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Rape, Abortion, and the Moral High Ground

Recently, a long term friend and I got into a discussion about abortion over a few glasses of scotch. The debate devolved quickly into an outright fight. I held firm in the position that abortion was either a form of murder, and was therefore wrong in all instances where the physical life of the mother wasn’t threatened, or it wasn’t. The friend insisted that there must be exceptions in instances of rape or incest.

What really angered me in this exchange was the faultiness of his logic and his insistence that I was in error because I was allowing my faith to dictate my political opinion on the matter. First, the logic he employed in his defense was that I could never understand the circumstances of a woman impregnated due to rape. I reject this flat out because it assumes that I am incapable of being empathetic to the situation unless I allow for the premeditated murder of an innocent. His counter to my claim the child was innocent was to claim the child is, by nature of the act in which it was conceived, a “bad seed”, a claim I find highly ironic coming from someone who rejects the moral arguments against abortion.

I attempted to demonstrate the faultiness of his argument by arguing that he, as a white man, could never understand the plight of a black man, or an illegal alien, and therefore he should never argue against reparations or amnesty. Of course it would be absurd, and harmful to society in the whole, to pair down what issues one may opine on based on gender, race, or ethnicity, yet when it comes to abortion many have no problem cozying up to this illogical and balkanizing form of argumentation.

Even though I know that these are direct parallels to his logic, he refused to acknowledge the fact and attempted to paint me as being nothing but a Jesus zombie, simply parroting dogma rather than having struggled with the legal and logical aspects of abortion in America.

When he realized that I would not relent, he went into a long diatribe about how I had changed since I started attending church regularly again, something I have been doing for all but two years of the time he has known me. The end of the evening came when I finally said to him that if he is so offended by my faith, maybe we should cease being friends.

I am sharing this experience in light of the recent gaffe by Rep. Akin because I believe his gaffe is a byproduct of an environment in politics that encourages us to be offended by, if not outright hostile to, positions based on Judeo-Christian morality.

Social Conservatives are often encouraged to soften their tones, to refer to objective science when arguing issues of morality, as a way to skirt past the objections of those who get an icky feeling in there stomach when God enters the discussion. Many Christians are familiar with that icky feeling, typically we refer to it as the Holy Spirit convicting us, but I digress.

As a movement, we do ourselves a disservice when we reach for quasi-scientific arguments in favor of our moral positions. The honest truth is that we fail because we are scared to stand on the principle itself and open ourselves to attacks and gaffes as Akin did.

We allow people like President Obama to capture the moral high ground when he says “Rape is rape.

“Rape is rape, and the idea that we should be parsing and qualifying and slicing up what types of rape we’re talking about doesn’t make sense to the American people, and certainly doesn’t make sense to me.”

I appreciate the clarity that Obama provides here, and I say that only half mockingly. You see, I also believe murder is murder, and parsing and qualifying and slicing up what types of murder we are talking about doesn’t make sense to the American people, and certainly doesn’t make sense to me. The left and President Obama parse, qualify, and slice up what types of abortions are murder and which ones are legitimate ways of relieving a “burden” with nary a peep coming from the media.

And they get away with this largely because we are told not to stand up for our own moral principles. We are condemned by our opponents and friends alike when we mention that there are areas that are strictly black and white, allowing for no grey.

This shouldn’t be taken as an excuse to act like a cold hearted hardliner either. Many times there is an opportunity to make an emotional connection while making a logical argument. The case of abortions due to rape is an example where the emotional connection would prove fruitful.

To that end, I will go back to the story I shared at the beginning of this post.

A few days after the argument with my friend I went to talk to my mother about the entire incident. My mother is politically active and also has a lifetime of experience as a nurse. Unbeknownst to me, in my almost 36 years of existence, my mother was the product of a rape.

My mother has been responsible for saving countless number of lives in her 30 year career as a nurse. She worked mid shifts in the Maricopa County Hospital Emergency Room. She worked in the NICU in the same hospital. She worked as a crew member nurse on a flight for life helicopter at various points in her career. Today she works as a hospice nurse comforting those waiting on the inevitable.

This woman, my mother, has dedicated her entire adult life to saving others. To my friend, she was a “bad seed” whose life should have been snuffed out before even beginning, all because her father was incapable of controlling the lust that lived within him.

I am sure my friend never even considered the possible lives that would be lost if my mother had been aborted. In fact, he couldn’t have because he didn’t know my mother was the product of a rape.

God has a funny way of reaffirming our faith. In my case he used a friend accusing me of being controlled by my faith to show me how I have grown in my faith and further caused information to be revealed to me that reaffirmed why I am pro-life.

The bottom line is this: If Barack Obama, Claire McCaskill, and the majority of the Democratic Party had their druthers, my mother would have been killed in the womb. The people my mother saved would have missed out on the care she provided. If exceptions for rape would have been in place in 1955, I may have never existed.

Never the less, President Obama will be praised for wanting my mother dead, all because we have created an environment where morality isn’t in itself worthy of being defended. Not to mention life.

COMMENTS

  • wbcoleman

    One must respect the religious position of those who believe that abortion is murder. We must recognize, however, that this is a minority position. That doesn’t mean it’s wrong, but it does mean that a democracy is not going to enact it into law. The fervor of those holding the position is irrelevant and I want to ask: What’s more important? Electing Republicans, or campaigning on an issue that will elect Democrats?

  • http://jeffemanuel.net Jeff Emanuel

    Speaking out against murder, or electing silent accomplices?

  • jimmaloney

    but the products of our families, our experiences, our enemies and our friends…

    …we did not ask to be born-neither shall we know the day when we will die…

    inside those points of light and darkness we have only one thing to carry us through: TRUST

    and whether you believe in God or you do not-all of us believe in that: TRUST

  • Viet71

    Repeal Roe v. Wade.

    Let each state decide.

  • Aaron Gardner

    nt

  • sarg01

    … the actual offense was using shoddy “facts” to provide political cover for a matter of principles. He made this worse by using the phrase “legitimate rape”.

    I know he didn’t mean the rape itself was legitimate, but he is suggesting the definition of rape may be much too loosely applied. That’s not completely off the reservation for discussion, but it’s quite a sensitive point to start with.

    He should have stopped with “we shouldn’t kill a child under anything short of life-threatening circumstances and even then it’s a tragedy” and not tried to provide backup suggesting that a rape exclusion really doesn’t affect many women.

  • AceInTX

    and I want to add my voice to yours in this…I get tired if being told I have to modify, soften and moderate my views to salve someone’s ego who holds an opposing view.

    I will say this….where using logic to make u=our arguments as opposed to using faith as the central part of the argument is concerned.

    It boggles my mind that people of high intelligence and sound reasoning ability can’t grasp the inconsistency in holding two directly opposing views when it comes to abortion…that being:

    1) Abortion is wrong because it takes a Human life and is the equivalent of murder because the product of abortion is the end of a person.

    2) Abortion should be allowed in cases of rape and incest as if the resulting product of rape or incest is not a person and therefore an abortion in such cases is not murder.

    One doesn’t have to be a person of faith to grasp the illogical nature of such a position and and to my mind religion doesn’t have to be part of the discussion. To me it is shear idiocy to believe a product of a loving coupling is a person and is worthy of protection as such under the law….while believing that the same product that results from rape or incest is not a person and is therefore worthy of extermination as mere vermin.

    That said…I don’t for a second condone toning down our faith based arguments and am adamant that we are commanded in scripture to give full voice to our faith in our redemptive LORD and SAVIOR and we are sinning by denying him in order to salve the fragile egos of those who do not yet know him.

    I pray for your friend, that he will come to know our LORD and know you are doing the same…

  • Melody Warbington (rwm52)

    As I noted in my comments on EE’s diary (here, here and here), we have allowed the left to dictate the terms of the discussion on abortion to the point that we hide the ugliness of what it is.

    God bless you and your mother.

  • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

    It goes without saying that Akin set back the prolife movement by representing the noble prolife position as medically ignorant and insensitive to victims of crime. His own apology admitted that.

    Given the choice between putting up winnable squishes and principled losers, my answer is: Support winnable principled conservatives. It’s not being prolife that sinks Akin, it’s what he said that represents it so poorly.

    Stopping Obama’s next SCOTUS Appt is important, and all the other stuff that comes with a Senate majority.
    So lets get a winable prolifer in there before its too late.

    Memo from Missouri: Akin will lose …
    http://hotair.com/archives/2012/08/20/is-todd-akin-going-to-drop-out/

    “I live in Missouri and I can tell you that he not only will lose to Air Claire if be stays in the race, but be puts the state in play for Obama because he is a bogeyman to rally a currently listless base.

    Republicans and conservatives will not vote for Claire, but they will not vote for him in large numbers.

