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Has the New Great Depression Started Already?

Paul Krugman has just declared the onset of another Great Depression. To him a Depression is characterized by a long-term deflationary trap, but that’s not the reason Depressions are to be avoided. Depressions are bad because of long-term unemployment, which tears at people’s lives and at the fabric of society. So far, I’m with him. After all, to the best of my knowledge, I’m the first one to have used “Great Depression II” in print, back in autumn of 2007, when the stock market hit its all-time high and RedState readers responded by beating me up for bashing the Bush economic record.

Krugman claims the paternity of the New Depression in the name of the Keynesians. He says that it’s been triggered by the policy errors of the Europeans, who refuse to extend fiscal stimulus, and of the Republicans, who refuse to allow Congress to funnel more money to state and local governments. He’s going to be eating out on this for the rest of his life, because the long-term economic weakness facing us is the real thing, and his statement that we caused it by not stimulating enough will never be falsifiable. (When the crisis started, he was still insisting that only WW2 created enough government borrowing and spending to end the Great Depression.)

Does Krugman honestly believe that demand by state and local governments is enough to end the deflationary pressure caused by shredded balance sheets in the wake of the ongoing housing bubble? State and local governments do not invest or create value efficiently. The only thing that will realistically happen if we pump up their finances is that they’ll continue to pay public employees enormously high salaries and benefits. This won’t create the demand that Krugman wants, because the public employees who won’t need to be fired by Arnold Schwarzenegger and David Paterson will step up their saving rather than their spending. However, that’s really not bad at all, because balance sheet repair among banks and individuals is the real medicine that will end this prolonged economic weakness.

But if we really think the solution is to transfer cash balances from bond-market investors to private individuals, then why do it as Krugman demands, by feeding money from the Federal government to state and local governments? That would unfairly benefit public employees much more than private employees. Wouldn’t it be more equitable, not to mention effective, to just give everyone in the country a two-year income and payroll tax holiday, and pay for it with expanded deficits?

(I can hear Krugman now. He’s saying that the states and localities won’t just use their booty to avoid firing unaffordable, surplus workers whose value to governments comes primarily from their political activism. He’ll say that the states and localities will suddenly go off on a tear of infrastructure construction. To that, two responses: First: have you ever seen political officials try to create economic value? It takes a lot of blind faith to suggest that this is a good idea. And second: Japan actually did this. Didn’t help them in the slightest.)

And yet: what of those bond markets? Krugman (and Geithner, for that matter) is entirely willing to run the risk of a future credit crash by the US. Looked at from a market perspective, the question boils down to this: if we expand public borrowing to levels beyond all imagining, then are we *guaranteed* to have an economy that’s productive and dynamic enough to pay the real interest on the borrowing and to keep rolling it, for the next T+30 years?

The answer to that question depends on two things: First: can we grow enough in real terms to outpace the borrowing? (Keynesians say Yes, Axiomatically, because the spending itself is an investment. Anyone with direct business experience will be deeply skeptical of that.)

And second: will interest rates remain as low as they are now, to ensure that our borrowings remain affordable? To this, Krugman says Yes, Definitely, because rates are low now, and there’s no evidence investors will change their minds. Anyone with direct capital-markets experience is shaking his head at the deep delusion from which this argument is woven.

Beyond this, there’s a third point: America and the other developed economies are aging. This point is usually extended to become the idea of structural entitlement growth (which certain Republicans are deeply deluded to think we can mitigate). But more directly, aging means reduced productivity on the part of many workers. This alone is enough to make me suspicious of the argument that we can fund enough growth with borrowed money to get out of trouble.

It’s just not wise to borrow more than you can realistically hope to pay back. At the macro level, this means a certain amount of austerity. Let’s call it a Depression if we must, but let’s recognize how potentially dangerous it is to try to prevent it by maxing out our credit cards.

I’m in favor of continuing to use transfer payments to mitigate the horrible evil of long-term unemployment. But I think it’s frankly stupid to try to create a robust economy on debt-fueled public spending.

This post first appeared at The New Ledger. Follow me on Twitter.

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COMMENTS

  • http://www.dcworksforus.com Kenny Solomon

    …… in very early November of 2008, but wasn’t officially recognized until January 20th at 12 Noon Eastern time…………… Oh wait…… Economic/Financial Great Depression…….. Sorry…… I was thinking on different lines.

