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Why Zimmerman Has Not Been Arrested

An awful lot of people in the media and on various blogs are demanding the police arrest Zimmerman. This is just another indicator that 99% of the folks in this country really don’t know how our criminal justice system works. It is exceptionally stunning to me that a lot of lawyers are in the group crying for the police to arrest Zimmerman and hold him for trial. They, of all people, should know better.

Arrest is the taking of a person into lawful custody. The operative word in that sentence is LAWFUL. The police at this point CANNOT arrest Zimmerman without an arrest warrant having been issued. He is protected by the Fourth Amendment, which prohibits the government from making an unreasonable seizure of a person (an arrest) without a warrant, issued under probable cause. The ability for cops to arrest based on probable cause is an EXCEPTION to the warrant rule, held by the courts to be a ‘reasonable’ seizure without a warrant if founded in exigent circumstances.

The Fifth Amendment also comes into play, wherein nobody may not be held to answer for a “capital or otherwise infamous crime” except upon indictment by a Grand Jury (when a DA charges a crime, the indictment is at some point rubber-stamped by a Grand Jury), nor shall any person be deprived of their liberty without due process of law.

What this means in practical terms is that officers can arrest without a warrant for probable cause WHEN THE ARREST IS MADE AS A MATTER OF EXIGENT CIRCUMSTANCE. Put in plain language, that means it has to pretty much be done contemporaneously with the initial investigation of the crime….. and additional criteria must be met for the arrest to be legal. There has to be probable cause to believe a crime has been committed (i.e. that ALL of the specific elements outlined in the code which defines the crime have been met and that the person being arrested is the person who met them).

Where there is doubt in the minds of the police as to whether or not a crime was committed, the proper way to proceed is to investigate and submit the product of the investigation to the DA….. NOT to arrest.

Also considered in this determination is the ability of the police to adequately determine identity of the suspect, likelihood of flight, likelihood of danger to the community, and likelihood of loss of evidence (e.g. in a DUI, evidence is automatically lost merely by the passage of time, so DUI arrests are almost always contemporaneous with the perceived commission of the crime).

If any of the criteria are lacking, the police MUST submit their product of their investigation to the DA and/or the Grand Jury in lieu of arresting. Once the DA (or in the case of a violation of federal law, the US Attorney) has had a chance to review the case, the police, generally speaking, no longer have an option to arrest on probable cause. There can be exceptions, but they are few and far between, rely once again on an exigent circumstance, and have no application in this case. A warrant has to be issued as a Grand Jury Indictment OR by competent judicial authority. This is what is meant in the Sixth Amendment by “due process of law.”

The NORMAL process is for the DA, or special prosecutor to compile a list of the charges, a breakdown of the evidence gathered to that point, an explanation of the legality of the initial police contact with the suspect, and an explanation of how the evidence demonstrates a meeting of the requirements of the various elements of the specific statutes for which a violation is alleged (the probable cause part). A judge reviews that information and makes a determination on whether or not the DA has met all the requirements of the law, and if so, issues an arrest warrant. The police can THEN go legally pick Zimmerman up. If they do so otherwise at this point, it is by definition a false arrest, and the City of Sanford would be subject to rather severe civil penalties for having allowed it.

Individual state laws define who has authority to arrest, and under what circumstances, but that authority is always limited by the Constitution. Every state has some form of citizen’s arrest law on the books, but since the citizens are by definition NOT part of the criminal justice system (except as to their responsibilities as triers of fact in a jury trial), a citizen’s arrest is in reality not so much an arrest as a detention for purposes of handing a suspect over to the police. What the police do once the suspect is handed over, varies somewhat from state to state, but in most cases they have the authority to either accept the subject and continue the arrest process, cite them to appear in court later, or release the subject on the spot based on the police determination of whether or not there is, in fact, a crime AND sufficient evidence to justify an arrest.

The bottom line in this case……. The police in Florida do not have the authority to arrest Zimmerman at this point until an arrest warrant is issued by a competent judicial authority or the Grand Jury.

And believe me….. we do not want to live in a country where police can arrest someone just because the citizens are crying out for it to happen, or, for that matter, because someone on the police department WANTS to.

Why, then you ask, doesn’t the DA in Sanford seek an arrest warrant at this point? There could be any number of reasons. The first that comes to mind is, HE MAY WELL NOT HAVE EVIDENCE THAT A CRIME WAS EVEN COMMITTED. 1.) If the evidence gathered thus far (that is the evidence… not the conjecture of the media or of bloggers) indicates Zimmerman was defending himself in a legal manner, no judge will issue the warrant. 2.) If the police
botched the evidence collection in such a way as to make it inadmissible…. inadmissible evidence is the same as not having any as far as the courts are concerned. 3.) The evidence he has thus far may be insufficient to meet the ‘probable cause’ criteria.

The DA may also not yet have sought a warrant because:
He may have cause to believe the initial contact by the police was illegal. This is unlikely, but does occur on occasion. I once had a case thrown out because I responded to a large fight with lights and siren blaring, and failed to shut them off before entering the actual parking lot where the fight was happening. The judge determined that my lights and siren constituted a ‘detention’ of the suspects before I had personally observed a violation of law (I couldn’t actually see them fighting because of the crowd of people around them until I broke through the crowd), so the detention was illegal and the case was thrown out. That judge’s ruling would have likely been overturned on appeal, but the case was not big enough to justify the expense of going through that process. If there is doubt, he’s not going to want the case thrown out early in the prosecution for that reason. In such an instance, he would probably wait for a Grand Jury indictment before proceeding.

There may be further indication that additional evidence is likely (e.g. additional witnesses have or are expected to give statements, and the veracity of their statements must be checked out, or lab results that take time to process have not yet posted) a warrant should not be sought until at least the vast majority of relevant evidence is secured, and that evidence meets criteria for successful prosecution.

The DA, before he seeks a warrant, has to keep in mind that if an arrest warrant issues, in most places he has about 48 hours to get the defendant in front of a judge for indictment (the judicial process in which charges are leveled), and that the subject has a right to a speedy trial. That means in most jurisdictions in this country the defendant can demand his trial within, say, ten days. That means a preliminary hearing to determine whether or not there is sufficient cause to even hold a trial will be held within that period. If the DA cannot present sufficient cause to bind Zimmerman over for trial (e.g. the defense argues a CREDIBLE self-defense theory in combination with evidence for the prosecution that is not fully developed), the case will be dismissed. And even if bound over for trial, if there is not sufficient evidence to convince the jury, the case can be lost…. and the double jeopardy clause in the Fifth Amendment can prevent any further prosecution for the particular alleged crime.

What THIS means in practical terms, is that in a case like this, the DA is NOT going to seek an arrest warrant until he is prepared to carry through on a full prosecution, with a good likelihood of conviction, and he would be wasting the taxpayers’ money if he did.

COMMENTS

  • PGDeFreese

    NT

  • christopher770

    Good post. Thanks

  • hls87

    because there’s no case against him. To get a manslaughter conviction the prosecution would have to show, beyond reasonable doubt, that Zimmerman didn’t act in self-defense. No evidence has come out that would even begin to satisfy this burden of proof and there’s no reason to expect that any will. That’s why Zimmerman wasn’t charged immediately after the event and why he won’t be charged unless the grand jury is blown around by the political wind.

    • UpLateAgain

      about there being insufficient evidence against him…. at least to the point of the case being turned over to the special prosecutor. One can surmise that simply from the fact that Zimmerman was not arrested.

      To presume that there never will be a case against him, however, is as unfounded as his presumption of guilt by the NFM and liberal America. We don’t know, because the details we have that indicate one position in the case are still nebulous and challenged by people on the other side of the issue.

      It is looking more and more every day as if it’s the case that charges will not be forthcoming…. if for no other reason than there continues to be no issuance of a warrant despite what is clearly significant pressure for the special prosecutor to seek one. With each day that passes, the odds grow in Zimmerman’s favor, but he’s not out of the woods yet.

      It is within the realm of the possible that the prosecutor is just rounding out his case before he makes the commitment. There is clearly a need here to be sure every ‘t’ is crossed and every ‘i’ dotted. If there turns out to be a case, and the prosecutor blows it, he’s going to be forever remembered for making a fool of himself on a national stage, and possibly precipitation a lot of really ugly civil disobedience around the country.

      And it would not is he least surprise me to see Holder charge Zimmerman with a federal civil rights violation regardless of what occurs under Florida law.

      • http://itsaboutliberty.com bigalsouth

        In many states (mine: N.C.) the office of the District Attorney is an elected position. In the Duke LaCross case, the D.A. was in a tight primary race with an African-American candidate. This political pressure cause Nifong to engage in very poor judgment, ruining his career, along with the reputations of the Duke athletes. (HIs star witness is currently in a NC prison serving time for the stabbing murder of her boyfriend. Karma)

        I will bet that this case will be litigated at the State level, if not at the Federal level as a civil rights violation by the corrupt Holder Injustice Department. Sharpton, Jackson, New Black Panther Party members and members of the Congressional Black Caucus are going to exert political pressure until Zimmerman is arrested.

        The case will implode as there are witnesses placing Trayvon on top of Zimmerman, beating him, prior to the fatal shot being fired, as Zimmerman screams “get him (Martin) off of me! Get him off of me!”

      • civil truth

        …but if the state doesn’t charge, I fully expect they’ll file charges just to keep the pot boiling until November – and maybe even if the state does charge., just to tighten the screws and to get a preview in case of acquittal.

        • Flagstaff

          No matter the facts, it’s a positive situation for the incumbent Campaigner in Chief.

      • hls87

        One can imagine evidence that would arguably establish beyond reasonable doubt that Zimmerman attacked Martin rather than the other way around. Little green men could descend from the mother ship and give prosecutors a high-quality audio and visual record of the entire fracas conclusively establishing that Zimmerman was the aggressor and that he’s lied about it. Such evidence, however, is extremely unlikely to emerge.

        Many people seem to think that further investigation may yield evidence to support a prosecution. Nobody ever says what evidence they expect investigation to turn up. Anyone who tried would only sound silly. None of the possibilities are a lot more probable than my little green men scenario. I think we can safely assume that Marttin isn’t going to testify; what can a prosecutor with a heavy burden of proof to bear do in this situation? He can punt, that’s about it.

        The details of what passed between Zimmerman and Martin in the crucial seconds before Martin died will probably never be known. That means the party with the burden of proof loses. In this instance, that’s the prosecution (once the defense satisfies its burden of coming forward with evidence sufficient to establish a prima facie case of self-defense which it will do without breaking a sweat). It also means that Zimmerman will never be charged unless prosecutors (state or federal) responding to political pressure try to railroad him in classic totalitarian fashion.

        The only reason anyone is talking about this case is that the left thinks it can, once again, abuse the criminal justice system by making it a political tool. The ongoing investigation means that they have already succeeded, at least in part. If they can keep this matter alive until November they will have succeeded completely, even if Zimmerman is acquitted or exhonerated before trial. The whole circus is repulsive.

        • UpLateAgain

          Incorporates not only the forensic evidence available to the DA, but the electronic records (dispatch tapes, phone records, etc) and statements of people purporting to have knowledge surrounding the event as well. It is not uncommon for testimony to be impeached, not for the statement of a witness to be invalidated. What if, for instance, a statement by a witness that appears to carry significant weight is invalidated because it is subsequently proven that the witness was elsewhere when he/she supposedly viewed the incident.

          What if, instead of actually listening to the original dispatch tapes, the investigators proceeded based on what they heard NBC broadcast as the original dispatch tapes…. which tapes have subsequently shown to have been doctored. They may well have decided to go back to square one….. which would take time. I’m not saying this happened. I’m saying I’ve seen some pretty silly things (in retrospect) done during investigations, and I have taken shortcuts myself that had to be retraced. Things get overlooked… even by veteran investigators. Any cop that tells you that never happens, or that he hasn’t had to go back to re-interview witnesses NOT because of discrepancies in what the said but because of obvious things the cop overlooked isn’t being completely honest with you.

          My point is that the lack of a warrant being issued thus far does not preclude one being issued tomorrow….. and though the likelihood decreases with each passing day, it is certainly not going to require something of an order of magnitude of little green men suddenly popping up and providing evidence for it to happen.

          The only issue here is whether or not the Florida authorities are doing what they can to fully investigate this case and will proceed on the basis of their findings. If you think the game is rigged (toward either side), no argument for patience will suffice. If not, then we just need to wait. Zimmerman isn’t going away, and Martin isn’t coming back. As much truth as can be gleaned, will be gleaned, and it will be reported in the fullness of time.

