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	<title>Comments on: Bad Economy to Get Worse With Obamacare</title>
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	<link>http://www.redstate.com/warner_todd_huston/2009/07/16/bad-economy-to-get-worse-with-obamacare/</link>
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	<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 08:18:09 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: The_Gadfly</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/warner_todd_huston/2009/07/16/bad-economy-to-get-worse-with-obamacare/#comment-8700</link>
		<dc:creator>The_Gadfly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2009 17:52:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/warner_todd_huston/?p=2069#comment-8700</guid>
		<description>and figure out exactly how we make it an advantage, we will win. I suspect the key is in precisely what you have said phrased just a bit differently "one person can't keep up with it all." Which means we setup a decentralized organization that matches our philosophy, because they will never be able to setup anything except a centralized organization. And a centralized organization always comes down to too few decision makers, while the decentralized organization can have a sufficient number.

And yes, you are doing some seriously stellar heavy lifting with your posts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>and figure out exactly how we make it an advantage, we will win. I suspect the key is in precisely what you have said phrased just a bit differently &#8220;one person can&#8217;t keep up with it all.&#8221; Which means we setup a decentralized organization that matches our philosophy, because they will never be able to setup anything except a centralized organization. And a centralized organization always comes down to too few decision makers, while the decentralized organization can have a sufficient number.</p>
<p>And yes, you are doing some seriously stellar heavy lifting with your posts.</p>
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		<title>By: discerningconservative</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/warner_todd_huston/2009/07/16/bad-economy-to-get-worse-with-obamacare/#comment-8631</link>
		<dc:creator>discerningconservative</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 05:48:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/warner_todd_huston/?p=2069#comment-8631</guid>
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		<title>By: Warner Todd Huston</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/warner_todd_huston/2009/07/16/bad-economy-to-get-worse-with-obamacare/#comment-8630</link>
		<dc:creator>Warner Todd Huston</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 05:44:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/warner_todd_huston/?p=2069#comment-8630</guid>
		<description>There's just so damnably much to keep after. It is more than a person can keep up with!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s just so damnably much to keep after. It is more than a person can keep up with!</p>
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		<title>By: Vegas_Rick</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/warner_todd_huston/2009/07/16/bad-economy-to-get-worse-with-obamacare/#comment-8621</link>
		<dc:creator>Vegas_Rick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 16:36:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/warner_todd_huston/?p=2069#comment-8621</guid>
		<description>Independent contractors ( I am one, and I hire others) will be the way around this until the Dems figure out a way to stop it. They'll probably use the IRS for their end-around. 

I'm sure the most famous independent contractor, Treasury Sec. Geithner, who has experience using that status to cheat the IRS, will figure out a way to screw the rest of us IC's.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Independent contractors ( I am one, and I hire others) will be the way around this until the Dems figure out a way to stop it. They&#8217;ll probably use the IRS for their end-around. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m sure the most famous independent contractor, Treasury Sec. Geithner, who has experience using that status to cheat the IRS, will figure out a way to screw the rest of us IC&#8217;s.</p>
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		<title>By: The_Gadfly</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/warner_todd_huston/2009/07/16/bad-economy-to-get-worse-with-obamacare/#comment-8620</link>
		<dc:creator>The_Gadfly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 16:30:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/warner_todd_huston/?p=2069#comment-8620</guid>
		<description>I think this is the sort of post that will be more effective in the long run than the one about fines you wrote the other day.

An additional bit as reported in the &lt;I&gt;Washington Times&lt;/I&gt;:

The top federal income tax rate would hit 45% in 2011, a level not seen since Reagan came into office.

The point that it is Dem-Socialists who want to turn back the clock on history might be a good point to make with other Americans.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think this is the sort of post that will be more effective in the long run than the one about fines you wrote the other day.</p>
<p>An additional bit as reported in the <i>Washington Times</i>:</p>
<p>The top federal income tax rate would hit 45% in 2011, a level not seen since Reagan came into office.</p>
<p>The point that it is Dem-Socialists who want to turn back the clock on history might be a good point to make with other Americans.</p>
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		<title>By: The_Gadfly</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/warner_todd_huston/2009/07/16/bad-economy-to-get-worse-with-obamacare/#comment-8617</link>
		<dc:creator>The_Gadfly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 16:23:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/warner_todd_huston/?p=2069#comment-8617</guid>
		<description>on the themes so as not to get caught in the details like a fly in amber. It's one of the Dem's more proficient techniques for winning battles.