    Good to see you back here Mr. C..

    Private sector – it’s all about the private sector getting out from under the iron-spiked jackboots of the administration….. an administration many of us think are hell-bent on going beyond a new great depression.

  • texasgalt

    is driven by his political allegiance. The Dems ARE getting good at one thing: making claims that can be difficult to disprove. I’m talking about “jobs saved” and excusing stimulus failure by saying there still wasn’t nearly enough spending. And darn the Europeans for running out of money to waste.

    It’s not selling and Krugman’s influence is headed for the dustbin of history.
    Good riddance.

    This is cruel sounding but 2 years of unemployment transfer payments? Sorry to say it . . . . this is enabling people not to seek employment.

    • Brian Hibbert

      Even though it fits with Democrat policies, I think he really believes what he writes. He wouldn’t jeopardize his reputation otherwise.

      • Sundayjack

        But the real problem with Krugman, as this blog knows only too well, is that he certainly DOES wrap his economic writing around his politics. Google the search term “Krugman vs. Krugman” brings that point right under the klieg lights.

        This was a great Monday morning read. A true keeper. As a complement to this one, Greg Mankiw has a real nice essay at National Affairs where he discusses, among other things, the great stimulus benefits of tax cuts vs. gub’mint spending. Citing none other than Christina Romer, who apparently doesn’t buy into her own research (my words, not his).

      • RedBeard

        Such a man’s opinion carries great weight indeed, just not quite the way he intends.

        If a Keynesian is in favor of a philosophy or program, it’s most likely wrong and bad for the country. If he’s against it, it’s probably the best course of action.

        So thanks go to Paul Krugman for providing such well-focused insight in support of wrong, dangerous, and self-destructive things. It’s the Nobel prize winner equivalent of, “Hey, Bubba! Hold my beer, an’ watch THIS!!”

      • http://christopherrenner.blogspot.com Christopher Renner

        “Sort of” because there’s an intellectual Grand Canyon between his pop writing (especially NYT columns) and his academic writing.

        Other economists I’ve read (regardless of political affiliation) take Krugman’s academic work seriously, but his columns are a complete joke as far as economic analysis goes. All they’re “good” for is giving a pseudo-Keynesian justification for the political interference in the economy that the left wants to do already.

    • bay0wulf

      Ummm Ok so … I worked for 44 years and paid UI (Unemployment Insurance) from every one of my paychecks. Some of my old stubs even have it as a separate line item.

      I’ve been eligible for Disability for 30 years (never took it) I’ve been eligible for Unemployment in the past (didn’t take it)

      The Economy is so screwed up at this point that I can’t even find “side work” which I have used to get by with in the past. Jobs (employment) are extremely difficult to get … even if you’re 100% “able”.

      I don’t care that it “sounds cruel” but if you can offer an idea where to get a job today, I would like to hear it. because I have been “seeking” … just not “finding”. I was heavily involved in two major industries and they are both flatline at the moment. (Construction Materials and Trucking)

      • severed2009

        If you get desperate enough you will come up with something. If you cant find work you can live off your savings, mooch off family members (Nature’s safely net), or accept charity.

        Anybody who really wants to work can find a job, so you must not want to enough. You might feel or think that you do want to enough, but in terms of economics you have decided to remain unemployed. Your illusion that you really want to work is merely you kidding yourself or something else psychological, because anyone who really wants to work can find a job.

        It is like the Superbowl. Anyone who really wants to go to the Superbowl can find a ticket. If the stadium holds 100000 people, then at most 100000 people really want to go; the rest are just kidding themselves. That is what economics tells us. Actually, fewer than 100000 really want to go, because some people, wives and such, will get in who really dont care or who even would rather be somewhere else.

      • texasgalt

        I am very sorry for your difficulties. I mean that sincerely.

        The fact remains there are a LOT of people who can take a job right now and are not doing it. . . because of the extended safety net or because they think they will eventually find a job at their old salary. (doubtful)

        I have had a job open for FIVE weeks that pays about 32k annual (with health benefis). OK, sorry, it is not a big paying job, but it is honest work with a path to something better. I’ve had a few people look me in the eye and tell me they make almost that much on unemployment.

