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Tom Tancredo: Perry a “fraud”, Paul’s fans “nuts”, Newt’s plan full of “holes”

By: Caleb Howe (Diary)  |  January 20th, 2012 at 12:00 PM  | 

RESIZE: AAA

TIRNation has been posting a lot of video during the Southern Republican Leadership Conference, all worth watching. Below, watch Ben Howe interview Tom Tancredo. At around the six minute mark, Congressman Tancredo remarks on the (at the time) current GOP candidates.

Congressman Tancredo says that Rick Perry is a “fraud on almost every issue” he can think of. On Newt’s immigration plan: it “has more holes in it than my old underwear and I think it smells worse.” He says that Santorum is the closest to his own immigration views. While I obviously think he’s wrong on virtually every point he makes, the real winner here is the viewer. Land sharks disavowing Ron Paul, smelly underwear … it really has it all. Oh, and he advocates for a national popular vote, but that part wasn’t as funny.

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COMMENTS

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  • Lucas Black

    Tom Tancredo is such an ass. I wish he’d go away.

  • pttx333

    He’s calling Perry a fraud? Has he looked in the mirror lately?

    PFFFFFFFFFT!

    • greyeagle

      I agree with your comments.

  • For Newt Or Mitt

    Or was it only about something he stated in the video clip?

    • Caleb Howe

      Is what how who feels?

    • gekster

      Ya just can’t quit me, can ya.

      I hve that effect on some people. ;)

      • gekster

        got exicted for nothin.

  • http://theusreport.com KBDay

    Tancredo is way off base. Perry was one of the most genuine candidates we had.

    On Santorum’s immigration ‘views,’ Tancredo should check the former senator’s actual votes.

    Thanks for pointing this out, tho.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    Do Hickenlooper and Bennet send flowers every week, or just on their anniversary?

  • aesthete

    legal or illegal, I don’t think Tancredo has much standing to call anyone’s immigration plan nutty, unrealistic, or unconservative.

    • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

      Anyone who allies with radical Malthusian left groups has no business talking about conservative credentials, indeed.

  • cheetah2

    NOT!

  • Finrod

    Support for a National Popular Vote confirms it– he wants to empower every hard-left city in the United States to crank up their voter fraud machines in favor of the Democrat.

    • Caleb Howe

      Fred! is here supporting the same group.

    • tailfins1959

      I thought the Electoral College was a firewall against voter fraud and a mechanism to prevent large urban centers to have undue influence. Wouldn’t allowing congressional districts to decide electoral votes preserve the intent of the Electoral College while putting the choice closer to the people?

      • Finrod

        I don’t have any problems with states going to the Maine-Nebraska model, since it preserves the voter fraud firewalls that the Electoral College model has erected.

  • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

    He’s an angry old racist that belongs with Ron Paul and Pat Buchanan.

    • Repair_Man_Jack

      Tancredo is John Derbyshire without the intellect or the good finishing school.

      • aesthete

        that he has a place in National Review. You’d think that with their editorial history of being soft on integration and civil rights, they’d take more precautions not to hire a Derbyshire.

    • acat

      They can take Tancredo, or Ron Paul, or Pat Buchanans’ words, turn around, and tar us all.

      Mew

  • dlg00

    I have been on all of the conservative blogs for the last couple of weeks reading post, but most telling is Yahoo, Google & LSM. They are going after Romney….ABC has gone the office of Bain in Caymans, and you should have read the post by ppl on Yahoo (Thousands) are mad that he is not paying his fair share. Whether it was legal or not, the union have done their part to help OB selling the 1% and it has ALOT of ppl hacked off. They ran an article about Newt and his ex..funny how ppl see this as….been there.. saw this, and most of us have been through nasty divorces. Lastest news coming in about Santorum and the fact that his wife lived with an OB-GYN abortionist for 5 yrs during their 7 yr marital hiatus. Since Santorum just got bumped off the IL primary & has miissed a boatload of primary deadlines…where does he have to go from FL? Google search engine. lol

    We cannot unestimate the total free for all that is going on in the LSM and Romney is getting huge hits daily, and weather right or wrong the ppl are saying his is not one of us…actually the post were quite spot on and amusing to read….unless you are a Mitt fan, and I am not…with that said I have to say that if we do not stop him in SC….they have had 3 1/2 yrs to get ready for him and it is going to make these debates look like childs play.

  • http://www.WILLisms.com WILLisms

    Tom Tancredo is easily the biggest fraud in American politics today.

  • circlegranch

    He is a bomb thrower that constantly seeks media attention. His comments are outrageous. Since nobody in his home state will give him the time of day anymore, looks like he’s trying to find other places to vent his nonsense.

  • nativetexan41

    why would anyone listen to him.
    I am missing Gov.Perry, last nights debate was boring.

    • rtsidedragon

      native I’m missing the Governor as well. Smile – you still have him running your state. I’m in Oregon and, well, things aren’t so sunny up in Salem.
      Tom Tancredo – he MUST be an accidental dumba$$ – no one could be the way he is ON PURPOSE.

      PERRY POSSE

    • Rapunzel46

      We lost the best man to take on Obama yesterday and it is thanks to jerks like Tancredo that he was unfairly maligned by so-called conservatives around the web…. Tancredo can take a hike!

  • greeneyeshade

    The popular vote sounds like a good idea, if you are either a.) a brain-dead leftist who substitutes feeling for reason or b.) a non bread-dead leftist electioneer.

    By fixing the number of votes in advance, say through the electoral college-there is no way the left (by any of their normal means such as: allowing suffrage of the dead, voting early and often, trucking people to polls, inventing votes, accepting MIckey Mouse as valid or by suppressing the vote as they were doing in Philadelphia in 2008) can affect a national election by capturing the electoral apparatus of some large city or state and affecting THE ENTIRE NATIONAL ELECTION.

    The wisdom of the electoral college becomes obvious when you think about a razor thin election and something like a Chicago “machine”.

    There is no provision of the Constitution shows more wisdom than the electoral college. Obviously, its creators understood the potential for and the necessity to, isolate, contain and limit the effects of voter fraud.

  • chuckludd

    The president would end up being elected by NYC, Chicago and Los Angeles.

    • funwithknives

      sking, falls downhill and turns into a very large accumulating snowball.
      Thusly, into a valley of some depth.
      To say he’s for NPV is to ally himself with Anarchists and lesser forms of humanity.
      Isn’t there a drug or vaccination for this kind of virus?

  • http://parsoned.blogspot.com parsoned

    Tancredo is irrelevant. Anyone who despises immigrants, legal & illegal, as much as he does deserves to be ignored.

  • rebcyy

    Who are you people? The illegal alien crisis has been created by 40 years of a government that will not enforce its own laws, often with the help of Republicans and supposed “conservatives.” And yet again there are Republicans talking about “compromise.” (i.e. give amnesties/special privilege) because of a chaos that should never have happened. Some of these Republicans like Marko Rubio are supposed to be Tea Party heroes.

    I have been a conservative activist since 1964. We had no intenet. We had no Fox news. We had no talk radio. The left had a total monopoly of information from “newspapers”(sic.) to magazines, to TV, to Hollywood movies, to colleges. We had nothing but ourselves. Where were you self-appointed political experts and pundits when we were struggling against impossible odds?

