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It’s Time for Republicans to Win by Losing

In politics, there are both political and policy outcomes, and because of this, you can win by losing and sometimes lose by winning. A defeat or setback that unites you and lays the groundwork for future victory will be one that turns out for the best.

What Obama is attempting is the trifecta of winning on policy, winning on politics, AND dividing the Republicans, causing a long-term setback for Republicans. He is doing it on the favorable terrain for him of higher tax rates for the top income levels aka ‘end the tax cuts for the rich’, the result of ten years of demagoguery by Democrats.

We are seeing two really bad ideas percolate – “Go over the cliff” and “Give them what they want”.

On the first, go over the cliff, treats all Americans as children that need punishment for re-electing Obama “That’ll show them” but why would Republicans want to allow a $4 trillion tax increase to happen? To create leverage somehow that doesn’t exist right now to force Obama to … do what exactly? Go to a compromise that would somehow be better than what we might get now?  Or insist on taxing all Americans more? All or nothing plays right into the Democrat stereotypes, and if Republicans are handmaidens in punishing Americans, surely that will return back to them in the next election. This is doubtful.

The second path to losing double is “Give them everything they want.” That throws away political power and gives the Democrats a monopoly, a disgrace to all who Republicans and anyone who cares about our country. Caving totally will haunt the Republicans, and likely lead to the very divisions that Obama seeks.

There is a third way, that threads the needle and makes Obama pay for overreach – the Pyrric Victory way. The President will get his victory. He has to. The President and the Democrat Senate plus the media mean that they can set certain terms and win the PR war.So the GOP will in the end have to give something and show Obama ‘won’ on the top tax rates. Let him have his top rates on the rich, but for a price. Protect the maximum number of taxpayers and cut the most spending possible. That’s the goal.

The tax cliff is precisely the event that set Republicans back, and the best way forward is simple: Get over it! Protect the taxpayers to the greatest extent possible while cutting spending by as much as possible, do NOT raise the debt ceiling or lock in future spending, and make as much of the Bush tax cuts permanent. This is the key thing: Making Bush tax rates permanent for 99% of Americans on a bipartisan basis is actually a huge win for protecting taxpayers and recovery from the fact that all the Bush tax rates have been ‘temporary’ for 10 years and is at risk. Its an affirmation not of Obama – but of Bush and Republican tax policy.

The way to get there: Unify; acknowledge we won’t get our way, so stop punishing Republicans for daring to pursue the best compromise; extract the most political and policy leverage at this point by limiting the tax increases.

Making even the rates under $250,000 permanent is a win for lower taxes, but we can do better. Plan B was an attempt to do so at $1 million income level; since Obama had previously offered $400k income, any compromise would be in this range or above, raising tax rates on those above that level while leaving rates alone below it. GOP Senators indicated $500k may be the level. Should these Bush tax rates be made permanent, that is $3 trillion in lower taxes than we’d get with expiration of all Bush tax cuts.  We might expect a ‘final cliff deal’ that raises rates above $600,000 income or so. This would raise about $700 billion over 10 years, and the ‘price’ of this should be at least two times that in spending cuts.  If a deal raises taxes on above $500k income only, and cuts spending by $2 trillion, its a deal that works fine. But we won’t get that much spending cuts. A problem? Well, the smaller the deal the better for the GOP, because the more the ‘cut’ (fake or real, mostly fake) the more the tax hikes.

We’ll also need AMT fixed, and the Democrats will want unemployment, maybe payroll tax cut for yet one more year. Congress will do its usual Christmas tree thing.

We need to stop blaming Republicans for failing to do the impossible. We can’t ‘win’. Obama is President and Democrat Senator Reid runs the Senate, and they want their ‘higher rates at the top’ scalp or no deal. No deal means a tax hike that nobody wants and which Rpeublicans are set to be the scapegoat for.  Boehner’s Plan B was the framework for the kind of compromise that Republicans should support: Gives Obama his top rate while minimizing taxpayers that get hurt, and does NOT raise debt ceiling, leaving the leverage on spending available for another day.

The lessons we should have learned by now is: Big deals are bad deals; small deals where the devil is in details that Obama cant campaign on, are deals that help us win on policy. Policy changes that expose the contradictions in Obama’s failed economic program will be the chickens that come home to roost. We need to bit by bit erode Obama’s advantage.

Locking down and making Bush tax rates law for 99% of Americans or more is not a loss, it’s a win for lower taxes. What it further does – and few people notice this – is that once these are locked in, Obama is stuck. He can’t go back to the ‘we need more taxes’ well again, not anytime soon. He’s “won” after all! The only path forward on taxes and spending and deficits is spending reductions and real tax reform.

