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Global Warming: What Are The Chances?

Oxford University’s Tim Palmer is a professor of climate physics. In an interview for an article in Sunday’s Guardian, “Feel free to doubt climate change: just don’t deny it”, he touched on climate skepticism, “denialism”, and a topic not often broached by the Climate Change community: Uncertainty.

You may be confident that your house will not burn down this year, but you would be considered a fool by many people if you failed to take out insurance. And so it is with climate change. The detailed nature of global warming’s impact on the planet is not yet agreed by scientists. It could be dreadful; it could be limited. It might destroy vast stretches of the planet’s farmlands and send deserts spreading round the globe. Or it might merely result in sea level rises that inundate parts of Bangladesh and Florida and not much else.

There might be a 50% risk of widespread problems or possibly only 1%,” says Palmer. “Frankly, I would have said a risk of 1% was sufficient for us to take the problem seriously enough to start thinking about reducing emissions.”

OK, now we’ve found a climate scientist that speaks rationally, not a ManBearPig warming alarmist who thinks people will only be motivated to action if they’re scared out of their wits.

But there’s a problem with Prof. Palmer’s analogy.

Climate Science lacks a serious treatment of probability theory. I agree with Professor Palmer that the average person is uncomfortable with uncertainty and risk.The analogy with homeowner’s insurance is his attempt to bring the concept into everyday terms.

To his credit, Palmer says what few in the Climate Science racket are ready to admit: the conclusions drawn from Climate Science are far from certain. (I addressed the same notion here and here.)

ILLUSTRATION: A homeowner, Fred, pays $1,500 per year to insure against the catastrophic loss of his $200,000 house. Fred’s statistical risk of loss is 0.5%. The “expected loss” per year is $200,000 times 0.5%, or $1,000. To Fred, the certainty of the loss of $1,500 makes sense if he can be certain that the insurance company will keep him whole (or as whole as money can make him) in the unlikely event of a catastrophic loss. The extra $500 makes the transaction a profitable one for the insurance company. Both Tim and I would agree that this transaction is a wise and rational one for Fred to make.

But what if Fred’s insurance premium were, say, $5,000? Most of us would advise Fred to get a quote from another agent. How about $50,000? The risk of loss hasn’t increased, just the cost to insure that risk. The wise choice might be to “self-insure”, that is, to keep the $50,000 and live with the risk (maybe Fred puts that money to use fireproofing his house instead).

To take the argument a step further, what if Fred’s insurance company is be unreliable or insolvent? Fred has purchased a policy, but is uncertain that the promised compensation has any value? What is the policy worth? The answer is next to nothing, because insurance primarily buys peace of mind.

This is my point of disagreement with Professor Palmer: his insurance analogy as justification for some unspecified strategy to counteract Global Warming lacks a cost/benefit analysis.

In order to perform such an analysis, we need to assess the following:

  • The chance of a catastrophic loss – 1% to 50%? I’d favor the low end, Prof. Palmer the high end.
  • The magnitude of a loss, if it were to happen. Prof. Palmer says we can’t really know.
  • The cost of the “insurance” against loss.
  • The likelihood that the “insurance” will effectively mitigate against the loss.

The proposed “cost” is the willful hobbling of our industrial economy by forcing greater than necessary expenditures for energy (via an energy tax, carbon trading, or what have you). Such an action will certainly make those of us in industrial economies less prosperous. In the developing world, where people exist at the margins, it will ultimately cost lives. The cost is simply too high.

Where the whole deal falls apart is in the uncertain efficacy of the solution. Any real world carbon curtailment agreement is meaningless without the participation of China and India. Those countries have shown no interest in cooperating. Their continued growth (and unabated carbon emissions) will more than offset any self-inflicted carbon strategies on the part of the developed economies.

In summary, society is being asked to bear the certainty of a very high cost to insure against a potential loss of uncertain magnitude, when it is completely uncertain that the remedy can mitigate the loss.

Back to the homeowner’s insurance analogy, it’s called being “insurance poor”.

By definition, capital resources are limited. A key to a healthy economy is making capital allocation decisions wisely in order to prevent waste and inefficiency, and to maximize the benefit of employing that capital. The best way to make those wise decisions is to let them happen naturally, in the marketplace.

Cross-posted at VladEnBlog.