    How dare you Johnny-come-latelys bad mouth Tom Tancredo who has been in the fight for many years? And he has never gone the “compromise”/ fait accompli rute. He has been totally consitent.

    Shame on all of you!

    • Dave_A

      His immigration positions do not move us any closer to a solution, any more than the idiots pushing Amnesty do.

      And he is a very, very ineffective advocate for them.

      Also, on the list of problems facing our nation right now, Immigration isn’t in the top 10.

      • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

        With all the crypto-fascism that entails.

    • http://libertynews.com/ mbecker908

      You’re a raving loon.

      • http://libertynews.com/ mbecker908

        it was a real loser.

    • Bill S

      Take off the tinfoil, bub.

  • rebcyy

    So, all of you geniuses, let’s have a debate. One guy thinks that immigration is not among the “top 10 issues.” Really? Why? because he says so? So then, is the USA to be an amorphous area with no common culture, not even a common language? And, somehow that is supposed to be a stable functional sciety? The fact we are being overwhelmed by a mass migration of foreigners, citizens of a foreign power (people who could not care a rat’s ass about the USA as a country) is less important than what — Louisiana giving a marriage licenese to George and Spike, or teenage children getting high on pot, or all the porn you can watch. Yah! Now were talking about the very foundations upon which a civilization is built!

    Read my lips: No control over illegal immigration negates our borders and gegates the USA as a nation. Contrary to the liberal myth of 12 million there are probably 20 to 30 million illegal aliens who evade arrest and will not go home. Uncontrolled immigration wil inevitably overwhelm our government, its law enforcement institutions and our whole society. No society can survive overwhelming, uncontrolled migration.

    Arizone is already in chaos. Do you geniuses think you can handle such a heavy abstraction? But, what the hell, it is not even among the top 10 issies. Free rubbers (condoms for you kids) are, obviously, more important.

    Any society that even has to debate the importance of controlling its borders is already half dead.

    Sorry, whomever you are, but posting some sophmoric little picture is not a valid rebuttal to my argument. And “HAHAHAHA ” what is that? your vocabulary or just the only word you know how to spell?

    I have been in the fight since 1964. Don’t presume to lecture me you Johnny-come-latelys.

    • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

      He’s also not very bright, and far out of step with America and conservatives, with his crackpot idea of attacking ALL immigration, not just ILLEGAL immigration.

      You can tell he’s a fake conservative by his alliance with the lefty Numbers USA.

      Read my Lips: anyone who’s working with that Nazi Symp Pat Buchanan and his sister probably needs to be looked at again for defects.

      His fifth columnist sabotage run for Governor, handing that slot to the Democrat, is the culmination of his anti-conservative career.

    • Dave_A

      So, all of you geniuses, let?s have a debate. One guy thinks that immigration is not among the ?top 10 issues.? Really? Why? because he says so?
      =======================

      No, because it’s a fact. If you look at what people voted on, Immigration is almost never the defining issue.

      If it were, your ‘hero’ would not have gotten SKUNKED in the 2008 Primary – and that was just the GOP insiders voting, not the whole nation.

      =======================
      So then, is the USA to be an amorphous area with no common culture, not even a common language?


      Yep. Nothing in common but a desire for individual freedom & the ability to engage in free enterprise… And of course enough respect for law & order to fill out the paperwork & wait in line… Come one, come all…

      Besides, there’s a damn-high chance your family got off a boat at some time… I know mine did (post-WWI)…

      And, somehow that is supposed to be a stable functional sciety?


      Worked for the first 235 years of our existence… Still works now..

      The fact we are being overwhelmed by a mass migration of foreigners, citizens of a foreign power (people who could not care a rat?s ass about the USA as a country)

      Says who? You?

      Most LEGAL Immigrants DO give a rat’s ass about this country – many have fought & died for it over the past 10 years of war…

      Given the chance, the LEGAL immigrants tend to assimilate and apply for citizenship…

      is less important than what ? Louisiana giving a marriage licenese to George and Spike, or teenage children getting high on pot, or all the porn you can watch. Yah! Now were talking about the very foundations upon which a civilization is built!

      ROFL… Our civilization is built on capitalism and freedom – not on being from any one race, culture, or national origin.

      BTW, the most ‘un-American’ immigrants are white-Europeans, many of whom come here with ‘California Syndrome’ and want to make the US into their old home… But we should still let them come…

      Read my lips: No control over illegal immigration negates our borders and gegates the USA as a nation. Contrary to the liberal myth of 12 million there are probably 20 to 30 million illegal aliens who evade arrest and will not go home. Uncontrolled immigration wil inevitably overwhelm our government, its law enforcement institutions and our whole society. No society can survive overwhelming, uncontrolled migration.


      The problem isn’t the migration part, it’s the illegal part.

      And the solution is NONE OF THE THINGS your ‘hero’ has proposed.

      You fix illegal immigration with smart-card IDs, audits of employers, and e-verification of various cornerstone activities (banking, credit, employment, buying titled property)

      Arizone is already in chaos. Do you geniuses think you can handle such a heavy abstraction? But, what the hell, it is not even among the top 10 issies. Free rubbers (condoms for you kids) are, obviously, more important.


      Top-10 issues include the housing market, employment, cost of education, cost of health care, taxes, the war in Afghanistan, the euro-crisis, the financial sector, the deficit, entitlement reform…

      Not immigration.

      Any society that even has to debate the importance of controlling its borders is already half dead.

      We’ve never even tried to control ours for 235 years.

      And the solution to our immigration problem is NOT ON THE BORDER

      Sorry, whomever you are, but posting some sophmoric little picture is not a valid rebuttal to my argument. And ?HAHAHAHA ? what is that? your vocabulary or just the only word you know how to spell?

      I didn’t post any pictures, but you’re responding to my top-10 comment with rambled, historically-ignorant rubbish.

      I have been in the fight since 1964. Don?t presume to lecture me you Johnny-come-latelys.


      Fight? What fight? The ‘Save White America, Sieg-Heil fight?’…

      Sorry, you’re on the OTHER SIDE.

  • rebcyy

    This is not directed at any one person, instead, I am replying to specific statements that have been made.

    Why not let the victim speak for himself? Go to: townhall.com, then search, “Tom Tancredo,” then, “Smears at CPAC — Tom Tancredo.”

    I must defend my honor. I wondered how long it would be before someone pulled the Nazi, sieg heil (expletive, vulgar words deleted to preserve civility) junk. I had several uncles who served in the military in WWII. One died fighting the Nazis and one was crippled for life. Oh, I’m sorry, being proud of my heritage, according to some liberals/lefties, proves that I must be a xenophobic, racist.

    I never said anything about “save White America.” Don’t come around with that Nazi stuff and don’t put words in my mouth! Come off it!

    Somebody got that “Seig-Heil” spelling correctly; frankly, I did not know how to spell it before.

    One commontator said, “We’ve never even tried to control ours (borders) for 235years.” Really? And I am accused of being “historically ignorant.” I can’t give a complete history here, but here are just a tiny few things: the Naturalization Act of 1790 which was an attempt to control immigration policy (generally, no quotas — yet), the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882, the immigration acts of 1921 and 1924, the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952 and etc. By my math even 1952 is less than 235 years. But I do have an unfair advantage; I was educated before Social Studies preempted real subjets like — History.

    I said, I have been “in the fight” because I foolishly assumed that Red State readers would know I was referring to the fight against liberal/left big governmlent without limits on its power.

