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Amnesty, Border Security, and Conservatism

By: Aaron Gardner (Diary)  |  November 23rd, 2011 at 04:00 PM  | 

RESIZE: AAA

Illegal immigration, and the debate that comes with it, isn’t going anywhere. This became clear in previous debates when Governor Perry came under fire and was reinforced last night when Speaker Gingrich spoke these words:

I don’t see how the — the party that says it’s the party of the family is going to adopt an immigration policy which destroys families that have been here a quarter century. And I’m prepared to take the heat for saying, let’s be humane in enforcing the law without giving them citizenship but by finding a way to create legality so that they are not separated from their families.

This was followed by Governor Perry:

the real issue is securing that border. And this conversation is not ever going to end until we get the border secure. But I do think that there is a way. That after we secure that border that you can have a process in place for individual who are law- abiding citizens who have done only one thing, as Newt says, 25 years ago or whatever that period of time was, that you can put something in place that basically continues to keep those families together.

Somehow Governor Romney, who here and here was voicing approval of some form of amnesty, has some convinced that he represents the hardline on immigration. Not wanting to chase this rabbit, I will note that this is purely a political move by Gov. Romney rather than a principled objection. After all he’s “running for office, for Pete’s sake…”

With this in mind I think it would behoove us to have an honest discussion about what we believe as conservatives and how this should shape our policies.

Before I go to far, I will state unequivocally that I reject blanket amnesty. As well I reject the notion of compassionate conservatism, as conservatism is itself inherently compassionate. That said, I understand the desire of some to add this descriptor since that inherent compassion is sometimes almost impossible to see in the debates that transpire on this complicated subject.

The argument against any form of amnesty, however limited it may be, has been summarized over the years as “enforcement first”. I agree with this, as far as I have understood it to mean stemming the tide of further illegal immigration and securing the border. But, I do not agree with what this simple phrase has morphed into.

I do not think practical, nor in keeping with conservative ideals [such as free trade], the idea of a complete border fence that spans our entire southern border. Additionally, I grow suspicious of those proposing this as an all encompassing solution to the problem of illegal immigration when they do not also require such a fence on our northern border. Furthermore, having established a secure border whatever that might be, I am skeptical that those who are currently against any form of amnesty would then support it in even a limited form. Instead, I believe the goal posts would shift. In fact, I believe that shift has already started to occur.

The calls for increased deportation, which President Obama has actually accelerated, would come under the more acceptable phrasing of enforcing the laws already on the books. I would point out that blind enforcement of those laws and not differentiating between the active criminal illegal immigrant and the passive illegal immigrant searching for that last best hope on earth, could do more to exacerbate, rather than solve, our problems on our southern border.

The questions I find myself asking; Are we, as conservatives, prepared to send a generation that has only known America as their home into a failed nation that is currently, and for the foreseeable future, being held captive by a murderous gang of drug cartels? And if we are, do we really not see that the consequences of such actions could lead not only to their death, which at that point would be the merciful option, but also to lives of enslavement in the service of these same murderous cartels? Further, having provided a captive supply of manpower for the effort, would this not also have the effect of increasing the flow of illegal drugs into America despite our best efforts to control the porous border? And finally, do we not see how this could also increase the desire of those who seek to flee north to again do just that, whether it be legal or not?

I would like to think that we are capable of the task before us, that we can have a realistic idea of what border security would look like and that we could then discriminate between the criminal and those looking for a better life and offer asylum to the latter who have known this as their home all of their lives.

If we choose to hold to the idea that we can simply deport them all, or allow them to self deport as some insist would be the case after securing our border, while ignoring whether the cost of doing so could outweigh the cost of them being here in the first place, I fear we would be guilty of appealing solely to our instinct, conservative though it may be. And as Russell Kirk, one of the modern giants of conservatism said, “A conservatism of instinct must be reinforced by a conservatism of thought and imagination.”

Aaron B. Gardner

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COMMENTS

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  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    Bravo to Newt. Too many are fixated on the word amnesty. There can be many different kinds of amnesty. Newt would legalize many illegals and not call it amnesty. They would not get to vote. That is exactly what I advocated soon after Perry was attacked for in-state tuition. I just don’t have a problem with the word amnesty. Details matter.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    Thanksgiving brother

  • medamorphus

    I appreciate the spirit of your post, however I have to take the postiion of “secure the border, then we can talk”. Until we take that step, everything else is just academic, and there is really no point in discussing all these different contingencies until we in fact, secure the border. There has to be a logical progression, and securing the border is that first step. We remain open to options after that fact, but not until, and not at the expense of securing the border first. If we waiver, we end up in endless debates about step B, C, D… and we lose our focus on the first, and most important step in the whole process, which of course suites the opposition just fine.

  • Aaron Gardner

    I was pretty clear in noting that I want a secure border first.

  • donald_24

    be until Americans realize that politicans of both parties have no real interest in securing the border since they don’t want to cut off the supply of cheap labor? Want to know how to secure the border? It is simple: E-Verify, E-Verify, E-Verify. Unless you shut off the magnet, building a border fence is more of a talking point than actual policy.

  • sayoung80913

    I have a few questions myself. To those candidates who are proposing a fence as THE solution, I ask……uhhhhh,have you ever even BEEN to Texas? How does one fence the grand canyon like areas of the Rio Grande River, I wonder? What do you tell the farmer’s who rely on water for their cattle from both sides? What about eminent domain? It is interesting that the only two candidates NOT advocating for a fence are the two who are actually FROM the area.
    Bachmann,Santorum, Cain and Romney have never been involved in any way with any border state and an immigration policy it is evident. ” BUILD A FENCE” they say, well okay, let’s build a twenty foot fence-that’ll stop those wascals,right? Until some enterprising ,Mexican capitalist goes into business building 25 foot long ladders, then what? Well, then we are back to the same problem and we’ve just WASTED billions of dollars building a useless fence or bridge as the terrain might call into need.
    If the laws in effect aren’t enforced by the FEDERAL government, as mandated by the constitution,well that’s the end of the ball game right there folks. No matter what we do state wise to keep the illegals out, the dems need more base voters so they will circumvent our security to get them. We have to elect a president who not only UNDERSTANDS the need and issues involved with immigration, but has actually DONE all that he/she can to fix the problem in their own state. As far as I can tell, there’s only one of those up there on that stage and his name shore ain’t Ron Paul.
    , If there is a brain cell in our head, we can see that there is no easy answer. We cannot simply round up 12 million people and stick them on buses home. Who would be the lucky person to take the fall when people’s t.v.s start showing sobbing mother’s and father’s being wrenched away from their babies? Think the dems wouldn’t blast shot after shot of that all over the globe? We are going to have to face facts that some path to citizenship will have to be worked up in one form or another. Now,speaking solely for myself, there are only two men up there who capable of this. One ,Newt, actually voted FOR an amnesty bill back in the 80s, one actually spouted the song and dance about securing the border and then when he was the speaker,conveniently forgot all about it. The other,Perry, lives and governs in a border state and lives the nightmare of illegal immigration on a daily basis. He has spent 400 million ,sent Texas Rangers,COUNTLESS ICE AGENTS and done all he possibly can to help his state out-all to little avail because the fed will not let him deport the people his team detains. Their kids have to be fed,housed and schooled BY FEDERAL LAW, and there is little he can do about it until the law is changed. He refuses amnesty point blank,absolutely not, and has re-iterated like a myna bird again and again, that there is little that he or any other person alive can do until the fed does it’s job. he has to deal with the situation that has been handed to him regarding these kids, and he ans=d the state have taken the best avenue available to them within the scope of the law.
    So, out of these two, which one do I think will actually DO what he has promised? Based solely on past record, there is little doubt in my mind that Perry has proven he keeps his word, while Newt,hems and haws,back tracks and uses a thesaurus to spin away past positions in the hope that people will not understand his reasoning-but it shore SOUNDS kinda yankee, ivy league school smart right? Nope,I’ll take Perry still and our tea party out here as wavered little if any over the last months in their support of him too. Newt is not trustworthy,smart and well spoken-yes, but according to the Bible,so is the devil

  • radicalrighty

    Those who who think the USA is gonna ship (truck, fly, railroad, etc) 10+ million folks back across the border may as well believe in Peter Pan, too.

    There has to be a method of providing citizenship to the ones who contribute to society, who WANT to abide by our laws, and at the same time, have a hardline (shoot on sight) policy for the criminals who care nothing for the rule of law.

  • retire05

    and that includes what we do with illegals who have lived most of their lives here.

    But part of that dialog must also include how we got here and how our immigration laws have changed over the last few decades.

    At one point, you could board a ship in your homeland, sail to America, and if you were healthy, even though you had very little to your name, and in some cases, nothing to your name, you were granted entry. If you were sick, you were hopitalized at Ellis Island, and other points of entry, until you were healthy again. The ony restriction I am aware of was place on the Irish where the head of the family had to have the equivalent of $200 in their pockets, placed on the Irish after the massive migration due to the potato famine. Mexicans, and Canadians crossed the borders at will.

    When did our laws change? And why? That should also be part of the discussion. Why do we have quotas for certain countries? Why are some people given asylum due to the problems in their nation, but not places like Mexico, with its cartel problems? Why do we still have the “wet foot, dry foot” policy, when it is obvious it is no longer needed? How are the Mexicans, fleeing a drug war torn nation any different than Cubans who fled Communism?

    I have asked those who are immigration absolutist if they would rather give a Honduran a chance who mans the energy end of a shovel for 8-10 hours a day, putting in an honest day’s work, or continue to support Americans who have numerous children with no baby daddy and are only raising another generation of welfare recipients. Personally, as a Texan, I will take the hard working illegal over the welfare queen any day of the week. At least the hard working illegal is productive.

    I hear people say that illegals are taking our jobs. Then I hear others say that illegals are taking the jobs we are unwilling to do. And I wonder; how many of those unemployed Americans would be willing to use that shovel all day, every day or clean hotel rooms after nasty people stay in them. If the unemployed are willing to do those jobs, why do we have so many unemployed? Is there a caveat attached to the saying that “any job is better than no job at all?”

    I do believe that states need to end the social welfare for people who are not in the U.S. legally, like Obama’s aunt, who has spent years in Massachusetts public housing drawing a welfare check after she was ordered deported. If you come here illegally, understand there is no safety net if you can’t find work.

    We also need to stop equating the term “illegal” with Mexican, when there are currently almost 2,000,000 illegal Chinese in the U.S. There are hundreds of thousands of Mexicans who can track their heritage back to the days before the border states were states, and it is an insult to them to lump them all in with illegals. But yes, we have to decide how to handle those who came here illegally 25-40 years ago, have raised their children in the U.S. to become productive residents and have never been in trouble the whole time they have been here. We also need to tighten up on employers, make E-Verify trustworthy (currently its accuracy rate is 45%), end all social welfare in all states, and deport those who have any criminal record, and that includes DWIs.

    I have a friend whose parents came here illegally. She, and her husband, were the hardest working people I have ever known. She grew up as a migrant farm worker, but she did ironing, took in sewing, laundry and her husband never turned down work no matter how hard it was. They have raised four kids; a career Marine, a teacher, and an Austin police officer. Their youngest is now going to Baylor to be a doctor.

    We must also address the political aspect of those nations, especially nations to our south that hold a Pan-American view of society, instead of an American view of society.

    Perhaps if we, as conservatives, can come up with a solution, we will be a better nation for having done that.

  • Aaron Gardner

    But I will take it as a compliment that you thought he did.

  • paladin1

    diary, Aaron. I have live in Texas all my life; my younger years on our small ranch in West Central Texas. My Texas experience with illegals has been substantial in both the rural and urban spheres. I have to agree with you that this is a situation which cannot be allowed to go on in its current form. Until the border is secured and locked down (which Governor Perry says he can do in one year and I believe he can), it is harmful to the security process to make concrete declarations regarding the fate of the illegals currently here, which might result in an even greater rush to enter illegally if the decision was favorable to those already here. We experienced this during the Reagan amnesty phase and should not propagate that activity again. I completely agree with you regarding your statements regarding thought and imagination; a practical person can never believe that deportation of millions of persons is practical or feasible. Some form of legal recognition and work permit should be a part of the debate, coupled with those having been granted residency status begin to pay all applicable taxes and carry their share fully.

    I fear, though I realize it is not part of the current psyche of many, that the people of the United States are going to eventually reach a point when it is understood that we as a nation, must cut our losses, recoup as much as we can, and NEVER again allow the liberals and the influential to place our national border security and integrity at risk.

    Great diary, very much to the point.

  • avagreen

    The more this is explained to the unknowing, the better!

    I love reading another person’s words explaining what I know to be true on these type issues.

    I’ve tried to post this on other forums. some are receptive, some aren’t.

    ;)

  • dajeeps

    Part of it didn’t make into the quote, but it had to do with rationalizing how folks can come here legally. Maybe Perry has a better idea of how to secure the border than I, but I lived down near San Diego and appear there would be a cost effective way to keep people from just crossing because of the miles upon miles of open space. They are now tunneling under the fence portions out in California, and so that doesn’t seem like an effective way to do it either. I think we find ourselves with a conundrum, similar to drunkenness, drug addiction, etc. We just can’t solve it by outlawing it, and I think the next best thing would be to figure out how to cope with the people who want to come here and do it in an orderly way; and make sure they cannot vote.

  • irishgirl

    I really get weary of people talking about fences, deportation, etc., when they’ve never dealt with the reality. (looking at you, Rep. Bachmann). As a lifelong Texan, I think Gov. Perry has done just about all he can do, which is a helluva lot more then the fed government.

  • Paul Cella

    I sympathetic to your view, though with hesitations.

    My first hesitation springs from my sense that you are overstating the Mexico the Failed State proposition. By many measures, Mexico is very far from a failed state; certainly it is beyond question that innumerable places in the world by comparison make Mexico look like paradise.

    But more subtly, consider that Mexican nationalism may be more vital than American nationalism. Few in Mexico seem crippled by that characteristic guilt of the native son who’s been taught, as so many millions are in America, that his native culture is oppressive and corrupt. The consulates established in hundreds of American cities evidence a boldness in advancing national interest that I can’t help but furtively admire: they don’t give a lick about assimilation to American norms; their business is the assimilation of America to Mexican norms.

    At which point the Failed State of Mexico argument backfires spectacularly. If Mexico is indeed a failed state, why in the world are we tolerating the rapid assimilation of our own Southwest to its culture? The quarantine should be more profound against a truly failed state.

    However, as indicated, I doubt very much that Mexico is anywhere near failed. Moreover, I am convinced that there is much to admire in Mexican culture. I’m infinitely grateful that our immigration problem largely concerns Hispanic Christians rather than (as in Europe) all varieties of Muslims.

    What worries me is the bizarre amalgam of American Leftism and Mexican nationalism that is emerging out of the underclass of cities afflicted by the inequality mass immigration has abetted.

    Back in 2006 we had millions marching under a foreign flag — to demand in militant terms access to the generous welfare benefits, which are offered by the very nation insulted by their sedition. They (or more likely the organizers who passed out the flags) crowned dependency with disloyalty. It was a horrifying picture, and it did incalculable damage to the pro-immigration side.

  • tngal

    He allowed for amnesty. However, his reform was grounded in the belief we would see much tighter security at the border and would also keep a sharp eye on the hiring of undocumenteds.

    And while the amnesty part of the three legged stool was taken care of those other two legs were neglected. Not doing it again. The numbers are staggering. and the reason they are staggering is because people simply stayed. They weren’t ushered out like they should have been, and they saw no moral reason to leave on their own.

    Illegal immigration has become an OWS of sorts. Both grou[s had certain rights. OWS has the right to free speech. Immigrants have the right to work with legal visas. Both groups think America owes them something. But after a while, both groups must move on. Both have negative elements within their groups which are disruptive to our everyday life, safety and health. Governments have allowed both groups too much latitude.

  • sayoung80913

    Paladin? hmmm…Field artillery? my husband once drove those bad boys around before changing his MOS. i have two sisters who live in Arizona and a brother and sister who live in Colorado. We are military and move all over but Texas is our home of record and both of our kids are stationed there. It REALLY grinds my gears for politicians who have never set a foot near the border, to be spouting off ridiculous solutions to problems they clearly do not understand. I know Brewer in Arizona is trying her best and Perry, of course has done all he could, but the gov of Co is just an absolute idiot. There are entire little farm towns like Olathe,Co that have been completely overtaken by illegals. the town is only one street long and nearly all of the signs are written in Spanish. The state built up a bunch of housing for illegals and they have MADA, and programs like that to help them out. You have it made if you live in that town and are an illegal because your housing,food, and in some cases,even electricity are provided for you on behalf of the tax payers of the state. An illegal can walk into the social services office and get food stamps on the spot but not the farmers or Americans that have fallen on hard times. Rape and crime rates are high too and the perps just re cross the border and come back in through another area in another state. It is sad but the governor has no interest in taking the bull by the horns, nor does the disgrace of a senator Bennett. It just drives the point home the difference between a conservative state and a liberal one,the red state does what is must because of the law and the liberal one goes about making the climate so enjoyable for the future voter …er,illegal, that they not only want to stay, but might also bring over others.

  • dajeeps

    I meant that there does NOT appear to be a cost effective way to secure border because of the miles and miles of nothing but open space.

    My trak-pad is really touchy sometimes and does strange things to my sentences.

  • Justin Spagnolo (standardcandle)

    Aaron,

    I couldn’t have said it better myself, and I’m with you 100%. These positions speak volumes about both Perry’s and Newt’s authenticity on the issues as a whole. Precisely because true conservatives are doing just as your diary describes, we’re analyzing the situation and coming up with a conclusion based on reality, and not politics, which provides an opportunity for conservatives to strengthen their broader border security argument, and then work out a solution that is constitutionally based and addresses the utter failure of ignoring the very real problems of illegal immigration and its costs and risks.

    Conservatives have to stop allowing liberals to paint with broad strokes. Republicans also need to stop addressing issues by boiling them down to a single argument, wherein allowing Democrats to leverage a singular counter argument.

  • paladin1

    diary, Aaron. . I have lived in Texas all my life; my younger years on our small ranch in West Central Texas. My Texas experience with illegals has been substantial in both the rural and urban spheres. I have to agree with you that this is a situation which cannot be allowed to go on in its current form. Until the border is secured and locked down (which Governor Perry says he can do in one year and I believe he can), it is harmful to the security process to make concrete declarations regarding the fate of the illegals currently here, which might result in an even greater rush to enter illegally if the decision was favorable to those already here. We experienced this during the Reagan amnesty phase and should not propagate that activity again. I completely agree with you regarding your statements regarding thought and imagination; a practical person can never believe that deportation of millions of persons is practical or feasible. Some form of legal recognition and work permit should be a part of the debate, and it must be coupled with those having been granted residency status beginning to pay all applicable taxes and carry their share fully. Voting status will never be a consideration unless they attain citizenship.

    I fear, though I realize it is not part of the current psyche of many, that the people of the United States are going to eventually reach a point when it is understood that we as a nation, must cut our losses to the illegals already embedded, recoup as much as we can through applicable fees and fines, and NEVER again allow the politicians to place our national border security and integrity at risk for any reason, be it cheap labor, votes, or misplaced compassion.

    Great diary, very much to the point.

  • paladin1

    Sorry!

  • Aaron Gardner

    I will admit that calling the entirety of Mexico a failed state may be a bit hyperbolic, that said, I do believe that the Cartels are controlling large portions of Mexico and reigning down terror on the citizens and the government.

    I will also note that I don’t look at this issue as one that can be solved completely in a bubble. Our entitlement system must be reformed for any gains we do make on immigration and border security to hold in the long run.

    Assimilation is also a worry of mine. Again, this is something that would require even more reforms, such as making English the official language for all government interactions. More so, I believe that assimilation is something that is dependent on our overall culture to produce. The government can have an effect, but our own citizens in their own communities are the ones that will make it happen on the scale that we require.