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COMMENTS

  • Tbone

    Prof Palmer is full of crap.

    • mschmitt

      … he’s probably getting his knees busted by the carbon cartel as we speak for using the word “uncertainty.”

      • ceili_dancer

        The science is settled.

  • ColoKid

    Hi, my name is Al Gore. I’m from World Catastrophic Casualty Insurance Company. I have a policy here I’d like you to consider. Sure the premiums are steep and the terms are unfair and impossible to understand, but I get sooooo much in commissions from selling it! Actually, you’re required to take the policy. Sign here or else.

  • hickorystick

    But the thing that stuck out, is if you admit uncertainty in the theory, you can’t make an argument for a fix. In other words, he admits he is starting with a conclusion, and working backwards. He can call it what he wants, but my understanding of the scientific process, as explained to me by an actual scientist, is the hypothesis is near the beginning of the process, a testable situation is set up, results are examined, conclusions are drawn, then it is written up and sent to a publisher, and hopefully other scientists find it worthy to critique ( simplified version, my own).
    Why we spend massive amounts of money on untested theory, I don’t know. We definately should not put the scientific label on something that has received so much interference from political bodies. We definately need to establish a wall of seperation between science and legislators.

    • azred

      In practice it already exists. There is no science in this debate.

  • spinoneone

    O.K., so how does Government propose to mitigate man-caused global warming? With taxes, of course. Who “spends” that income stream? Oh, right, the Government. The amounts are enormous. Do you think the Congress plans to use it to pay-off the national debt? Yeah, right. We are man; the bear is the envirofascists, and the pig is Congress. In the process, the Obama regime will destroy the American economy, which was one of its goals all along.

  • RedBeard

    We can argue with Palmer on the best course of action, but still respect him for being straightforward.

    It’s a real shame that the debate, for the most part, has been framed by leftist liars, charlatans, and profiteers. More Palmers and fewer Gores would at least elevate the discussion to a rational plane.

    • 6eorge Jetson

      About as settled as the Ptolemaic universe

  • 13Bravo

    Global warming is real as is climate change. I don’t think that anyone denies this. The planet has repeatedly warmed and cooled since time immemorial; this is climate change and is nothing new.

    The questions are:

    1. Are we currently in a global warming cycle?

    2. If yes, then is the global warming caused by man?

    There is evidence that at present we may in fact be in a cooling period not a warming period, and there is no evidence that mankind can actually change the climate.

    What Prof Palmer and other AGW believers want us to do is to assume that an unproven hypothesis is true and to take action that may or may not prevent some amorphous catastrophe from occurring that there is no evidence is an actual threat.

    The actions these individuals wish us to take are ones that in fact have been proven to actually be dangerous and would do massive harm to our economy and freedoms to prevent something that might not happen at all.

  • Adjoran

    but is there a more rational basis for judging the cost of preventing a loss?

    “Global warming” seems to be occurring, but well within the ranges of recorded fluctuations in the past. How much these fluctuations are influenced by “greenhouse gases” as opposed to solar activity is completely unknown. Completely unknown.

    It’s a scam, and has always been a scam, to give governments more control over private activity.

    • gamechange11two

      Whenever somebody blames global warming for some perceived weather aberration, I remind myself that we still are in the’normal’ range. The extreme weather predicted by some of the modelling only happens when the planet is another degree(f) or two warmer.

      Also, notice how hypothesis A, climate change induced by human activity, leads inexorably to conclusion B, widespread weather disaster. Have any of the alarmists even considered increased crop production, increased flora in general and reduced death due to less extreme winters as possibilities? Interesting how the science predicts a global emergency that only government control can prevent.

      • jb13

        Let me repeat: There can never – ever – be anything good that comes from global warming. This is what years of climate change has taught me. The Earth’s climate was at its optimum in 1850, just before the Industrial Revolution began. There was never a time in Earth’s history that the climate was more ideal for, well, anything.

        To insinuate somehow that carbon dioxide can be good for anything is a simply abhorrent idea for which any who think it should be ashamed and, quite possibly, sentenced to banishment from society.

        How dare you question a consensus of scientists!

  • alarm1201

    but liberals will never be convinced. When we speak to them in the mystical enigmatic language called logic we might as well be conversing in Sanskrit.