    I now realize that, for kids, the date of 1964 is beyohnd their limited knowledge. 1964 is the year Barry Goldwater ran for president
    and was relentlessly smeared as a crypto Nazi by the liberal lame stream news media — even though his grandfather was a Jew. But, what the hell, that should not get in the way of a cracking good slander.

    Regarding the statement that I write “Historically ignorant rubbish,” isn’t it amazing that young people speak with such certainty about subjects of which they, obviousely, have limited knowledge? Well, in all fairness, I am sure I would not do well in subjects like Social Studies

    Sorry kids, I have to go now.
    Bye to all of you, my adoring fans.

    • acat

      You’re wrong on Tancredo. One doesn’t have to march around in stormfront gear to be a racist…

      Worse, Tancredo’s nothing but an opportunistic leech. Where has he said word one about how much his proposals will *cost* ?

      Finding illegals who don’t wish to be found will need investigators, who will need salaries.

      Detaining and transporting illegals who he says must be deported will take guards and their salaries, as well as facilities and their maintenance staff and their fat government contracts and union wages, as well as transportation and more guards and union mechanics and salaries and wages….

      I’d suggest spending more time on shuffleboard or bocce ball and less on trying to defend the indefensible.

      Mew

      • rebcyy

        Your nasty little comment transcends a difference of opinion. Rather it is a verbal middle finger: i.e. “Screw you, you stupid old man; you aint cool like us.” When you were sucking on a pacifier, we (real conservatives) were there on the rampartrs. We were there so you could be here now sneering at us.

        I was there when Barry Goldwater was slandered as a racist.

        I was there when William F Buckley Jr. launched National Review, a small magazine what was just about all we had.

        I was there wen the hippies were running the streets of Chicago literally cheering for the enemy who was killing their brothers in Viet Nam — “Ho, Ho, Ho Chi Minh, the NLF is gonna win.” I know you have no idea what that chant means, but I do, and I am not going to explain it to you, but it is not good. Find out for yourselves you self-appointed expert on all things.

        I worked for, gave up a good job for, and was there when Ronald Reagan was elected president.

        For 48 years I saw the thingsI believed in and held sacred, ridiculed, vilified, distorted — on television news, in the movies, in magazines, in newspapers, on TV sitcoms, on the college campuses. 48 years of scorn, humiliation, and ridicule.

        And now, on a web site that is supposed to be “conservative” I see the same slanders against an old warrior, Tom Tancredo, and when I protest from provoked pain I am sneered at as a stupid old man.

        You sneering teenagers (mentally, if not psysiologically) where were you or your parents when we were fighting our lonely battles?

        You have not earned the right to sit in judgement on us.

        And tell that to the racist hunting Neal.

  • rebcyy

    Can’t your ilk ever talk without the ugly insults?

    So kids, once again — sigh. Regarding the statement “When has he (Tancredo) said one word about how much his proposals will cost?” I won’t tie up this blog with minuta, let’s get to substance.

    The Heritage Foundation has published a report in 2007 in which it estimated the cost of amnesty at around $2.7 trillion ( yes trillion with a “t”). Lookit up on the internet. Considering that Obama has declared he will obstruct efforts to deport illegal aliens, the number ofillegal foreigners would be much higher today and likewise the cost of amnesty.

    Yes, lets talk about costs. Look up specifics on the internet, but there is the ;cost of educating their children (most of whom are illeterate in their own langage) estimated at $100,000 K-12, free medical treatment, social services, money they send to Mexico, jobs they take away from legal US citizens, on and on and on. And criminal activities such as using a legal citizens Socail Security number, forged drivers liceneses, on and on and on. Arib terrorists crossing the border pretending to be Mexicans. We know this is true because the Border Partol has caught some of them. Border partol agents killed, American citizens killed.

    This is nottrigonometry people. The citizens of a foreign power, criminally trespass our borders because of the constant stream of incentives for them to come here — ILLEGALLY: one mini amnestry after another since the grand amnesty f 1986, free education, health care, social sevices on and on and on. AND NO SIGNIFICANT CONSE2QUENCES WHEN CAUGHT. No evading arrest charges ( like they would lay on you if you ran from a cop after being bulled over for running a stop sign).

    IT’S SIMPLE, REMOVE THE INCENTIVES AND THEY WILL GO HOME ON THEIR OWN. Duh!

    1

    • gekster

      ntnt

  • rebcyy

    I was disconnected before I was done or had the chance to correct some obvious type errors.

    To continue: no mass roundups of screaming little children, no taxpayer funded, free plane rides on comfortable passenger jets. No costs; no humanitarian issues

    Have you seen the costs of air fares lately?

    Well kids,I have to go again. It’s been fun. God bless all of you, my adoring fans.

    • acat

      Further, even “Operation Wetback” (go look it up) didn’t use plane rides…

      Unfortunately, that’s not Tancredo’s stock in trade .. he’s a “round ‘em up and ship ‘em out” type.

      Further, there’s a clear anti-brown-people bias, even though we ought to be also looking for illegal Irish in the northeast and illegal Chinese on the west coast … not to mention Obama’s relatives.

      Mew

  • rebcyy

    Havent you been reading the insulting slanders being posted on this site aganist Tancredo and on me because I dare to defend him?

    • acat

      Tancredo is indefensible. You are sweeping back the sea on his orders.

      Mew

    • gekster

      Post the facts and it is a smear.

      The only thing I can think of is your boy RP is quiting,
      so you need another false idol to worship.

      Oh, and the call for a national popular vote alone makes him a dunce.
      You don’t see any conservatives calling for that, only lefties.

  • rebcyy

    Here is a little quiz: Who said this? “Nineteenth century democracy needs no more complete vindication for its existence than the fact that it has kept for the white race the best portions of the new world’s surface.” Was it Tom Tancredo? Err — no, it was Theodore Roosevelt!

    Tancredo has never said or written anything remotely like that.

    The following is a short list of people accused of being racist: Martin Luther, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, Woodrow Wilson, Winston Churchill (for you kids, that is the guy who was the English war time leader in their fight against the Nazis), William F. Budklley Jr., Barry Goldwater, John Wayne — get ready, here it comes — JEASUS CHRIST!

    That is just a few. I assure you the people making those accusations back them up with quotations or evidence of one sort or another.

    You people really need to “chill out” (as the kids say) on this race thing.

    It is getting harder and harder to find heroes, except, of course, from among yourselves. I applaud your nobility. Really, you are obviousely so much better that those I have listed above.

    Bye for now, my adoring fans

    • acat

      That’s not a compliment.

      You’re churning out non-sequitors the way a Krispy Kreme churns out deliciousness,

      The simple fact is, guilt by association and innocence by association are both logical fallacies, and you have yet to either find the REPLY TO THIS button, or make an actual defense.

      Seriously. If I were offered a choice, I’d take the public defender with a drinking problem instead of you.

      Mew

      • tnfriendofcoal101368

        Can you think of anything sadder than being a candibot for Tom Tancredo?

        • acat

          (but left unchallenged, these maroons (to borrow from gekster) trash the signal-to-noise ratio pretty quickly.

          Mew

    • http://libertynews.com/ mbecker908

      And, as for your last line, don’t make it “for now”.

    • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

      TR was a progressive, not a conservative.

      • tnfriendofcoal101368

        He really defies any other label….

