more tolerant than liberals, though liberals have claimed to own tolerance for forever. And I’ve been telling my liberal friends that conservatives are far less judgmental than liberals.

And then I come here and because I have a slightly different take on conservatives than the pack here does, I’m called a troll.

Fine. Call me anything you want, you won’t shut me up.
http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

But I could recognize that stench a mile away.
CincoSolas_del_Bronx

the proposal I’m drafting–after a lot of “listening to the other side”. Something in it for everybody:

1) Replace DADT with
2) Oriented Battalions whose
3) deployment would depend on majority vote at Regiment level;
4) replace drug-related incarceration with options to
5) serve in such a battalion,
6) register in a state-enforced LGBT Marriage Leftovers lottery, or
7) patrol the border on foot with a camera mounted inconspicuously atop a 12-foot-high DEA standard.
http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

Yes, yes I will.
texasref

I smelled patchouli oil wafting from my laptop and had to find out why.

Now it all starts to make sense.

P.S.; au revoir, Tom
http://moelane.com/ Moe Lane

The ironic part? The social moderate/libertarian-friendly Contributor is signing off on the atheist Contributor’s decision to toss this winner.
Repair_Man_Jack

were more than cancelled out by poor judgement and lack of refinement. Sad, very sad. (But only for limited values of sad).
http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

Come and see the violence inherent in the theocracy.
acat

Can say I’m impressed with Bill S.’s restraint.

Mew
aesthete

He was the best troll we’ve had in a while.

“I’m not a troll”, followed by epic trolling… that’s always fun.
gekster

I don’t read diaries where the author asks for it to be read, as most others here won’t either.
morstar150

Do I need the sophomoric “lol,” to make a point?
gekster

And you only need sophmoric if you are sophmoric.

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