    I voted for Brunner. Business man, political outsider. The reason Akin won was because of Democrat cross over urged on by the Dems because McCaskill

  • AceInTX

    Bravo!!

  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    Most people who think that abortion is murder do not somehow think it does not become murder in some cases.

    What we are doing is bowing to the will of the majority. It is perfectly all right to take an absolutist stance as you do. But have a little understanding that if everyone took your all or nothing approach, guess what?

    We would have NO limitations at all on abortion on demand everywhere.

    The best way to change things is to convince people of your views. It can be done, To some extent pro-life views are already gaining ground. But being angry and hamfisted in your approach is usually counter-productive.

  • jamesm

    Murdering is defined as killing. Killing is ending a life. Science has proven that a fetus feels pain. This is a scientific truth and a logical truth that an act of abortion ends existence of the fetus. However people justify their actions does not make it untrue that a fetus was killed. The pro-death crowd are selfish to not find the truth. Why would you want to elect someone who is dumb ass on such a basic fact? As for me I don’t elect democrats. The issue is education the illogical and spiritually dead.

  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    nt

  • Putter

    I was hoping Akin could cobble together a coherent response to his critics on Hannity today, but I was disappointed. I don’t know who is giving him advice, but he is not well served. If I had been advising him, the response would have been something like this….

    “The thought I was trying to convey is that I am uncomfortable killing a child just because his father is a criminal”.

    Obviously, that should have been his response to Huck’s question, but better late than never.

  • westcoastpatriette

    this sentence in your diary carries the secret to how we will end abortion in America: “Many Christians are familiar with that icky feeling, typically we refer to it as the Holy Spirit convicting us, but I digress.”

    It is only the conviction of the Holy Spirit that can change hearts of stone and bring the conviction necessary to open our eyes to the horror of sacrificing children on the altar of Baal such as we are doing daily in the U.S. Therefore, I find prayer an essential tactic to bring about a revival in our land and an end to abortion including pregnancies resulting from rape or incest.

    Thanks for telling your mom’s beautiful story.

  • Ausonius

    …if Biden had made the comments. :)

    And both sides realize this, but the GOP side cannot win here, by definition.

  • runner12

    abortion, none at all. My problem was the insensitive and innane comment he made using the term “legitimate rape” and making a statement that he had no factual evidence to back up. This is why even pro-life Conservatives are suggesting he step aside.

    I do not believe this is a case of Akin standing up on conviction, in fact I think he got himself into this mess by trying to explain away his position using some made-up idea. If the man had simply stated his position was due to his faith and the reasonings put forth in this diary, I would be defending the man today instead of suggesting he drop out.

  • texasref

    No state can deprive its citizens of life without due process of law, so any state that legalized abortion would have to be overturned by the national government. Federal trumps state.

    So, no, let’s not let each state decide.

  • runner12

    It took a lot of courage for your mother’s mother to keep her baby in that circumstance. She has been rewarded by producing a woman who has probably saved many lives. NICU nurses are some of the most loving, capable, hard-working nurses around. Added to that she was a medi-flight nurse and is now doing hospice!

    That is one talented medical professional. You should be proud.

  • texasref

    I have to say I second Melody’s praise of your article. I was moved by how your mother chose the perfect opportunity to share her experience with you to give you the wisdom to handle the aftermath of your argument with grace and strength. If you’re half the person your mother is, then you’re doing great, Aaron.

  • wbcoleman

    Attempts to persuade are fine. Threatening to enact a minority view is a sure recipe for the election of the likes of Obama, Reid, and Pelosi.

  • gmscan

    I agree that abortion should be outlawed, even for rape and incest. Yes, it is a burden on the mother, but carrying an unwanted child is a small price to pay compared to killing that child. We should ensure that she gets all the financial, medical, and emotional support she needs to help her through this trial. If Akin made that argument, I would stand with him.

    But instead he was arguing something else — even now I’m not sure what, but it seemed to be minimizing rape because of what he (Akin) knows about women’s bodies. Huh? Akin is not essential to winning in MO. There were two other fine people on the ballot. He should step aside in favor of one of them.

  • Breeanne Howe

    Aaron, you have won the internet today with this post. Amazingly powerful. Seriously love this. Thank you for sharing!

  • kowalski

    And his opposition to the death penalty. While I was thinking of him I couldn’t help but remember his role on “M.A.S.H.” and of course I wanted to be reminded of Farrell’s performances, and also Alan Alda’s.

    One of the gravest moments in M.A.S.H. history was the episode with Hawkeye committed to a mental hospital being treated by Dr. Sidney Freedman and visited by B.J. “No Death Penalty” Mike Farrell. The episode is: “Goodbye, Farewell and Amen.”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYjy7uUn7fc

    The reason Hawkeye has been committed is that he witnessed (and feels as though he precipitated, actually he directly caused) the murder of an infant child at the hands of its own mother. He has a tremendous emotional defining moment at about 1:59 in that video. Watch the tears. Watch the drama.

    Since Roe V. Wade was made the law of the land, an average of 1.4 million children a year have been aborted in the United States through medically-sanctioned and Government Guaranteed abortion. Hawkeye and BJ aren’t running around the country making any effort to stop the atrocities. Even if 1 in 50 of medical abortions result in the destruction of a viable child who was needlessly aborted – and it’s a lot more than that – that means that abortion murders 28,000 children in the United States EVERY YEAR.

    You don’t hear BJ and Hawkeye crying about those numbers. They’re the most ghastly liberal hypocrites in the Universe. During the time M.A.S.H. was filming, of course, Hawkeye was a ladies’ man. No nurse was safe, and that showed how “loving” he was.

    I wonder how many abortions were done on Hawkeye’s children over there in that fake Hollywood hospital?

  • Next93

    I recenlty heard a discussion on the radio about the legal ramifications of Roe v Wade. The commentator (Jason Lewis, my long-time favorite) was trying to steer the discussion away from the morality of abortion itself, and instead focus on the way the SCOTUS tortured the constitution to come up with a federal nexus to what should clearly be a state matter. The woman he was talking to finally said in exasperation “Because men don’t carry babies, that’s why!”

    I found myself thinking: “I’ve carried babies. I’ve carried them to bed, I’ve carried them to the doctor, I’ve carried them to school, I’ve carried them to graduation, and college, first job and first apartment and first cat. Some day, if I’m lucky enough, I’ll carry them down the aisle, and eventually I’ll carry THIER babies. What more do you want?”

    Or, to put it another way; I’ve devoted myself to three children born live, and I’ve greived over one stillborn (that I delivered with my own hands). I’ve put a roof over thier heads, food in thier bellies, and shoes on thier feet. I’ve scrimped and saved to provide them a collective 36 years of the best education I could afford, and I’ve taken on absurd levels of debt to co-sign college loans. For the sake of my children, I walked away from a chance to be part of history, passed up a chance to make a buttload of money, and knowingly condemned by sideline business to death by refusing to take the risks needed to make it successful. I’ve spent years in pain because I wouldn’t go through elective surgery while my children were dependent on me. And if I had the chance to do it again, I wouldn’t change a thing.

    After all that, are you REALLY going to try to tell me that some 14 year-old girl, by dint of her all-knowing uterus, has a right to an opinoin on this matter and I don’t?

  • mt2az

    Aren’t religious and don’t have faith, doesn’t help. There are plenty of religious people, denominations, sects, and in fact, entire religions with different stances on this issue.

    You can’t call for them to be less hostile to your religious beliefs, while not only denying them the same, but in fact, denying that they’re even people of faith.

  • kowalski

    At his own website. Here’s one of his explanations:

    http://www.mikefarrell.org/activist/deathpenalty.html

    “Clearly not everyone shares his views on the death penalty. Some believe it is appropriate under certain circumstances for the state to take a life. Those who hold to that view, though, “must not only examine the issue on an abstract moral or philosophical plane, but should look carefully at the reality of what a death penalty system truly means in a society such as ours – what it does, who it impacts, who it serves – and what our moral obligation is with regard to the mistakes it makes.”

    You’ll notice that he doesn’t concern himself anywhere in his writing on that website or through his activism with the “mistakes” the Abortion System makes. As someone who played a doctor on TV, it’s not a concern of his, and it’s not, apparently, part of what he considers to be a “moral obligation” to examine.

  • califgal

    seem to understand nature…until it comes to this issue of the child of the rapist. Then, all understanding of “natural,” of what hardwiring of the brain has evolved goes out the window.

  • redriderpurplesage

    He was the choice of CONSERVATIVES to challenge McCaskill and he is the one to carry the fight through.

    The Democrats would LOVE to see the Republican Party demolish Mr. Akin. Why would we want to give in to them?