  • rebcyy

    regarding the 908(diary) “JEASUS? please.”

    Yes that is my point exactly. I do not invent things. Everythng I post I check for accuracy. Go look for your self, use Bing.com and search”Jeasus Christ racist.”

    Yes, the truth is often stranger than fiction.

    • gekster

      And that is an insult to all maroons.
      Calling Jesus a racist shows total lack of any semblence of rational thought.
      But you support Tancredo, so I shouldn’t be suprised by that.

  • rebcyy

    Dear gekster (Diary) and company.

    I feel I need to quickly reply to your nasty writing before someone reads only your post and takes it seriously. I WAS NOT, REPEAT, I WAS NOT CALLING JESUS CHRIST A RACIST; OTHER PEOPLE HAVE ACCUSED HIM OF BEING A RACISTS. YES, I TOO THINK THE CHARGE IS REDICULOUS, WHICH WAS MY WHOLE POINT WHEN I PUT HIM ON THE LIST.

    I assumed that when I posted the list of famous people who have been called racist, you would have connected the dots and understood my message.

    I am not being sarcastic here, but I will explain it in the most simple language I know how to write: I was trying to illustrate three points — first, we see that the charge of racism has been so recklessly used that even famous people, heroes whom we admire, even up to Jesus Christ have been attacked — second, that those who use the most outrageous accusations used various quotes or facts to validate their charges — three, therefore, we should not be instantly persuaded with ugly accusations that are based on only a few facts or “spin” interpretations.

    You took my post and turned it on its head which would not have happened had you people slowed down and considered that list within the context of what I have been saying all along: it is unfair to call Tancredo a racist (refer to my post of July 3, title and second paragraph).

    Perhaps I should have put more emphasis on that presious point in anticipation of an erroneous interpretation of my famous peoples list, especially when writing to a hostile audience.

    But stll, you people really need to chill out on this race thing ; it should not be intermingled with the perfectly legitmated debate over the illegal foreigners CRISIS.

    Had the government ENERGETICALLY enforced its own laws there would not be more than 20 million illegal foreigners evading arrest and refusing to go home (see immigrationcounters.com).

    It has been fun. I will pray to Jesus for all of you.

    • acat

      Willing to pony up for the border guards?

      What about for the additional ICE agents? More FBI and local police?

      You talk about how this is “no cost” .. but that only covers the illegals who are willing to self-deport, it ignores completely both the MS13 type illegal-alien gangs, as well as illegal trafficing networks. Addressing this requires both the additional border guards and also increased funding to the FBI, DEA, etc.

      Further, by choosing to make the argument about the illegals themselves, you – and Tancredo – hand the Dems a lovely “for the children” sympathy campaign… which is *exactly* what’s happened. Worse, in Tancredo’s case, because he does come off as more concerned about Hispanic immigrants than other illegals. It’s a bad strategery; that you – and Tancredo – keep flogging it has me wondering what your real goal is.

      If you – and Tancredo – want to win the illegal immigrant problem, you – and Tancredo – are going to have to think a little smarter. Don’t mention the illegals at all – mention securing the border. Make it about MS13 and drug smuggling and human trafficing and national security and maybe even jobs and shovel-ready projects.

      Doing otherwise is a waste of breath. Tancredo has an excuse – his waste of breath pays his mortgage. What’s yours?

      Mew

      • Dave_A

        They US – due to size and terrain – has an INDEFENSIBLE border.

        Seriously, the US military can’t even secure the borders of Iraq or Afghanistan (if we could have we would have) during a war….

        The US border is many times larger, and we don’t (and won’t ) have wartime ROE. It can’t be done.

        The ‘self deport’ method solves the overwhelming majority of the problem with illegals.

        Further, by getting rid of the MAJORITY of illegals – the ones here to work – we make it possible to catch the remaining 1% with existing resources (by checking status during LEO contacts for other crimes, etc).

        The first step to solving the illegal problem, is admitting that we CANNOT SECURE THE BORDER, and to stop trying.

        • gekster

          Our officials in DC just don’t want to.
          We have laws on the books to deal with all aspects of illegal immigration, our public officials just don’t enforce them.

        • PowerToThePeople

          unless one gets real technical.

          The border can be secured although not fully. But we can make it secure to a point that the ones getting through are miniscule. But because we are unwilling to get tough, the border will remain open.

          How do we secure it? Simple.

          Make it a felony to cross the border without papers. This would cause most to think twice about crossing when they know that if caught, they do serious time. 2 years, 3 years. 5 years first offense, 8 years, 10 years second offense, and so on. All of a sudden, being in this country illegally is not worth the risk for most. But this is only a start.

          We have to take proactive measures as well. What would you do if someone entered your home without invite? Well the same should be applied to our home, this USA. It would take fewer men if fire upon was allowed. We could get into all the normal bleeding heart arguments against lethal defense, but the fact is they are breaking into our “home” and committing crimes to get in. When you add in the crimes committed after entry by some, the drug smuggling occurring by the illegals (some place it in the 6 out of 10 people crossing, it is used as payment), and the other issues, proactive defense makes sense. Not too mention the fact that they would know the risk and would have to chose to cross regardless.

          And lastly, you seize the homes, companies, cars, banks, dealerships, etc owned by people who support the illegals already here. If a person wants to knowingly rent to, employee, sell to illegals, they lose it all to the state. Suddenly people no longer want to work with illegals making it impossible for the illegals to survive here.

          Securing the border is assumed to be my most a physical effort when in fact little of it is actual physical defense of the border. We can secure it quite well, we just are not willing to do what is needed.

          • acat

            I’d still like to see hard interdiction, similar to what the Texas Rangers are up to, on much, much more of the border.

            Mew

          • acat

            Cat needs a double mocha. Stat.

            Mew

          • Dave_A

            Anyone who says it can has NO IDEA of the expense required.

            And honestly, that’s how you guys sound – a huge emotional/chest-beating response about how ‘We can do anything’…

            But no plan, no idea of the manpower required and a flawed concept of the situation….

            FIRST OFF, THE MAXIMUM ‘EFFECTIVENESS’ OF A SECURED BORDER IS 60%

            That’s because 40% of illegal immigrants never make an illegal border crossing – they come here legally & overstay.

            So we’re at 60% effectiveness for the most expensive military/law-enforcement ‘project’ in US history. 40% of the current ‘flow’ of illegals will still get in – AT A MINIMUM (since the organizations smuggling illegals will no doubt take note of the ‘legal-overstay’ route, and increase the number moving through that channel)…

            SECOND, THE MANPOWER REQUIREMENTS ARE PROHIBITIVE

            The US border with Mexico is 2,000 miles long – that’s 3520000 yards. Presuming that an attempt at physical security would require positions every 300 yds – and each position would need at least 2 men on watch, that’s 11,733 men PER SHIFT. 3 shifts a day = 35,200 on the line at any given time…

            At that point, you have the line manned – but no support elements, no one available to *do anything* about what the guys on watch see, & no chain of command. Figure a 4:1 ratio (optimistic, it’s the Feds were talking about here) for support/admin to guys on watch (I’m including response teams here), and it will take 140,800 men to try and ‘secure’ the US-MEX border on any given day….

            Congrats, that’s 7 DIVISIONS in US Army terms. And that’s without doing anything about the gulf-coast, east coast, west coast and Canadian border. Full ‘Border Security’ would require at least 500,000 – the size of the ENTIRE ARMY.