          • hls87

            And it won’t change a thing, Invesigators are not invested with any magic powers. There is no likely scenario under which a prosecution would be able to carry its heavy burden of proof. A lot of people have been watching too much CSI and giving too little thought to epistemology. There is a great deal that we can never know. When a criminal trial turns on something we cannot know (such as exaclty what happened in the moments before Martin died) the party with the burden of proof loses.

            This really isn’t all that complicated. It’s a mystery why so many people have so much trouble grasping it.

        • Flagstaff

          Some kind of technical magic may establish that the voice heard calling for help on the 911 call is Zimmerman’s or that it’s Martin’s.

          An accurate timeline may be established from 911 calls and other sources, proving something or other.

          A real eye-witness may turn up.

          Eric the Holder’s lackey’s will keep rousting homeless people in Florida until they find one willing to testify that he saw Zimmerman kill Martin in cold blood.

    • SoFiMil

      there is no evidence that Zimmerman did not act in self-defense (standard use of the word — not in the SYG sense.

      • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

        Under the Common Law one is allowed to stand their ground if they can not avoid possible physical harm by easily escaping. There is little difference in fact situations that would require the FL law to save a defendant.

      • UpLateAgain

        in this case is going to be who is finally determined to be the aggressor when all the facts are in and known. A couple of folks here are right. Stand Your Ground per-se is not needed to be able to claim self-defense.

        BUT….. if, in the final analysis, it turns out that Zimmerman confronted Martin (looking less and less like that’s the case…. but all the facts are REALLY not yet in), then SYG could apply…. only it would be Martin who was standing his ground.

        e.g. a POSSIBLE scenario that would make that case would be one in which Zimmerman approached Martin, showed the gun in his waist band, and said something, to indicate the possibility that Martin was about to be assaulted with the gun, and Martin reacted violently before Zimmerman could pull it out. In such a scenario, Zimmerman’s going to have a problem.

        Of course, nothing happens in a vacuum, and the circumstances surrounding the actual confrontation as it occurred will likely be determinate as to who is deemed the ‘aggressor’… and therefore determinate as to whether charges against Zimmerman are ultimately filed.

        • Dave_A

          IIRC, future announcements are pending… We’ll see what the police & DA, and the State come up with…

          I leave the Feds out of that list, because the only way they’ll get involved is if someone lower down really screwed the investigation up…

          And no, I don’t think the US DOJ will engage in politically-motivated prosecution of some dude in FL, just because it’s an election year…

          Playing politics with voter-ID laws? Sure… One guy in FL? Not worth their time.

          • UpLateAgain

            with Stacy Koon in the Rodney King incident. I think it likely this will ultimately have every bit as much potential for race-riot aftermath…… particularly if Zimmerman ends up not only not being convicted, but not being charged.

          • http://pocketchangeproductions.net/ anotherindyfilmguy

            It would essentially backfire against the administration to pursue charges if Florida does not.

            For that reason alone I’d be surprised if they did go after him and if so they’d better have video evidence that contradicts the eyewitness testimony. Barring having something like that it’s a non-starter of a case from what’s been currently been said and any approved pursuit of the case by the DOJ should be grounds for impeachment of both Holder and Obama.

          • UpLateAgain

            The reason I think it quite possible is it would serve to enhance racial division (something the Obama Administration never seems to miss an opportunity to try to do), and provide grist for the mills of the anti-gun faction in this country. The likelihood of convicting Zimmerman if Florida exonerated him would be a secondary consideration to this bunch.

            There was video, true, in the King case, but this case involves a death. A lot of anti-gun people see Florida’s fairly liberal concealed carry laws as a travesty, and would love to see federal civil rights found to have been violated not so much in spite of the Florida laws, but as proof of the need for the feds to step in and put controls on Florida in place.

          • edintexas

            I don’t know how much time you have spent with US Attorneys, and Assistant US Attorneys, or even State AG personnel. I had a couple of decades of such contact before I retired, and I firmly believe the current US AG, and his Civil Rights Division, are so politically motivated that it is virtually inconceivable that they would pass on the opportunity to keep this going until November. Lest we forget, the incident was about a month old when the MSM and the Left (I know, a repetition) discovered it. It has been drummed up as a major “case” and isn’t going away just because the facts might get in the way (witness the NBC handling of the dispatch tapes – even “Mother Jones” was more honest). If FL doesn’t prosecute (not a guarantee either way yet), Holder will be strongly inclined to “investigate civil rights violations”.

          • edintexas

            Forgot to add that if Holder wants an investigation not only the Civil Rights Division of main Justice, but also the local US Attorney (who is a political appointee of the Administration), will be strongly inclined to do as Holder wishes.

          • UpLateAgain

            This morning Fox News announced Holder has sent an FBI task force to Florida which has one responsibility…. to investigate the incident to see if they can charge Zimmerman with a federal violation of Martin’s civil rights.

            Gee….. what a surprise…….

        • morrigan

          >”if, in the final analysis, it turns out that Zimmerman confronted Martin (looking less and less like that?s the case?. but all the facts are REALLY not yet in), then SYG could apply?. only it would be Martin who was standing his ground.”

          The SYG law does not permit you to use force against someone on the grounds that they “confronted” you. Text of the law below.

          “A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.”

          If Zimmerman initiated the use of force then Martin was justified in using force in response. But being “confronted” does not meet the letter of the law.

          • UpLateAgain

            Zimmerman had a gun. We don’t know the exact nature of such a hypothetical confrontation, but Zimmerman had a gun, so in such a confrontation, a scenario where Martin was the one ‘standing his ground’ is quite plausible.

          • morrigan

            >”Zimmerman had a gun”

            Which tells us nothing, absent any evidence that he threatened Martin with it, or even that Martin saw it.

            >”in such a confrontation, a scenario where Martin was the one ?standing his ground? is quite plausible.”

            That’s another way of saying that you can construct a hypothetical scenario in which Martin had good cause to be beating on Zimmerman. So can I.

            But it remains the case that the SYG law does not allow anybody to use force because they were “confronted”.

            “Hey, what are you dong around here” is an example of being confronted.

            Pointing a gun at somebody is not.

          • edintexas

            UpLateAgain is engaging either in hypotheticals, or wishful thinking. If there was any evidence of the Zimmerman having threatened Martin, such evidence would surely have surfaced by now. No witnesses have come forth with information which would support any such scenario. The dispatch tape certainly does not support such scenario. Which leaves Zimmerman as the potential source of statements supporting such a scenario. Even if it were true (far fetched as it is), is Zimmerman so mentally unstable as to pull a TV mystery ending and break down and confess?

          • UpLateAgain

            The case against Zimmerman gets weaker with each passing day. But a blanket statement that he is never going to be arrested is, IMHO, foolish.

            I’m neither “engaging in hypotheticals” nor “wishful thinking” as a way touting Zimmerman’s guilt, OR innocence for that matter. I have no desire whatsoever for a particular outcome beyond the truth being found. I am saying we don’t know. And I can certainly envision scenarios that would support EITHER finding based on what IS known.

          • UpLateAgain

            that you actually DO know the nature of the confrontation, and can state unequivocally that Zimmerman did not point a gun at Martin.

            Hmmmm. Why haven’t you presented your evidence to the police?

          • morrigan

            Nothing I wrote can be construed as my saying “I know what happened” or “I can state unequivocally that Zimmerman did not point a gun at Martin”.

            Go back and read the comment you were responding to.

            I pointed out that being confronted by somebody (for any normal use of the word “confronted”) does not meet the legal standard under the Florida SYG law for use of force. You may use force if you are attacked, you may respond to force with force, you may use force to prevent the commission of a forcible felony. But you may not use force because you were confronted, or because somebody was following you.

        • http://lukos.com Ed54

          is playing out almost exactly like you describe it in another test case. This one happened in Valrico (near Tampa), in my neighborhood, last summer. A young (late 30′s) father was playing basketball at the community park with his 8 year old daughter while some boys skateboarded nearby. An older man (late 60′s) across the street who was known for chasing off skateboarders from the park came out and yelled at them. The younger guy and the older guy exchanged words. At some point the older guy reportedly exposed his weapon, causing the younger guy to lunge at him to disarm him. A struggle ensued, at the end of which the younger guy was shot to death in front of his daughter. The older man is being prosecuted, and is claiming SYG as his defense.

          Oh, BTW, the older guy is black and the younger guy was white.

  • UpLateAgain

    They broadcast a supposed dispatch tape in which Zimmerman was clearly heard to say to the dispatcher, “He looks suspicious. He looks like he’s black”. The playing of this tape was no doubt a major contributing factor in people all across the country deciding that Zimmerman was racial profiling.

    Only NBC edited the tape. In the original, Zimmerman made the comment about the subject looking suspicious, and was then asked by the dispatcher who was trying to get a description information for the dispatched officers, “Is he white, black, Hispanic?” …. to which Zimmerman answered, “He looks like he’s black.”

    None of that changes the facts of the case once contact was made between Zimmerman and Martin, but it does bring into question the credibility of ANYTHING NBC reports regarding this incident (or for that matter, in general).

  • greyeagle

    is going to continue to be a wild one. Zimmerman had a broken bloody nose and big cut on the back of his heat. He was treated by paramedics at the scene. So by the time he was taken to the Police station, he was cleaned up. If patients are bloody, paramedics will clean them up so they can look at the wounds. Everybody and their brother is doing an investigation. People from out of state, need to go home and let the numerous people do their jobs.

    • UpLateAgain

      An argument I’ve heard a dozen times in all different kinds of media is that Zimmerman’s shirt wasn’t bloody when he was videoed walking into the police station. Only this is how it would have likely gone down.

      When the paramedics arrived at the scene and started treating Zimmerman, they would have removed his shirt immediately….. probably in the back of the ambulance. The officer in attendance would have said, “Give that to me. I’m going to have to place it into evidence.” After he was treated, they would have advised him that they were going to have to place the rest of his clothing into evidence as well, and suggested he have someone get him a change of clothing, as they would not have paraded him around naked. Someone (probably his father) did so, and they had him finish changing in the back of the ambulance. If he’d been under arrest, they MAY (and I mean MAY) have taken him to the station in his original clothing and seized it there. But without him being under arrest, a seizure of the clothing as evidence on the spot would have been the more correct procedure.

      If they felt arrest was needed for control purposes, the clothing change and seizure would have likely been accomplished in a secure facility…… but if they didn’t have that need, they would want to seize the clothing as soon as it was feasible to do so to prevent further contamination,

      The bruising around a broken nose can well not show up adequately to be evident on film for a day or two. It is standard practice to photograph battery victims a couple of days after the
      assault for exactly that reason.

      Net result, Zimmerman is filmed entering the station looking relatively pristine….. at least with the acuity that sort of camera has to offer.

      All this, however, is still only circumstantially relevant to the issue of who was the aggressor in the actual confrontation.

      • http://lukos.com Ed54

        If they say they treated him for road rash on the back of his head, that would be pretty strong corroboration for his version of the story, no?

        • UpLateAgain

          Under normal circumstances, their medial report serves as the ‘statement’ where paramedics are concerned. The medical records for Zimmerman that are placed into evidence would normally include both the records of the paramedics, and any follow-up treatments.

          In most states, where a battery has occurred, medical records can be relevant for quite some time. For example, in California, if a man were to die of a Cerebral Vascular Accident up to a year after a battery, and the medical examiner related the bleed to the head trauma he incurred as the battery victim, the assailant could be charged with the appropriate degree of murder/homicide relative to the nature of the battery. That’s a full year later.

          In this case, since there are now so many agencies involved in investigating this incident (Sanford Police, FL Dept. of Justice, FBI), it is quite likely that written statements were taken from the paramedics in addition to their completed treatment reports by at least one of the agencies.

          • Scope

            and he even states that Zimmerman should be arrested even before the investigation is complete. I am so sick and tired of these race baiters, which now include Juan Williams. Arrest someone even before an investigation is complete? Race baiting.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            my 20 years as a criminal defense lawyer given that we have a dead man admittedly not armed, a shooter, and no witnesses other than the defendant to exactly how the two med encountered each other and who struck the first blow.

            However, we are beginning to see now why the D.A. rejected the police’s desire to arrest and charge the shooter. I suspect that the D.A. thinks they don’t have enough evidence to prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt and that is an acceptable position to take. I certainly am not generally for prosecutions that the State doesn’t think they can win.

            There are exceptions however, and it certainly would be within prosecutorial ethics and discretion to decide to proceed given the corpus delecti and to let the jury decide.

            I do think that Juan and others should respect the current process however and should not be calling for an arrest before the Grand Jury and the state make and announce a decision.