    Mr. Akin spoke without thinking, something Joe Biden does every day. He apologized–time to let this incident go and elect Todd Akin in November.

  • mt2az

    Supported and worked for Akin, because they knew he would eventually say or do something like this and get taken down, throwing what should have been an easy win for us to the Democrats. And a whole lot of less myopic Republicans supported someone else for the same reason. I’d love to say I Told You So… but I probably don’t post enough around here for that.

  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    Wayne Rogers, the guy who played Trapper John, turned out to be an arch conservative pro business squawker on those talking head business shows.

    By the way. Mike Farrel is a ridiculous left wing hypocrite.

  • JSobieski

    Prior to Roe, the punishment for abortion was the equivalent to manslaughter. We have different degrees of criminal sanctions because there a’re different degrees of culpability and different degrees of mens rea.

    All that said, treating incest as a separate category makes no sense. It is the involuntary nature of the pregnancy that could at least in theory be to great a burden to bear. If voluntary, the relationship of the father is not logically relevant. If involuntary, then the relationship of the assailant is similarly irrelevant.

    At a minimum, rape is a mitigating factor…if our justice system is to be coherent

  • wbcoleman

    Then why did Claire McCaskill contribute $2 million to Todd Akin’s primary campaign?

  • jamesm

    position unless you are in a lib dem district. These are my brothers and sisters who seek the truth. Some conservatives are just not very good candidates. Conservatives need to become very articulate. Science, morality and the unborn are in their corner. Now having said that the MSM is infected with flawed liberal thinking. It is not about enacting a certain point of view but finding and advocating the truth. Conservatism is fundamentally about truth.

  • macwell

    for allowing me to partake of hearing your wonderful story. I use partake for a reason. Imho God does allow us to be comforted by our shared adventures on this earth, so I partake in the blessing God has granted you by hearing you proclaim His greatness in it all.

    We have much at stake this November. We must do all that we can do to bring America back to her once proud place. The world needs us now more than ever.
    So not only must we remove all who believe that America needs to be “fundamentally transformed”, we must give Romney/Ryan a majority in the Senate. Too bad we had to lose a seat by the words of one man, that just means we have to work harder. If I’m not mistaken, there are enough democrat seats up for grab, it’ll just take more of us to vote, many more would be great so the election isn’t decided by a judge.

  • floridaveteran

    Since
    Article XIV states:
    1: All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

    The only question is, ‘are the pre-born people?’ If so then the above article states, “…No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.” If the pre-born are not people then they can be used in any experiment or cloning by anybody. They can also be sold as property because if they are not people then they are property.

  • freemkts

    The issue of murder is not as black and white as many make it seem. There are lots of different laws on the books regarding murder ranging from 1st degree murder to manslaughter to self defense (which isn’t a crime). The point is murder, like life itself, is complicated, It depends on the circumstances and to say that all abortions are murder is just not true. Not all murders are murder.

    Now as far as abortion goes I think that allowing exceptions for rape is the right thing morally. Rape is a horrible crime, one that goes unpunished too often. It takes an incredible amount of courage for women to stand up and confront their rapist and demand justice. In doing so women are often ridicluled, blamed for the event and have their behavior put on trial. It is unacceptable to me that a women who is raped and impregnated have no remedy under the law to put the horrific event behind her.

    I get that other people have other points of view. Abortion is a tough subject. Rape should not be. And as a political matter this is a no brainer. As passionately as the Akin fans feel about their position they must realize that it is one that is only shared by 20% of the country. That’s Ron Paul territory. That’s up there with Newt wanting to colonize the moon. The GOP can’t support every extremist position that someone holds. Akin has to go and he has to go right now.

  • floridaveteran

    You have identified the logical end of the pro-abortion argument, which is unlimited abortions at any time of gestation or even after the baby has survived the abortion attempt. See Obama aye vote for killing living humans that survived the abortion attempt by putting the human babies in a closet to die!

  • jamesm

    but intentional ending a being (killing) is another. Societies thruout history have different forms of punishment or there be no punishment (i.e war) I do agree there are mitigating factors to be considered. It’s quite mockable to see a lib defend the right of some harvest mouse or some fish but will advocate potential killing a future human being. Twisted

  • kowalski

    That even if the rate at which our abortion system kills children is 10 times more seldom (1 in 500 instead of 1 in 50) than I just mentioned, that’s still about 2,800 murdered children a year.

    And NONE of those children ever had to go to trial, by definition. They were completely innocent.

    But when Mike Farrell was lionized at Northwestern University for being one of the leading lights that caused former Illinois Governor George Ryan to furlough everyone on death row, nobody had the temerity to mention that fact at all.

    Even if I’m off by a factor of *5,000* it’s still 280.

    Even if I’m off by a factor of *50,000* it’s still 28.

    I don’t think I’m off by anywhere near that much.

    Hawkeye and BJ should do nothing but walk around screaming and crying every day of their lives because of all the dead babies.

  • Aaron Gardner

    Reading is fundamental.

  • http://lazarusreport.blogtownhall.com/ Tom Lesser

    The issue for many was the statement that a “legitimately” raped woman would not get pregnant.

  • Aaron Gardner

    I ask because I think you clearly didn’t understand the point of my post.

  • PowerToThePeople

    and not worthy of a reply, but going to anyways.

    I know you felt real pious typing these words and thought yourself to be the more intelligent person because you are so willing to meet in the middle and allow those women who had a crime committed against them to end the pregnancy just so they could feel better.

    Problem is, you are just an uninformed pansy who can no longer find your testicles. I have more colorful words to call you, but I am only going to push the line on this site so far.

    So since it is obvious your IQ is too low to understand a brilliant retort, going to go the simple path and use points instead:

    1) Rape is horrible, but killing an innocent in the whole thing does nothing to dissuade the pain, victim’s guilt, depression, etc. So your point falls flat.

    2) No scientific study shows that aborting the child helps the healing process. In fact, the opposite is true. Plenty of studies to show the serious mental and physical risks to abortion. Way to add on the damage to the victim there Cletus.

    3) Not one study out there shows a woman can not care for the child just as much and as well as a child born of love.

    4) Plenty of people out there wanting to adopt a newborn, so much that the waiting list is up to 4 years in many areas of the country.

    5) Your argument that there are different levels of murder is so absurdly out of place in this debate, I have to assume you are a moron. Even if you wanted to use that argument, the very act of abortion is extremely premeditated that it would always qualify for the 1st degree.

    6) We do not kill the innocents in this country to make ourselves feel better about something horrible that happened to us. If we could, I would go kill the mother of the guy who robbed my home in Folly Beach so I could feel better about the whole thing. It would not help, but she made him right? She not only birthed the bum, she raised him. But I can not kill her because of the actions of her son.

    And Last but by no means, last,

    A conviction is a conviction. You either believe in something or you do not. It does not matter how few people like what you believe, you stand like a man for what you believe in, or woman of course. Right does not suddenly become wrong just because 80% feel that way. In fact, right is right even if 99.999% are against you. See, that is what makes one a man or a woman, and having no testicular fortitude to stand for what is right is what defines cowards. Guess where you fall………..

    Akin stays, and those of us who are not whining ass cowards will support him. We are not worried about what the bitches of the world feel about that.

  • ThePoliticalHat

    Why is the exception referred to as “rape and incest” and not just “rape”? Wouldn’t “rape” cover most of the scenarios that would involve incest (e.g. kid gets molested by her pedophile scum of a “father”)? I am honestly curious to know.

    The only reason I could envision someone including incest as something in addition to rape is if they believe that having two biological parents that are too closely related, makes the child less of a human or acceptable to kill when it would otherwise be abhorrent. Making exceptions for the “genetically undesirable” is repugnant.

  • jamesm

    nt

  • DONTREADONME

    4 years ago. Funny how things change. I guess we should just revert back to the majority opinion for the sake of the Senate. FTR, I think he should withdraw for these statements. Glad to see the right still brings out the circular firing squad/snark off

  • mt2az

    It’s fairly clear that you’re casting yourself as a person of faith, and them as, well, not. All throughout you refer to their attacks on your religious beliefs, the implication being that they don’t in fact share that same faith.

  • checkmate2012

    you said Akin must go. It’s seems contradictory given your previous statements.

    I understand that this is an emotional issue for all. Erick didn’t call for Akin to step down. Obama decided to hold a surprise presser for the 1st time in months to highlight this issue- it was no accident for him to capitalize on Republicans throwing our own under the bus.

    Akin’s remarks were inflamatory and stupid and shows his lack of ignorance by pretending to be some kind of medical expert. He has aplogized profusely.

    Clinton pushed himself on women (it’s rape if a woman says no in my book), was impeached and he’s the headliner at the DNC!