The real cause of our massive deficits is the large increase in spending, the increase in spending from 2007 to 2011 was $1.3 trillion, leading to our $3.8 trillion budget and over $1.2 trillion deficit. We all know that $70 billion in more revenue barely is 10% of that gap. After a ‘fiscal cliff’ deal is done, this fact will be manifest, plain and evident to all – and there won’t be the ‘tax cuts are to blame’ excuse to hang on them. Why? Obama’s signed them, he got his increases, its his tax levels. He agreed! The debate will then shift to where it ought to shift: Cut the spending. we could easily cut $5 trillion or more from Obama’s spending plans and cut, cap and balance did just that.

Clinton won the PR way in the 1995/1996 budget battle, but GOP won on substance. The GOP needs to learn to win via ‘death by thousand cuts’ always demanding small advantages for each thing Obama wants.

It’s time for Republicans to Win by Losing in Obama’s second term, and it will start with a ‘small deal’ compromise that makes the Bush tax rates permanent for over 99% of taxpayers, limits the tax increase, and removes Obama’s #1 political hammer he uses against Republicans. If we do this right, it will in retrospect be Obama’s high water mark.

 

 

COMMENTS

  • Viet71

    Going over the cliff is about much more than partisan politics.

    The cliff is the result of can-kicking.

    Any outcome now short of a dive will just be another kick.

    Better the dive so that Americans of all stripes can come together. Come together against D.C. In this battle, it’s the elected pols vs. the American People. The American People win by losing by saying, “Let’s jump!” Doing so forces the pols the behave responsibly for the time being, not just kicking the can.

    My guess: Obama, Reid, McConnell, and Boehner will kick the can. My only hope is the rebels in the House.

    • marymargaret

      And so what makes you think that Americans, after losing their jobs and most of what is in their 401K’s and savings, as a result of not coming together for a common sense solution BEFORE the economy goes over the cliff, will be inclined to agree with you on which way to head? You are not very specific about what you mean by “pols to behave responsibily” – my “responsibly” may be the height of foolishness to you. Or do you think that all Americans see this as you do?

      • Viet71

        Your reasoning fails because you disregard the reality of the situation.

        The party in power is the Democrats.

        The Dems will get blamed because they are the party in power.

        • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

          “The party in power is the Democrats. The Dems will get blamed because they are the party in power.”

          The Democrat-media complex that is in power will be blaming the Republicans. Pre-blamed them already. Will post-blame them for years. Nothing new, its how they work.

        • oldmom2

          I doubt that very much…the Dem’s will be out in force denouncing and fully blaming Republican’s if we go over the cliff. I’ve seen the polls and they are brutal for Republicans. The American people are mad as hell at Congress and if the House doesn’t pass something, John Boehner and the Republican’s are going to be the target.

          • commonsenseobserver

            If we want to change the country, our approach cannot be to follow polls and pundits. We must lead it.

          • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

            Newt was brilliant at finding those ’70%’ issues that are on our side and framing the debate on those grounds.
            Well right now Obama-media complex have their own 70% issue, to screw the rich to supposedly reduce the deficit and be ‘fair’.
            To lead the country we’ll have to fight against liberal false narratives – like hammer away that its a spending problem – but keep our wits too.

            The debate should be about “What tax policy is progrowth?” and “How do we get more jobs?” So, yes, lead, but we have to win the argument before we win on policy (and in elections).

      • Viet71

        marymargaret,

        I believe you are a visitor from FDL or Dkos. Welcome. I am not your foe. I seek honest discourse.

    • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

      “In this battle, it’s the elected pols vs. the American People. ”
      hardly. there are both pols and people on 2 sides. Both parties agree that middle-class taxpayers will NOT have their tax
      rates increased. This is NOT ‘kick the can’ this is an affirmative
      political decision.

      The argument is over the top rates. Liberals want more taxes. conservatives dont.

      ” Doing so forces the pols the behave responsibly for the time being” This has it backwards as doing NOTHING is the most ‘kick the can’ answer you can come up with. “We cant agree so lets do what nobody wants.” That’s insane, and what’s worse is those Republicans who either insist, favor or promote that insanity will paint ALL Republicans as ‘to blame’ for going over the cliff – playing EXACTLY the role Obama WANTS you to play!

      So why are you a) playing into Obama’s hands b) handing over more money to the Govt when we should be MINIMIZING what they take? I’ve seen leftists advocate ‘tax em all’ approach – it makes sense for them. Not for us. IMHO anyone who welcomes higher tax rates and higher taxes is not a conservative… and c) the economy WILL be hurt by this and if Obama can blame the GOP, then he gets his trifecta of a win/win/win…

      The OTHER argument is over spending. I am encouraged that a weekend ‘minideal’ will leave the debt ceiling NOT raised, so that the spending argument can be dealt with on other ground more favorable to the Republicans. If we minimize the tax hikes while maximizing the oppty for future spending reductions, that’s good.