  • hunter

    Giving alarmists a graceful way out of the AGW hype and fear is a good thing.
    The analysis of the fallacies of Dr. Palmer is spot on.
    If someone is telling me my house might burn unless I buy their expensive, untested and dubious prevention, I think it would be reasonable to be skeptical.
    The ‘cure’ being promoted by the AGW community has no warranty, and no track record of success.
    And it is not at all clear the problem is nearly as bad as claimed.
    Real insurance pays specific benefits under specific conditions.
    And its cost is based on actuarial analysis of real risks.
    AGW policies only pay the promoters, and the problem identified may or may not even exist.

    • http://impudent.blognation.us/blog kyle8

      I want to pound them into the dust by showing how wrong and how intolerant they were, and if possible sue the hell out of them.

      When this all plays out we will have to make an example of the fear mongers.

  • Tbone

    ?Frankly, I would have said a risk of 1% was sufficient for us to take the problem seriously enough to start thinking about reducing emissions.?

    1% is not sufficient.

    • 6eorge Jetson

      But in all seriousness, there ARE resources being devoted to it. Those are the premiiums. We don’t need cap & tax.

    • jb13

      Electronics stores and others who sell extended warranty plans must love seeing this guy walk in the door.

      “You know, there’s a miniscule chance that this $200 device you just bought could break within the first two years, so we recommend you pay an additional 10-20 percent on your purchase price to buy this extended warranty plan…”

      “DEAL!”

  • muggedbyrealism

    Vladimir, this is by far the most balanced and reasonable climate change post you’ve written. Climate scientists and those (like myself) who work in climate policy have always spoken in terms of probability and risk assessment. I agree that certainty has been exaggerated on both sides; Al Gore states the worst possible outcomes as if they are inevitable, and Sen. Inhofe overstates the certainty that those of us who want action believe we have.

    Here is a recent paper that addresses risk and uncertainty by the Pew Center on Global Climate Change: “Calculating the Benefits of Climate Policy: Examining the Assumptions of Integrated Assessment Models” http://www.pewclimate.org/benefits-workshop/mastrandrea-calculating-benefits-of-climate-policy

    This is far from the only discussion.

    The sticky problem with cost-benefit analyses is that the damage function from environmental impacts are rarely linear. Things in nature get worse in a hurry. That’s the problem I have with Bjorn Lomborg’s conclusion–you can’t just spend a dollar to mitigate a dollar’s worth of damage, and scale up one-for-one forever.

    We spend a lot more money mitigating risks that are smaller, with a smaller chance of catastrophic outcomes, than those posed by climate change. Just because some of the solutions proposed are extreme, doesn’t mean all of them are. Our energy infrastructure is out of date. We import too much oil. We’re losing the race with China on new energy technology. Addressing all of these concerns means making decisions that will last 40 or 50 years (like building a new power plant). Given what we know, it makes sense to me to build a price on greenhouse gases into those decisions.

    Thanks for your attention.

    • aesthete

      Assuming that climate change were taking place, it is doubtful that we would achieve anything close to a preventative solution, for two reasons: first, the cost of doing so would be enormous (many economic analyses compare the effects of successful policy to those of the Great Depression), and since the benefits to taking action would be less obvious than the cost, whatever party took action would suffer at the polls.

      Second, any workable solution would take an unprecedented level of international cooperation with nation-states which have already made it clear that they won’t reduce their emissions (China and India). Getting rogue nations to comply would make the current situation with Iran seem like a cakewalk by comparison.

      If one truly believes that global warming/climate change is occurring, he would be better advised to look at measures that would help citizens deal with the fallout of climate change, as it is extremely doubtful that anything would be done to prevent it from occurring.

    • http://vladenblog.tumblr.com Vladimir

      I actually thought my twin posts on Conditional Probability were quite reasonable. I linked them in the OP. I hope you get a chance to review them.

      Blogger/statistician William Briggs covers some of the same ground, albeit in a more scholarly vein.

      The IPCC report makes a half-hearted attempt to quantify uncertainty, using code words to denote rough percentages. They are “virtually certain” that warming is occurring and “reasonably certain” that there’s an anthropogenic component.

      My point is that you’ve gotta believe the whole chain: 1)it’s warming; 2) it’s anthropogenic in origin; 3) climate models correctly forecast future temps; 4) there’s something we can do about it, cost effectively, and 5) the disease is worse than the cure.

