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The Republican Pro-Life Plank, a Philosophical Stance or a Political Stance? Or Both?

We all know it is both, but I ask this question this way because I want to point out a key difference between conservative constitutional philosophy (if you are a true conservative) and moral philosophy (if you are a deep person of faith)…for while you can be both, they are sometimes a little different and you have to put on a different hat to appreciate this difference.

I’ll rush to the bottom line questions now: Can pro-choice advocates be genuine conservatives? (I vote yes.) And if so, have we unfairly shunned them, just as we say they are shunning us? (Maybe.) And is there common constitutional ground on which we can all shake hands, and get back to the task of defeating the Left? (I believe so.)

We’ll see how this goes.

First I want to point out how Roe v Wade threw a monkey wrench into the compatibility of those two notions, the entire constitutional scheme, and also the Republican Party, all in one throw. It’s why we’re in this pickle. The Left designed it, and I think it’s high we quit dancing to their tune.

On the one hand we have a Republican Party that has carried an anti-abortion plank at least since Ronald Reagan took office. On the other hand, since Reagan left office, we’ve seen a schism break out within the party as to whether that plank should be removed, or watered down, ostensibly to make the GOP tent bigger.

Of course, we know there’s more to it that just a bigger tent. The rise of an “Right-to-Life Amendment movement” was perceived by the old guard up-east, urban, country club Republicans (and their children, like Lincoln Chafee) as a bad thing from their particular perch inside the Party; a kind of populism by an upstart group of newly enfranchised southern (read “rural, Christian”) Republicans who had come on board under the sponsorship of the old Moral Majority forged by Rev Falwell and Tim La Haye…most of whom had age-old Democratic Party roots, by the way. You know, Jim Crow. And Bible thumping.

(Please note that everything I’m saying will be about respective political viewpoints, so keep your moral notions in your holster. That’s partly the problem here, fighting political notions with moral positions, and moral positions with political ones.) Suffice it to say that regional and (more often now) class differences separated these two groups from the beginning, on cultural, religious and economic grounds. That’s where it stands today, not just up-east, but across the country; urban vs rural, as I’ve noted here in Virginia. These two factions never did really like one another very much, probably going back to 1856 at least…but being Republicans, they are not amenable to the normal kinds of social and political bribery that have brought so many disparate sectors of the Democrat Party together so they could sit down and pretend to make nice with one another. (Even in disunity we’re more honest then the Democrats.)

Since we’re seeing that Democrat coalition come unraveled now, maybe this is a perfect time for those urbane, pro-choice Republicans and down-home, right-to-lifers to come together and mend a fence that never should have been broken down in the first place…by laying the very intimate politics of class and moral philosophy of life over to one side…and gather around one simple, often ignored (though mentioned here often on RedState) conservative constitutional principle, which had this sorted out pretty well until 1973.

I’m speaking of the 10th Amendment, which, besides staking out territory that belongs exclusively to the state and the people, establishes a cultural “live and let live” boundary, so that the people of Georgia will live, and let the people of New Jersey live likewise. This is indeed how the Founders saw it. And in the context of this on-going argument about abortion, that also included, prior to Roe, the right to live and let die, for every state had the right to decide when and how it was legal to take a life.

As always, it should be the Constitution that separates the wheat from the chaff, for it is here that one gets to prove that 1) he/she is pro-choice (versus pro-abortion) or 2) genuinely a constitutional conservative (versus a one-issue conservative), by agreeing to the notion that people of different states in fact do (should) have the right to decide what’s best for themselves; not the federal government, not some federal judge, and not some priest or preacher, nor the teachings of their respective churches, and certainly not neighboring states.

In order to do this, first we have to go back to Roe and shout out the true constitutional sin of that decision. Pardon me, that sin had nothing to do with killing little babies, for some states already allowed abortion, at least on certain grounds, including two southern states, North Carolina and Mississippi.

What Roe did was override the power of the states to decide this. More specifically, it denied the people of the individual states, as laid out in the 10th Amendment, the power to either 1) prohibit abortion, 2) allow it in some cases (rape, incest) or 3) allow it across the board, as a matter of choice, as New York did. The Court decided we all have to go by the New York rule. Don’t like it? To hellwitcha.

The ancillary, but equally grievous sin of the Court was that it fractured the constitutionally-designed system of balance and checks by having the highest court in the land legislate from the bench, thereby denying any other branch of government the power to overturn it. When the Court acts unconstitutionally, who do you go to to seek relief?

On these counts, all Republicans should be able to agree. This is my cut-off point. You can’t agree with this, then you ain’t a conservative, and shouldn’t be a Republican. On all counts, Roe was a very, very bad decision, which should be reversed. And it made very bad law, an outgrowth of which being that it caused the Republican Party to place in its national platform an issue that should always have been a matter for the states to decide. In other words, there should never have been a national Republican anti-abortion plank. The Devil made them do it. Since 1973, there should have been a Republican anti-Roe plank instead. (I even know Liberals who agree with this.)

I won’t spend much time splitting hairs here between pro-choice (as many urban Republicans and Libertarians claim to be) and pro-abortion, as the Margaret Sanger wing of the Democrat Party has always been. But it’s important, in fact, paramount, to acknowledge those differences, and the need to highlight them, in a future political context. (Below.)

Nor will I spend any time revisiting what the most ardent pro-lifers have to say about the sanctity of life, except that I’m with you. That is my moral philosophical stand, as well. But you (we) are using moral arguments against a political one, and I wonder if you fully understand this? It’s a struggle I’ve been having with friends for over 20 years.