            Juan doesn’t like the race baiters and has proven that with books and with being fired from CNN when he took of Jesse Jackson on Crossfire in the 90s, and so he should not give them any encouragement.

            It is also a fact that police do decide in a not small number of homicides to not charge based upon the evidence.

          • jakeofalltrades

            My thoughts exactly. There is a very good argument for letting a jury decide and put the matter to rest.

            Unfortunately, arresting him now would only be throwing a bone to a hungry mob. They should announce that they will never arrest him, and shoot dead anyone who riots, to purge the taint from among us.

          • Scope

            that you consistently always find yourself agreeing with both opposing positions? This seems to be a pattern of your’s. You say X in this post, and then find yourself agreeing with Y in another post. Is your position based on who is making the post more so than what your true sentiments are on any given issue. I may be wrong here but, I’ve found your positions to be at times conflicting.

          • jakeofalltrades

            or two. The issue of the benefits of a jury deciding the case is separate from the constitutionality and morality of arresting Zimmerman.

          • Tbone

            just to see if 12 people who are so stupid that that can’t get out of jury service might find you guilty of something?

            Your comment ranks up with the most inane I have ever read that weren’t written by GC when he is drunk.

          • aesthete

            the next time Jake commits homicide in a case where the facts are ambiguous.

            Seriously, I don’t think Zimmerman should be arrested, but this is exactly the sort of case that grand juries were established for. If you don’t like the jury-based system, just say so — but don’t pretend that asking a grand jury to review the case is like taking Torquemada’s side in the Inquisition.

          • demsaresatanic

            appease the mob. It is, after all, not the Inquisition, innocent men do sometimes escape.

          • Tbone

            Not only do the little these type of people want to appease the mob, they want to appease the mob because they are white and the mob is black.

          • Scope

            that exists at this time is that no one knows all of the facts. No investigative reports have been released, and the special prosecutor has not released the information she will be making her decision based upon. To say that the facts are ambiguous is an understatement, as the facts to us not involved in the investigation have not yet been revealed. So let’s just take what has been reported, especially by NBC, ABC and CNN, the brilliant opinions of those like Juan Williams, Bill O’Reilly, and Shepard Smith, and stick this guy in front of a jury, just because there may be some rioting that would commence if the guy isn’t hung in the public square, tomorrow at high noon.

            Not sure about your idea that some want to appease the mob rulers because they are white and the mob is black. At least one of the commenters above is speaking from a non-white perspective. The police were immediately blamed for being so dumb they couldn’t move forward without tripping over their own feet, and botching the original investigation. Hey, maybe we should be calling for the police to be put on trial as well, even though we don’t have any of those facts either.

          • Tbone

            where the facts are “ambiguous”. You really trust 12 idiots to “disambiguous” the facts?

          • UpLateAgain

            My argument is that 782.07 SPECIFICALLY PROHIBITS ARREST, if that particular element of the corpus (i.e. NOT falling within the parameters of Chapter 776) are not met.

            I’m not arguing your definition of probable cause. I’m arguing its insufficiency with regard to the specific corpus of manslaughter in Florida (which is, admittedly, likely to be fairly unique.) The law doesn’t appear to grant leeway, unless the self-defense is reasonably believed to be ‘unlawful’. The law certainly doesn’t admit the “grounds” definition of PC you referenced above as an exception.

            I saw an interview with the Special Prosecutor yesterday, in which she essentially said as much, claiming there has been no arrest because the Florida law includes a positive defense element that is not easily overcome.

            I think it likely that it is just that that hung the state’s atty up on arresting the night of the incident as well…. and it wouldn’t surprise me to see the Special Prosecutor awaiting an opinion from Pam Bondi on that specific issue before proceeding.

            I respect your opinion on this matter. You’re the working legal eagle…. I’m just an old retired street cop.

            Were I the prosecutor, and I wanted to get this thing charged (which there is CLEARLY a great deal of pressure to do), I think I’d probably test the lawfulness of that self-defense under Florida 782.11, which could bring into question the lawfulness of the self-defense based on a use of excessive force.

            With the world watching, they are going to have every aspect of this thing covered thoroughly from a legal standpoint. Time will be taken. Nobody is going to want to stand up and say, “Wow. You know, that never really occurred to me.”

          • westcoastpatriette

            If Zimmerman were a police officer and he killed Martin under the exact same circumstances, there would be no question that he acted lawfully. My understanding here in Cali is that LEO’s are justified and do use lethal force frequently under much less threatening situations than what Zimmerman encountered (if his version of the incident is accurate.) There would be no one examining whether the self-defense of the officer did not merit the deadly force used by the cops. Case closed. But because Zimmerman is a civilian we are supposed to suspend his right to defend himself when his life is in imminent danger just to satisfy a blood-thirsty mob of race-baiters.

            I really hope Florida officials do not succumb to taking actions that would not otherwise be warranted just to satisfy those who refuse to accept the reality of the situation given the current state of the laws in Fla.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            because of the great respect for police even in cases involving an unarmed non-police “victim”.

          • westcoastpatriette

            but most of those cases are where the police felt threatened because the suspect had pulled out a weapon that they thought was a gun and the police were justified in using deadly force. Even when it was discovered that the suspect had only pulled out a cigarette lighter, the fact that the officers were convinced it was a gun was enough to satisfy grounds to use lethal force. I have never heard of an officer having to defend his use of lethal force when he had been physically punched to the ground and the suspect continued beating him.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            Enntea

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            Could have been justified in throwing a first punch against Zimmerman. That there is no ordinary “duty” to retreat doesn’t matter much in any event the fla law notwithstanding because there is never any right to initiate physical contact except under narrow circumstances and it seems likely that Martin was in the wrong if he initiated physical contact.

          • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

            admittedly we really don’t know them, but it appears that Zimmerman began the confrontation, and ended it by killing an unarmed man. I really don’t see any way he should not be charged with something, at least manslaughter.

            He was looking for trouble and when he got it, he killed a person. That is pretty straightforward.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            Is what matters. One can’t have license to initiate physical contact just because one is being followed.

          • UpLateAgain

            Police shootings (especially in California) are among the most-scrutinized shootings that occur. LEOs have to meet a standard set in the shooting policies of their respective departments, which is inevitably more stringent than the requirements of the law. They may vary slightly in verbiage, but what they generally amount-to is deadly force can only be used to prevent death or serious injury, AND only when all other means of resistance are inadequate.

            That CAN get tricky at times, because police officers receive training in defensive tactics, and the departments have a duty of care to ensure that training is kept up to date.

            That doesn’t mean an officer cannot go instantly from no force to deadly force if that is what is warranted, but it will have to be justified more extensively than would be the case for the average civilian who is not expected to have expertise in defensive tactics.

            Use of force policy is one of the most HIGHLY trained-on, and often taught topics of professional conduct in just about any police organization.

            I remember a female Oakland cop who was severely beaten by a subject half again her size, who did not use her gun in trying to defend herself. She was hospitalized weeks, and had a couple of months convalescence before she was able to return to duty. Her first day back, they put her on administrative leave and processed her for a medical retirement, because she told the departmental psych that she would never again allow herself to be beaten that way, and she was afraid that if someone even raised a fist to her, she would shoot instantly. In other words, she was no longer able to rationally meet the departmental requirements for use of force.

            Had they let her stay on, and she killed someone under less than justified circumstances, nor only would she be at risk for criminal prosecution AND for personal civil liability for acting outside the scope of her training and employment, but OPD and the City of Oakland would have bought into major liability as well.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            It seems to me that it is likely that a jury would conclude, based on what we know, don’t know, and is likely concerning what the normal way a fight starts, that Trayvon probably threw the first blow and was not justified in his altercation with Zimmerman; however, Zimmerman still has additional hurdle, and this will be whether he will be cut the slack for not using his weapon in a non-deadly manner. The specifics of the testimony of the eyewitnesses that arrived after the start of the fight but who saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman and were present when the shot was fired will be crucial.

            Do you think Zimmerman was probably negligent in not shooting the unarmed man in a place less likely to kill him?

          • Next93

            If someone’s sitting on your chest and bashing your skull into the sidewalk (that is, exercising deadly force), most people wouldn’t be thinking about how to inflict a wound that will be non-leathal but will leave the assailant unable to continue the assault. They’re going to be thinking along the lines of “Ow! Ow! Ow! Holy Christ, he’s trying to kill me and it hurts like crap and I need to make it stop NOW!!!”.

            And as I understand it, the Castle Defense laws were intended aleviate the need to think like a lawyer while dealing with immenent physical danger.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            Will be crucial

          • Common_Cents

            If you feel threatened its center of mass all the way. I don’t think its taught any other way, even to law enforcement.

          • UpLateAgain

            to make a case against Zimmerman based on some kind of duty to attempt to injure rather than kill. Shooting the gun out of the bad guy’s hand is movie stuff (though I did once see an officer actually do it during a 7-11 robbery. Pure accident of course. But at least the officer had the presence of mind to raise the tip of the barrel in front of his lips and blow the smoke away before re-holstering).

            In the real world they teach officers to aim for center of mass when firing. There’s really only one reason for it. Once one makes the decision to go ahead and pull the trigger, adrenaline levels are often so high that control of the firearm becomes difficult, and the whole point of firing the weapon is to force the assailant to stop. His adrenaline levels are high as well, so even if you hit him in a critical area, it may not stop him for a while. If you hit him in a non-critical area, it may not stop him at all.

            Most gun fights take place within just a few feet, and yet around 80% of the rounds fired miss their target. It is not uncommon for an officer to fire 6 or 7 rounds at an assailant 3 feet away, and actually put the first 5 into the ground as he is bringing the weapon up from his holster.

            Between perceiving the threat and reacting to it (which includes a mental recognition that you are going to have to kill… or at least that your next actions are likely to do so), there is a recognizable moment of hesitation. It may be very small time-wise, but to the shooter it is a very clear and distinct moment. A decision is made to shoot, and once the decision is made, you feel like you have lost time in making the decision and have to play catch up, or you may not get the shot off in time and you will be the one that dies. At least that is how it affected me when I had to make that decision.

            That whole process actually takes place in a fraction of a second, but seems like several seconds. Your field of vision shrinks dramatically, and you may lose your ability to hear sounds at all. Once you make the decision to shoot, the only thing you are thinking about is getting the shot off as close to where you are looking as you can get it, and as rapidly as you can. The people analyzing the shooting later may take months to reason through what the shooter goes through in hundredths of a second. This is why training is so critical. Muscle memory takes over (it’s actually a spinal reflex I believe) and increases the chances of the shooter actually getting the rounds to strike where the shooter’s mind wants them-to.

            So how does that relate to a situation like Zimmerman’s? Though he likely didn’t have any muscle memory to assist him, he no doubt went through the rest of the physiological reactions. If he was getting his head smashed into the concrete, and feared the next blow could well render him unconscious, he likely was just trying to get a shot off to stop Martin if possible. The odds of him actually knowing where the barrel of the gun was exactly pointing are pretty slim IMHO. Oddly enough, having enough presence of mind at the critical moment to consider a wounding shot would have argued the necessity to shoot at all. His greatest justification comes in an assertion on his part that he felt he had no other option and was just doing what he could to save himself from death or serious injury….and he had to do it NOW.

            The defense would be able to present experts that could testify to the physiological reactions the body goes through during such a critical incident, and how it really isn’t possible for someone not trained and/or experienced in deadly-force combat to be able to control the kinds of factors you would have to control to be able to consider, and then make, a wounding shot in that kind of conflict.

            Zimmerman probably just squeezed the trigger, not knowing where the gun was actually pointed at all.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            It is yet another factor in a decision of whether probable cause exists to justify an arrest and/or indictment. It is a low threshold and prosecutors retain very wide discretion. But all you cite in your diary and comments are quite relevant to an evaluation of the merits of the case at trial, either substantively or from the standpoint of arguing reasonable doubt. Great discussion friend.

          • duramater

            Not only did you spare me the time and tedium of making these points, citing relevant FL statutes, you far exceeded my depth and breadth of understanding in your responses (4/7 @ 0254 and 1213) bringing up aspects I’d not considered.

            Good read and glad you’re here.

          • Scope

            is that Zimmerman should be arrested, even though you have no more evidence than the rest of us, but put him on trial, make him spend the high dollars with a “defense attorney” even though the state may not have enough evidence to guarantee a conviction, but put him on trial any way, because Juan Williams has stated that an arrest would be great, even if the state doesn’t have a strong enough case for a probable conviction. Got it. And then I will hope and pray that if my life is threatened by a thug, and I shoot him to save my own life, I should be put on trial, spend many dollars that I may not have, and suffer through a trial to prove my innocense. Where do you get some of your ideas any way? Is it the billable hours you are really talking about here?