      “Any outcome now short of a dive will just be another kick.”
      Going over the cliff on taxes IS a ‘kick the can’ approach. The GOP position has ALWAYS been to make them permanent. So why would you support tax hikes on 100% of Americans and oppose making them permanent for 99.5% of taxpayers?!?!?

  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    The problem with your analysis, is that if we really want to do what is best for the country we go over the cliff. Because, for all of it’s warts it is the only thing that represents even a modest actual reduction in spending. Everything else being contemplated is no reductions at all. At this stage we need to actually start cutting. And the tax increases are also realistic. People have to learn sooner rather that later that they must pay for all that they have demanded from government. So lets roll on over that cliff.

    • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

      Kyle, the error in your analysis is not separate spending from taxes. That plays into liberal hands which calls “austerity” anything that contracts fiscal deficits.

      Spending can change year by year, and there is nothing wrong with the spending reductions about to take place. I agree with you to ‘roll over’ that cliff.

      But on taxes … NO! Taxes become law and are hard to change and thus set us on a path of larger or smaller Govt over many years. Going over the cliff is like giving the forces of big govt a nuclear bomb “here, do what you want with it.” Locking in place most of Bush tax rates – so long as it is permanent – is a victory-by-losing in my analysis, because it will shift the political dynamic WITHOUT CHANGING POLICY as much as we might think, so long as the rates are only changed at the top.

      “And the tax increases are also realistic” – They are NOT realistic. They are as a whole a threat to our economy, $4 T and higher rates for all taxpayper is bad news, so we need to minimize the tax hikes AND remind people that future economic sluggishness is due to whatever we were forced into as “Obama’s tax hikes”.

      As I said, Republicans can make the compromise a setup for wins down the road if we are not foolish enough to go with the ‘cave totally’ or ‘go over cliff’ mistakes.

      Then we turn a mere setback into a rout – for us.

      • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

        The increased taxes are at least as important as the reduced spending. The Bush tax cuts were a big mistake in my opinion as they took millions of lower middle class voters off of the federal income tax completely. This had the effect of giving them no skin in the game while they took in middle class entitlements. It basically turned them into Democrats overnight. People must be brought back into realty. They must be shown that you have to pay for this orgy of spending.

        • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

          “The Bush tax cuts were a big mistake in my opinion”

          That is a left-liberal position. The conservative position is that minimizing tax rates and tax revenues inclines towards smaller Government. After the Bush tax cuts we added 6 million jobs and the capital gains rate cuts even paid for themselves. The REAL mistake has not been too little in taxes but too much in spending.

          “This had the effect of giving them no skin in the game while they took in middle class entitlements.”

          Valid point. But we dont fix this by being the tax collectors for Obama’s welfare state.

          “They must be shown that you have to pay for this orgy of spending.”

          Much better plan than feeding Obama’s welfare state: STOP the orgy of spending. Save as many taxpayers as possible and then fight on the ground to limit spending….

          • 6eorge Jetson

            So where is this path to smaller government that we’re on?
            .
            The statists have over half the population clamoring for other people’s money with no contributions from themselves?
            .
            If we merely increase the slope of the tax rate versus income level, the deficit will be barely dented. What do you think happens next? The Dems come back for another increase in the slope. Why wouldn’t they when Republicans cave every time.
            .
            Do you want more free-stuffers voting in future elections?

          • Bill S

            That ship done sailed. By raising their taxes and exacerbating the blame, it just gets worse. The way to change their minds is to help them understand why free stuff isn’t a sustainable path. Jacking up their taxes (with the inevitable blame to the GOP) just raises the possibility of losing the next election even worse than the previous one and increasing the pace at which the nanny state grows.

            We will never, ever win until we change the mindset of this country. Raising their taxes won’t do it – and by explicitly supporting “taking the dive”, that’s exactly what we are doing. We transform ourselves into the “Tax Everyone” party. And the Norquists of the world have a field day in chopping off their noses to spite their faces.

          • 6eorge Jetson

            “We will never, ever win until we change the mindset of this country.”
            .
            On that we agree.

    • Bill S

      The broken AMT formula is “realistic”? The pot has gone to your head.

      • PowerToThePeople

        Too funny and most likely too true.

        • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

          No, it is not true, but just like Bill, you love to put your head in the sand and just attack others instead of offering any real solutions.

          • PowerToThePeople

            Don’t get mad at me dinky, just laughed at a comment that was quite funny. If pot is not the reason you are the way you are, then that is something you must work on. People can only make assumptions from examples, hence why you are the pot head.

