There Never Were Any ’180 Waterboardings’


The truth makes the lie to the spin.

Once again, we see the truth take a back seat to the best spin by Democrats. NRO’s The Corner blog has an exclusive report on the supposed “180 waterboardings” that the US government conducted on terror suspects and it appears that the truth is a bit different than the spin.

You see, it seems that there weren’t “180 waterboardings” but were instead 180 “pours.” In other words, water was poured on the suspects 180 times. Further, the rules were quite specific. No more than two sessions could be conducted on any suspect within a 24 hour period and no more than 6 “pours” of water were allowed per session.

This means that instead of 180 sessions on the waterboard there was a much lower 30.

But, as Cliff May notes on The Corner blog, all the carefully crafted rules for how to conduct waterboard interrogations reveals a far different situation than the Torquemada-like, torture loving Bush administration that critics are trying to advance.

1) Such detailed rules suggest that serious thought was given to where to draw the line between coercion — “stress and duress” — and torture. You can disagree with where those lines were drawn, but I don’t see how you can say no attempt was made to set limits.

Nor do I see how — except in an Orwellian universe — lawyers from the current administration can prosecute lawyers from the previous administration because they disagree with their legal opinions.

Not only lawyers but also physicians and psychologists were involved in these decisions. Indeed, these interrogations were supervised by physicians and psychologists who had the power to stop them. (My column today touches on this question.)

Time and intensity are relevant factors. Who would argue that a single night of sleep deprivation constitutes torture? Who would argue that a month of sleep deprivation is not?

2) Remember that Abu Zubaydah said: “Brothers who are captured and interrogated are permitted by Allah to provide information when they believe they have reached the limit of their ability to withhold it in the face of psychological and physical hardships.”

Any interrogator worth his salt would understand this means it is his job to bring his subject to the point at which cooperation is no longer betrayal but permitted according to his religious beliefs. Can that be achieved short of torture? Sure. Can it be achieved without coercive interrogation techniques? No, not with subjects who have the beliefs described above.

This picture is changing. Let us all try to quell the wild-eyed speculation and bring clarity to the situation, shall we?


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14 Comments Leave a comment

Who cares about facts when you have KnownFacts?

bk (Diary) Friday, April 24th at 7:33AM EST (link)

This is a fight we can win...if we'll fight

smagar (Diary) Friday, April 24th at 7:50AM EST (link)

The last administration, on so many issue, simply sat there and let themselves be whipped like dogs. And, our spirits sank as we watched our elected leaders meekly accept beating after beating…

On the issue of Enhanced Interrogation Techniques, I think the facts are on our side.

This time, I hope we play to win.

“Who will stand/On either hand/And guard this bridge with me?” (Macaulay)

I hope we do

Joe Cor (Diary) Friday, April 24th at 9:08AM EST (link)

There hasn’t been a fight we couldn’t have won for the past 8 years if we had just fought to win.

 
 

But the lies are SO much more interesting.

randy streu (Diary) Friday, April 24th at 7:53AM EST (link)

And profitable. Let’s not forget that.

 

Waterboarding is Torture

LibRick (Diary) Friday, April 24th at 8:14AM EST (link)

I’ll probably get flak for this, but please hear me out.. I personally believe waterboarding is a form of torture. Whether it was 30 sessions or 300 does not change my view on this but the details you presented do call into question the credibility those that have their pitchforks out.

I completely agree with the Cliff May quote “Nor do I see how …. lawyers from the current administration can prosecute lawyers from the previous administration because they disagree with their legal opinions.”

I just don’t see how there can or should be prosecution based a disagreement with lawful legal opinions. The Bush OLC provided guidance based on their review of relevant law and concluded that waterboarding was not an act of torture. The Bush administration and those involved with implementing the program, therefore, acted within lawful guidelines. The fact that these legal opinions were solicited indicate that all involved were intent on following the law even under the stress of the immediate aftermath of 911.