    Biden accused Republicans of wanting to enslave Black people again. Alan Grayson said Reps. want seniors to die faster! I could list 100′s of over the top rhetoric from the Left and so can ya’ll. A Kennedy killed a young lady.

    I don’t know what all Akin stands for on many issues, but I know Claire needs to go. I hope his former candidates can win if he decides to drop out this late in the game.

    But for the life of me, do we have to give the Left more ammo? Can we not circle the wagons and say we disagree with one statement, he was wrong, he admits he was wrong, and move on? We are all asked to move on constantly but apparently not when it’s a Republican. I am not condoning what he said, but think we could isolate it and move on. Which side put this in the spotlight? Romney said he condoned it this a.m. and that’s what got O to the press lecturn.

    I’m disgusted with the handling of the whole situation this close to the most important election of our lives. O Team is having a heyday & managed to deflect all the momenum R&R have gained in the last 10 days.

    Either we keep this up or we set it aside to live another day in a free county.

  • Aaron Gardner

    Either quote the post to prove you point, or retract.

  • AceInTX

    If you believe that it is wrong to kill a product of consensual sex because you are committing murder while at the same time being of the opinion that you should be allowed to kill what is the same product of rape….you have simply jumped the logical shark….it’s as simple as that.

    We can argue the political and policy goals of limiting as many abortions all you want…and how best to accomplish that goal….but I’m simply making an observation that some people are trying to make a logical argument to justify an illogical position.

  • dvdmsr

    defines my unborn child as a living Human being, specifically a Homo sapiens, and the U.S. legal code defines Homo sapiens as legal persons; we

  • Next93

    I’m honestly not trying to be snarky here, but I can’t think of a relgion that doesn’t have serious problems with the whole concept of abortion.

  • californiasquish

    When I talk to my liberal friends about this issue, they think there’s a line between an egg that had been fertilized a minute ago and the third trimester where it goes from ‘not-murder’ to ‘murder’. Many liberals support charging someone who kills a very pregnant women with two murders, for instance.

    I’ve never met anyone who is ‘pro-abortion,’ though I’m sure they exist. I do know people who think women should have the option, but only when it fits a certain set of rules.

    And for the record, I have no idea where and when life begins, and I hope beyond measure I’ll never be put in the position of having to decide. Cop out? Definitely.

    AG, I was very moved by this diary.

  • Ausonius

    This is the ultimate argument against Leftists who insist on using laboratory terminology (fetus, embryo, etc.) to disguise the reality that a human life is being taken.

    No one can predict what sort of person will develop from the chance combination of millions of genes at conception. No computer can predict how the DNA will take shape. Look at the great variations inside of any family. I once had fraternal twins as students: the one was over 6 feet tall, very blond, with a pinkish-reddish complexion and tiny eyes, while the other was 8 inches shorter, with thick dark brown hair and rather wide eyes.

    The hidden objection in the “rape argument” is that people believe the child is guaranteed to be or to become a sociopath like the attacker. This is scientifically ridiculous, of course, but because of the emotions involved, many people shrug and think the rape-exception argument is well founded.

    No, it isn’t.

  • califgal

    who rape or murder or otherwise commit mayhem?

  • floridaveteran

    Abortion is killing a human being by hiring the killer. That is 1st degree murder under any law in the US.

  • Leon H. Wolf

    However, I am perfectly happy to just flat out say that I distrust the moral compass of anyone who thinks it ought to be legal to kill certain human beings based on where they are in their stages of development. More germane to this discussion, I also have no patience with the stupid, reading-comprehension-challenged comments they tend to leave in every single RS story on the topic. So either prove up your assertion, apologize, or I boot you. No difference to me either way.

  • freemkts

    Romney has condemed Akin. The RSCC has cut him off. Reince Priebus said he needs to drop out. Karl Rove and the Tea Party Express are against him. Now how the hell can anyone win with the enirety of your own party against you? To try would be an expression of vanity.

    In 2010 Harry Reid should have lost except the GOP picked the one person in the entire state of NV that couldn’t win. This is deja vu. If Akin stays the GOP loses that race and we all have to hope that Scott Brown, no conservative, can beat back the tidal wave of liberals in MA in order to give the GOP a chance of winning the Senate. Anyone other Akin has a better chance of winning than Scott Brown.

    As far as the outrageous behavior of Democrats that you mentioned I don’t care what they do. They GOP should be better. If they want to defend the worst of their lot that’s their business. I’m sick and tired of Republicans doing the same. Every time we do we not only lose, but allow people like Nancy Pelosi to say the Dems will “drain the swamp.” We should drain it ourselves.

  • civil truth

    This issue perhaps is one of the clearest illustrations of the mindset/spirit behind law vs. grace – the latter being carrying the baby to term.

    The moral arguments for grace need to be understood and propagated by those how value life.

    However, the same law vs. grace considerations do make me more ambivalent about using the law to outlaw abortions following rape or incest. – though it would take me more time to crystallize my position in written form than I can take right now.

    The battle needs to be fought and won at the individual and community level.

  • mt2az

    This is how you portray a particular abortion supporter:

    “…attempted to paint me as being nothing but a Jesus zombie, simply parroting dogma…”

    That’s not generally how one portrays a fellow Christian, but rather how one portrays an irreligious or secular person.

    And you follow that up with this:

    “…I believe [Akin's] gaffe is a byproduct of an environment in politics that encourages us to be offended by, if not outright hostile to, positions based on Judeo-Christian morality.”

    And once again you portray yourself as a Christian, and your opponents as people who either aren’t Christians, or who object to Christian teachings. As well as the idea that there were some uniformity to those teachings that you all hold.

    Now, if I’ve gotten this all wrong, and you believe that abortion supporters are in fact just as religious and faithful and good and moral as you, then I’m sorry. But I believe you were saying something entirely different.

  • dvdmsr

    nt

  • floridaveteran

    nt

  • JSobieski

    I do disagree somewhat on the continuum between innocent and guilty of 1st degree murder.

    Self defense is filled with lots of grey, as are the mitigating factors for manslaugher.

    In my view, a debate on the abortion issue should include the context of the criminal justice system as it exists for other crimes.

  • floridaveteran

    Everybody’s life is sacred and should not be taken from them except by “…nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.” (Article 14, section 1, US Constitution)

  • floridaveteran

    Biology states life begins at conception. From that point the baby is developing, he/she is a human being at the moment of conception with a unique DNA code. It is NOT the mother’s body.

    I know many people that are pro-abortion. How would you describe people that are for partial birth abortions?

    Yes some states, such as CA, have the murder of a mother carrying a baby (fetus) as double murder but if the mother decides to murder her baby then it is OK.

  • PowerToThePeople

    and I expect the asshats will soon feel your wrath.

    Patience for stupidity is not one of your virtues and that is a great thing.

  • jamesm

    in the future,,,until it happens.

  • PowerToThePeople

    or how it was looked upon back then, that has spit to do with the debate.

    We only put people in prison for a few years for raping our children, is that the line that should define the punishment for those POS forever?

    And mitigating factor, get real. Rape is horrible, I will give you that. But to state that somehow two parties who enter into a deal to kill an human being should be viewed more favorable just because something bad happened to the woman is ludicrous. Sounds a lot like the pedophiles who demand a light sentence just because they were molested as a kid.

    One does not have the right to hurt an innocent just because something bad happened to them. And one does not get to ask for sympathy when they plan on killing a human just because they were damaged.

  • PowerToThePeople

    and shoot them like rabid dogs. If we started doing this to all the rapist and pedophiles, our society would soon be a much safer place.

    But killing an innocent human just because some POS raped a woman is not defensible. We do not get to punish the mom and dad (shoot them like rabid dogs) of the rapist and pedos because that would not be right, we should not get to kill an unborn baby just because of the acts of its father.

  • evilbloggerlady

    The best conservatives who can win. Akin threw this away. We need to fix it.

  • poorwilber

    have nothing to do with his pro-life views. I am pro-life. However, when he used the term “legitimate” rape, implying that if a women properly resists…. she likely will not conceive a child. That comment was a political suicide. What a boneheaded statement. Once the crap is out of the bull, you can’t put it back.

    That chestnut will be played over and over, brought up in debates, press conferences etc etc…. and I hope Mr. Akin cares enough to leave the race before he finds a way for the vunerable Claire McCaskill to win.

    Yes, there is a unfair double standard, and why conservatives must be twice as smart.

  • Aaron Gardner

    First, the friend that I was conversing with isn’t an abortion supporter. In all instances not related to rape and incest he is against abortion.

    Second, this friend isn’t a believer and isn’t religious. This isn’t a slam on him, it is just a fact, one that he proudly proclaims.