My own conservative constitutional stance, stated here, is that is really shouldn’t be the business of any Christian moralist in Birmingham what a twenty year old girl in Pawtucket is doing about her pregnancy…except maybe to pray for her. I am old enough to know that no one considered it their business back in 1970. Nor in 1960, nor 1950. I also know that the back-alley coat hanger abortions, of Teddy Kennedy-Robert Bork fame, were by and large urban legends. Old World Catholic women had known since the 11th Century who to go to for herbs in order to buy at least a whole year of a flat belly before her husband, Robert the Wagoner, would start wanting her to spit out babies again…in keeping with Church teachings of the day. Small town docs all over the south and midwest were “inducing” early term “miscarriages” since the late 1800s, probably earlier, often for free, and often for the poorest of the poor “because they just couldn’t afford that extra mouth to feed.” Who they answered to was God, and no one else, for after all, according to church teachings, it was His law being broken. What those women couldn’t do then was march into a clinic in Jackson, Tennessee and announce “I want an abortion”. Instead, they had to get on a bus bound for White Plains, New York. Constitutionally, that works for me. We all lived in a kind of “don’t ask, don’t tell” world then. And it was probably better then than today; far fewer babies dying, far fewer wrecked, regretful mothers, carrying that guilt to their graves (they almost all do, you know), and far fewer souls burning in whatever fire of hell you’d care to impose…but all of them who were there being there by choice instead of the misguided belief that they’d nothing wrong.

Since 1988 this schism within the Republican Party has descended into an abyss of both ignorance and quite frankly, the worst kind of political dishonesty…which always happens when self-serving demagogues step into the limelight, to lead their children into the light. Only who am I speaking of here? Jerry Falwell or David Brooks? (Actually, I admired Rev Falwell for having stepped back out of the political arena after having stepped in it. He found out that when you hitch your wagon to two horses, one named Morality and the other Politics, the only place that wagon can’t go is straight. So he cut the one horse loose. Good for him. As for Brooks, I can think of nothing to admire about him, but I don’t like snobs and s**theads, so it could just be me.)

Never forget the 30-year-rule and Law of Generations. Today there are more pro-life Christians alive who have never known a world without abortion, than not, never knowing that at one time their daddies and mamas could give a bigger hoot in hell what anyone was doing with their body in Hartford, Connecticut. Likewise, once upon a time not one in ten middle class people in Buffalo knew what the Southern Baptist Church was all about, and could care less. Somehow, I think that is what the Founders had in mind about the 10th Amendment and these personal medical and moral decisions. Let God and the individual states sort it out.

Like I said, I don’t like snobs, even as I think I’m smart enough to qualify as one, at least on certain things, such as the best tater cakes in Lexington, South Carolina. And I don’t like blueberries, as in Susan and Olympia. But their disqualifying constitutional sin is not being Pro-choice, but rather their approval of high taxes, big government, and a willingness to look the other way on virtually every constitutional issue that comes their way…due to a general amiability toward any kind of flattery than could cause milk to curd anywhere else. At least Mary Landrieu dealt in coin of the realm. Maybe being a high-priced whore really is better than  a cross-town consort.

On the abortion issue, morally, I line up squarely behind the Church’s teaching. But I have to note, just as with that 11th Century mother who was expected to bear a dozen kids before she finally died at 33, the people have always had personal escape clauses built into God’s laws, which were, shall we say, extra-legal. I’ve known God-fearing mothers who were dead set against it until their 15-year old turned up pregnant from a motor-cyclist who spent the summer at the next farm over. And in states that had miscegenation statutes until the 1960s, almost all southern states acknowledged a de facto right to abortion for certain reasons, whether it was on the books or not.  And what county attorney would say they were wrong? What jury would convict them? And who would vote for him next time?

But did you notice what I’ve said, “the Church’s teachings”? Justice Douglas tried to make a secular-based reason for “choice” since he also knew that the Constitution probably, and the Left, most assuredly, would never abide a religiously-based one. He failed, in my view, for he tried to create an immutable right without acknowledging an immutable source. No matter, the Left dropped any real belief in that opinion years ago, and the only time they bring it out is to slam down a God-based counterclaim. But his arguments did lead God-fearing Christians and god-less Pro-choicers (I use the adjective in the strictest sense) off into a world of standing against one another constitutionally where there simply is no basis for it.

In this I see an opportunity. A political, as well as moral, one.

The Coming-Together Plan.

I’ll bet that today there are more Libertarians and Republican Pro-choicers than there are Democrats claiming to be pro-choice (most of whom are actually pro-abortion, and most often, about someone elses womb)…and therein lies a plan, if you ask me. Hear me out.

Beneath the veneer of political justifications for pro-choice offered up to blue state GOP’ers and Libertarians, there is a layer of thin (in my view) humanistic philosophy, i.e, a philosophy based a world without God and without absolutes. “Society can move along quite well without religion, thank you.” (Actually it can’t, but that’s a debate for another time. Right now, I’m trying to convince pro-lifers to see y’all in a better light.) But understand, Pro-lifers or secularists, what I call Don’t-Give-a-damns are citizens, too, even when they were toothless, unhygienic, illiterate layabouts as they most often were 80 years ago. The Constitution makes no distinction between their rights and my own, so my idea of what is and is not murder does not carry any additional weight in the Constitution’s eyes. (You must understand this principle.) As John Adams said, the Constitution was written for a moral and religious people. It inferred that those kinds of people will always far outnumber the combined forces of Don’t Give a Damns and anti-religionists.

Well, that is no longer the case.

That’s where we are now, and to get back to the moral status quo of the constitutional vision, we have to do it by persuasion, within the constitutional framework; i.e the 10th Amendment. Let each state become a test tube, to showcase to the others what their way has to offer. Well, actually, that’s been going on for years, and the moral element espoused by the pro-Life is part of an equation that has proved itself as having the greater survivability and growth potential, in both the constitutional sense and economic sense, and not just in the US, but worldwide. Blue State political regimes in general have failed. Urban politics have failed. Europe has failed. The more community-based, congenial politics of live and let live have succeeded and prospered…so much so that a sizable portion of Connecticut now lives in Virginia. Lebensraum? Gentility? Good manners? Or just the fact that they don’t have some a-hole from Connecticut living next door? Free markets, low taxes, smaller and less intrusive government helps.

Those are the people those Republicans should be targeting, by drawing distinctions between the philosophical tenets of choice (such as they are) versus the much darker tenets of murder with malice aforethought, as the Sangerites truly preach.