    I believe that, through discussions like this, we can find a path forward that will assuage both of our concerns and lead to a brighter and more prosperous future for all, both north and south of the border.

    Thank you for your sincere and thoughtful reply.

  • streiff

    you don’t have the liberty to do these sequentially unless you are signing onto the mass deportation of people, some of whom have lived in this country their entire lives.

  • Aaron Gardner

    nt

  • Paul Cella

    if you adopt a “enforcement by attrition” policy, and acknowledge that any sequential “path to citizenship” will have to wait some years at least.

  • wacowboy

    I’ve been wanting to see something about a conservative position on immigration, because I don’t think many of us (conservatives, not necessarily RS’ers) have thought the issue through. I’ll admit for myself that many of the involved issues are complex once you get past securing the border, so a good discussion and debate of everything involved will help us solidify on the issue.

  • Raven

    In a couple years, after most illegals have deported themselves – as we have seen them do from individual states that choose to enforce the law – we can talk about amnesty for those who stuck around and kept their heads down and out of trouble.

    Primarily, I want the leeches and the career criminals gone. But we should even be talking ANY from of amnesty for ANY of the illegals until those first two issues are handled. Border and enforcement of current law.

  • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

    I mean, it was inevitable that we would finally agree on something! :-)

  • Aaron Gardner

    ;)

  • Aaron Gardner

    That doesn’t mean we legislate all facets. I believe that in order to get the piecemeal legislation that we all desire we need to be willing to talk about what comes after.

    If we aren’t willing to discuss what comes after then the stalemate will continue and we really won’t achieve much. And when I say we, I mean those of us who want border security.

  • sethellis

    Your video cuts Romney off too soon. Here is the full text of the quote:

    My own view is, consistent with what you saw in the Lowell Sun, that those people who had come here illegally and are in this country, the 12 million or so that are here illegally, should be able to sign up for permanent residency or citizenship, but they should not be given a special pathway, a special guarantee that all of them get to stay here for the rest of their lives merely by virtue of having come here illegally, and that, I think, is the great flaw in the final bill that came forward from the Senate.

    I think his take is consistent here and during the debate. They can live here legally, but we do not provide a special pathway. They have to go through the legal immigration process like everyone else.

  • retire05

    chalk it up to using a 15 year old computer that loads so slowly that my mental abilities are challenged.

    My laptop is in the shop hopefully being brought to life again since there is all these deadly viruses going around.

  • NeoKong

    Mexico is not a failed state. While it is true they are in a vicious war with the drug cartels that is regional and mainly near the border for the most part they are a very rich country when compared overall to many other countries.
    For example they have a GDP of over a trillion dollars and an annual per capita income of $15,000. They themselves actually have an immigration problem and their laws would be considered very harsh compared to ours.
    As a matter of fact any country would be harsh when compared to us.
    My point being that sending a family of Mexicans home to Mexico is not exactly a death sentence or a life of indentured servitude. The vast majority of Mexicans live in and want to stay in Mexico.
    It’s their home.

    As far a not needing a fence or barrier on the southern border because we do not have one on the northern border is like suggesting that you cannot spray a burning house with water because we are not spraying the neighbor’s house as well. One border has a major problem and one does not. While I am certain that people do sneak in from Canada it in no way compares to the southern border. Mucho problemas down there.

    Also I am not sure I have ever heard anyone of considerable credibility suggest that we could ever “deport them all”.
    I heard Romney and Bachmann strongly disagree with Newt last night but I think that if pressed even they would not take such a harsh position as the logistics of it would be quite impossible nor desirable.
    Americans are generous people and truly like to help other people It’s just that I think they get tired of being played for suckers sometimes. They want to cut off the freebies for the newbies and there is nothing wrong with that. We have to stop making it so damn profitable and easy to sneak in.
    The free health care, instant citizenship for anchor babies and welfare benefits have to stop.
    If we can do that many people will self deport and that does not really have a downside in my opinion because they were a burden to begin with.
    Cheap labor ain’t so cheap.
    We can never get a handle on immigration unless we address those things.

    I do however agree that we have do more than we do now but cannot just treat everyone the same. We do have to deport some people. Maybe even a million or two but it is inescapable that the majority will have to be legalized to some degree.
    The mechanics of that however are another issue.
    I think we all agree that we need to lock down the southern border and start from there.

  • Paul Fallavollita

    Deport them all. We can’t get squeamish about this, because it’s a lifeboat issue…if everyone piles into America, we will sink, and then America will exist no more and that will benefit no one (us or them). Garrett Hardin is a population scientist who has often covered this issue in these terms.

  • Aaron Gardner

    ntnt

  • daemonocracy

    it’s pretty painful to watch conservatives twist themselves into pretzels over this issue defending sub par candidates; reminds me of the GOP behavior just before 2006 when the excuses for Bush were flying on the disastrous early occupation of Iraq, the deficit spending, the creation of the TSA and the support for a Federally Funded prescription drug plan.

    Newt threw out a huge strawman about humanity, 25 years and keeping families together. What is the difference between 25 years of living here illegally and 24 years, why choose one? What about 20 years? 15? 10? How about a 6 year waiting period and a fine a George W Bush wanted? What constitutes family exactly? Aunts, Uncles and cousings included? Wives, husbands, same sex partners? Anchor babies look even more useful now. Fix the Anchor baby loophole, challenge court precedent mandating children of illegals can enroll in our public schools and make English the official language.

    There is nothing wrong with enforcing our laws and sending out storm troopers and jack booted thugs is not part of that enforcement – Self Deportation is very real if given chance. Pass E-Verify and cut social services while securing the border with no questions asked and give the illegals a choice of having their family support them or self deporting back to Mexico. Cut all Federal funds of any kind to Sanctuary Cities who undermine the law. The pro amnesty crowd will never be pleased, these are the same people who oppose Voter I.D. laws while demanding Drivers Licenses for illegals hoping they can cheat the system., they want as many impoverished voters as they can get to offer entitlements to in exchange for electoral victories.

    I wonder what Newt thinks of the laws passed in Arizona, Oklahoma, Alabama and Utah? The Obama DOJ is suing Utah as I type this, will Newt show solidarity with the states who crack down while scolding Sanctuary cities?

    We need to deal with Anchor babies, E-verify, Sanctuary Cities, Social Services going to illegals and the border first. Just like with the budget we need to see the spending cuts first before we even talk about any tax hikes because history proves the Dems will screw us. Take away the Anchor babies, the cheap labor and the social services and you’ll take away the true magnets.

  • oldlady

    address the problem of the millions of illegals who are on the government dole as supported by working, taxpaying American citizens? This was also my question of Gingrich. How does he propose that we handle the millions of illegals who are here receiving welfare, food stamps, rent assistance, free education, free health care, etc??? One assumes that the 25 year resident people to whom Gingrich was referring are, indeed, working to support themselves and their families. I’m waiting to hear how Gingrich would address those who come here to partake in entitlements…..

  • Paul Fallavollita

    Ted Kennedy got the 1965 Immigration Act passed that started this country down the wrong road. The conservative position is to repeal that act.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    They become our friends and neighbors and then years later we up and call them criminals. Well then can we also prosecute the rest of us under laws prohibiting aiding and abetting? The rule of law is more than a written statute. Our actions matter and judged by that, the de facto rule was open borders until at least 911.

  • sethellis

    Your statement that Govenor Romney “was voicing approval of some form of amnesty” is still categorically false. He specifically said that he does not support providing a special pathway.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    smile

  • retire05

    “should be able to sign up for permanent residency, or CITIZENSHIP”

    How is that not amnesty? It is. The problem with Romney is that he did not deal with illegal immigration in his own state, so he has no clue how to deal with it on a national level. I offer you his own record of retaining a lawn service he knew was using illegal Hondurans, instead of turning the company over to ICE which was Romney’s legal responsibility to do, especially as Governor, and Obama’s aunt, AND uncle, both ordered deported and the aunt living in public housing.

    The “special pathway” meme is just a talking point. It has no real validity. There is a process by which ALL immigrants have to follow to gain citizenship.
    Romney, and I suspect you, think that citizenship is the ultimate goal of those who come here illegally. It is NOT. The ultimate goal is to come here and a) find work or b) engage in illegal drug activity. Romney’s plan allows them that ability and Romney’s own personal history shows he has no credibility on this issue.

    And once they are made citizens, no matter what crimes they commit, we can no longer deport them unless their citizenship is revoked and that is no easy matter.

  • acat

    Or so I was told, repeatedly, regarding Perry’s Texas Dream Act requiring applicants to become citizens…

    Mew

  • oldlady

    my question to Mr. Gingrich and yourself is….. what do you propose to do about the millions of illegals who aren’t working and came here specifically to take advantage of our social welfare programs. Do you propose that we leave them in place and let hard working American taxpayers continue to support them and their often numerous children?

  • sayoung80913

    I knew a lady whose son was dating a girl in high school who had absolutely no idea she was even illegal until she tried to get a job and during a background check, it was discovered that her SSN belonged to a long dead person. What do you even say to someone like that? her parents were apparently really hard workers and yet they brke the law in a multitude of ways,fake SSN cards,etc. I blame them and not this girl who had hopes and dreams of college and a career as a lawyer. And yet, I can also see the desperation that some young father might feel to get his family away from a hellish existence n a country where he cannot protect them or provide for them, so he runs to a place where he can. If I am honest with myself , I know that I would do the same. my husband works via the army with lots of people who are from foreign countries,but earn their citizenship through service. To be even given that chance their name has to be selected from a lottery like system in that country. It must be hard to have very few options and yet it is not fair to ask an entire country to support people who were not born here and came over illegally. It’s the eternal Gordonian knot of a dilemma.

  • acat

    This is a complicated issue. Reducing it to a bumper sticker sound bite is worse than useless; it both fogs the underlying issues and drives a wedge between us when what we should be looking for is common ground.

    Mew

  • quill67

    There are many illegals that are bad as the entry below describes, but there are also many illegals that are very good. We can keep the good and get rid of the bad. My experience in Texas suggests that the vast majority of these illegals are very hard working, religous and family oriented. Whole families gather at the park near my parents home to play volleyball in the evenings. I love to fish and I would see fathers and sons fishing. They would gather together for church and worked hard to learn English. They would gather for church as a family. In many ways, they remind me of how Americans used to be (before secularization)

    In short, America would be diminished if some of these people would be forced to leave. Yes there are bad apples and they should be sent home, but don’t send the good ones home with the bad.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    We need people of faith and values that made America great. God knows that the main assimilation problem in America are the descendants of the Mayflower that are liberals that oppose E Pluribus Unum in favor or multiculturalism. And God knows that whites and blacks have aborted needed citizens.

  • retire05

    for all intent and purposes, Mexico is a failed state. Yes, it possesses national wealth (oil) but it is a caste system that has little liberties unless you are part of the hiarchy. It’s police and army, along with most of its politicians, are corrupt. And the drug wars are not simply regional, as they go from its southern border to its northern border with us. When Kiki Camerena was tortured and murdered, his murder lead all the way to the top of Mexico’s government. Nothing has changed.

    Mexico, like all nations to the south of us, hold a Pan-American view of society. Carlos Slim, the richest man in the world, says it all when he said that he does not give to charity because the peons didn’t earn that money, he did. Remember, it was a Spanish speaking nation where liberation theology began.

    Hispanic nations refuse to let go of their caste system, so this breeds distrust for anyone who is part of the “establishment” on the part of the peon. It was a mistake to think that if we moved companies to Mexico, then their economy would grow and the peon class would have an opportunity to remain in Mexico and prosper. It didn’t happen, and it won’t happen until their whole social structure changes.

    The drug wars are a result of busting up the Columbian drug cartels and killing off the king pins. Those cartels already had low level operators running drugs into Mexico and into El Norte. They simply moved from Columbia to Mexico and recruited poor Mexicans to run drugs into the U.S. on already established drug routes. The problem is that when Columbia was cleaned up and Pablo Escobar was killed, our government did not plan for what would happen then. Now we know the answer: Mexican drug cartels that simply take the product from the Columbian growers and move it north. The Mexican territorial drug wars are over the best routes north. There is no reason to think that those territorial wars will not come to us as the routes to the big markets (cities) that are the fastest will be in demand (such as I-10 from San Antonio to Los Angeles). Time is money no matter what business you’re in.

  • snowshooze

    First, as Perry says, secure the border.
    Without that, there is practically no way we can move on to address the illegal immigrants already here.
    After having secured the border though, simply place everyone on notice… you shall report to INS and sign up as an illegal alien immediately, within the next three months and begin the naturalization process, or get registered as a visiting worker..
    After that, if you are discovered you will be deported with no consideration. Out.
    This would get all those that are living and working here in the door, and on the way. There could be no guarantee they would not be deported, but if you guaranteed they absolutely WOULD be deported if discovered after the application period was over, we would have all the ones that were more-or-less citizens anyway.
    But without a border…it is hopeless.

  • aesthete

    Also, why?

    It seems to me that the methods you’d have to use to force businesses to stop paying people “low” wages (i.e., “cheap labor”) would be incredibly burdensome. Additionally, it goes against what conservatives believe regarding employment: no one is *owed* a job by his or her employer, or a certain wage, simply for popping out of a vagina located somewhere in these United States. This is as true for unemployable OWSers with Theater Lighting degrees as it is for construction workers. An employer should not be *forced* to provide a job at a given wage for your pleasure: for all the talk of selfish employers, is there anything more selfish than creating and subscribing to a false sense of patriotism that celebrates cheating a penniless immigrant out of a job using the force of government… so that you can be a burden on your employer and his customers?

  • Aaron Gardner

    But go ahead, keep calling me dishonest. Doesn’t really bother me.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    Hell, FDR’s policies kept food prices high and wages low as Great Depression I rolled on. If Obama could only do fireside chats.

  • retire05

    end all social welfare except for emergency medical care, and I don’t mean for a splinter in the thumb.

    If they cannot find a job, if they cannot work, and have no way of surviving, they will return to the land of their birth because that is what is familiar. But states like California hand out freebies like there is no tomorrow. That has to end.

    Think about it this way; if you’re from Chicago and all your family is there, but you move to California where you can’t find a job, do you stay in California and live under a bridge or do you return to family in Chicago?

    The Mexican Embassy in Dallas has reported an up-tick in applications for Mexicans to return back to Mexico because they can’t find a job here. The problem is that they just can’t return to Mexico if they have an American born child. They have to get permission from Mexico to bring that child back with them. You see, while Mexico screams and yells about the guns going into their country, they do nothing to stop their people from coming here, and then make it difficult for Mexican citizens to return.

    That needs to change. First, we need to acknowledge that Mexico is NOTour friend.

  • aesthete

    (Newt, Perry) indicated anything aside from a desire to secure the borders? Perry has even taken actions to this effect in his state, which indicates that he is not averse to this notion.

    The problem is not with this position: Aaron agrees with you. Heck, I’d say that most of us immigration squishes on RS (Gamecock, myself, Moe) are simpatico.

    The problem is with people who want to “secure the border”… so that no more of those people can come through and dirty our soil. These people are the minority, but they form an unfortunate amount of the logistics of the border security movement, and have proven themselves quite adept at getting good conservatives with sound instincts (but not much introspection) on board with an agenda not of their own.

  • Aaron Gardner

    Makes more sense to me since we also have citizens who are drug addicts and receiving SSDI at fairly young ages dipping into those welfare programs as well.

  • ohiohistorian

    In 2007, Romney supported a path to citizenship, which at least Gingrich steered clear from. But let’s look at it this way, Newt. You said “by finding a way to create legality so that they are not separated from their families.”

    These people generally have 25 years of fake IDs and social security numbers, tax evasion, draft dodging, and possibly many other offenses. Newt didn’t come out for compassion for Bernie Madoff, who had a similar fraud record, did he? After all, Madoff was separated from HIS family.

    The stupid part is that this is the same clown that went and sat on the couch with SanFranNan to talk about being a “believer” in global warming. And packs of idiots still support him?

  • aesthete

    Remind me again why I should be so scared that some one is willing to mow my lawn for real cheap?

  • snowshooze

    If you have to get you peaches out of the trees and to market and you can’t get it done at minimum wage, quit.
    Them peaches will not fly off the trees by themselves for any other grower either. Peaches are going up, or nobody is eating peaches.
    This will be a natural market correction, and I think a small one.
    Plus the labor will be subject to all the taxation that anyone else would be.
    If you can’t pay minimum wage… pick your own peaches, it is a free country.
    I agree. It is a zero net loss so long as it is enforced and even across the entire industry. It is just that few that try to get around paying minimum wage that can come to market at a less than real cost market price, and they will be flushed out..IF OUR GOVERNMENT HONORED it’s obligations… which IS the root cause of this entire problem.

  • satchman3

    or is it because they are doing jobs Americans won’t do? I can’t remember which one it is.

  • bettyqiu

    What a thoughtful comment

  • aesthete

    However, many of the illegals are Guatemalan, El Salvadoran, or come from the southern Mexican states — all of which are or have been categorized as failed states. I would generally agree that the states far to the north are generally not failed, nor is the capital region. However, this is a constantly-changing situation — the southern states did not used to be so lawless, and the situation is escalating in formerly law-abiding regions. If fleeing a stable, if starkly totalitarian, island in the Carribean without one’s papers in orders is considered an appropriate and acceptable response to tyranny, then I don’t see why the same considerations should not apply, within reason and to a lesser extent, to Mexico (especially the parts dominated by the cartels or violence derived from same).

  • snowshooze

    But if you have employees, we have laws.
    As a business owner I am not required to pay myself at all, and there is no unemployment, no Workman’s compensation, nothing. No net.
    Hey, but I don’t have to pay into those fiasco’s either. I am free to starve myself if I wish.
    But my Employees are covered. 100%. And they make me money.
    I am not having any problems with any of it. ( Except Obamacare )
    I wouldn’t even dream of insulting anyone by offering less then $75.00 to mow my lawn. I expect to pay a fair price.
    Once we close the borders and get everyone working on their citizenship, or deported.. only those who underbid a job as a business owner will have anything to worry about. Like me.
    But you learn fast… or get a job.

  • avagreen

    To the 12 million illegals from Mexico that are here and have families, etc.

    Madoff doesn’t even come close to a comparison. His family is still here, living in their home(s), doing OK financially. (red herring). Poor analogy.

    http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-11-08/madoff-family-may-keep-82-million-under-mets-ruling-limit.html

    But at any rate, what plan would you put forth to deport these 12 million?

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    So I think mostly its the latter. Yes, in some localized areas and markets, their is some displacement, but overall, I think America needed the immigrant labor to replace the aborted whites and blacks.

  • westcoastpatriette

    I urge people to get fully informed before they make up their minds one way or the other on how to deal with the millions here illegally is because there are many aspects to the problem that our wonderful public officials fail to tell us (probably because it would only exacerbate the anger Americans feel about the problem if they knew the whole truth.)

    For example, one of the reasons I reject the “we can’t do anything about the problem until the border is sealed” straw man is because only half of the millions of illegals here now sneaked across the border. The other half have overstayed their visas.

    But more importantly, our decisions need to include the fiscal impact of illegal immigration on our communities and the taxpayers pocketbooks and we need to be informed on what level of immigration we can sustain. That would include looking at how our own poor wind up competing with poor, uneducated immigrants in the labor market.

    Our policies need to be based upon what is best for America, not what is best for the millions of people in the world who want to come here. And that’s why I resent politicians putting the burden on us to feel guilty (like Newt tried last night) about doing what is in our best interests and enforcing the laws on the books. At best, it was mere pandering on Newt’s part as I don’t believe he gives a hoot about the welfare of illegal immigrants.

  • leftylurker

    Makes me glad I’ve been lurking here all these years.

    Happy Thanksgiving Aaron and Gamecock!