          • izoneguy

            For being an idiot

          • westcoastpatriette

            JW idiot

          • duramater

            to him, “Juan, if you don’t stop that whining right now, I’m gonna reeeeally give you something to cry about.”

            Don’t know that I want the fella arrested. But I sure as heck want to turn off his mic.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            Zimmerman admits Trayvon was unarmed, that no third party witnessed the initial encounter between he and Trayvon, that he shot Trayvon and that Trayvon is dead. Those facts establish probable cause to arrest for homicide.

            Other physical evidence and witnesses to the fight, after the initial encounter, that tend to substantiate Zimmerman’s claims of self defense affect whether the case would survive a directed verdict or prevent there being proof beyond a reasonable doubt; but do not prevent the lower threshold of probable cause from being established.

            The main fact in Zimmerman’s favor is that there are no eye witnesses that contradict his claim that Trayvon struck the first blow. We don’t know if the witnesses to the fight later on will provide evidence that calls into doubt Zimmerman’s claimed need to use deadly force against an unarmed man.

            In any event this is a rare case of an unarmed dead man and an admitted shooter where Prosecutorial discretion could go either way based upon the evidence but other factors also come into play in discretion; and the default position in the overwhelming majority of cases like this is for the shooter to be charged.

            Now, given the impaneling of a Grand Jury, it would probably not be advised to arrest now absent new evidence and in the face of mob-like threats,, since Zimmerman’s fate is already in a stage that ordinarily comes after arrest, but in a rubber stamp phase. I suspect that this Grand Jury will be unlike those that are regularly used to indict ham sandwiches, but one thing is probably for sure:

            If the Prosecutor for the state WANTS a True Bill Indictment, he will get it. The threshold for arrest and indictment are clearly satisfied by the admitted facts.

            Yes, many factors go into whether to proceed, including the expense etc, but I must tell you after hundreds of criminal trials over 2 decades, including 5 murder trials including one death penalty case (he lives); that this is the kind of case that usually goes to trial because when you shoot an unarmed man that you ought out, society wants a clear answer to why the unarmed man is dead and a jury trial is the best way we have to deal with it.

            Now, I am by definition a civil libertarian especially on the burden the state should have to prove its case. But Zimmerman killed a man, and for that, discretion usually required the shooter to account.

          • duramater

            Ref. your statement, “…it certainly would be within prosecutorial ethics and discretion to decide to proceed given the corpus delecti and to let the jury decide.”

            Not in the state of FL, sir.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            Right after the incident and not the vicissitudes of Florida law at this stage. But I probably will soon and would appreciate if you would reply here or to my email below with links to the fla law or laws you refer to. Thx

          • Tbone

            committee whose mantra was “let’s tie and anvil to them, throw ‘em the pond and they’re innocent they’ll float”.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            However, I do think people that play Lacross should be prosecuted for that!

            Braves at Mets tomorrow at 1pm

          • Tbone

            Just pathetic.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            God I tire of your surly presence here.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            Fanity in my previous comment subject line

          • Tbone

            I guess we will both just have to persevere.

            I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that your mind was just temporarily impaired.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            God bless

          • Tbone

            Really dumb.

          • demsaresatanic

            Enjoy yourself, probable cause is merely a technicality.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            what a reasonable person would consider ******grounds for believing***** that a crime has been committed and that the suspect committed it.

            Notice the word “grounds”. Not that a “crime” has definitely occurred, but that there are “grounds” for believing same.

            Again, unarmed dead man, admitted shooter and no witnesses that would cause the former to not be grounds.

            Probable cause is not the reason Zimmerman was not arrested long ago. Prosecutorial discretion based on doubts that he has evidence beyond a reasonable doubt is the reason. I suspect the eyewitnesses to the fight are credible and substantiate Zimmerman’s claims of the need to use force to save his own life.

            The Stand Your Ground Law is really just a minor tweak to Common law self defense law that also allows people to stand their ground under most circumstances allowed by the new statute and in any event is but one factor in determining whether the state has a winnable case. Moreover, whether the SYGL applies can only be known if one knows many details of the actual encounter between the men that led to the fight and homicide.

  • Tbone

    It is not often we get this quality of thought and articulation.

    I think it clearly explains why Zimmermen has not been arrested and indicates why he probably never would have been arrested until the racist lynch mob of racebaiters and MSM showed up to score financial and political gain.

  • Common_Cents

    Intentional editing of 911 calls/transcripts.

    by NBC.

    “Great news right there. As exposed by Fox News and media watchdog site NewsBusters, the ?Today? segment took this approach to a key part of the dispatcher call:

    “Zimmerman: This guy looks like he?s up to no good. He looks black.”

    Here?s how the actual conversation went down:

    ” Zimmerman: This guy looks like he?s up to no good. Or he?s on drugs or something. It?s raining and he?s just walking around, looking about.

    Dispatcher: OK, and this guy ? is he black, white or Hispanic?

    Zimmerman: He looks black. ”

    Any people wonder why there is backlash, why people distrust the media?

    they are intentionally injecting race into this situation. How disgusting.

    • http://www.unifiedpatriots.com/ pilgrim

      I do not get how this situation is political vis a vis Democrats vs Republicans. A hispanic Democrat shot a black Democrat. Is the argument they are pushing that some Democrats are racists against other Democrats? This political furor seems to be losing steam.

      • lineholder

        I may be treading on thin ice somewhat with these comments, but they are result of my own personal observations after a protest occurred at a primarily black college in the local area.

        This is an election year. Support for Obama within the black community has decreased from over 90% to somewhere between 75% to 80%. Particularly within the college-age group, pilgrim, support for Obama and his policy positions is waning. There are organizations within the black community who do have a history of using racial scenarios as a means of attempting to inspire or reinvigorate loyalty and enthusiasm where other people of the same race are concerned.

        After reviewing the protests that took place locally, I do think this plays a part in what is transpiring. I do think it could be an effort to inspire the base within the black community.

        • Scope

          He said that there was no evidence of a fight on Martin’s body when he received it. He said there was no brusing on Martin’s knuckles.

          Was an autopsy ever done? It doesn’t appear so. The words of a mortician are not concrete as to what he viewed as opposed to an autopsy showing brusing under the skin etc.

          As to Martin’s clothing at the time of the incident, I understand that the cause of death was a bullet wound to the chest at close range. Wouldn’t Martin’s blood be on Zimmerman’s clothing if Martin was in fact on top of Zimmerman at the time of the incident? Of course it makes perfect sense that Zimmerman would have turned in his clothing even before being taken into the police station.

          Were there fingerprints of Martin’s on Zimmerman? Was any evidence of hair or fibers on Zimmerman’s clothing, if Martin was in fact on top of Zimmerman?

          I’ve also seen blown up pictures where there appears to be a line on the back of Zimmerman’s head. Those blow ups were from the police station videos.

          I’d make big bets that these questions may be a part of the investigation that has not been released for public consumption. Zimmerman’s witness, who backs him up saying Martin was on top of Zimmerman, and has asked everyone to please chill, as he claims there is evidence that is not known to the public yet that will exonerate Zimmerman.

          • ZootSuit

            There are still things that have not be explained. Or at least, not explained without contradictory evidence and testimony.

            So why is anyone — including many here — rushing to judgement one way or the other.

          • Scope

            rushing to judgement when I still question the fact that all of the evidence is still not known. I have said from the get go that no one should be convicting anyone in the court of public opinion when they simply do not have all the facts. Why the heck would I be asking questions like finger prints, fibres, autopsies etc. if I am already convicting anyone whether it Martin or Zimmerman.

            As to your comment that Zimmerman continued to follow Martin, you stated that as an absolute fact, and that is something in fact that is not known.

            I really don’t believe that many here are already saying that Zimmerman is innocent, and that Martin is guilty, or vice versa. In fact, on earlier diaries there were many more than I would ever have imagined that had already decided that Zimmerman should be hung in the public square before the next sunup. They had no more evidence than any of us have now.

            Let the police/investigators and anyone else involved do their job.

            BTW, what do you think about Sharpton and Jackson inciting massive protests in Fla, demanding that Zimmerman be arrested NOW, or they are going to start getting uglier with boycots and etc? What do you think aboyt the Black Panthers putting a bounty on Zimmerman’s head, and them not being arrested for that?

          • ZootSuit

            And please note, I commend you below for asking questions. Thank you. Sincerely, thank you.

            But as for people commending Zimmerman and saying this is an “open and shut” case where he is completely innocent, see some of the comments here:

            http://www.redstate.com/center77/2012/03/26/for-trayvon-martin-we-need-more-civility-until-facts-are-known/#comment-810

            It is to this type of thinking that I am commenting upon.

            As for Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson and the like, I detest them and hate what they are making of this situation.They are using this tragedy for their own politic ends.

            BUT I also think there are many on the Right who are doing the same thing. Just like the Al Sharptons who are haranguing on about this situation and rushing to judgement without knowing all the facts (all in the name of “racial justice”), they are also haranguing on about this situation and rushing to judgement without knowing all the facts (all in the name of “law and order”). Both sides are despicable. And yes, I am saying that those on the Right who are commending Zimmerman and complaining that further investigation should be done are morally not one whit better than the Al Sharptons and Jesse Jackson.

            And yes, if you can call the Al Sharptons and Jesse Jacksons for wanting to start some sort of race war, I honestly and sincerely am accusing many on the Right who are behaving the same way of the same thing. No apologies.

            As someone on another thread said, I am sorry that the response of more conservatives wasn’t simply, “I’m not on the Grand Jury so I don’t know the facts. Let’s pray.”

          • lineholder

            I think Zimmerman should be allowed due process under the scope of the law. No pronouncements of innocence or guilt should be pre-determined at this point by anyone.

            If the man is proven guilty, then he should be proclaimed guilty and convicted under the scope of the law.

            BTW, Zoot Suit, I want to make sure you realize that part of my viewpoint expressed in my comments to this thread are influenced by the history of the area where I live. It is next to impossible for me to totally separate myself from that, although I do try to stay to the side of rule of law for ALL American citizens as much as I can.

          • Jack_Savage

            “And yes, if you can call the Al Sharptons and Jesse Jacksons for wanting to start some sort of race war, I honestly and sincerely am accusing many on the Right who are behaving the same way of the same thing.”

            Who? When? What exactly did they say or do?

          • ZootSuit

            But to give you an example, consider drivlikejehu, who I personally consider the worst of the bunch. Consider some of his comments like here: http://www.redstate.com/center77/2012/03/26/for-trayvon-martin-we-need-more-civility-until-facts-are-known/#comment-680

            It is an obvious case of self-defense and I knew it from the moment the story was reported. The left jumped on it in their desperation for a case to justify their racist and marxist agenda. Exactly like the Duke case. The facts ?weren?t known? except it was obvious to anyone with a brain what was going on.

            Or here: http://www.redstate.com/center77/2012/03/26/for-trayvon-martin-we-need-more-civility-until-facts-are-known/#comment-736

            The clowns eating up the media narrative look worse by the day. Martin was a thug. He died like one. Zimmerman is the victim.

            Emphasis added.

            And if you think I am taking his comments out of context, read the rest of his posts on the matter. In context.

            The biggest difference between ignorant yahoos like drivlikejehu and ignorant yahoos like Al Sharpton is the size of their microphones.

          • Jack_Savage

            And I read the comments, but I would say they fall more into the jumping to conclusions / making your mind up rather than agitating for a race war. And to be honest, in the absence of a video, it does seem much more plausible that Martin attacked Zimmerman and was shot rather than Zimmerman chased him down and shot him.

            The New Black Panther Party is agitating for a race war with their bounty, Rep. Rush taunts law abiding citizens with his little demonstration on the House floor, Sharpton and Jackson are Sharpton and Jackson, right on cue, Barack Obama could calm the situation, but again chooses not to, and NBC edits the 911 tapes almost to a criminal level to further agitate. I still do not see anyone on the right who is doing anything remotely comparable, and honestly wanted you to show me if there was something I was missing,

            Like it or not, there seems to be very, very little evidence for the hypothesis that Zimmerman chased Martin and gunned him down, which would be the only scenario that remotely justifies the reaction from the left and the media thus far. And one would hope that after the Duke Lacrosse fiasco, those doing the accusing would hold themselves to a bit of a higher standard in this instance.

            Anyway, I agree to disagree.

            Best
            JS

          • aesthete

            who are rushing to judgement (you are not one of them, to your credit).