            In the Army, we don’t have 7 divisions to spare (even using the National Guard)…. Nor are you going to find enough civilians with clean criminal records, no drug-ties, and good enough credit, to staff a new agency (or augment the USBP to that level)….

            THIRD, PERPETUAL SENTRY DUTY IS MIND-NUMBING, EFFECTIVENESS-DESTROYING WORK

            The 8hr-shift thing I mentioned above? That was being generous to the pro-security side. By Army manuals, after 2hrs on duty a sentry’s effectiveness begins to degrade. After 4hrs, he’s ineffective.

            Having had to pull tower guard before, I can tell you the manual is RIGHT. Oh, and this applies weather the guard is physically in the tower, or watching a monitor screen…

            You’re going to have to ROTATE your security personell to other duties, or they will become useless…

            Not only that, but ‘You’re going to sit in a guard shack all day long’ is not a great recruiting sales-pitch for the ‘Border Army’ we’d have to raise. Forget about recruiting combat vets – You’d get something like ‘Tower Guard? Every Day? Sorry, I’m out on that one…’

            Further, it takes a very specific sort of person to be an effective border guard – the opportunities for graft & self-enrichment are endless, and you need to only recruit those who’s morals/ethics are strong enough to resist being corrupted by a multibillion-dollar organized crime syndicate just across the line…. You also have to have replacements available for those who have to be fired/jailed for succumbing to that temptation.

            FOURTH, SECURING THE BORDER PROVIDES NO BENEFIT THAT THE INTERIOR-ENFORCEMENT STRATEGY DOES NOT ALSO ACHIEVE

            If you want the illegals out, we can do this… And we can do it without the cost of 140k men stuck on a line in the desert/mountains…

            That’s where interior enforcement, secure-ID, and the ‘make them WANT to leave’ approach comes in.

            It will work. It doesn’t require pay-and-benefits for 140,000 new law-enforcement officers – or the massive recruitment incentives required to keep troops re-enlisting while assigned to ‘Tower Guard Hell’ for the indefinite future (war is preferable to border duty)….

            And the best part, it won’t balloon the deficit out of control -in fact, it could probably be paid for simply by cancelling fence-building and freezing the border patrol’s budget.

          • gekster

            we can do anything.
            I don’t share your defeatest attitude.
            Americans have done great and glorious things, and the border is nothing compared to what we have done before.
            Keep playing the ‘we can’t card’ because as an American,
            I play the ‘we can card’.

          • Dave_A

            It’s a nice emotional slogan, but it completely ignores reality….

            Theoretically, we could – if we borrowed & spent enough money, or raised taxes high enough – build the “Maginot Line MkII’…

            However, it still wouldn’t begin to approach the effectiveness of the interior-enforcement strategy, which can be done with little to no increase in government spending.

            We *could* erect a giant gold statue of Obama on the National Mall – but I doubt you’d expect RedStaters to advocate that…

            ‘Can’t’ as I use it takes COST/BENEFIT into account.

            You are advocating the MOST EXPENSIVE POSSIBLE METHOD when a less expensive and more effective method exists….

            The first step to ending illegal immigration without amnesty, is to abandon the border as indefensible, and consolidate our forces around the economy….

          • gekster

            As fara as cost’s, a major theme of yours, if we can spend endless money on stupid things, (solyndra and Obamacare and such) we can spend it on smart things.
            Tell me where we can’t protect the border.
            Cost is no object, as has been proven by various
            administrations before, when they actually wanted to do something.
            Going to the moon anyone.
            There were a bunch of Dave_A’s saying we couldn’t do that and it would cost to much then also.

          • acat

            You know, the six company consortium that built Hoover Dam….

            Mew

          • gekster

            Still goes with ‘We are Ameriacans, and we can do anything”.

          • acat

            Just like border defenses/monitoring would/will be.

            Mew

          • acat

            I’m discussing border security. Abandoning the border is about national sovereignty! That’s just nuts!

            That border security also stops illegals is a secondary effect, not the primary point.

            That you missed it and would rather point out the cost – which, if we use the National Guard to reinforce the border patrol – is not as bad as you’ve been led to believe.

            Mew

          • Dave_A

            Our national sovreignty isn’t diminished by it… Ever since we settled out the land-disputes between the US and Canada, no foreign country has seriously laid claim to our land – and Mexico learned that lesson back in 1820.

            We’re not at risk of invasion because of it – border guards with small arms aren’t going to stop an actual military invasion (not to mention that no one is insane enough to invade a nation with 3,000 nuclear warheads)…. If we *were* under threat of invasion, we’d employ maneuver warfare – seeking out & destroying enemy formations on advantageous terrain, NOT a linear defense along the border ‘just because it’s the border’…

            Also, using the National Guard is perhaps the most expensive ‘military solution’ possible. When you activate Guardsmen, you have to pay them housing allowance (because we all have private residences – Active Duty only gets housing if they’re married or over the rank of E-6), family-separation, and they accrue active duty benefits (health care/dental, leave, etc)… People who were being paid $300/mo are now drawing almost $40,000/yr in pay alone, plus a very expensive benefits package.

            Trying to use the 2-week training period isn’t realistic either, as (A) the Guard needs that time to train for their real, go-to-war mission, and (B) it would take most of that time just to hand off duties between rotating units….

            I didn’t ‘miss’ it, acat…

            I just don’t see our national sovreignty impacted by maintaining the border-policy we’ve had as long as we’ve been a nation…

            Illegal immigration can be handled other ways…

            The criminal traffic will happen no matter what we do on the border (they’ll just find other ways in), but by eliminating illegal immigration through interior enforcement, we deny them ‘cover’ and make it easier for the existing border-patrol to deal with them….

          • acat

            i.e. 1776 thru some point in .. when, exactly? When did the first complaints about illegals stealing jobs show up?
            Caesar Chavez and his union were out busting illegal skulls back in the late ’60s…
            FDR signed the Bracero program into law in the 1940s …
            The Mexican Repatriation as a result of the economic crash in 1929 is believed to have sent more than half a million illegals home …

            Regardless of when you want to say illegals became a problem, Dave_A, the fact is that internal enforcement has, thus far, been thwarted.

            Further, as you pointed out, airplanes re-shaped the nature of war and rendered fixed fortifications quaint historical artifacts…. something terrorist cells and asymmetric tactics are doing to the battlefield…. it’s no longer army vs. army, it’s now a terrorist cell vs. a city.

            I assert that a good many things have changed since the 1930s, or the 1940s, or the 1970s…. and that taking a “it ain’t broke” attitude toward the border is, perhaps, misguided.

            We don’t need a Maginot Line. We need fences and boots in some places, we need sensors and drones in others. We need to shape traffic so that it goes to the legal crossings.

            This is a national security issue, this is a law enforcement (drugs, gang violence, weapons smuggling (both directions), human trafficing) issue, and this is an illegal immigration issue.

            Mew

          • Dave_A

            Terrorists and organized crime use legal methods of entry…

            Of all the terror plots we have busted, not one involved illegal entry into the US. Several involved illegal status, but they were visa violators – not border-jumpers… Having apparent legal status makes plotting terror (or espionage) much easier. We have since made it harder to do this – but the enemy’s counter was to start recruiting Americans & foreigners already in the US legally, not to start attacking over the border.