  • aesthete

    Most immigrants help to create value, both for themselves and others. There is a difference, and if Madoff were thrown in jail for a technicality, then yes: that would have been wrong.

  • sethellis

    The difference here is that Amnesty is a special pathway. What we are saying with Amnesty is that those that broke the law are afforded a special fast track to legal residence. This is a pathway that is not available to those that follow the process from the beginning. What you are in effect saying with Amnesty is that we wouldn’t have let you in if you had applied through the normal immigration system, but since you are already here we’ll put you at the front of the list. That’s just wrong.

    What is the point in having a legal immigration process if we just pass a law to bypass it every 25 years?

  • Bill S

    Are we going to capsize???

    This is a perfect illustration of why Aaron’s diary was needed. There is too much of this hard-core silliness around this issue.

  • snowshooze

    So.. with equal enforcment of the laws… everyone on a flat table…
    Georgia peaches will be picked.
    And then… you will see they aren’t stealing our jobs… we gave them away.
    I saw one instance, one time, in Tule Lake California where I could not get a job because I was not an illegal who would kick back a percentage of my pay to the Foreman. That was in a Potato packing plant there.

  • omegamale

    Why do we have to make these illegal aliens lives easier by giving them some sort of citizenship? They made the choice to live in the shadows when they came here illegally, why is the onus on us?

    There’s all sorts of individuals that have to live off the grid as a result of their decisions: people who owe money to the IRS, owe money for back child support, defaulted student loans, legal judgments against them, skipping bail, etc. Should we rush to make sure these individuals can have some sort of normal life because they thumbed their nose at our laws?

    Once you grant some sort of residency, legislators will be forced to grant them full citizenship. Democrats will immediately push to make sure these illegals aren’t “second class citizens” anymore and are Republicans, always scared to be called racists, going to hold firm? Of course not, they’ll fold, they’ll all be granted full citizenship, and then you’ll have 20 million new Democrat voters with their hands out for Social Security, MediCare, MEdiCaid, food stamps, welfare, government housing, etc. And they’ll be eligible for all of it because they’re now US citizens. And if Republicans try to deny them, they’ll be thrown out because now the illegals have full voting rights.

    The GOP is going to destroy itself chasing after the La Raza vote that’s never going to support them anyway. You can never outbid Democrats on this nonsense. Ask McCain how much his support for amnesty helped him in the 2008 election with Hispanics.

  • skorrent1

    Did not have to have immigration papers, but by the time of the huge “Ellis Island” immigration you refer to there were substantial restrictions. Would-be immigrants had to have a resident sponsor who would certify that there was a job waiting or otherwise that the immigrant would not end up “on the dole”. Those with contageous diseases were refused admission, not cured and admitted. Those on criminal “watch lists” were also rejected, and aliens convicted of crimes were subject to expulsion. Laws requiring periodic registration of aliens’ addresses were not uncommon.

    The “bracero” worker laws and the flood of post WWII “refugees” overwhelmed the ability of the INS to keep track if immigrants.

  • daemonocracy

    they are cheap labor because they are illegals and fly under the radar. Implement E-Verify and sanction businesses who do not comply and you will see less of that cheap labor.

    Tougher measures have worked in Alabama, Arizona and Oklahoma – so apologists can’t play dumb on this one as there is evidence that enforcing the law clearly works.

  • snowshooze

    Are you working?
    Do you have family here?
    Why are you here?
    Are you wanted for crimes in Mexico?
    Will you pledge alligence to the United States of America?
    Do you accept English as your language for all purposes of business and government?
    All the common sense stuff.
    But, first, there actually needs to be a border.
    We can just work with the illegals we have after that.
    Give a drop dead window of time to sign up, or receive guaranteed a one way ticket back to the country you came from with absolutely no exceptions, while granting a period for application for the remainder, again, with no guarantees.
    We can fix the mess, but if the Federal Government doesn’t do the job it was created for… we need to fire them.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    wage? Yes, a spoiled people gave the jobs away because we got to shuffle paper for decades suing each other and re-selling homes.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    underemployment figures. We are in a Great Depression three years in. All the GDP growth is ephemeral paper profits or a few tech based industries.

  • daemonocracy

    They knowingly broke a law. a law was broken. it will continue to be broken unless we respect our own laws and treat all who have broken it and will break it equally. The rule of law still stands even when cowardly politicians dance around it. Illegals deserve no special privileges simply for being here or because you are friends with them; E-Verify and The removal of all social services are a start in enforcing the law on the books.

    - E-Verify/sanctioning of businesses who hire illegal cheap labor
    - Cut off of all social services
    - Fix the anchor baby loophole
    - A Federal challenge to Plyler VS Doe (what a joke of a decision)
    - English declared the official language
    - No citizenship for any illegal or their illegal kids residing here, they have to go back to their country of origin and apply like the rest. I will make an exception for military service, I’m with Gingrich on that one.
    - All illegal inmates shipped back to their country of origin
    - last but not least, secure the border and reform the legal immigration process so skilled workers and future law abiding patriots can enter with no preference to Mexico simply because they have a strong lobby here in our country.

    I believe strongly in self deportation and if you cut the social services and the jobs, then you remove the main magnets and they can choose to have their families support them here or self deport back to where they came from.

    Never give an inch to the pro illegal lobby, they are not to be trusted. That should be obvious considering their motto is “the border crossed us, we didn’t cross it”.

  • Aaron Gardner

    Interesting that you think all illegals would vote in lock step disregarding many aspects of their conservative culture.

    Also interesting that a Romney supporter is so vehemently opposed to any discussion of any path to citizenship even after the border is secure. Well, not interesting so much as ironic.

  • daemonocracy

    I recently watched a dear friend who came here legally from Bulgaria and went through a painstaking process to stay here longer as Visa expired but found no success. He didn’t overstay his Visa, he respected the law, he is back in Bulgaria but still wrestling with the red tape.

    I reserve all my sympathy for those who truly respect the laws of this country and continue to go through the legal process which is in need of reform. Mexico deserves no special treatment because of their proximity.

  • daemonocracy

    I am talking specifically about businesses dancing around immigration law for the sake of cheap labor. We look the other way for cheap labor and cheap votes, what a society we have become.

  • 1stRichard

    Read here

    http://www.redstate.com/1strichard/2011/02/27/the-american-dream/

    Governor Romney was elected for a new direction, if he compromised here and failed why should anyone trust him now, I do not.

  • quill67

    You say God knows and this reminds me: God does not want us to worry about the future. If we do what is right, He will provide. Follow His word and He will provide not just in heaven but here on earth. This is why America became wealthy. Every time we deviated from that path, we have paid a dear price.

  • acat

    “God helps those who help themselves”, see also Aesop’s ants or the Little Red (State) Hen.

    Mew

  • omegamale

    Impoverished people are going to care far more about getting government goodies for them and their families like free healthcare, education, food, Social Security, welfare, housing, etc. then they are about issues like gay marriage or abortion.

    There is a ridiculous conservative fantasy that because illegals are usually Catholic, they’re going to swoon for Republicans. African-Americans are overwhelmingly some version of Evangelical Christians, yet they vote around 95% for Democrats, again, for the goodies.

    In the 2008 election, Hispanic voters went about 70 to 30 for Obama, and that’s with a Republican that supported full blown amnesty. You give the absolute poorest Hispanics voting rights and they’ll break Democrat a minimum of 80-20 against the GOP.

    Do the math in the abstract:
    20 million x 80% =16 million new Democrat voters.
    That’s almost the entire population of Florida. You spread that out, and the entire Southwest goes Blue, including Texas. The GOP will never win the White House again.

    And this is all to chase a handful of votes in the short term that will never materialize.

  • texabama

    The first is to secure the border and the second is to end birthright citizenship. I know of no other country that allows for two non-citizens to give birth to a citizen.

  • goformitt

    Just ain’t no way. Talking about securing the border is talking fantasy. Second, after Reagan’s amnesty, we witnessed s flood of illegal immigration. We will see ten fold that this time.

    Finally – how’s this look? After a decade of Rush et al whipping the GOP base into a frenzy over illegals, we’re supposed to suddenly back track on this?

    Political suicide. Advent of a third party is around the corner. Democrats will control all 3 branches of government for decades.

    Thats all.

  • charm2

    Politicians began vying for the Hispanic vote and refused to enforce our laws and keep our country secure. Reagan gave the first amnesty with the promise of eventual enforcement of our laws. Amnesty happened, enforcement didn’t. The irresponsibility made the situation worse. Businesses wanted cheap labor but the labor had to be procured under the table. Illegal immigrants were encouraged to break laws by both our government and the Mexican government. I doubt they have much respect for this country when our country has encouraged such dishonesty. The claims that American land belongs to Mexico have increased along with the flying of the Mexican flag in America. I sense it is done with a good dose of hostility towards America. It is understandable, yet it is important that we do what is right for the country as a whole and not compound the problem with poor decisions based on guilt or the desire for harsh punishment for illegals. They have been used by both governments. Yes they agreed to being used, but government had the responsibility to do better and failed repeatedly. I want immigrants in this country and I want an orderly process. I also want the selection of immigrants to offer a variety of skills from highly skilled to those less so, and I want them to be self-supporting. Secure the border, kick out the criminals and allow those who have behaved responsibly by working and obeying our laws to stay here and register for legal immigration behind those who have been doing it legally. We can set limits on how many immigrants we will accept from each country. Then use a lottery for how many workers and what skills we still need in various areas of work. The lottery must be set up to encourage legal immigration not reward illegal. Every year a percentage of illegals already here will have an opportunity to become a citizen. Their opportunity depends on them and what the country needs. And of course they will not be allowed to vote until they are legal citizens.

  • Tbone

    Then turn yourself in or admit you are a hypocrite.

    You self righteous types make me want to puke.

  • retire05

    “minimum wage”

    But what if you are not worth minimum wage. What if I have to pay you $7.75/hr but you only produce $5.00/hr worth of production? Should I still have to pay you the $7.75 plus have of your Social Security and Unemployment taxes? How much do you think someone picking peaches are worth?

    How about we abolish minimum wages, which has proven to just make the cost of goods excelerate, and make labor worth whatever the employer and the worker agree it is worth?

  • Tbone

    would have nothing but potatoes and onions and fruit picked green from Chile. How does that sound to ya?

  • acat

    I was guilty of speeding in 9 different States!

    (No, Oklahoma was not one of them!)

    Mew

  • texabama

    Those with the most absolutes are the ones who deal with it the least. Not only is Texas a border state, but Mexican immigrants have been a part of the culture back to the time of the Texas Revolution. Hispanics are such a part of the landscape that you can’t automatically assume that they are illegals. Other than if they are applying for a job or breaking the law how would you know? One of the main reasons I want to see our borders secured is because once this happens then the legal immigrants will be better treated. Because the problem of illegal immigration is so pervasive, millions of legal Hispanics bear the brunt of subtle discrimination.

  • acat

    Specifically, where it bisects the Korean peninsula. That, my dear candi-bot, is one hell of a secure border.

    I suspect something a tad less draconian would be required, but that Rick Perry is dead right, it can’t be done by physical barriers, and it can be done in a year.

    Four words. United. States. Marine. Corps.

    Mew

  • Tbone

    :-)

  • wennejunk

    Too many are still willing to sit and watch TV on unemployment vs. working any job.

  • snowshooze

    You aren’t at gunpoint.
    If you want cheaper peaches… pick them yourself.

  • retire05

    There are an estimated 12-14 million illegals in the U.S. You said “12 million illegals from Mexico.”

    Do you really think that all illegals are from Mexico? They’re not, but your statement shows clearly the image people have of illegals.

    According to the Pew Hispanic Center, about 7 million are from Mexico, almost 2 million are from China. But don’t think your attitude is lost on Hispanic Americans, some who can trace their families back to states like Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California longer than you can trace your heritage here. And making statements like you just did is exactly the very reason that Hispanics, who are basically more suited to the Republican Party, vote Democrat.

    The image of the illegal as someone who just swam the Rio Grand must end. Just as the Irish and the Italians in the U.S. grew in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, Hispanic numbers are growing and if we don’t convince them that we stand for justice, not just radical “round them all up” attitudes, we will never win another election.

  • retire05

    you are going to pay $5.00 for a peach, $7.00 for a head of lettuce, and on and on and on. Are you willing to do that? Are you willing to give up an hour of your pay for just small bag of peaches, because without cheap, unskilled labor, that is exactly what you are going to do.

    Here is a suggestion: go into the public housing projects and convince those able-bodied people living there to pick the peaches. Tell them NO MORE FREE RIDE.

    You want to help end illegal immigration? Lobby to end all public welfare. If people have a choice between working a low paying job or living under a bridge staving to death, you will see just how fast they go to work for any salary. Survival is a wonderful incentive to get up off the couch and get a job.

  • acat

    Look up the phrase “Finally vote your values”, or just go read this.

    “The goodies”, as you put it, are running out. The gravy train is going off the rails, it’s just a matter of how soon, and how violently. If we’ve not managed to reach out, to bridge the gap before then …

    Mew

  • donald_24

    E-Veirfy for anyone who applies for welfare or entitlements.

  • partyof1

    And Arizona. Verifying citizenship of students for starters. Make e-verify manditory. Remove the incentive and you remove the problem. If citizens of other countries know that they can not get a job and can not get free education if they come here, they are not going to come here.

    Politicians who talk about border fences and then keep all the incentives in place or even expand them are not serious about stopping illegal immigration.

  • donald_24

    propose shutting off the magnet that attracts illegals? Unless you turn the magnet off, a fence is useless. Remember, many illegal immigrants come here LEGALLY on Visas, but then overstay their Visas. This idea that illegals all come in through the southern border is simply not true. Countless illegals come in through the arrivals terminal at Newark, JFK, LAX, and nearly every other international airport in the U.S.

  • donald_24

    Turning off the magnet that encourages illegal immigration is 100 times more efficient than building a fence. If you built a fence but don’t shut off the magnet, illegals will still find a way to come here. They will come here on visas and then overstay their visas. They will climb and dig under the border fence. They will swim across the Rio Grande.

  • goformitt

    And deploy our freaking Marines. Yea, thats gonna happen – right. With a new amnesty we’ll have people pouring into our country via boat, plane, donkey and foot.

    The truth is the corporate GOP is starting to see that states are willing and able to deal with illegals. And that scares the crap out of them. Without a third class citizenry to milk for slave wages their profits will suffer.

    Political suicide. Nobody will ever trust anything a politician says again – if they do now.

  • donald_24

    to pick peaches will encourage innovation and lead to the creation of a peach picking machine. Necessity is the mother of innovation.

  • lineholder

    In Aaron’s plea for thought and imagination, wouldn’t that also mean understanding the consequences (intended or unintended) if Conservatives send the wrong kind of message where acceptance of illegal behavior is concerned?

    It isn’t as if we can depend on and rely on those in DC to act as strong, positive leaders where displaying genuine respect for the law is concerned. They’re usually too busy looking for ways to distort it, bend it, bypass it, manipulate it…anything they can do short of blatantly and openly breaking the law, so they justify it in their own minds. We don’t have any leaders on this to speak of, Mike.

    Where our leaders fail, aren’t we the people responsible for ensuring that the rule of law stands solid? Isn’t that part of what we’ve been trying to do for the last few years…to establish Conservatism as a force to be reckoned with that holds those in political office accountable? If we can’t or won’t hold ourselves accountable first…if we can’t be faithful in little, then what reason is there to believe we’ll be faithful in much?

    It’s what our nation was built on…a system of laws to govern us, fairly and justly. Do we want to send a message that this just doesn’t matter any more?

    Yes, I know, the situation has gotten out of hand and there’s a lot to be taken into context where problem-solving is concerned. I just don’t want to see the rule of law end up being the “baby that gets thrown out with the bath water”.

  • quill67

    Working hard is doing right. So, yes, God will help those who help themselves (work hard) And God expects us to not let people do for us what we can do for ourselves. God told us to help the poor but specifically not the lazy. (Even to the point of letting the lazy be hungry)

    This is the problem with socialism, it does not seek to help people do things that they cannot do for themselves, it seeks to provide for everyone. Depriving people of learning how to provide for themselves, but also depriving us of the spiritual growth that we gain when we give of ourselves freely. God specifically does not want us to give out of compulsion. When government taxes, we pay out of compulsion. We are weakened spirtually because we did not give freely of ourselves.

  • goformitt

    We’ve all being taken for a ride by big-money, establishment politics. Played the fools we are. They were willing to pretend until the states started to deal with the problem themselves.

    Now, suddenly all the establishment politicians have gone squishy. Sure, some pretend to be outsiders, like Perry, but they know where their money comes from.

    Corporate America is pulling the political strings here and have for some time. We’re just pawns, fodder even.

  • donald_24

    be forcing employers to provide anyone with a job. The govt. is not telling anyone that they must hire workers to pick peaches. Illegal immigration is a corporate subsidy since it reduces wages. Milton Friedman called the H1-B Visa a corporate subsidy and illegal immigration is no different.

  • nathanalbright

    And as long as you go for him you have no credibility to want insurgent conservative politics.

  • acat

    “Corporate Republicans” ?

    Seriously?

    Mew

  • donald_24

    Romney unintentionally admitted during a debate that he does not care about illegal immigartion when he said “‘I’m Running For Office for Pete’s Sake, I Can’t Have Illegals.”

    Translation: If I was not running for office, illegals would be fine with me.

  • nathanalbright

    …that he seems to think Mittens is the savior for bringing all of those poor oppresssed #OWS types into the Republican fold. I’ve tried to reason with him that Willard “Bain Capital” Romney is not going to appeal to any of the #Occupy A Job people, but he still plays the class warfare card anyway.

  • capitalistpig

    you nailed that right oyt of the park.A fence across the bi-national Falcon Resevoir for one is impractical ,if not darn near impossible.And a fence doesnt prevent tunnels being dug either.As a hispanic conservative that has lived in the border city of El Paso,which is actually part of was is called a bi-national metropolitan area of El Paso-Ciudad Juarez,amnesty is very much against our interests,and to use it as a carrot to dangle in our faces for a vote is insulting.Believe it or not,many people here in El Paso cross into Juarez daily to work.Before the cartels ,we would go to Juarez daily to eat,or shop.ow,thats not even safe anymore.I talk to people from Mexico here daily,and their stories and reasons for being here is 1,the cartels and the corruption .Many of them love Mexico,and are patriotic to their country like we are to America and long for it for their corrupt government to be fixed so they can one day return,many of them,believe it or not hate the fact that they leave family behind to come here,many dont even want to be here.2.Lack of high paying jobs.Again,much of the money earned here in the states gets sent to family in Mexico,which is money we are losing that can be put towards our economy.The wage earned in the fields or landscaping goes along way in Mexico,that being said ,before any kind of amnesty is proposed,why isnt the idea of working with Mexicos government,defeat the cartels,and toss out the corruption that plagues them so that Mexicans can return to a better country not ever mentioned?The corruption in Mexico is why Mexico loving families flee across the border,and I hear this with my own ears by people here from Mexico.Now how we can reform Mexico short of any military or financial intervention is something I havent given much thought over,but then again,neither has anyone else.So right there,we got I hopefully pointed out 2 symptoms of illegal immigration to the U.S.one being the lack of high paying jobs and two,a very corrupt government system.

  • goformitt

    AND corporate democrats. Anyone with a brain should see this country is being run by corporate America and the puppet politicians they own.

  • acat

    Romney is going to have to run against his own history.

    Mew

  • nathanalbright

    n/t

  • snowshooze

    Let the market take care of it, unless you are a Democrat.
    Do you really think I cannot come up with a peachy solution?
    Get the Government out of the Market.
    If you are too cheap to pay full value for a peach, I suggest you steal them from someone else rather than me. I am NOT forcing you to eat them.
    Do not become confused. If it is worth it, I WILL PAY.
    If not, I won’t.
    I don’t need peaches for survival.