            I am of the view that there’s not enough evidence to convict or arrest — but that there is enough doubt that the case should have been taken before a grand jury to determine whether the case should proceed.

          • UpLateAgain

            There are multiple references across the Internet to the autopsy done on Martin by the Volusia County medical examiner…… exactly as it should have been.

            The only state (I believe) that doesn’t require an autopsy in the case of an unattended death (that is, one where a physician was either in immediate attendance or has been monitoring a terminal medical condition) is Arkansas, and that only in cases of suicide where the cause of death is readily apparent.

            Bruising takes time to develop, and doesn’t develop if blood isn’t flowing. Blows directly to the relatively soft tissue of the nose followed up by slamming a guy’s head on the concrete may well have not produced bruising on the Martin’s knuckles in any event. If there was bruising on Martin’s knuckles, there would still be a legitimate question as to whether it was obtained in the altercation with Zimmerman. A lack of bruising is completely inconclusive either way.

            With a head injury, it would have been standard practice for the paramedics to cut Zimmerman’s shirt off him (assuming it was one that would pull over his head) to check for visible injury to his torso, rather than to pull it over his head. They may have done this even if his shirt buttoned down the front, because it is safer to do so. The shirt would have been immediately seized by the police for placement into evidence when that happened.

            You are correct about the fibers, which is the reason the clothing of both participants would have been seized.

            Bottom line: all the forensic evidence is being evaluated by professionals, and will be considered along with the testimony gathered in determining if an arrest warrant should issue.

          • http://lukos.com Ed54

            Don’t know much about forensic science, other than what I see on TV, but isn’t there a reasonable chance that the entry would might indicate what position the two parties were in when the shooting occurred?

          • UpLateAgain

            You are going to get the proximity of the gun to the target, including contact if that’s what occurred. The trajectory of the bullet through Martin’s body will also say a lot.

        • Scope

          I was just sitting here thinking that the Zimmerman/Martin incident did not occur, just to stoke racial tensions across the nation. It was a tragic situation that unfortunately happens in every state across the nation on a daily basis. Why was this particular case, that happened to take place at this time, blown up to such a degree? Why has there been no to little coverage of the white 13 year old boy, that had gasoline poured over him, and lit on fire, by some black teenagers saying this is what you get whitey, not in the news almost anywhere? Has everyone, and I mean everyone, been so completely and totally intimidated by the race baiters, to the point where black on white attacks are kept quiet?

          Obama has been baiting all along, especially when he told his supporters to “get in their faces.” Then again he has thrown huge wedges between the races, genders, classes, and even religions.

          When J. Christian Adams, the former DOJ lawyer from the civil rights division quit because the case against the voter intimidators in PA, the Black Panthers already won case was thrown out by Holder, and possibly Obama as well. Now they are free to put out bounties on citizen’s heads, and mum is the word.

          The most egregious spectacle that has taken place was with the Congressional Black caucus in DC, inviting Martin’s parents to talk before that August body. Did you see the black female “elected legislator”with the hot pink shiny cowboy hat saying that Martin was hunted down like a rabid dog, and it was clearly racial profiling. She has no more information on the investigation than anyone else, yet she has already rendered Zimmerman guilty. And she is an elected lawmaker?

          I have a very terrible feeling that racial tensions will continue to rise, and to such a point we may be seeing the Rodney King days coming back to haunt us. I’m just watching Jesse Jackson leading a march in Fla today. I’m sure Sharpton isn’t far behind.

          One day, somehow some way, Sharpton and Jackson are going to be sitting on the other side of the bars they want Zimmerman behind. If this escalates as I believe it will, they should be tried and then thrown in jail for inciting massive civic unrest that can turn really ugly really quickly.

          • lineholder

            The area I live in here in NC (Greensboro) is well-known to have a history of racial tensions that can approach the point of being dangerous. We go through this from time to time. An event happens, tempers flare, due in part to calls made by “leaders” within the black community.

            For those of us living here who are outside that community, personal safety does become a major issue. We don’t necessarily avoid the conflict, per se….we just don’t want to feed it into more than need be.

            I’ve become increasingly jaded where people such as Jackson and Sharpton are concerned, I’m afraid. I wish that I genuinely believed they have the best interest of the black community at heart, but I don’t. They’re players. Period.
            Inciting racial tension is just a means to an end.

            For myself and members of my own family…we’ve gotten to this point of being extremely cautious when tensions in the local community are high. Very protective of each other and our own little area of community. We couldn’t care less what labels people such as Jackson or Sharpton might place on us.

          • Scope

            and we can all cross our fingers hoping that the racial tensions do not esclate. I am learly though with the play the Zimmerman/Martin case has gotten.

          • westcoastpatriette

            we had a recent similar incident here in my city and instead of inciting hatred and presuming racism, the city came together — including lots of church leaders from both the Hispanic and black churches — and pleaded for peace. I will try to find the link to the article as it is an inspiring example of how these kinds of incidents can be handled in a positive manner.

          • lineholder

            Most of the black people I know are no different from me in a desire for a strong, peaceful community. It’s usually a specific element of the black community that takes the calls made by “leaders” such as Jackson and Sharpton to heart, while the rest of us struggle to try to keep a degree of peace in place and to keep tempers on both sides from getting out of hand.

            It’s difficult to explain, but I think the best analogy would be to consider branches of wood in a forest that have long been drenched with a gasoline. Strike a match, and the entire forest could easily become consumed with flames. That type of scenario has occurred in this area in the past, and people don’t forget it either. It just makes us very cautious.

          • aesthete

            After all, we’re talking about a region whose government (especially law enforcement and court system) were highly prejudiced against blacks, and which both enforced a terribly unequal legal system and looked the other way when crimes were committed against blacks.

            The South has made incredible progress in race relations given this, IMO. I’ve always found it fascinating that the areas which have been most riven by racial tensions recently are large cities outside of the South — like LA (and mostly against non-aggressors, like Koreans and Jews and such). Personally, I don’t think that there are many blacks or whites today who are truly driven by racial politics any more — but there are some in both communities (and in the Hispanic community, for that matter) who will happily commit crimes for whatever reason and find some racial excuse for it.

          • lineholder

            All the same, we have remnants of the type of environment that once existed…memories of old wounds and old grievances that once took place that get passed down from generation to generation. That’s the “gasoline” I referenced above. Sadly enough, it can be lit very quickly without really giving credit for the advancements within the community and what has been gained over time taken into consideration.

            It can be touch-and-go here at times. It’s hard to know how people will respond or how a situation could spin out of control, for lack of a better way of expressing it. For this reason, we go through periods of time where we tread lightly and do everything we can to keep peace intact.

            Fifty+ years of it now. It’s just part of our way of life here.

          • ZootSuit

            Do you think that there are specific elements in the White community that is analogous to the Jesse Jacksons and Al Sharptons in the Black community?

            Not most but a few. Do you even think that’s possible?

          • lineholder

            As far as my own community is concerned, we do have our white “gasoline-drenched branches”, and I won’t deny that we do. They’re perpetuating things of the past into the lives of generations behind them as much as the black community does.

            But peace-keeping can be a fragile thing at times here. It isn’t something we take for granted. A fair number of us, white and black alike, have no desire to return to what once was. We have no desire to lose what has been gained in the past fifty years.

            Your comparison doesn’t entirely hold true, simply because there isn’t a white equivalent of a Jackson or Sharpton on the national level. If there was, what then? I don’t know, Zoot Suit. I honestly don’t.

          • ZootSuit

            Because if so, then I think we are in perfect agreement.

            For some “White conservatives” it is no more an issue of the “rule of law” than for some “Black liberals” (although, perhaps it should be noted that the last I read at least half of all White people think George Zimmerman should be arrested, but that is not the point of my comments) this is not an issue for “racial/social justice.” Many on BOTH sides are using this situation for their own political ends.

            You yourself just wrote:

            As far as my own community is concerned, we do have our white ?gasoline-drenched branches?, and I won?t deny that we do. They?re perpetuating things of the past into the lives of generations behind them as much as the black community does.

            Such people in “your” community are just as bad as their counterparts in “my” community. The problem is, many of the hate-moners in “your”community condemn the hate-mongers in “my” community while they are engaging in the exact same thing.

            Indeed, limeholder, please look at my postings. Is there anywhere where I wrote that the hate-mongers on the Right are worse than the ones on the Left?

            No.

            But what I have said and what I stand behind is that they are being hypocritical for condemning the behavior of others while they themselves are doing the exact same thing.

            And to the specifics of George ZImmerman, I have and still do condemn those who — while condemning those who think that this situation should be investigated further and, yes, think that George Zimmerman may (not “is” but “may”) be guilty of a crime — are themselves rushing to judgement that Zimmerman is innocent and even a hero or somesuch without themselves having all the information.

          • ZootSuit
          • lineholder

            I understand that the potential for hypocrisy disturbs you. And it isn’t that difficult to determine that you are associating this hypocrisy, directly or indirectly, with a certain amount of racial bias. You’ve made that relatively plain.

            Is it possible that such hypocrisy does exist? Yes. Is it necessarily right, just and fair to make a judgement of hypocrisy for any Conservative who might express an opinion that is favorable to Zimmerman prior to the time that all facts have been obtained? No, I don’t think it is.

            Why? Because it is consistent with the nature of Conservatives in general to want to protect and preserve things, such as the rule of law. We’re more inclined to care about such things than other groups along the political spectrum.. Occasionally to the point of being overly-protective, which I do think has to be considered in this case.

            Is it possible that a Conservative doesn’t clearly define that this is an underlying motivation for their comments? Yes, it is. Is it possible that they could fail to articulate that this is part of their line of reasoning where their own viewpoint is concerned? Yes, it is. Just because they don’t spell it out in black and white on the pages of RS doesn’t mean that their desire to protect and preserve the rule of law doesn’t exist.

            So, let’s say that they don’t articulate this. They make a comment that seems totally ludicrous and dripping with hypocrisy on the face of it. That’s how it seems on the surface. Yet, things are not ALWAYS as they seem to be. If I make a judgment on the basis of how things seem to be without taking into consideration what I might know about the source of those comments…

            My original reason for responding was that it seemed you were making a judgment, and quite possibly a broad one at that, which was based on how things seemed without taking the nature of Conservatives in general into context in your evaluation. I did see the possibility that people could be responding for other reasons, such as a desire to protect and preserve the rule of law, and I attempted to communicate the fact that I believed this possibility did exist.

            Then the conversation got off onto some events and specifics within my own local community (and if you aren’t familiar with the history of Greensboro, NC, Zoot Suit, then it might fill in a few blanks about why I’ve said what I have to simply do a quick check on it)

            Do I agree with other Conservatives who might be making early comments that are, for the most part, presumptuous at this stage of the investigation? No, I think they’d be wiser by far to hold their peace, keep their comments to themselves, and let due process within the scope of the law follow it’s course.

      • UpLateAgain

        It’s political because it was played from the start in the NFM as essentially a white guy shooting a black guy. The actual race and political affiliation of Zimmerman was not mentioned until the process of publicly lynching him was well under way. Then he was called a white-Hispanic.

        People in Congress started saying things like, “He hunted him down like a rabid dog”, and a whole bunch of media folks and Democratic pundits named Jeb Bush as having responsibility in the affair for allowing Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” law in the first place.

        When Republicans responded to the Democrats making hair-brained accusations with no evidence, it became a right verses left incident, with the position of the left being their usual “Look. We are being victimized once again” stance. The further racial rift this incident is likely to create is also ideal for the left, who have to have a divided country for Obama to have a chance at reelection.

        We have hundreds of ‘kids’ killed all across this country every month, but few of them present the opportunity for racial divide, victimization, and political influence that this one does. It’s a snowball rolling downhill, and the question of ‘justice’ has in practical terms become a secondary matter for a very large segment of those involved in pursuing this.

        We truly don’t know what happened. We have reports by supposed witnesses that are completely contradictory, and an awful lot of people are basing their ‘logic’ on things we don’t, in fact, know to be true either (i.e. it is commonly assumed that Zimmerman kept following Martin after the dispatcher told him to stop doing so…. but according to the father, Zimmerman DID quit following Martin and it was Martin that came back and became the aggressor.). We just, at this point, don’t know.

        • Scope

          Wasn’t that supposed to be the impetus behind the Fast and Furious program, until they botched it so badly they deserve impeachment over it. I’ve already heard Biden saying that because of the Trayvon Martin case, gun control will again be debated.

          I agree with everything you said also with the black and white divide on a case that probably wasn’t that different from many many that happen across the nation every day.

          Never let a good crisis go to waste is their motto.