            Organized crime? They’ll circumvent anything you build – either by technology (See semi-submersibles), or by graft. Human Trafficking happens through our ports & legal points of entry all the time…

            Trying to seal the border won’t change that…

            However, solving the illegal immigration problem will.

            As for interior enforcement, what has changed, acat, is that we now have the technology to produce secure ID documents (‘secure’ means ‘impossible to forge without the resources of a nation-state’s intelligence agency), to positively identify every person in this country, and to exclude those without valid documents from the stream of commerce.

            The current DoD ID card (CAC) is an example of this technology.

            In addition to the text/photo/hologram on the card, there is a memory chip that contains the same information plus the holder’s fingerprints for all 10 fingers, as well as an encryption key & identification certificate. Beyond this, there is a database of all valid IDs that also contains the same information stored on the chip. To forge this card, you have to not only make a convincing visual copy, you also have to obtain the encrypted data from the chip, AND plant a false entry into the database.

            If all states were to begin using this technology for their driver’s licenses & state-ID cards, we’d eliminate ID theft & document fraud…

            If you had to validate said card to get a job, open any financial services account, buy or sell titled property, or wire money… And if the IRS enforced failure to comply with said ID law the same way they do tax violations… The Illegals would be gone in a month… The ‘migrant labor’ issue WRT farm production can be handled with a work-visa program, that requires recipients to leave the US during the off-season.

            With illegal immigration gone, it would be much easier to detect and interdict other illegal activities in the border region – and it could be done with the current Border Patrol and Coast Guard manpower.

            Our national sovereignty would still be intact….

            Now, I will say that in discussing this plan with other libertarian-minded folks who want something done about the illegal-situation… Most object to it because they don’t want the US to have an ‘ID Society’ inside our borders – to the point where they’d rather bust the budget on border security and leave the interior wide open, then have to carry & e-validate ID to participate in the economy……

            I call it the ‘coconut strategy’ (hard shell, liquid inside)… The problem is, once you get past the shell, you’re free to do whatever you’d like – because there’s nothing ‘inside’ to stop you…

          • acat

            Let’s fix the damn border – including increased scrutiny at ports of entry – and then take another look.

            Mew

          • acat

            Drop off the grid, go for a walk, pop up elsewhere as someone not-you?

            You can’t. You *specifically* can’t… your DNA and biometric data are stored by the government because you served. I might be able to, but my biometric data may also be on file somewhere.

            I’m not saying this to make a point about immigration, but to show the foolishness of the straw-cocoanut argument – we’re well past the point where someone can walk into a city and assume a new identity… and therefore, we’re well past the coconut example.

            Mew

          • acat

            Uncle Sam’s Misguided Children* has an existing command and support structure, is around 200,000 people, has the necessary weapons and training, and while they’re expensive, they’re also the smallest of the services. (okay, maybe the Coasties are smaller …)

            Seems to me that, if we had the new Army divisions that were being discussed under Bush 2.0, or if we were willing to use the National Guard, we’d have no problem.

            Further to your 40% point, you’re ignoring that I’m not speaking just of the problem of illegals, but also to trafficing, whether in weapons, drugs, and human beings.

            Oh, and, your example of “a guard every 300 yards” isn’t accurate either .. the border has its’ natural choke points and open areas, like any terrain. I’ll accept it as a reasonable starting point, but you’ve not convinced me that your numbers are anything other than hyperbolic.

            I’ll note, by the way, that Tancredo’s bloviations seem to be both assuming increased border enforcement and ignoring the problems.

            Mew

            * I first heard this term for the United States Marine Corps from a brother-in-law who is one…

          • Dave_A

            Nothing destroys a fighting force like perpetual guard duty – especially perpetual guard duty in the environment of the US-MX border.

            I use ‘an outpost every 300yds’ because you guys use the term ‘seal the border’…

            Using the ‘Build a wall’ motif, you have to not only construct your fixed-defenses, but you have to man them in such a way that every inch is under constant observation.

            If you don’t, you aren’t stopping anything…

            At distances much beyond 150m, you’re not seeing much of anything without binoculars, cameras, or similar – and all those devices sacrifice field-of-view….

            Now, there are other approaches… But those just change the tooth:tail ratio (eg, they reduce the number of observers – but the reaction teams, command/control, and support requirements stay the same)…

            Also, when it comes to technology, knowing when a blimp or IR camera is looking at you can be accomplished with off-the-shelf consumer electronics (our enemies overseas know this & use it to great effect)….

            Yes, a force the size of the Marine Corps could probably seal the border if deployed to it 24/7… However, we need our Marines to do military missions, not play border-police…

            Same goes for the Army, and the Guard (the National Guard contains all of our reserve-component combat troops (Infantry, Armor, Artillery, Combat Engineers), and is organized to support overseas missions more-so than operate domestically.)….

            I discount smuggling/trafficking, because it will happen no matter what we do on the border… Unless you’re going to try and ‘seal’ every mile of coastline and the Canadian border too (and now we’re really talking budget-busting costs), all that stuff will still get in. The South American cartels build SUBMARINES to smuggle drugs into the US now… Plus there’s air traffic and the good old-fashioned secret-compartment smuggling across legal entry points…

            However, by eliminating illegal immigration INTERNALLY, without doing anything on the border, we both deny the criminal organizations the ability to blend-in with a then-non-existent flow of ‘normal’ illegals, AND free up law-enforcement resources to take action against smuggling operations, using traditional law enforcement tactics…

            Again, there’s no advantage to changing our tradtional approach to the border.

            Internal security is the key.

          • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

            It is actually a job for the Army, and before you object let me say that in a Republic as this one was originally devised by the founding fathers the only actual use for an army was to secure the borders of the nation and react to aggression.

            We have moved far away from that to permanently stationing troops to protect or coerce other nations.

          • acat

            Dave_A cited a hypothetical number to picket the border, I pointed out that the Marines, our smallest fighting armed service, is in fact that size, and has the hardware and training needed.

            Further, at one point – and I’ll wager Obama dropped it – the Bush 2.0 admin was talking about adding two divisions to the Army. Seems to me that’d be about right to backstop the border patrol.

            Mew

          • PowerToThePeople

            saw where I stated you were wrong and jumped to conclusions.

            I have never preached build a wall nor have I asked for a fence made of men. That is and would be a stupid idea.

            I simply stated a few ideas that would bring most of the invasion under control. Prison for those caught trying to enter illegally and a second offense bring much more time as would a third. Place police or military on the border with orders to fire upon adult illegals who do not turn back when ordered. You do not have to put men every 300 feet nor on every inch of border. We know areas that are almost impossible to cross and with vehicles and other top technology, less men/women are needed per foot. You also are able to decrease some of the original force once a few bodies start to stink up the border as less will be willing to chance it. And last, seize the property or business of anyone caught doing business with an illegal, period. No second chances, no buyback, you deal with an illegal, you lose it all. This would quickly eliminate most of the help the illegals currently receive.

            As to those here legally who overstay. different subject, but also fixable for the most part.

            We can secure the border and we can do it without all the leftist heart bleeding and obviously ignorant ways offered by a few idiots.

        • acat

          You assert without proof, sir.

          We deliberately took a light-handed approach in Iraq and moreso in Afghanistan .. over my objection, I’ll note .. so the comparison there is inept. Much better to look at Germany to see what can be done.