      • http://conservatisthandbook.blogspot.com cjd87

        Actually, yes it is realistic. We have known about the AMT being broken for how long now? And yet every time it comes up we just patch it, just like everything else in Washington we just kick it down the road in the hopes that “Next time” we will have more leve rage or the will to actually make a hard choice. While the Fiscal cliff isn’t ideal it actually CUTS spending and not just slows the rate of increases in spending. Add to it the fact that the debt ceiling is coming up at the same time is perfect. We allowed this to happen through the people we have elected. I not only want to see us go over the cliff I want the debt ceiling not to be raised. Will it hurt? Absolutely. But stupidity should be painful. And through our elections we have been stupid. Maybe, just maybe, this will make everyone realize just how bad everything has become. Maybe if we force the hard choices we can get some decent results.

        • Bill S

          Allowing the AMT to go unrepaired and to allow taxes to rise on everyone – and then allowing the Democrats to move to our right on “cutting” taxes, we look like supreme ignoramuses.

          The premise of this diary is that we will “win by losing”. I contend that we are going to lose by winning…to us a “win” is going over the cliff. The only result in this is going to be that the GOP looks even more like a bunch of elitists whose only objective was to protect the wealthiest percentage of the population. The correct strategy for this was to cut our losses LONG ago and move forward, even though yes, it would require a tax increase. Now, the only result of this is going to be for the Right to look even more foolish than we already have by allowing the Democrats to take the initiative to “fix” all of the things that break on 12/31, while we undoubtedly continue to bitch about a symbolic tax increase on the top tier.

          What it is time for is to stop, cut our losses, get rid of Boehner and McConnell as worthless strategists and so-called leaders and put someone in place who knows their ass from a hole in the ground and so NEXT time this happens there is a better strategy than lose/lose.

          • Viet71

            Bill S,

            Take the dive.

            No more can kicking.

          • Bill S

            Sure, the GOP can take the dive. Right into the grave. We lost every aspect of the national elections in November. Our public image as a party sucks. The Democrats have snookered us, thanks to the non-leadership of Boehner and McConnell. The only direction we go if the cliff happens is farther and faster down the electoral crapper.

      • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

        A typical reply from you, It is sad that you are so unserious. By the way. I never smoke pot, Unlike you I just am smart enough to see that our present policies are unworkable and failed. .

        We are going to get more taxes, not only is it inevitable, but we have to have them because collectively we just spend to damn much. If the majority of people never feel the pinch then they will keep going along with higher taxes on “the rich” which of course get passed down but they never realize it.
        .
        I say this cliff represents the only chance we have of beginning a little bit of fiscal sanity. Otherwise it will just be more kicking the can down the road.

        • Bill S

          Nice dodge on the AMT and avoiding admitting you were wrong.

  • checkmate2012

    FreedomsT’, I agree with you on not blaming the Reps. for taking a less than ideal deal now since they are boxed in but I’m not so sure this issue will be neatly tucked away after the top rates go up- a win for O that fulfills his campaign promise.
    ~
    “there won’t be the ‘tax cuts are to blame’ excuse to hang on them. Why? Obama’s signed them, he got his increases, its his tax levels. He agreed!”
    ~
    No one knows if there will be a deal and if the top rates will be for over $250K or say $500K. Anything more than $400K, O’s last offer to Boehner, will be just another door for O to open later as the economy sinks (due to O’care, uncertainty and regulations IMO). He’ll say I told you so- that we need more revenue and I wanted rates to rise on $250K! Plus, if a deal is struck this week, we don’t know if it will permanent or temporary.
    ~
    So many ifs, will the House pass a Senate bill? But you’re spot on that big deals are bad. I’m for one bill per subject and no more of the massive bills that no one reads and are stuffed full of nasty surprises. The Farm Bill is a perfect example.

    • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

      The approach now will be to pass it in the Senate first… so for the House it will be take it or not. We cant ‘not’, but maybe can amend. This will be a Reid-McConnell bill made acceptable enough to pass with House GOP support.

      I’d say $500K is a minimum.

      “Anything more than $400K, O’s last offer to Boehner, will be just
      another door for O to open later as the economy sinks (due to O’care,
      uncertainty and regulations IMO).”

      Good! Let Obama whine about MORE TAXES! Obama will have ZERO leverage for higher taxes if we make the rest of Bush tax rates permanent. That’s the point!

      … “He’ll say I told you so- that we need more revenue and I wanted rates to rise on $250K!” …

      And we will reply “There he goes again… all he wants is more and more taxes, but the solution is to simply roll back half of the spending increases from 2007 to 2011 and the deficit can be reduced by more than half!”

      Obama’s greed for taxpayer money will make OUR case. That’s our ‘win-by-losing’.