As I see it, the Sangerites of the Democrat Party get to bring out those other tenets, the right to choose, when it suits them, without ever having to prove to their own that they really mean it. This is in part because they are always locked in combat with an enemy every one they know has been acculturated to dislike and fear; the Bible-thumbing, slack-jawed knuckle-draggers from Biloxi. Or simple-minded Christians. (They avoid genuine philosophical arguments on this issue like the plague, for they always lead to a place where they have to admit things they really don’t want to admit, even to themselves.)

Many Libertarians and blue state GOP members agree with the Sangerites, but mainly because they don’t like that bunch of Christians either…only more on cultural grounds than anything remotely philosophical.

Political solution:

Well what if the pro-choice GOP turned on the Democrats and said, “Well, we believe in the right to choose, but from your actions (versus your words) we believe you don’t.”? To do this, all they have to do is turn and shake hands with the right-to-lifers over the 10th Amendment notion that it’s the states’ right to decide this issue, and no one else’s, and that they are entitled to their own turf, and on that one issue we are united.

If we could do that, we can turn the abortion tables on the Democrats. Imagine how their political world would turn upside down…by throwing a third plank into the debate…pro-life, pro-choice, and pro-abortion…each with their vocal adherents?

But in the real political world only the pro-choicers can stake this ground out.

The Sangerites have peddled death for years pretending they were only defending a sacred turf, “choice”, which Douglas laid out. But now that the baby boomers who most supported Roe in 1973 are grandparents, that view is on a downward slide. The persuasion factor is favoring pro-Life more and more every year.

By turning “pro-choice” back on the Sangerites millions of pro-choicers will have to make decision by drawing distinctions they’d never had to draw. “Just why do I believe this?” A lot will drop off. A lot will come over, as many, after 30 are having questions already. The idea is to destroy the culture of death by cutting off its head first, the Sangerites.

Some years ago, one of those sons of the Confederacy came to see me, going on about the 10th Amendment. I casually mentioned that the biggest victims of the government these days areblack folks, so, in my opinion, they should be his biggest ally in defeating the common enemy of Big Government. He looked at me curiously and walked away. Too bad. When you force a fellow to a crossroads he has to decide, does he love the Constitution or hate black folks more? The same goes for pro-choicers. By extending the handshake of the 10th, they will define themselves: whether they love the Constitution, or hate Christians more. By there act ye shall know them.

All that is required within the GOP is a return to the constitutionally correct position from the beginning that Roe v Wade should be overturned, and the power returned to the states under the 10th Amendment, then…

…shake hands.

And come out fighting.

COMMENTS

  • Leopard1996

    Let’s turn the law back to what it was, where states decide, and if I don’t like state A’s policy on the subject, I move to state B.

    • JSobieski

      Anything beyond repeal of Roe is not foreseeable in my lifetime. Reducing the federal budget by 50% is more lilkely than anything beyond a repeal of Roe.

      I am dedicated pro-lifer, but I don’t know of many serious people who would diss a candidate because they wouldn’t support a constitutional amendment at the federal level banning abortion.

      • Leopard1996

        Actually, I beleive that Abortion would die the death of 1000 cuts when there starts to be a correlation (remember old statistic terms of coorelation does not equal causation) between those states that have abortion vs. states that don’t that start to become unlivable due to liberal policies overall, that at some point the liberals will be booted out, and conservatives come in, and from that point those liberal policies, including abortion start to go bye bye.

        I am not as dedicated a pro-lifer as many here, but I would not shed a tear if my state or every state on their own accord illegalized the process.

        • http://thesandsinstitute.org Vassar Bushmills

          VB

          • janis

            I got my head handed to me for saying pretty much what Leopard said here, that those states which wanted abortion could maintain its legality within their borders. For that, I got called “pro-abortion.” I wasn’t anything of the kind, just being practical. As with you, what counts is what will get us closer to our goal.

            And for Leopard– you are so on the money with your comment. Those states which uphold abortion as a right will probably also be those same states that will remain true deep blue and therefore the ones which will be the most dysfunctional over time. Just as with California today, those areas most determined to behave in ways that are not conducive to moral behavior will also be the ones that will fail economically, too. And then they will be a problem for the rest of us to either carry on our backs or take over and rehabilitate. Either way, once we have to be responsible for them, we get to set the rules.

            Or just seal our borders with them and let them dry up and blow away.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    The Republican party needs to oppose abortion in all 50 states should we finally get Roe repealed.

    • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

      Even after Roe, there will still be matters of federal funding. We must hold firm on that.

      About the only post-Roe change will be that we need to avoid making unconstitutional nationwide bans on abortion.

    • JSobieski

      But this is also counting unicorns and chasing dragons in terms of viable next steps.

      Lets just get Roe repealed and argue after that. Arguing about federal laws banning abortion in 2010 is like focusing on the presidential election of 2012—both are premature

      • Doc Holliday

        we have to do something to trip ourselves :)

    • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

      I often suggest that conservatives read Reagan’s Evil Empire speech monthly because of its social conservative content when they pretend that Reagan was some kind of moderate, and that they look at Reagan and Newt’s Congress and W’s (all strong pro-lifers) results at the ballot box, all of which represent the hey day of conservative success vs the losing years and decades when the pro-choice crowd held sway.

      • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

        Fred Thompson has convinced me that the repeal of Roe and state laws is the better route, but the GOP must remain the pro-life party, no matter what.

      • Doc Holliday

        - He would not have pushed for an internet gambling ban for political purposes that backfired

        - He would not likely have got involved in Schiavo

        -He would not have done NCLB and added to bureacracy

        I could give a lot more examples. I am just saying these labels are wearing thin. Gerald Ford was a “federalist” so does that make him the same was Washington?

        Reagan was great because he was great. Labeling Reagan will not uncover his greatness. BTW, I am responding to your title not disagreeing with your position GC.

        • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

          it is clear from Reagan’s uncompromising stance on the baby doe case that he would have been for the schiavo law.

          And the people that “hosed” us in 2006-8 were moderates, not so-cons, but we have argued that ad nauseum.