          Further, the logistics chain to Iraq and moreso Afghanistan is expensive and complex .. the logistics chain to Brownsville, TX or San Diego, CA is much, much simpler.

          Mew

          • Dave_A

            The cost to try is more than the possible benefits even under optimistic estimates.

            This is also why it was not tried in Afghanistan or Iraq – not because we were ‘light handed’ but because the folks in charge know the mission would not succeed, and had to focus their available forces on efforts that were doable.

            The ‘I-think-I-can’ little-engine-that-could story is cute for kids, but in the real world we have to recognize there are some things we cannot do. Securing the border is one of them.

            As for the example you cite – Germany (presumably during the Cold War) – that border was not ‘secured’ (unless you’re talking about Berlin & the Reds practice of killing anyone who tried to leave)…

            The US/NATO and Soviet/Pact forces were positioned along it, however the over-arching conflict (and the risk of nuclear war) kept either side from ‘testing’ said defenses to any serious degree… Had war actually broken out, the defensive bases on the border would have been abandoned (both sides would disperse their forces into the surrounding countryside) and maneuver tactics would have been employed.

            Further, what ‘works’ to defend against massive Armored formations that are looking to find and kill you, does NOT work to stop small groups of civilians who are trying NOT to be found.

            We are talking about infiltration, not frontal assault (if we look at it from a military perspective).

            And static defenses never prevent infiltration.

            Further, once again, there’s no benefit to securing the border over other, less expensive and equally effective methods.

            Finally, I’m personally more concerned about ID theft (which targets the law abiding) than I am about MS-13… Border security does nothing to improve the security features of our ID documents, nor to create an electronically-secured society.

            Interior Enforcement to the degree I’m talking about, requires these things…

          • gekster

            The first is angering the government of Mexice,
            as in if you are our friends, why did you do this.
            Like I said, we are Americans,
            and can do anything we set our minds to

          • partyof1

            built over the course of about 1600 years and bankrupting the Ming dynasty.

            And the Mongols still got in.

            And the Manchu just walked right through a gate that was opened by a general on the inside. Someone who was supposed to be protecting the empire. He let them in to destroy an internal enemy that he could not defeat alone.

            Don’t you see any parallels with our situation today?

          • Bill S

            It’s already been done in parts of CA and AZ. The bad guys just tunnel under or go over. Do a search for “border fence tunnel” and you’ll find many stories about tunnels that have been used to circumvent a fence.

            The only way to make something like this even remotely close to successful would be to build a wall/barrier AND man it with armed guards. And that would take many thousands of troops and billions to build the barrier.

            The only feasible way to reduce illegals is to reduce the demand, and that comes through enactment and enforcement of immigration laws with potential employers. If they can’t get/keep jobs, they will leave or never show up in the first place.

          • partyof1

            and that was my point also.

          • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

            Operation Gatekeeper *worked*. That’s why the radicals were outraged, and why Arizona got a flood.

            Fences *work*. We can’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good, and reject working ideas just because they won’t be 100% effective.

          • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

            You see, while the rest of the country had the Contract with America going on, in California 1994 was the year of the voter revolt against illegal aliens.

            It’s how we got a Republican Governor, Republican AG, and (eventually) a Republican Assembly Speaker that year. And how we also passed Prop 187. (The Lt Gov that year? The then relatively unknown Gray Davis)

            Clinton *responded*. With the possible three way race coming in 1996, the Reform Party getting instant ballot access and campaign finance subsidies nationwide, he had to hold California. After all, before Clinton’s 1992 win California had gone Republican in 6 straight Presidential elections.

            The Clinton administration imposed Operation Gatekeeper, the center of which was a literal fence from San Diego out into the Imperial County desert. It helped. It made a difference. It changed the flow of illegal aliens enough that by 1996 the revolt was over, Democrats retook the Assembly and weakened Governor Wilson. The Revolt was over and California Republicans have never recovered.

          • Dave_A

            Building a small amount of fence will change *where* people cross, not *if* they cross.

            Building a large amount of fence will just result in the fence being penetrated.

            You have to remove the draw, not try to block the flow…

          • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

            Fences are like washing your hands.

            They won’t get rid of all the germs but I sure would hate to be without.

            They raise the bar. Literally.

          • Common_Cents

            nt

          • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

            .

          • Dave_A

            The only thing the US really tried to fortify, was our ports & coastlines… Save for some ineffective defenses build on the US/CAN border back when the Brits were still enemies….

            And we wasted a good amount of money on it, only to find that airplanes made coastal forts obsolete (to be fair, most nations were doing the same thing – with the belief that one coastal-artillery piece was worth 3 ship-mounted guns)…

            We have never in our history, tried to fortify the Mexican border…

            We’ve invaded Mexico multiple times, including the ‘Punitive Expedition’ launched due to cross-border banditry… But we have never, ever tried to fortify or ‘seal’ the border.

            Because it can’t be done without a huge cost (in money we don’t have), and there’s no benefit to it over other methods of solving the issues in question…

          • acat

            be it in guns, drugs, gang members, sex slaves, or terrorists?

            You’ve so far diverted yourself, with no prompting from me, down the rabbit trail of “illegals” even though the post you replied to suggested that illegals aren’t the only border issue.

            Mew

          • Dave_A

            Is an issue that has to be addressed by tradtional law enforcement methods…

            Use of informants, infiltration of criminal organizations, responding to citizen tips, etc…

            These activities presently occur at all points of entry to the US… Major ports, for example, are hotspots – as are airports (both large and small) and the coastlines…

            Trying to take action against them ‘at the border’ will simply push them in other directions… The ‘security state’ we’d have to build to reduce trafficking/smuggling via blocking routes, would make the hassles the TSA creates look like a joke…

            The closes thing we’ll ever have to a solution for those sorts of problems, is an active and aggressive law enforcement community, dedicated to discovering, infiltrating and breaking up smuggling organizations.

            Illegal immigration still factors into this issue, BTW, since illegals moving into the US (again, via all points of entry) provide ‘background noise’ for smugglers to mask their activities (kind of like the Taliban blending in with civilian traffic to move weapons & wanted persons – if the civilians all suddenly ‘disappeared’, anyone who didn’t ‘disappear’ was likely hostile)…. If we make the civilian illegals ‘disappear’ then it makes it much easier to spot & interdict (or observe & infiltrate) smuggling operations….

          • acat

            It’s time we try something a little more obvious… like a massive roadblock.

            Mew

  • mikeymike143

    problem solved.

    • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

      You mean that boondoggle that shifts to the states the legitimate role of the feds?

      • mikeymike143

        you are correct when you say its the feds role to handle illegal immigration. but they arent doing their job for political reasons like obama wanting to pander to hispanics. thats why sb1070 and other state measures are necessary.

        • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

          Federalism is not a thing to be discarded when it’s convenient.

      • http://libertynews.com/ mbecker908

        requiring e-Verify and and I-9? And frankly, if you make the mandatory fines big enough, the states will be tickled pink to enforce the law.

      • Dave_A

        Is a step in the right direction…

        It doesn’t per-se have to shift the burden to the states…

        After all, it is the federal government providing the verification data…

        The only problem with EV is that it can still be bypassed via the use of forged documents/stolen identities.

        We need to take a serious look at the security of our identification documents, if we want to do something about illegal immigration.