      • checkmate2012

        I think you’re making alot of assumptions that can’t be assumed at this point, especially that a Senate bill can pass in the House. If the House wouldn’t vote on the $1M deal, I don’t see them voting for a lesser amount, unless it entails huge cuts…and I don’t see that happening this late hour. I do espouse the Reagan doctrine of take what you can now and come back for more later.

        • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

          “I think you’re making alot of assumptions that can’t be assumed at this point, especially that a Senate bill can pass in the House.”

          Part of what McConnell will be insisting on in his negotiations (happening now?!?) is a bill that *can* pass muster with House GOP. House and Senate GOP need to be on the same page. The number $500k has been tweeted/bandied about etc. I hope that’s a floor.

          “If the House wouldn’t vote on the $1M deal, I don’t see them voting for a lesser amount,”

          Plan B went down in flames because Reid and Obama had pre-declared it DOA. People were voting against a tax hike to nowhere. If this was the ‘real deal’ – they would have gotten the votes to pass it.

          I may lose some GOP votes, but the real deal will get Democrat votes. If the House votes it down … what then ??? Pelosi and every House Democrat is for going over the cliff? It didnt hike taxes enough? Dont forget that Democrats too can be attacked in the next election. Do they want to own the cliff? So even if 50 conservative GOPers vote no, 50 Dem votes makes it pass.

          • littlehouse18

            I also thought Plan B gave a free debt ceiling increase as well.

    • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

      “Plus, if a deal is struck this week, we don’t know if it will permanent or temporary.”
      If we pass a bill and Obama signs it that makes most or all Bush tax rates permanent, then they will be locked in place for some time to come.

  • westcoastpatriette

    Nothing is permanent in Washington, Freedoms Truth, and allowing Obama to bully and intimidate to get his way one more time is not good for anyone. To me, you are rationalizing why it would be good for us to let the bully win — and that is not a win for us no matter how you put it. I think we need more aggressive communicators and it would not be that difficult to make clear to the American people why raising taxes is not what is needed.– especially without addressing the out of control spending. I think you are putting way too much emphasis on who is going to be blamed for what and then you convince yourself that we cannot do the right thing because we will be blamed for all of this mess. Americans are not that stupid and it’s time to stop being held hostage by the Dems and the propaganda press and tell the Americans the whole truth which includes that Obama is acting like a deranged teenager demanding that his parents hand over the credit card or else.

    You also do not address the impact that raising taxes on the top 1% will have on the middle class and the economy overall. They are the job creators. We should never use the lefts terminology and refer to them as the rich — they are the most productive Americans that will react to the tax increases by hiring and expanding their businesses less which hurts all of us further. So, when do we stop kowtowing and doing the opposite of what is needed out of fear of what the Dems will say about us? But of course, it takes courage to stand up to a bully. It also takes having a conscience about stealing from the American people to feed a bloated, wasteful, greedy federal government. Doing what is wrong is never right and can never be justified. If we go over the cliff, the sooner everyone will be forced to deal with the reality of the dire mess the idiots in Washington have created. All of them. Not just the Republicans.

    Worrying about hurting the party and the next election and who gets blamed is what has gotten us where we are. Time to stop it and deal with reality.

    • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

      It’s not ‘rationalizing’ its *reality* that Democrats hold the White House, Senate majority and near-parity in the next House ( if Boehner loses 15 votes from his caucus he can be losing votes). Given *that*, it is *reality* that ‘victory’ cannot be defined as “Let’s get 100% of what we want” but “Let’s get 100% of what is POSSIBLE under this political configuration” and “How can we make the most of what we’ve got.”

      “You also do not address the impact that raising taxes on the top 1% will
      have on the middle class and the economy overall.”

      You are free to make a diary on that and I will surely agree. We already know the respective policy differences and in fact ‘lower taxes’ is good ground, but its right now on ground of “99% vs 1%” because of ‘who will pay for the deficit?’ question. It is VITAL we change the political and policy dynamic away from this.

      “when do we stop kowtowing and doing the opposite of what is needed out of fear of what the Dems will say about us?”

      Ummm … WHEN WE START WINNING ENOUGH ELECTIONS TO SET THE AGENDA.

      ‘kowtowing’ – I oppose not propose the ‘cave’ solution, but propose reasonable compromise. This compromise would set us back some, but if done right, less than we might think. Why must we do that? THEY WON THE ELECTION!

      “it takes courage to stand up to a bully” It takes courage to do nothing and raise taxes on all Americans rather than reach a compromise settlement? Courage or folly that will embarrass, hurt and divide us further as we pay the political price for the cliff *AND* end up with a worse policy outcome? Again, I oppose caving, I support letting Obama ‘win’ in a pyrric way – he ‘wins’ but at high cost.