        As an employer, here’s how I see it: If a person is out of work for much more that 9 months or so without taking some sort of work- I don’t care if it as a stocker at Wal-mart- I am questioning that person’s motivations or attitude.

        That doesn’t mean there are not some people with difficult circumstances who just can’t find work. It’s far worse in some areas than others, but up to 2 years of unemployment? Why not make it 3? It’s really expensive and is a net drag on the economy.

        My guess from the beginning was it would take a long time to get out of this recession, depression or whatever it is. There was just too much financial damage and dislocation. Expectations need to be adjusted and the government needs to stop “helping.”

    • severed2009

      If everyone seeks employment very diligently, this activates the Job Fairy, who comes down and sprinkles Job Dust on the economy so that new jobs spring up or heretofore unfilled jobs come out of hiding,

      The Job Fairy is invisible, of course, and is shaped like a giant hand (with wings attached to the knuckles). She hasnt been around much lately, but if we all click our heels and clap our hands and believe with all our might . . .

      • texasgalt

        Forget the fairy tales and heel clicking. If you seek, you will likely find. Unfortunately, it may be for $10-$12 hour . . . or you might be luckier.

        For those who are waiting for 60K or better, it might be a long wait. It might be forever for the bottom 10 percenters who were dumped first.

        I will, however, grant you that fairy tales exist about the good life to which people imagine they are entitled. I want. I need. I deserve.

        Uh, nope, and especially not in this economy.

    • chabsentia

      We are in this mess because of the bursting of three bubbles.Historically we have only had one bubble such as the Dot.com and the economy recovered in 18-24 months. Thsi time we had three. From 1982-2000 the Stock Market increased ten fold and the earnings of the companies that comprise it only increased three fold. A bubble happens when economic realities dotn support it. The other two were the personal debt bubble which started in the nineties and the Housing bubble that was made possible by the Clinton Administration and Congress in 1999 so that people who couldnt afford a House were allowed to buy one. It was made worse by Barney Frank who allowed Fannie and Freddie to guaranty more laons so the bad lenders could write even more of them.This proposed Financial Regulation Bill does not include Fannie and Freddie which is again thanks to Barney.The next bubble will be the Federal Debt bubble.The accumulated Federal Deficit doubled in eight years under Bush,however, the democrats have been the majority party in both Houses since January 20,2007 and since Congress is responsible for the Budget then they get credit for the last two years of it.Obama and the Democrats in the last eighteen months have tripled it agin and we can tahnk the people who elected Obama and even more Democrats in 2008 because the gullible, un-informed and mis-informed bought the “last eight years” which was not true. If you count all the UNEMPLOYED then the rate is 17% and has been that way since August of 2009.. I warned people to listen in 2008 and they just dont get it. It is most likely too late and you neeed to bend over for the next leg of this double dip “W” recesssion and possibly a depression because of 17% unemployment, job creation not being addressed with three bubbles and one more yet to come.

  • txgho1911

    Even though the premise is leaning heavily on historically tragic relations to spending. We could maybe see this economy recover if we could get the gov out of industry and banking. Pull the rules and guarantees.

  • uhangtight

    When the Dems took control of the house and senate. The New Great Depression started Jan 2010… after 3 years of Dems controlling house and senate and 1 year after Dems having the white house, too.

    We’ll see what We The People have to say after Nov 2010 to know if we will be able to pull out of this Depression.

  • johnt

    At least then governments didn’t have such huge debt structures, there was less idiotic faith in solutions centered on empty manipulation of currencies & shell game spending, and the people, citizens, were not viewed as milk cows to bear the burden, victims to the insanity of crazed leftists.
    I realize there were exceptions to the above, but compared to today, and the ugly filth currently governing us, if that’s the word, things were not as bad structurally or politically.

    The garbage in the WH is already starting his tough guy “kick ass” talk. “Tough times ahead”,” calling the bluff” of those who decried deficits, & other lying and fantastic crap. Great, we are entering a depression and we have a nasty lunatic as president.
    LitttleLiberals and a vicious media will love it all, mass sado-masochism has come out of the closet big time.

    • wennejunk

      They weren’t just viewed as milk cows – they actually had their own cows. And farms. and crops. and small businesses. and lots of local barter/interdependence relationships to help each other get by.

