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The Watercooler ~ The God-Haters Ruling Over Us

By: westcoastpatriette (Diary)  |  March 12th, 2013 at 08:58 AM  | 

RESIZE: AAA

Much has been said by libertarian-leaning political activists and the most determined progressive leftists about the so-called, “separation of church and state.” They rage against anyone who factors morality into their world view — as if they fear they may be forced into a life constricted by judgmental, holier-than-thou preachers pointing a finger at them warning them of impending hell if they don’t change their ways.

And yet, the more ground the God-haters take in the various power structures in the culture, the more miserable America and life in America becomes. From family life, to the government, to the educational system, and the entertainment industry — even our free-enterprise system, the left’s goals to ban God from all of these realms leaves us with tyrants dictating the way they think things should be…or else.

Paradoxically, God’s kingdom operates on completely opposite principles. Those who humble themselves shall be exalted. Those who lose their lives shall find it. The more you give away, the more you receive and evil is overcome with good. Those whose lives have truly been surrendered to God recognize their need for Him and really do understand that morality cannot be legislated at all, but it is the outworking of a life that trusts in God to transform them. Hence, they are much less inclined to be obsessed with dominating, controlling and changing others using their own manipulative strength.

I think more than anything else, what is becoming more apparent to me is just how ugly mankind is without God. The further away from really knowing and honoring God a person gets, the more tyrannical they become.

One need only look at Bloomberg and Obama for stark examples of this.

Bloomberg is so full of himself that he thinks he needs to dictate the size of soda that should be legal in order to save us from ourselves. And now that the courts have stopped him in his tracks, he is so obsessed with his power and the rightness of exerting it, that he is vowing to appeal this monumental, life-impacting decision.

What a waste of time and money. But, Bloomberg’s superior wisdom must rule…or else!

Obama’s arrogance makes him think he is completely above the laws — deceiving himself into thinking he can single-handedly disregard and declare them changed at will in order to implement the fundamental transformation he envisions for America.

And the God-haters think we’re scary!

Give me God-lovers or give me death!

The Watecooler is always an open thread.

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COMMENTS

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  • kipling

    The comments in lineholder’s diary on “The Bible” turned pretty ugly yesterday. I never expected Redstate moderators and Front Page Writers to actively ridicule and mock Christians who believe in the Doctrine of Biblical inerrancy. I did not expect that of streiff and RMJ. I hope we did not lose Melody but streiff calling her a “ditz” was totally uncalled for and showed his ass. She simply stated what theologians have held for centuries. I guess streiff in his wisdom trumps all of that. God must feel a little foolish. He preserved the whole Old Testament as a light to man but streiff said he only need Isaiah. That last bit was sarcasm in case anyone missed it.

    • westcoastpatriette

      We did lose her…Melody, that is, from RedState, but thank God I have her email and we can still be friends.

      I was shocked, too. Mainly by streiff’s strident mocking and condemning of anyone who isn’t Catholic. I thought he would value the friendship of the many of us here who are non-Catholic Christians more than his words conveyed, but I was wrong. I chose to stay out of it for the most part but woke up feeling sad to have lost Melody here.

      • kipling

        I came late to the thread and was surprised by how it turned. I joined the fight but was probably too late to even be read by others. When you talk to Melody, give her my regards and tell her she will be missed. She was/is a good grassroots activist. I am sorry that the arrogance and highhandedness displayed yesterday was too much. I am sure she will continue to do well. I am proud of her standing up for her faith. I am sure God is as well.

        • westcoastpatriette

          Will do. nt

          • PowerToThePeople

            Pass this on to her, she is valuable to us and to our side. You never let another person’s foolishness run you off. You stand up to it or ignore it, or join my dark side. Tell her she is still invited to join….and come on back.

          • westcoastpatriette

            Done. nt

          • funwithknives

            Double-Dittos from the Great Lakes State.
            It’s hard enough to make aquaintances and/or friends, and then in an instant to just lose them.
            Mel makes me think and really, I can’t think of a higher compliment, especially given that I am somewhat on the fence regarding organized religions.
            I’ll probably get it figured out, just slightly before the big dirt nap, with the luck I’ve had in the last 15 years or so.
            ‘Mon back, Melody.