          What is not arguable is the content of the evil empire speech.

          read it

          • pilgrim

            For example, we lost a House seat in Mi because moderate GOP Joe Schwartz campaigned for the Democrat instead of Tim Wahlburg.

          • Doc Holliday

            who decided socon meant big government con. And I don’t think the Evil Empire speech negates the Consitutional limits on federal power. And I will listen to the Evil Empire speech for you, if you will listen to Reagan’s “A Time to Choose” speech. BTW, at 2:21 in the speech he supports Evolution, not that SOCON to me. I don’t agree with him on that, not sure why he said that, but it also shows anyone can find what they want in a large number of speeches.

            This speech is still one of the greatest descriptions of conservatism.

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yt1fYSAChxs

          • pilgrim

            If it had been Speaker Pence and Majority Leader Sessions things would have been a lot different than they turned out.

          • Doc Holliday

            But Frist was a self described Social Conservative. But he, like many, got power hungry and it felled him.

          • Doc Holliday

            when I called his Evil Empire speech and raised A Time to Choose :)

          • SteveLA

            Mike

            Much as you want to project your “Ronnie Reagan culture warrior” spin on Reagan you are missing the mark from a historical view. If you read his collected diaries which came out about a year ago, Reagan was much more focused on international relations, the economy and other issues. Throw in the early 80′s were not a time where the culture wars had reached the fever pitch of the late 90′s, I don’t see how you can assert that Reagan would have weighed in on this matter. Reagan was busy fighting Communism, helping Poland, helping El Salvador, fixing the economy and damage done by the Peanut Man, a pretty full agenda.

            There’s also the Federalist argument of states rights, where the Schiavo had been all over Florida courts and Federal intervention in the matter stepped pretty badly on Federalist and 10th Amendment principles. I’m not at all convinced that Reagan would have an active participant a Schaivo type affair as President Bush was based on Federalist principles, however I will agree with you that if legislation reached Reagan’s desk he would have signed it.

          • Doc Holliday
          • SteveLA

            Doc,

            I enjoyed the book, but you do have to have a sense of what was going on in the world to appreciate what Reagan wrote. I found myself going and doing searches on line to understand the why behind many of the entries in terms of the what was going on with the world back then.

            My read; Reagan was very engaged in world diplomacy as were many from his generation and the was concerned with countering the real evil empire which was the Soviet Union. Back then the real evil in the world wasn’t the ACLU, comedians making cracks about Sarah Palin or any of the culture war topics that consume so many folks today.

            When people talk about the next Reagan, well they should hope that the sort of world issues that Reagan confronted back in the day on a daily basis will never be seen again, sadly we probably will see those times and those sorts of world issues again sooner rather than later.

          • Doc Holliday

            is to protect the nation and be our face to the rest of the world. We have around 537 legislators who are supposed to focus on screwing up domestically. We only have one President and he should be focused on foreign policy and national defense,

            This was one reason I was not that into Bush in 2000 and favored McCain. But Bush the president found out that Bush the candidate was wrong about not focusing on foreign affairs.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • JadedByPolitics

    against the GHOULS by getting abortion back to the States because it isn’t going away but if WE can get it down to say 15 States or less and work at the SHAME portion that was also taken away by the Supreme Courts found “right” then WE will finally have less abortions. I truly believe this is the only way forward, though I have to say for me personally I want my Republican Presidential Candidate to be a PRO-LIFE Candidate!

  • tcgeol

    Using the 10th Amendment and federalism is essential and your point is excellent. There should be a great common ground between pro-lifers and libertarians on this issue that can be used advantageously. However, while I have libertarian leanings myself, I think that a lot of libertarians and country club types won’t work with us just because a lot don’t like pro-lifers – we cramp their style. I’m sure that that particular stereotype isn’t true of a lot of them, but there seem to be a lot of self-styled libertarians that come around that hate those “theocrats” more than they hate those who would truly remove freedom. I’m not at all against your position, I just wonder how effective it would be.

    The other point about the Republican plank is a separate issue from federalism, I believe. We should not have a platform that calls for a national ban on abortion – that would be a violation of our federalist basis. However, there would be no violation of federalism by calling for state to pass abortion laws as long as Roe and Casey were overturned and abortion was returned to the states.

    • http://thesandsinstitute.org Vassar Bushmills

      I think you get my drift. This essay s more or less directed at pro-life conservatives, as a way to encourage a reaching out and a dialogue.

      The far more difficult job would be to reach out to Pro-choice’ers, including libertarians. The reason it is difficulty, just as you stated, is that they have already abandoned one of the major pillars of the Constitution; religion. In fact, many (most?) will say it is the one thing they hate (yes, hate) about social conservatives.

      So who’s standing on whose shoulders? Just like the atheists who owe virtually every virtue to religious forbears, they profess a love for a document and ideal that literally oozes religiosity and God-based morality.

      Until someone comes along that can show me a separate trail of philosophy to get to their belief systems, sans God (von Hayek comes to mind) I feel compelled to hang them by their own boot straps.

      The pro-lifers have a knee jerk reaction to a notion coming from people they know absolutely nothign about. (See my article on the rise of the don’t give a damns.) Christians themselves take most of the blame for allowing this type to person to grow from the sewers to the suburbs, by immediately wheeling so that Satan would be behind them. I admit I do not understand the knee-jerk antipathy toward Christians, but do know it has to arise from having never been around them. They seem to think that when a Christian prays he’s making fun of them because they know how, or that they are in a club in which he isn’t invited. A little jealousy and fear also permeate this knee-jerk dislike,

      The pro-life “philosophy” is as thin as a pool of warm piss, but it is bolstered by a pro-death philosophy of the Sangerites. It is a vanity.
      I want to be able to drive a wedge between pro-life and pro-murder. Ther Christians have to help make that happen.

      • tcgeol

        I’ll be thrilled to work with anyone who supports overturning Roe and Casey and bringing abortion back to the states, but both sides have to be willing to work together. How do we arrange that if one side can’t stand the other (and that goes for both sides at times)?

        Why do you say that the pro-life philosophy is thin?