      People were more self sufficient back then, only a (relatively) small percentage were incapable of providing for themselves without government assistance.

      Today our population is composed of people who a) wouldn’t recognize a cow if they needed one, b) couldn’t milk or butcher it if they could ID it and c) couldn’t start a fire to cook it if they succeeded.

  • jackhammer

    Everyone, including Krugman knows that the liabilities of virtually every government worldwide are in no way able to be met….be it pensions, debt or whatever….so inflation is the cowards way out, politicians don’t have to say they can’t afford their promised largesse…they can just inflate out of it.

    Deflation might have negative consequences as well, but a period of deflation leading to a new wage and cost norm could definitely be what is needed to build economies on stable footing. Public employees, with their relative job security and such should be earning less than their private counterparts. A Teacher should be a job of 40k a year or under….they work till 3 in the afternoon and have more than 3 months off….and America has a mediocre at best high school system.

    Drop 20% of the teachers, put some serious cost controls in the fireman and teachers pay, to avoid the horrendous overtime scams and seniority exploitation that rob us of our tax money…..let these people see what the private sector is like, and get back to some reality….

    • The_Gadfly

      I had some good ones, a very few bad ones, none of the very bad ones (although my brother had one of these), and mostly competent ones. I don’t know what their salary ought to be any more than I know what a stock broker’s salary ought to be. I doubt you do either. Teachers, except for the bad ones and very bad ones work long after the 3pm bell. If they are good they are spending time at home working on lesson plans, grading tests, and most especially reading essays. You are right that the summer vacations ought to be factored in, but that also needs to take into account that some teachers work through the summer as well.

      Teaching as a profession needs fiscal discipline, but I greatly suspect much of the overspending can be attributed to administrators, the teaching professions equivalent of governmental cog in the machine. I recall one of the best teachers I ever had leaving to take an administrative job because it paid better, and he was about to have kids in college. The teaching profession lost a gem that year. He was one of the few math teachers I had who actually made me enjoy the classes, and that’s saying something.

      • jackhammer

        stock brokers are part of the private sector, and that is why the market determines their salaries.

        teachers in the public school system, and all those other jobs that Krugmans “Stimulus” is supposed ot maintain are working for us, taxpayers. If the schools were all privatized, and the salaries and BENEFITS and conditions were determined by the market, and not insanely politically connected unions, then I would not begrudge them whatever they can earn.

        And I meant fireman and policemen above…in MA there were hundreds of cops who earned over $200k through overtime and targetted abuse of bylaws and union seniority, to the detriment of taxpayers….not to even talk of the pensions.

        Chris Christie is absolutely right on this….and it is a sad day when public service employees milk taxpayers for all they have.

        • JoeG

          I’m a board member for a charter school. We hired 4 teachers for next year due to growth. We are only one of three schools in the entire state that hired. Most are laying off about 5% of the workforce.

          We had 100′s of highly qualified, experienced teachers apply for those four positions. If market forces were in play, the salary would be far less.

          I also don’t understand why teacher’s colleges are even open for business. None of their graduates will get jobs until more of the boomers retire.

          • izoneguy

            A substitute teacher. She has tried for years to get a permanent position. Every year she goes to hiring open houses. The crowds get bigger every year and the age ranges are from 22 to 62.
            She has just quit thinking about a full-time teaching position.
            She teaches swimming lessons in the summer and has many tutoring clients during the school year.
            I don’t know about the influence of the NEA in Texas but at least in our kids school they still say The Pledge of Allegiance and American flags are not banned.

  • PubliusII

    the economy it seems that the Government needs to do several things:

    First, acknowledge that the “stimulus” spending is really only stimulating the Government, not the real economy. In the 1930s the Government spent money, and at least the public received useful infrastructure improvements. As I understand it, most of the stimulus $$$ now is merely paying salaries of Government workers, so we aren’t even getting useful bridges, etc.

    Second, clarify the uncertainty about tax and healthcare policies. At this point, there is complete uncertainty regarding income tax policy (i.e the Bush tax reductions are scheduled to expire), estate tax policy (i.e. there is no estate tax this year, and next year estate taxes are reimposed at 1980s levels) and healthcare (i.e. no one really knows what the regulations will require of employers and individuals). Today, all of these matters are up in the air, and no one knows what the Government’s final decisions will be regarding any of them.