          • UpLateAgain

            that the anti-gun lobby will be using this as an argument for their cause. The refutation is also there, however. Violent crime in Florida since they liberalized their conceal carry laws significantly reduced.

            One incident is not going to change Florida voters’ minds. But it will be fodder for the liberal press.

    • Tbone

      owning NBC.

  • runner12

    Thank you for providing insight into how a police investigation works. I have to admit that I was initially very critical of the police and how they handled this case.

    But with the additional facts that are now being reported coupled from what I learned from this diary, I am much less skeptical. Gathering enough evidence to present case that can be prosecuted takes time and diligence. It is not solved in an hour, as seen on t.v.

    If you add in the conflicting reports of what actually happened, it makes for a lot of evidence to work through. The media needs to stop lying and twisting facts and let the investigation move forward. We are a nation of laws, not mob rule.

    If Mr. Zimmerman is guilty, he should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. If he is innocent, then he should be fully exonerated. Either way, those who rushed to judgment on either side will have a lot of apologizing to do.

  • UpLateAgain

    GC, for any arrest warrant issued to be issued based on probable cause. The burden of proof rests with the prosecution. We don’t arrest people because other people want them arrested, with the intent of saying to them, “Prove you didn’t do it”. That is essentially what those demanding his arrest not knowing whether or not there actually is probable cause are doing.

    Probable cause arrests by the police at the initial investigation of an incident in reality meet a lesser ‘probable cause’ standard than that required to have an arrest warrant issued by a judge.

    That’s because if the DA doesn’t agree that PC exists, the arrest is simply ‘undone’. The subject is released mosh-skosh, no harm no fowl, just as soon as the DA says to do so – OR fails to file charges within the indictment time limits. Even if the DA doesn’t charge or orders a release, he can seek a warrant at a later time if he wants-to. Also, there are a number of things that come into play in an ‘exigent circumstance’ arrest (such as flight risk, proper identification, and potential loss of evidence) that the DA generally doesn’t have to concern himself-with, or has a good grasp-of, when later seeking an arrest warrant.

    In practical terms, that means the PC standard that has to be met later is higher than the one the police have to meet at the crime scene (a LOT of PC arrests across the country are not charged because the charging DA feels there actually wasn’t sufficient PC)…….. so a desire by the police to arrest on the night of the incident is not really even an indicator that it was actually a close call…. if subsequent evidence develops that tends to lead AWAY from there having been probable cause.

    But the DA is going to have to go to that judge with his ducks in line to get that warrant….. particularly if the case is really high profile and the judge is reading every word of the warrant request with sufficient concentration to bend spoons.

    What I am certain of, is that if we arrest Zimmerman not because we have evidence of his guilt, but rather to make him prove his innocence, we might as well just throw in the towel and start all over with our criminal justice system, ’cause we have at that point MIGHTILY screwed the pooch.

    • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

      That warrants MUST if there be probable cause. More in a bit as I actually have to some legal work on criminal defendant client whose case does raise the issue of probable cause! More later tonight but first can you reply with the link to the previous comment I made to which you are responding without having pressed Reply to This? I want to see what I said before.

      • demsaresatanic

        You would do well to keep drinking and forget it.

      • UpLateAgain

        to your statement “Clearly there has always been probable cause and remains so.” You can’t POSSIBLY know that. You assume that, based on the news reports, etc.

        In order for there to be PC for an arrest warrant (and I think we’re agreed that there has to be a warrant at this point – the police can no longer go back and arrest on their perceived PC), the prosecutor has to meet Corpus. You said above that it was “within prosecutorial ethics and discretion to decide to proceed given the corpus delecti and to let the jury decide.”

        The Corpus for murder is not apparently even in question, because of the lack of specific intent.

        Here, I believe is the corpus delecti in question:

        782.07?Manslaughter:
        “(1)?The killing of a human being by the act, procurement, or culpable negligence of another, without lawful justification according to the provisions of chapter 776 and in cases in which such killing shall not be excusable homicide or murder, according to the provisions of this chapter, is manslaughter, a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.”

        Another possibly applicable corpus would relate to FL
        782.11?Unnecessary killing to prevent unlawful act:

        “Whoever shall unnecessarily kill another, either while resisting an attempt by such other person to commit any felony, or to do any other unlawful act, or after such attempt shall have failed, shall be deemed guilty of manslaughter, a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.”

        The “Without lawful justification according to the provisions of Chapter 776″ element of the corpus MAY WELL NOT HAVE BEEN MET, in which case it would be extremely hard to justify an arrest warrant:

        776.012 Use of force in defense of person.
        776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.

        “(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” INCLUDES ARRESTING, DETAINING IN CUSTODY, AND CHARGING OR PROSECUTING THE DEFENDANT (Emphasis added).

        (2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency MAY NOT ARREST (emphasis added) the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.”

        If the witness statements, medical records, forensic evidence, etc (which we at this time DO NOT have acess-to) indicate the “without lawful justification according to the provisions of chapter 776″ element of the corpus was not met, corpus fails and no warrant can issue.

        As to the application of 782.11:
        THERE IS A PRESUMPTION IN APPLYING THAT LAW THAT IT WAS MARTIN ATTACKING ZIMMERMAN, not vise-versa, and that Zimmerman used excessive force in defending himself such that resulted in Martin’s death.

        Zimmerman still has a defense under FL
        782.02?Justifiable use of deadly force.
        “The use of deadly force is justifiable when a person is resisting any attempt to murder such person or to commit any felony upon him or her or upon or in any dwelling house in which such person shall be.”

        but at least that IS what would be determined in a court of law by the triers of fact, and is not preclusionary to arrest as a positive defense element actually listed in the criminal statute.

        If there does turn out to be an arrest in this case, I suspect it will be for a violation of 782.11. I suspect the prosecutor has been trying to put together a case for 782.07, but has been unable to meet corpus thus far.

        And, of course, the prosecutor COULD convene a Grand Jury and let them take the heat off her…….. but that would kind of obviate the need for a Special Prosecutor, doesn’t it?

        I don’t envy the Special Prosecutor in this case.

        • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

          Nt

        • UpLateAgain

          Apparently, the Special Prosecutor announced today that she would not be turning the case over to the Grand Jury. Under Florida law, that is her option unless, and only unless, the case is to be charged as capital murder.

          So no murder charge.

          Though I expected manslaughter (if any charge), and NOT murder, this confirms it. This decision is also an indicator that the special prosecutor has garnered sufficient evidence for such a decision, which means her decision to charge or not charge is likely shortly in the offing.

          I’m guessing we’ll find out if Zimmerman is to be arrested at all by the end of this week.

  • westcoastpatriette

    http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/upshot/nbc-fires-producer-over-edited-zimmerman-911-call-201124740.html

    • avagreen

      ….he’s gaaawwwwnnnnn.

      And, a great thanks to NewsBusters for outing this story.

      • avagreen

        as well as more criticism of the man in the WH. For posters on Yahoo to write in this manner, which are usually extremely liberal in their views, is great to read! The LSM has shown itself for the charlatans they are when even libs are catching on and voicing it.

        Encouraging. Very.

        • acat

          They may come to regret the decision.

          Mew

        • westcoastpatriette

          if we can just be patient.

          Criticism of the lack of professionalism in the field of journalism reminds me of the course on the Legal and Ethical aspects of counseling I had to take when in college. In a sense, the same ethic applies to journalists as applies to counselors in the field of psychology just from a different angel.

          For professional counselors, you are trained to keep your personal views and issues out of the way when counseling clients. And if you are unable to do so for reasons that only you may be aware of, it is your ethical responsibility to refer the client to someone else.

          IOW, the needs of the client come first and if you are unable to counsel without projecting your own crap on them then you must recuse and refer.

          In the same way, journalists are supposed to be objective observers and reporters not creators of the story with an intended purpose for how it is shaped. Maybe the left is starting to see the damage they have inflicted on their own profession by compromising and allowing biased — and therefore untruthful — reporting to go on without restraint. It may take the public a while to catch on, but eventually the need for truth in reporting will naturally result in a search for more truthful reports because people are not stupid and want to know the truth.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            be President absent that pesky amendment…smile

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            Under Florida law they must only get an indictment in a First degree Murder case. Otherwise they can proceed via an “information” on lesser charges, but still could pursue life w/o parole.

  • carolina

    They just did an investigative report about Zimmermann unruliness vs police in 2005. Zimm was charged with a felony, but it was bargained down to a misdemeanor. NBC just had to point out that Zimm would never have gotten a concealed carry permit if he had been convicted of the felony.
    The lamestream media is disgusting (again).

  • quill67

    I hope people will read this regardless of their view of the Zimmerman case.

    Good to know some basics about how courts try to protect Due Process.

  • UpLateAgain

    That was my intent.

  • http://pocketchangeproductions.net/ anotherindyfilmguy

    If they want to claim they are professional unbiased news organizations they should be forced to act like they are or put out of business by bankrupting them over and over again.

    And I mean everyone from the elderly couple Spike Lee screwed over by his incompetence being coupled with his bigotry to the parents and other relatives of Zimmerman (and himself) who feel their lives have been endangered and have been harassed through incitement to harass.

    Will the DOJ go after the Black Panthers for posting a bounty or if someone kills or kidnaps Zimmerman and tries to claim the reward?

  • http://xmmlbchat.blogspot.com katesmith

    Here are links re: both NBC TV (network tv) and MSNBC (internet report) maliciously editing out portions of dispatch to make it look like Zimmerman was racist. So far neither has announced a correction or made an apology. 3/31/12, “NBC to do ?internal investigation? on Zimmerman segment,” Washington Post, Eric Wemple. And, 3/30/12, “MSNBC Fixes False Report Which Made Zimmerman Look Racist, Doesn’t Acknowledge Error,” NewsBusters.

  • ZootSuit

    http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-31/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-20120331_1_voice-identification-expert-reasonable-scientific-certainty

    Evidently, two independent voice analyst are saying that the person screaming for help was NOT George Zimmerman.

    Look, we still do not know everything that went on the night Trayvon Martin was killed but this is not the “open and shut” case that so many on this site seem to be want it to be. And quite frankly, the more they keep insisting that it is such an “open and shut” case despite mounting evidence to the contrary, the more ridiculous and ignorant they seem.

    Again, we don’t know what happened. It may still be a justifiable shooting in self-defense. But again, this is by no means an “open and shut” case that George Zimmerman was not in some ways culpable or even criminal. Why do so many on this site want to jump to conclusions?

  • DVPTEXFLA

    If you know what the physical evidence and the forensic evidence shows, then you know if the State has a case in which can be successfully prosecuted.

    At this time the State has had a chance to evaluate written statements and interview witnesses. I would assume they have re-interviewed witnesses to try to clarify possible inconsistencies and gaps in eye witness reports.

    I would also believe they have reviewed the physical evidence, including pictures and videos made by the police, maybe even cell phone pictures etc by people who saw something or came up shortly after the shooting happened. The law enforcement probably have the clothing Mr. Zimmerman and Mr Martin were wearing at the time. Also have or should have reviewed any social media and emails accounts of Mr. Zimmerman and Mr. Martin to see if there are little hand grenades that can blow up in a trial….showing racial patterns or claims of criminal conduct etc. The police and prosecutors know who was where when the shooting occurred, and probably who had been where.

    Keep in mind that when the incident occurred, the facts as reported by police to the Assistant State Attorney (In Florida prosecutors are called State Attorneys), the evaluation by the police and I assume the Assistant State Attorney was that the known facts of the case at that time supported a possible claim of self defense- using deadly force. Supported to such a degree that the Assistant State Attorney did not feel a need to go to the location. It would be interesting to know if the communications between police and the Assistant State Attorney were recorded.

    In a prosecution it is very, very difficult to overcome evidence which shows police officer(s) and even a possible prosecutor first made an evaluation that self defense was viable. The physical evidence would need to be overwhelming to get past those first evaluations.

    If I read the Florida Self Defense provisions correct, if the police make an arrest, and the evidence supports a self defense claim, the person arrested can later recover attorney fees, costs of having his record cleared etc from the state .

    I have no idea yet what the evidence shows and have no opinion yet if Mr. Zimmerman committed a crime. If the evidence was heavily weighted against self defense the State could get a warrant any day. The use of a grand jury gives cover to the State to seek prosecution or to say at this time prosecution is not warranted..

  • DVPTEXFLA

    There are way to many people assuming the what one, two three pieces of the evidence shows supports their need to make a finding. In my opinion with out full access to all of the evidence including the physical and forensic evidence and all of the witnesses statements, interviews, recordings, video and photo evidence, investigation reports, people are jumping to conclusions.