      The minute you acknowledge that any of the links of that chain are less than certain, the thing starts to fall apart. They are interdependent & the probabilities multiply: 80%x80%x80%x80%x80% = 32%.

  • LDahl752

    Vladimir. I must remember this. Why are there so few people approaching the alleged climate change from a cost/benefit analysis? When the world economy is far worse off due to the infliction of carbon taxes, insufficient energy sources, etc., will it even matter if there are bigger deserts and some areas of Earth are under water? Not that I believe there are risks of that, I’m just saying….

    • muggedbyrealism

      Linda, there are many, many people approaching climate policy from a a risk and cost/benefit model. I work in the Senate, and that is our framework for approaching this. It is also the CIA’s approach, and the Pentagon’s approach.

      The problem is that the uncertainties in climate science are not on the good side of the ledger. Things can get worse than we suppose, not better. So a better analogy for Vladimir would not be buying insurance against your house burning down, but also against the chance that, because the way your house and others near it are built, that a fire in your house could burn down your entire neighborhood.

      Risk/cost/benefit analysis supposes that you can spend x or x – 1 to defray x amount of damage. And natural phenomena just don’t happen that way. They tend to accumulate. You don’t grow steadily. The effect of drugs on your body is not linear, etc.

      And carbon prices are already in effect in Europe, with no effect on the world economy. We will still use coal and oil with a carbon price, we’ll use a lot of natural gas and nuclear. We will just have a price signal for clean energy, not just for cheap energy. Remember, certain things are only cheap if someone else is paying the price. Would you prefer to live near a coal plant that had sulfur dioxide, mercury, lead, and nitrogen oxide scrubbers or not?

      • renny

        In England, a liter of gasoline is our $10. You think that has no effect on the ec.? Are you daft? No wonder you work for Cong.

      • http://dreamsfrommyforefathers.com RoguePolitics

        Cap and Trade has no place in a free country. Whatever the imagined benefit.

      • Joshua Persons

        1) Why is the CIA studying global warming?

        2) Why do you claim that Cost-Benefit Analyses are limited to linear calculations?

      • http://impudent.blognation.us/blog kyle8

        Just in my lifetime I have been lied to by the silent spring, the ozone hole, acid rain, the new ice age, the China syndrome, nuclear winter, the hot zone, killer bees, the swine flu(twice), Y2K, global warming, and now they are calling it global climate change.

        Ever heard of the Boy who cried wolf?

      • Leopard1996

        To show actual proof. Considering the “computer models” have been shown to have been manipulated to prove the hypothesis, there needs to be more proof to prove that the hypothesis is true, it is not incumbent on those of us that think that this deal is nothing more than trying to justify controlling the behaviors of people.

  • johnt

    I’m terrified. Then again maybe only Florida will be submerged under water, perhaps drowning Mr Crist.
    Either way climate scientists will continue to prosper for doing or accomplishing crap, that’s what really is at stake.
    And why are normal people not pointing out the comparative effects of Icelandic volcanoes to us dirty humans? Where is Al Gore and the NY Times on this?

    • muggedbyrealism

      SCIENCE: NOAA scientist sees ‘negligible’ cooling impact from volcano (04/21/2010)
      Lauren Morello, E&E reporter

      The ongoing eruption of Iceland’s Eyjafjallaj?kull volcano appears unlikely to have a significant immediate cooling effect on Earth’s climate, a top federal scientist said yesterday.

      “Right now, we can say the impact on climate is not clear at this time,” said Chester Koblinsky, who directs the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration’s Climate Program Office. “However, the basic parameters of this volcano to date suggest a negligible impact in the sense of cooling global temperatures.”

      Contrast that with the 1991 eruption of Mount Pinatubo in the Philippines. That blast sent 10 million tons of sulfur into the stratosphere, where the particles helped block sunlight. They cooled the Earth’s surface about 1 degree Fahrenheit for roughly a year.

      But the Iceland volcano is unlikely to have a similar effect in part because of its location. Although its ash plume has shut down air traffic in broad swaths of Europe, atmospheric circulation patterns make it unlikely the volcano’s ash will spread worldwide.