I like Ed's point about not technically outlawing private insurance but doing so for all practical purposes. That's the sort of thing that will resonate with average Americans as a pointed-headed underhanded 'it depend on what your definition of &lt;I&gt;is&lt;/I&gt; is' tactic. They don't like that and are usually pretty good about making their voices heard when they suspect such shenanigans will affect them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>on the themes so as not to get caught in the details like a fly in amber. It&#8217;s one of the Dem&#8217;s more proficient techniques for winning battles.</p>
<p>I like Ed&#8217;s point about not technically outlawing private insurance but doing so for all practical purposes. That&#8217;s the sort of thing that will resonate with average Americans as a pointed-headed underhanded &#8216;it depend on what your definition of <i>is</i> is&#8217; tactic. They don&#8217;t like that and are usually pretty good about making their voices heard when they suspect such shenanigans will affect them.</p>
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		<title>By: The_Gadfly</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/warner_todd_huston/2009/07/16/bad-economy-to-get-worse-with-obamacare/#comment-8613</link>
		<dc:creator>The_Gadfly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 16:12:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/warner_todd_huston/?p=2069#comment-8613</guid>
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		<title>By: djemi</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/warner_todd_huston/2009/07/16/bad-economy-to-get-worse-with-obamacare/#comment-8612</link>
		<dc:creator>djemi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 15:58:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/warner_todd_huston/?p=2069#comment-8612</guid>
		<description>the devils in the detail and I would say that we conservatives need to be able to back up our 'broad theme' objections with the numbers/facts. I for one don't want to be like the Dems with all those talking piont but there being nothing there when the curtains are pulled back, one of the many reasons that I come here to read the front page, the diaries and follow the links.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the devils in the detail and I would say that we conservatives need to be able to back up our &#8216;broad theme&#8217; objections with the numbers/facts. I for one don&#8217;t want to be like the Dems with all those talking piont but there being nothing there when the curtains are pulled back, one of the many reasons that I come here to read the front page, the diaries and follow the links.</p>
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		<title>By: Warner Todd Huston</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/warner_todd_huston/2009/07/16/bad-economy-to-get-worse-with-obamacare/#comment-8610</link>
		<dc:creator>Warner Todd Huston</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 15:40:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/warner_todd_huston/?p=2069#comment-8610</guid>
		<description>That's why I stick to the themes of rationing, tax hikes, government corruption, and doctors not being able to say what your care will be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s why I stick to the themes of rationing, tax hikes, government corruption, and doctors not being able to say what your care will be.</p>
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		<title>By: Spartan4Life</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/warner_todd_huston/2009/07/16/bad-economy-to-get-worse-with-obamacare/#comment-8609</link>
		<dc:creator>Spartan4Life</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 15:29:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/warner_todd_huston/?p=2069#comment-8609</guid>
		<description>This is the mistake we as conservatives make. Once liberals get us arguing about the details like how much it is going to cost or how it gets paid for  then they have already won. 

We need to keep our objections on broad themes. Here are some suggestions:

Job Killer
Deficit/Debt
Loss of Freedom
"Government" = Inept
"Healthcare" = Welfare

Those are just some that popped in my head.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is the mistake we as conservatives make. Once liberals get us arguing about the details like how much it is going to cost or how it gets paid for  then they have already won. </p>
<p>We need to keep our objections on broad themes. Here are some suggestions:</p>
<p>Job Killer<br />
Deficit/Debt<br />
Loss of Freedom<br />
&#8220;Government&#8221; = Inept<br />
&#8220;Healthcare&#8221; = Welfare</p>
<p>Those are just some that popped in my head.</p>
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		<title>By: 6eorge Jetson</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/warner_todd_huston/2009/07/16/bad-economy-to-get-worse-with-obamacare/#comment-8606</link>
		<dc:creator>6eorge Jetson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 15:13:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/warner_todd_huston/?p=2069#comment-8606</guid>
		<description>Thanks for nothing (literally), Fifty-three percent!