  • avagreen

    I hardly think that I’ve pushed any of them into the Democratic party.

    I live in Texas. I was asking the guy from Ohio what his plan was. Ever heard of a Socratic method of questioning.

    Get over yourself.

  • donald_24

    the Obama team put all of the people that Romney laid off in TV ads and blanket swing states with them. That is how Kenendy won in 1994 when he was behid in the polls.

  • snowshooze

    NT

  • goformitt

    I’m re-thinking my support of Romney. I am even starting to wonder if he is the most likely to beat Obama – which was about the only reason I supported him.

    With Newt and Perry gone all squishy on immigration I’m at a loss. The rest of the pack are out of the question for me. I refuse to vote for uninformed people to run this country.

    But more than anything, I’m sick of corporate america corrupting our country, squeezing us all for blood we don’t have left, and now, flooding it with even cheaper labor to shore up their profits while the rest of us suffer.

  • nathanalbright

    ….but it looks ugly today. The mood is foul and the nation looks very deeply divided. In that light I’m looking at someone who can lead the right to victory in a war, both politically and militarily, should it turn into a shooting conflict (and it doesn’t look that far off), not someone who bends endlessly into the wind and lacks core principles.

  • acat

    Those of us with complete brains see things a little differently.

    I am thankful today for my nephew-in-law, who came to this country at a young age – legally – and assimilated, learning the language, busting his butt at several menial jobs, until he saved enough and got enough education to open his own small business… I look forward to seeing him (and my niece, natch) tomorrow.

    Mew

  • avagreen

    affinity for hyperboles.

  • snowshooze

    But if you are too cheap to pony up the money..
    I could care less.
    That has nothing to do with the cost of production, shipping and marketing of any product. That has to do with your perspective on value.
    Did I miss something?
    I can’t MAKE you buy them…

  • nathanalbright

    That is something to be thankful for.

  • snowshooze

    Maybe those lazy Bastards would get off their asses and work.

  • daemonocracy

    When I speed I am at risk of getting a ticket or charged with reckless driving since the law is actively enforced. If only immigration law was enforced just as vigorously as speed traps.

    There is nothing hypocritical about what I said, you just lack the ability to counter in a rational manner. I am not even asking illegals to turn themselves as you suggested I do in your foolish scenario, I am asking for the laws to be enforced.

    So it is self righteous that I want the laws on the books enforced? That I want our national sovereignty respected? That I want measures to be taken to curb the parasitic effect of illegal immigration?

    Here is an idea, all apologists like yourself pay extra in taxes to fund social and educational programs for illegals, as well as any legal fees they pile up. Put your money where your self righteous indignant mouth is.

    The world does not have a right to live and work in America whenever and however they so please..

  • donald_24

    be able to beat Obama if he lost 75% of the elections he ran in? He lost in 1994. He did not run for re-election in 2006 since he knew he would lose. And he lost in the 2008 primary. He only won in 2002. The only reason Romney is not a “career politican” is because he is not very good at winning elections.

  • buckedup

    No avagreen just dint say you loves to exaggerate while tellin’ you to get over yourself. Yes she did!

  • snowshooze

    Last I saw, you were worse than me.

  • acat

    A fence will be about as useless to stop illegals as the Maginot Line was at stopping the Germans or the Great Wall of China was at stopping various nomadic raiders.

    Perry put boots on the ground as Governor of Texas, doing the Federal Governments’ job for them.

    Perry kept Texas from paying attorneys to defend the indefensible policy – given current Federal court findings – of denying in-state tuition. Can’t take the tax money and deny the benefits, y’see.

    I don’t see a whole lot of “corporate” there. The corporatist would, as someone else put it, “want the maintenance contract on that fence”. (got any idea how many holes they’d find to patch?)

    Are you thinking Gardasil, where Perry allegedly sold out for a measly $5k donation? The one where no child received the injections? The one where the Texas opt-out is *simpler* than any of the other States now requiring the vaccination, for both boys and girls? Not credible.

    The TTC? Sorry, not seeing it when both Illinois and Indiana have sold their tollways to foreign investors, and unlike Kelo v. New London, the eminent domain would have benefited the citizenry. (I’ve driven in Dallas and Houston traffic) Not credible.

    Mew

  • snowshooze

    That is the norm, rather than the exception.
    Forget the magnet argument. Secure is secure, no matter how you decide to achieve it.
    I am not advocating the mechanics, but merely the outcome.
    I think you are trying to draw me into a tail chasing contest.
    I am sorrey, I do not have one.

  • avagreen

    nt

  • acat

    in dollars.

    Then, we can discuss it.

    As it is, for all your words, you’re no different that #OWS… a mess of poorly thought out demands and no real plan.

    Mew

  • paladin1

    with you in other posts, goformitt, and am glad to see you are open to moving off Romney. I am also familiar with your concern over Perry and immigration. Governor Perry has not yet stated his position on immigration past the initial phase of securing the border, which I believe he can do. I do not believe he has stated his position on what to do with the illegals already here because he does not believe it is a debate worth having until the spigot is stopped. I support his view in this; it is a waste of time and nothing good will come of decisions made two or more years before the border issue is resolved and the instant circumstances examined. Given the importance of this election to both the nation and the future of conservatism, I beleive Governor Perry is a far more reliable and consistent conservative than Speaker Gingrich. If his immigration policy is the only issue that causes you concern, surely it can be overcome in the face of the necessity to elect the best conservative candidate in the process.

    Aaron Gardner posted this excellent diary on the immigration issue and I believe it, with some of the other in-depth commenters, provides a good explanation for this side of the issue. I do not believe that the bulk of Americans would stand for the nightly video of millions of men,crying women, and children being loaded onto planes and buses to be ripped away from whatever life they have made here, legal or not. I truly believe that we must come around to determining a way to cut our losses as soon as we can by securing the border, providing some form of legal recognition which does not include automatic or fast tracked citizenship, and under no circumstances allows any type of voting rights unless/until the individual has become a citizen by the standard application process. We have been greatly damaged by the politicians on both sides of the isle, one side looking for votes and the other afraid to alienate the big donors who use cheap labor. A stronger E-verify system than that currently debated should be implemented to deal with this facet of the problem.

    Governor Perry and the State of Texas has dealt with this issue and the failure of the Federal government to provide help and solutions to border security has forced us to use unconventional methods which are obviously offensive to a minority of Texans and many from states that do not have this issue. Perry will do what is right and what is in the best interest of the country in this issue.

  • intensity

    Given the current status of the race with Gingrich surging, Cain fading, and Romney still OK, this race will come down to Romney and Gingrich.

    Gingrich is too smart and debates too well to have a freefall at this point. As vacations come up, the rise and falls will be coming to an end.
    And Romney will win NH and be in the race.

    Take your pick.

  • snowshooze

    Think again.
    I do not care if you EVER eat one,
    Especially on my dime.
    Buy your own.

  • goformitt

    Bought and paid for by corporate America. To the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars. I’m beginning to understand that there are no principled politicians. They all say whatever they think will get them elected. And they all promote what ever policies they need to in order to keep their corporate overlords happy.

    Illegal immigration has been allowed to happen for decades, when it could have easily been stopped – just as a few states are showing us now.

    There is a reason no politicians took on this issue – oh, sure, they pretended to in order to keep us voting for them, but it was with a wink and a nudge to their corporate bosses.

    And now that the corporate bosses are starting to see some actual political will working against their slave based profits they have put out the word: “Hey, we not against illegals after all!”

    And we’re all just stupid enough to play along like obedient little puppies. Shame on us.

  • snowshooze

    Those labels fit perfect.

  • lineholder

    I threw out at a friend of mine about three months ago, except that it
    included announcing that border would be secured in X number of months, that all illegal immigrants had to apply for registration of locality (ID #) within that period of time, that they will not be allowed to work for employer or be self-employed (no business license) without verification ID after that time, and that after border was secured, if person did not have application verification number for ID, then they would receive no federal or state assistance of any kind (take away the magnets but let them know in advance that you’re going to do it; if they want to leave, they have until the border security is up and running to skedaddle) Oh, and to all those who have been arrested for higher than misdemeanor, go home now.
    1) pass statute or law
    2) begin work on border (part reality, part sophisticated technology)
    3) re-establish all E-verify functions with employers; they have three months to turn in data on all employees
    4) if employers don’t comply, potential loss of business license, fines, or both
    5) In the meantime, set up application stations
    6) take applications
    7) review all data
    8) match against criminal records
    9) issue ID# to those who are valid; arrest/deport those who aren’t
    10) limited citizens rights, but verification number serves as preliminary application for citizenship
    11) limited number of fully legal citizenship applications accepted per year
    12) if you get arrested for anything higher than a misdemeanor in the meantime, go home.
    13) once person gets ID#, they’re obligated to the laws of this nation, just like the rest of us, including taxes
    14) anyone coming in after that time has to go through the legal process; no more complacency about failing to uphold and enforce the law

    We were just bouncing ideas back and forth, to see if it could be done,

  • daemonocracy

    It’s how much it would save. One look at California and even you should be able to see the disastrous strain illegals put on the economy, education system and health care system.

    Nothing I listed is poorly thought out, and it all works when even pieces of it are put forth in states like Arizona, Oklahoma, and Alabama. Even Utah can’t crack down on criminal illegals as the DOJ is suing them.

    It is clear you are driven by emotion and not rationality. I see Red State has its fair share of liberal concern trolls.

    please tell me specifically what you find so offensive about:

    - E-Verify/sanctioning of businesses who hire illegal cheap labor
    - Cut off all social services
    - Fix the anchor baby loophole
    - A Federal challenge to Plyler VS Doe (what a joke of a decision)
    - English declared the official language
    - No citizenship for any illegal or their illegal kids residing here, they have to go back to their country of origin and apply like the rest. I will make an exception for military service, I

  • acat

    If you want to blame someone for the hiring of illegals, there’s plenty to go around.

    Blame the congresscritters who jacked up the welfare payouts and passed Davis-Bacon, both of which ensure it’s a better deal to not work.

    Blame the executive branch ICE weenies who stopped deporting illegals and shifted to catch-and-release.

    Blame the union leaders who ended Cesar Chavez’ UFW policy of beating the crap out of illegals and instead hire them as “faux strikers”.

    Blame the parents and the “villages” who taught kids that some jobs were beneath them.

    Plenty of blame to go around.

    Mew

  • gekster

    You will have to show me where Perry was bought and paid for by corporate America. To the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars.

    What corperation/s bought and paid for Perry.
    Show me the “hundreds (plural) of millions of dollars.

    You got a cite for that.
    Or are you throwing crap against the wall again.
    Next you’re going to tell me he was bought by the build-a-burgers.

  • acat

    Closing the border is not a problem, nor – if done with boots – would it be particularly costly. It would create jobs, eh? Admittedly, Federal, as in USMC if I had my way, but .. jobs.

    That doesn’t mean I think a blanket D.C. edict on how to handle the problem, other than closing the border, is a good idea.

    Mew

  • goformitt

    Is simple: How do you make people think your serious about illegal immigration when you did nothing to stop it for all the years you were governor of Texas?

    The answer: Use the corporate millions to mount massive PR campaigns designed to fool stupid people – which is apparently almost all of us. Then just drag your feet, as he and pretty much every other politician in the country has been doing for decades.

    Blame it on a lack of federal resources when other states have passed simple laws to accomplish what no border security ever will.

    Nope guys – the BS won’t fool me this time. We’ve just had a big peek behind the curtain. Call it OWS if you want, but truth is, this country is being run to the benefit of the few. And the politicians are doing their bidding.

    We have a serious problem in this country.

    And just let me say, that I am not against immigrants or legal laborers from any country. If there was the political will to do it right, with proper documentation, solid e-verify, random inspections with serious consequences, etc.

    But the big corporations don’t want this. Slave wages and working conditions would be scrutinized, unfair treatment of illegals would go away, etc. Heck, before long they would want to unionize!

  • acat

    Who has the receipt for Rick Perry?

    Mew

  • goformitt

    Who do you think is funding his political action committees? Who o you think is making this the most expensive presidential campaign in history? Who do think pays for the thousands of lobbyists swarming Washington?

    Perry, like EVERY politician is owned.

  • goformitt

    Since corporations (and foreign governments) can now fund politicians secretly? I mean, seriously.

  • acat

    Perry set up a unit of the Texas Rangers to do interdiction on the Rio Grande and Falcon Lake. That’s not “nothing”.

    Texas isn’t Alabama or Arizona, and recognized that they want different solutions. Isn’t that how the States are *supposed* to function?

    As for “the country is run for the benefit of the few”, that’s rather provably false. How many of the millionaires newly minted in the last decade came from old money? Hint: Not many. This is still the land of opportunity.

    Yes, D.C. has been linked far too much to Wall Street .. but you really can’t expect me to believe Mitt’s the answer there.

    Mew

  • acat

    Or, of course, you could admit you’re making {guano} up.

    Mew

  • acat

    Or .. did you just decide to throw {mud} against the wall and see if it stuck?

    Mew

  • tngal

    Just throwin’ the question out there. To me the answer is yes. Either they got here illegally, or got a visa, let it expire and stayed. The point being they are doing something illegal, they knew they were here illegally, yet they continued their masquarade for years, for decades.

    If we except the premise its illegal, then what I’m hearing from Newt and a lot of others here is is “well they’ve been doing it for so long lets just forget it.” (Some argue for a fine or maybe a couple years back taxes.)

    If we go with the premise its a crime, then they are “career” criminals. The punishment is deportation. But some argue because they have done the crime for so long, say 25 years, they should get off with nothing or maybe a small fine.

    The other premise is to, of course, abolish the law entirely and have open borders. Thereby no illegality. Pick your poison, you can’t have it both ways. Career criminals or no illegality.

    Its really an either/or situation and everyone has to face it….its criminal or its not. Once you pick which side of the fence you’re on, the rest comes real easy.

    (And please don’t jump into the misdemeanor/felony arguments. Laws are rules that govern a society. Without them, we end up with OWS’s )

  • goformitt

    In fact, I’m so disgusted tonight that I’m trying to figure out how to change my handle.

    But as for Perry sending the Rangers to the border – This is exactly what I mean by fooling people. He knew when he did it, it would do no good. If you doubt that, take a drive through Texas.

    But it was one of those “bold actions” that signify nothing. Placated voters. A bunch of BS.

    And in my opinion, newly minted millionaires do indeed represent the “few”. Look at the growth in the finance sector and the number of “the few” who operate in it.

    This country is becoming less and less the country of opportunity. Starting to resemble instead the economic disparity of a third world country.

    Materialism fueled with endless media and funded by second mortgages on over-valued homes chasing cheap Chinese crap has kept the masses simple minded and easily led.

  • lineholder

    Illegal behavior is illegal behavior. Our nation was founded in a manner that dictates being governed by the rule of law, not the rule of man. And I believe in it. I don’t like the illegal behavior. I don’t condone it. And I certainly don’t want to see Conservatives of all people act in a way that enables a continuation of that behavior. Just because society may “deem” that it’s “acceptable” doesn’t make it right in a legal context!

    That being said, I have no qualms with the people who genuinely want to become Americans. If they are here for that reason, and they are willing to make a commitment to this country and to the laws of this nation, just like the rest of us make, and to contribute to our society in a positive way, then I welcome them.

    But that’s part of the problem. How many of them who are here genuinely want to become Americans? A lot of the illegal immigrants who came here from south of our border are here not because they choose to be Americans but because they wanted to escape Mexico. They’ve never been required to make a commitment to OUR country. They’ve just lingered on in limbo, in a repetitive continuation of an illegal state of being. That isn’t good for them or for us.

    And then others who are here for a free ride, what with America being the “land of opportunity” and all that. And others are here for other reasons, like the La Raza group. They have their own goals and their own agenda, and it’s contrary to what this nation stands for and was built on.

    I think they should choose where their loyalties truly lie…America or elsewhere. If it’s elsewhere, then they can go home of their own accord or we can drop them off at the nearest border.

    Either way, we need to do some problem-solving and come up with a way that secures our border (reality fence or otherwise) so that illegal behavior isn’t enabled in the future. That part of it is definitely America’s responsibility, not the responsibility of those outside our nation.

  • gekster

    You are talking out your donkey, again, as usual.
    And then you wonder why you have no credibility with anyone.
    You are that maroonic.

  • goformitt

    I’ve been inspired to reconsider my opposition to Obama-care!

    I mean, thinking of all those poor people who had their insurance cancelled when they lost their jobs, got sick and now face financial ruin. And those kids born with pre-existing conditions who can’t get insurance, an the insurance companies making record profits while record numbers of people go uninsured.

    I could go on …

    Since we’re getting weepie about illegal immigrants, might as well get teary-eyed over the uninsured. I mean, seriously. If I were going to do a 180 on a major GOP issue why not choose universal health care?

    Corporate profits?

  • gekster

    You a little jelous that others have more than you.
    And the land of oportunity is being destroyed by Obama and the Democrats,.
    Not the Republicans.
    It is getting aperant that you are more and more clueless.

  • goformitt

    Are you trying to say it ISN’T corporate millions funding politician’s campaigns? Look at the growth of PACs as soon as they became anonymous.

    I’m not going to waste my time trying to convince someone that our billion dollar presidential campaign is funded by corporations and special interests.

    If it isn’t obvious, I can’t help ya.

  • cwilson

    the US agriculture sector is the LEAST mechanized of any developed nation. Everybody else is already using much more mechanization — we don’t, precisely because we DO have an easy source of (wink wink) “cheap’ labor. I’ll leave finding the reference as an exercise for the reader…

  • daemonocracy

    closing the border (yes with boots, it makes no sense to build a fence in the middle of Rio Grande which serves as the Texas border nor do I want private Ranchers having their property seized) is only part of the equation. You’re not following along.

  • daemonocracy

    and I blame all of those people for the things you mentioned.

    Hiring illegals is still breaking the law.

  • tngal

    Thanks lineholder for opining, and can I help it if I agree with you? (tee hee)

  • acat

    Once the border is effectively closed, we can discuss additional steps.

    Discussing them prematurely has, quite reliably, let the Dems (who see in Hispanics a new voting plantation system) wedge apart conservatives and given us no closed border and a lot of bumper-sticker mentality sloganeering instead of actual discussion.

    Thus far, I fail to see how you’re differentiating yourself.

    Mew

  • goformitt

    The fact that politicians campaigns are being supported to the tune of hundreds of millions by secret (and not so secret) corporate donations?

    This is old news acat. But it is a big part of the growing plutocracy we seem to be living in.

    The Washington Posts lays it out pretty clearly:

    New ‘Super Pacs’ bringing millions into campaigns:
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/27/AR2010092706500.html

  • acat

    Seriously.

    Mine, posted here quite some time ago, is for States to levy parallel fines to the Federal ones.

    States that go forth and collect will pay out less in welfare while having lower unemployment rates. No need for a D.C. mandate.

    That, I think, is the main point where we disagree – I do not want a Federal solution, I want to see what the laboratories of democracy work out.

    Mew

  • acat

    Who do you think owns Perry?

    With specifics.

    Who do you think holds his leash?

    Mew

  • acat

    Prove it or retract it.

    Your current goalpost-moving is pathetic.

    Mew

  • gekster

    It is only your speculation and false reasoning.

    And campaign contributions are limited in amount, weather by individual or corporation.

  • onemovoter

    and my bet is that you’ll see his poll numbers come down to the teens in a few weeks. His ego has been getting pretty big too lately and can see it coming out in recent interviews. It will make him make mistakes as well.

    It really is up in the air until the real voting starts. Just like it was in 2008.

  • lineholder

    that Conservatives need to keep in mind that ICE has already issued a memorandum regarding prosecutorial discretion to be used re: which illegal immigrants are pursued and which ones are not by the department’s own criteria, with a portion of that criteria being the immigrant’s association with the Dept of Labor or the NLRB. And given LUR’s reports about the moves that the NLRB has been making of late to speed up access of Unions into the workplace, it really isn’t that much of a jump to consider the possibility that immigrants could be offered protection via the Unions through ICE.