      As for ‘the opposite’ – preserving tax rates for all Americans is ideal solution, but second-best is to preserve it for most Americans. If its more than 99.5% of Americans. “Opposite” = raise taxes on all Americans. Refusal to compromise will send us over the cliff and into higher taxes for all Americans, so that strategy will lead to the opposite outcome of what we want.

      “Time to stop it and deal with reality.” back at ya … Ignoring the fact that Democrats run most of DC and the media is folly. Refusing to make any compromise, leading to further crisis that leads to both political and policy defeat, is folly. Hurting the party in the next election will hurt the nation – that’s folly.

      I urge reason, unity, and the courage to be strong but not brittle. Brittle things shatter.

      • westcoastpatriette

        You are not correct in your folly by saying THEY WON THE ELECTION! That is bull crappy. We won the House and thirty governorships. Obama hardly won a mandate. That is utter crap. That’s like saying we didn’t win everything, so we won nothing. We still have a sizable majority in the House and it comes with a lot of power and responsibility. Going over the cliff is not a permanent solution but a better one than raising rates without any concessions whatsoever. Obama is a dictator tyrant and we need to stand our ground. The Dems will be sweating just as much as we are if we stand our ground, go over the cliff and face the consequences of the whole mess. There is no way the Repubs will take all the blame for it. Everyone will see that it’s all of them who are the problem.

        • commonsenseobserver

          It’s not about blame, for heavens’ sake, it’s about trying to keep tax policy as sane as realistically possible!

          • http://conservatisthandbook.blogspot.com cjd87

            The problem with that theory is that our tax policy hasn’t been “sane” since the day it was proposed. Let everyone feel the pain. It is the only thing in life that truly teaches a meaningful lesson.

          • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

            The problem with that theory is that our tax policy hasn’t been “sane”
            since the day it was proposed. Let everyone feel the pain.”

            The problem with THIS theory is that it serves to enable Obama’s agenda to the MAX. If the GOP is “let everyone feel the pain” and the Dems are “Lets just make the top 1% feel the pain” WHO DO YOU THINK 99% WILL SUPPORT?!?
            This is exactly the mistaken thinking I am trying to correct.

            If you want conservative limited Govt, there is one way: Cut the spending. Dont raise the taxes.

            A deal to minimize the tax increase is better than an across-the-board tax increase.

        • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

          “You are not correct in your folly by saying THEY WON THE ELECTION! That
          is bull crappy. We won the House and thirty governorships.”
          I’m sorry that you are not getting it. Yes, we won lots of Governorships and can advance right-to-work, fiscal responsibility etc. in a number of places. But not the White House and Senate.

          ” Obama hardly won a mandate. That is utter crap.” I never used that word ‘mandate’. He has not a mandate, I agree. But he can veto and even moreso can just make sure anything he doesnt like doesnt get out of the Senate.

          “Going over the cliff is not a permanent solution but a better one than raising rates without any concessions whatsoever”

          I AGAIN has to ask people to separate taxes and spending. This helps the liberals. The spending cliff – go over. The tax cliff – It is literally insane to say that the tax cliff is better than a bill that preserves 99% of tax rates and raises it on 1%. Again, its a strawman to talk of ‘no concessions’, we are talking of pulling Obama off his $1.4 T tax hike to a level less than half of it. Now, it would be one thing to say “we’ll have to go over to get a better deal” (but nobody agrees with that it is contrary to what will actually happen), but to actually claim to be anti-tax and allow the MAXIMUM TAX HIKE to actually be the end result as preferred to some compromise … that is IMHO illogical and insane. I dont think you really mean it, as you are sensibly anti-tax-hikes.

          “The Dems will be sweating just as much as we are if we stand our ground”
          WHAT?!? They get the maximum tax hikes *AND* they get to blame the GOP for economic malaise in 2013 – “Those crazy Republicans.. their antics made the economy sour. But put those crazy Tea Party aunts back in the attic and we’ll get better!” … that’s what they will say.

          Our political advantage lies in giving Obama a public victory but details that favor / limit concessions. Win on AMT, win on capital gains, make every tax rate permanenet, win on estate tax, cut spending, etc. in short, lose on the headline but win on the details.

          “There is no way the Repubs will take all the blame for it”
          Dont underestimate liberal media bias. They’ll try. Polls show its working.

          • westcoastpatriette

            Now you sound just like a troll — making all of the other side’s arguments. It’s all a waste of time as I believe Obama and Reid’s plan is to sabotage every plan because they want to go over the cliff and so we will.

          • leftylurker

            For what it’s worth, FT’s “liberal” arguments are pretty much what I am hearing from my lefty circles.

            As far as I can tell, GOP intransigence, which was very effective over the last 4 years, is running out of steam. You can only use a technique so much before it stops being effective.

          • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

            This is pertinent to your point … the leftwing of the Democrat party is more eager to go over the cliff than anyone:

            “But while Baucus and Landrieu have to worry about
            2014, there’s a camp of liberals who don’t want Reid to budge at all
            unless McConnell caves to virtually all Democratic demands. They argue their party could work its will in the new year and have a much stronger hand to rewrite the Tax Code. Liberal Democrats warn that their party base will be furious at a deal they believe gives away too much either by not raising taxes enough or by caving on spending cuts.

            “I just hope the president doesn’t think he has to give away all this
            stuff,” said Sen. Tom Harkin (D-Iowa). “He’s in a much better position
            after the first of the year than he is now.” “

          • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

            “It’s all a waste of time as I believe Obama and Reid’s plan is to sabotage every plan because they want to go over the cliff”

            Maybe so. But that would make my point that going over the cliff is good for them and not for us. They are not stupid. If going over the cliff was bad for them, they’d come our way more.

            Boehner’s Plan B or other compromises were attempts to bridge the gap. If we fail to bridge that gap, Obama will get his way on worse terms for us, either now or later.

            Nothing I am saying is troll-like, just ‘the way it is’.

    • commonsenseobserver

      It’s not about raising taxes on the most productive, it’s recognizing that we ought to try to keep taxes as low on as much “production” as possible.

      You think Obama cares about public opinion? In any case, going over the cliff is far more preferable to his cause, and he’s probably been plotting to do that for a long time. Undoing the best domestic policy achievement of the Bush administration, for one thing.

  • commonsenseobserver

    First priority is, getting people to stop spewing that “Palin for Speaker/President/Queen” claptrap, we all know she has absolutely as much chance of being Empress Dowager of China or whatever.

    • PowerToThePeople

      This is one of the few times you will hear me respond to you in this manner, but Amen, Amen, Amen.

      She is never going to do anything further in politics, she is done. Best thing she can do is stick to the corny accent, “brilliant” one liners, and watching her daughter on Dancing with the Stars. The Palin for Queen folks worse even than the Newt is god folks.

      But at least both of those camps are still much better than the Ron Paul idiots.

  • Rich

    In case there is any doubt on how this will play out, let’s look to history:

    April 2011 – Spending Bill:
    Government shutdown looms, GOP gets terrible publicity, Bill passes House with help of Democratic votes. TPers get to look good to their constituents but ultimatey are sidelined

    August 2011 – Debt Ceiling

    Government default looms. GOP gets terrible publicity. Bill passes with help of Democratic votes. TPers get to look good to their constituents but ultimatey are sidelined

    February 2012 – Payroll tax cut

    Payroll increases loom. GOP gets terrible publicity. Bill passes with help of Democratic votes. TPers get to look good to their constituents but ultimatey are sidelined

    At every opportunity the intransigent wing of the GOP House has made the GOP brand look incompetent through their unwillingness to entertain compromise and then has been sidelined in any event by a Bill passing that is tailored towards getting Democratic votes as the alternatives. Currently the ‘all-or-nothing’ approach is tending towards the ‘nothing’ side and with Obama no longer seeking re-election I don’t see that changing any time soon.

    • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

      “At every opportunity the intransigent wing of the GOP House has made the
      GOP brand look incompetent through their unwillingness to entertain
      compromise and then has been sidelined in any event by a Bill passing
      that is tailored towards getting Democratic votes as the alternatives.
      Currently the ‘all-or-nothing’ approach is tending towards the ‘nothing’
      side and with Obama no longer seeking re-election I don’t see that
      changing any time soon.”

      BINGO. We need to change the dynamic. Both the TP wing *and* the establishment wing need to soul-search, improve and step up their game:

      1. Unity
      2. Purposeful strategy not to ‘look good’ on an individual level but drive the best bargain for all.
      3. Steel is stronger than glass. why? It bends. glass shatters. The ‘all or nothing’ approach is like having a glass jaw. Be strong, but flex with reality.

      Example of that immaturity is Rep Amish who admitted that he was ok with the bill passing, he just wasnt going to vote for it (Plan B) and then is shocked / surprised when his ‘no’ vote actually mattered. Like he can get a free ride NOT being responsible for what happens in Congress.

      • red_oakster

        IF IF IF the Senate passes something, the House GOP should add a little via an amendment and send it back. What is a little? A slightly better version of the estate tax or a repeal of the Obamacare 3.8% surtax or a maintenance of cap gains at 15%. Ten let Obama r the Senate deep six it.