&lt;img src="http://yzss6g.blu.livefilestore.com/y1puPdMvOGFJjBTKRm5ydtAlRsLjg7mDyHGBxV9H5ka71BKIM8XAXApCbISv1GunzIPzsbbd7WL80rQSUdEMduevw/OwnGoal.jpg" /&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for nothing (literally), Fifty-three percent!</p>
<p><img src="http://yzss6g.blu.livefilestore.com/y1puPdMvOGFJjBTKRm5ydtAlRsLjg7mDyHGBxV9H5ka71BKIM8XAXApCbISv1GunzIPzsbbd7WL80rQSUdEMduevw/OwnGoal.jpg" /></p>
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		<title>By: constitutionalistconservative</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/warner_todd_huston/2009/07/16/bad-economy-to-get-worse-with-obamacare/#comment-8603</link>
		<dc:creator>constitutionalistconservative</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 14:13:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/warner_todd_huston/?p=2069#comment-8603</guid>
		<description>Being a small business owner that does not have any employees and sub-contracts regularly with other hard working small businesses in my area, I see only one real answer to this taxation and health care issue: Independent Contractors.

Having been in the real estate industry since I was 21, you rarely had "employees."  The real estate offices were all "independent contractors."  This was both for legal purposes and for purposes of keeping employment costs and benefits low.  This is what we will see happen to small business.  Contract employees and independent contractors will become the norm, to cut back on government mandated health care costs.  You will see small businesses require and independent contractor's agreement be signed and then the independent contractor will be 1099 to reduce the small businesses income tax level.  As a sole proprietor, I am fully aware that the cost of business insurance alone is enough to make you choke. I can only imagine what the cost of employment benefits must be.

In addition, you will see more outsourcing sent to India and China.  Since starting my new graphic design business three years ago, I have had at minimum 15 calls from foreign companies (India) for custom web programming and flash design assistance and continue to I receive calls like this regularly.   Since I believe in quality control and keeping jobs in the USA, I send my sub-contract work to local designers I have built a strong relationship with or I learn how to do the custom programming myself.  But, for other small businesses in manufacturing, that have slim profit margins already, that see the "pennies on the dollar" difference to ship work over seas; we will see  "mom &#38; pop" shops shipping jobs over seas at a rate that big businesses are  (these are small businesses that would have never considered outsourcing their manufacturing to hurting overseas companies, but will finally take the plunge looking for an "out" from the current government's business destroying tactics).

One thing about small business - they will never fail at figuring out a way to make a dollar.  It is the American way, one the Democrats have forgotten....unless it is getting tax dollars.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Being a small business owner that does not have any employees and sub-contracts regularly with other hard working small businesses in my area, I see only one real answer to this taxation and health care issue: Independent Contractors.</p>
<p>Having been in the real estate industry since I was 21, you rarely had &#8220;employees.&#8221;  The real estate offices were all &#8220;independent contractors.&#8221;  This was both for legal purposes and for purposes of keeping employment costs and benefits low.  This is what we will see happen to small business.  Contract employees and independent contractors will become the norm, to cut back on government mandated health care costs.  You will see small businesses require and independent contractor&#8217;s agreement be signed and then the independent contractor will be 1099 to reduce the small businesses income tax level.  As a sole proprietor, I am fully aware that the cost of business insurance alone is enough to make you choke. I can only imagine what the cost of employment benefits must be.</p>
<p>In addition, you will see more outsourcing sent to India and China.  Since starting my new graphic design business three years ago, I have had at minimum 15 calls from foreign companies (India) for custom web programming and flash design assistance and continue to I receive calls like this regularly.   Since I believe in quality control and keeping jobs in the USA, I send my sub-contract work to local designers I have built a strong relationship with or I learn how to do the custom programming myself.  But, for other small businesses in manufacturing, that have slim profit margins already, that see the &#8220;pennies on the dollar&#8221; difference to ship work over seas; we will see  &#8220;mom &amp; pop&#8221; shops shipping jobs over seas at a rate that big businesses are  (these are small businesses that would have never considered outsourcing their manufacturing to hurting overseas companies, but will finally take the plunge looking for an &#8220;out&#8221; from the current government&#8217;s business destroying tactics).</p>
<p>One thing about small business - they will never fail at figuring out a way to make a dollar.  It is the American way, one the Democrats have forgotten&#8230;.unless it is getting tax dollars.</p>
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		<title>By: djemi</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/warner_todd_huston/2009/07/16/bad-economy-to-get-worse-with-obamacare/#comment-8602</link>
		<dc:creator>djemi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 13:37:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/warner_todd_huston/?p=2069#comment-8602</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;....the cause of freedom is too important to let those who are incapable of self-sufficiency distory it. Remember, to us, slavery and tyranny are far-fetched concepts that history has righted -- but to history, the far-fetched concept is the idea that men should be free.&lt;/blockquote&gt;