  • http://stixblog.com Black River Wolf

    I am no pro-choice person, I think it is a dispicable act, but I do not castigate someone for making the decision. That is for God to decide. And I will never know how someone would feel with that kind of decision, since I will never be able to get pregnant.

    I think all life is precious and should be allowed to live.

    Also there are many non religious arguments against abortion also. This is not just a moral thing. When does life begin???? Is it at conception, which scientifically is true if you take biology 101, or when the baby is born.

    It has always and should always be a state’s right issue. And we should use the Bully Pulpit to change people’s minds, not deride them , using tact and reason to change people’s minds

  • Menlo

    If states cannot discriminate on other basis (such as skin color), why should they on being unborn? It is not right to leave it to states any more than slavery or segregation.

    At the very least, there ought to be a call for state law enforcement to defy judicial orders based not on law or interpretation of law but on lies.

  • penguin2

    be looked at. I have known for some time that our pro-life goal of stopping abortion strictly on moral grounds, did not seem to hold sway as people got into all the legal issues. There have been others here who often have commented about the legal aspects to get the repeal, and that we can only find success by approaching it from the legal vs moral. For those of us who have been viewing it strictly from a moral standpoint, it has been almost intolerable to conceive that it is anything other than a moral issue.

    I see where you are coming from and it makes sense to focus on the repeal of bad, horrendous law. Return it to the states, let the states decide. Then people like myself can continue to educate and promote the concept of pro-life.

    Very thoughtful essay, Vassar. Reminds of the idea of when a lawyer has to defend a client he knows is guilty but still has to defend him.

  • aesthete

    Though the issue of abortion criminalization doesn’t (and shouldn’t) have to be federalized, the simple fact remains: biologically and scientifically, a fetus is alive, is human, and has its own unique DNA. If there’s a scientific definition that excludes fetuses while including infants, I have yet to see it. Therefore, their right to life should be protected, much like the rights of infants are today. To abandon such a noble cause this late in the game would be tragic, especially when the demographics and polling are just now favoring us. If we are to jettison a socially conservative plank, shouldn’t it be something that doesn’t affect life, such as gay marriage, school prayer, or religion in the public sphere (all of which are arguably more divisive than abortion)? A pro-life stance is entirely defensible under libertarian sensibilities using the argument I’ve given, and should be used to convince pro-choice libertarians. We should abandon the exclusively religious argument that we have thus far been using, and rely on the secular argument which established the anti-abortion laws in the US and the UK back in the 19th century. The states are the deciding arbiters of the penalties assigned to murderers, and as such, I have no problem with pointing out that pro-lifers in favor of repealing Roe v Wade are less extreme, and right on the 10th Amendment issue. I also have no problem with supporting and embracing pro-choice Republicans. This shouldn’t preclude us from supporting anti-abortion legislation in the states, though.

    • http://beaglescout.wordpress.com Beaglescout

      Murder is a state crime, not a federal crime. In some states, self-defense is a legitimate defense that makes a killing not a murder. In others, it is not a legitimate defense against the charge. That means that murder is defined as a crime differently in all states. Nobody is in favor of murder, even though it is defined differently in some states than in others. This is true for the murder of infants as well. And it should be true for the murder of babies who are still in the womb. Sometimes a killing is murder, sometimes criminal homicide, sometimes justified homicide.

      The key is that the decision as to what constitutes a crime should be made by the competent legal authority, and that is the state. It should not be made by the school district, the township, the ACLU, the bishop, the mayor, a land-owner, or by the federal government.

      In the meantime, believers should pray for those who do wrong and those who are wronged according to God’s laws whether or not state criminal prosecution follows. And they should attempt to change the laws of their state, or leave for another state.

      • aesthete

        Very much so. I simply think that, when the issue ultimately reaches the state level, the Republican party should stand ready to support a pro-life position (though it shouldn’t have a unified stance on what constitutes a “just” punishment). Thus, I would keep the pro-life plank, though I wouldn’t mind modifying it to favor a more federalist solution. Again, I think that, if the issue with the pro-life plank is its divisiveness, there are better planks to remove, such as support of marriage restrictions, support of the war on drugs, support of teacher-led school prayer, or support of religion in the public sphere, all of which are more divisive than abortion for most (though not all) libertarians.

        • http://beaglescout.wordpress.com Beaglescout

          Does the national Republican Party advocate Amber’s Law in every state? Or does it leave that to the state parties?

          • aesthete

            I’ll have to think about it. If so, however, I’d imagine that for consistency’s sake, the national Republican party would have to have a similar delegation on the War on Drugs and similar issues (which I’d have no problem with). I’d love to see the return of a truly federalist party.

    • LibertarianHawk

      Nothing in vassar’s essay advocates “abandoning” the cause of protecting the unborn. It simply pushes for a change of venue.

      And I would venture to guess that doing so would result in fewer abortions happening as compared to continuing the same political strategy.

      • aesthete
  • Viet71

    Am going to play Devil’s advocate here.

    Purely to make strong your argument, the 9th Amendment makes clear the People have rights not granted to the central government.

    The 10th Amendment provides that the states and the People have the rights not expressly granted to the federal government.

    It’s clear the Founders distrusted strong central government.

    The Founders preferred individual liberty, no doubt.

    Justice Douglas harmonized on this theme.

    But he preferred independent alive humans over fetus humans. He made a distinction.

    He was ignorant of today’s technology. He was arrogant.

    I assert he was wrong.

    I want each of us to be free. The real question is, who is “us”?

    Thing is, I don’t want to tell you how to run your life. If I do, I’ll tell you how to raise your child. I don’t want to do that.

    But I don’t want to kill a human.

    • penguin2

      their child.” I would think that depriving another human being of life trumps any infringement on the individuals’ above rights.

      Ironically, that brings me to a point that I made yesterday here. Just to digress for a moment, but in that comment discussed how much we are already socialized – significant intrusion of government – whether the HC bill is passed or not. I mentioned several examples, several which relate to children and parenting…

      I believe the Founding Fathers would have found the idea that we freely murder the unborn to be abhorrent. They wrote the documents establishing this nation under moral precepts. Now I understand working to get Roe v Wade overturned due to bad law, and focusing on Federalism, and making it a state’s issue; but why can we not use the Constitution itself to stop abortion?