    Details to pertaining to this are here:

    http://www.redstate.com/lineholder/2011/06/26/ice-memo-reference-nlrb-as-immigration-factor/

    So whatever we do, we need to make a wise choice on it from beginning to end, because the implications are far-reaching in more direction than one.

  • goformitt

    Got anything other than name calling? I guess thats were we go when we got nothing else, huh?

    You would probably look more credible yourself if responded to points I’ve made rather than school yard taunts.

  • acat

    Are you saying that the large ethnic Hispanic population (most of whom legally here, some for longer than my family) is a problem?

    Do you have a beef with the large Vietnamese population around Houston?

    Sounds to me like you have a problem with all immigration.

    Mew

  • acat

    We like facts, especially from candi-bots.

    Oh, and on changing your name, if you’re having trouble navigating the “my profile” section, you can always e-mail the contacts page address for help, ask it to be sent to Neil.

    Mew

  • tngal

    unbelievable. I mean, really, if the unions were to fight for the right to be illegal, or undocumented, or criminal, or whatever they’re called this week—surely people would see through this ruse.

    Ok. I’ve got to get to sleep. There’s some work tomorrow involving some heat, some sage a little pepper, and more than enough turkey to go around. I’ll leave it up to your to figure out what I’m involved in.

  • gekster

    Your statement:
    Materialism fueled with endless media and funded by second mortgages on over-valued homes chasing cheap Chinese crap has kept the masses simple minded and easily led.

    Maybe more marxist than socialist.

    And you havn’t made any points, just baseless claims.

    And if I seam to be in a schoolyard, I’m trying to dumb it down so you ‘might’ understand.

  • paladin1

    on this or any other site but here goes. I am a police officer in Texas and work with the problem of illegals every day. My agency requires that we notify ICE any time we arrest anyone suspected of being illegal and we do so multiple times a day. What is the response? We get a detainer on those judged to be worthy of holding by ICE and they pick them up-sometimes. If they don’t get around to it within 48 hours they get processed and released like anyone else and there is nothing we or the state can do about it Even when they do pick them up, I often see them back on the street within days since they are apparently re-released on their promise to show up for a hearing. Fat chance! The feds have let the cities and the states down time after time after time.

    Governor Perry has done everything possible to secure the border within Texas’ ability and authority. The drug murder on Falcon Lake prompted a heavy concentration of state assets there and just within the last two weeks the State Troopers, Feds ,and local county sheriffs’ offices were involved in an operation on the river where a drug gang was attempting to cross and was engaged by the DEA and Troopers/Rangers. The Mexican side engaged the drug couriers with gunfire from a helopicopter and on the ground, pushing them over to our side. Most were contained in the cordon and crossed back into Mexico leaving one dead courier on our side of the river. State game wardens and state troopers here are routinely engaged in operations on the border for both drug interdiction and human smuggling. Governor Perry has seen to it that we have the best tools affordable on our state budget including purchase of a couple of drones for observation. He has deployed our State Guardsmen on the border, the Rangers, and has trained the DPS (state police) in interdiction of illegals. The Governor has seen to it that we catch and interdict as many as possible but he/the state cannot doport anyone. I really do take offense at the statement you made that the Governor is not serious about illegal immigration. I live here and work in this field and I know what he is doing. You are way off base with your lack of knowledge in this area and with your criticism of his efforts.

    Then ther eis your allegation that other states have passed simple laws to deal with the problem. Are you referring to the law in Az. which is tied up in Federal court and the effective part nullified? Or maybe the Alabama law in a state with very few Hispanics with no political influence. Give a look at the list of names of the memebers of the legislature in Texas. You will see quite a few Hispanics and they are only growing. Try passing one of those “simple little laws” here!

    You folks from non-border states without the years of mix between the Hispanic (legal or not) and white populations have no flipping clue and for the first time since I have been posting here, your over-simplified, cavalier attack on Perry has gotten under my skin. I guess you win with that but you are DEAD WRONG about Governor Perry!

    http://www.kens5.com/news/Falcon-Lake-murder–119563894.html
    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/06/10/national/main20070639.shtml

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnV3QY9sO7g&feature=player_detailpage

  • lineholder

    When you get a chance, read the article. It’s the ICE’s position, not my perception. Then tell me what you think, okay?

  • acat

    Cesar Chavez used to go beat up on illegals encroaching on “his” unions’ turf. Have you heard of that kind of thing recently?

    Recently, the Carpenters union – forget which local – got caught hiring illegals to walk picket lines. Talk about doing jobs Americans won’t.

    My point is, unions are now fighting for the rights of the union, they don’t care about the rights of the illegals – or about keeping them out of the country – any more than they care about the rights of their members. Today’s union bosses aren’t about expanding the number of union members, they’re about holding onto the shrinking pool of union jobs. Part of that is looking the other way.

    Mew

  • paladin1

    typos, I was irritated.

  • goformitt

    Is that politicians have been bought. Perry is a politician. Ergo.
    I can’t prove it because corporations, individuals, foreign governments, mafias, etc are now allowed to support campaigns anonymously.

    I can’t prove it, and sorry to say, you can’t disprove it.

    All we know for sure is that there are millions pouring into political campaigns, much of it from anonymous donors. Now I would speculate that those millions are largely coming from corporations and special interests.

    Where do you think its coming from?

  • gekster

    Write a review of what you know about Perry and the border enforcement he has been doing, and submit it to the contact page, in care of Neil Stevens
    for submisson for a diary.
    It seams you have a first hand knowledge of the situation, and it would be great to get it, so to say, from the horses mouth.
    If it is as good as this post, I for one will recco it, as I am sure others will also.
    Something to think about.

  • acat

    for your service, and a happy Thanksgiving to you and yours.

    I’m not in Texas, I’m near Chicago which has its’ own issues with immigrants, but also a long history of successful integration; I see similarities to Chicago’s historical approach and Perry’s approach in Texas.

    I’m not on the front lines like you, but I’ve been very frustrated by the lack of honest debate on the issue from the anti-Perry crowd. Even when presented with facts – and you really should turn your post above into a diary – the replies are mere reiteration of bumper-sticker logic, not serious at all.

    Seriously. You could write a great diary on this subject.

    Mew

  • gekster

    Have you stopped beating you dog.
    I can’t prove it, but you can’t disprove it.
    Both your claim and my claim rest on the same facts.
    There are none, but since it was brought up, both are just as viable.
    It is called ‘throwing crap against the wall’.
    And most will see it for what it is, except the few who believe, like you, that crap against the wall is proof enough.

  • acat

    Thank you for confirming that you’ve got jack and {squat} for facts.

    Of course Perry’s getting donations. So is Romney. So is Newt. So is Obama. So what?

    That doesn’t mean Romney’s corrupt, does it? Newt’s clean, right? I think we can assume, based on Solyndra and Fisker, that Obama is dirty.

    In short, you tried using a broad brush to tar a single candidate you happen to dislike. I am not impressed.

    Mew

  • goformitt

    Stating that a campaign can only be supported by limited contributions is only correct if you very narrowly define “campaign”.

    It is no secret that organizations are commonly formed that support campaigns via anonymous donors giving unlimited amounts.

    Perry’s non-anonymous donors are largely oil companies. Its my guess that his anonymous donors are too. But hey, it could be China for all we know.

    Nothing like giving power to the people. As long as the people are the super rich.

  • acat

    See how that works?

    It is impossible to get money out of politics.
    It is inadvisable to restrict the first amendment.

    Therefore – money is going to be in politics. This is why the Dems spent the last several decades worming their way into Wall Street.

    Mew

  • lineholder

    make a deal with illegal immigrants, i.e. you get us in the door of a business and we’ll put in a good word for you at the NLRB, they’ll do it. And given that the ICE has stipulated that they’ll be using NLRB associations as a source of info regarding who does/does not get reported/deported…there are some connections there that just make me leery of it, I guess.

    It doesn’t pay to underestimate the left. They always have an agenda and a goal in mind, and rarely if ever is it as innocent as it might seem on the surface of the situation.

    Oh, I could be dead wrong about the whole thing. But the associations are there, and the Unions via the NLRB have definitely picked up pace lately on trying to break into a “new market”.

  • gekster

    Surly you have something besides black helicopter logic.

  • acat

    (cheshire grin)

  • goformitt

    Both you guys seem to have a reading comprehension issue.
    I’ll put little starry things by the important parts of my original posts so you can see how off-track you have become …

    *Perry is no different than any of them*
    goformitt Wednesday, November 23rd at 11:21PM EST (link)

    Bought and paid for by corporate America. To the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars. I

  • gekster

    I’ve been avoiding using that just for this reason. LOL

  • gekster

    And you never could.
    You just can’t back up crap unless you use more crap, and that’s all you have.

  • tomatin

    How can you trust Romney on anything.

  • tomatin

    You’ve got to be joking.

  • tomatin

    and Romney threw that under the bus in MA.

    The man has zero conservative convictions.

    I don’t hear what you hear. No candidate is advocating amnesty here.

    Snark is a lame Democrat way to argue.

  • goformitt

    And here I was wasting my time with Frick and Frack upstream.

    I lived in Phoenix for years and spent a fair bit of time south of Tuscon. This was 2000-2005, so I’m sure things have changed. There were the very occasional “raids” on restaurant chains that would round up 95% of the workforce. It was, in my opinion, show. Not serious efforts to control the flow of illegal immigrants.

    I recall hiking down to the border at Sycamore Canyon and seeing the broken down barbed wire fence with a small, old sign: “International border – do not cross”. The trail eventually had so many immigrants moving along it that warnings to hikers were issued. Too many were getting robbed.

    As far as living in communities with a “mix of immigrants”, you evidently haven’t driven through Iowa recently. We have a number of towns with a high percent of immigrants. Many are hard working, many get abused by corporations who pay them little, house them like animals, engage them in dangerous activities without proper training, employ them underage and fire them at will with no recourse.

    Where they concentrate they bring down property values. Not because they are bad people, but because their are 14 of them in a 3 bedroom house with cars and toys and too loud music. In schools they take a disproportionate amount of resources. In the clinics they stress the medical resources to the breaking point.

    The corporations profit, the locals suffer, the immigrant laborers get screwed.

    The answer is not make false claims that anyone is going to seal the freakin border. Nothing we have the political will or financial ability to do will seal the border. The answer is to work with communities to explain (without the political and corporate BS) the real costs AND benefits of immigrant labor. Then let the community decide, and make sure the corporations foot the bill for the costs to the community.

    Now I suppose Frick and Frack will command me to cite everything I’ve said, so I should probably preempt them by suggesting the get stuffed. :-)

  • bs61

    But here in AZ we are concerned about the OTM population crossing the border – Other Than Mexican’s who are from countries who want us dead. That’s why we need to secure the border, it’s not about the poor Mexican families, it’s about our enemies.

  • gekster

    Your altitudinous cerebration has overwhelmed me. Just what can I say to that brilliant rebuttle of my behest averment of your protestation Perry has been procured off by corporations.
    The percipience you exube from your pate is most overwhelming.

  • ohiohistorian

    Amnesty under Reagan, coupled with the union push to not allow sensible immigration is the problem to solve as well.

    Why don’t you want t follow the current laws of the land? Are you afraid o the result? They will help solve it just like they got here, one group at a time. Self-deportation is a good possibility when there is no path to citizenship and they have to compete for jobs based on being here as an illegal rather than violating the laws. They came here for economic freedom knowing that the lazy and pseudo-compassionate Americans would leave them alone, would eventually throw up his hands and make him a permanent resident. He then joins laRaza to try to make the Southwest part of Mexico. How about instead enforcing Mexico’s laws on them like they would do to Americans who would move South?

    Violating our current laws of the land, like the current President is doing, is not an answer. More INS agents (or bounty hunters who take them back South or wherever they go) could also be a solution to both the illegals problem and the unemployment problem.

  • ohiohistorian

    My response to your first question on the solution is below (just do a forward search for OhioHistorian) .

    Madoff is not a perfect example, but it is one of justice served. What’s wrong with enforcing the laws of this nation on violators? For some reason, you seem to not want to perpetuate a problem that is bleeding this country of its capital by paying “benefits” including Social Security to illegal residents, giving them many other benefits that they don’t deserve.

    I read some commentor on my thread below that thinks they are paying for themselves. Then why are hospitals closing in high illegal areas, states running deficits, etc. due to them? Your economic logic does not compute. But I would be in favor of a law that lets them stay, bars them from welfare benefits, and makes them keep their noses clean. Deporting the criminals will also solve some of our prison and legal system costs. I heard one INS person give the estimate that less than 20 percent of the illegals are of this type.

    I would also say that the US citizen does not deserve those benefits either, but that is for another discussion. At least his collection of them is legal.

  • ohiohistorian

    And your example is perfect, acat. Have a Happy Thanksgiving.

    OhioHistorian

  • ohiohistorian

    If corporate Republicans and Democrats are running this country, then why such insanity as Dodd-Frank and similar? How do we get Barack Obama, Maxine Waters, Barney Frank, Bernie Sanders, etc etc elected if they run the country?

    Who is running the country is the “gimme” group that thinks that unearned capital belongs to them. Which includes most labor unions, which could not bear to not bankrupt GM and Chrysler and almost bankrupted Ford. And continue to bankrupt states with their attitude that they get pensions, inflated for “cost of living”, and lifetime medical care, with no out-of-pocket investment.

    It is the people who THINK that corporate America is ruining the country that are ruining the country. Look instead to the Socialist behavior of the country as the real culprit.

    Remember Margaret Thatcher? She is the one who talked about the problem with Socialism being that they run out of other people’s money. That is where we are today, not due to Corporate America.

    BTW, I don’t fault GE for paying no taxes. They used the stupid laws enacted by the greedy politicians to maximize their income. What I find stupid is the “brilliant” President who has Immelt on his advisory board for business.

  • independentmike

    I think Newt and Perry are on the right track.

    I believe that those illegals who’ve been here 5 years or more and who have not committed any crimes should be given a conditional status of legality, agree to learn English, and go to the back of the immigration line. This conditional status would enable them to get driver’s licenses, pay their fair share of taxes, etc., etc., but would not allow them to vote or hold elected office.

    However, any such reform would have to include genuine border security and strict enforcement against employers who hire illegals. Make it virtually impossible to cross our Southern border illegally.

    Finally, end the anchor baby policy. Nothing in the 14th Amendment requires us to grant automatic citizenship to babies born to illegals.

  • avagreen

    Easy to say: how would you do it?
    So far all you’ve done is jump to conclusions about what I’m thinking/approving (including the red herring about my beliefs on Social Security and illegals), all of which are wrong.

    You assume I approve of illegals being here. Don’t. I’m living in the middle of a booming crime rate because of the large number of criminal illegals in this state (Texas). Also don’t like the English language being crowded out by “peaceful” hispanic holidays being celebrated with the Mexican flag being flown over the American Flag.
    You know a lot that just not true.
    But, how to deal with “peaceful” families that have grown up here? For generations? That’s the question. (I have to say the Hispanic children, legal or not, that I see being raised around me are better raised and parented than the white mallrats that run rampant through the malls.)

    The question of how to deal with this problem is complicated, as evidenced by the fact of my asking one question, I get blown out of the water by two different people with two completely different views:
    * someone thinking I’m shoving Hispanics into the Democrat Party /sarc,
    *and you wrongly thinking I approve of the Social Security benefits being p aid to illegals (even though they’ve been paying into the system with their stolen SS numbers).

    So far, the only answer you’ve come up with is deportation.
    Deportation? Great…….how?
    Here in Texas the ones that are rounded up for deportation are released on bond to await their trail. Need I say more?

    Easy to say. Hard to implement.

    Your plan?

  • partyof1

    A federal court upheld most of HB56, Alabama’s immigration law. Within one day, thousands of students dissappeared from schools, renters vanished, and employees didn’t show up for work as a mass exodus began.

    One day.

    Deploying law enforcement resources to stop the cartel butchers is a good thing. I’m glad we have police officers like yourself doing good work. I’m saying that fences, and enforcement under current Texas law and lack of Federal committment is not effective as you clearly illustrated in your first paragraph. It will just make politicians like Perry look like they’re doing something. I know Perry is against a border fence but he’s also against state laws like AZ and AL have. But what he’s for is tailoring Texas law to encourage illegal immigration which sends the message that Texas is hospitable to illegals.

    Consider that of all the illegal immigration solutions that have been tried in any state, the ones that make the pro-illegal groups yell the loudest are laws that remove incentives for illegals to come here, and/or make the state actively inhospitable because they know these work..

    I’m not saying that getting and keeping these laws on the books will be simple. If parts are struck down, then we re-write to make them more bulletproof. Meantime we get the benefit of the parts upheld and more importantly, the message goes out that this state is not hospitable to illegal immigrants; only legal ones.

    You say that hispanics in Alabama have little political influence. That’s how Texas started out. There is nothing wrong with being hispanic or with hispanics having political influence. There is alot wrong with politicians encouraging citizens of other countries to come here then granting them either de facto or de jure amnesty so that they do have political influence. It is importing voters.

    Perry is:

    -Against E-verify
    -For in-state tuition for illegals
    -For Amnesty if it would avoid “splitting families” so that’s basically of them.
    -For guest worker visas for illegals

    Not serious.

    I’ve lived in Texas since Ann Richards was governor.

  • Scope

    I love hearing the perspectives of someone of hispanic descent and living in a location where you have a bird’s eye view of some of the problems. I love how so many have so many opinions, but have never once talked with the people they want to just throw out of the country. How many times have you read that the Mexicans are just here to get welfare benefits, and just sponge off the American taxpayers. I’ve actually seen some posts that claim there are no problems in Mexico, it isn’t violent and dangerous, that’s just all made up.

    I agreed with Gov. Perry’s idea of sending our military into Mexico to fight the drug cartels, and to break them up on their own turf, which ultimately spills over into our country. If I were a Mexican citizen, I would want to run as far away as possible also, and to take my family and loved ones with me. Gov. Perry has been the only one to have a long term vision, with a long term solution. I’m sure he would also cut off the aid dollars going into Mexico, that wind up in the hands of the drug cartel leaders, and corrupt Government officials. I would use those aid dollars on a concerted military effort to clean up a neighboring country so their problems don’t continue to be our problem. If it is as you say, that the Mexican citizens are trying to flee the violence, then I would believe that our efforts would be met with a swelling of support, and a willingness to work along side the US with it’s efforts to bring the violence to an end, and to clean up the cesspool that it has become. Right now it appears that no one will even utter a peep against the cartels, or the corrupt government as they know their heads would not remain attached to their bodies, so they flee to the US, if they can make it here alive. There is no other long term solution that I can think of.

  • clowngirl

    Also, for most crimes, isn’t there usually a statute of limitations? and yes, an illegal immigrant who has been here for 25 years and raising kids, paying taxes, etc. most have some form of income which means they must have been aided and abetted by an employer of some sort.

    As to daemonocracy’s post. I got the impression that Gingrich was suggesting deportation be handled on a case by case basis — with being deported being the default position and the immigrant in question must show extraordinary ties. As to your question about 5 or 10 years, I would say that after 5, or even 10 years, the person in question would still have a reasonably strong ties to friends and family in Mexico. After 25 years – while not being able to leave the country – I would imagine that’s no longer the case.

    I understand your point about a slippery slope – but there are also problems with no tolerance policies. That’s how you get schools expelling kids for really stupid things like bringing an aspirin to school. Do you really think somebody who illegally crosses the border and proceeds to break the llaw in numerous other ways should be treated the same as a grandmother who has been otherwise law abiding and a productive citizen for decades?

  • clowngirl

    And you point out a practice that seems to be a pattern with Romney — playing word games and trying to use buzzwords.