        In a world where any teenager who wants beer can get a reasonably viable fake-ID… Illegal immigrants can easily work under stolen identities… Back in Milwaukee, there was one who stole his dead cousin’s ID (the cousin was a US citizen who died as a young child)& became a Milwaukee cop.

        E-V is a step in the right direction.

        But we need it to be verifying a real, secure ID. Not a piece of poster-board with some numbers typed on it…

        A document (State-issued of course – DL or ID card) that combines possession of the card with fingerprints, PKI certificates & knowledge of a PIN number.

    • mikeymike143

      and all the candidates opposed any type of amnesty. and they were all also in favor of e-verify and various measures for securing our borders. florida voters tend to be very anti illegal immigration.

      • westcoastpatriette

        it’s just the conniving crooks in our government who want to force cheap labor and open borders on the rest of us. Even here in Cali the polls consistently show 60-65% are strongly opposed to allowing the millions of them swarm the state as they are allowed to do.

  • rebcyy

    David Horowitz has done a good job in exposing the dirty little secret that the hard left has taken control of America’s (once) charitable foundations. He estimates the hard left now controls 100 billion dollars to finance hard left groups and manipulate the public debate in ways that promote the left’s agenda, including amnesty etc. By contrast he estimates conservative groups only have abourt 10 billion to promote their ideas.

    It is important to introduce this information into the debate on sane immigration policies.

    Even the noncommited “moderates” will resent someone trying to manipulate them because of a hidden agenda, especially if they are rich.

    Conservatives are truely the quintessentially American heroes, the little guy fighting aganst the “evil” rich and powerful, the honest common citizen speaking truth to power.

    See David Horowitz book The New Leviathan for info. on finances and to see how bad the illegal foreigner crisis is go to immigrationcounters.com. It is a reputable web site.

    • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

      Is that David Horowitz doesn’t associate with Nazi Symps, that I know of.

      • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

        David Horowitz didn’t kneecap GOP conservatives in Colorado in 2010.

  • rebcyy

    Are you trying to pick a fight with me? Or are you just trying to discredit me and marginalize me and drive me from this web site (i.e. don’t listen to this bad guy)?

    I do not abide blind bigotry. I was concerned when I first learned about accusations of “racism” leveled at Tom Tancredo. Although I knew about Tancredo for years and never found any reasonm to suspect he was a racist, but I thought that perhaps I could be wrong — unlike the Tancredo haters who never for a moment thought that perhaps they could be wrong.

    The more I looiked into the accusations the more I became convinced that he is indeed not a racist, although he does speak bluntly and without cowing to the “purity of racial thought police.”

    I did find a lot of LEFTISTS who were very anxious to put words in his mouth
    and put a racist interpretation, spin, on what, in more honest times, would have been understoood as spoken.

    I have defended Tom Tancredo, whom your ilk have determined absolutely must be a racist (no argments allowed). So then, by your standards what does that make me? Will you and your purity of racial thought poliec soon be coming after me? And what aobut the huge, yes huge, number of people who LOVE Tancredo? What will be done with them?

    I have been in the fight since Barry Goldwater (another absolutely, positively, racist,as decreed by the LEFTISTS’ purity of racial thought police). I have seen one good and decent conservative after another destroyed by left wing smears and fabricated scandals, often based on charges of racism.

    I will be damned if I will sit idle when an old warrior like Tom Tancredo is smeared and marginalized and purged by your (what the hell is your problem)types.

    I can not believe that I am forced to confront this racist accusation crap on this web site. For 48 years I have been attacked and smeared from the LEFT. I have learned to ignore that. But it is really hurtful and difficult to cope with such attacks from what is supposed to be the right. Do you know that you sound exactly like the hard left?

    “Once your have lost your good name,how do you get it back again?”

    • gekster

      other racists.
      If the shoe fits.
      And please do find another website.
      RP still has some up where you will fit right in.

      • aesthete

        My disdain for Tancredo is second to none, but has he actually said anything explicitly racist? I’m reluctant to tar Tancredo as a racist on the count of an association with Buchanan alone. His policies are bad enough; can’t we oppose them without bringing race into the mix?

        • gekster

          http://www.examiner.com/article/politics-tancredo-s-racist-tea-party

          Still, make up your own mind.
          I’m on the fence but leaning.

    • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

      As Dan McLaughlin puts so well, we judge a man’s vices by his friends, and his virtues by his enemies.

      The Buchanans are Tancredo’s friends. I judge.

    • http://libertynews.com/ mbecker908

      Based on your posting history, you’re incapable of doing research or understanding basic points of logic and reasoning.

      Again, I would invite you to go to infowars. You and Alex Jones are birds of a feather.

  • rebcyy

    Refer to and start at the post, rebcyy 10 July, and read forward.

    I feel compelled to reply because some people would interpret my silence as an admission of guilt. I absolutely, emphatically deny being a racist. I am tired of repeatedly being forced to defend myself.

    For the record, David Horowitz also has been accused of being a racist. Horowitz has used the term “racial McCarthyism.” In these times that term is very appropriate.

    Let me see if I have this right: According to gekster (Diary) of 11 July, you must be a racist if you do not think that a racist is a racist. Wow, what a pathetic linguistic pretzen, and I am accused of not thinking logically. Of course I know what he is trying to say, but space is limited so let us not waste time on innaties.

    I am not accusing anyone of anything. I do not presume to know what is on peoples’ minds when they accuse Tancredo of racism. But — for a very long time the hard left has used the charge of racism to destroy honorable old conservative warriors. Don’t you Tancredo-is-a-racist types feel just a tiny little bit of doubt when you find yourselves on the same side as those who hate conservatives’ guts?

    When Tancredo left Congress in 2008 the ACU (American Conservative Union) gave him a life time rating of 97.2 %. For about 13 years he has been fighting for conservative principles. If a man like that is not entitled to a presumption of innnocence( lacking any solid proof of guilt ),who among us is safe from being ostracized when the first accusation of racism has been made? Twice now I have been called a racist/Nazi on this web site, for defending Tancredo.

    For those who honestly want to be fair, how about letting Tancredo speak for himself? Go to Town Hall, “Smears at CPAC Tancredo,” and for a statement about Pat Buchanan go to Courage in America, search Tom Tancredo and read the article, The real bigots….

    In the face of extreme provocation, I am trying very, very hard to be civil; it is hard because some of you do not deserve civility.

    • gekster

      You are the only one supporting Tancredo here, and you are right,
      and all of those opposed to Tancredo are all wrong.

      Ok, I got it now.

  • rebcyy

    Mark Steyn in his new book “After America” spends a lot of time talking about the changing demographics of the US and Europe and the negative — no, the destructive consequences of drastic, sudden ethinc changes. Hey Neil and minions, what do you think? Do you think Mark Steyn is a racist like you have accused Tom Tancredo of being?

    I do not know the mind of the Tancredo-is-a-racist crowd, but I know that, as commonly used, the label of “racist” is a verbal weapon used to de-legitimize and isolate the ideas of the accused. I.e. don’t listen to him (politically correct phrase, that person”). He (she, it) is evil, shun (that Person) him. From that point forward all thinking, all debate is to stop.

    Apparently too many “conservatives — Tea Party” people do not have intellectual intregity and the moral courage to think independently from the years of Social Studies propaganda, that tax payers like me were forced to pay for, in our public “schools” system.

    Touchy, feely — you all.