    Third, just because the friend in my story isn’t a believer, and I note that fact, that doesn’t in any way mean that I believe all who support abortion are non-believers.

    Fourth, just because I note the hostility, which you ironically confirm through your objections to my post, that doesn’t mean that the hostility is exclusive to those who are not believers. In fact, there are many people who believe in God who also believe it to be uncouth to consider their spiritual beliefs when discussing politics.

    Lastly, I believe this has been an interesting object lesson in how projection can bite you in the ass.

    Good day.

  • mt2az

    Virtually all Jewish groups allow, or even require, abortion in some cases, specifically those related to the mother’s health. And the Conservative and Reform movements have more expansive allowances than that.

    I don’t particularly feel like debating this here though. I just chafe at the idea that you can divide this country into the faithful and the secular, and the faithful are all opposed to abortion, always and in any circumstance. As I said though, if that’s not what Aaron was implying, then I’m sorry for assuming he was.

  • Bill S

    Heed it.

  • Aaron Gardner

    n/t

  • fpete13527

    You cut right to the heart and truth of this issue with crystal clarity.

    Please start writing more often again.

  • Jack_Savage

    Just because I go to a garage does not make me an automobile.

    Speaking for my religion, it is my firm opinion that no one with an elemental belief and understanding of Christ can be pro- abortion. It is not scriptural in any way, I hardly believe that the Holy Spirit would lead any Christian to the conclusion that abortion was acceptable, and I believe with all my heart that those Christians who condone, much less support this great evil will face judgment in the hereafter.

    So Aaron may not be implying it, but I am saying it.

  • warrior300

    Let’s hope the national and state party pressure is so strong that Akin removes himself as the nominee by tomorrow. Brunner wins in a landslide. There is absolutely no reason why the GOP should not pickup this Missouri senate seat.

  • PowerToThePeople

    Since it is like a flood in here, really wish that person would lay off the button pushing as the King idiot just showed up.

  • Jack_Savage

    Well said sir. Bravo.

  • acat

    The closer we get to the election, the worse it gets.

    Mew

  • checkmate2012

    I guess I’m asking how high and at what price. To be clear, I abhor Akin’s remarks but think that the hate fest may allow Claire to win and we’re tossing fuel on the flame. That’s all. The voters voted him in and it would be a miracle for anyone else to swoop in and win now.

    Sorry I misspelled freemkts when I accidentally dropped the “r”- it was a typo.

  • Jack_Savage

    From a book by Candice Johnson:

    “She felt

  • checkmate2012

    about Clinton earlier. He’s a rapist and will be headlining the DNC. That’s what we get with the d’rats and yet we’re too quick to throw out one of our own for a horrid remark that he was basing on some science crap, which he no business talking about in the 1st place. I can’t know what’s in his heart.

    I’d like to hear the RNC be outraged at Clinton the rapist. Thank you.

  • 1stRichard

    Marxist socialism poisons the whole fabric of the society. It deliberately makes everyone an accomplice to its crimes, if you fall for the Populist Bandwagon you are an accomplice to murder for this issue, you are hooked and it would be almost impossible to admit to the crime.

  • demsaresatanic

    I hate to see conservatives stampeded by the America-hating Christian-hating leftist scum media.
    Btw, I like seeing you call a Drat a Drat.

  • demsaresatanic

    And you certainly may shorten my name.

  • checkmate2012

    lol- read too many comments tonight to remember who said the demscrats!

    So, do you have or can we shortened your post name? Don’t know if you saw when I asked emptybucket the same question & asked if I could call her e’bucket. PttP was insulted I didn’t ask him the same- it was quite funny. So any shortcuts? demsare’ ??

    I have to admit that it reads, “dems scare” if read quickly to me!

  • JSobieski

    are very much real considerations in all sorts of crime/punishment decisions.

    There is a lot of territory between a justified killing and first degree murder.

    In the case of rape, it is not hard to foresee that at in some instances, a pregnant woman would experience repeated trauma of her rape because the pregnancy would remind her of the experience.

    There are many instances of potentially viable criminal charges that are never raised even though the applicable individual does not have truly viable defense.

    A lot of conduct falls under the category of “imperfect self defense”. Duress, lack of mens rea, state of mind, etc. are very much at issue in criminal trials.

  • checkmate2012

    I love it and thanks to you, find it much more descriptive and easier to type quickly. Lol- but you have to truncate your post name first or else I’ll get in trouble :)

    demsare’x is good for me- x being the variable of course! Your call.

  • demsaresatanic

    And I don

  • checkmate2012

    Can’t leave it at dems for fear of folks getting the wrong idea- and yes you deserve credit; it’s just the way it is like it or not :)

    Onto other topics now…so we don’t get the threadjack :)

  • reclaimit

    argument do you leave any room for exceptions, such as capital punishment?

    I’ve had my share of libs jump down my throat for that inconsistency, since I favor the death penalty. My usual response is Biblical, and that even babies from forced, incestuous tapes where the mother’s life is in danger deserve a chance because of innocence. But once one chooses to kill, only God (through the government) should be able to claim another life as punishment. But I definitely get that “icky” look you describe.

  • Aaron Gardner

    and of course the death penalty applies only to the most extreme circumstances and is applied only after one is found guilty.

    Those who conflate this with murder usually haven’t actually thought about the differences all that much.

  • califgal

    rape is the product of lust as if that is all it is the product of.

    There is a great deal of scientific truth in the “bad seed”.

    As a woman, your mother was spared, it appears, the biochemistry of her father. His son might not be so lucky.

  • civil truth

    …and secondarily about lust. Acquaintance rape may be more frequently lust-related, I suspect, especially when it’s a “didn’t stop when asked” rape.

    Not sure that matters, though. More critically, the “bad seed” defense of abortion goes a fair distance down the slippery slope of eugenics – not to mention that the child didn’t get to pick his/her father.

  • Bill S

    Too many out there to keep track of.

  • acat

    This is going to be a long season.

    Mew

  • jh1111

    You have it wrong. No one is saying victims of rape should have abortions at all. Obama and others on the left just believe a woman should be allowed to have a choice.

  • Aaron Gardner

    Go defend Obama elsewhere.

  • http://moelane.com/ Moe Lane

    Well. Easily fixed.

  • checkmate2012

    both result in a dead person? I’m not making light of your telling story but find the two synonymous.

    Many TX convicts on death row have been found innocent due to DNA testing that wasn’t available when they were convicted. I think there was another man found innocent today matter of fact so it’s not left to extreme cases.

    Just saying murder and killing are the same when some innocent people are found guilty and put to death via capital murder. I’m for the death penalty when it’s definite without any bit of doubt.

    Lastly, how/why is it that when someone commits murder, they can reduce their sentence by pleading to some lesser charges? JSob said it earlier I think and many cases are reduced to manslaughter instead of murder. Makes no sense to me but glad you’re alive.

  • PowerToThePeople

    and you know it.

    Without sounding hard, I could care less if the unborn child reminds the mother of the rape, it still does not give her the right to murder an innocent child for the acts of its father.

    Second, there are no mitigating factors when it comes to the purposed planned killing of a human, even if the human is an unborn child. 1st degree murder is 1st degree murder. Considering the child did no wrong, what would the mitigating factors be? That his father raped the woman and he or she paid the price? Sorry, does not cut it.

    And you are really trying to stretch it if you are going to try to claim there is even one reason that a person could successfully claim imperfect self defense when it comes to the planned murder and murder contract knows as abortion.

    Abortion is murder, 1st degree murder, and all the bleeding heart reasons or your bullcrap here does not change that one iota.

  • http://www.marklaiminger.org Lammo

    but not every homicide is a murder. “Homicide” is the killing of one person by another person. “Murder” is a criminal legal concept, usually involving intentional killing of one person by another without justification. Killing of one person by another by accident, self-defense, or capital punishment are all homicides but are not murder; these either lack intent or are justified.

    This is why the abortion industry has to refuse to define the unborn child as a person. Once the unborn child is a person the intentional killing of that child by abortion cannot be justified and that is why abortion is intrinsically evil.

  • gravelyvoicejim

    YOU should have been his communications director…

  • gravelyvoicejim

    Roe v. Wade either has to be overturned or the Constitution amended. That’s why this senate seat is so important, the make-up of the SCOTUS is at stake here.

  • reclaimit

    I can see its complicated. I was hoping for some black and white logic to throw back at leftists, but I can see its going to take some parsing of the language. I usually go with God rather than lawyers because it shuts them right up. Hard to argue with the law of the Lord!

  • JSobieski

    Agree with me. You can call it BS or some type of expletive but that doesn’t change anything. Neither self defense nor mitigating factors are necessarily premised on the guilt or lack of innocence of the person being subjected to force.