      “History shows us that volcanoes at lower latitudes — such as those in the tropical belts, like Pinatubo — have a much greater impact,” Koblinsky said. “High-latitude volcanoes tend to have their material confined to higher latitudes, and so the impact doesn’t tend to be global.”

      More importantly, the Iceland volcano also ranks low on the “explosive index,” the scale scientists use to compare eruptions. The scale, which goes from 0 to 8, ranks eruptions by the amount of ash they produce, the height the ash reaches in the atmosphere and other factors.

      The 1991 Mount Pinatubo blast rates a 6, while the 1980 Mount Saint Helens blast in Washington state earns a 5. In contrast, the Iceland eruption now appears to rank between 2 and 3, Koblinsky said.

      In practical terms, that means its ash is not reaching high enough into the atmosphere to cool the planet.

      Koblinsky said ash would have to reach a height of 10,500 meters — or about 33,000 feet — into the stratosphere. But ongoing measurements show the Iceland volcano’s ash reached under 10,000 meters on April 14, then fell to 8,000 meters on April 14 and now hovers around 6,000 meters.

      Still, Koblinsky said he couldn’t completely rule out the idea the volcano could have some measurable impact on the future climate, including extra cloud formation in some areas that could affect rain and snowfall patterns.

      Tony Hall, director of NOAA’s Alaska Volcanic Ash Advisory Center, said his agency is still keeping a close eye on the Iceland eruption.

      “The volcano is still erupting, so we’re still monitoring,” he said. “All of these volcanoes have their own personality, and behavior sometimes is a little difficult to predict.”

      • Achance

        in this administration is going to toe the AGW Party Line, so the volcano cannot have any effect on temperatures, only manmade carbon dioxide can do that.

        Interestingly, what a vocano can do at high latitudes is melt a LOT of ice and snow. Spread that nasty black or brown stuff over the snow and the Sun quickly melts the ice and snow, even in very low temperatures. One of the tricks whalers used when they became icebound was to mix lampblack with oil and paint a path out of the ice with it. Sunlight would melt and soften the ice often allowing them to free themselves.

        Many who allow themselves to think about it rather than just follow the AGW catechism believe that the primary cause of all the melting of Arctic ice a few years back and a series of very warm summers in some high latitude areas was wind patters that brought large quantities of soot from Chinese and Russian industries and from Siberian forest fires onto the Arctic ice and the snow caps of high latitude mountains. You never hear about it but hundreds of thousands, sometimes many millions of acres of high latitude forests burn every year. Of course, the warming that results form melting the ice and exposing the darker and more absorbtive surface inevitable results in more moisture in the atmosphere which begins to fall out as snow at high altitudes and lattitudes and once the snow and ice cover is restored, things cool back off – until the next time something happens.

        • muggedbyrealism

          “Many who allow themselves to think about it rather than just follow the AGW catechism believe that the primary cause of all the melting of Arctic ice a few years back and a series of very warm summers in some high latitude areas was wind patters that brought large quantities of soot from Chinese and Russian industries and from Siberian forest fires onto the Arctic ice and the snow caps of high latitude mountains.”

          I allow myself to think about it all the time. Many people? Who? And they believe this, or have investigated it?

          “You never hear about it but hundreds of thousands, sometimes many millions of acres of high latitude forests burn every year. Of course, the warming that results form melting the ice and exposing the darker and more absorbtive surface inevitable results in more moisture in the atmosphere which begins to fall out as snow at high altitudes and lattitudes and once the snow and ice cover is restored, things cool back off – until the next time something happens.”

          Actually, you do hear about this. And one reason you do is that climate change is making temperatures warmer at higher latitudes, which, in addition to allowing the spread of pests like the pine bark beetles which kill trees and turn them into tinder, also reduces rainfall and increases warm days, creating more of the forest fires you speak of. The black carbon released into the air has climate warming properties, and the reduced tree cover diminishes the planet’s ability to sequester carbon.

          • muggedbyrealism

            Also, your line on NOAA is an ad hominem attack, as well as impugning guilt by association. I thought RedState was a place for productive debate and exploration of ideas. That’s not productive debate. Prove your assertion.

          • Achance

            And anyone but stupid lefty children knows that spokespeople are the among the first employees of ANY government agency to be replaced on a change of administration. And the purpose of an agency spokesperson is to articulate the policy and positions of the Administration. I don’t like Democrats and I hate activist lefties, but I do give them credit for being good at the political side of running a government and they’ll make sure everyone toes the line.