From, &lt;a href="http://www.amazon.com/dp/1439168571?tag=glennbeckcom-20&#38;camp=0&#38;creative=0&#38;linkCode=as1&#38;creativeASIN=1439168571&#38;adid=06GEYFD8TWJZ5YS934NZ&#38;"&gt;The Case Against An Out-Of-Control Government, Glenn Beck's Common Sense&lt;/a&gt;. Yes I'm one of those rodeo clowns, but IMHO this is a better &lt;a href="http://www.redstate.com/coldwarrior/2009/06/30/lets-change-the-world-now-like-the-obamabots-did-or-not/"&gt;strategy(h/tColdWarrior)&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>&#8230;.the cause of freedom is too important to let those who are incapable of self-sufficiency distory it. Remember, to us, slavery and tyranny are far-fetched concepts that history has righted &#8212; but to history, the far-fetched concept is the idea that men should be free.</p></blockquote>
<p>From, <a href="http://www.amazon.com/dp/1439168571?tag=glennbeckcom-20&amp;camp=0&amp;creative=0&amp;linkCode=as1&amp;creativeASIN=1439168571&amp;adid=06GEYFD8TWJZ5YS934NZ&amp;">The Case Against An Out-Of-Control Government, Glenn Beck&#8217;s Common Sense</a>. Yes I&#8217;m one of those rodeo clowns, but IMHO this is a better <a href="http://www.redstate.com/coldwarrior/2009/06/30/lets-change-the-world-now-like-the-obamabots-did-or-not/">strategy(h/tColdWarrior)</a></p>
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		<title>By: djemi</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/warner_todd_huston/2009/07/16/bad-economy-to-get-worse-with-obamacare/#comment-8601</link>
		<dc:creator>djemi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 13:14:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/warner_todd_huston/?p=2069#comment-8601</guid>
		<description>It gets worse from &lt;a href="http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?secid=1501&#38;status=article&#38;id=332548165656854"&gt;Investors Business Daily’s&lt;/a&gt; via &lt;a href="http://hotair.com/archives/2009/07/16/does-obamacare-outlaw-private-insurance/"&gt;Ed Morrissey&lt;/a&gt; comes this


&lt;blockquote&gt;When we first saw the paragraph Tuesday, just after the 1,018-page document was released, we thought we surely must be misreading it. So we sought help from the House Ways and Means Committee.
It turns out we were right: The provision would indeed outlaw individual private coverage. Under the Orwellian header of “Protecting The Choice To Keep Current Coverage,” the “Limitation On New Enrollment” section of the bill clearly states:
“Except as provided in this paragraph, the individual health insurance issuer offering such coverage does not enroll any individual in such coverage if the first effective date of coverage is on or after the first day” of the year the legislation becomes law.
So we can all keep our coverage, just as promised — with, of course, exceptions: Those who currently have private individual coverage won’t be able to change it. Nor will those who leave a company to work for themselves be free to buy individual plans from private carriers.&lt;/blockquote&gt;



And as Ed says


&lt;blockquote&gt;Does this bill outlaw private insurance?  Literally, no, but in practical terms, it makes it an endangered species and creates an American single-payer system by default.&lt;/blockquote&gt;