    He says they should be able to sign up for permanent residency or even citizenship — but with no special pathway and without really explaining (that I see hear anyway) how that’s supposed to work. He’s just talking out of both sides of his mouth trying to satisfy everybody.

    If he’s saying they have to go back to their own country and apply from there – then that’s the same as deporting them – and he should say that he’d deport them.. If they are allowed to stay here and become citizens, then that’s well – the DEFINITION of amnesty. By phrasing it the way he does he tries to obscure the nature of whatever position he actually has – as if the public is too stupid to figure it out and will just assume whatever interpretation they find most acceptable.

    It’s like in the discussion after this last debate. His representative was asked 7 times how he would deal with illegal immigrants who had been here for decades and refused to give a straight answer. He keeps repeating “They would not be given amnesty” and refuses to say what Romney WOULD do despite being asked repeatedly. Finally saying, basically, “you watched the debate – figure it out” because he wasn’t going to clarify.

    Of all the problems with Romney, perhaps the biggest is that he treats the public like they’re stupid. And that’s not going to win him independents and moderates any more than it’s winning over Republicans.

  • texabama

    I remember Glenn Beck making the point that when the government becomes involved and we see the hungry or homeless our thoughts are, “Why isn’t this being taken care of. I pay taxes for this.” It’s no longer our concern and we become apathetic. Jesus has told us to make this our concern and to help them as we would help him.

  • Tbone

    area’s of the world for fruits and vegetables and see the necessity for people willing to engage in very hard, physical labor. It isn’t really cheap, but it is really productive. Lot’s of our farm laborers make enough to own their own homes. They have an exemplary work ethic.

    What I don’t see are blacks and whites willing to do this work, welfare being a better option for them.

    When you actually live in close proximity with Mexican and Central American workers, you appreciate their contribution to our way of life.

    What is needed is a method for us to acquire this labor without the attendant social problems. We need to have a rational approach to this matter. “Sending everyone home” as the opening gambit is stupid, foolish and a non-starter.

    And no, I am obviously not worse than you.

  • Tbone

    who either hasn’t or can’t think above a linear plane of stupidity and ignorance.

    Why don’t you shut your mouth until you gain about 30 years of wisdom? Until then, at best, you will offer nothing of value other than background noise.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    No one has money to spend except those that are the targets of Obama and I don’t blame them Atlasses for shrugging

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    they work?

  • curtmilr

    Gov. Perry has spent $400 Millions of Texas money on the issue.
    He opposed use of E-verify the way it is currently done because it is only 50% accurate and placed a horrendous burden on small business while giving big business a pass.
    His plan to secure the border is the only sound and achievable one that has been proposed. He even deployed drones as a test of the concept! He is also correct that without the secure border not much else can be done by the states. The so-called magnets are enshrined in federal law, and can’t simply be ignored by the states.
    He supports alegal guest worker program. Every other candidate is too.
    He does NOT support blanket amnesty, but rather seeks to find a legal pathway to citizenship for those who want to assimilate.
    The Texas in-state tuition bill is the most stringent in the nation, and passed with overwhelming legislative margins because it was the best available option to try and recoup state expenses and resolve other issues as well. Any American not fromTexas can get that rate after one year of residency, the illegals have to prove three years and apply for citizenship. That action makes them LEGAL!!
    You are flatly WRONG that hispanics held little power in Texas. They predated Anglos here, were pivotal to theTexas Revolution itself, and have never relinquished their input into governance. Yes, they became demographically smaller due to faster Anglo immigration, but that too is changing as whites and blacks more frequently seek abortions.
    As Governor, Perry cannot do anything regarding the federal laws requiring provision of medical, education, and human services benefits. He can only manage the expense as best he can with the Legislature. He has aggressively contended with the national government over excess regulations and unfunded mandates. If only Romney & Gingrich had such a spine!

    I’ve lived in Texas my entire life, 63 years, and my family has since the 1880s. You’re a newcomer, and your straw men bullet-point arguments and jingoism are false on their face. This is a very complicated issue which you analyze with bumper sticker mentality adding nothing to the discussion. You don’t have to support Perry, but at least be honest about him.

  • retire05

    has been flown over the U.S. flag in Texas. Perhaps you could give me a link to an article that describes that? I understand it has happened in California, but I had not heard of it in Texas.

    You also seem to misunderstand why I say that the mindset where people equate “illegal” with “Mexican” shoves those of Mexican heritage into the Democrat Party. You need to take a look at the past with ethnic groups that migrated to the U.S. and understand why there were huge enclaves of Irish and Italians that voted for the Democrats. This is the same thing the current Democrat Party is doing with Hispanics, except for the Cubans, who can see through the falsehoods put out by the DNC.

    Convince an ethnic group, even one that basically holds the same conservative values as core Republicans, that the GOP is against them ALL, and you have a whole new voter bloc for the Democrats. By indicating that “illegal” equates “Mexican”, Hispanics assume, wrongly or rightly, that the Republican Party is against ALL of them. It is a tact the Democrats have used for over 100 years to great advantage.

    If you live in Texas, then you should know that many Hispanics subscribe to conservative values. They are pro-life, religious, family centric and hard working who want only what they earn, not a hand out. They are prime candidates to vote conservative, but pick on one of them and you pick on all of them. That comes with pride in one’s heritage. I challenge you to show one post here on this thread that talks about the number of illegal Chinese here in the U.S.,. or the number of illegal Vietnamese who are plentiful in Houston. The discussion always, ALWAYS, revolves around illegal Mexicans.

    What I am saying is that when we speak of illegal immigration, it is wrong to isolate one ethnic group. It ruins any chance of recruiting that ethnicity to the Republican Party. Illegals are not monolitic. They come from all nations. And that is something we need to recognize.

    I have spent the last 20 years trying to convince Hispanics that the GOP more closely represents their values, and with some success. To have our GOP candidates speak of them they way they do, only destroys all the work some of us have done to increase our party numbers for the last 20 years. Like it or not, it is a form of soft bigotry.

    BTW, “catch and release” is not just a Texas policy. It happens in all 50 states.

  • Scope

    I disagree with you that Perry has gone squishy on immigration. As I said above in a post, Perry is really the only one with a long term vision and solution to the immigration problem, among the illegals coming through the southern border at least.

    In our long fight with the war on terror, we have gone into the terrorists backyards and fought them on their own soil, particularly in Iraq and Afghanistan. As Gov. Perry has said, some of those radicals are trying to, or have set up shop in Mexico, and probably many of the South American countries as well. We have a complete and total failure in foreign policy with an Obama administration that would usher in a one world global society, where everyone, including those that want to kill us, would all be made equal, valid, worthy, and credible, hey maybe even superior to us lowly Americans.

    I would like to consider the mexican, and other ethnicities, in the drug cartels in Mexico, to be as deadly and as terrorizing as the radical islamists ever were. They and the radicals have something in common with favoring beheadings as a means of controlling those populations around them. So, can we agree they are “terrorists”?

    Governor Perry is the only candidate that has a long term vision and plan to take our military into Mexico in order to break up and crush the drug cartels in their own backyard, on their soil, and where they are operating from. I’m sure we can also crush the radical islamists moving into that area as well. I have to believe that the majority of the population in Mexico would welcome our efforts with open arms. I have to believe that the population in Mexico would be overjoyed, and would fight along side our troops en mass in order to rid their country from the oppression of drug lords, a corrupt and complicit government, and a dire way of life.

    Governor Perry has proposed a starting point of zero in foreign aid to countries that are not our friend and ally. Over the years, Mexico has to be among the top five countries where we have dumped billions, if not trillions in foreign aid, and for what? Like in Africa, those American tax payer dollars make it into the hands of the drug lords and the corrupt government officials hands, and nothing good ever comes of those dollars. Instead of writing them blank checks (and yes we are writing blank checks to Pakistan Ms. Bachmann) use those monies to pay for our military to fight the problem at it’s roots, rather than sitting back bellyaching about magnets, what form of security for the fence, buying buses to load up all those dang dirty brown skinned welfare queens, or costly government programs that try to “catch” those illegals when they are already here.

    Every other candidate only tinkers at the edges of the problem and either alienates a large voting block with loud and nasty rhetoric, or runs from any real solutions so as not to automatically throw those votes away. There is not the first GOP candidate that is willing to have the discussion we have been openly having among ourselves on this very needed and necessary diary. Governor Perry is the only one willing to step forward with real long term solutions. And where is he in the polls because he signed overwhelmingly passed legislation for in-state tuition for a very very small portion of illegal children wanting to attend college and become skilled workers, who contribute to society as well as the tax coffers.

    Please open your mind and give Governor Perry another look. You won’t regret it. But do me a favor, don’t rename yourself goforperry. LOL

  • tngal

    I followed your link to the original ICE memorandum. Was especially interested to see they were building their decisions based on previous decisions made, some as far back as 70″s. They’ve just been building, layer upon layer years overs, considerations and judgement calls. No wonder we have this problem. Good diary btw :)

  • 1stRichard

    Governor Romney

  • renl57

    Even if the GOP holds firm on citizenship, no political party holds onto power forever.

    The next time the Dems win a big election victory (and that will happen again someday), they will push for full citizenship. And that will be made much easier by Gingrich’s proposal to give the illegal aliens legality though not quite citizenship yet. Once they’re legal, coming up with a new program to get them citizenship will be but a small step for the Dem Party.

  • renl57

    We are NOT going to turn our southern border into what looks like a military war zone under siege.

    We’ll look ridiculous, positioning our Marine Corps on our southern border fully armed to stop a bunch of impoverished Mexicans from finding work in farming or construction. Not to mention the fact that we’ll have committed a vital part of our military to remain here in America on our southern border–indefinitely.

    We’ve got better missions for the Marine Corps, in an age of terrorism and rogue states.

  • renl57

    In 1994, Massachusetts’ economy was doing better than the U.S. economy is doing now. And Kennedy had always emphasized jobs. (He ran against Carter in 1980 when Carter didn’t seem to be emphasizing jobs enough.)

    None of that is true with Obama.

    Obama doesn’t want to raise the jobs issue with Romney, given his own track record on it.

  • acat

    This is part of the equation the Right often misses – “There couldn’t possibly be a connection” …

    Reminds me of “We’re well out of range of the ene…”

    (after all, in 2006, who here thought Obama could win, and in 2007, who thought he’d push as hard left as he has?)

    Mew

  • renl57

    Sure we could stop illegal immigration.

    And then we would have to pay minimum wage or higher to legal citizens to take those jobs. (Probably much higher; how many American citizens want to work as wetbacks?)

    And then the prices of fresh produce at the supermarket would go higher, the rates at major hotel chains would go higher, the prices charged for doing construction work would go higher. And the Consumer Price Index will rise.

    We wanted cheap prices. And so we got low prices with wages below the minimum wage, paid to illegal aliens who wouldn’t complain.

    Would you accept higher prices in the name of patriotism?

  • acat

    I tell you Perry is using Texas tax dollars to do the job the Feds won’t.
    Gekster tells you Perry has put a police presence on the border.
    Paladin1 tells you he’s part of that police presence.

    And your reply? “Nothing we have the political will or financial ability to do will seal the border.”

    That’s either a remarkable display of moxie or a clear sign that you aren’t here to discuss the issue, except as it relates to hitting Perry.

    Mew

  • acat

    I’ll just point out two things.

    First, my suggestion was in reply to goformitt’s provably false argument that “We cannot seal the border”.

    Second, there’s no small amount of proof that terrorists are taking full advantage of our wide open borders (north and south) and weak visa enforcement to slip people into our country.

    I view knowing who’s here as square in line with security in an age of terrorism, and I have a bit more trust in the USMC to actually *do the job* than any other branch.

    Mew

  • donald_24

    I’m concerned about all of the gifts that Perry has accepted as governor and how that might influence him. According to Politco, Perry has accepted, at a minimum, $22,500 worth of gifts from top donors, such as sports tickets, cowboy boots, and hunting trips. The fact is that, compared to most states, Texas has very lax ethics laws for politicians.

  • paladin1

    and which may not have been clear to you, is that Governor Perry, with his limited ability to deal with immigration and border issues, has been doing all he can at the state level, including hammering the Feds for assistance to do their jobs. If he has the ability to manage the Federal response as President, I believe he will make every effort to close the border to illegal immigration. The 1200 miles of Texas border can’t be fenced for the distance; that is impossible to complete and maintain in some areas. You are correct that the border cannot be sealed and I do not think Gvoernor Perry si saying that not one single illegal will ever get through. What he is saying is that the spigot can be turned off to a manageable drip and then we can deal with the issue of those who are here and do not choose to self-migrate back. At that point we will have the ability to deal with the issues you pointed out here:

    ” Many are hard working, many get abused by corporations who pay them little, house them like animals, engage them in dangerous activities without proper training, employ them underage and fire them at will with no recourse.”

    If it is decided that these illegals are given some form of legal status which includes work status, then they will be protected from the abuses you cite (which in my experience here, is not the norm).

    This is a very complex issue which, as you rightly pointed out, has no quick or easy solutions; amnesty is out of the question as the left wants (votes) and deportation of millions (as some on the right demand) is impractical and not feasible. Based on the approach Governor Perry has taken ( I have been an officer for over 30 years so I have an extensive range of experience) he recognizes the complexity and has approached the issue in Texas with all the assets we can afford and that he can legally administer. I understand your angry and jaded position on the games politicians have played with the illegal immigration issue for years, but you do Governor Perry a great disservice and propagate the misinformation, not by not looking at the issue here in depth and seeing what he has tried to accomplish. Remember, the illegals in your state most likely passed through mine (or Az., N.M., or Ca.) to get there in the first place so the issues you have there are multiplied here.

    Given the state of the problem which politicians have overlooked for various reasons for a hundred years, we as a nation are going to have to do the utmost to stop illegal immigration, deal with the issue in some fashion here, and even though it goes against the grain, cut our substantial financial losses as a nation, and by voter diligence never allow the situation to deteriorate again.

    I believe, based on his past performance here, that Governor Perry understands the issue, understands the views of both extremes, and will exercise his Federal Presidential authority to deal with the issue conclusively.

    Happy Thanksgiving, everyone!

  • donald_24

    The only politicans in America that have any credibility when it comes to illegal immigration are Kris Kobach, Tom Tancredo, Joe Arpaio, and Jan Brewer. I guarantee you that none of them will be appointed to the cabinet of a Republican president.

  • monty2

    it still wouldn’t explain to me how Romney is wrong when he is right and Perry, Gingrich are right when they are wrong. But hey, that’s just me I guess. Well, maybe with a ‘few’ who think the same way too? So now we’ll wait and see how the flow goes and then decide on whether or not to go with it.

  • donald_24

    The AFL-CIO supports amnesty. That is well documented:

    http://www.numbersusa.com/content/news/april-14-2009/afl-cio-teams-with-pro-amnesty-groups-immigration-overhaul.html

    But it is not just unions. The U.S. Chamber of Comerce is one of the biggest pro-amnesty lobbying groups in D.C. They are the reason why we don’t have mandatory E-Verify.

  • donald_24

    Perry’s relationship with one of his top donors, Perry Homes (no family relationship with Rick Perry) seems to be a bit shady. He took their money, and then appointed the company’s owner, Bob Perry, to a commission. Bob Perry also lobbied against the passage of an anti illegal-immigration law in Texas. Again, Bob Perry has no relationship to Rick Perry.

    http://www.star-telegram.com/2011/07/30/3258306/texas-millionaires-and-billionaires.html

  • donald_24

    And blame the corporate lobbyists, like Tom Donohue and the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, for the hiring of illegals.

  • Tbone

    Blah,blah, blah. Evil corporations control the world, huh?

    It would seem that you have become possessed by a demon of disillusionment.

    Why would you want to go for mitt when Mitt is the perfect example of crass hypocrisy?

  • acat

    In the case of Brewer, nobody knew what she would do before she signed SB1070. Becker has a whole rant on this.

    Further, SB1070 changed very little on the ground, Other than a couple “sanctuary cities”, most Arizona municipalities were already reporting every “contact” to ICE.

    Finally, one can make the case that Arizona is now worse off – since they can’t enforce the law until the Fed suit ends and illegals know it.

    As for Tancredo, he ceased being a politician and became a “motivational speaker” (or, more accurately, caricature) long ago. Go ahead and show me where Tancredo has done more than just sloganeering in years. Show me where he’s put up a plan with cost and time estimates. I want to know how many busses he thinks it’ll take to manage deporting 20 million people.

    Yes, this is a serious issue, but it’s also a more complex one than the bumper-sticker mentality of a Tancredo can handle, more subtle than the finger-in-the-air Brewer should be trusted with.

    Get educated, son.

    Mew

  • Tbone

    Much like a pile of dog poop on the sidewalk, he only deserves to be sidestepped.

  • Tbone

    “According to Politico”. Yep, your are a dupe.

  • vangoghssister

    This must be the stickiest wicket we as conservatives face, the one issue to keep us apart as a party. There will never be a perfect solution. How easy it is to be a progressive/liberal – amnesty for all, end of story. A number of commenters have mentioned several good ideas that make sense to me. Let me say here how much I appreciate those who take the time to offer well thought out solutions rather than criticism alone. In my mind, we must secure both borders first, in the most effective and practical manner. I do not believe a fence that runs the entire distance is the best method, terrain alone would prohibit this. Using all methods available, from fencing where practical to

  • donald_24

    Tancredo could not do much to stop illelgal immigration when he was in Congress. He wasn’t the chairman of any relevant committees, and Congressional leadership, as well as the Bush Admin., opposed him every step of the way.

    I noticed you did not mention Kobach, so that does mean you support him?

  • paladin1

    1) Thanks to all for the kind words regarding the diary issue. I would love to be able to post a diary and maybe the software problem will be fixed so I can soon enough. I already sent one a couple of months ago but it did not appear and with the large number of good diaries being posted, I understand that.

    2) I also found this after I posted my reply this morning and it is just further proof of the border situation deterioration. Some of the issue is drug smuggling and some is human trafficking. It is all however, dangerous and getting moreso for the border presence we have.

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/nov/22/armed-illegals-stalked-border-patrol/

  • Xasteius

    I was thinking something like this:

  • acat

    was thrown by Karl Rove’s minions in the last Texas gubernatorial election.

    If there were anything to it, one would imagine charges would have been filed and Rick Perry would not be a free man and the sitting Governor of Texas.

    This also reeks of #OWS class warfare, donald .. or are you okay with denying the first amendment rights of people based on their wealth? If so, can you provide a scale so I know when I’ve made enough and need to stop speaking?

    Mew

  • donald_24

    I never once alleged that Perry broke the law. In my opinion, he did not break the law. But that is because ethics laws in Texas are not as strict as they are in other states.

    And how is this class warfare? I am not criticizing anyone for being rich. Am I advocating that we tax Bob Perry more? No, I am not. Everyone has the right to lobby their politicans. But nobody should be given priority because of their money. The person who donates $1 should have the same lobbying power as the person who donates $10 million. Is that class warfare? There is a big difference between class warfare and pay to play.

  • giatny

    The first step for conservatives is to accept that
    11 million will not be rounded up for deportation.
    Second, an efficient system for legal immigration
    and administration is mandatory. Smart legal
    immigration for the highly educated, skilled professional, entrepreneurs, investors and agriculture workers would come next along with better border security and E verify. For illegals to have the opportunity to APPLY for any legal status would require strict terms: ex: 10 years proof of SS and income taxes paid; no abuse of social programs
    meant only for citizens (including the EIC); no crimes; a job; a sponsor. Then see who’s left and decide. Suggesting back taxes, a fine and speaking English sufficient to avoid the claim of amnesty, ignores the impossibility of determining much less enforcing the amounts due. I laugh when the pro amnesty crowds claim it would be too difficult and expensive to deport ll million but I would hope that the same amount of individual
    attention be given those allowed to stay. The Dems know that Romney is the only one electable
    too bad the Republicans don’t.