      Shouldn’t the Constitution protect the unborn? Are we not depriving another innocent human being of life. Justice Douglas obviously ignored that there is life in the womb; without which no one is born alive.

      • http://thesandsinstitute.org Vassar Bushmills

        At best pro-life vs pro-choice is 51-49 or thereabouts? But it is on the upswing, when it was closer to 40-60. Sonagrams have helped as much a new awareness in religion. Since unrestricted abortions were allowed before Roe, it’s unlikely the requisite 2/3rds of the states would ever agree to any such language…without there being a national revival.

        Practically it’s a non starter, but it can be an ender, as many people seem to be holding out for that or nothing at all. That’s my pique here.
        Federalism is the ONLY common ground we can find with the pro-choicer GOP, and I think we, being the philosophical deeper of the two, have to be willing to reach out.

        But right now, the LEFT, the pro-death crowd, actually control the agenda. Perfect triangulation. See?

        • penguin2

          so much sense. I am willing to look at how to do this in increments. The stars are slowly, ever so slowly lining up eventually in our favor. What you laid out is reasonable in that people have to think logically how to go about this. How do we stop shooting ourselves in the foot and getting nothing for our efforts. The moral ground still belongs to us and going about this in a logical manner to keep the Left from using our own morality against us in the arguments….that is a reasonable goal. We have to start somewhere. So far, nothing we have done for the past 37yrs. has worked, the number of unborn killed only exploded, despite our intentions and desperation to stop the atrocity.

          IMO, your treatise is one to read, ponder about and reread. You are proposing that we look at true Constitutional Conservatism to fight this battle. It is sort of like a light coming on in a room, I see a glimpse of the way we can do this, and as you point out we need to frame our arguments to take advantage of what is on our side – the Constitution, specifically the 10th Amendment. I also see your “perfect triangulation” couldn’t happen to a worse group of people (the Left), could it? This all comes right back to your premise that the meaning of words do matter, not just the words, but how we use them.

          • http://thesandsinstitute.org Vassar Bushmills

            …of notes, and let you write the essay. Looking around RedState, I’d say you could ghost write for a bunch of us. :)
            Cheers

          • penguin2

            You give us a lot of sound reasoning and information, it makes sense to use it.

    • Achance

      presumably fertile, when he found those penumbras and emanations in Griswold. The tragedy is that the “privacy” he found for contraception got extended to killing a baby in Roe. That said, I remember the terror of teen pregnancy. The pill wasn’t invented until the mid-50s, wasn’t widely available until the early ’60s, and wasn’t readily available to females under 18 or 21 in some states until the late ’60s. People get horny before they get smart and sex wasn’t invented in the late ’60s. I know I had some terrifying weeks in high school! Remember the original “Peyton Place” book and movie? Remember the Dr. Kildare episode, “Tyger, Tyger?” At best there was going to be a horrifying confrontation with a girls parents who were going to tell you what a sack of $hit you were and how you were never coming near their daughter again after she got back from seeing her aunt in Montana. At worst, you were going to marry her and in those days, only CA had no-fault divorce. In those days college degrees actually meant something and that had just followed your weenie out the window; you were going to work at the kind of job a HS diploma would get you and you “had a chile,” to borrow a bit of Gone With The Wind. Frankly, having a child at a young age won’t ruin your life, but it will take you ten years to get to where the people who didn’t have a kid are.

      Anyway, I believe that abortion is murder. It can be justified as self-defense in some very limited circumstances, but it is still murder; there just isn’t any way out of that conclusion if you’ve ever thought much about it or seen an ultrasound. That said, I raised my daugher with Wife v. 1.0 as a single father through her teenage years. If she’d come to me at 15 or 16 and said she was pregnant, we’d have been on the next plane to Seattle and I’d have been looking to a conversation with God about it.

  • http://dreamsfrommyforefathers.com RoguePolitics

    I agree we need to overturn it and send it back to the sattes first.

    As Al Gore would say. The science is settled. There is no longer any doubt that from the moment of conception, it literally takes that long, the fetus is a separate human being. While it may have been possible to dispute that prior to DNA testing, it isn’t anymore. A simple DNA test would never show the baby as being the same person as the mother.

    Given that fact coupled with;
    “Amendment 5
    No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.”

    At some point post-Roe an unborn child will be recognized as human, a person. Then the 5th demands due process be honored before depriving the person of life. A legitimate federal interest in outlawing abortion nationwide thus springs into existence.
    Even now a federal law recognizing the personhood of the unborn would likely stop Roe without an Amendment or reversal. While incorporation has major flaws the recognition to due process rights is not one of them.
    The left knows this which is why they have generally not supported the two person concept some states have adopted related to pregnant women getting murdered.

    • http://thesandsinstitute.org Vassar Bushmills

      …but the Constitution doesn’t know me by name, either. In order to make it so you have to convince 2/3rds of the state of your position. Right now, i doubt we could half.

      Personally, I’d be against it, and so would a lot of Christian, conservative scholars, just as I know there are dozens of Liberal scholars who oppose Roe.

      • http://dreamsfrommyforefathers.com RoguePolitics

        But as I was pointing out. The 5th guarantees due process already. A simple act of congress could make the unborn human.
        If congress did that and removed the SCOTUS’s jurisdiction related to that determination then even Roe is dead.

        I don’t think it will happen that way. I think first Roe will be overturned.
        If Roe is overturned the fight will be in the states.

        But if the definition changes then it is a federal perogative instantly. I think Jaded is correct here. At some point a tipping point will be reached and it will again be a national issue but in our favor.

        SCOTUS could also decide to make humans HUMANS but I think that possibility is less likely.

        A lot of state side law and case work related to protecting the unborn has been done since Roe. Some of the most significant has been the move to recognize the child as a co-victim in a crime. At this point I don’t think it is a big leap for one state to recognize the child as a human person. If one does others will follow.