    Only a handful of people have seen the evidence that would be the prosecutors (State and Federal) and police.

  • Jack_Savage

    First – do you believe Trayvon Martin came back and confronted / attacked Zimmerman, or not?

    Second – had Martin not come back and confronted / attacked Zimmerman, assuming you believe he did, would he have been shot?

    I would argue that it is not those on this site who are jumping to conclusions, but those who claim to represent black Americans. And as far as false accusations and jumping to conclusions go, I live in Durham, NC. We’ve had a little experience with that.

  • ZootSuit

    I have no idea yet what the evidence shows and have no opinion yet if Mr. Zimmerman committed a crime. If the evidence was heavily weighted against self defense the State could get a warrant any day. The use of a grand jury gives cover to the State to seek prosecution or to say at this time prosecution is not warranted.

    I don’t know what happened myself and don’t know if George Zimmerman committed a crime or not. My problem is the many people on this site who, without themselves knowing what happened, are certain that Zimmerman is innocent of everything if not also a hero and that it is a waste of time to even investigate this further.

  • UpLateAgain

    It was reported on Judge Janine’s show last night that the police wanted to arrest Zimmerman the night of the incident, but the State Asst. Atty nixed it. Who knows if that’s true. It would not in any way surprise me.

    For any number of reasons considered by the attorney in question (including possibilities I mentioned in the original diary), he may have made a decision to investigate further prior to seeking an arrest.

    That sort of thing is NOT at all uncommon, and I can confirm further that it is not at all uncommon for police supervisors (if not the officer on the scene) to require the police submit rather than arrest… for any number of crimes all up and down the scale.

    Arrest becomes important when there is reason to believe the threat to the community will continue, the suspect is not competently identified, there is a reasonable risk of flight, or there is statutory requirement (many states, for example, have domestic violence laws that demand arrest on the spot). If those issues are not in play, the attorneys responsible for the actual prosecution may not want an arrest until a later time.

    What I think likely in this case, is that had the state’s attorney had a clue on the night in question as to how this thing was going to blow up, he probably would have decided to go ahead and arrest and then have Zimmerman released on his own recognizance or agreed to a light bail.

    Unfortunately…. that ship has sailed.

  • waxmanlaw

    Someone mentions the real reason no arrest has been made. The CIVIL liability the State of Florida will have.

    If they make an arrest on a self defense claim and the person is not convicted it creates an affiramative cause of action against the state.

    Grand Jury or no Grand Jury, Zimmerman could be in for a big pay day if they arrest him.

  • ZootSuit

    But the hypocrisy of many on the Right, here on this site, is that they are comdemning the Left for jumping to conclusions without full evidence when they are doing THE EXACT SAME THING!

  • ZootSuit

    1) I do not know that Trayvon Martin came back and confronted / attacked Zimmerman or not. And for that matter, neither do you.

    That is a claim made by George Zimmerman that must be investigated. It may be that Zimmerman was the aggressor and initiated the confrontation with Martin. If that is the case, Martin himself had a “stand your ground” defense against Zimmerman.

    Moreover, two independent voice analyst who used to different techniques of voice recognition are now putting into question Zimmerman’s claim that he was the one screaming. Or at least, the one heard screaming for help in the background of the 911 tapes. That does put into question the honesty and truthfulness of Zimmerman’s other statements (i.e. if he is ultimately found to have lied about X, the legal assumption is that he is more likely to have lied about Y).

    2) I — unlike the ignorant zealots on both sides — don’t know if Martin initiated the confrontation or not. But even if he did not, we still cannot be certain that Zimmerman would have ultimately shot Martin. Indeed, whether you want to believe it or not, that is actually one of the possible scenarios that we are investigating and which, whether you like it or not, has not been ruled out by the evidence so far.

    After all, no one disputes that Zimmerman followed Martin after being told by the 911 dispatcher not to. The question is — and it is still a question which has not been proved either way — whether Zimmerman broke off his pursuit.That could (not saying it does, but it could) indicate more overly aggressive behavior on the part of Zimmerman, including the shooting of Trayvon Martin when Trayvon Martin was legitimately defending himself against George Zimmerman.

  • drsheilahere

    “The Tragedy of Any #Trayvon. #Obama, Political, not poetic.” http://www.drsheilaherenow.net/index.htm/
    #TCOT #tea party #NBC #CBS

  • acat

    There’s not enough data to conclusively rule either way – so far – so unless there are new sources of conclusive, indisputable data … that’s where we’re heading.

    Mew

  • Jack_Savage

    “…that is actually one of the possible scenarios that we are investigating…”

    But I’ll leave it to others to parse that out.

    Anyway, may I write honestly as a white man? And this doesn’t apply to you, only my view of the situation as a whole.

    I am in full agreement that we need to know the facts. I am in full agreement that we really don’t know exactly what happened. Zimmerman hasn’t claimed he was screaming on the 911 tapes, or any other thing since this came to light. He has been in hiding, afraid of being lynched by a black mob. Ironic, isn’t it?

    And that is really the situation. This whole thing seems not to be about justice, or facts – it seems to be about vengeance and hatred. That is what we are reacting to on this site, knowing that Zimmerman may indeed be guilty, but that he also may be innocent. Those involved in the investigation seem to think so, and they know more than either one of us. No one is standing up for Zimmerman, or standing up for the justice system, or urging calm. Martin’s killer is walking free, that is true, but so is the butcher of Nicole Brown Simpson.

    From where I stand, it truly seems that some are agitating for a race war. Innocent black men may wear hoodies over their faces, I guess, but so do killers, burglars and rapists all across this country. Eve Carson was killed by just such a person – take a look at his picture on Wikipedia as he withdraws money from her account while she is held hostage in the back seat of her car. I’ll bet the murderers who were responsible for the drive by killings at the funeral home not two miles from Martin’s neighborhood in Miami Gardens did as well.

    And yet we have a member of the House of Representatives taunting us by wearing one over his face on the floor of the House, as if it is a perfectly innocent thing. That is despicable and unconscionable, and says more than you can ever know.

    To sum up, when I see blacks coming out against the lynch mob, against the bounty, and against the rush to judgment on Zimmerman – ESPECIALLY Barack Obama, I will be more inclined to understand and possibly even support their desire for an investigation and push for what they see as justice. Until then, I will go with my gut, which tells me the violent black radicals have friends throughout the black community, including all through the White House.

    FWIW.

  • Scope

    “After all, no one disputes that Zimmerman followed Martin after being told by the 911 dispatcher not to.”

    How do you know that Zimmerman continued to follow Martin after the 911 dispatcher said to Zimmerman “we don’t need you to do that.” Do you have proof of that?

    From what I’ve read, it was just after those words from the dispatcher that the incident occured. Wasn’t there a one minute period when there was no communication with anyone? Zimmerman claims he lost sight of Martin while he was still on with 911, and was walking back to his vehicle, and that Martin came up on him from the left rear. Zimmerman picked up his cell phone to call 911 yet again, and that was when he claims Martin asked him if he had a problem, Zimmerman said no, and then Martin said “well you do know.” That’s when the punches started flying.

    I’m just curious as to how you know definitely that Zimmerman continued to pursue Martin after he was told he didn’t need to do that. I doubt anyone knows what happened in those few moments, even the police. The only ones who would know were Zimmerman and Martin.

  • UpLateAgain

    you got to the point where you said, “After all, no one disputed that Zimmerman followed Martin after being told by the 911 dispatcher not to.”

    Zimmerman, through his father, disputes that. . According to Zimmerman’s father, when the dispatcher said to stop following Martin, he did so. He walked to the nearest intersection to confirm his location, then returned to his car and was preparing to get in it and leave when Martin appeared and assaulted him.

    So, in fact, we still don’t know who the aggressor at the time of the confrontation was.

  • lineholder

    This is the first comment pertaining to the Zimmerman case on my part on any of the many diaries that have been written at RS on the subject.

    All in all, rule of law has been under heavy attack since Obama took office. The left seems to take advantage of that every opportunity that they get. Efforts have been made by the media to influence public opinion in such a manner that a bias could be established against Zimmerman prior to completion of a full investigation that might provide an opportunity for all the facts pertaining to innocence or guilt to be gathered.

    Traditionally speaking, rule of law in our nation has supported the position “innocent until proven guilty”. It isn’t surprising in the least that Conservatives would be inclined to be protective of this concept. Indeed, without it, we drift into rule of man being imposed over rule of law, and in a case such as this, we’d be looking at a mob rule principle taking higher priority.

    My only point in making this comment is to interject the possibility that it is for the purpose of supporting rule of law that some posters on RS might be on the defensive or protective in Zimmerman’s behalf.

    By the same token, Zoot Suit, if the evidence proves Zimmerman to be at fault, then you could almost count on it that the same people would support his being sentenced for the crime.

  • ZootSuit

    The issue is, what happened.

    I never said I know what happened that night. In fact, I repeatedly said the opposite: that neither I nor anyone else posting here knows. THAT”S THE POINT!

    My question — and my problem with many here on RedState — is how do you know Zimmerman didn’t continue to follow Martin?

    We don’t know!

    So why are so many here so certain that this is an “open and shut” case and that no charges should be filed against Zimmerman?

  • Tbone

    includes incitement to riot and lynch mob leadership.

  • ZootSuit

    By the same token, Zoot Suit, if the evidence proves Zimmerman to be at fault, then you could almost count on it that the same people would support his being sentenced for the crime.

    Well, in fairness, you do write, “almost.”

    Unfortunately, I think that if the evidence proves that Zimmerman is at fault there will be “some” (note: I did not say “all”) who would then start complaining that Zimmerman is still innocent but the state’s attorney/police/whomever succumbed to political pressure, the evidence was fabricated against him, Zimmerman is a martyr, this is another example of Black people getting preferential treatment, and whatnot. And, of course, somehow it would all be Obama’s fault.

    And, of course, I would not how much they would sound like the Jesse Jacksons and Al Sharptons whom they abhor.

  • ZootSuit

    many on the Right — including many here at RedState — are agitating for a race war themselves.

    We don’t know!

    So why are so many on this site so certain that George Zimmerman is innocent and that no charges should be filed against him.

    To me, the people on the Right who are saying that — making charges and allegations without full evidence — are just as bad as the people on the Left. Both sides are making incendiary arguments that are not based on the full facts (because neither side has the full facts) solely for their own political purposes.

    For the record, my position is, I do not know if George Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvor Martin or not. I sincerely hope he did. However, there are enough question and testimonies to the contrary to at least warrant a more thorough investigation.

  • ZootSuit

    So, in fact, we still don?t know who the aggressor at the time of the confrontation was.

    If that is the case, then why do so many on this site think this is an “open and shut” case and should not be investigated further?

  • duramater

    I, as perhaps many of you, listened to the 911 tapes .I think there were 6 or so of them released.

    At one point on the initial 911 call between Zimmerman and dispatch, the cadence and quality of Zimmerman’s voice as he spoke suggested physical exertion, like walking briskly or even jogging. After the dispatcher said, “We don’t need you to do that”, referencing Zimmerman’s acknowledgement that he was following the subject, Zimmerman’s voice is heard again uttering what sounds, like a somewhat breathy, “OK”.

    As the recorded conversation continued, Mr. Zimmerman’s voice becomes less strained, audible respiratory efforts less forceful with air passing over vocal cords more easily. Though we do not know for certain, it is entirely plausible that it was at this point that Mr. Zimmerman ceased pursuing Mr. Martin and in fact may have been en route back to his vehicle.

    For the record, I think my “voice analysis” is probably as valid in a Florida court as the two so-called “experts” cited in the Sun Sentinel article. Florida has different criteria from most states as to what is considered “expert” witnesses and I’m not sure if voice analysis is even admissible anyway as is borders as pseudoscience in many circles.

  • Jack_Savage

    “…many on the Right ? including many here at RedState ? are agitating for a race war themselves.”

    I guess if you truly believe that, then we are too far apart to continue the conversation. I normally enjoy your viewpoint, but equating the actions of the left and the right when it comes to this situation is beyond what I can understand.

    I would recommend to all that we leave this where it is, and call it an agree to disagree situation. I know that I am.

  • UpLateAgain

    “I don’t know if George Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon Mart IN SELF DEFENSE or not. The fact that George Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon Martin is one of the few things about this case that doesn’t seem to be in dispute.

  • ChattDawg

    Helps keep things in the proper perspective. Will have to refer to it frequently to drown out the excessive emotion on the left. Makes it easy to understand to a non-legal person like me. Thanks for the great info.

  • Scope

    and thought out diary. I have not been able to reco diaries for a while now. Replies to my comments showing up in my profile have been very sporadic lately.