One should be able to disagree with the law, work to effect change, and implement that change but cannot retroactively prosecute. Have we given up on ex post facto law? I hope not or most of America would be in jail.

disagreeing without becoming a banana republic

pilgrim (Diary) Friday, April 24th at 8:29AM EST (link)

I don’t think there will ever be agreement between folks on what defines an enhanced interrogation technique, and I really don’t care to force such an agreement. There have been disagreements between the actions of a previous administration and current administration in this nation since the days of John Adams and Thomas Jefferson. The difference today, which I agree with you about, is the idea that policy makers of the previous administration should be put into jail. This is the kind of actions one sees in banana republics, and we should not go down this road in our country.


Activists Taking Action: Unified Patriots

Exactly

LibRick (Diary) Friday, April 24th at 9:25AM EST (link)

To go down the road of the current regime changing the rules and rounding up the old regime for prosecution smacks of a banana republic style of governance. America must be better than that.

 
 

Sorry Rick

Warner Todd Huston (Diary) Friday, April 24th at 8:43AM EST (link)

But by you extremely loose criteria of “a form of” just about anything can be deemed torture. I think listening to Nancy Pelosi is “a form of” torture at that rate.

———-
Be sure and Visit my Home blog Publius’ Forum. It’s what’s happening NOW!

And there it is WTH

LibRick (Diary) Friday, April 24th at 9:08AM EST (link)

As I stated, I personally believe that waterboarding is “a form of” torture and I concede that my statement is extremely loose. What defines torture, on an individual level, is subjective. Much of the current debate is focusing on this aspect and there may be well be 300 million different views on it.

The focus and debate should be about the legal opinions rendered at the time as they relate to actions taken and I don’t see any wrongdoing on this front.

 
 
 

As soon as we destroy the left's credibility...

rbdwiggins (Diary) Friday, April 24th at 8:19AM EST (link)

regarding every aspect of our national security, we can turn our attention to destroying the left’s credibility concerning the economy, energy and the environment.

The left opened this door. It’s time we slam this door in their collective faces and bloody their elitist noses.

To borrow a quote: “Faster, please.”

“Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn’t so.” – Ronald Reagan

Who is going to lead this crusade?

Greg (Diary) Friday, April 24th at 9:00AM EST (link)

John McCain? The any other RINO? Problem I see is republicans have to many agreeing with democrats position and the many one is supposedly the leader of our party. We can’t even call a socialist a socialist without being accused of being races redneck B** by the media.

Regarding national security: Either the Taliban, or Iran...

rbdwiggins (Diary) Friday, April 24th at 9:34AM EST (link)

The OLC Memos are a distraction. The same can be said for the DHS Report.

The economy continued to decline throughout President Obama’s World Apology Tour, and the administration’s only response has been to accumulate more debt and threaten to regulate CO2. Chrysler will likely enter Chapter 11 next week, GM is closing plants for the summer, and the commercial real estate market is hanging-on, but is on the verge of collapse.

The perfect storm is building, just over the horizon, and Obama hopes no one is paying attention. Unfortunately for him, the Tea Parties are only the beginning.

“Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn’t so.” – Ronald Reagan

 
 
 

A definition of torture

hampa (Diary) Friday, April 24th at 10:34AM EST (link)

I have read in the news that torture is an act that ‘shocks the conscience”.
I would call the untimely but sudden death of Daniel Pearl or the treatment of Senator McCain and other POWs where their arms were strapped behind their backs until the elbows touched and then they were hoisted off the floor by the elbows Those acts shock my conscience especially when they had no useful information to impart.
Waterboarding may be terrifying but it is not painful The terrorists who received that treatment are still alive and can raise their arms above their shoulders. They probably have nightmares about it and be extremely reluctant to have it done again but what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger. Right?
The people who did the interrogations are not sadists who caused pain and suffering for the joy of it, indeed they are professionals and patriots who have spent their lives standing between us and the “barbarians and the gates”.

 

Just like Barry Bonds' home run totals

Lammo (Diary) Friday, April 24th at 12:46PM EST (link)

and the “90% of guns seized from Mexican drug lords come from the US” claim, it seems that any statistic from this administration needs to come with an asterisk.

Don’t be so open minded that your brains fall out. (John Corapi, The Black Sheep Dog)