          • Achance

            Except that the Children have pronounced their faith to be the one true faith and declared everyone who might question it to be a heretic fit only for the stake; that’s one carbon contribution the AGW Children would accept. The AGW Religion depends on the medieval level of ignorance and superstition that the government schools have created over the last couple of generations.

            I’m actually a bit of an agnostic on AGW; I think some things that man does could have some effect on climate but I don’t believe CO2 is a toxic substance and that belief is necessary to give the communists disguised as environmentalist the hook they need to destroy Western, especially American, capitalist economies. I am certain that many natural events over which man has no influence can make dramatic differences in weather and even climate for some period of time but the AGW Worshipers and Shills will hear none of that because it doesn’t help their political agenda.

          • muggedbyrealism

            I’m sorry, but you are describing a group of people I have never met. I spend most of my time with climate policy people. We do not think of opponents as heretics. Certainly I don’t. I don’t rely on ignorance. Much of what I read and hear on RedState and other conservative media perpetuates this stereotype. It’s just not true.

          • Achance
          • muggedbyrealism

            Do you want an echo chamber, or a debate? Do you want outside ideas and commentary, or your own sandbox?

            Sorry, ideas don’t care if people are tired. Neither does important debate.

            I’m not a troll. A troll carpet-bombs and leaves. I’m engaging in a debate here, going back and forth. If you want to resort to ad hominem attacks, that’s your prerogative. It says more about you than me.

          • ceili_dancer

            Some trolls try to thread jack and others will try to throw single bombs to et an emotional response. Then will high five his buddies in his mom’s basement and go back and tell his friends at Kos how he showed them. One of the first things trolls will try is the innocent, “What, I just wanted to have a debate about the issues and then impugn(sp?) Redstate and call us an echo chamber.”
            Carpet bombing will give a troll a shelf life of maybe one day. Argumentative trolls will last maybe a few days to weeks. If ytou are in good faith don’t make a mess in the living room. We are all guests at the party. Try to pull any shenanigans and a moderator will gladly show you the door escorted out by a shiny Blam Stick.

          • muggedbyrealism

            And I’m no fan of Kos.

          • Achance

            and cap and trade. In fact, there is no debate with a lefty. In order to embrace leftwing dogma, one must have lead a completely unexamined life and accepted the dogma ladled out by the government schools, the mass media, and popular culture. Further, it is interesting that you choose “mugged by realism” because obviously you haven’t been. Usually, a few semesters of Life 101 initiates some recovery from the programming, but if one has a nice sinecure in academia, government, media, entertainment, and some of the professions in the non-profit and interest group sector, one can keep the same stupid ideas he had smoking dope in a college dorm for the rest of one’s life. Lefties are perpetual children and they really don’t have anything to say that educated adults would be interested in hearing. But, lefties do have a lot of self-esteem.

          • muggedbyrealism

            Do you want to compare Life 101 experience?

          • blooch

            until you’ve been carjacked by a cubist. You don’t know Art.

          • Achance

            you wouldn’t be a mind-numbed lefty prattling about AGW and crap and tax. So, no, I don’t want to compare, but I’ve probably had more and better.

  • Menlo

    Even if you are 100 percent certain of the problem, causes, and solutions, it’s not something that the government should regulate.

  • muggedbyrealism

    Putting a price on externalities–like pollution–is something any libertarian and conservative should (and has) favored. Remember that cap-and-trade was originally a Republican idea.

    My liberty to use a resource or engage in an activity ends when it infringes on yours. In the case of pollution, if not state or federal government, who should step in? If the market is failing to provide a solution in terms of a price, what should be done?

    • daggit

      Your question presupposes that carbon-dioxide is a pollutant, and therefor it must be controlled. The only remaining question for you is who must do the controlling. There is a whole vast segment of the decision tree that you can’t even see from way over there.

      As mentioned above re: Prof Palmer, this sort of thing happens when one is working backward from a conclusion to try to reach causes.

      How about someone first demonstrate that carbon dioxide is some form of pollutant, instead of a normal component of the atmosphere. Then maybe we can examine if there is a need to control it and at what level.

  • renny

    and any attempt at climate manipulation would just be another Amtrak or Post Office or about to be health care.