          • westcoastpatriette

            I asked her to come by until this thread is dead so she can hear from everyone who wants to speak to her. Thanks, fwk.

          • lineholder

            She’s still on our side, PTTP. Very much so. Even if she doesn’t spend much time posting at RS any more. Mel’s moved into the “activist” category in Alabama.

        • westcoastpatriette

          I passed on your sentiments re: Melody (just told her to read our discussion here), and she asked me to extend her appreciation and thanks to you for your kind words. So, on Mel’s behalf, thank you. :) )

          • Finrod

            A number of former RedState posters still post on Moe Lane’s blog, fwiw.

          • Viet71

            Please tell Melody I always enjoyed her posts and hope she comes back.

          • plumely

            I concur. A very thoughtful and sincere member and I am sorry she got run off. I could understand if someone wanted to run the likes of me off, but not her.

      • Finrod

        Ouch. I think I’m glad I missed that thread. I’ve seen streiff trash non-Catholic Christians before and wondered how he was able to get away with it. Though, I’ve seen him trash fiscal conservatism (he claims it doesn’t exist) in much the same way, too.

      • cbartlett

        I missed this exchange as well. (Wonder if it has something to do with that editing that pushes certain diaries business correlated with the time I was able to finally log on yesterday?) Sorry to see Melody go also – she always adds good thoughts to discussions. I went back and looked at that thread and one of the best things she added was a link to Apologetics Press. I would HIGHLY recommend it to anyone interested in the subject. It is an awesome organization – I have subscribed to their newsletter for more than 30 years. They have volumes and volumes of extremely intellectual data on the scientific backing of EVERYTHING in the Bible. They produce wonderful books to help de-educate children and teens on the evolution stuff that they get in the public school system. They have excellent writings containing scientific reasons for the earth to be 5000-6000 years old (not millions), how dinosaurs were actually created by God – at the same time as man – and the very scientific reasons why a global flood (Noah) would have made them extinct. Plus much, much more very Biblical based studies. Check it out!

        • westcoastpatriette

          Good morning, cbartlett. Agree totally about Apologetics Press. One of the reasons I will miss Melody so much is because she is nothing less than brilliant, IMO, and she is one of the most effective conservative activists at RedState. She is involved with one of the most savvy Tea Party groups in Alabama and I learned so much from her since I’ve been here She is just a fine human being all the way around.

          As far as the unfortunate incident that led to her departure, I have almost never (went through a brief period in my early twenties where I questioned the “Jesus is the only way to salvation” teaching but it lasted about two weeks) had any doubts about the veracity of scripture from cover to cover and I am not a good person to try to help doubters. To me, it is as natural and obvious as breathing that every word is true and if there appear to be contradictions, the problem is in the interpreter but not the scripture themselves. I was shocked to hear that Catholics (at least streiff and O’Reilly) don’t think the OT is literal…never heard that before. Don’t see how anyone could interpret the new without the old. I mean, after all, the only thing Jesus taught from and quoted constantly when he walked the earth was the old.

          Have a great day.

    • eltuba

      I was looking forward to reading “The Bible” posts. I have an unusual work schedule and hadn’t seen any episodes yet. I was so disappointed that the thread degenerated into a debate on religious doctrine (spurred on by a moderator no less!). As a result, a nice person with a pleasantly euphonious name (two dactyls, just like Malachi Mulligan) decides to leave the forum. I think it may be time for the RS powers that be to establish rules regarding debate among members regarding their personal religious beliefs.

      • westcoastpatriette

        Rule number eight in the Posting Rules does pretty much cover it, so I suppose we all got a little out of hand. It was a pertinent discussion to the diary, though. At least initially.

      • lineholder

        When I posted the diary, I was hoping that it would become a positive experience for both readers and participants. Then I had family come in from another state, very unexpectedly. I didn’t get to invest the time in the diary that I had hoped to. And it just disintegrated from there.