  • momtothreebeagles

    WOW! Outside the cacophonous din of the media, and when made uniquely personal, these issues achieve even more clarity in our minds. Awesome piece.

  • kywrite

    Rape is rape.

    A baby is a baby.

    And when you’ve borne one under your heart for nine months, you know deep down it doesn’t matter how gestationally young it is; it’s still a baby.

    You were blessed with your grandmother, and with your mother. What a fortunate person you are!

  • Jack_Savage

    “You help me end abortion, and you can have the death penalty. Deal?”

  • PowerToThePeople

    and that is, what the hell does past punishment or charge matter?

    Laws are made tougher all the time, charges are changed to reflect current times or new information. So how it would have been charged 35 years ago is irrelevant.

    As I stated above, if you have a kid, God forbid it happens, kid is raped, person goes on trial tomorrow. Are you OK with him being charged with a light charge and only doing less than 5 years in prison while your son deals with a lifetime of horror all because that is how it has been done for 20 years? Or are you going to push for the harshest charge and do your best to keep the POS in prison for their natural life?

    How abortion was charged 35 years ago is irrelevant to this discussion. As are mitigating factors.

  • JSobieski

    It is for example quite stupid that drug crimes can result in more severe punishment than actual acts of violence against others.

    Your analogy is quite different from pregnancy for a variety of reasons. For example, pregnancy involves a physical connection with another human being. If someone pulled a “human centipede” scenario and physically connect you to another person, there is no way that a court would even consider a murder charge in that setting if you woke up traumatized and did something to change your situation. People do crack—and criminal laws do factor in such things.

    More importantly, your scenario invovles a substantival passage of time from a past act. There is a difference between being a victim at age 8 and using it as a mitigating factor at age 28, and a woman who is raped at age 22 and is struggling to deal with being physically attached to another human being at age 22. For example, if someone catches a spouse in an act of infidelity and immediately reacts—the law will often treat that scenario differently then if the person takes 5 minutes to procure a weapon and commits the precise same action.

    I am against abortion in all instances. I like to think that if I was a woman and a pregnancy threatened my life, that I would have the baby anyway.

    All that being said, there is no reason to treat abortion more harshly than other crimes that result in death.

    You make great emotional arguments, but questions of law and order are best left to realm of reason. Otherwise, public policy will do all sorts of things “for the children” and we will be overrun with all sorts of social programs. Emotion + good intentions can result in all sorts of bad laws (see American liberals). Conservatives are not immune to such pathways of good intentions.

    What is a light charge in your view? What is a harsh charge? Do you favor the maximum possible charge in all instances? After all, all criminal conduct is bad.

  • streiff

    in civilized societies. A mother has no more right to kill a baby in utero than the father does.

  • JSobieski

    There are several reasons for that. My primary point in bringing this up is that such people are not being logically inconsistent or incoherent. Criminal laws in the US going back to English criminal law in the 1600′s recognize differences of culpability in which a life is wrongfully taken.

    If you want to change all that, that is your perogative, but the burden of persuasion is on you. Given the current popularity of that position—you have a lot of work to do.

  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    I was always taught that acquired traits were not inherited.

    Maybe some things affecting behavior might be inherited like a low tolerance for alcohol, but I have seen too many siblings who were nothing alike to believe that your basic character is inherit.

    And if that was the truth then no one would be responsible for their own actions.

  • poorhoratio

    Thank you, Aaron Gardner for such a great post. I was truly inspired by your story, and by many of the comments as well (Next93, kowalski, Runner12, westcoastpatriette – here’s looking at you guys (and gals)!) Thanks for reminding me of why I’m on our side. I’m proud of you all.

  • streiff

    because producing the relevant journal articles is probably going to be a critical factor in determining your future on the site.

  • streiff

    you really shouldn’t spend your time talking with people who can’t understand the manifest difference between killing an innocent and society deciding protect itself by the legal execution of a convicted felon.

    To these people there is no difference between a mugging and taxation because in both cases someone else ends up with your money.

  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    Here is the argument to use: Babies are innocent humans whom we should protect and murderers are guilty monsters we should punish, and if you can’t see the difference you are intellectually and morally repugnant.

  • streiff

    we can sow seeds but ultimately they are going to have to convince themselves. I think you are correct in your analogy but I don’t think being a pro-abort is a position that indicates a terrible demand of logic to begin with.

  • reclaimit

    No lib would take it. Truth is, the death penalty is being used less frequently now. It’s way too expensive, and states and politicians are coming to the conclusion that the benefits of appearing “tough on crime” no longer outweigh the ridiculously expensive costs of executing these thugs. It’s not going away on moral grounds, but rather practical ones.

    IMO we need the same kind of campaign saavy that the abolitionists are using with the death penalty to chip away at abortion.

  • JSobieski

    Which is why you don’t really see pro-lifers becoming pro-aborts, but you do find a lot of pro-aborts becoming pro-lifers.

    Your seeds of logic is applicable to this topic, as well just about everything else in the public sphere.

  • JSobieski

    nt

  • acat

    where I say something like “{hero-figure}* is one in a million .. so if we abort a million babies, we’ve prevented the next {hero-figure} from being born. Who knows what we’ve lost?”.

    No biblical justification, no accusation of murder. It’s a much simpler major premise to swallow – {hero figure} is one in a million – but the minor premise, that a missing {hero figure} leaves quite a hole is straight out of Bedford.**

    Just a thought.

    Mew

    * Good examples include Ronald Reagan, Scottie Pippen, etc. etc.

    ** “It’s A Wonderful Life” reference.

  • Repair_Man_Jack

    -nt.

  • 2warabnvet

    the taxpayer should not be forced to pay for it.

  • reclaimit

    It’s also eliminated thousands of murderers, drug addicts, and future Democratic voters. For one Scottie Pippen? I’m a Bulls fan, but I’d give up Pippen in that trade.

  • streiff

    proof that this “bad seed” crap actually exists, otherwise your future here is in real doubt.

  • acat

    This cat’s money is on nurture.

    For every “negative trait” (A.D.D. being one example) that can be inherited, there’s coping strategies and life skills that can be taught by a nurturing parent.

    Mew

  • jyalai

    Cultural norms? They change like the wind.

    Since an atheist rejects any moral reference, apart from human experience, from which to compare his own sense of right and wrong, what he can rationalize is right. Killing an unwanted baby can be rationalized by reducing the significance of the baby’s life in reference to the suffering of the mother. Who are we to say that forcing the mother to suffer through the unwanted pregnancy and the sometimes greater discomfort of figuring out what to do with the child isn’t the greater evil? In a relative world it’s all the same.

  • streiff

    it gave us a chance to review your comment history. Trolling is not good behavior.

  • bullhead

    http://www.lifenews.com/2011/02/18/poll-majority-of-americans-say-abortion-morally-wrong/

  • bullhead

    http://www.rebeccakiessling.com/index.html

  • chuckie

    …and ain’t not one single idiot out there can say otherwise, so there…

    …..and i was blessed to have the best ob/gyn team in the world at the time – which was only months after roe….who offered me either an abortion, or nine months prenatal care for the same $75, which fee also covered the delivery, and all the legal expenses involved in the adoption….these doctors were angels and heroes to me, because there was no way i could have afforded nine months of doctoring to bring that child to birth otherwise….

    …..but i would have done without it and grown that kid on my own anyway, because a baby by any other name is a still a baby….

    …looks to me like those doctors also had an opnion about abortion, what do you think???

    ….i will never understand how people can apply the death penalty to the only perfectly innocent bystander involved in this crime…..

    …so now you have my opinion…… :)

  • Repair_Man_Jack

    You made something good out of something awful. You have my respect for that. Not many people have that ability.

  • chuckie

    ….i may have helped a weebit…..thanks…. :)

  • http://www.periodictablet.com superamerican

    Democrats are not for choice, except when it is to kill a fetus. Isn’t that hyprcritical? One government deciding to enable lust with no consequences. Can’t a woman say “no” or demand protection? What in the world is wrong with that? Then if she gets pregnant she – and she alone, with government support takes away all opportunity for that fetus to grow into a happy human, a Steve Jobs a killer or a regular person. But the fetus doesn’t get that opportunity, that choice if you will. So Democrats re against choice. Huh? Hypocritical.

    Men are the politicians and the majority of judges who allowed woman to kill or live with her fetus. It isto their benefit to allow and ecourage lust for themselves.

    It is complex.

    PERIODICTABLET.com

  • http://www.periodictablet.com superamerican

    I used to hate it when, in the throes of lust, she said, “no”. But I respected it, of course, as any rational man would. Perhaps I wouln’t give up. But it was her choice. I never impregnated a woman other than my wife, so never faced the issue of having no voice in abortion or not. I do feel I should get a voice however, since it’d be half mine. But if I wanted it and she didn’t why couldn’t I get the choice of raising it? Not just cutting off any future for the child.