  • acat

    SecState in Kansas, which is neither a border State nor a particularly significant Federal position. I did not mention him because I don’t see why I should bother with him, nor Sheriff Joe. I’d much prefer they both go do the jobs they were elected to do and quit grandstanding on the immigration issue.

    I’ve long since concluded grandstanding is all Tancredo is capable of. Tancredo supported Romney in 2008, and screwed up the GOP chances in Colorado in 2010.

    Mew

  • acat

    As it is pointless for you to bring up the charge if you don’t think Rick Perry is guilty, either legally or morally, I must conclude you *do* think there’s a moral fault here. Either that, or you enjoy wasting time.

    Yes, you are endorsing class warfare, by attempting to restrict the speech of the $10 million donor.

    Further, if you really think lobbyists are the problem, you ought to be rushing to support Perry – his proposal to make Congress part time would mean lobbyists would be out of a job (or at least out of D.C. … perhaps visiting Bismark and Boise….) when there’s nobody in town to lobby.

    There are some rather large holes in your knowledge.

    Mew

  • Scope

    for a second and wish you a Happy Thanksgiving. Good to see the tryptofan (sp) hasn’t gotten to you yet.

  • donald_24

    So saying the $10 million donor should have the SAME free speech as the $1 donor is class warfare? Come on now, I think your throwing around the “class warfare” label a little too loosely.

    And Perry’s part time Congress proposal would actually make things worse since he would allow them to have outside employment, which opens up the door to conflicts of interest. We have that here in NY for the state legislature and it has been a disaster, with many of the politicans getting high paying no show jobs. The Assembly speaker gets paid $1 million a year from a major personal injury law firm and, surpirse surprise, he kills any attempt at tort reform. The former Senate majority leader is currently being tried for getting paid thousands for no show “consulting” jobs.

  • Scope

    Just maybe it was one of those who paid for hunting trips that put that rock at the leased Perry campsite. They made sure to fly him in on black helicopters. That was after they posted the signs to not shoot the genetically modified, or cloned deer.

  • changeforrickperry

    He is insulting our intelligence. No one has accused Willard of being bought, but Willard-bots have no qualms accusing Rick Perry of it. Some haters gotta hate, I guess.

    So when do we get to invoke the Hinz rule? IMO it is long overdue.

  • changeforrickperry

    Whoo-hoo! Zinger! Golly, the Perry haters are swarming, aren’t they?

    By the way, Happy Thanksgiving, Scope! Are you enjoying your day thus far?

  • Xasteius

    you don’t get to vote and you don’t get the benefit of social services. If you are found in violation of either, you are shipped to China. Military service exemption is 10 years and no dishonorable discharge.

  • Xasteius

    At least then they’re doing something productive.

  • ohiohistorian

    I replied earlier and copied it below. Told you in the post to which you replied (above) to search for the other entry. If you can’t read, don’t bother writing. To help you out, I have put the reply at the bottom of this article.

    Did you read “self-deport” in the response below? Would you like a definition? That is where an illegal, who is not GIVEN a job, GIVEN welfare, or GIVEN the other goodies that are available, goes home. It happens also when the laws of the land are enforced (al a Arizona, where the number of illegals is going down as they flee to New Mexico where they can get driver’s licenses).

    Another good step could be if the Obama Administration would enforce the laws in the “57″ states instead of filing suits against Arizona and Joe Arpayo which his AG has done. The solution is through enforcement, not through amnesty and DEFINITELY not through the US government pretending that laws that reflect the US law are civil rights violations when they have never even tried to get their own laws so ruled so in a court of law.

    Too bad about the payments to Social Security. They lose because they stole the number in the first place.

    Are you done beating me over the head with your stupidity?
    ==================================================
    Here is what I said before in response to your earlier response BELOW:

    Amnesty under Reagan, coupled with the union push to not allow sensible immigration is the problem to solve as well.

    Why don

  • ohiohistorian

    Obviously have multiple generations of citizens.

  • donald_24

    Both parties are to blame. Both voted for TARP. Both put special interest loopholes into the tax code. Both tripled the national debt in the last decade. Both fought against spending cuts. Both parites inside trade to enrich themselves. The last GOP majority in Congress spent money like a drunken lobbyist (I won’t say sailor since I refuse to bash people with the courage to serve).

    Yes, democrats and Obama have made things worse. But so have the Republicans. For goodness sake, the last GOP House Majority leader is now a convicted felon!

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    There are no jobs and there are few people that can pay a legal retainer.

    I work 24/7 365. Is it productive if no one can pay you? I have actually taken backyard garden veggies for a fee!

    We are in a Depression friend and I wish the government would come to my house and offer me a check for doing community service.

  • donald_24

    I would like to see the U.S. adopt the immigration standards of other countries like Australia and admit people based on their net worth and income. This will help to prevent welfare abuse by newly admitted immigrants. If you want to immigrate here, then you should have to show your financial reosurces and prove that you won’t be a burden on society. Again, many countires have such a system in place so it is not unprecendented.

  • Scope

    Yes, I am enjoying my day. The hubby and I start doing our Christmas decorating on Thanksgiving, while giving thanks for every little thing we have, especially each other, and our 3 four legged canine kids, and one four legged feline princess.

    I hope you are having a great day. I did notice that your time of prayer the other day did help tremendously with Gov. Perry’s terrific debate performance. I loved how he startyed so many conversations that night, which other candidates either agreed with, or tried to rob as their own arguments. Did you notice that?

    I am thankful today change for our young, such as you, that give me great hope for this country that you so well deserve to have. You make me proud. Now, have you heard any all points bulletins put out for pttx riding any flying turkeys above Chicago?

  • changeforrickperry

    I have really come to appreciate your friendship. I’m so thankful for this opportunity to help Governor Perry in any way I can, and so thankful for everyone here at RS.

    I’m having a fine day as well. We are probably about to head home and listen to Christmas music on the way. Putting up the tree tomorrow, yippee! I haven’t heard from pttx333, but I’ll be glad to have her back soon! By the way, see my comment on “The Private Life Of Gov. Perry” from yesterday. We had our first “personal experience” with him yesterday and I love him more than ever.

    I wa so relieved that Perry did well the other night. All glory to God! I think we’re going to see Him do great things in the near future. Everything is in His control, and He will honor those who honor Him.

  • monty2

    Just as long as they aren’t worth too much and don’t have enough income that they wouldn’t want to work for less than minimum wage in the fields and sweatshops. Yep, good plan!

  • avagreen

    An apology would be nice.

    I’m not going to get your list like some have to give you an opportunity to do whatever you are doing here.

    [You don't realize this, but on another forum (Gateway Pundit), I (under another name) came to your rescue quite often when you were being attacked.] Please drop this and quit trying to create an argument over jots and tittles you find in a post.
    http://abclocal.go.co/ktrk/story?section=news/local&id=7428603

    And, who said catch and release is ONLY in Texas.

    BTW, I can’t be held responsible for how GOP candidates speak about Hispanics, so please quit trying to make that issue a part of what I posted that you MISUNDERSTOOD.

  • avagreen

    He seems to be a more likely target of your posts, than a fellow conservative. WTH?

  • aesthete

    A corporate subsidy is redistributionary in nature. It forces me to pay money to a corporation under penalty of imprisonment or fine. Having access to a larger pool of workers? Not so much.

  • avagreen

    A sure sign of someone losing a debate.

    1. Your circular reasoning that somehow I don’t want to “follow the laws of the land” is wrong and much like “mind reading”.

    2. More INS agents (or bounty hunters who take them back South or wherever they go) could also be a solution to both the illegals problem and the unemployment problem. is not a solution as they can just walk back over the border again, which I’ve (and others) have mentioned before somewhere. Obviously, you don’t live in a border state.

    3. Thank you for the definition of ‘self-deportation’. ;)
    This isn’t the answer as you’ve already admitted, but it does make for a good retort on a forum.
    Let’s look at the progress so far: SB 1070 (AZ law) was overturned, the architect of the bill (Russell Pearce )was recalled recently, and currently the same law in Alabama is under attack, so that’s not a possibility.
    Obama has vowed to fight any of these type bills.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/obama-administration-widens-challenges-to-state-immigration-laws/2011/09/28/gIQA8HgR7K_story.html

    What else is in your plan?

  • aesthete

    I’m a Puerto Rican living in Tucson, and it makes me laugh when liberals pretend like this is Mexican Kristalnacht. In a state that’s 30-40% Hispanic, a law isn’t going to support without at least a large minority of Hispanics being in favor. I wasn’t in favor of the law for a couple of reasons, but nothing having to do with racism.

    That said, many of the go-to “secure border” groups, like FAIR, are anything but: they’re hide-bound nativists who use shift argumentation to make it seem like there’s something endemically wrong with “those people”. It goes beyond mere critique of culture (which I’m fine with), and to a nasty form of Orientalism at best, and out-and-out xenophobic racism at worst.

  • avagreen

    Think Bobby Jindal.

    Study: 4 million ‘illegal’ immigrant children are native-born citizens
    http://edition.cnn.com/2009/US/04/14/citizen.children/index.html

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    God bless

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    citizenship policy as for two non-citizens to give birth to a citizen. Not the time for it but I have written two legal treatises on 14th Amendment law on this subject and appreciate that phrase for future use.

  • steveishere

    http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/crimereports/10/citCh2.pdf

    According to the official Texas crime statistics all categories of violent and property crime were down year over year from 2009 to 2010 (Page 8)

    If you look at the graph on page 7 you’ll see that the crime rate has been basically flat for the last 15 years.

  • steveishere

    The border between the Koreas at the 38th parallel is 160 miles long.
    The US border with Mexico is 1969 miles long.

    That’s a whole lot of Marines.

  • steveishere

    Should read Page 8 but when you put the 8 next to a close parens you end up with a stupid emoticon. My apologies

  • Thomas_Alan

    Replaying that Romney clip where he clearly in the next sentence says that he isn’t supporting a special path or guaranteeing that illegal immigrants can stay.

    Tell me, what’s the difference between this and what Ed Shultz did to Rick Perry with the “Big black cloud” clip. Tell me how any of you that do this are any better than him.

    So we can toss Newt, Rush, Eric, Aaron, Ace, and who knows how many more off the credibility list because of their irrational dislike of Romney. Even when he agrees with them and is on our side, they still feel the need to tear him down for the fun of it.

  • nathanalbright

    Stop acting like a candibot and using cliches.

    [see: http://www.redstate.com/rstreu/2011/11/21/things-i-never-want-to-hear-again-for-the-rest-of-the-primary-season-a-primer-for-new-politicos/]

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    btw, I am further to the left that any of the candidates. Perry inspired me to do a 180 (see below)

    I also am happy to see Romney evolve. I trust him to keep his word in what he says in this campaign to a certain extent. My position is closer to Newt’s, but:

    http://www.redstate.com/gamecock/2011/11/21/2344/

  • carolynr

    Well, I’ve read some of the posts. What a hard subject. There is such a problem with this, however I think that some of this can be worked out.

    Facts…even though America is supposed to be a center right country…all I hear about is OWS, Soros people, welfare and redistribution people. The Republicans need a candidate that can garner enough votes to win. Hispanics are the key to this.

    Many people look at the California Dream Act and see how much the illegal population is costing the taxpayer which eventually filters to us and we’ve had it. I don’t like the anchor baby law…but guess what, if those people try to go back to Mexico with an American born baby…Mexico does not want them either.

    The Texas Legislature had a good idea…let them have in-state tuition. I blog about this all the time. Payers rather than Takes. Detroit is ready to file bankruptcy in December. There were conditions to the tuition also. So, we have to get Obama out and we need the Hispanic vote to get him out. I am not talking Illegals…I am talking Hispanics that empathize with their race. If we don’t get Obama out, we will be living pretty close to what Germany had become under Hitler. I am not an exaggerator..this is already happening.

    So…how do you sell this to the majority of people…maybe get some of the blue dogs to come over to our side. OK…they are given a verification card for a time period, they must get an American sponsor, they must pay SS and income tax for a given amount of time. After that time period, they may apply for citizenship in line with everyone else. If they want to go to college, the rate would be determined by the states…not the Federal government. If these conditions are not met, they are deported.

    We will not deport the existing people…I know this will not happen…you know it also…might not like it…but you know it. Perry is right with stopping the flow of Illegals into this country. That must be accomplished first and foremost. However…they can be legal for a time period and then apply for citizenship.

    I live in good ole boy country…I can’t get people to do manual labor. They would rather collect welfare. Who comes to do construction work…Mexicans. Who fixed my garage door…Mexicans. I couldn’t get people that were White to even give me a bid. Do you think my good old boys are going to pick the vegetables…I don’t. In fact…they won’t even do road work. While I agree that we need professionals…I do not think that professionals are any more important than people that do the jobs I just mentioned either. Roofs are just as important when it is raining as doctors are when you have a cold.

  • avagreen

    ^^

  • whitfox3

    I agree the rule-of-law argument is unconvincing. But so is the argument that amnesty is merited, and that it won’t encourage even more illegal immigration. It’s not as if we haven’t tried this before.

    Is it sufficient to have parents who can’t be here legally? Many legal immigrants accepted seperation from their family in order to come here, and faced a far greater burden to visit their former homelands.

    Bad conditions in Mexico? By that standard, we should be accepting unlimited immigration from a large number of countries. If we decide we can’t tolerate a troubled state on our borders, accepting lots more immigration is not a solution.

    I just don’t see how this doesn’t get turned into the “blanket amnesty” most of us say we’re not in favor of. If we believe we have good immigration laws, then we have done enough for potential immigrants. If we don’t believe that, then we should be fixing the laws instead of creating arbitrary amnesties.

  • carolynr

    Happy Thanksgiving.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    if we “encourage” more illegals to come. But given decades of de facto open borders our moral argument against long-term residents is not credible.

    Btw, great questions and points

    http://www.redstate.com/gamecock/2011/10/03/gop-can-affirm-rule-of-law-and-define-amnesty-down/

  • Thomas_Alan

    Almost anyone in the world can do that.

    Romney hasn’t evolved at all. He was hammering McCain and Giuliani at every opportunity on the immigration issue throughout 2007 and into 2008.

  • carolynr

    However…you and I are out of the same generation. What I have figured out…is that the next generation one down…has dumbed down the law. Look at what happened with the OWS crowd at that private park, Sicotti (sp). Bloomberg would not even get them out of there. Is there a law about defecating on the streets….yes…was it enforced…no. Do you see what I mean.

    If Eric Holder joined with the Country of Mexico to sue Alabama and Arizona for asking for papers, giving the argument that it infringed on their human rights…how hard do you think it is going to be to get a bill through Congress with conditions? Heck…they can’t even agree on slowing the growth of spending…let alone that.

    That is why I am for Governor Perry. The man has guts. He might stumble with his words…but his policies don’t stumble…and neither does he. We need a leader…the the rest of the pack of feckless.

  • Thomas_Alan

    Mexicans are the only people to do roof work, clean house, pick crops, build roads. All white people are lazy.

    Funny thing though…in parts of the country where there aren’t many Mexicans, food gets picked, roofs get repaired, roads are drivable, and hotel rooms stay clean.

    Funny that.

  • avagreen

    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/these-are-the-top-10-cities-where-violent-crime-is-soaring/

    http://247wallst.com/2011/11/22/cities-where-violent-crime-is-soaring/3/

    I’ve heard this complaint before about this report. The numbers are just estimates.
    You will notice on your pdf under “Offense Estimation” that it states that some Law Enforcement Agencies had difficulties meeting the time line, and estimates of offenses in those agencies had to be made.

    And, under “Crime Volume” there were an estimated index offences in Texas, but they still have a drop of 4.6% compared to 2009.

    So, how accurate is the data? Not very, especially when only a drop of 4.6% is the difference based upon “estimated” numbers.

    You will see here that it is stated the numbers on the 2007 report is not accurate d/t flaws in the system.
    http://www.ci.garland.tx.us/NR/rdonlyres/55E9A882-5715-4A94-B0D4-62C971792F4A/0/2007annualucrreport.pdf

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    see post further down

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    Its because they were liberal occupiers that they facilitated them.

  • greyeagle

    I would suggest you go and read the different parts of Obamacare bill. It is horrific! Obama said that illegals would not be covered, but that is a lie. HHS has set aside about 40 billion to cover illegals. This money will come from severe cuts in medicare. Do you have parents on medicare? Well they are going to be lucky to get much care at all. Seniors, mentally, physically handicapped, the very young (preemies) and those will severe diseases like cancer will also be in this rationed group.. Obama has set up a 15 person unelected unconfirmed group of people who will determine healthcare options, treatments, surgery, hospice etc. Most of these people are non-medical, but they will be making medical decisions. They will be reporting to Obama instead of Congress as has been the norm in the past. Obamacare is a nightmare. I have read the bill 3 times. There is no telling the regulations written by Dr. Berwick another of these unelected unconfirmed minions of Obama. I would suggest reading this bill very slowly. You may want to rethink your support of Obamacare.

  • greyeagle

    Actually, I believe this is the policy for those trying to come here legally. It is those who come here illegally that are the problem.

  • avagreen

    http://www.statesman.com/opinion/were-not-safe-from-rising-crime-rates-735232.html

    http://www.bestplaces.net/backfence/viewcomment.aspx?id=1C98E4B8-3F11-4691-B7CC-8AECD31AB036&city=College_Station_TX&p=54815976

    http://jacqui.instablogs.com/entry/crime-rates-are-worse-in-texas-says-monterrey-study/

  • greyeagle

    I also suggest (as others mentioned) eliminate anchor baby law, fine companies that hire them. Drones on both borders, change federal law to put troops along with border patrol on all borders. Step up inspections by sea. Fencing in urban areas. Drones for everything else. Warnings in several languages on all borders and arm the drones. Partner more closely with Canada and Mexico. Stop the State Dept. from issuing diversity visas to people from know terrorist countries Retina scan everyone coming in to our country and scan when they leave. Know who has overstayed their visas and ban from this country. A number of these suggestions have not been mentioned. It would however, perhaps stop potential terrorists coming in to this country.

  • greyeagle

    The Star Telegram is a left wing rag. They routinely do a hit piece on Governor Perry is their Dem buddies have an issue.

  • retire05

    problem with not being able to comprehend what people write. Don’t try to make YOUR problem mine.

    As to coming to my defense, perhaps you would like to give the moniker you used at GP to identify yourself? As to defending me, I have not asked for your assistance, nor do I require it. I am quite the adult who is able, and willing. to defend myself. Now, if claiming that you have rushed to the aid of others makes you feel good about yourself, far be it from me to crush that pat on the back you seem to want to give yourself.

    All I have asked of you is that you, and others, stop equating “illegal” with “Mexican.” So there will be no apology coming. And I highly recommend that you become less sensitive to things that are said on a website.

  • avagreen

    avafromtexas.

  • greyeagle

    The most expensive Presidential Campaign is Mitt Romney. He has been running for at least 4 years. Perry? Nah!

  • donald_24

    If you read the bill 3 times, then I am sure you read the following sentence contained in the bill:

    “

  • avagreen

    the Dallas Morning News, the San Antonio Express News, and the Austin American-Statesman.

    All liberal rags.

    They all hate Perry and anything conservative.

  • greyeagle

    Perry was able to get federal assistance from Bush. Obama has refused everything. Perry asked for drones, aviation assets, and boots on the ground. The TX Rangers catch them and ICE turns them loose. Falcon Lake has been the site of numerous incidents with drug cartels. TX has limited resources, so this was a logical choice. The bottom line is that the Feds refuse to do their job. Governor Perry does what he can. Please stop trashing Governor Perry. You are NOT helping your candidate.

  • greyeagle

    My comments were directed at goformit.

  • greyeagle

    You have a difficult job. It has to be very frustrating. Keep up the good work.

  • acat

    simply because they are rich.