        Should I try again this coming weekend?

        • eltuba

          Why not..there are a lot of smart people here and I’m curious as to how a commercial production of Bible stories is received and evaluated.

  • irishgirl

    Nice diary. And it is why we should be praying for Revival.

    • westcoastpatriette

      Amen.

  • Bill S

    I think you’ll find this interesting:

    http://www.crisismagazine.com/2012/faith-and-freedom-why-liberty-requires-christianity

    Just ran across it this morning. It’ll make our libertarian friends squirm.

    • kipling

      Excellent article. I actually make several of those points in a lecture I give on the 1920s in the United States. It makes for some good discussion.

    • westcoastpatriette

      Whoa. That was good. It seems many others are pondering these same realities. I hope we get it right soon.

    • GremlinJones

      “In contrast to the atheists’ philosophical acceptance of slavery, the insistence of Christians that we are all equal and that we all possess freewill can be seen as truly liberating.”

      What now? Atheists believe in slavery? Christians believe we are all equal (except the gays)?

      • lineholder

        Yet the comment you’ve ridiculed is very much so true, Gremlin. And the context in the article relates the scope of behaviors that a person chooses to engage in. People can (and very often do) become bound (as a slave would become bound) to sinful behaviors. Choosing of their own accord to forsake those sinful behaviors frees them from that bondage.

        For those who believe there is reward in resisting temptations, and strive to resist the temptation, allurement, enticement, etc. of sinful desires, freedom from that bondage to sinful behaviors can become a reality in their lives.

        Atheist don’t even believe there is a God, much less to believe by faith that reward for succeeding in resisting temptations exist. So, by lack of faith, they accept slavery.

  • midwestconservative

    You can be socially conservative and a libertarian minded conservative; it just depends on how you want to fight our social decline, do you want to do that with the government in particular the Feds, or do you want to use church groups and shelters and seminars, and if you do use government limit to the local or state; personally I think relying on the government to fight the culture wars is like using a sword without a hilt, sure you might win some but you’ll cut your hands while doing so
    passing laws to enforce behavior will only anger people who don’t agree with you and right now that is a majority; the key is to get a majority to agree with you , the best way to do that is through social action not government

    • westcoastpatriette

      I like to think that most of the reliance on government to fight the culture wars from the conservative perspective is defensive in nature as opposed to offensive — at least at this juncture of American history.

      Most conservatives could care less what homosexuals do in their personal lives including calling their same-sex relationships marriages. But you would have to be stupid and blind not to see where this will lead if the government declares homosexuality and homosexual marriages a protected class — leaving those of us who disagree to all kinds of diabolical persecution and punishment for refusing to recognize it as such.

      And stopping the state sanction of infanticide in the womb would be considered a noble effort by any decent human being, I would think.

      • Finrod

        One exception to your defensive vs. offensive is the War on Drugs, which has been on the offensive for decades now.

      • midwestconservative

        Again I made the distinction that pro-life issues are different from what I consider “enforcing behavior” , the rights of the unborn should be protected at all cost, neither am I advocating surrendering on the marriage issue
        However conservatives can’t let same-sex marriage break the bank
        If we lose that fight we have to get back up and fight another day
        I’m afraid that social conservatives will stop fighting if they lose just like they almost discontinued political participation after the failure of prohibition
        also part of it is the rhetoric battle, the focus should be on convincing people to agree with us, which the church and social movements are better suited to do,
        We are doing that on pro-life as most people think abortion is unethical, however most think it should be legal ( as moronic as that is)
        We are however losing the fight against same-sex marriage, and legislation won’t stop that better messaging will,

    • gentlecynic

      Well I’m not particularly socially conservative … but I agree with you here. Whether you socially liberal or conservative, the best way to change the world is through personal action and not through government mandate.

  • midwestconservative

    Keep in mind I consider the the rights of the unborn and the war against abortion to be a separate issue it does not fall under what I consider to be “enforcing behavior”

  • GremlinJones

    “And yet, the more ground the God-haters take in the various power structures in the culture, the more miserable America and life in America becomes. ”

    What do you mean by this? What exactly is becoming more miserable? And what on earth does the regulation of soda size have to do with religion?