    • muggedbyrealism

      Who should?

      • NoDoze

        Nobody should. Let states and local communities deal with local contamination, such as polluted streams and factories that emit excessive amounts of air pollution.

        The earth has functioned for many thousands of years without mankind managing the global environment,

    • muggedbyrealism

      And climate manipulation–spraying particulates into the atmosphere–is a bad idea which should not be attempted by anyone. Setting limits on carbon emissions, and allowing the market to set the price for those emissions, which is what cap-and-trade can do, is within government capabilities. The acid rain program did the same thing and worked very well.

      What does the government do well, in your opinion.

      • johnt

        It collects and raises taxes,

      • NoDoze

        and I kicked the stuffing out of the mugger. Perhaps you are having the same extreme reaction to attempts to force you to see reality. If “science” decided that the earth needed to be moved a few hundred miles farther from the sun to correct global warming, and if “science” proved that it was needed, and possible, what makes you think “the government” could get it done?

  • mkozikowski

    All the present approaches to combat global warming don’t actually attack the “Cause (CO2)”.

    All they do is tax the offender.

    It can be taken that there really is no push to eliminate the “Cause (CO2)”, because that would kill the Golden Goose.

  • realskinny

    man produced CO2 was a problem, you might have a point. Not computer models or unsupported assertions, but evidence.

    You all continue to refer to CO2 as carbon. You want everyone to think of it as black and dirty rather than as a harmless trace gas absolutely necessary for life to exist on Earth. As far as Cap and Trade being a “Republican idea”, that was to more efficiently ameliorate actual pollution—not that an idea being Republican necessarily makes it a good one anyway.

    Dr. Lindzen from MIT knows more about Climate Science than the two of us put together I’m sure and he says the whole man caused climate change due to CO2 production theory is preposterous. Of course the Senate wouldn’t allow him to testify. You don’t want any actual scientists involved in this political hoax.

  • johnt

    It is curious just how on a planet whose very atmosphere was created, altered, and altered again many times, and before Man lit his first cigarette, that today nature, which did the creation of atmosphere and all those changes, now takes a back seat to my 2004 Mercury station wagon,[ no pun intended].

    Almost as curious as the experts you cite in dismissing any substantial effect from the recent volcano. They know all this beforehand? Really ?? Or is it crystal ball bullcrap? Can’t take our focus off Man the Destroyer can we? Not that mega-bucks have anything to do with it.

    • muggedbyrealism

      That’s the point. To me, all environmental policy is about protecting human habitat. This too. We’re taking a bunch of carbon that was sequestered out of the atmosphere hundreds of millions of years ago and putting it back out there. The planet will be fine, and probably the US will be fine, the world will just be a very, very different place.

      Now, all that locked up carbon should certainly be used. We can use the energy in coal without burning it and releasing the emissions into the atmosphere. And you can make so many incredibly useful things out of hydrocarbons that I think we will look back in a century or so and think that just burning them was a waste.

      NOAA is not dismissing any substantial effect, they are just saying that current models and statistics say that it won’t, but that could change. Any effect it did have, though, would be temporary (over a couple of years), as the particulates come out of the atmosphere. This is the problem with geoengineering. Once you start, you can’t stop.

      • muggedbyrealism

        Far, far more money has been spent fighting and denying climate policy than has ever been spent funding it.

        • http://vladenblog.tumblr.com Vladimir
          • blooch
        • johnt

          Now go back to your room and lock yourself in.
          Bye !
          On second thought, you may be dangerous.

  • chc57802

    Each time I hear my wife say Reallllyyy? on the phone, I know it as code speak for BULLSH$T. “Aunt Martha says she spent nine hours cooking for Thanksgiving but her chiwawa just ate the whole turkey!” – Reallllyyyy?

    If I assumed that there may be global warming (not saying there is, but)
    1. Are there no pretty smart people out there that could figure out a solution to a one degree temperature rise? five degrees? more?
    2. We have put men on the moon with a budget of 1% of what NASA today spends annually; we have sent robots to Mars to study dust – and they continue to operate – far beyond their expectations.
    3. Today’s headline is “substance in breast milk kills over 40 types of cancer” (okay, I don’t think this has anything at all to do with global warming, but it is really cool. Billions in research and all we had to do is run to mama).
    4. The Dutch have combated sea levels for over 100 years with dikes (piles of dirt) – thousands of acres of airable land (maybe we’re not as smart as the Dutch)

    5 (and I could go on). Have you ever tried to grow corn? It will not grow below 70 degrees. Ask any farmer. It is possible to grow things when it is warm, is is NOT possible to grow things when it is cold (except for peas and lettuce – but I don’t like them anyway).