    I guess responsibility is gone courtesy of the Liberals.

    PERIODICTABLET.com

  • califgal

    I going to list my thoughts. I don’t care to argue for the purpose of persuasion here. Won’t do any good, just as the counterarguments to my positions don’t do any good in persuading me. The reason: most mature people concerned enough to comment have given long, hard thought to their positions.

    1) Many who believe in the death penalty don’ believe in abortion, period. They argue that the person assigned the death penalty did something so heinous, he either deserves death as a punishment or he deserves death because the crime he committed indicates he is incapable of being rehabilitated to the point of ever releasing him into society so they concludeit’s useless to let him languish for the rest of his life in prison.

    From my point of view, if one is going to argue that a sperm and an egg united –(I can’t help shaking my head at their hair splitting over whether life begins at implantation or when egg meets sperm)–are instantly life as well as a “human being,” then they must also accept that a guilty life is still life. Period. Otherwise, all their protestations show them to be hypocrites. They say, “But the child is innocent!”
    (Not according to the religious beliefs of Christians, the child isn’t. It is born with Original Sin, but why should I go there with the doctrinal arguments about that when I can simply point to biology and the genetic roll of the dice as follows?

    2). Just one sperm contributed to fertilize a woman’s egg by the likes of a Jeffrey Dahmer or a Richard Allen Davis or any of the millions of other such human beings, is, unfortunately, likely to pass on the genetic information that creates a person that will hurt other people. Sure, it’s possible that the genetic roll of the dice might combine in such a way as to create offspring that are decent human beings, but if you have studied heredity, genetics and their correlation to criminality, I think most people would face a hard truth—that human beings are not blank slates upon which loving and kind people can write what they wish and “erase” or “tamp down” the proclivities that biochemistry insists plays out. Every identical twins’ study of such twins separated at birth have revealed the same thing. Decades of “nature” versus “nuture” study backs that up. NO, environment DOES NOT TRUMP GENETICS. This is a hard truth for just about everyone, liberal and conservatives, the religious and the irreligious, etc. It’s a psychological slap in the face. Hearing it, reading such studies, the reactions of people range from insult to rage. It’s never easy to accept we have limitations, that our love and kindness has limitations, that we are, helpless.

    The rapist contributes half of his genetics to the child. If Richard Allen Davis made 5 baby boys, I am tellling you that you are passing to the next generation more violence, more pain, more inhumanity to man just as if he had a gene for Huntington’s Disease that half of his kids will get.

    I was sexually assaulted in college by a stranger at gunpoint. Luckily, because I was menstruating at the time, the offender choose to force me into “only” performing fellatio. For over 40 minutes, I had a gun at the back of my head as I was forced to kneel between his legs, his hand pushing my head down into his crotch. they caught him four years later. When I testified in front of a grand jury, there were a dozen other women there. The police told me they suspected him of over a score of other reported sexual assaults…almost all were rapes.

    You bet had I been raped, I would have headed for the doctor for a morning- after pill had they been available in those days. You bet I would have aborted any fetus that had been conceived. I would then and I would now. I would never visit such genes on society, on myself, on a child. No way. I would have been doing everyone a favor.

    However, unlike you, it’s true I don’t think a sperm and an egg united are a child. No, I don’t. Just as the millions of sperm you have at this minute have the “potential” to make a child, just as the myriads of eggs a fertile female has have the “potential” to create a child” I don’t think a recently feritilized egg is any different than those eggs and those sperm. Think of it this way: all those sperm you have? They are 1/2 kids in your eyes, using your logic. Are you a killer because you haven’t made them whole kids? Get out there, then, and give them life by allowing them to impregnate a woman, by allowing them to fertilize an egg. Otherwise, I can argue you are denying them their natural “right” to life. All that genetic information which they are carrying, all that potential for life they have you are denying. (Ridiculous? Yep.)

    3) Then there’s this notion of putting the child of rape up for adoption after carrying it to term. Oh, great–some family which has no idea of the likely genetic time bomb they’ve adopted gets this child.

    I know. I know. I hear many of you cursing me, tsk-tsking me, saying things like “Think of all the wonderful people that have been born of the rapist because the woman chose to have the baby.”

    Fine. That’s great, as long as that child hasn’t turned out to visit violence on society and isn’t himself or herself (the “himself” is more likely, of course, because of androgen and because of the organization and biochemistry of the male brain) another rapist, another murderer, another victimizer of society. Odds are not good, however.

    We’re just not going to see eye to eye. I see keeping such genes from being perpetually passed along as a good thing. Others cling to more psychologically comforting notions.

  • califgal

    As I’ve typed the previous post, I have been listing to Huckabee’s interview of Akins.

    I listened to his interview of him yesterday as well. (Rush is gone this week or I would be listening to him rather than MH.)

    Huckabee, realizing that, at least for now, Akins is staying in the race and that he himself has something to lose in politcal capital, is clearly placing the blame for this today on the “establishment.” He keeps speaking of the “establishment”trying to force out Akins as opposed to the “grass roots” wanting him to stay.

    Feeble, Mike, feeble. Yesterday you offered the guy a chance to redeem himself (probably for your own sake), but at least you didn’t pull an Obama, trying to shape one group against another.

    Today, you are talking about “vicious” people who want him out. He just said he is “surprised by the vitriolic tone of Republicans” but “let’s get your feelings on the matter.”

    Huck is unctuous. Always has been, always will be.

    Akin’s anti- abortion are not at all what upset me. What upset me is how damn stupid he is and it’s not about a “word” he used.

    A few people have called in to Huck, saying that since they woke up this morning, they have changed their minds after listening to Huck. Oh, good. They now say they hate the “establishment, the national GOP.” Oh, good, Huck.

    More than anything, ego is working here in both Akin and Huck.

  • Aaron Gardner

    So, you should probably just leave now.

  • streiff

    Science #FAIL
    Social Skills #FAIL
    Account Status #FAIL

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    Do you people have parades before your Moloch sacrifices?

  • CincoSolas_del_Bronx

    not “care to argue for the purpose of persuasion here”, for to do so would require me to view you as someone who writes only for selfish–perhaps even “psychologically comforting”–reasons, and that does not align with either the little I recall of your history here or the care with which you expressed your rationale for your own thoughts in this comment.

    That said, in civil society, the expression of arguments intended to persuade carries with it an obligation to attempt to clarify or defend those arguments with a civil hearer. If you can accept me as such, I have a very serious question about your conclusion and would like to know what you think:

    Do you extend your “bad seed” concern rationale for abortion in the event of pregancy resulting from rape to pregnancy resulting from marital union with a man who is, say, sexually immoral, or abusive, or a drunkard, or a thief, or a gambler, or a liar, or … a Democrat? In other words, wouldn’t “keeping such genes from being perpetually passed along” also be a good thing?

  • earlgrey

    I don’t buy anything.

    I wrote the RNC (not like it matters) to tell them to pull the plug on Huck’s speech or never contact me again for a donation. I know it won’t happen, but now I have an excuse.

  • Craigpennsylvania

    No one has ever said an egg is “1/2 a person”. No one has said a sperm is “1/2 a person”.

    Once conception has occured, no other activity is required in order for the child to eventually be born. My wife and I have three children. After conception, my wife went to work (for the first child – she became a “stay at home mom” after that).

    My wife, with each child, continued to do her daily chores, exercising, etc …. until each of our children was born.

    This unborn child is innocent. Your bringing “original sin” into the discussing is darkly amusing. The Bible teaches us to protect the innocent, and you are using the Bible as “proof” that children are not innocent. Original sin means that we have to accept that we, as humans, DO sin, and require forgiveness. Original sin is not permission to kill unborn children.

    Your assertion that “nature” projects itself from one generation to the next is truly frightening. Some of the best people I know had horrible fathers. My own father had an abusive, alcoholic father. My dad is one of the kindest people on the planet.

    Califgal – I listened to the statement by Akin in its entirety. I hope he pulls out of the race. I think he needs to place country and party above his own personal political ambitions. I think he is a good man who mangled what he was trying to say: “The baby is innocent”. I think he may have caused himself too much damage from which to recover in 11 short weeks.

    That being said, should Akin stay in the race, and the Republican Party pull support from him, I will be supporting him financially.

    Personally, I will side with someone who protects life, even when he has said something stupid, over someone who sides with infanticide.

  • cbartlett

    nt

  • Freiheit

    … your pain and I support you. Rape is one of the most egregious acts of inhumanity that this world knows; what was done to you – and has been done to many, many women – borders on the unforgivable.