    • kipling

      I highly recommend you read the link Bill S. posted below. It is a good read and ties a lot of the anti-freedom stuff together with basic principles.

    • westcoastpatriette

      If you are unable to figure out the answer to your questions by reading my diary, I have nothing more to say about it.

      • GremlinJones

        I read the diary. I am intelligent. My questions stand. I’m just asking you to explain your assertions.

        • PowerToThePeople

          There is serious doubt as to your statement of intelligence. You may want to face reality on that.

        • timmcg

          It has something to do with being certified in the profession of Outrage.

          If you are not living in a constant state of outrage, you either aren’t reading enough political blogs or listening to enough talk radio.

          Instead you are focused on the wrong things – your family, your church, your profession – and feel pretty good about them, you are missing the bigger picture. More outrage will set you free.

          If you think life in America is great and in the entire history of the world, in every country on earth, there is nowhere else would you want to live than here, now, clearly you aren’t getting enough outrage in your diet.

          Now, some would say there is no such thing as too much outrage over to little, but I find that whole thinking outrageous.

          Remember, there is nothing more important in your life than what politicians in DC say and do. Don’t forget that.

          :)

    • Jim_Riggs

      What’s wrong with you? If you’re not miserable then you don’t love God.

      • lineholder

        Interesting interpretation, but…no, that isn’t it.

        In a society that is Godly, moral standards tend to be higher than they are in a society that is Godless. As the moral standards across a society decrease, the people living within that society experience a higher level of misery. No sense of direction or purpose for their lives. Just existing from day to day. Wallowing in even more amoral and immoral behaviors to try to avoid that ever-increasing sense of misery.

        Downward spiral ultimately resulting in the collapse of that society.

        See history of Rome for classic example.

        • Jim_Riggs

          I don’t believe that Godless societies exist. Just because someone doesn’t approve of how others relate to God doesn’t mean they don’t.

          • Jim_Riggs

            I also don’t believe that God haters exist.

          • Bill S

            Actually, I have a facebook friend who is definitely a God hater…and today he’s a pope-hater. Pretty crazy. As rabid of an atheist that I’ve ever seen.

          • Jim_Riggs

            You can’t hate God if you don’t believe in him.

          • kipling

            I think you are quite right in that regards. Which is why I do not believe a true atheist exists.

          • kipling

            I recommend you take a stroll through the faculty center at any university or listen to 8 out of 10 college professors rail against the backward Christians who hinder our progress. I know professors who actively seek out Christians so they can destroy their faith and mock them in front of their peers. I have seen more hateful signs on faculty doors and more hate speech in classrooms than you will ever see directed at liberals. I find it ironic that they get so mad at something they claim does not exist.

          • lineholder

            Just because you don’t believe it doesn’t mean it isn’t true. There’s plenty of evidence down through the course of human history that substantiates a causal-relationship between the emphasis placed on living a Godly life within a society and the status of the society as a whole.

          • Jim_Riggs

            The way I see it the world would be more Godly if everyone would quit worrying about everyone else and just minded their own damn business.

          • lineholder

            Why would it be that way? Don’t you believe that evil exists? Don’t you believe that human beings can be corrupted by things that are of evil?

            If nothing else, those of us strive to follow Godly precepts serve a positive purpose in society be generating an awareness of what our society becomes if moral and ethical standards are not upheld.

            Irritating we may be, but we do have a positive role to play in modern day society.

          • Jim_Riggs

            I don’t believe that evil exists on its own. It only exists if we choose to let it and therefore it is in all of us. The same goes for goodness, or what you may be referring to as being Godly. I see much more goodness in people than evil and by extension in society as a whole. If you’re looking for evil I suppose you can always find it.

          • lineholder

            We aren’t that far apart when it comes to the viewpoint we have about evil. I believe that there are a wide range of qualities human beings can possess, and even more that can be developed over time.