Sure looks that way to me, but I'm a mere dyslexic carpenter who happened to watch his mother die waiting for government run healthcare, but we have to be &lt;a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/19/magazine/19healthcare-t.html?_r=2&#38;partner=rss&#38;emc=rss&#38;pagewanted=all"&gt;NICE&lt;/a&gt; and understanding about these things.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It gets worse from <a href="http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?secid=1501&amp;status=article&amp;id=332548165656854">Investors Business Daily’s</a> via <a href="http://hotair.com/archives/2009/07/16/does-obamacare-outlaw-private-insurance/">Ed Morrissey</a> comes this</p>
<blockquote><p>When we first saw the paragraph Tuesday, just after the 1,018-page document was released, we thought we surely must be misreading it. So we sought help from the House Ways and Means Committee.<br />
It turns out we were right: The provision would indeed outlaw individual private coverage. Under the Orwellian header of “Protecting The Choice To Keep Current Coverage,” the “Limitation On New Enrollment” section of the bill clearly states:<br />
“Except as provided in this paragraph, the individual health insurance issuer offering such coverage does not enroll any individual in such coverage if the first effective date of coverage is on or after the first day” of the year the legislation becomes law.<br />
So we can all keep our coverage, just as promised — with, of course, exceptions: Those who currently have private individual coverage won’t be able to change it. Nor will those who leave a company to work for themselves be free to buy individual plans from private carriers.</p></blockquote>
<p>And as Ed says</p>
<blockquote><p>Does this bill outlaw private insurance?  Literally, no, but in practical terms, it makes it an endangered species and creates an American single-payer system by default.</p></blockquote>
<p>Sure looks that way to me, but I&#8217;m a mere dyslexic carpenter who happened to watch his mother die waiting for government run healthcare, but we have to be <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/19/magazine/19healthcare-t.html?_r=2&amp;partner=rss&amp;emc=rss&amp;pagewanted=all">NICE</a> and understanding about these things.</p>
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		<title>By: djemi</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/warner_todd_huston/2009/07/16/bad-economy-to-get-worse-with-obamacare/#comment-8600</link>
		<dc:creator>djemi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 12:50:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/warner_todd_huston/?p=2069#comment-8600</guid>
		<description>So after some simple math your saying that the Taxman is going to get approx 15 billion[8% of ($375,000 * 500,000 employers)]out of small out of this &lt;em&gt;&lt;strong&gt;'payroll fine'&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/em&gt; which is maybe 1.5% of the current CBO estimate of the cost of this beast.
That would be an intresting number to know, the overall profected percentage that small biss is going to pay towards healthcare. I'd also say that this 8%, like all taxes, is going to either decrease employment or increase comsumer prices (which again decreases employment), we pay no matter what.
I have the biggest problem with this


&lt;blockquote&gt;Even if a small business does offer insurance, they are still required to pay a payroll tax if an employee chooses to opt out and enter the government plan.&lt;/blockquote&gt;


As it is a doubled edge sword. What incentives are in the beast to encourage poeple to opt for the government plan? If the owner offers insurance and only half of his employee opt for it, the owners ability to gain a good price on said insurance decreases i.e the cost goes up, making it less attractive for the owner to offer it in the first place. Put another way if the insurance premium is not less than 8% of the small biss payroll it's not worth offering it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So after some simple math your saying that the Taxman is going to get approx 15 billion[8% of ($375,000 * 500,000 employers)]out of small out of this <em><strong>&#8216;payroll fine&#8217;</strong></em> which is maybe 1.5% of the current CBO estimate of the cost of this beast.<br />
That would be an intresting number to know, the overall profected percentage that small biss is going to pay towards healthcare. I&#8217;d also say that this 8%, like all taxes, is going to either decrease employment or increase comsumer prices (which again decreases employment), we pay no matter what.<br />
I have the biggest problem with this</p>
<blockquote><p>Even if a small business does offer insurance, they are still required to pay a payroll tax if an employee chooses to opt out and enter the government plan.</p></blockquote>
<p>As it is a doubled edge sword. What incentives are in the beast to encourage poeple to opt for the government plan? If the owner offers insurance and only half of his employee opt for it, the owners ability to gain a good price on said insurance decreases i.e the cost goes up, making it less attractive for the owner to offer it in the first place. Put another way if the insurance premium is not less than 8% of the small biss payroll it&#8217;s not worth offering it.</p>
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