        • red_oakster

          If however, the Senate does not produce anything, the House in the new Congress should pass three or five or more versions of debt ceiling raises of various durations ( 3 months or 6 months or 1 year) and attach various other pieces to them. These could be tax reform or Medicaid or Social Security. Then Obama and the Senate can decide whether to veto a rise in the debt ceiling and take the responsibility or suck it up and accept the limited government reform which is attached. It’s the impending debt ceiling crunch, not the rhetoric of spending versus taxes which shifts the leverage in favor of e GOP.

          • Rich

            Except it won’t happen like that. What will happen is as follows:

            1. The only debt ceiling Bill that can pass the GOP with sufficient support will be absurdly one-sided and will have no chance of passing the Senate or the President (Bill A)

            2. The Democrats and Obama will reply with a package that pays lip-service to spending reductions but contains provisions which are antithetical to the Tea Party wing of the GOP. (Bill B)

            3. As nothing gets done and the debt ceiling approaches, Boehner will try and pass a limited extension to avoid default and kick the can but will get pulled at the last minute as Democratic unity and TP rebels mean it will not pass.

            4. McConnell/Reid come up with a package that the Senate will pass and the House will pass with substantial Democratic support that is far closer to Bill B than A. House GOP look like unruly children and Democrats and Obama look like they are the responsible adults doing the governing.

            Of course, the House GOP could circumvent this by doing an about-face and passing a Bill that has a chance of bipartisan support, but that would mean potentially facing primary opponents and explaining themselves and so self-interest will likely take precedence and the spiral continues.

            Cynical, moi?

          • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

            Not cynical… Steps 1, 2 and 3 has already happened, with “Plan B” playing the role of the non-starter in #3, and on #4 the news indicates thats what is being cooked up. A Reid-McConnell concoction. I do NOT think it will make House Repubs look bad unless it is so obnoxious it lacks GOP support. It’s up to McConnell to blunt the bill.

          • checkmate2012

            I like Dick Morris’s debt-ceiling plan:

            http://thehill.com/opinion/columnists/dick-morris/273621-phase-in-debt-limit-hikes

            “[...The Republicans should offer to pass a bill now setting a debt limit that rises each quarter pegged to one-third of the revenue growth of the preceding quarter. Thus, two-thirds of all revenue growth — natural or due to tax hikes — would go to deficit reduction.

            Republicans are unwilling to pull the trigger on default by refusing to raise the debt limit. But a bill to allow gradual increases in the debt limit, at a pace slower than revenue growth, need not trigger default. Instead, the president would be forced to prioritize his spending and borrowing so as to avoid default, pay the military and send out Social Security checks. All the rhetorical handles he has to battle an effort to kill the debt-limit increase will be gone in the face of a phased-in debt-limit hike....]“

  • WmCraig

    Let me make it simple. The day after the Bush tax cuts expire, Obama introduces legislation (through a surrogate of course) to enter the era of Obama tax relief, giving everyone under 250,000 a tax cut. Maybe not the same as the bush tax cut, maybe more. He puts in on the table without any spending cuts with the following statement.

    Vote against this Republicans, please the mid terms are only two years away!

    Given this scenario only someone disconnected from reality thinks we have anything to bargain with, except a blanket raising of the borrowing limit. For that, Obama will live with having his face rubbed in Bush tax cuts. So the only option is to give Obama what he wants and make him pay for it with spending controls on how he spends money, not how much. Make him fund school vouchers, free market friendly medicare advantage programs for seniors, and increase military spending.

    They we can say here, everything you want, who is really the party of NO?

  • MiamiDave

    Taxes are only half of the equation here, though. I’ve always believed that low taxes are a central component of keeping government small and spending low – that is, that they are an important means, but not the end in and of themselves. If we are going to reach a compromise with Obama that keeps the taxes permanent for most Americans on the one hand, but continues the cycle of excessive spending and dangerous debt on the other, then it’s hard for me to consider that winning by losing. To me, it just looks like losing. The reason we all rejected Plan B– rightfully– was because it raised taxes on some Americans, but did nothing to stop the spending crisis. I don’t think we should be trading one terrible solution for another terrible solution. I’d also note that our Party has one significant high ground on taxes– in a century, a Government with a GOP house has never passed legislation to raise them. Why are we prepared to surrender that high ground, too?

  • Dave_A

    The biggest ‘BADS’ in this fiscal-cliff stuff, is the continuation of ‘extended unemployment’ and the ‘payroll tax holiday’…

    At this point, I am thinking we SHOULD go over the cliff, just to get rid of that infernal unemployment-extension rubbish….

  • Bill S

    As I went back and read your diary and your comments, I find myself 100% in agreement with you. As I commented earlier, I fear that some of us think it’ll be a “win” for us to go over the cliff, and (as I believe you’re saying), if that’s a “win”, what will soon follow is a big honkin’ loss, for precisely the reasons you’ve noted.