            I don’t fully agree with you on the correlation of good and evil across society, i.e. that there is more good in society than evil. I fall more to the side of believing that if human beings do not have a reason for resisting temptations (beliefs, convictions…something) then they will be enticed and/or seduced by what is of evil. Good people can have the best of intentions but without some motivating factor, they aren’t likely to have the strength of will to resist temptations.

            I also tend to lean more to the line of thought that the character (as in character strengths) of individuals comprise the character of society and therefore play a part in the character of a nation. I love this country of ours and want to see it be of strong character. The part that I play is to develop behaviors that contribute positively to that national character.

            Sounds fanciful, perhaps, but it does provide a positive incentive, both on a religious basis and on societal basis, to make sure I exercise self-control over behaviors that really wouldn’t be of much benefit to myself or anyone else.

            Strange thing is that I love the challenge of it. And in all of this, I know that striving to succeed in that self-control and self-discipline is what is pleasing to God for me to do.

            And just so you’ll know…I definitely have a sinful nature. Very much so. Temptations galore. I won’t make any bones about that at all. I struggle with them just like any other human being would struggle. Don’t take anything I’ve said to imply differently.

  • Viet71

    wcp,

    The west coast, looking over the pacific. Venice Beach.

    You are anti-gay, which is fine , IMO. Doesn’t matter.

    You write what you believe. That matters to me.

    • westcoastpatriette

      There you go with your bluntness again.

      Are you saying you are here in Venice Beach right now? Or is this some poetic new Viet71 emerging?

      I hate being categorized as “anti-gay.” I don’t think that accurately describes me, but I understand how you would see it that way. Your analytical, black and white view of things sometimes really rubs me the wrong way, you know. But, I guess we’ll just have to “tolerate” one another. :) )

  • gentlecynic

    I find the use of the term “God-haters” to refer to any one who what … believes in “separation of church and state”??? … to be pretty offensive. I think that doctrine is as much about protecting the church from the state as it is protecting the state from the church. You don’t have to be an atheist to recognize the benefit. Re: gay marriage … I’m not sure why we can’t just agree that the State shouldn’t be in the business of defining cultural institutions and move on.

    Sincerely,

    A libertarian wacko “God-heter” I suppose.

    • westcoastpatriette

      Preventing Congress from making any laws with respect to the establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, is the only “doctrine” that I am aware of that addresses the role government should play in religion. It says nothing about “separation of church and state,” a phrase that most use to keep people of faith out of the public square and ultimately out of having any role in the governing of America completely. Surely, you must be able to see how offensive that could be to many.

      With respect to keeping the State out of the business of defining cultural institutions, it’s too late for that. The bus has already left the station. The government of necessity must play a role in marriage since it is a legal construct with legal obligations that affect just about every aspect of life in America.

      • streiff

        and “freedom of religion” is not “freedom from religion”. Accepting one sentence in a letter as legal doctrine makes just as much sense as having our immigration policy set by a few lines of doggerel on the Statue of Liberty.

        • gentlecynic

          Please explain, are you saying you would support a law requiring that everyone go to church … as long as the government doesn’t tell you which church to go to?

          • timmcg

            That’s crazy.

            How about a religious person – can he be openly religious in his public life?

            Do you suppor that?

            Or does he have to keep it hidden in a closet?

          • streiff

            reading comprehension can be your friend if you don’t stick your finger in its eye. That is neither said not implied. But, at the time of the founding of the nation you were fined in most states for not going to church.

          • Jim_Riggs

            I guess that explains the first ten words in the bill of rights.

          • kipling

            Until the 14th Amendment, the Bill of Rights only applied to Congress and the federal government. Notice the first word of the Bill of Rights.

          • streiff

            exactly right. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incorporation_of_the_Bill_of_Rights

      • gentlecynic

        Well I called it a “doctrine” precisely because I agree that there is nothing in the constitution requiring a “separation of church and state”. However as a concept I rather like it. The basic idea is that politics in general should be separate from religion. I should be this way precisely because we are never going to all agree on matters of faith.

    • streiff

      too bad. There is a big internet out there where you can feel welcomed.

      • gentlecynic

        Thanks for being so welcoming and open-minded.