  • lineholder

    His call for marches is premature at this point, to say the least, until all facts pertaining to innocence or guilt are gathered. I would probably include Jesse Jackson in this category as well. The article he wrote, printed at the very liberal Guardian in the UK, is propaganda intended to incite racial tension, not dissipate it.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/mar/30/trayvon-martin-legacy-jesse-jackson

    However, I found it to extremely interesting to note that the local NAACP office in FL has distanced itself from Sharpton in this instance. That was a genuinely wise move on their part.

  • westcoastpatriette

    when having problems reco’ing….hold down shift key when you reco and that opens another window that puts through the reco. Works for me.

  • Scope

    I just did as you suggested, and my name is up there in the reco list. Thank you very much.

  • http://boldcolor.blogspot.com/ Paula

    nt

  • westcoastpatriette

    nadatext

  • UpLateAgain

    You are describing what is at best circumstantial evidence, but it could be important. A Voice Stress Analyzer could be applied to the tapes, and a pattern of his level of stress demonstrated with oscilloscope precision. One moment of reduced stress would not mean much, but if his stress level appeared to have been in steady decline, it would TEND to indicate he was not anticipating confrontation.

    Every street cop is aware of the stress level in his fellow officers’ voices., for example. I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve heard an officer say something completely innocuous over the radio, and I immediately advised dispatch I was starting toward his/her location….. only to have several others also start in that direction. It was based not on what the officer said, but the fact that the officer perceived something that caused his or her voice stress level to increase indicated the officer was anticipating the possibility of some sort of danger…. even if insufficiently to justify requesting a cover unit in his or her mind. Police officers develop control of this over time… and their stress is still perceptible to the trained ear. People who do not routinely deal with adrenaline influx have tremendous difficulty controlling it.

    It’s an unconscious physiological reaction that occurs when adrenaline levels start to increase.

    IF Zimmerman’s voice stress was receding just prior to the physical altercation, it would tend to indicate he did not see it coming. The opposite is also true. If Zimmerman’s voice stress was increasing, it would tend to indicate that in his mind he was anticipating confrontation.

    Another piece to the puzzle emerges……..

  • ZootSuit

    And why did you put “experts” in quotes?

    They are experts in their field and have been used in court cases before.

    And I also must ask, if the two voice analysts said the exact same thing except they stated that the voice crying for help was indeed that of George Zimmerman, would you have questioned their expertise then?

  • duramater

    OTOH, you recognize the potential implications of subtle auditory cues when processed by human neurosensory functions.

    Seasoned street cops know it, family members know it (mothers can discern the hungry cry from the tired and fussy cry from the painful cry of their babies), anyone who has consciously or unconsciously developed an attentive ear responds similarly.

    Your correlation between adrenalin and anticipated physical engagement is particularly astute. Indeed, prior to and following increased or anticipated physical activity, cardiopulmonary function is altered in a cresendo/decresendo pattern. Not only does rate and depth of respiration increase, but the expiratory phase also becomes more forceful and prolonged. This observation and its effects on Mr. Zimmerman’s speech was what my ear was responding to.

    Then again, as you say, at this point, circumstantial.

  • lineholder

    then rule of law isn’t their first consideration in this case.

    That really was all I was trying to point out…that part of the reason some people here at RS have responded as they have may be due more to an underlying desire to protect and preserve rule of law than to other motivations. That would be true to the character of Conservatives in general, even though they might make an off-the-cuff comment instead that really doesn’t reflect those inner concerns.

  • UpLateAgain

    for ‘experts’ to have contrasting opinions on evidence presented in court. In fact, it is easily as much the rule as it is the exception to the rule.

    I think that is what Duramater was getting at when he said he would be as valid an expert as the state has employed. At least that’s what I took from it.

    Without knowing his background, I’m certainly in no position to disagree. This diary, and this discussion has generally been along the lines of “let’s not jump to conclusions” in evaluating what happened (which clear a whole bunch of people on both sides of the issue HAVE)….. and let the evidence (rather than conjecture) determine where this thing is going to break out….. which is what I have taken from your posts as well.

    The great thing about dialogue is the more of it we have, the clearer meaning s become and the less we tend to read unsaid things into it.

  • uselogic

    “Experts” PAID by the Orlando Slantinel, which has a vested economic interest in keeping this incident on it’s front page. In addition the same paper has always come out HEAVILY against the Stand Your Ground law and is HEAVILY for highly restricted gun control.

    I work in Sanford and the Sentinel is known to be fast and loose with the facts. Has been for 30+ years but the have gone heavily towards the progressive side with the last two editors.

  • UpLateAgain

    If Zimmerman is arrested as the result of a warrant issuing either by Grand Jury indictment or by competent judicial authority (i.e., a judge that has jurisdiction), no civil action against the state is possible. The state, and prosecuting authority are indemnified by law as long as they act within the scope of the law.

    If that was not the case, every scumbag and his brother that get himself arrested in this country would sue if for no other reason to try to get something in a nuisance suit.

    If they arrested Zimmerman without a ‘due process of law’ warrant at this point, they would be outside the scope of the law and therefore subject to civil action. As long as they follow the rules, however, that’s not going to happen.

  • duramater

    I shall provide a more comprehensive response to your questions when I have more time, perhaps tonight.

    In the interim, 4 words:
    Frye standard, Daubert rules

    I seriously doubt the so called experts or their technique(s) meet either of these two guidelines for determining relevance or reliability for admissibility into court. Hence my comment above, “I think my ?voice analysis? is probably as valid in a Florida court as the two so-called ?experts? cited in the Sun Sentinel article.”

    Moreover, their principles and techniques have not met rigorous standards of the scientific method. I make this assertion as a scientist, by training and in daily practise.

  • gekster

    just what are you trying to say.

  • keonemichaels

    It is clearly apparent that the facts don’t support Zimmerman’s recounting. As the phone records and times are revealed the timeline itself will persuade authorities that they have to act despite their racial bias.

    IMO this was truly a crime of racial hatred. A homicide. It has been covered up and pushed aside by a police department and DA habituated to similar coverups and crimes in the past.

    Enough. Your discussion serve less to elucidate rather to obscure and provide smoke and mirrors to those who don’t understand that this was just another hate crime in Florida.

  • UpLateAgain

    And any opposition to Obama is, no doubt, pure racism. The black police captain (acting chief) is CLEARLY demonstrating his racial bias against blacks, and we’re just not seeing it!

    In fact, it’s totally impossible for any opposition to a position held by any black, or any adverse circumstance in which a black might find himself to not be a result of anything other than hatred.

    We know Zimmerman can’t possibly be telling the truth as he knows it… because he’s not black.. right?

    Thank God we have people such as yourself to clarify the reality of the world for us!

  • duramater

    Came across this LEO facebook page today
    http://www.facebook.com/BigCityCops/posts/161571763966042

    which links to an online petition to restore Chief Bill Lee to his position with the Sanford, FL PD.

    https://www.change.org/petitions/support-for-sanford-police-chief-billy-lee-and-sanford-police-department

    I don’t “do” Facebook and am not much into petitions but I signed this with the admonition, “Neither elected commissioners nor
    the carpet bagging mobs who have never donned a badge and duty belt are qualified to second guess this COP.
    Restore Chief Lee and social order to your town.”

    The media made it sound as though the “No Confidence vote” that pressured him to step down was from the rank & file but was actually a 3/2 vote by City Commissioners. Anyone familiar with small town/ big ego politicians and their all too often contemptible treatment of their LEOs understands the dynamics here.

    Maybe you or someone you know would be interested in joining this drive.

  • Scope

    I heard a short piece on Fox this morning that Sanford is getting ready for riots, as there will likely be a decision soon whether Zimmerman will be charged or not. Apparently they are already looking to neighboring communities for help if riots occur. Weasel Zippers is already questioning if the special prosecutor will charge Zimmerman just to quiet the “mob.” O’Reilly has already weighed in with saying almost the same thing. Zimmerman must be made the sacrificial lamb to please the race baiting mob. By the leftist media agenda, NBC, ABC and CNN have already held his hearing in the public airwaves, and have determined that he is guilty. No jury of his peers, no belief in innocent until determined by a jury of your peers to make that decision, after the evidence has been presented.

    Unless there is some really big smoking gun evidence presented, and the special prosecutor dang well explain her position in clear detail describing every piece of evidence used to make her decision, we will be always and forever be at the mercy of the mob. If the special prosecutor decides to put Zimmerman on trial, I hope she has something she knows can prove Zimmerman’s guilt. If Zimmerman goes to trial on mob rule evidence he will likely be exonerated by a jury of his peers. There was much more evidence to convict Casey Anthony of having had a hand in her daughters death, but the prosecutors didn’t have the smoking gun. From everything I’ve read, the evidence presented so far against Zimmerman is more shady and lacking than the Anthony case. If Zimmerman is charged on shady evidence, he needs to own those that have already convicted him by the media, the special prosecutor, and the race baiters. If Zimmerman is charged, I hope and pray that there is strong provable evidence that he is in fact guilty of a crime.

  • westcoastpatriette

    maybe they are not going to arrest Zimmerman. I heard his father relate what happened that night and it filled in questions that I had and confirmed why there has been no arrest. Zimmerman was not ignoring the dispatcher who had said they did not need for him to keep following Martin. Zimmerman had lost sight of Martin but was walking behind the condos to locate where he was so he could give the police a street name. He was then returning to his vehicle when Martin approached him, asked if he had a problem and when Zimmerman said no, Martin replied “Well, you do now,” and he punched Zimmerman in the nose and continued to beat him while he was on the ground. Only hysterical, unreasonable people would see that as anything but self-defense. What was Zimmernam supposed to do? Allow Martin to beat him to death?

    If riots break out, I hope the police repel it with such force that it will be snuffed out quick. It would be a huge mistake to allow intimidation from the race baiters to cause the DA to arrest just to appease them. My prayers go out to the police and the community.

  • jakeofalltrades

    They’ve even sent in NG units for drug raids in Orlando. Believe me when I tell you, Florida has no shortage of resources to deal with it.

  • Scope

    that is may be possible that the prosecutor doesn’t have enough evidence to arrest Zimmerman. It seems to me that a prosecutor will not move forward to an arrest if the evidence doesn’t back up the arrest. If Zimmerman is in fact arrested and must go to trial, there better be some really convincing evidence that he is in fact guilty of a crime. I would think that with the evidence we’ve heard so far that there is more than enough doubt introduced. All a defense attorney has to do with Zimmerman is to introduce the doubt, and the media’s rush to judgement in order to clear Zimmerman, if if he is in fact guilty of anything.

    The saddest part of this whole debacle is that even if Zimmerman is exonerated, and it’s determined that he was in fact acting in self defense, he will never be allowed to live a normal life in this country. With the Black Panther bounty on his head, they will never back away from the law’s position. He will never have a normal life again, as he will always be looking over his shoulder for those that will kill him in cold blood in a heart beat.

  • jakeofalltrades

    The preponderance of the evidence is that Trayvon’s killing was justified by self defense. That’s the opposite of probable cause… indeed his arrest may be unconstitutional if it fails the reasonableness test.

  • Scope

    As I said, the prosecutor better have a very well documented case against Zimmerman, with evidence that will overtake what we have already seen, in order to arrest Zimmerman. I am getting the whiffs of mob rule unfortunately. I don’t know what happened that night, not any more than the leftist media knows what happened that night. This is all going to come down to who is more believable. It’s Zimmerman’s word against those who have already convicted him of a crime, in addition to the various claimed witnesses, the 911 tapes, the crime scene, forensic evidence, and the evidence of injuries to Zimmerman that have been documented.

    This has been a total miscarriage of justice, and I fear that if the mob gets their way, we are in really serious trouble in this country, and the rule of law is gone out the window. Like the Obama admin. recognizes the rule of law to begin with. Once Holder’s DOJ has gotten involved, we are all in deep dodo.

  • duramater

    it’s not just unconstitutional, it is written into that “terrible, evil” portion of FL Statutes covering stand your ground. The noncriminal who acts in self defense is protected from criminal AND civil litigation. The state (tax payers) will pay court cost, atty fees and certain restitution should he be charged then found guilty. I think the language is in FS 776.031 or .032.

    Anyway, that is why the state atty nixed his arrest immediately after the incident.

    I’m with the rest of you. Prayers for decisions based on justice and wisdom, not politics or fear. Prayers for families involved. Prayers for our LEOs who will surely have to deal with the ugly that’s likely a comin’.

  • duramater

    meant to write…
    The state (tax payers) will pay court cost, atty fees and certain restitution should he be charged then found NOT guilty.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    Good one though