        • http://thesandsinstitute.org Vassar Bushmills

          …some of the animus between pro-choice and pro-life will subside. And a lot of babies will be saved.

          I’m trying to figure out a way to beat the Left. They are the ones who brought this down on our House.

          • http://dreamsfrommyforefathers.com RoguePolitics

            But the plank and the principle has to stay. If we were to remove it, it will be gone forever.

            The final goal is obviously to eradicate abortion. It is murder.

            At the same time political reality has to rear its ugly head and that means it doesn’t need to be a front and center issue. No sense leading with your chin.

            I look at it this way. Every poll shows we are winning the PR battle. More people are pro-life today than were in Reagan’s day. He was pro-life and the most popular president in my lifetime. But it wasn’t his sole or primary focus.

            For myself I can not and will not vote for anybody who is pro-abortion. I don’t require a prolife politician to make it a centerpiece of their campaign. They do have to be credibly pro-life. That means no Romney.

            Among politicians I believe Pro-Choice is the code word for pro-abortion. I am not sure pro-choice exists anywhere but definitely not in DC. Show me the “pro-choice” person who supports informed consent laws. Look at KBH’s abortion haven nonsense. She is what you get when the principle is not well defined or respected.

    • LibertarianHawk

      And he’s probably the most devoted critic of Roe/Griswold currently on the court.

      Here’s something he said to Lesley Stahl in an interview a few years ago:

      “My job is to interpret the Constitution accurately. And indeed, there are anti-abortion people who think that the constitution requires a state to prohibit abortion. They say that the Equal Protection Clause requires that you treat a helpless human being that’s still in the womb the way you treat other human beings. I think that’s wrong. I think when the Constitution says that persons are entitled to equal protection of the laws, I think it clearly means walking-around persons.”

      And it’s specifically because of this that it ends up being a political, rather than constitutional, matter.

      • Menlo

        If that were the case, then we’d exclude those who were born and unable to “walk around.” If one looks at everything based on its meaning when it was written, then he may have a point. I take a more “progressive” tack.

        Of course, I’ll acknowledge the fourteenth amendment presents a whole host of problems because the people who crafted it were shortsighted airheads. It needs a major do-over.

        Either way, my point would remain that at the very least, states should defy the judicial opinions.

  • TheSophist

    One minor quibble: Roe v. Wade wasn’t the problem. It was Griswold vs. Connecticut that gave rise to the “right of privacy” out of the penumbral emanations.

    Having said that, it appears from the comments that the split between politics and morality will be very difficult on this issue. Which is fine — it is as it should be.

    My thoughts are these:

    1. I think _all_ conservatives can (and should, and must) get behind the federalist position. This is a litmus test for me: if you do not support the federalist principles of the Constitution, then you are no conservative, period. Questions of abortion belong properly to the States, which are sovereign, not to the Federal government.

    Frankly, I would be opposed to a national law stating the unborn are “persons”. That ain’t the Federal Government’s business; let each State promulgate such laws, if the citizens of that State desire it so.

    2. While this is not quite a litmus test, it is a pretty strong issue for me: the conservative must prefer legislative solutions to the issue of abortion over the judicial. I frankly have no problem with the GOP pushing for legislation, even a national ban, on abortion; I will have real problems with the GOP — or anyone — pushing for a judicial program on abortion. We must restrain the power of the bench, or democracy is a farce.

    The talk of how the Fifth Amendment acts to protect the unborn, etc. is anathema to me. Once again, it is an attempt to stifle debate by bringing the Constitution into it. I reject it on the Left, and I reject it on the Right. I will resist attempts to regulate from the bench against abortion, as strongly as I resist attempts to regulate from the bench for abortion. On difficult social/moral issues like abortion, the people — through their elected representatives at the STATE level — should decide where they want to draw the line.

    I see no way to reconcile fundamentals of conservatism with activist judges.

    3. I fully respect the right of Republicans to convince 50% plus one of the voters in their state to outlaw abortion, define a fetus as human, whatever they want. But I will also fully respect the right of people — even Republicans — in other states to think otherwise. Federalism is not only a principle that applies to government; the principles and the ideals of federalism could and should apply also to the Party. On some things, we’re going to agree; on other things, we can agree to disagree, and handle it in our backyards.

    I don’t know that I would be comfortable with the national Republican plank commanding all Republicans to believe or support one moral position over another. The Republican Party ain’t my church; it’s a political organization. Stick to politics and political matters, not to moral issues that are more properly handled by other institutions in our society.

    -TS

    • http://thesandsinstitute.org Vassar Bushmills

      , in fact…

      ….You said it better than I ever could have. (That’s twice today.)

      About Griswold, true, I simply bypassed it. (Too much minutiae.) Since there is a new generation out there, I’m inclined to want to tell them how things were before Roe. The very strident Pro-Life Amendment group is a product of Roe, not abortion in general. This has proved useful to the pro-abortion, pro-eugenics Sangerites, who hope someday to use abortion as a mandated state-family planning tool. By calling it “choice” they have brought on board the “convenience” and “Vanity” crowd, in my day, college girls, who didn’t want daddy to know they’d been poking around.

      Add to that a general distancing culturally and philosophically from almost all aspects of religion the past 40 years…we now have two generations of well-educated, urban Republicans who have no idea whatsoever about the philosophical foundations of their Party.

      Gotta try to get that back. Gotta separate the pro-choice from the pro-murderers.

      I have my own case to make against the pro-life moderates, but would rather they shake hands with our guys.

    • tcgeol

      That is not a arbitrary decision that is made based on politics – those are strictly biological facts. Declaring that the unborn are human beings is not by any stretch a violation of federalism because, if they are by a legitimate biological definition, then they have the same constitutional rights as any other person.

      I couldn’t support a plank supporting a nation-wide ban on abortion, just because , like any criminal matter, it should be a state issue. The federal government doesn’t need to be given any more power on any issue. On the other hand, a plank supporting the prohibition of abortion in states would have no such problem, Any issue of nation-wide importance will have a component of morality involved and we have to take a stand one way or another.