  • plumely

    Ok. Very far from the topic, I know. But, since this is the watercooler, I am going to air my grievances. Why are the two diaries “The Gatheringof Republicans and “Redstate vs Lesser” still visible but yet a diary that I right gets bumped the first day? Several members here found at least one to be highly objectionable and trollish… yet it won’t go away. Frusterating.

    • jimmyg

      It is likely a flaw in the disqus system which allows diary writers to edit their diaries and re-post them, thereby putting them at the top again. It is likely a violation of the spirit, if not the intent of the posting rules to do so. The other explanation is that someone in control of the disqus system at RS is putting certain diaries to the top of the diary list.

      • streiff

        Disqus has nothing to do with diaries.

        • Bill S

          I think the commenting frequency may be driving the sequencing in the “Popular” diary list. Not aware of any connection beyond that, though.

          • lineholder

            Bill, jimmyg’s observation is exactly what takes place, though. If you edit a diary after it’s posted, then it moves that diary to the top of the list.

            And if a person posts two diaries in the same day, it kicks out the first one and keeps the second.

            I don’t know if those two types of events are connected. Maybe the system identifies an edit as a second diary?

          • Bill S

            It’s not Disqus. It’s WordPress. I’ll ask about it.

          • westcoastpatriette

            I thought that too for a while until I discovered that every time you edit a diary, Disqus pops it back up to the top. This leaves us with another quandary for what to do about it. I edit my diaries a lot (perfectionism at work) not to get them popped to the top. OTOH, it could be used for nefarious reasons too, as was the case (I think) with the diaries plumely referenced above.

          • lineholder

            WCP, will you edit this diary, please? See if what we see happening is actually happening? And Bill and streiff can watch from the admin side?

          • westcoastpatriette

            Sure. nt

          • lineholder

            Yes, it moved it to the top of the list. Thanks, WCP.

  • lineholder

    In honor of Bush I, Bushwhacker Boogie video. Story at HA link.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57573817/george-h.w-bush-surprised-by-flash-mob-at-texas-a-m/

    http://hotair.com/archives/2013/03/13/video-the-obligatory-bushwhackin-boogie-flash-mob-salute-to-bush-41/

    • cbartlett

      What a great show! WAY TO GO AGGIES! WHOOP!

  • lineholder

    Ted Cruz speech in Senate vote to defund Obamacare

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbjquai_oqE&feature=youtu.be&t=1s

  • 1stRichard

    These are the same people that cry “Wall of Separation” when you try to mention God in school but ignore it when they teach their religion in our schools. These people…

    http://www.massresistance.org/docs/gen2/13a/PVPA-play-031513/index.html

    • lineholder

      Speaking of religion in schools, 1st Richard….

      http://www.christianpost.com/news/nc-bill-seeks-to-add-bible-classes-to-school-curriculum-91009/

      • 1stRichard

        Got that, I live in South Hadley MA where they want to totally pervert and bastardize traditional religion (yes our local Tea Party shall have a small protest of the above) and we have more then a bill, we had a religious clause in our state constitution.

  • Melody Warbington

    At the risk of hearing “I thought you were gone” or “didn’t you take your ball and leave,” and at wcp’s request, I wanted to drop by and extend my heartfelt thanks for the very kind comments from many of you on this thread and on lineholder’s. If I start mentioning names, I’m sure to leave somebody out, so suffice it to say that I appreciate each and every one of you. I’m humbled that you thought I had something valuable to offer, and I’ve enjoyed our exchanges for the past few years.

    If anyone wants to stay in touch, I’m easy enough to find. @rwm52 on Twitter, my own name on FB, and I spend a little time over at Unified Patriots, The Minority Report Blog and Grumpy Elder, or let me know if you want to email.

    God bless you all.

    • checkmate2012

      You’re a great American Melody and I know how you feel…see you at UP!

  • westcoastpatriette

    For those who missed this message from Melody: http://www.redstate.com/westcoastpatriette/2013/03/12/the-watercooler-the-god-haters-ruling-over-us/#comment-828800711