    I cannot (will never) be able bring myself to believe that the moral position is to empower the government to force a woman to carry to term the result of a rape.

  • Melody Warbington (rwm52)

    in spite of the violation and violence. Babies cannot survive the violation and violence of abortion. Which is worse?

  • cbartlett

    In Texas (maybe other states?) I believe killing a pregrant woman is considered capital murder because the law considers it as two lives taken. Hmmm – interesting that it’s a life under those circumstances but not when taken by abortion? Classic argument I’ve never seen a liberal be able to answer.

  • absdoggy

    This actually is a very important point – it is what will give huge ammo to the Supreme Court when it revisits abortion.

    Roe vs. Wade is now about 40 years old. In the intervening years, several states have instituted criminal penalties in the law that recognizes the unborn child, and have instituted recognition of the unborn child for civil/tort reasons.

    Couple that with our medical understanding of life in-utero and there are solid grounds to declare that the legal underpinnings of Roe vs Wade are now trumped.

  • brojohn2

    20% of the country? I think I would like to know where you get your facts. Which liberal think tank gave that figure? Let us take a look at the truth of this position. Rape – horrible crime, should be punishable by death, but for same stupid reason is not. Abortion of the baby produced by this horrible crime. – Why? Is the baby guilty of anything? Is the child the rapist? NO the child is innocent and should not be put to death just because his father committed an horrific act against her mother. Someone else said that the mother should receive all the help that we can give her so she can come through this terrible situation whole as possible. killing that baby is just another psychological mess that she will have to deal with later in life. The fact that a child is formed is not a thing to be lightly taken away. The life of that baby is just as precious as the life of the mother. Stop the murder of innocent children because of the actions of irresponsible adults. Whether rape, incest or just plain lust, the child did not cause this to happen, let the child live.

  • brojohn2

    and yet it also brings out the best in some folks. Roe V Wade was a travesty of justice, and even Ruth Bader Ginsburg agrees with that. Let us look at the truth of this matter: Abortion in or out of the womb, is killing of a human child. In Roman times (BC/AD) women would have their babies and if they didn’t want them they would place them out side of the town or city where wild animals would come and kill and eat. Those who became followers of Christ, knowing that God was a life giver, would go out and rescue those children and raise the child in their own homes.
    Today, even Christians are separated by abortion, I am a retired UM pastor, I am Pro Life as is my wife, but many of my colleagues are of the opinion that abortion is necessary in cases where there was incest (still rape), rape, or just where the woman feels that it was a mistake to give in to lust. How these clergy persons can think it is alright to kill a child who did nothing wrong, is guilty of no crime, and did not choose to be in that place and time, is totally beyond me.
    I read some of the statements written here and I cannot believe that people actually believe that it is perfectly acceptable to kill an innocent child, but not to kill a murderer or rapist, is so completely beyond logic that I shudder to think that they may actually be in positions where they can influence others.
    Biology has shown that life begins when the egg (produced by the woman) is fertilized by the sperm (produced by the male). That is when a HUMAN BEING is formed, that is when life begins. That life is completely innocent, it has done nothing wrong and yet we want to condemn it to death because of what the two adults did, or what one male adult forced upon a female. The only one to be punished is the perpertrator of the crime, if there was once, because we even kill the product of a consensual act of sexual intercourse.
    THIS IS MADNESS!!!! We are punishing an innocent human person for something that person had no control over. My God this is horrible that we can even think that this abortion thing is anything other than EVIL. Stop the madness, stop the killing!!!!!

  • MF

    Jewish faith allows, or even requires, abortion in order to save the life of the mother. Big difference between the health and the life. One that liberals (not claiming you’re one) regularly try to blur.

    Bottom line – if the mother is going to die if the doctor doesn’t terminate the life of the child, the mother is to be saved first. That isn’t abortion, it’s merely the case of having to choose between one of two lives to be saved, for which saving both is impossible.

    Just like if a doctor comes to an auto accident and two people are gravely injured, both are stuck in their respective cars, and both are bleeding out. Only one can have the bleeding stopped, so only one can be saved. It isn’t murder (abortion) to make that choice.

  • MF

    Jewish faith allows, or even requires, abortion in order to save the life of the mother. Big difference between the health and the life. One that liberals (not claiming you’re one) regularly try to blur.

    Bottom line – if the mother is going to die if the doctor doesn’t terminate the life of the child, the mother is to be saved first. That isn’t abortion, it’s merely the case of having to choose between one of two lives to be saved, for which saving both is impossible.

    Just like if a doctor comes to an auto accident and two people are gravely injured, both are stuck in their respective cars, and both are bleeding out. Only one can have the bleeding stopped, so only one can be saved. It isn’t murder (abortion) to make that choice.

  • 10ab

    I would want my daughters to have a choice if they were raped by a madman and I still consider myself pro life. The Akin debacle has now inflamed the hardline social conservatives and the election is now about abortion and electing an idiot as long as he is a conservative idiot. Thank you for your courage in posting your horrific ordeal.

  • Joshua Persons

    Why do you consider yourself pro-life?

  • arthurjake

    The problem was though he did not just stand to the moral argument. He tried to make a scientific argument based on faulty science. By using that faulty science he allowed liberals to make the argument that social conservatives are heartless people who don’t care about rape victims in specific and pregnant rape victims in general.

    He should have stuck to the moral argument in favor of preserving life. No, matter how a human life is conceived it is still life and deserves the same protections. With that argument you can still be empathetic to the woman who was a victim but still concerned about the other life innocent in all of it.

  • http://colorado.mediatrackers.org/ Aaron Gardner

    That’s the point I was making in the post.

  • alanwillingham

    When any “Elite” group is allowed to define any segment of humanity as “not human” there are inevitably dire consequences which coincide with the massive moral disintegration such blood-lust engenders. Democrats defined Blacks as less than human in order to subjugate them, control them, own them, sell them and eliminate them st will. They caused over a half million American citizens to die before they finally prevented from such barbarism.

    Then they created the KKK to terrorize Republicans who had freed Blacks from slavery and to terrorize, maim, brutalize and kill Free Blacks. Of course, as pressure mounted to cease those atrocities, they then instituted Poll Taxes, Jim Crow laws. separate but equal segregation, blocking schoolhouse doors and flying Confederate Battle Flags over state capitols.

    Just as the Nazis denied Jews are human in order to control, enslave, brutalize and kill them, so too do all perverted Elitist Political Powers seek to oppress any and all whom they determine to be inferior.

    Apparently for Democrats, there is an unrequited lust for Elite Power over others to dictate, to grantor deny the very fundamentals of Life and Equality outlined in our Declaration of Independence and US Constitution.

    Now we live in a time when Democrats have shifted the force of their Cult of Death and their macabre reign of power to the most innocent and defenseless in our society. They insist on human sacrifice to appease their gods of violence and attempt to rationalize that a mother should kill her innocent baby if the father has committed the criminal act of rape.

    How are so many millions so brainwashed as to believe that serving as slaves on a Plantation is to be cherished rather than Freedom? How are millions of females convinced that they are to cherish becoming sexual trampolines for a Political Party whose Ideology exploits their bodies and offers Birth Control and Abortions to obscure known realities and project some Free Love Liberal Utopia without consequences?

    Killing innocent baby humans while claiming they aren’t actually baby humans is absurd in the extreme. Killing any group of innocent people using the lie “…but these people aren’t really people so its okay” is an outage of horrendous magnitude that must not be allowed to continue to slaughter any segment of humanity in order to appease the carnal degradations of any other.

  • arthurjake

    Sounded to me like you were defending his stupidity because socons feel forced to give a scientific argument. A major point in making a scientific argument is researching the validity of the argument first. A better example of a argument based in science against abortion is physical and psychological risks that women take undergoing the procedure. The science backs it and it shows you are sympathetic to the woman undergoing the procedure.

    Other than that though I liked the posting. You made the moral argument quite well. I unfortunately cant get past a few lines before my focus is gone. Notice I haven’t posted anything here yet besides comments.

  • http://colorado.mediatrackers.org/ Aaron Gardner

    Here is the critical text you must have missed:

    “As a movement, we do ourselves a disservice when we reach for quasi-scientific arguments in favor of our moral positions. The honest truth is that we fail because we are scared to stand on the principle itself and open ourselves to attacks and gaffes as Akin did.”

    And a bit further down…

    “And they get away with this largely because we are told not to stand up for our own moral principles.”

    When people lack the courage to, or are told not to, stand for their moral convictions by referencing morality, we end up with people trying to grasp at scientific explanations they don’t understand or using bogus science.

    Clearly I am saying make the argument for moral positions by pointing out the observable benefits of living morally.

  • mastadon

    I would like it noted that my facebook profile now says that I like “rape, abortion, and…”

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