    The 99% have the same voting rights as the 1%, and the 99% have the right to ignore what the 1% say, right? Or .. do you think the 99% are so weak-minded that they must be protected?

    I would encourage you to compare the New York experience with the Texas one rather than assuming – if Perry gets anywhere with this proposal – that we’ll end up with one over the other.

    Mew

  • donald_24

    No, living under Obama is not anywhere near as close as what Germany had under Hitler. The Hitler analogies are offensive and should not be levied against any politican. It was wrong when the liberals compared Bush to Hitler and it is just as wrong when conservatives compare Obama to Hitler. The Hitler analogies are offensive to those who survived the Holocaust and the American soldiers killed by Nazis.

  • acat

    Invoke away.

    Mew

  • aesthete

    Aesthete is grateful for the many blessings that God has bestowed upon him — family, friends, food. Unfortunately, among those gifts was not a functioning sarcasm detector — I can’t tell if you’re being serious or not. Oh, well: have a good Thanksgiving, and God bless.

  • aesthete

    No one’s saying that whites are lazy — merely that the comparative advantage of hiring an immigrant over an American in a menial job is so great, that employers have a large incentive to hire them, and that the only way to achieve equality of outcome in this area is through the same means used by government in other areas: redistributive and punitive assaults on the economic rights of business owners.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    country be a special path? I think so. Not a big deal, but just reading the English language.

    Yes, I think Romney’s current position is due to polls of the GOP and that McCain-Bush amnesty was so soundly rejected.

    Political opportunism.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    God bless America

  • donald_24

    So banning businesses from hiring illegals are “redistributive and punitive assaults on the economic rights of business owners”? If that is the case, then what about child labor laws? Are those “redistributive and punitive assaults on the economic rights of business owners”?

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    in Georgia, after passage of e-verify etc. That has been the experience. I think a year or two more of Great Depression III and more blacks and whites will get hungry enough to take them.

  • aesthete

    However, in the case of the second, children are involved — and conservative thought has consistently seen children as a different category altogether from adults since they aren’t developed enough to make informed and rational decisions for themselves. We don’t stop children from working because they undercut the wages of “hard working Americans”, or whathaveyou — we prevent them from working because that is a context which is ripe for abuse and self-harm, in a manner that is not true for most adults.

    In contrast, all of the abuse in the jobs that illegals work are completely and entirely a function of the illegality, and a lack of access to the court system — IOW, things that would be rectified (or at least ameliorated) by a functioning guest worker program. I support a guest worker program for that, and more besides, making it possible for businesses and labor to unite to benefit one another, while increasing respect for the rule of law. Do you support a guest worker program, or increased immigration which would eliminate the need for legal immigration, if those things are coupled with top-notch enforcement and secure borders? If not, why not?

  • vaaztx

    Namely the peach pickers noted a couple messages up, don’t get paid hourly, thus the minimum wage doesn’t apply. They get paid per bushel picked. A good picker can make hundreds of dollars in a day. A crappy one can’t even buy lunch off McDonald’s dollar menu.

  • donald_24

    I do not support a guest worker program. I have seen the abuse that comes from existing programs, like H1-B Visas, which is used to throw American workers out of their jobs and replace them with cheaper immigrant labor. Plus we have 16% real unemployment. American workers should have priority over those jobs.

    If we are to let workers into this country, then they should be granted citizenship. This way they are not second class workers and cannot be taken advantage by employers. Guest workers can be taken advantage of by employers. Plus, citizens will care more about their communities than guest workers. They will buy houses. Start businesses, etc. A guest worker is not going to. Under the H1-B Visa scheme, employees are discouraged from complaining about unfair labor practices because, if they do, they can be fired. And if they lose their job, they have 2 weeks to leave the country. In fact, USCIS recently found that 20% of all H1-B Visa applications are fraudulent.

  • acat

    it also contributed a large number of new citizens to our country, with real, marketable skills. (unlike, say, a degree in womens studies or “journalism”)

    As for citizens caring more for their communities, that’s the same hogwash that got us the Community Reinvestment Act, a direct contributor to the housing bubble.

    Please do try to be serious.

    Mew

  • Thomas_Alan

    Romney’s statement said nothing about the person being allowed to stay in the country during the application process. They would remain illegal and subject to immigration laws and deportation unless the application (which receives no special consideration) goes through.

    Not sure what part of the English language makes that a special path.

  • Thomas_Alan

    The farmers in Georgia aren’t paying enough because they’re used to using Hispanics as exploitable labor.

  • acat

    is a complete rewrite of society.

    I don’t think it’s a bad idea, but .. that’s a pretty huge change… and I don’t see it happening peacefully…

    Let’s also remember that bit about “once the voters realize they can vote themselves bread and circuses…”

    (this is one reason why I think voting should be limited to those who file a 1040… even if the government gives them a refund, they’re at least participating in the system…)

    Mew

  • acat

    is that labor and peaches are both subject to the laws of supply and demand.

    If it costs more to harvest peaches than the peaches can be sold for .. it’s cheaper to let ‘em rot than to try to hire utterly unskilled never-been-on-a-farm never-worked-a-day kids for the job.

    Mew

  • Thomas_Alan

    In areas without Mexicans around, crops still get picked.

    Supply and demand in Georgia may have become topsy turvy temporarily because of the disruption of exploitable labor, but it doesn’t mean the market won’t readjust.

  • acat

    We may end up with peaches becoming something only the well-off or those with their own trees enjoy. That would be “readjustment” in a negative way.

    Mew

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    for anyone that has entered illegally, then yes, that would not be “special.” Has Mitt said that he favors no change in the law even after the border is secure? I do know that Mitt used the phrase “path to citizenship” which has always been a phrase that means a change in the law for illegals already here after a fence.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    won’t do for the current market price and can’t or won’t try it as an independent contractor paid based only on production.

    My focus is simply on the reality of what Americans face on employment options going forward.

  • Thomas_Alan

    The world will keep its peach supply.

  • Thomas_Alan

    I can’t chase after what you may have heard without context.

    But we all can agree that Mitt did say “no special pathway” during this interview that’s being so mischaracterized.

  • circlegranch

    as if they are not a soverign state and should not be able to make their own laws? If Gov. Perry and/or any other TX politician is compliant with their standing laws on campaign finance, gifts, etc., somehow he’s to be blamed for doing so? Conduct due diligence on every other governor, past or present and see if you can’t find something to make you question their ethics. Until the 10th Amendment is stricken from the Constitution, get used to having individual states determine their own laws and if you have a problem with a state’s laws, there’s 49 others you can move to (unless you live in Obama’s fantasy world, in which you have 56 others.)

    It’s the same with this instate tuition debate. People try to spin it to where it was Perry and Perry alone, that wrote and signed the law, nobody else had input or votes. Its ridiculous and quite frankly, frightening, that we can become so duped by the media and second hand information and the future of the country hinges on spin, misinformation and intentionally misleading information.

  • circlegranch

    by writing that Perry has ‘done nothing’ to secure the border. I suppose there are writers here that make such outrageous comments in hopes Media Matters and MSNBC types wil pick them up and run as headline news.

    There is a danger in falsifying information about a person’s record or character. At least preference a lie with stating ‘in my opinion’. To put forth blatant misstatements in trying to convince someone to support your candidate, you end up alienating far more than you attract. If you’re not sure about Perry’s immigration pollicies, first look at federal laws currently on the books so you can educate yourself about what a governor can and cannot do, next do your homework and then come to the table with what you’ve learned.

    It’s sad that this primary election for many is not about what’s best for America or having the intellectual curiosity and honesty to make sure you have your facts straight before pummeling someone’ character and record of experience.

  • lineholder

    about liberals building layer upon layer over time…that’s the very essence of the left. They never lose sight of their agenda. From their viewpoint, liberalism is a “cause”. They’re very determined and persistent, willing to invest years of time, energy and effort into succeeding in that “cause”. And if it means sacrificing their own soul in the process, they’ll do it. They have no conscience to speak of on that point. None at all.

    I don’t want the right to become like the left re: sacrificing our souls for a cause, but I do wish at times that we would be a bit more cause-minded than we have been in the past. Even if our cause is defined as protecting and preserving various elements on which this nation was built, such as the rule of law, at least we would have something solid that we are united to strive for in days, months, or years ahead.

    The left will undermine the rule of law and replace it with the rule of man, if given the chance. As respect for the rule of law decreases, potential for lawlessness and chaos increases, and so does the potential for the left to present the argument that “big government has to fix it”, furthering their cause. That’s what they want, and they’re very shrewd (in a conniving context) about pursuing their goals.

    I’m just tired of seeing the right make it easier for them to succeed, and realistically speaking, tngal, in a lot of cases, that’s exactly what we end up doing.

  • retire05

    return to the social principals that made this nation the greatest nation in the history of mankind.

    While there are those who totally blame the illegal for coming here seeking jobs, they ignore that since time began, humans have gone where they could survive. Now is no different. And as long as we have thousands of housing units full of able-bodied people who simply use the system to get out of being responsible for themselves, we will have those from all across the globe that will take those jobs.

    I have more respect for the uneducated Honduran who will cross a dangerous desert to find work to support his family than I do for the people who are unwilling to do any job thinking it is much easier to just live off the largess of others, without giving a second thought to haw many children they have that they can’t support, knowing others will pick up the tab.

    I truely believe in a hand up for those who fall on hard times. I do not believe in hand outs that become a generational way of life. We have removed any sense of responsibility from our own people, telling them that if they don’t do the things that guarantee their ability to take care of themselves, we will be there to support them. Thomas Sowell and Walter Williams have written extensively on what it takes to stay off the dole and it is pretty damn simple: finish high school; don’t do drugs; don’t have children you can’t afford to take care of before you are even married. Of all the social ills that plague our nation, welfare abuse is my biggest complaint.

    The disaster that was Hurricane Katrina was compounded by what we saw; a city where many of the residents were no longer able to think for themselves, much less be responsible for themselves. They had lived on welfare for so long that unless they were directed by some federal bureaucrat, they were unable to do even the minor things required for their own survival. These are the people who should be taking the jobs that illegals take. If they were willing to start at the bottom, and do the things that are required to advance, there would never be a need, or a lure, for illegals as those jobs would be filled by un/undereducated Americans.

    Instead, we provide for their every need. Free housing, food stamps, free cell phones, free cable TV, TANF, Medicare/Medicaid, etc. For those who are willing to spend their lives watching Oprah, and not breaking a sweat, it is a way of life.

    After Katrina, I spend 23 months (to the day) in Mississippi helping to rebuild shattered lives. The fraud and abuse I saw by Americans who either did not understand that for every dollar they were given that dollar was taken from another American, or perhaps they just didn’t care, made my stomach churn. I came home disgusted and disillusioned by my own fellow countrymen.

    Illegal immigration is nothing more than a symptom of our own people’s unwillingness to do any job required for survival. People who live in proverty chose to do so because they are unwilling to do the things necessary to get out of poverty. For an illegal seeking work, there is no job too demeaning, to low paying.

    So whose fault is it that they come? The federal government for making laziness and irresponsibility traits that come with a pay check and a free home? Ours, for allowing ourselves to become a nation filled with those who would rather live off someone else than to have the pride of personal responsibility? The illegal who comes with no such ideals and is willing to do the jobs that welfare recipients are unwilling to do? The policy of political correctness that says you cannot shun those who are not willing to carry their own load?

    We talk of entitlement reform, yet it is alwasy Social Security and M/M that is talked about. What about welfare reform? What about telling people that if they have children they can’t afford, those children will be taken from them until they can? I would rather pay for orphanages than public housing. At least the kids would be educated and have some hope of breaking the cycle. Why do we give welfare to drug addicks? Or alcoholics? And when we do help those people, via our taxes, what is their responsibility? Are they required to give back, to even keep clean the public housing they live in? To provide some service, no matter how small, to the nation for their livelihood?

    You can’t cure an illness if you don’t know what the symptoms are. And for those who say it is better to let the peaches rot on the tree if I am unable to pick them myself without the aid of illegal labor, it is not just the peach that will increase in cost, but everything they buy. Until we change our national attitude about social welfare, and the responsibility of the person being helped by it, there will always be those of lesser nations trying to come here to take those jobs.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    to become citizens, then, by definition, that would be special, whether he says the word “special” or not.

  • acat

    Tell you what, go ask all the RV dealers who shut down between 1970 and 1980 as the price of oil skyrocketed and disposable incomes shrank how they liked their “readjustment” …

    Go ask all the travel agents who shut down between 1995 and 2005 due to Travelocity and its’ kin how they liked their “readjustment” .. or all the realtors who closed their offices between 2008 and today – Illinois lost something like 50%.

    Look, this is not complicated. You are assuming labor is fungible, that is, that the peach farmers can hire and train replacements, and that prices can rise to cover the difference. Econ 101 says that as the price rises, the demand decreases, so if the labor can’t be replaced – and it *can’t* be, thanks in part to welfare – then demand is going to go down.

    Mew

  • aesthete

    It’s unfortunate that ignorant* economic nationalism takes precedence over economic freedom for immigrants and businesses for you. Immigrants coming to America to work, and to go back to their home countries afterwards to improve it, has been a major and recurring feature of the American immigration experience. It occurred amongst Italian, Irish, Polish, Jewish and German immigrants, and continues to be a feature among our Hispanic and African immigrants. This is a good thing — these people create jobs and work them, and go back to their countries with ideas of liberty and a positive impression of the American society. With a properly-functioning guest worker system, we are not only creating economic wealth and fostering economic liberty — we are also exporting a fleet of grassroots diplomats who bring back not only coin to their native countries, but also ideas about liberty. The fraction who decide to stay here and become citizens are also a boon to our society, for the reasons you note — both groups, IMO, are important if we have any hope of rekindling American pride and spirit.

    The problems that you note with employers abusing guest worker status are valid, but fixable. More importantly, they are not nearly as terrible as the problems that result from illegality.

  • aesthete

    Couldn’t have put it better myself.

  • bzip

    Fascinating – I caught a article at HotAir talking about Newt’s immigration problem and they updated the article with a debate video of Bachmann in which she says something similar to Newt not as forceful or clear as Newt but you decide after watching the video.

    The Hot Air article is:
    Gingrich

  • texabama

    I am a declared citizen (born overseas to a German and an American). My German parent has since become a naturalized American citizen. Germany doesn’t grant citizenship just by virtue of having been born there. You must have at least one grandparent who is a German citizen. Many Americans who were born there because of the U.S. military erroneously think that they have “dual citizenship” just because they were born there.

  • royatblov8

    1. Figure out a way to get the American Voter Population as concerned about our country as they are about Football, Movies, or even What’s for Supper?

    2. Find common sense Americans that are Honest and send them to Washington.

    3. Figure out how to prevent the corruption of those Americans once they get to Washington.

    Complete these three steps and we are off to the races.

    For more articles, see http://www.blov8.com … Thanks

  • romansdaughter

    I was reading somewhere maybe even on this website where Michele Bachmann actually voted for in-state tuition for illegals in MN. Is this true? If so she is a really big hypocrite. Hey, I really appreciate your enthusiasm for Gov Perry, you inspire me. Thanks!

  • bzip

    I read that same thing somewhere too but I think it was in a blog without any reference. I haven’t had a chance to check it out but Bachmann sure is full of it most of the time so it wouldn’t surprise me.

    She still continues to hit Newt on this amnesty thing. She now ties Newt to Bush’s guest worker program in 2004 as one of the supporters. Thing is she seems to suggest the same support as Newt in this video of her :-) .

    Bachmann dings Gingrich over immigration – again
    http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/11/26/bachmann-dings-gingrich-over-immigration-again/

  • romansdaughter

    I saw the same video clip that you showed on hotair;American Parchment; NewsMax and various other news on line and I thought the same thing what a hypocrite,

  • avagreen

    http://www.senate.leg.state.mn.us/journals/2005-2006/20050505053.pdf#Page11

    “It turns out that Bachmann voted for a similar measure in 2005 while serving in the Minnesota Senate. The language, which was included in a larger higher education funding bill, would have allowed students who had attended a Minnesota high school for three years or more, had graduated and had enrolled in public Minnesota college to pay in-state tuition.

    During debate of the bill, Bachmann spoke in support of an amendment that would have required such students to be legal residents as well. ”
    per http://minnesota.publicradio.org/collections/special/columns/polinaut/archive/2011/09/in-state_tuitio.shtml

  • romansdaughter

    Thanks for the info and Bachmann is really going downhill in my books.

  • bzip

    Thanks millions avagreen. This is what we need. Talk about a hypocrite, Bachmann is as big of a hypocrite as they come. How dare she hit Rick Perry over this issue in the debate when she in fact voted for it herself. That is sick. Somebody needs to really call her out on this.

  • avagreen

    ;)

  • satchman3

    You’ve been talking about de facto amnesty for a while. In some ways it would be like our state government deciding to rescind the de facto amnesty we enjoy on use taxes not being collected on internet purchases. Even going so far to collect back taxes and penalties.

    Ending the de facto amnesty is really more like a new policy and you have to at least consider grandfathering existing violators. I’m not yet sure to what extent I agree with you but it’s an angle I hadn’t considered or understood.

  • redmymind

    n/t

  • bzip

    I sure wish we could get the MSM to take note and perhaps some of the other candidates. Somebody needs to expose her for what she is, a true lying hypocrite.

    Thanks again avgreen, that was a real kicker :-) .

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    favor applying existing citizenship laws to all illegals, no matter their years of residency and even after the border is secure. So that would not be special rights.

  • BA Cyclone

    Funny, that’s just what retire05 is advocating.

    The Government is *always* in the market as long as there is a “minimum wage”.

    The Market should determine the wage, not the Government.

  • BA Cyclone

    and deleting the bookmark, and blocking it from your favorite browser.

    Allowing stupidity like this to enter your worldview might cause irreversible, willfully ignorant choices in the future.

  • cwilson

    Because that’s the only thing it does. Now, I admit I didn’t provide the links, but…you just called something-of-which-you-have-zero-knowledge “stupid”. You have no knowledge because I didn’t post it.

    So…try again: From the Senate Judiciary Committee hearing, the pro-legalization forces said here: “We anticipated that existing immigration enforcement activities, coupled with the pending reform legislation, would leave agriculture without a significant, sufficient legal authorized work force.”

    “Mr. Chairman, I believe we all can acknowledge that American agriculture, particularly the labor intensive segment of the industry

  • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

    First of all, elimination of illegal aliens will likely lead to development of mechanical harvesters for crops currently being manually harvested.

    Now then, the actual statement you made upthread that BA challenged was this:

    …the US agriculture sector is the LEAST mechanized of any developed nation. Everybody else is already using much more mechanization…

    and the thousand or so words in your little screed don’t address that statement. Got a link for that stupidity?

  • Raven

    We’re only talking about whether or not to enforce the law.

    That should not be a discussion at all. Enforce the bloody law.
    Right now we’re just encouraging illegals to come and to stay by suggesting that if they hang out long enough, they’ll get a free pass.
    What we need to be encouraging them to do is get out and stay out until they are permitted to join us by the proper, legal channels.

  • wennejunk

    If you try to get citizens, homeless, kids, etc doing work that Unions get paid for, you’re wasting your time.

  • cwilson

    I can’t find that link. The article was specifically talking about Japan — given their demographic issues, difficulty finding native Japanese to take ag jobs, and their cultural aversion to almost any form of immigration, the rise in mechanized agriculture is predictable. However, in a parenthetical it mentioned relative mechanization rates in developed countries. I really WISH I could find that article again.

    But, I can’t. Sorry. I’m just stupid, and should simply accept your patronizing comments about my “total idiocy.” I’m sure someone as brilliant as you obviously are has never read an article, remembered the content, but forgot the citation.

    And…mbecker, when’s the last time you read the little line below the comment box? The one that says “Be respectful, or be banned. No Profanity.” Why does this not apply to you?

    Oh, right. You’re a moderator. Some animals are more equal than others.

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