      • TheSophist

        Declaring that the unborn are human beings is a “strictly biological facts”? Really? You can’t see disagreement between people on the basis of, for example, the existence of a heartbeat? Some might say “biological fact” is that an organism without a hearbeat is not a human being; others might disagree. That’s the essence of politics, isn’t it? To resolve differences peacefully, through argument, and ultimately through the vote?

        Besides, I just don’t agree that the Federal Government was ever ceded the authority to decide issues like “what is and is not human” except as it came to the issue of race

        And any issue of national importance will have a component of morality, true; I just don’t agree that “we” have to take a stand “one way or another”. Why not let the Texans take a stand one way, and the New Hampshire Republicans take a stand a different way? How is this a Federal issue at all?

        -TS

        • Menlo

          Simple biology does define what is human and what is a living organism. There is no personal opinion involved.

        • tcgeol

          There is no dividing point at which an unborn baby stops being “un-human” and becomes ‘human”. Therefore, a baby cannot reasonably be considered anything other than human. Human life and death do not get decided by popular vote. If our party has no position on the morality of killing unborn children, I have no real interest in participating. “We” don’t have to push for a total abortion ban in every state, but “we” need to clarify that while human life may not be important to the left, it is to us.

          If the federal government can’t rule that unborn babies aren’t human, then where do you get the idea that they can rule on the issue of race? You can’t have it both ways.

          • TheSophist

            “biological fact”, you must be referring to something that 100% of biologists agree on.

            Seeing as how biologists can’t agree on what “life” means, I’m not sure how they can agree on what human life means. That seems to me to be a question that biology is not equipped to answer.

            YMMV.

            If the federal government can

          • tcgeol

            The next time a human mother gives birth to a horse, I’ll give serious thought to the concept that we may not be sure about the definition of human life. Otherwise, any biologist should be a laughing stock if he says that we don’t know what human life is. The only reason that someone could say such with any pretense of seriousness would be if they were looking for a reason to support abortion.

            The 13th and 14th amendments say nothing about race. The 15th Amendment does, but only as it refers to voting. By your argument, though, it shouldn’t have made any such reference and should have been left to the states.

  • redneck_hippie

    politicians in all 50 states to advocate repeal of Roe and a return of the right to determine abortion policy to the states. How we make it safe is a question of time. States determine criminal laws and use of the death penalty. That is a strong case that needs to be drilled into the mind-numbed blue state sycophants. The moral people also must be brought to understand that advocating amending the federal constitution to exclude abortion is part of the reason we still, as a nation, murder babies in the womb. Fighting the right fight in the wrong way is fighting to lose. The moral people understandably want a revolution, when what actually will succeed is to abide by the founders’ intent. The constitution is beginning the very long process of a comeback. Misplacing pro-life advocacy as a federal issue now is counterproductive to saving the unborn and to saving the constituion. I live in a state that will be one of the last to institute anti-abortion laws, but I still want the states to determine. States that are governed immorally will fail along with their anti-abortion policies.

  • Menlo

    I don’t understand why people say “repeal Roe” when it is not even a law. It should be ignored and defied, as should all judges who use it.

    I also don’t understand why no one makes the case explicitly for equal protection. It’s like the Constitution stops after the tenth amendment. The fourteenth clearly limits what states can and cannot do and allows federal government to enforce it if needed. It should not be for the majority to deny equal protection of laws to the minority.

  • LibertarianHawk

    I’ve been advocating this paradigm shift for the national Republican Party for the past few years. And, no, it’s not because of my own views about abortion (I’m proudly pro-life).

    It’s because I think that the Republican tent is unnecessarily limited by abortion being a federal, rather than state, issue.

    And before any of my fellow pro-lifers jump down my throat, I also think that abortions could be reduced by moving the issue to the states.

    Would they be eliminated? No. A lot of states are never going to restrict abortion, much less ban it. But what’s the realistic chances that abortion could be eliminated at the federal level? Not much, IMO.

    So, vassar, my hat’s off to you on a thoughtful and poignant essay that all Republicans and conservatives — on either side of the abortion divide — should think hard about. What you’re suggesting isn’t moderating the GOP’s plank on abortion…it’s simply changing the venue.

    Think of it like capital punishment. It’s a state issue…and, thus, doesn’t factor much in our national politics one way or another.

    And I think doing the same thing with the abortion issue would boost the GOP’s fortunes in places where it’s a virtual non-entity these days and allow the conservative movement at large to expand its reach.

    • aesthete

      A paradigm shift on the issue is necessary for any traction on the issue, and at any rate, states are sovereign entities that are more than capable of establishing laws concerning the vile practice (even if we don’t agree with some of their laws). The federal government should be seen as the interloper that it is, and a voter in Missouri should be as concerned about abortion in New York from a political standpoint in the same way that he is views abortion in Ghana: as a tragedy that is none of his (political) business.

      While we’re at it, a shift from religious arguments (which, frankly, are weak) to secular arguments against abortion would be good, as well. Anyone who opposes abortion from a religious standpoint already has his mind resolved concerning the issue; we need to convince both the irreligious and the casual religionists that this isn’t an attempt to regulate morality, and shoving scripture down their throats does nothing except make it look like the argument is women vs. the church. We have the winning arguments from a secular point of view (biological life at stirring + unique DNA; evidence of higher thought patterns inside the womb), and our legal argument vis a vis Roe v Wade is also compelling.

      • http://thesandsinstitute.org Vassar Bushmills

        It’s nice to air things out, and nice to find a few who agree.

        Being Christian it also fits into my idea that one can judge the act, but not the actor. Above my pay grade.

      • Wing Zero

        Then tell folks we are killing off the next generation of tax payers. It’s part of the reason Social Security is going bankrupt. (My thoughts, but I haven’t researched the math…)

    • Wing Zero

      An unborn child is human life.

      What does the Declaration of Independence say? We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

      And if the Government is not protecting these… it’s only true mandate… what good is it? Life… I can not deny life to another human being that has given no cause to. An unborn child surely has not given me cause to end it’s life.

      To that end, I truly believe that if Churches and Conservatives would start a massive Adoption / Foster parent drive, abortion would end in this country.