    Come on people, Realllyyyy? we are all going to burn to death and drown because of the Marlboro Man is riding his flatulent horse or in his Cadillac? I’ll agree that over 90% of the people in this world are stupid (can I say that? Okay, not so smart) , but can’t the other 10% (the moon, mars, Hubble telescope, curved space, nuclear power and the guy that figured out how dragon-flies fly) come up with a solution? Do I really have to flush three times and go blind trying to read in the dark?

    • acat

      and Global Warming or Global Cooling can both be managed, using science, by putting mylar “mirrors” in orbit.

      Warming – put the mirror between earth and sun, creating an artificial reduction in heat received.

      Cooling – move the mirror so it’s reflecting additional sunlight down onto the earth, creating a “second moon” or a longer day.

      This is entirely possible – IIRC the Soviet Union played with similar tech back in the ’50s or early ’60s.

      So. Why is Al Gore interested in managing what we do down here when there’s a remarkably cheap solution up there?

      Hint: It’s not about global warming.

      Mew

  • jdw4america

    I’m no scientist. I’m just a regular gal. I don’t know if the world is getting abnormally warmer or not. Frankly, I don’t care. I, and everyone I love is going to be long gone before my home is in the middle of the mega ocean, or whatever it will be called.

    Even if good ole Al is right and the Himalayas will be naked before 1020 – I could get hit by a bus, have a coronary or get poisoned by someone interested in collecting on my insurance, tonight, tomorrow, next week.

    What concerns me, however is the totally improbable way the scientific community came to the conclusion that the earth is warming and it’s our fault.

    See, I was alive in the 70′s. All of the 70′s. I clearly remember the alarms being sounded in ’77, ’78,’79 for the coming ice age! The planet is getting abnormally cold! Flee! Flee for your lives.

    The next time I hear about global climate change is in 1984. It seems scientists were wrong. It’s not getting colder, it’s getting warmer – a lot warmer. And we, the members of the human race are responsible.

    How can this be? Couldn’t tell ya. The proof these scientists had?
    Well, temperatures have gotten consistently warmer faster than ever seen before. Temperature changes?

    Slight problems.Temperature is NOT climate. We live on a planet that is 4.5 billion years old. We have records about temperature for a little more than a century. We lack over 99.99% of the planet’s temperature data since its creation. The data used to predict a coming ice age is only 5 years older than the data used to predict the coming watery end of civilization as we now know it. Impossible to know if any of that data means anything. A century is a blip in the life of this planet.

    Lastly, the data itself upon which these global disaster predictions are based are – to be generous – questionable. The data has not been kept? If this theory is true, this issue is one of the most significant challenges facing our species EVER. But these SCIENTISTS didn’t think they could store the data anymore? Were they keeping it on papyrus? Further, most of the “research” on global warming, the research that earned AL, – I never had a date in high school, but I make out with my wife in public now- his Nobel prize, has never even been PEER REVIEWED?

    There’s science you can sink your teeth into. Regardless of what the models say now, they are predicated upon research that has been untested, unchallenged, tainted and possibly made up.

    We cannot, however, make up the number of automobile fatalities which have been increasing steadily ever since the march for greater fuel efficiency has been championed as a noble green pursuit. If you make lighter cars, with less metal and more plastic, fewer people survive car accidents. That data has been collected and can be accessed by anyone who wishes to see it.

    Am I afraid that my kids are going to die from global warming? No. They have to die from something. Death is not our enemy. Evil and tyranny masquerading as compassion are.

    • acat

      Mew

    • momma

      …to this:

      “Am I afraid that my kids are going to die from global warming? No. They have to die from something. Death is not our enemy. Evil and tyranny masquerading as compassion are.”

  • hickorystick

    of easter Washington. I don’t get to excited about the earth changing, it already has multiple times. I do get concerned when the national Congress can’t make intelligent decisions about the course of the country. But i guess that’s why they rather talk about AGW