    I can’t imagine how any business can plan, given the legal and regulatory uncertainty. This is clearly encouraging people in the private sector to delay investments that could grow the economy.

    Third, the financial sector has shifted its emphasis from traditional capital formation to speculation. Perhaps people will get angry at me for saying this, but I don’t see how that speculation benefits the real private economy. I don’t think that the financial “reform” bill fixes this problem, which seems to require reasonable limits on who, in reality, assumes the risk when financial firms (such as Goldman Sachs) speculate.

    • The_Gadfly

      that it can’t “stimulate” the economy, it can only create conditions that are conducive to private sector growth. Of course before it can do that, it needs to recognize there is a difference between the private sector and the public sector, a distinction neither Keynesian economists nor the politicians they have enabled for the last 70 years are incapable of making.

      IF they can do that the rest of your recommendations follow logically. I would rank getting the government budget in order above the items you list. Sadly, before the conditions for solid, sustainable economic growth are met, even with my re-ordering of priorities, we will need to complete all of the items down to the last one on your list. So yes, it is going to be a long, hard slog.

  • wolfgang

    …the rest of the world’s nation’s were in various stages of recovery as Roosevelt and his “Brain Trusters” tried to remake American Capitalism into a mirror image of the Soviet Union while also in the process of trashing one major American industry after another. Toss in Treasury Secretary Morgenthau’s Undistributed Profits Tax which initiated 1937′s “Little Recession Inside The Great Depression” and you have the story of why it took the United States twelve years to come out of an ordinary two to three year economic downturn. In 1929 the sum total of the Federal Government’s effects on the US economy were insignificant. On December 6, 1941 the sum total of the Fed’s economic effect on the economy was enormous. The enormous growth of the Federal Government over the immediate years prior came out of the mouths of, off the backs of, and off the feet of the ordinary American citizen.
    Past is prologue.

  • Alberta

    Im simple. but when the world was on a gold standard, wouldn’t deflation be the norm? You cant make new gold, (I guess you could find more to increase the money supply, but there is still, in theory, a finite amount) so when people became more productive, you would have had to deflate. Prices would fall, incomes would not necessarily rise.

    Unless Im wrong.

    I dunno, Kill the Fiat, bring back gold standard, take away the politicians toys.

    Good article.

    • Herodotus

      I am going from memory here, but I seem to recall that commodity money such as gold, silver, etc go through both inflationary and deflationary periods. These periods are determined by the relative supply and demand of the commodity money.

  • http://www.imperfectamerica.com imperfectamerica

    He may be right about a depression coming, but he’s fundamentally wrong about the reasons. Nowhere in his column does he mention the bane of economic growth, confiscatory tax policy. In addition, he bemoans the fact that the Greeks and Irish are seeking to plug the holes in their sinking ships. He would prefer they continue spending like drunken sailors until the sun rises again. He obviously fails to realize that at the rate those countries (and not far behind, ours) were leaking taking on water (read unsustainable debt) they were going to end up at the bottom of the ocean regardless. At that point it doesn’t matter if the sun rises or not, in deep enough water no light makes it through anyway…

    http://www.redstate.com/imperfectamerica/

  • Old_Crow

    Until the overhang of bloated federal, state, county, and town governments are cut, the economy can not and will not recover.

    The stimulus was wasted since it allowed the states to postpone making necessary budget cuts. Now the states will have to go back and make even deeper cuts while the private sector is still struggling.

    Short term, this will be very painful. I’m starting to see construction sites shutting down again here in NY. Many are just being abandoned. Projects that used to have 5 bidders, now have 30.

  • severed2009

    The coming depression is unavoidable, and Krugman’s attempts to avoid it will only delay it. If we downsize governments, then each one of us is left to rely on our cleverness, industriousness, and connections to avoid falling victim to the downturn. The downturn will hit winners not at all and losers severely enough to produce misery and sometimes death for them and their families.

    Under these circumstances private security will be the major growth industry, especially since we are shrinking governments. But private security jobs do not really produce anything, and their increase does not increase the amount of goodies and make a society richer.